CXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2216 posts, RR: 4 Posted (6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2657 times:
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So here we are at the final race of the 2012 season in Sao Paulo. At stake is the driver's championship. Vettel leads Alonso by 13 points, so:
Vettel 1st to 4th - Vettel wins title
Alonso 4th or lower - Vettel wins title
Alonso 1st and Vettel 5th or lower - Alonso wins title
Alonso 2nd and Vettel 8th or lower - Alonso wins title
Alonso 3rd and Vettel 9th or lower - Alonso wins title
In P1 and P2, Hamilton had been the quickest driver, followed by Vettel and Webber. Button was fourth in P1 and Massa fourth in P2, while Alonso was fifth in both sessions. But that could account for nought as rain is forecast on Sunday.
I've no doubt of Vettel's talents in the wet, but with wet weather comes the increased likelihood of a safety car, so a 30 second lead could turn into a 0.5 second lead in a flash. A badly timed pitstop could prove disastrous. Anything can still happen.
Hopefully, Vettel becomes F1's youngest ever triple world champion and only the third driver in F1 history to win three titles in a row.
CXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2216 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2565 times:
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Qualifying's been and gone, and the McLarens seem to be unstoppable. Not to worry, Vettel doesn't need to win the race to win the title
With Maldonado's penalty, Alonso moves up a spot on the grid and will start 7th, while Vettel starts 4th. Should be an interesting race, especially with the rain being forecast. I can't wait!
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1309 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2431 times:
Quoting CXB77L (Thread starter): Hopefully, Vettel becomes F1's youngest ever triple world champion and only the third driver in F1 history to win three titles in a row.
Well your hopes (and mine) became a reality!!!!
It was a thrilling race with the WDC changing hands several times depending on the conditions. Both drivers drove very measured races, being careful when they needed to be and always keeping their eyes on the bigger picture.
Vettel has now joined the most elite group in the F1 history books...with more to come I'm sure!
scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 11438 posts, RR: 50 Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2368 times:
Well congratulations to Vettel.
However, IMHO, he is a VERY lucky boy. How he didn't get taken out completely on the first lap is a mystery to me. Alonso overachieved again, but it wasn't enough to take the WDC.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4839 posts, RR: 20 Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2346 times:
In this race
- It rained. Ferrari was praying for rain.
- Alonso got moved up the grid on the clean side because of the Maldonado penalty
- Vettel gets wedged between his team mate and the pit wall at the start
- Vettel has a collision in lap 1, putting him in last place and severely damaging his car
- The damage is unfixable (i.e. not the front wing)
- Massa pushes Webber wide, allowing Alonso to overtake him
- Alonso basically requests a safety car on the radio, gets it, which moves him from 1 minute to 1 second down to P1
- Hamilton crashes out
- Hülkenberg gets a penalty that puts him behind Alonso but in front of Vettel
And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.
Anyway:
Three time consecutive world champions:
FANGIO - SCHUMACHER - VETTEL
moo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3614 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
Would Alonso really have savoured a WDC win that came about through his opponent being taken out by the midfield rather than a race to the finish line?
Alonso got his race, and in the end he was beaten.
ncfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2332 times:
Quoting moo (Reply 6): Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 5):
He didn't, it was not a yellow - it was a slippery surface warning, subtly different and carries no penalty.
This was tweeted by Martin Brundle a few minutes ago.
Thats good news, it would have tainted a win for Alonso had anthing have come of it.
Vettel thoroughly deserves the title, but Alonso has driven superbly to get a less capable within a whisker of the title. More of the same next year please.
flood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1132 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2318 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 9): And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.
Apparently. Vettel was also fortunate to have an extra pit stop - which they then totally botched, possibly due to the radio problems the lucky chap was having
Anyway, fantastic drive by Vettel and a well-deserved third title. A great race to end a great season.
CXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2216 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2289 times:
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Quoting moo (Reply 6): He didn't, it was not a yellow - it was a slippery surface warning, subtly different and carries no penalty.
Thanks for the clarification. We didn't get to see the replay of that particular incident on the coverage here in Australia, so I had been worried that there would be a protest of some sort.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7): It was a thrilling race with the WDC changing hands several times depending on the conditions. Both drivers drove very measured races, being careful when they needed to be and always keeping their eyes on the bigger picture.
It was indeed a thrilling race. Nail biting stuff. I wasn't sure if I could stand so much excitement over two hours ... but I came through
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 7): Vettel has now joined the most elite group in the F1 history books...with more to come I'm sure!
Sure there will, but I doubt it'll be next year, actually, because this year Red Bull have shown signs of vulnerability with their lack of straight line speed. I think McLaren will be the team to beat next year.
Quoting flood (Reply 12): Apparently. Vettel was also fortunate to have an extra pit stop - which they then totally botched, possibly due to the radio problems the lucky chap was having
A lot has been made about Vettel's "luck" and Alonso's lack thereof, but I think it's just bulldust, frankly, when the entire season is taken into account.
Quoting flood (Reply 12): Anyway, fantastic drive by Vettel and a well-deserved third title. A great race to end a great season.
It has been a great season. I can't remember the last time we had so many different winners in a season. The fact that Williams - my favourite team - had an unexpected race win makes it all the better for me
Vettel was very lucky his car wasn't destroyed in his accident (which was his of own making). Did Vettel deserve to win the title? See below.
Quoting moo (Reply 10): Would Alonso really have savoured a WDC win that came about through his opponent being taken out by the midfield rather than a race to the finish line?
I bet he would, as would any driver in that position. The driver with the most points at the end of the season deserves the title, regardless of how those points are accumulated.
stealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5448 posts, RR: 48 Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
Gracious in defeat... far be it for the self centred folk at the Scuderia
Alonso-
Quoting Autosport: "The championship was not lost here," said Alonso. "The championship was lost when [Romain] Grosjean flew over my head [at Spa] or when Vettel surprisingly only got a reprimand after qualifying in Japan.
Domenicali-
Quoting Autosport: "Watch the facts," he said. "Zero points in two races so we have done what we have done with 18 races. The others had 20 – and the points were over 20 races. These are facts, not words."
Get over it guys you lost the championship because you were three points behind when the Chequred Flag fell at Interlagos. When the flag falls at the last race is the only time championship points count... your job is to have more at that point... you failed.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
Wonderful Schumi!!! He gets to take his Silver Arrow back home with him. So well deserved.
We will be missing him on the racing tracks but I know for sure that we will be seeing him again!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1309 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 9): And Vettel still is the "VERY lucky" one? He actually has to die on track to get any sort of credit, right.
Excellent summary!
Yes, Vettel is "lucky" in the sense that his race wasn't worse than it was (after all, that recurrent alternator issue could've re-appeared and finished his race completely) but to claim that Alonso (or any other top driver) did not receive outside help is simply rubbish. Alonso failed to score in two races? Vettel failed to score in three. Alonso didn't have a top car to compete with? Well, the Red Bull wasn't the top car in many races this season.
What we learned this season, though, is that both drivers tried and did extract the most out of their machinery (simply look at the gigantic gap in points between Vettel and Webber or Alonso and Massa). Both drivers were lucky in their own way but at the same time they both drove brilliantly when it mattered during the season. Most drivers are either lucky or good...World Champions are both lucky and good.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 13): Sure there will, but I doubt it'll be next year, actually, because this year Red Bull have shown signs of vulnerability with their lack of straight line speed. I think McLaren will be the team to beat next year.
I suspect that you might be right...McLaren does have a compelling package and it was the car to beat for most of this season (the botched up pit stops during the opening rounds robbed them of a potentially better result). Unfortunately for McLaren their best driver left, leaving the team with a large gulf in capability between its drivers next season.
Bill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8326 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2018 times:
Quoting moo (Reply 20): And the gearbox reliability issues robbed them of quite a few points in the end...
Had Hamilton finished in Singapore it would have added a different dynamic to the championship. But no sense contemplating what ifs.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 19): I suspect that you might be right...McLaren does have a compelling package and it was the car to beat for most of this season (the botched up pit stops during the opening rounds robbed them of a potentially better result). Unfortunately for McLaren their best driver left, leaving the team with a large gulf in capability between its drivers next season.
Sometimes I think McLarens system driven environment does them more harm then good.
Quoting sudden (Reply 21): This is more embarrassing then fun. An F1 driver having to do this means your out of business dude!
Look at what happened to Rubens and Kamui has nothing on him.
27 sudden: Bottas and Maldonado confirmed for next year http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/11/14133.html And Montezemolo is at it again! Why not simply
28 MadameConcorde: Following your logic and looking at the 2012 F1 WDC standings, there is a good number of more "has beens" than KK including the only 7 times F1 world
29 sudden: If you want to try and throw something at me, then try to do it properly. Schumi is great has been driving around in his own shadow. He finally leave
30 MadameConcorde: ... as if you knew anything about it yourself. I was already hanging out at Le Mans while you wasn't even born.
31 moo: Poor poor MadameConcorde, all her favourites are turning out to be drivers no one wants to employ any more... Can't say much else about Kobayashi tha
32 moo: That doesn't give you authority, it just gives you age
33 sudden: Trust me, that's nothing to be proud of.
34 MadameConcorde: I like all F1 drivers. When was the last time you heard me saying anything bad about any or all? I may get saying something bad about their sponsors
35 sudden: I think you need to look at your history on Anet, and you will for sure find several examples. With Kamui going pretty fast. All the hype surrounding
36 na: Didnt see the race, as I was in my own on the Autobahn somewhere near Hamburg at that time and unhappily scored a point ;-( Sounds like Vettel drove l
37 na: Hello?????? Everything he says in this article is right, so why your hatred? And he doesnt say he will fire someone, only that the mistakes made in t
38 moo: I never said you did - however, it is clear from these threads that you have favourites...
39 EZEIZA: Hey ladies & gents ... I'm still recovering fron Sunday's race. Simply amazing. Could not have asked for a better race even though the result was
40 moo: The no-points score in Malaysia was due to Karthikeyan (who received a 20 second time penalty) - if he had remained in 4th position, he would have sc
41 EZEIZA: Fair enough .. what about the other two? The math is pretty straight forward. Just with Grosjean's stunt the title would have gone to Alonso.
42 moo: And without Sennas stunt in Brazil, Vettel might have finished a lot higher than 6th... Without Grosjeans stunt, Hamilton might have stayed in conten
43 MadameConcorde: Well it seems that the poster knows more about F1 than anyone else, including Montezemolo himself. Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, an attorney by trade,
44 EZEIZA: ehh ... no, Vettel found himself in that position because he had a crappy start in the first place.
45 sudden: And again, if you want to throw anything at me, try to at least be constructive. Eh, hello!? It's the same story every time Ferrari loses out. Result
46 moo: Ahh so we can speculate about Alonso, but we can't about Vettel? That's fairly ridiculous, and makes further discussion pointless.
47 MadameConcorde: Senna lost his seat with Williams. Will you call him a "has been" the same you did with KK? http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/11/14133.html
48 moo: If no one wants to employ him, then yes. Next question?
49 MadameConcorde: Fernando Alonso is the driver of the year the same as Ferrari are the team of the year. They did as much as they could this season and the mistakes w
50 moo: Opinion. Nothing more. Your point is? Because I'm failing to see one.
51 na: I also always thought he´s one of the best Italian managers, and I have not seen anything changing that opinion. He started his career in the positi
52 EZEIZA: Of course you can. But you can't speculate on facts. Fact 1. Vettel had a bad start, which caused him to find himslef in the middle of the pack. He p
53 sudden: For sure it has but Ferrari is very eager to let media know. Get over yourself dude! Just look at the history when they have performed bad.
54 sudden: Would they replace Senna if he delivered? Well, there's your answer.
55 moo: Except you seem to be quite free with the term "fact". Vettel didn't cause the incident, so he "put himself at risk" just as much as Alonso did when
56 EZEIZA: Had Vettel kept his position, not lose it, he would have not been there. He had a crap start and it could have cost him the WDC. Fact. Ok, do the mat
57 moo: That's a better comment and more honest. ... while you seem to be totally ignoring mine Alonso lost more points through his "slow car" than the "lost
58 na: You try to say its a bad thing to fire someone after mistakes have been made. But Ferrari did did what others also did and do if performance is bad a
59 EZEIZA: Alonso had is slow car get the max amount of points possible in every race. In fact, he did get points in every race, except for the two races where
60 moo: Simply because it's not a fact - you make the very simplistic assumption that nothing else in the season would have changed if Alonso won some points
61 Charles79: Please read the excellent summary posted by user racko in reply #9...Vettel did not have a team mate willing to play the wingman role, rather he has
62 moo: Not as perfectly as Nelson Piquet Jnr, let's not forget Who benefitted from that little crash...?
63 EZEIZA: Maybe because they are the only two races where Alonso did not get any points. Look, the car was poor depending on how you see it. It was not fast, i
64 Rockson: I'm on an iPad right now, so I can't link directly to the video, but scroll down to view a slow motion video of the situation. http://forum.planet-f1
65 moo: Hence my earlier points - Alonso missed out on more points due to his early lack of speed than he did by missing two races. I can't believe how many
66 EZEIZA: Well, let him by or not, it was an overtaking maneuver. However that green flag does stir things up a bit. Seems like a huge screw up by the stewards
67 scbriml: Look at the in-car video from the BBC's website. It appears to clearly show Vettel passing under flashing yellow lights and completing the manoeuvre b
68 moo: Far too late for anything to be done, the race results are no longer provisional - the stewards didn't act on it during the race, no one appealed afte
69 scbriml: You appear to be wrong there. Did you read the BBC article?
71 moo: I did, and that wasn't what I was talking about - the race is now 4 days old, celebrations have happened, fans have moved on, the season is over in e
73 Rockson: Marshal waving a green flag before he passes Vergne:
74 flipdewaf: It is known that there was a green flag waved from this position on the previous lap before the incident, there is no lap counter in your video we ar
75 KiwiRob: What's Le Mans got to do with F1, apart from it being a motor race it's utterly different.
76 sudden: Don't worry, she is trying to have a go at me. The only thing she manage to do is to make herself look even more uneducated on the subject.
77 racko: God Ferrari and its Fans are pathetic. Trying to manufacture controversy where there is none. "Green flag? Who cares? He must have done something wron
79 moo: Stranger and stranger. Ferrari are seeking "clarification" of the legitimacy of the pass from the FIA, but it is being stressed that that is not the s
80 MadameConcorde: This was the first year I ever got to a race. I was a 7 year old. It was very impressive. I'd take that car any day. 1958 Olivier Gendebien Phil Hill
81 scbriml: Is that even the same lap? Also, what's the in-picture showing? That's looks like the first lap when Vettel had his accident.
82 moo: Autosport have dug up an interesting story from 2007 concerning a comment from Alonso http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63581?source=mostpop
83 stealthz: After careful analysis of the season the fact that the 2012 WDC 1st loser.. er 2nd place title goes to Alonso is indeed the fault of Romain Grosjean!
84 KiwiRob: Also wonder what you mean by the cars at the time were far superior, a modern day Le Mans prototype like the Audi R15 would out run, out corner, use
85 racko: How the hell would they be able to show replays of the first lap on the world feed (bottom right) if this were the first lap? I guess we can add "tim
86 EZEIZA: It's useless to argue woth you. If a car/driver are consistent and are able to score points in every single race, speed becomes secondary. The fastes
87 moo: Thats a very naive view - consistency is only worth so much, as a consistent 5th, 6th, 7th place isn't going to get you much when a fast, inconsisten
88 sudden: Ok guys, Time to stop beating this dead horse, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
89 CXB77L: What are you suggesting? If the marshal who waved the green flag was wrong, therefore Vettel must've overtaken in a yellow zone, right? So why should
90 sudden: You just added more fuel to the fire with that one.
91 EZEIZA: and speed too. Who had the fastest car this year? (honest question). If it was the RBR, great, but Alonso we all agree was not the fastest ... nor th
92 racko: Nobody messed up. Nothing went wrong. There was a car parked in turn 3 (the corner leading into the straight). That's why there were yellow flags ther
94 EZEIZA: There's obviously controversy if they have to come out and rule it officially, don't you think?
95 CXB77L: That's not an easy question to answer. Red Bull struggled with pace at the beginning of the year. It was only towards the latter half of the year tha
96 stealthz: Sorry Ezeiza, the only controversy is in the minds(and media releases) of FA & LdM. The same FA trying to win a WDC via a post race protest once r
97 EZEIZA: Thanks for that (it's more or less what I had in mind). So this brings back the question asked before; who had the best car? The fastest car wasn't e
98 racko: If I produce a bogus video stating that Vettel was using an afterburner, then when asked about it by the press the FIA states "no he didn't", do we h
99 Bill142: FIA seems to disagree with Ferrari http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104644
100 CXB77L: What does it matter? Who had the best car this season isn't a something that can be answered in simple terms, although I guess one can argue that sin
101 scbriml: I asked what the in-picture was showing because it looked like the first lap. There really was no need for your snarky reply.
102 stealthz: Seems even the Scuderia have... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104655?source=mostpopular Must be pretty cut and dried, they have been kn
103 EZEIZA: For the sake of debate, nothing more (we have 4 months to kill until next season ). Because everyone, including Ferrari, have been saying that the ca
104 na: And we should be happy that way. Even as a Ferrari fan since the days I saw Niki Lauda win live at the track I would not have liked it if the Scuderi
105 stealthz: As if!! In a press statement that flip flops between altruisim and typical latin self interest! He repeats himself several times... Still not sure wh
106 sudden: I think Bernie did good in calling it a joke. Naturally Di Montezemolo had to hit back. I think this is funny to be honest. http://www.autosport.com/n
107 moo: Nice to see that Alonso knows how to show humility... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20579507 I can't believe the number of articles and interv
108 CXB77L: HRT will no longer be part of the grid in 2013: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/12/14143.html I won't miss them. They've been nothing but
109 sudden: In all fairness, Massa would never been able to do what Alonso did with that car this season. Alonso seem more at ease with everything then Ferrari d
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