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10 Worst Cars Of All Time (A Survey)  
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 11301 times:

Since everyone seems to enjoy discussing their "favorite" car, their "best ever" car, here's about 1,500 people who are discussing their "worst ever" car, all of which is in reply to an article written to "reveal" the "10 worst cars of all time" (or something like that)

I have spent the last two hours reading the replies, and it's a fantastic combination of, "funny", "sad", "ridiculous", (and a few more adjectives !) ( but worth every minute of the time spent !) In fact, I'm still only up to about 300 (or so), so I'm going back to laugh some more.

It points something else out too; namely that this isn't the only place where people don't always agree with each other.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11381...ars-of-all-time.html#disqus_thread

The auto writers who conducted the so-called "survey" to "identify" the "10 worst cars of all time" contend that the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec; needless to say, this has not set so well with many current and former Aztec owners.

It will be fun to hear what our resident car experts say about all of these peoples opinions. ( Hope you enjoy it as much as I have)

Charley

P.S. Now if I can just get the damned link to work...........


Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
264 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11264 times:

The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please. Pontiac died because it offered nothing substantially worthwhile that couldn't be gotten in another GM product, minus the G8 of course.

As for my vote... Pinto. The car that can't.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11248 times:

Let's see: (in no particular order)

Pontiac Aztek
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine
Cadillac Cimarron
Cadillac Allante
Ford Edsel
Ford Mustang II
AMC Pacer
Chrysler TC
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland
Aston Martin Lagonda (cool looking, but flawed)
Renault LeCar
Yugo
A lot of Chinese made cars (those crash test videos are terrifying)



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11233 times:

Not an expert by any means, but my parents did get some of these cars.

They bought a Vega brand new in 1974. Since I was a youngster at the time I thought it was pretty cool, but even still its shortcomings were obvious to me. It was underpowered, and had an aluminum block that the owner's manual warned you that could overheat with as little as five minutes of idling. It also 'pinged' no matter what kind of gas we used. It was already rusting within 2 years, until its stay with us ended after a tree branch fell on its roof. My dad got the insurance money but still drove it with a plastic bag as the rear windshield for a few months till even he admitted defeat.

The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have) and my Dad bought a late 70's Mustang II, which did made the list.

If I was making the list, I'd limit it to cars that were mechanical failures and not include cars whose main flaw was how ugly they were.

My first boss at my first hourly job (after the paper route) owned a mid 70s AMC Pacer, which was cool as Wayne and Garth's Mirth Mobile, but was butt-ugly otherwise.

From what I'm told the Aztec is OK mechanically, but yeah, it's butt-ugly.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11213 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Let's see: (in no particular order)

Nice list, but where are the Pinto's, Vega's, and ALL of the GM X cars? Oh, and let's not forget, the newest members of the list, the Smart line up and the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad.



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11202 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

There was a guy in my neighborhood whose first car was a Yugo. The funny thing was he had a stereo system in it that was worth more than the car was so he had a car alarm on it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

Very true. They designed some good vehicles, but that's where it ended. When it came time to build them, that's when it went all pear-shaped. I'll let Jeremy Clarkson sum it up with one single car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGJty_Rdp1U

The entire episode is quite interesting and you see some similarities to the troubles in the US auto industry:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc7CtwKVuZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gnL3msYD_9M


User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11195 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber

Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11194 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Smart line up and the Fiat 500

For the market and use they are made for they are both pretty good and reliable cars. Their styling is only considered weird in the US.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2999 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 11194 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

The best way to make a Yugo go was to hook it to a tow truck.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have

There were some conspiracy theorist that thought the Murrah Building bombing was actually caused by a Pinto backing out of a parking space hitting the side of a Chevrolet CK pick-up.

You have left the Chevrolet Vega out of the list so far, what a mess that was.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

Rudolf Diesel is still laying in his grave laughing at that attempt to make a gasoline engine a diesel.
For all intents and purpose GM set the concept of a US built diesel automobile back 50 years or more.

Okie


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 11167 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Nice list, but where are the Pinto's, Vega's, and ALL of the GM X cars?

The Pinto was a bad car, but it's reputation is even worse than it actually was. As far as the Vega and X platform go, you could probably make a "worst car" case for most of the compact cars designed in the US from the 1970s and 1980s. Even into the 1990s there was a lot of crap.

The Chevy Aveo probably belongs on the list too.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
Oh, and let's not forget, the newest members of the list, the Smart line up and the Fiat 500.

They aren't really that bad, they just don't appeal to mainstream American tastes. The Smart is kind of overpriced too, although for the price of either I'd just as soon buy a used Mustang and a bunch of gasoline. I'd take a spin in a 500 Abarth though.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

I'm not convinced it isn't gone yet. After all, we do still have the Chrysler 200 and Cadillac XTS. Seriously, Cadillac came out with another interim model to replace their last interim model.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).

It's like Nissan is trying too hard to be quirky and overtly Japanese. The little Japanese car is not awful for a model or two, but you cannot have an appealing lineup with that formula. Especially when Japanese cars in the US are largely bought by people who buy cars like they are appliances.

Quoting lewis (Reply 7):
Their styling is only considered weird in the US.

I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design, since the original was never sold here. That alone puts it at a disadvantage compared to the Mini and New Beetle, although those are both more upmarket cars.

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
For all intents and purpose GM set the concept of a US built diesel automobile back 50 years or more.

That's very true. My grandfather was a brakes engineer for many years and he went to his grave believing automotive ideas that had long since ceased to be true. He thought British cars were all unreliable and diesel engines were awful. One misstep and perception is hard to change.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13070 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11146 times:

An interesting list and pretty much spot on as to cars sold in the USA.

Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare. I had a 1978 Dodge Aspen that was 1 year old when I got it and it was a total dog. Awful carburetors. Engine hoods that could pop open (happened to me at 50 MPH), weak front suspensions, all kinds little problems that nagged your wallet and patience. They also had fenders that rusted out in a few years prompting a recall.

Other 'worst' cars in term of bad design, bad engineering, rust/corrosion, ugly, bad workmanship:
Any and all Fiats sold in the USA until the 1980's.
Any and all Renault or designed models made in the USA (Alliance/Encore based on the 9, the 11, and others)
A number of early Japanese (pre early 1970's) and Korean models (Hyundai to the mid-1990's, KIA until about 2000) in the USA; The worst was the about 1967-68 Subaru 360, one of the only cars ever condemned by Consumer Reports, a car like the size of the BMW Isetta with a 360 cc engine, brakes that fell apart and way too small. Still all those brands got past their bad starts and are successful today.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11123 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I'd take a spin in a 500 Abarth though.

Have driven it when I was back in Europe. It is pretty impressive for a small car, a lot more than you would expect.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design

True. I personally prefer it to the Mini as Fiat has done a very good job modernizing the design while keeping it as close as possible to the original lines.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11109 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 11):
Have driven it when I was back in Europe. It is pretty impressive for a small car, a lot more than you would expect.

I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure I'd buy one. It's only about $1400 cheaper than a V6 Camaro, $3000 cheaper than a Scion FR-S, $1700 less than a Focus ST and $2000 cheaper than a GTI. All of those are more car than a 500, and that's before you consider used cars.

Quoting lewis (Reply 11):
I personally prefer it to the Mini as Fiat has done a very good job modernizing the design while keeping it as close as possible to the original lines.

The only style problem I have with the 500 is that the wheels are too small and cause it to resemble a golf cart. It needs bigger wheel wells and then fill those up to get a better, more muscular look. Just because it is a city car doesn't mean I want it to look like a city car.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11101 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):

I'm sure it is, but I'm not sure I'd buy one. It's only about $1400 cheaper than a V6 Camaro, $3000 cheaper than a Scion FR-S, $1700 less than a Focus ST and $2000 cheaper than a GTI. All of those are more car than a 500, and that's before you consider used cars.

Cars like the 500 Abarth don't make much sense in the US. In Europe, a fast and bigger car with all the taxation that goes on big engines will easily cost almost double what the 500 does. Hot hatches and small "tuned" cars with smaller engines (below 2lt) are the fun cars that most Europeans can afford to buy and run with all the taxes and the fuel prices. I agree, in the US there is no reason to buy a car such as the Abarth, unless you really like the design or the small car/performance combo.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11096 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Hot hatches and small "tuned" cars with smaller engines (below 2lt) are the fun cars that most Europeans can afford to buy and run with all the taxes and the fuel prices.

Yeah, leave it to Euronannies to ruin the fun. The price of a Camaro in the UK is eye watering. It costs about $20,000 more than a similar US model.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
I agree, in the US there is no reason to buy a car such as the Abarth, unless you really like the design or the small car/performance combo.

For my money I'd just look for a Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S and tune the hell out of it. Or find a nice used Porsche or M3.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11095 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Chevy Aveo probably belongs on the list too.

Used to be a Daewoo that why - Kalas it was called (in Britain anyway).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
It's like Nissan is trying too hard to be quirky and overtly Japanese

I agree on the styling, the only one I can marginally accept is the X-Terra - and of course the gorgeous GT (not fussed on the 370Z). However, they are boringly reliable and Nissan's fortunes have turned around incredibly in the last few years under their new Brazilian CEO and you can not deny such success would not be possible unless the products were quality enough - this is not the 1970's anymore when the BL stuff sold.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

   The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJfbunHVuc



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2686 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11088 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare.

Which was replaced by something even worse: The "K" cars. The Dodge Aries, Plymouth Reliant, Dodge 400 and Chrysler LeBaron. They were cheaply made with plastic interiors and body panels which did not align properly. Also the engines were very noisy and had a bad reputation for head gasket and timing belt failures. I used to work for a Chrysler/Plymouth dealership and I could tell you first hand these cars were pieces of junk.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 11080 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Used to be a Daewoo that why

True, but some of GM's domestic efforts weren't much better.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
and of course the gorgeous GT (not fussed on the 370Z).

The GTR is a bit too portly for me. In real life, it is not a small car at all and I'd frankly rather have a 911 or, even better, one of those new SRT Vipers. But that's just personal preference. The Z looked alright initially, despite being a bit bulbous but later iterations have become more muscular on the plus side, but the gains are outweighed by increasingly busy designs. The Nissan boomerang light thing just doesn't work for me.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
However, they are boringly reliable and Nissan's fortunes have turned around incredibly in the last few years under their new Brazilian CEO and you can not deny such success would not be possible unless the products were quality enough

They are, but I don't see why Nissan feels the need to try and offset the dullness of their products with styling. It's okay for your conventional normal car to have conventional normal looks. For most customers that is exactly what they are looking for. You don't need your midsize family sedan to be edgy, it's just weird and disjointed.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Ambassador

I believe these are still being produced in India. At least they were as of a few years ago.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11570 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 11043 times:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec

I have never owned an Aztek or even driven one, but I think they are cute. I don't understand the hatred of the Aztek. I am not fond of the HHR but I don't hate it like how people hate the Aztek. The new Fiat comes close, though...

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
Yugo
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo
Quoting okie (Reply 8):
Yugo

I drove a Yugo once. Never again.

I have a book of the worst cars ever. One thing about the Yugos said something about "When civil war broke out in Serbia, the people had the good sense to burn down the Yugo factory first."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Smart is kind of overpriced too

I have seen them here for $99 down and $99 a month, so.... no. They are not for road trips with the family. Which I love.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 11021 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):

But, a lot of people fell for their charms and bought them up like In and Out Burgers. They were a slight step up from the Mopar turkeys of the 70's. And lest we forget the God Awful Omni/Horizon Twins, Fugly and problem laden.
Don't forget most if not all US cars from 1972 through the mid to late 70's (pre-downsizing) were saddled with all the myriad of environmental pollution controls. Look under the hood of almost any US car from 1972 through 1975 and it looks like a spaghetti maze with all the controls. While (in the case of the big three large cars) remained bloated but the performance tanked and gas mileage went into the toilet.

I had a 1974 Mustang II Ghia Coupe. The inside looked like a mini continental interior but, even the V6 was underpowered and gas mileage for it's size was less than impressive. And then when they shoehorned the V8 under it's hood that presented problems. Sadly the Mustang II was based on the Pinto. This car had the alternator from hell...kept crapping out.
My dad swore off of Ford products the rest of his life because of the fun with this car. I wish I'd known how to fluidly drive a stick back then. The Pinto and Mustang II were really cars mated for manual transmissions. This was the height of the myriad of pollution controls and even the V6 with Automatic and A/C was a turtle off the block.

The Blue Oval wasn't the only carmaker to spin off "small cars" off their economy line. The General dressed up the Vega Chassis and spun off the not bad looking but mediocre at best Monza and the other divisions had their versions.

Also, the General took the ancient Nova platform and gussied them up with the Buick Apollo, Olds Omega, Pontiac Ventura and yes the Caddy Seville. However, I must give GM/Caddillac credit for really distinguishing the first generation rear driver Seville. I got to ride in them and drive them and for mid to late 70's American Autos they drove and felt even better than the hippo sized DeVilles. The only way you knew it's heritage was Nova was the same hood design. But 99% of Seville drivers didn't catch that one.

Also in mediocre to drek cars were the Ford Granada and Fairmont which were up marketed and spun off into such marques as the Lincoln Versailles. Not a bad looking car but the first few model years it looked too much like a 4 door Granada.

Some others:

In No order
Ford LTD II 1977-1979
(At least the T-Bird spun from them were distinct) At first I hated their design but, as I get older am liking their looks. However, if you went with the base Bird from that era it still felt, rode and drove like the lower end LTD II's. Sluggish lack of feel steering, space shuttle power brakes that hurled you forward and seats that were a torture chamber on wheels if you had to drive or ride for more than an hour or 2.

AMC Gremlin, AMC HOrnet, AMC Concord DL-Retro for all the wrong reasons (a turd to drive) Air Conditioning that was weak and wimpy like it was designed in 1962. AMC Pacer

1979-1993 Mustang, A Fairmont made into a pony car   
Pontiac Aztec
REnault Le Car
Renault, Fuego,Alliance
Breezeway Mercurys, Out of proportion wierd looking hippos, However, the 1958-1960 Continental Breezeway Convertibles
are quirky but I appreciate their design as I get older.

Most of the Mercury line from 1958 through 1960, the dark ages of auto styling.

The Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler "Forward Look Cars" from 1957 thru 1959. Cool looking even by today's standards but, they were in such demand that build and quality took a nosedive for Mopar who never seemed to get their act together in regard to quality and finish. My dad had a Plymouth Suburban 1957 Forward Look wagon that whenever it rained and in Maryland we get a lot of rain was a pain in the ass to start. I was little but, I remember my dad having to spray silicon on the contacts to get the finned Manatee to start. These cars also had a lot of leaking and rust problems.

I'm glad the Corvair did not make the lists at least not here; Ralf Nadir unfairly made that car the center of his crusade. Actually, it was a pretty good car for most.

The unhappy marriage of Daimler with Chrysler: The Mercedes of that era were plagued with poor build, quality and even handeling. Uncharacteristic of MB. Many of the Benz of that ilk were Chrysler technology which was a step down for Mercedes.

Jaguars were nice looking but, in many cases were nightmares when it came to reliability.

Though not a car but, the Grummand Flxible transit busses of the early through late 70's had that uncanny characteristic to break down at the same time. And their air conditioning systems were plagued with problems.

Also the last transit bus GM made originally with fixed windows were known for their Air Conditioning to do an "Anna Nicole" on the hottest days. There were cases where drivers broke out the windshields to get some air!

And of course it was laughable that Detroit's answer to the Japanese fuel thrifty good quality cars were the Pinto, Vega, and Gremlin back in the 70's.   

Fiats back in the day became so bad they were known as Fix It Again Tony! And thus left the American market till
recently.

Design and looks wise such Nissan abortions as the Cube, RWD/AWD Pathfinder that looked like a 1950's Rambler wagon.

Suzuki: They were mediocre at best and gave up at least for now on the US market. No great loss.
Also Mitsubishi which used to be one of the prime Japanese imports have lost face here in the USA. For example each successive generation of the Eclipse has taken a nosedive in reliability.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 11005 times:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):

"Worst" in terms of reliability or looks?
Of the cars I've owned, the most unreliable car was one of the best looking cars. I used to own a 1987 Chrysler Lebaron convertible. It was beautiful. Red with charcoal grey Corinthian leather seats, high-gloss simulated walnut grain wood applique, fully digital electronic instrument panel with verbal alert system. Black convertible top with glass rear window with defrost, concealed headlights and vertical chrome grille.
The problem was that the little 2.2 liter turbocharge 4-cylinder engine was under-powered for such a heavy car.
All of the fancy gadgets were very reliable. The problem was with the powertrain and other mechanical issues. Everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong with that car. I had to replace the heads, transmission (twice), water pump, alternator, fuel pump, radiator, spindle, main axle, and the entire front frame (busted for turning a corner too fast).

Other than that, it was a good looking car and I was able to pull a lot of babes with that car......

http://www.theonion.com/articles/aft...y-figured-out-how-to-impres,11226/



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 10985 times:

These lists are sort of silly, and though they often include some famous bombs, they rarely actually touch on the worst cars ever made, nor does any car made in America in the last 20 years really come close to that, certainly not the Pontiac Aztek. Most of these "worst cars" lists are made by a beat writer being paid very little who really doesn't know much about the subject. It's easy to poke at a car like the Aztek or the Cimmaron, because they honestly weren't very good, or were sort of silly, but worst cars ever? No.

You wanna hear about some bad cars? Well gather 'round, it's story time.

I'm not going to rank these, just describe some of the issues. It's fair to say that the American market is very demanding, and some of the world's worst cars were never sold here, nor would they have even gotten close.

Lancia Gamma. This 1970s flagship was meant to replace the Flaminia and the Flavia, and top Lancia's range in the new era of Fiat ownership. Lancia had built very high quality cars until 1969, but often at a loss, since they had no economy of scale and were turning out cars in a sort of semi-artisan way that they always had. The Gamma and Beta were supposed to bring Fiat's economies of scale to bear on Lancia's great designs and good execution. In reality, what happened was Fiat's dulling influence and a series of calamities, the most serious of which had to do with the Gamma's engine.

The Gamma was designed to be a luxury car, but Fiat already had a BMW Bavaria-style car with a powerful V6, the Fiat 130, and a big family car with a four, the 132. So the gamma was designed with a really big flat four, just like the Flavia had been, but the Flavia's engine was smaller (and alot better...). Similarly, an aborted merger with Citroen had seen the sedan get a fastback, like the Citroen CX would later have. The gamma's flat four handicapped it in the market from day one - as did the styling. It simply wasn't taken seriously against the BMW, Opel, Mercedes, and even Citroen and Rover competition. But worse was yet to come.

The Gamma's cambelt also drove the power steering pump, and if the steering was turned to full lock when the car was cold, the belt could jump, resulting in a nasty collision of valves and pistons that would put your brand new luxury ride in the shop for weeks, with a substantial bill. Eventually, this was fixed, but not before word got out. Even the addition of a very pretty Pininfarina Coupe and the rust and quality failings of the smaller Beta could not save the Gamma from being remembered as Lancia's most dyfunctional product.

Standard Gazel. What's a Standard Gazel? Our Indian friends know. It was a license-built copy of the Triumph Herald made in India from the 1960s until 1978. It had all the flaws of the Herald - though it did have the crazy camber of the real wheels tamed by using a different rear suspention, shakes and rattles galore, virtually no rust resistance, and to boot it was heavier and slower. At some point, the Gazel was turned into a four-door car and even a four-door wagon - the Triumph Herald was only a two-door, resulting in a very, very, very cramped little car with tiny doors. In 1980, India's car market was dominated by long obsolete European designs produced locally like the Premier Padmini (1964 Fiat 1100) and Hindustan Ambassador (1956 Morris Oxford). This car could not even compete very well in that market.

Zaporozhets 968. First off, totally unrelated to the Porsche 968.   The little Zapo was a Russian microcar originally in the mold of the Fiat 600, but this later model was inspired by the Chevrolet Corvair, at least in terms of how it looked. It was slow, unreliable, and deadly in a high speed crash, although you probably would have to be hit by something else moving at high speed because these little cars needed a tailwind to hit 55 mph. Later models had some safety improvements, but this very basic car was not even close to as good as the west's version of a very basic car, the Citroen 2CV.

Moskvitch/Izh 412. Another Russian superstar, this 1960s design was aging even when it was new, and it wasn't very good then. Poor to drive, poorly made, devoid of any creature comforts or features you might want, it's sole merits were that it was fairly hardy in winter and the waiting list wasn't that long. Today best remembered for the antics of U.K. racer Tony Lanfranchi, who raced one in a series who's parameters were set by price. It was one of the cheapest cars you could buy in the U.K. (yes, they did export them), and for its price it was reasonably powerful (when pitched against cars like the Fiat 127 and Honda Civic).

Vanden Plas Allegro. A plush version of British Leyland's Austin Allegro, this pricey turd replaced the rather nice Vanden Plas 1300, even though all pretension of these being real luxury cars was basically just a visit to the land of make believe. Poor dynamics, poor quality, odd styling, and terminal rust brought many an Allegro to a not-entirely-undeserved early grave.

The Copper Chevy. It's a little unfair to put this car in this company, because it came out in 1922, and back then automobiles were still developing. Knight Sleeve-valve engined cars would be available for another 18 years back then, and that's a technology that is today all but forgotten. The Copper Chevy didn't have a Knight engine, rather it had an air-cooled engine with some copper internal components, which were supposed to dissipate heat. The engine was designed by Charles Kettering, who also invented the electric self starter - not exactly a lightweight. But sadly, it didn't work, and very early on the cars started cooking their engines. Chevrolet recalled every single one it could find, and only two complete cars survive today. The experiment was a disaster for Chevrolet, though they recovered quickly in the boom times of the 1920s.

As I said, it's a little unfair to lump this car in with really bad modern cars, because technologies were still developing then, and metallurgy wasn't what it is today. In 1923, front-wheel brakes were considered radical.

Alfa-Romeo Arna. Nowadays, when the Dodge Dart shares components with the Alfa-Romeo Giulietta, things are pretty good with merged DNA like this. In 1983, however somebody had the brilliant idea of putting Alfa-Romeo mechanical pieces into the shell of a Nissan Cherry. The resulting car was pretty much the worst of all possible worlds - dull, boring, rusty, and unreliable. The Arna was replaced by the 33, which still had all kinds of quality problems, but at least it was all Alfa.

Renault 14. Of all these cars, this is the one I like the most, and it feels bad to bash it, but it was not a good car. It's a very strange machine, aimed at the VW Golf and cars like it, but oddly avant garde in a very 1970s kind of way. An early ad campaign likened its shape to that of a Pear, and as you can guess, things started to go Pear-shaped pretty quickly for this little car. It quickly gained a reputation for being rusty, unreliable, and sometimes hard to start and possessing an electrical system possessed by demons. Nor was it by any means a fast car or the most efficient car around. It was just very unusual, and even disco-era French car buyers had limits.

The Monza cars. What if you could have a small car like a Vega, but with real power? How cool would that be? what if it looked exotic? In the late 1970s, GM felt that meant a Vega with a V8 engine, or at least a big V6, and styling that resembles the Ferrari 365 GTC/4. GM recycled most of the Vega running gear into four quite attractive cars - the Chevy Monza, Pontiac Sunbird, Oldsmobile Starfire, and Buick Skyhawk. The H-body cars were quite possibly the worst cars GM ever made - and because they looked so great, there were tons of them piling up in scrapyards in the 1980s as they gradually fell apart. The Vega chassis wasn't designed for the 305 V8, so cars like the Monza Spyder, which promised alot of performance with all that style, usually had vibration problems and all sorts of driveline issues. The manual transmission cars had tons of problems, and all of these cars were plagued by spectacularly poor quality. Interestingly enough, the plants where these cars were made were later reformed into some of GM's best plants, but that was far in the future back then. Today, these cars are mainly preserved by drag racers - who find the small platform very useful. But as regular transportation, they were very bad indeed.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):

I believe these are still being produced in India. At least they were as of a few years ago.

He's not referring to the Hindustan Ambassador, but to the Austin Ambassador, part of the "Princess" line of British Leyland mid-sized (1800/2200) cars, introduced in 1975 (though the Ambassador was part of the final revision of this line, introduced in 1982).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):

I doubt many people over here even realize that the Fiat 500 is a retro design, since the original was never sold here.

Actually it was, from 1957 to 1962. And it's larger sibling, the 600, was sold here from 1955 to 1967.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:27:27]

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10981 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

Not true, Jaguar XJ-6 was a fine car, as were the Triumph 2500, Dolomite Sprint, Stag (once the engine malidies were sorted), Mini, Rover SD1, and the original Range Rover.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad

The 500 is an excellent car and a smash hit for Fiat, they can't build them fast enough

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Aston Martin Lagonda (cool looking, but flawed)

The only real problem with them was the way to advanced for a small British car company electgrics, once they sorted them the car was fine, now they are worth a bit of dosh and very hard to find.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
REnault Le Car

Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
It needs bigger wheel wells and then fill those up to get a better, more muscular look.

Then you need to buy the Abarth version, problem solved.



User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10968 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have a book of the worst cars ever. One thing about the Yugos said something about "When civil war broke out in Serbia, the people had the good sense to burn down the Yugo factory first."

Actually I'm pretty sure we bombed it during the 1990s.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have seen them here for $99 down and $99 a month, so.... no.

That's a lot for what it is. You'd be better off buying a slightly used normal compact for that price.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
He's not referring to the Hindustan Ambassador, but to the Austin Ambassador, part of the "Princess" line of British Leyland mid-sized (1800/2200) cars

You're right. Hindustan knocked off a different bad British car to make the Ambassador. The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina. Suffice to say, the Indians got the better end of that deal.

And while on the subject of bad British cars that were made into worse models elsewhere long after they should have been scrapped, I think I should nominate the Paykan. When the world was screaming for more Hillman Hunters, the Iranians stepped up to the plate.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Actually it was, from 1957 to 1962. And it's larger sibling, the 600, was sold here from 1955 to 1967.

I never knew that. Shows how much market penetration they managed.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Not true, Jaguar XJ-6 was a fine car, as were the Triumph 2500, Dolomite Sprint, Stag (once the engine malidies were sorted), Mini, Rover SD1, and the original Range Rover.

There were some winners in there, but BL's batting average is overall rather poor. Granted, American car companies weren't doing much better at the time. The SD1 wasn't so hot though, especially the uglier, 135 horse V8 American version. And it's hard to say how much credit BL should get for the Mini.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
The only real problem with them was the way to advanced for a small British car company electgrics, once they sorted them the car was fine, now they are worth a bit of dosh and very hard to find.

I saw a story a few days ago about one that was trashed by Sandy. My first thought, and about 3/4 of the comments, was that now they can finally do the thing the right way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Then you need to buy the Abarth version, problem solved.

Even on the Abarth the wheels are proportionately too small. The whole wheel and tire package needs to be larger, or alternatively, chop the top to make the proportions look better to me. Granted, it's not really Fiat's fault. Most city cars do have that too-tall, golf cart like look to them.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

Sounds like The Backstreet Boys.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11049 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

You're right. Hindustan knocked off a different bad British car to make the Ambassador. The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina. Suffice to say, the Indians got the better end of that deal.

In 1956, the Morris Oxford was actually a fairly decent, if very conventionally British, car. It was not exactly in it's first flush of youth, but it wasn't a "bad" car. In 1980s India it was hopelessly outmoded. The Oxford that became the Ambassador, however, was phased out of production in 1960, more than a decade before the Marina debuted.

In the 1980s, Hindustan added an upmarket companion to the Ambassador with the Contessa - itself a license built version of the discontinued 1972-1978 Vauxhall FE Victor. That car was actually pretty good when new - but the Contessa was in production until 2002, long after it had been passed over by more modern alternatives. It was also a big and pricey car for most people in India. It is, however, well liked by some there because of it's 1970s looks, which appear a little like Holden HQ (in fact a kind of distant relative) or 1970s American cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

I saw a story a few days ago about one that was trashed by Sandy. My first thought, and about 3/4 of the comments, was that now they can finally do the thing the right way.

As Rob said, it wasn't necessarily that it was a bad car, it's just that a tiny outfit like Aston couldn't make such a high-tech car work reliably back in 1976. Much of the computer related stuff, which would be complex even by 1990s standards, had to be replaced with conventional items, which added to it's already prodigious weight (it makes a Fleetwood Brougham look svelte) and delayed the car. What was cutting edge in 1976 was oddly dated by 1985, although to be honest the car's radical style held up pretty well in the 1980s, like the Lotus Esprit. Even after some of the early bugs were worked out, there were still electrical issues every now and then. A story I've been told by somebody who was present includes a test drive with an older British couple where the car, with it's voice warning system, began speaking loudly in Arabic instead of English and would not shut off. The cars were programmed with several international languages because the majority of Lagonda buyers were in the middle east, particularly Bahrain, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:46:21]

[Edited 2012-11-27 23:48:23]

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11040 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Cimarron
Cadillac Allante
Ford Edsel
Ford Mustang II
AMC Pacer

I disagree with these entries. Those are all good cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
I'm not convinced it isn't gone yet. After all, we do still have the Chrysler 200 and Cadillac XTS. Seriously, Cadillac came out with another interim model to replace their last interim model.

Agreed. What is up with Lincoln with their new line of alphabet soup cars? The MKS as a Town Car replacement? Are they really serious or just playing a real bad joke?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11113 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
The Morris model was eventually replaced by the Morris Marina.

Again another car that sold in the millions yet it's reputation was trashed by Top Gear, you gotta stop basing you opinions on what Clarkson has to say.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
And it's hard to say how much credit BL should get for the Mini.

Quite a bit, most mini's were built under BL's watch.


User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11110 times:

Honestly, IMO anything made by Detroit in the 90s and early/mid 2000's. I would take a Yugo, Moskvich, or a Lada over that crap any day.

Aztec, grand am, cavalier, monte carlo, etc.. the list just goes on with these cars that are an INSULT to the automotive industry and anyone who cares about it.



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11105 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
I'd also like to throw in a vote for about half of Nissan's current lineup, especially the Cube and new "Pathfinder" (admittedly that's only opinion though).

Damn ! I KNEW I'd have to go to bat for my "Cubie"! Guess what.... we LOVE that little bugger more every day; just drove it up to Chicago area for thanksgiving............filled up in Rockville, and again in Mazon, Ill. 183 miles up the road.......took all of 4 gallons to fill it up; damn near 46 mpg; and that's cruise control all the way, between 62 to 65 mph.

Since I bought the thing 6 months ago, it's well on it's way to paying for it's self, just in the diesel fuel it's saved me from having to buy. (not to mention the 10K miles I didn't have to put on my 1/T Dodge/ cummins.)

We had the little sucker pretty full too; two adults, both cats, (plus 1 cat litter box, one 40 lb box of cat litter, one fold-up wire cat cage ( which we didn't have to use, and shoulda left at home), 5 cartons of dialysis solution, one rat terrier, (Peabody), one plastic bucket for dog food, cat food, plus 4 bowls for same, plus water; one "take apart" i-V "tree" (for dialysis bags), 1 large camera back pack, plus Gitzo (in bag), a BIG suit case (clothes), and one "mega-mouth" canvas tool bag, (complete 3/8" drive set of metric "extended length" sockets, and assorted other tools; also, I always keep a 2 gal plastic bucket in the back end, with windex, Armorall, rainX, roll of paper towels, etc.
(but what people don't realize.........Cubes are only small on the outside; on the inside, they hold a LOT !
And best of all.......they're FUN ! ( Miss Arlie must have "offered" to drive 25 times, but I never would let her; )

Here's what I'm starting to worry about; at the rate I'm going, I'm gonna need another Cube in about 3 1/2 to 4 years; and I'm worried that Nissan might quit making the things. So I'm thinking about buying another one in about a year, and just leaving it in the garage until this one gets a bunch of miles on the clock; maybe start it up a time or two a week, maybe drive it to TH once a month, that way we'll have a "fresh Cube" when this one starts showing signs of "age".

And Nissan..........I bought the Cube with 15K on it; it's got 25K on it now; the AC condenser "quit" at about 20K; the dealer ran us to Enterprise, rented us another Nissan, put a new condenser on the AC, 3 days later, took the rental back for me....all for N/C. A funny little light came in the inst. panel a week or two ago, said "service engine soon" (right after I had changed the oil and filter); stopped by the dealer, the guy comes out with an "analyzer", fumbles under dash a minute, the light goes out; guess what caused the light to come on? Topping off the gas tank ! he says, "when the auto shut-off shuts off, THAT"S IT ! Do NOT put one more drop in ! ( and wouldn't take a cent !) also, a little "squiggly" looking icon-looking thingie had lit up......he says, "your tires need a "pound or two".........runs it back, puts TWO POUNDS of air in each tire, the "icon-thingie" goes out ! I swear, I think the thing might even tell me when it needs washed ! (Smartest damned car I've ever owned !) So Cubes are GOOD!
And they're NOT "ugly"..........they're "CUTE" !

Charley ( delighted Cube owner )



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11087 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 25):
It is, however, well liked by some there because of it's 1970s looks, which appear a little like Holden HQ (in fact a kind of distant relative) or 1970s American cars.

There was an article I saw a few weeks ago about Nissan's collection and some of their cars from the era would quite easily pass as American.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 25):
As Rob said, it wasn't necessarily that it was a bad car, it's just that a tiny outfit like Aston couldn't make such a high-tech car work reliably back in 1976.

If my aunt had nuts...

There are some other bad cars that fall under the category of "they just couldn't make it work right." The Vector W8 comes to mind.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
Again another car that sold in the millions yet it's reputation was trashed by Top Gear, you gotta stop basing you opinions on what Clarkson has to say.

Sales success does not necessarily mean a car has any automotive merit. Lee Iacocca credited the K car with saving Chrysler, but people aren't lining up to collect them.

Sure, there are other cars every bit as crappy as the Marina that Top Gear hasn't sadistically destroyed despite deserving it every bit as much. But the Marina was still an awful car. Then again, when you're talking 1970s, it might be easier to list the cars that weren't garbage.

Quoting flanker (Reply 28):
Aztec, grand am, cavalier, monte carlo, etc.. the list just goes on with these cars that are an INSULT to the automotive industry and anyone who cares about it.

No winners there. The Grand Am possibly had the worst body cladding to come from a factory. That along with the Monte Carlo seem to be popular in trailer parks for some reason.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
.filled up in Rockville, and again in Mazon, Ill. 183 miles up the road.......took all of 4 gallons to fill it up; damn near 46 mpg; and that's cruise control all the way, between 62 to 65 mph

Gee, just think what the mileage would be if the aerodynamics were better than a brick.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11073 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
But the Marina was still an awful car. Then again, when you're talking 1970s, it might be easier to list the cars that weren't garbage.

I'm pretty confident that prior to Top Gear you had never heard of the Marina let alone seen one.

IMO there is no such thing as a bad car especially when compared to the alternatives, walking or public transport  


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4974 posts, RR: 19
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11066 times:

In college I had a Corvair Corsa, the high performance version of the Corvair complete with turbocharger. Very reliable car as long as you kept the carbs in synch. But the thing always leaked oil like mad. And the gasket redo job was about $350.00 at the time and would only last about 3,000 miles before it needed to be redone again.
A couple of years ago I saw a large group of Corvairs at a car show and not one of them dripped oil. Amazing. I asked one of the owners how they managed that and he said that in the 90's they came out with new high temp gaskets that solved the problem once and for all. Once installed they'll never leak again.

I only saw one person who owned a Gremlin. I bought a 72' Gremlin in 74'. Within a year the tops of the front fenders rusted through, a year later the passenger floorboard rusted through. I actually had this mess while I was starting my career and even though the body was falling apart it always started and got me to the airport in the morning. Finally one day on the way home from work the oil pump failed and that was the end of the Gremlin. Other Gremlin owners used to love to tell stories along the lines of "Where were you when your Gremlin stranded you?".

I was in Denver one time picking up a rental car in the late 70's and they gave me a Le Car. I went back in and told them I wanted a real car. They said that's all they have left, take it or leave it. The lady at the desk said they are a fun car to drive, so I took her word and tried it out. I actually liked it. It was a fun car to drive, for a week.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11063 times:

In the 80s my brother had a Citroen Visa. After 6 years and much less than 100.000 kms it was such problem-ridden rustbucket with holes everywhere, even in the middle of the doors, that he scrapped it.

Another very bad car was the Lada Nova. I recently spoke to someone who built it in Togliattigrad who told me things how horribly it was produced, and especially, how negligently it was checked before delivery. Some where stored for long periods before being sold, and sometimes they forgot to put oil into the engine, resulting in engines rusting on the inside! It was basically an old Fiat from the 60s still built in the 90s, but with much lower quality than the Italians did it 3 decades before.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Lancia Gamma.

Among the 10 worst? The I.E. Coupé at least was a very beautiful car, and a car more pretty than its competition shouldnt have a place in the list. The Gamma had a bad and unreliable engine, yes, but that was it, everything else was up to standard. Same could be said about the NSU Ro 80 btw, a milestone of the German motor industry which influences the Audi design up to today.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

Quoting na (Reply 33):
It was basically an old Fiat from the 60s still built in the 90s, but with much lower quality than the Italians did it 3 decades before.

It's not the Lada Nova, no such thing, you problably mean Lada Niva which was a small 4x4 or the Fiat 124 based Lada Riva which they made about 17 million in Russia along with a bunch in Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria and India.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11026 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Yup it was a turd, but Renault managed to sell 5.5 million of them

that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

Quoting na (Reply 33):
Citroen Visa

i worked with a guy who had the gt version and it was loads of fun.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11022 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

Turbo I or Turbo II.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11008 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Turbo I or Turbo II.

i'm not sure but i'd say the 2

if i remember it had about 210hp


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10982 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
It's not the Lada Nova, no such thing, you problably mean Lada Niva which was a small 4x4 or the Fiat 124 based Lada Riva which they made about 17 million in Russia along with a bunch in Turkey, Egypt, Bulgaria and India.

No, I mean the Lada Nova. At least thats the name it was sold under here. Somewhere else it was named Riva, thats true.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10950 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

   ... ah, childhood memories! We had a Maxi 1750cc, and I seem to recall it was really fast. So was my cousin's 2L Maestro.

My neighbour in Portugal actually had an imported RHD Marina out here until a couple of years ago. It would probably have rusted out 2 decades earlier if it had never left England.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 10911 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please.

It was good enough for Walter White  


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10874 times:

Quoting Geezer (Thread starter):
contend that the over-all "worst ever" car is the Pontiac Aztec; needless to say, this has not set so well with many current and former Aztec owners.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I have never owned an Aztek or even driven one, but I think they are cute. I don't understand the hatred of the Aztek.

The problem with the Aztek is that up until that time - Pontiac made some cool niche automobiles. The Aztek was not cool and the amount of money poured into the project hurt the company ability to go forward. It permanently damaged Pontiac's ability to be innovative in a market where standing out was essential.

GM had to sell 30,000 per year to break even - and projected the car at 75,000 per year sales.

The real numbers were bad - less than 28,000 per year. Pontiac lost money on every Aztec it sold - all 108,493 that were sold.

Interestingly a near identical vehicle - the Buick Rendezvous - is considered a success. It brought a lot of young Crossover customers to Buick with its more 'luxury' image. Built at the same factory as the Aztec - on the same basic body.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10845 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 15):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Pretty much anything ever made by British Leyland

The Allegro, Maxi, Princess, Ambassador, Marina, Ital, Maestro & Montego were all dire.

You've forgotten the TR7, especially the convertible which had a nasty habit of folding up in the middle.

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Moskvitch/Izh 412

Probably the one car available in the UK in the 1970's where Skoda and Lada owners considered themselves fortunate

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 21):
Vanden Plas Allegro. A plush version of British Leyland's Austin Allegro, this pricey turd replaced the rather nice Vanden Plas 1300, even though all pretension of these being real luxury cars was basically just a visit to the land of make believe. Poor dynamics, poor quality, odd styling, and terminal rust brought many an Allegro to a not-entirely-undeserved early grave.

One model in the range even had the innovative square steering wheel.

The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.

Early Datsuns, nasty plastic seats and terrible rust problems. Amazing though how a make whose first imports to the UK were so dire could be industry leading within a decade.

Reliant Robin - three wheels at best.

Reliant Kitten, only plus point was that it initially had four wheels !!


User currently onlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7512 posts, RR: 23
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10836 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
The Aztek was an eyesore, there's no doubt about that. But the worst car ever? Please. Pontiac died because it offered nothing substantially worthwhile that couldn't be gotten in another GM product, minus the G8 of course.

It's worth noting that the Buick Rendezvous (one of the first CUVs on the market) utilized the same exact platform as the Aztec and had respectable sales. The main issue w/the Aztec was its looks in the eyes of most people.

That said, the Aztec alone didn't kill the Pontiac brand. IMHO, the only reason why GM killed off Pontiac rather than Buick was due to the latter make's success in the Chinese market. Strip away the Chinese market and one would have seen higher Pontiac sales numbers than Buicks.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The parents also owned a mid-70s Pinto (which didn't make the list but should have) and my Dad bought a late 70's Mustang II, which did made the list.

Given the much-publicized gas tank fires from being rear-ended ('71-'76 Pinto/Bobcat sedans & runabout models only); I'm surprised that the Pinto wasn't mentioned either.

Interestingly, despite utilizing the same platform & components as the Pinto; the Mustang II was not reported to have such issues (maybe Ford resolved the matter by then). While the Mustang II was ultimately viewed as a let-down (its first year sales broke the 300k figure) in the eyes of most Mustang enthusiasts; at the time it rolled out, it became more than clear that its larger, early-70s predecessor wasn't going to cut it anymore.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
They bought a Vega brand new in 1974

One early 80s Motor Trend article phrased the Vega as such in its Best & Worst Used Car Review (the Vega was listed #1 under the Worst category), "They rust, they overheat and that engine has the durability of a potato chip."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Chrysler Sebring

To be fair, prior to 2007-2008; the Sebrings weren't that bad. Competitors upping their game along with the Sebring's mediocre restyle was what did it in IMHO.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

Sadly, the #1 reason why diesel-powered car fell out of favor in the U.S. even to this day.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Cimarron

My brother & I were just talking about the Cimmarron the other day. Had Cadillac upsized the J-car platform a tad and styled it more uniquely; it might've had a better overall sales reception.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Cadillac Allante

Yes, this type of car should've been RWD but I don't believe that alone makes the Allante one of the worst cars of all time. Cadillac's last attempt on a 2-seater, the XLR, utilized a Corvette platform and still bombed saleswise.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Edsel

Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Mustang II

See above one this one. It's initial sales success had more to do w/the timing of its roll-out. For the 1974 model year; nearly any 4-cylinder powered car was selling like hotcakes due to the high gas prices and long lines at the pumps.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Renault LeCar

   More like LeJunk, espeically w/its paper-thin doors. My cross-country/track coach owned 2 of these.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Yugo

A car that had a starting price of $3990 back in 1987. For that money, one could get a decent used car that wasn't too old back then.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
ALL of the GM X cars?

Truth be told, for the final model years (1984-1985); the majority of the X-body related-issues were resolved/addressed but given the bad reputation & publicity of the earlier models, the X-body was still considered damaged goods. IMHO, many of the models weren't that bad looking. And it's also worth noting that the A-body platform that rolled out 2 years later (1982) shared a lot of components w/its smaller cousins but survived a decade later with some of its later models being viewed as very reliable.

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 6):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Dodge Caliber

Perfect examples of the "that'll do" mentality that existed in Detroit for so long.

To think that the Neon died for this car still blows my mind to this day.

Quoting bohica (Reply 16):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
Another 'worst' car(s) the 1976-1981 Dodge Aspen/Plymouth Volare.

Which was replaced by something even worse: The "K" cars. The Dodge Aries, Plymouth Reliant, Dodge 400 and Chrysler LeBaron.

It's worth noting that the Aspen/Volare platform lived on as the M-body (actually a spin-off of the Aspen/Volare) lived on through the end of the 80s as the Dodge Diplomat, Chrysler LeBaron ('77-'81), Chrysler New Yorker (1982), Chrysler Fifth Avenue ('83-'89), Plymouth Caravelle (Canada-only '77-'81), Plymouth Gran Fury ('82-'89), Chrysler Cordoba/Dodge Mirada ('80-'83) and the Chrysler Imperial ('81-'83). Most of those vehicles did not suffer from the same level of recalls and relibility issues as the Aspen/Volare.

Love them or hate them, the K-cars were one of the reasons why the Chrysler Corporation survived after its near-death in the late-70s.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
The Pinto and Mustang II were really cars mated for manual transmissions.

   Both of my father's Pinto wagons (a '74 Squire & a '72 base model) were equipped w/manuals. I First learned to drive a stick in my father's '72 (which he bought for $300 back in 1983).

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Ford LTD II 1977-1979
(At least the T-Bird spun from them were distinct) At first I hated their design but, as I get older am liking their looks. However, if you went with the base Bird from that era it still felt, rode and drove like the lower end LTD II's. Sluggish lack of feel steering, space shuttle power brakes that hurled you forward and seats that were a torture chamber on wheels if you had to drive or ride for more than an hour or 2.

Those weren't that bad. I took my driver's test in my mother's '77 LTD II 4-door. The main issue w/those (IMHO) was that the hoods were longer than that of the full-size LTD (even the pre-downsized models) and the trunk space was lacking (compared to full-size models). The LTD II was essentially a revamped, more angular Torino with a longer hood. Though the large gas tank, 26 gallons, translated to a longer cruising range.

The T-Birds of that era turned out to be the best selling T-Birds per model year ever.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
1979-1993 Mustang, A Fairmont made into a pony car

Sorry, but if it weren't for those Fox-based Mustangs (especially when the High Output GT model rolled out in 1982); the current Mustangs, as we know them, probably wouldn't even exist today.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Most of the Mercury line from 1958 through 1960, the dark ages of auto styling.

Those were the only years when Mercurys weren't merely stretched and/or dressier Fords. The '58-'60 Edsels filled the Ford-Mercury gap at the time.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10829 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.

To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets, including almost all Italian, French and British cars, even Japanese, and quite a high number of German ones, although the Germans fixed the problem a few years earlier than the neighbours. The problem was that almost all car companies used recyled steel back then which wasnt really "cleaned" from the rust of the cars it formed before, while at the same time they "forgot" to seal sills etc.


User currently offlineCargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1262 posts, RR: 8
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 10780 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
My brother & I were just talking about the Cimmarron the other day. Had Cadillac upsized the J-car platform a tad and styled it more uniquely; it might've had a better overall sales reception.

The very concept of the Cimmaron was really doomed to failure. But exacerbating the situation was the last-minute nature of the decision to go ahead with it.

A fair amount of time was given to differentiating the Buick and Oldsmobile versions from the Pontiac and Chevrolet versions of the J-car. At that time they were not working hard enough to distinguish the cars from one another, but at least you could tell which ones the Buick and Olds were, and they put time into comprehensively restyling the front and rear of those two cars. Cadillac's last minute decision to go ahead with the Cimmaron meant that kind of time could not be applied to it's version - and so the early Cimmaron was virtually indistinguishable from the the Cavalier at a glance.

It wasn't until 1985 that the car got the V6, and 1986 that the car was facelifted to differentiate it a little, and even then, too little, too late. The car went into production because dealers were screaming in 1980 about how they had nothing to sell against smaller imports, in a year when large car sales totally collapsed (1980 was a very, very bad year to have a showroom stocked with traditional detroit full-sizers, kind of like 2008 for large SUVs).

Worse than this though, should be the realization that Buick wanted to bring over the Opel Senator and Monza and this idea was vetoed by top brass. Had these cars been marketed by Cadillac, chances are the story would be different. They would not, of course, have fit in at all with the rest of the Cadillac lineup at that time and would have embarrassed most of the domestic models across all five divisions.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
The I.E. Coupé at least was a very beautiful car, and a car more pretty than its competition shouldnt have a place in the list.

I do agree about that, and I do like the Gamma, particularly the Coupe. But it also did terminal damage to Lancia's ability to compete with the top-tier luxury brands, and having had the option of owning one of the few that found it's way to the U.S., the ultimate test for me was "Would I?" And I wouldn't.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

The R5 is not well regarded in the USA, but it wasn't a bad car. Renault, like Fiat, had a pretty awful dealer network in the United States and support was very poor, as was management's ability to judge what cars Americans wanted and how to properly support them. Since quality in the 1970s was never that great in either France or Italy, all those problems compounded on one another. The Le Car, as the R5 was marketed here, was not very good for US needs. Too small, too small an engine, crappy support, all the hassles of other 1970s cars with very little benefit. In Europe, where it was marketed with a much wider range of engines and options and where dealer support was quite good, it did much better.

The R5 doesn't really deserve to be on this list, but many Americans have bad memories of them. Renault effectively bailed out of supporting the French-built products once it bought American Motors, and focused instead on building the 9 and 11 here. This meant that owners of the French-build Renaults faced even more hurdles at the dealer, and certainly at AMC dealers who were selling the new Renaults but wanted nothing to do with the older ones. The R5 therefore had a very rough time as a used car in 1980s America. Then Renault bailed out of America altogether after 1988, and AMC/Jeep/Eagle dealers really decided they wanted nothing to do with the orphaned Renaults, which they hadn't liked in the first place. AMC's build quality on the Alliance and Encore was very poor as well, and cost Chrysler millions in recalls.

Renault as a brand is essentially permanently tainted by these developments, even if the final french Renaults that were sold here, the R18 and the R21, weren't really that bad, and Renault has been a very good brand for years in its non-north-American markets. It was also a Renault expat, Francois Castaing, who helped build Chrysler Bramalea, Ontario plant that eventually produced some of Chrysler's best 1990s cars.

It isn't just Renault that couldn't plan it's U.S. product strategy properly, either. Peugeot offered a wide range of quite good cars in the 1970s and 1980s, including a car that could have faced off against the XJS and American personal/luxury coupes at the height of their popularity - the 504 Coupe - but you'd never have known that from the U.S. lineup, which year after year consisted only of the 504, 505, and 604. Finally, in 1989, they brought over the 405. But in Europe the 405 was a Honda Accord type of car. In the U.S. it was sold and priced against the much nicer BMW 3-series "because it was European." I loved the 405, and I've owned two of them, but this strategy was a disaster for Peugeot - people know the difference between an Accord type of car and a 3-series type of car, and in the recession of 1991, they threw in the towel - right when they were to introduce the 605 and 306 over the next two years, cars that would have done alot of good for the brand if they'd stayed.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

More or less. The Edsel was really no better or worse than some of the competitors. Dodge and Plymouth, which were selling really well at the time thanks to the "forward look" restyling, had quality ills that were arguably worse than anything at Edsel, but are not remembered as lemons the way the Edsel was (though Mopar people know that the '57-'59 Chrysler models are prolific rustbuckets).

The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 10763 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I'm pretty confident that prior to Top Gear you had never heard of the Marina let alone seen one.

I had actually, thanks to a combination of boredom and internet access, but never paid any attention to it since it was just another crummy seventies car. It was probably better that way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
IMO there is no such thing as a bad car especially when compared to the alternatives, walking or public transport

That's kept quite a few less than stellar cars on the market.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 32):
I took her word and tried it out. I actually liked it. It was a fun car to drive, for a week.

That's the thing. The list of cars I'd drive is way, way longer than the list of cars I'd actually spend money to own. I'd love to go for a spin in a Fiat 500 Abarth or most other hot hatches, but I don't think I'd write a check for one knowing that the same money could buy a used M car, Japanese sports car, or a nice enough Boxster.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
Turbo I or Turbo II.

Now that is a car for the list of "fun cars Americans never got." I think there's a few that managed to sneak over on the grey market.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 41):
The real numbers were bad - less than 28,000 per year. Pontiac lost money on every Aztec it sold - all 108,493 that were sold.

A lot of those Aztecs ended up as company cars for GM employees.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
To be fair, prior to 2007-2008; the Sebrings weren't that bad. Competitors upping their game along with the Sebring's mediocre restyle was what did it in IMHO.

They still never seemed to get up to the Japanese or European standards, and it got worse as competitors marched onward.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Yes, this type of car should've been RWD but I don't believe that alone makes the Allante one of the worst cars of all time.

It will make worst cars lists, but not ugliest cars lists.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Cadillac's last attempt on a 2-seater, the XLR, utilized a Corvette platform and still bombed saleswise.

I've heard few complaints about the XLR itself. I think it just would have been dumb to lay out money for an XLR when you could have a Corvette instead.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedtw9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1156 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10729 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):

Love them or hate them, the K-cars were one of the reasons why the Chrysler Corporation survived after its near-death in the late-70s.



The K-cars and the Chrysler minivans were both conceived at Ford Motor Co at the time Lee Iacocca was President. The minivan concept was known as the "MiniMax Project" at Ford. Both the Mini-Van and K-car were Ideas that Hal Sperlich and Lee Iacocca presented to Henry Ford ll, who upon seeing the designs, wanted nothing to do with them. After Lee was fired by Henry and hired by Chrysler he brought over with him the designs for both vehicles. Hal Sperlich joined Chrysler shortly after and the rest is history. In 1985 I was talking with a Ford Engineer and he was telling me the story. I really didn't believe him until the next day when he showed me photos of both concepts with the Ford Blue Oval on the grilles.


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10657 times:

Quoting na (Reply 44):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets

In my experience it rusted even faster than a Dagenham dustbin (The UK Ford assembly plant in the 70's was at Dagenham, thus all Fords were known as Dagenham Dustbin)

It ight have driven well, but that only meant it reached the scrapyard faster !!


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10627 times:

There are a lot of vehicles mentioned here that don't really deserve to be on the list; just because it looks weird or is bad by today's standards doesn't mean it's a bad car. What makes a "bad" car in my mind? Well:

-Unsafe for any reason, be it poor design or cost-cutting: Here we find vehicles like the Pinto, the 1995-2001 Ford Explorer, the current Jeep Grand Cherokee, early Mercedes A-Class and a number of others.

-Badly built: Kind of self-explanatory; either the manufacturer cheaped out at the parts bin (speccing cheap parts), or they just didn't care enough about what they were building to make it better - the classic GM "good enough" attitude. Here we find lots of things from GM, Chrysler, Renault, Peugeot and the Italians.

-Not competitive in its market: This gets a bit more complicated, and is often very subjective. There are lots of cars that are good from a safety, performance, comfort and reliability standpoint by themselves, but when compared to their competition, they simply doesn't measure up. Again, lots of cars are on this list, but recent additions to this list include the 2012 Honda Civic and the 2013+ Chevy Malibu (a car that finished dead last in a number of recent auto magazine comparisons despite being the newest in the segment, and in fact would have finished behind the previous generation Malibu).

Quoting Geezer (Reply 29):
Charley ( delighted Cube owner )

Yeah, I agree on that one; the Cube is "bad" in many people's minds because it's so odd-looking. Once you get past that, it's a pretty good car. There are far worse products in Nissan's lineup anyways.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):

To think that the Neon died for this car still blows my mind to this day.

It sort of didn't. Daimler killed off the Neon replacement for reasons that aren't really clear; probably a combination of trying to re-position Dodge's market niche and a desire to keep as much of Chrysler's cash for themselves as possible. The Caliber was an afterthought given to the compact car market, and it showed in nearly every aspect of the Caliber's build quality and dynamics.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
I've heard few complaints about the XLR itself. I think it just would have been dumb to lay out money for an XLR when you could have a Corvette instead.

The biggest problem with the XLR was it's price - it was pushing deep into territory occupied by the likes of the Mercedes CLK and SL, BMW 6-Series and the Porsche 911, only the Cadillac didn't have the chops to back up the exorbitant price. Also, the engine choice in the XLR was troublesome; while it was once state of the art, the Northstar engine was hopelessly out of date by the time it found itself in the XLR. Even the LSx engines in the Corvette were better overall.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10619 times:

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
2013+ Chevy Malibu (a car that finished dead last in a number of recent auto magazine comparisons despite being the newest in the segment, and in fact would have finished behind the previous generation Malibu)

I don't see much positive about that car. It is a Malibu, so the bar isn't very high, but still.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
The Caliber was an afterthought given to the compact car market, and it showed in nearly every aspect of the Caliber's build quality and dynamics.

Hopefully the Fiat/Alfa DNA will make Chrysler competitive in small cars again.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 49):
The biggest problem with the XLR was it's price - it was pushing deep into territory occupied by the likes of the Mercedes CLK and SL, BMW 6-Series and the Porsche 911, only the Cadillac didn't have the chops to back up the exorbitant price.

That's what I gathered at the time. There just wasn't much reason to pay that much for the car. Either you'd buy a European model for the same money or buy a Corvette that was faster for considerably less. The only thing about the XLR that was better than the Vette was having a hardtop, but if that's important, you'd just buy a Mercedes SL or Lexus SC.

It's a shame the XLR wasn't a better car, because I think it was probably the best looking car from Caddie's Art and Science styling. The current CTS is okay, but the ass is a bit large. The ATS is okay too, but some of the details seem off to me.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1131 posts, RR: 13
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10574 times:

Seriously? we're up to 50 replies and nobody has mentioned the Trabant?

I'd agree with the Yugo, Pinto, Vega, Aspen / Volare. I'd add the 1969 Dart/Valiant; that particular model year seems to have been cursed.



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 45):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
Actually, the brand was simply known as Edsel. While it still was part of Ford Motor Company, the Edsel was a completely separate brand... like Lincoln and Mercury. IMHO, the main issue w/the Edsel's bombing was the fact that it first rolled out during a recession year for the auto industry. 1958 seemed so bad, at the time; that even then, GM actually pondered killing off the Pontiac brand and didn't even bother freshening up the '58 styled models for '59 but instead went with all newly styled (tailfins and all) and longer platforms and bodies.

IMHO, had Edsel rolled out either a model year earlier (1957) or later (1959); it might've survived at least a few years longer.

More or less. The Edsel was really no better or worse than some of the competitors. Dodge and Plymouth, which were selling really well at the time thanks to the "forward look" restyling, had quality ills that were arguably worse than anything at Edsel, but are not remembered as lemons the way the Edsel was (though Mopar people know that the '57-'59 Chrysler models are prolific rustbuckets).

The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

I checked out the history of the Edsel and, Ford made a big adoo saying it was futuristic and a major change. It was sort of a case of the emperor and his new clothes. From the side and rear they were basically the same fugly (in my opinion) 1957-1959 big Fords with that inverted front vent window creating a dog leg which cut into passenger room. But, that grill was controversial. The 1958 Edsel front was compared to a "horse collar," Oldsmobile sucking a lemon, and some even felt the vertical triangle was a subliminal cue to a girl's pussy! Which in 1958 America was a no no that stuff was done in the dark behind closed doors! For 1959, the grill was toned down and actually not that bad looking. A close friend who was Edsel obsessed and a member of the Edsel club owned a 1959 White Edsel Ranger Wagon with a red interior. That interior was as bare bones and depression era as the low end Fords but retailed for more money.
Interestingly Edsel's last year saw a major redesign as the Big Fords got more contemporary for 1960 model year and lost that horrendous hippo look and that horrible inverted over kill 1950's front vent window. Gone on the Edsel were the Horse Collar grill of '58 and '59. Those 60 Edsels are extremely rare especially convertibles of the species but the die was cast and the Edsel became a historical footnote. Even if it came out in '57 that grill mated with the same old same old fat Ford design were two strikes against it. Even the name sounded weird to people. Edsel sounded like Diesel or the name of a kitty cat with Down's Syndrome.

The 1958 GM line was supposed to be a one year/shot deal. GM thought the wave of the future was to radically redesign their land yachts on an annual basis. The horrid looking 58's were basically carryovers of the 1957 Buick, Olds and Caddy's which were some of the ugliest (at least in my opinion) cars the General rolled out. The Buick and Olds wagons of 57 and '58 looked like tubas with wheels!
Interestingly Harley Earl was against the campaign to completley restyle the GM large cars for '59. He wanted to take a more conservative approach and freshen up the hippo '58's. I'm glad the General didn't listen to him. The 1959's epitomize the space age rockin rocket ship era of the late 1950's.

I never heard GM wanted to kill Pontiac back in the late 1950's. Up through 1958 Pontiacs were considered staid matron mobiles. Like Marlboro ciggies their images were radically worked over to make both brands macho. 1959 saw the current Pontiac triangle logo and The Wide Track. So to kill them off seemed odd.

Though 58 was a recession year that was the first year of the now 4 seater re-desined T Bird. And next to the LTD II era birds of 77 to 79 these were the T-Bird's best sales. The Thunderbird was one of the exceptions of ugly 1958 car styling in my opinion.

The Mercs of those years were just plain awkward and fugly. The Turnpike Cruiser used all the bad styling cues of the late 1950's; too much chrome, wierd angles etc. Those Merc's were old lady matron cars!

Many car people say the 1958 to 1960 Continentals were the worst for quality and build. The 1955 to 1957 Mark II were hand built and cost $10,000 which in the 50's for an auto put it up there with the elites. Those two doors to me are timeless in design and remind me a big of the Mercedes of that era. They were big, bad, luxurious but built like a brick sh*t house. So to many the Breezeway Continentals came across as gaudy and almost killed off Lincoln and Continental. It was Bob Engel who came out with the "JFK" Continentals including the iconic 4 door convertible that restored the marque. Some say the 1961 Continentals were the most radically re-styled, re-designed ever.

And I agree with Superfly; today's Lincolns are trying to be me too by adopting confusing names, letters and numbers. Leave the alphabet soup to the Europeans and Japanese and make a decent product using your classic brand names and stand behind them.


The Aztec always reminds me of those awful bloated outdated AMC Hornet/Eagle four door station wagons.   



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2447 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 10536 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 39):
We had a Maxi 1750cc, and I seem to recall it was really fast

   Compared to a shopping trolley maybe   I vaguely remember my dad had one as a courtesy car and was comparing the gearbox to a spoon in a bowl of porridge - that was because his brand new Renault 11 was constantly in the garage for leaking windscreen each time it rained. Another nomination for a pretty crappy car, though better than the ones before it.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 39):
So was my cousin's 2L Maestro.

The MG version was actually fairly potent for its time, but it was still a Maestro.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
Quite a bit, most mini's were built under BL's watch.

In fairness, they got pretty lucky inheriting it from Austin.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
The MKS as a Town Car replacement? Are they really serious or just playing a real bad joke?

They are serious, Lincoln managed to sell a MKS to an old guy I know and took his Continental as a trade in. Not a Town Car, but that was a nice ride with a very smooth engine. The MKS is butt ugly too and so far he has had quite a few electrical faults.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
When the world was screaming for more Hillman Hunters, the Iranians stepped up to the plate.

Ah, Hillman, the Imp too. Forgotten about them, saw a couple in Malta when I was there along with a few Marina's and other British stuff from my childhood - that place was paradise for crappy car nostalgia! Not to mention the trucks.

Some others that were awful:

Datsun Cherry
FSO Polonez
Fiat Strada
Fiat 127
Skoda Estelle - cant believe no one mentioned this one!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
Reliant Robin - three wheels at best.

   Anything reliant, always wanted to drive Delboy's van though!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):
You've forgotten the TR7, especially the convertible which had a nasty habit of folding up in the middle.

I dont remember it being particularly bad, my friends lodger had one with a V8 and it was pretty potent machine. I guess I dont remember too much about it as he wrapped it round a tree not too long after getting it.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10512 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 53):
They are serious, Lincoln managed to sell a MKS to an old guy I know and took his Continental as a trade in. Not a Town Car, but that was a nice ride with a very smooth engine.

The MKS was the true Continental replacement.
The Continental has been a Taurus-based, front-drive car every since the 1988 model year.
This is not a Town Car replacement at all.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4431 posts, RR: 19
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 10520 times:

My Pos 2009 Camry SE.


The worst car Toyota has ever made



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10440 times:

There is nothing wrong with a Yugo....


When I was 14, my parents acquired a Yugo for me to drive around the horse paddock (no horses were harmed).

It was a rust bucket, but it kept on going despite what abuse i dished out to the poor little car. Started first time no matter what the weather. It did a lot of good, I had 8 driving lessons before being put in for my driving test and passed first time.

It was a sad day, when the vehicle scrap man came to pick it up, for it to be crushed into a little cube.


Other cars to add to the survey...

Any Rover that was just a re-badged Honda - The only good thing was the K-Series engine.

MG-F Horrible car, My dad saw the preview pictures, went to the dealership and ordered one - owned it for 12 months and sold it.

Peugeot 405 Mi16x4 It was an Ok car styling wise, but build quality was shocking. Going round the M25 at 70-75mph pressing the brake pedal which goes straight to the floor and not having any brakes, is a scary experience, especially when the car was only 3 months old, and hadn't even done 2000 miles. Other build quality issues related to the electrics, like the front seat warmers clicking on by themselves. The rear spoiler departed the car at speed.

Vauxhall Calibra - It was just a Vauxhall Cavalier/Vectra with a cocktail dress on. Shame the chassis wasn't a match to go with its looks.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently onlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7512 posts, RR: 23
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 52):
I never heard GM wanted to kill Pontiac back in the late 1950's.

There was a tid-bit in an old Collectible Automobile magazine article that covered 50s cars that mentioned it. It may have been an in-house rumor/proposal that was never made public.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 52):
It was Bob Engel who came out with the "JFK" Continentals

I believe you meant Elwood Engel; he was also the one who designed the fuselage-bodied full-size Chryslers of the late 60s/early 70s.

IMHO, if Lincoln ever needed another '61 Continental moment; it's now! The current crop of 'large' Lincolns are epic-fails.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2510 posts, RR: 7
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

There were some true turkeys named above - Vega, Pinto, Yugo, the K-cars and others - all deserve to be on the list, but I am reminded of a friend of mine who had a Vega, hated it and traded it in for what may be the worst car of all-time...The Opel Cadet! Man, what a pice of junk that thing was - the damned gas pedal fell off on our way home from the shworoom - I am not making that up. Every time he turned a knob or flipped a switch, sompething else fell apart. And it spent more time in the shop than on the road

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
Man, what a pice of junk that thing was - the damned gas pedal fell off on our way home from the shworoom - I am not making that up.

It's not like the gas pedal was going to do anything anyway.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
Every time he turned a knob or flipped a switch, sompething else fell apart.

My mom's 1992 Caprice has a similar issue. Even if things don't break, every time you actuate a switch or lever it feels like you broke it. And the combination of little pedal travel and little discernible effect always makes it seem like the floor mat is caught under the accelerator.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10264 times:

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 45):
The Edsel was a victim of two things - entry into a crowded market during a severe (but short lived) recession that hit that market really hard, and controversial styling up front. It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

It was not really a bad car - just not a great one, and poorly timed.

I'll have to take your word for that.......as I have never owned one; But I did make a surprising conclusion a few years back, as to why the Edsel became such an "icon" of failure; as you may, (and probably do know), there is, (or at least was) a very large "Edsel Club"; all of them have their Edsels, all completely restored, washed, waxed, and shining like new pennies. On several occasions while I was still "out & about", running hither and yon trying to deliver "Government Motor's" vehicles to dealers, I ran across these Edsel "lovers" (and their Edsels) a few times; even talked with a few of them when we were staying in the same motels / hotels. One thing became crystal clear; their apparent "euphoria" over a vehicle deemed by most people to be "less than pleasing", was due in large measure to just ONE THING; the very center of the front grille ! They were totally obsessed by the fact that the "front end" of their Edsels bore a striking resemblance to something else; (which had nothing to do with transportation.)

I can't prove any of this, as it's simply my own "observation"; but in talking with many Edsel owners, I couldn't help noticing a peculiar fascination they all seemed to have with their vehicles "front ends"! (and how many of them seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time "rubbing and polishing", "rubbing and polishing", always in the same general area !

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 10226 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 60):

I also made mention of this in one of my earlier replies to this thread.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):

And, it was interesting the 1959 Edsel's front was way toned down from the 1958.
And, the compact car that became the Mercury Comet was supposed to be sold under the Edsel flag as their "small entry level car!" Mercury got it instead upon the death of Edsel.

Another bit of 1950's automotive trivia, Ford bandied the name Hepcat for what was the Thunderbird! Sometimes just the car's name can make it or brake it!
I thought the 2013 Malibu was basically a facelift and re-skinning of the current Malibu. Toi me it looks pretty much the same.

Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV. What was wrong with them? I had a lot of experience with them because I was a bellman/valet at a luxury hotel back then. They were in style then along with the bulky fugly Expidition. At least in my opinion looks wise this Explorer was the best of the three generations. Each successive incarnation got uglier in the looks department. I'm not an SUV fan but they drove nice. Go figure.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the last car to be called a Pontiac LeMans. The ugly little 4 door that was from Korea this would have been the late 80's. They always got mediocre at best reviews.

Does anyone know if Honda remedied a lot of the shortcomings in their 2013 Civics? The 2012's were panned in the auto press.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 57):
I believe you meant Elwood Engel; he was also the one who designed the fuselage-bodied full-size Chryslers of the late 60s/early 70s.

IMHO, if Lincoln ever needed another '61 Continental moment; it's now! The current crop of 'large' Lincolns are epic-fails.

  

LIncoln should get back to it's routes and get away from trying to be a foreign car wannabe.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11570 posts, RR: 15
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10196 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 43):
the Aztec alone didn't kill the Pontiac brand

They did manage to parlay the Aztek into the Vibe, which was also a cute little car.

I think, though, GM decided since Buick was a more reconginzed brand world-wide, they kept that and axed Pontiac. Also, more older people in the US with more disposible income would go for a Buick before Pontiac.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10194 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
The ugly little 4 door that was from Korea this would have been the late 80's.

Which started life in 1984 as the Opel Kadett.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10190 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV. What was wrong with them?

Their tendency to roll over when a tire failed understandably turned a lot of people off.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 62):
They did manage to parlay the Aztek into the Vibe, which was also a cute little car.

The Aztek and Vibe were not related from an engineering standpoint. The Aztek/Rendezvous shared a platform with the GM minivans while the Vibe was basically a rebadged Toyota Matrix that shares pieces with the Corolla.

The real Aztek replacement was the Torrent, which was a rebadged Chevy Equinox, making it a passable, if wholly unremarkable, vehicle.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10167 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 35):
that's a r5 here in europe and i owned 2, both second hand. Both were vary good cars, simple and cheep to run.

Also, i got to drive the turbo version (mid engine rwd not the fwd) and it was a blast!

I owned one, it was my first car and it took all the abuse I put it through (even though the car was almost as old as I when I took it) and still held long enough for my brother to take over when I finally bought a new car.

It was one of the old pre-turbo diesels. Massively underpowered (unless going downhill) but really cheap to run.

I got to drive my uncle's turbo (I was supposed to inherit it, but mom vetoed the decission and looking back it was probably for the best) but it was the post-restyling GT Turbo version (so front, not middle-engined).


User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4974 posts, RR: 19
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 10165 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 61):
Also in an earlier reply someone mentioned the 1990's era Ford Explorer SUV

I had a 1993 Explorer Sport for a few years. The problem with it was the handling, especially at high speeds on the freeway.
It drove like you would imagine a car would on top of a 10 foot tall ladder mounted on roller skates. Most cars will have some body roll into a curve, but it comes on gradually. If you drove the Explorer into a curve on the road it would try to stay level but then at a certain point in the curve all the body roll would come on all at once which would require some tricky driving to keep the vehicle on it's feet. I upgraded the anti-sway bars, installed heavier shocks but nothing would really help this car. I believe it was a design issue. The car simply had too high of a center of gravity. In the hands of someone who isn't adept at driving this vehicle could be downright dangerous.

My next car a BMW X5 had none of these handling issues at all.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10150 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 65):
Massively underpowered

both of mine were 1.4l petrol and second gen models. I don't remember them as being slow unless i had 4 in it.

Also, last night i saw a renault 7. These are r5 built just for spain and the reason i was told was that the hatchback r5 was too modern at the time!


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 10152 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 48):
Quoting na (Reply 44):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 42):The Lancia Beta, mostly suffering from terminal corrosion on delivery.To single out this really nicely driving car isnt quite right (I had one, although a sports version, back in the 80s). There were many cars in the 70s to mid-80s which were rustbuckets

In my experience it rusted even faster than a Dagenham dustbin (The UK Ford assembly plant in the 70's was at Dagenham, thus all Fords were known as Dagenham Dustbin)

It ight have driven well, but that only meant it reached the scrapyard faster !!

I repeat it, its unfair to single out the Beta. When I sold mine, which was of the two-door HPE bodystyle, it was 8 years old, and I had enjoyed it for more than 5 years. It was great to drive, very beautiful outside, had a very nice and very practical interior, and I would say its reliability was average. Looking back it perhaps was the car I enjoyed most. It was rusty at the end, absolutely, had clocked about 140.000 kms (of which I drove 120.000) and should still have done 2 years or 4 more. So pretty much what could be expected from most cars from the early 80s. And by now its a classic with the prices going up.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 10151 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Edsel

Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from. That was a great car that just so happened to sale poorly. It was an upmarket car that was released during a recession. The 1958 model year had a beautiful front grille....



Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.



The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.




Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 22
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10122 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from.

Yeah, they lasted and lasted like the old Mercs of that era. When one appeared behind us in traffic my father used to muse that the front looked like a giant vagina! I thought the push-button automatic tranny selector in the steering-wheel hub was pretty kool. Would be real nice on a Town Car.

Worst cars I've ever experienced were an Audi 100 and a Volvo 170. Mechanical disasters. Both had issues so bad I would never want another of those brands. Back in the 90's the Bosch (I pronounced "botch") starters for the Volvo were very poorly made. I once went through THREE NEW ones before I got one that would work!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 10060 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
GM cars with the Olds diesel engine

The 350 diesel sucked and it was underpowered for the cars it was put in. Nothing was worse than getting stuck behind a 1980 Cadillac Fleetwood with a 100hp diesel on a hill. To be fair my 1980 Mercedes 300 TD (station wagon, not turbo) wasn't any faster, but was way more reliable.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Renault LeCar

I knew a guy who had one that had rust on it the day he brought it home from the dealership. He returned it and got another. That one was rusted out before he finished paying for it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Ford Edsel

Just Edsel. It was a good car, no different than other Fords of its day.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 4):
the Smart line up and the Fiat 500. Man, are those bad

They may look odd for the US, but I don't think they are bad cars.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
The Pinto was a bad car, but it's reputation is even worse than it actually was

The engine was great, they used versions of it for almost 40 years,

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.

The Volt is actually a good car and the fires are total BS. One of the garage fires was actually caused by a homemade electric car parked next to it and the other was from faulty installation of the charger, by an owner. The fires on an insurance company test lot were weeks after a crash and after not having the batteries drained according to GM specifications.

The Volt has little to do with Obama. The car was conceived and the first test models were on the roads when Bush was still president. As a rightest I get tired of all the lies spread about the Volt. It is actually a well built car and everyone I have ever met who complains about them has never driven one.

I have driven the Volt, in the snow in downtown Detroit and it was on battery power and we had heat.

Quoting na (Reply 71):
3 billion just for this single car type? Hard to believe

I think it is down to about $150,000 now. I don't hear people bitching about other electrics which are also costing companies more to build than to sell. Chrysler is now going to sell some electric in Californian because they have too, not because they will make money. Sometimes the price to get the technology in the marketplace is high and sold at a loss, but the knowledge gained is valuable. If GM wasn't building the Volt people would be saying the GM is falling behind other companies who sell electric cars.

What makes a bad car differs for a lot of people. As a mechanic I look at a bad car as one that doesn't last very long or is a total pain in the butt to repair. There are plenty of ugly cars that weren't bad to fix. The Aztek is like that. Mechanically it was a fine car. The Cadillac Catera was a pile of junk and sucks to work on. A Ford Taurus from the early 2000s is a pile of junk, from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of people consider them good cars.

The Chrysler K cars were unreliable turds, but they were cheap and easy to fix, which is better than a car that breaks down and is expensive and difficult to repair.

1970s and 1980s GM pickups were rust buckets, but they are sooooo easy to fix and get parts for they are great trucks.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10030 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 71):
At the end of 2011 production was stopped for a short time.

That was due to production levels not meeting demand.

GM even over played the battery fire nonsense. They offered people their money back on the cars, which made people think the problem was worse than it was. GM and no other company will buy back people's conventional cars because two crash tested cars had a battery fire weeks after they were crashed. There are 1000s of fires relating to conventional car batteries (ask Superfly about the kind of damage they can do). Every automotive textbook has a list of safety rules to follow so batteries don't catch fire and explode. I saw a battery explode at an motorcycle shop last summer and the aftermath of a battery fire on a boat that was brought in for repair at my friend's shop. A good friend had a battery fire in his camper a month ago, due to a charging system failure. Fortunately he put it out before the damage left the battery compartment.

Back when the media was all fired up over Volt fires a lady at my church was going on about how dangerous the car was and how the government should do something about it. I told her about the dangers of conventional car batteries and she was shocked. She had no idea how dangerous a lead acid battery could be.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10002 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Not sure where all the Edsel hatred is coming from.

Looks mostly, and being synonymous half a century later with being a sales flop.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
Honestly, my vote goes to the Chevrolet Volt.

If you want to blast an electric car for catching fire, you should be after the far better looking Fisker Karma. They've already seen recalls (two I think) and several burned in a port during Hurricane Sandy, but as far as I know the investigation is still pending.

Quoting na (Reply 71):
Anyway, if remotely true thats for the cars sold so far.

It is, and there's plenty of ways to spin those numbers. None of them appear especially good, but some are less bad than others. Either way, making a big investment up front isn't bad, as long as it isn't public money.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
That was due to production levels not meeting demand.

Then why were there stories about dealers dropping prices on Volts to make sure they sold?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
Back when the media was all fired up over Volt fires a lady at my church was going on about how dangerous the car was and how the government should do something about it.

If you get hurt in a Volt fire it means you've already survived a crash.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9990 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Then why were there stories about dealers dropping prices on Volts to make sure they sold?

I wrote that backwards... The line shut down due to the fact that demand wasn't as high as production levels.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
If you get hurt in a Volt fire it means you've already survived a crash.

But the crashed tested cars caught fire weeks after the crash and were sitting on a lot.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
you should be after the far better looking Fisker Karma

That recall helped bankrupt A123 Systems, which made the batteries. A123 put a lot of eggs in the Fisker basket and when the cars didn't sell well they laid off a lot people. When the recall happened they filed for bankruptcy. There were a lot of Michigan politicians (both sides) who thought A123 was going to be one of the saviours of Michigan's economy.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Looks mostly, and being synonymous half a century later with being a sales flop

But the car's quality wasn't the issue. It wasn't any more unreliable than other cars of the time.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9972 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
Kinda like Solyndra was supposed to help pull us out of the recession since it's a job of the future...

Yep... I went to a conference back in '09 put on by the Michigan Department of Labor and people from A123 were there selling us on their nonsense and how they were going to put Michigan back to work and would soon be building batteries for the 100,000s of electric cars that would be soon rolling off assembly lines, like the closed GM plant in Delaware. (Fisker and Joe Biden assured us that the plant would be churning out Fiskers ASAP). A buddy of mine who is a "progressive green" and I were talking in the back of the room about how stupid this was and that battery technology wasn't ready for the mainstream yet when a guy turned around and yelled at us saying "you guys are wrong, this is going to turn our economy around and it will be like a new industrial revolution". I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

Funny how the jobs of the future are not the jobs of today. People who get jobs of the future are only in them for a short time before they end up in the unemployment line.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 77):
But the car's quality wasn't the issue. It wasn't any more unreliable than other cars of the time.

The thing is that when it comes to looks in the 1950s, there wasn't a ton of diversity. You had the quirky compact cars like the Beetle and Nash Metropolitan. You had some iconic sports car and coupe designs like the BMW 507, Porsche 356 and Corvette. Then there were the really grand cars of the fifties with the massive fins and acres of chrome like the Bel Air, Eldorado, and Lincoln Continental. But the rest of the cars from that era really looked pretty similar. Ford Fairlanes, Chrysler 300s, and Chevy Impalas all looked pretty similar. The Edsel was different, but not in a good way.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
...and batteries are supposed to come in handy when there is a hurricane. Perhaps they should issue warnings in Florida to avoid all Fiskers during a hurricane.

Electricity and water is a bad idea. To be fair, I don't think they are certain how many cars actually ignited or if one just touched them all off.

Quoting na (Reply 80):
Basically right, but if new technologies arent helped by public money, the big money of the mainstream would kill everything new that isnt making big profits from the start.

There's plenty of advances that don't rely on government money. If you cannot convince venture capital, private equity, etc. that a given technology will pay off why should the government listen?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9958 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

The Volt is selling a lot better this year than last year (they've sold almost 20,000 of them year-to-date). Thinking like that also turns a blind eye to the fact that you can take the technology and the platform and build, you guessed it, other car models with it! (who'd have thought of that?). Over time, it will turn into money well spent - it's just going to take a few more years to get there.

I would even argue that it's already money well spent - I've driven a Volt on an extended test drive, and I have to say that it is by far the best car I've ever driven from any American manufacturer. It's well-built, practical and carefully thought out inside and out, it's surprisingly fun to drive and it while it isn't beautiful, it's not god-awful ugly either...and, it's made in the US with almost entirely American IP (though many of the parts are made overseas). You guys should be proud of what you've done, not kick it around like some kind of political football.

Quoting na (Reply 71):

3 billion just for this single car type? Hard to believe. Anyway, if remotely true thats for the cars sold so far. And it will be a lesson for future models so this waste might pay off some day.

That's about how much it cost these days to design and build a single model of car on an existing platform - it can be much higher than that too, depending on what class the car is in. If you're developing a new architecture upon which to build this car, the cost goes up even higher - Volkswagen's new MQB platform (which will underpin all of their FWD models across all their brands in the next 5-10 years) cost them something like $80 billion to develop.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 9949 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 79):
I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

Just ran across a report today that Fisker has had to stop production due to lack of batteries.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9942 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
Just ran across a report today that Fisker has had to stop production due to lack of batteries

interesting. I guess they relied on A123 to make them a product and when A123 built them an inferior product they screwed themselves. This is a good example of why suppliers and manufactures need to work well together so they can deliver a top quality product.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9931 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
There's plenty of advances that don't rely on government money. If you cannot convince venture capital, private equity, etc. that a given technology will pay off why should the government listen?

Because there are technologies or ideas which dont pay off immediately, or are wanted by the public or the governments for other reasons than just immediate profit. If you rely on private money ONLY investments that do guarantee fast returns will be supported, everything else will disappear. Look, who is really interested in the industry to change the propulsion technics for sale today? No one in the big car industry, and particularly no one in the very influential fossil fuel industry. I am absolutely sure that they are holding and hiding patents which would be the dream of the average car owner, but mean less profit for the industry and the tax office.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9883 times:

Quoting na (Reply 85):
If you rely on private money ONLY investments that do guarantee fast returns will be supported, everything else will disappear.

That's not true. There's venture capital, private equity, not to mention that most car manufacturers are quite large, have a lot of money when they aren't going bankrupt, and sell cars all over the world. The whole alternative fuel idea hasn't just popped up, and the benefits really aren't even a question at this point. It's just a matter of who can make it work and bring it to market.

Quoting na (Reply 85):
Look, who is really interested in the industry to change the propulsion technics for sale today?

Anyone who wants to make money. Why would anyone who has the technology to bring a truly practical and competitive electric car to market just sit on the patents? The potential payday is huge, certainly huge enough to justify the investment. The reason that investment wouldn't be made is if the people holding the money, internally or externally, don't believe it will pay off. And if those people aren't willing to risk their own money, they shouldn't be willing to risk everyone else's.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9872 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
I'm glad the Corvair did not make the lists at least not here; Ralf Nadir unfairly made that car the center of his crusade. Actually, it was a pretty good car for most.



Nader said later that the reason he picked on the Corvair was that GM was a bigger target. IF the Corvair had any handling problems at all, it was because there was a pretty good differential between tire pressures, front and rear and some people were just putting the same pressure in all 4, which didn't help matters. Anyway, most handling problems were solved when the 65 and later cars came out and they had basically the same rear IRS as the Corvette with no swing axle problems.

A little bit of trivia........the silicon impregnated, aluminum block was supposed to be originally for the Corvair but for one reason or another the plan was scrapped. Because of this, the Corvair's engine was heavier than originally planned and because most of the weight was BEHIND the rear axle, along with the tire pressure problem, could make the handling kinda quirky.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 19):
Fiats back in the day became so bad they were known as Fix It Again Tony! And thus left the American market till
recently.

I don't know.......I had a 72, Fiat 124 Spyder and it was a pretty good car. The fact that it rusted probably had as much to do with midwestern winters and how roads were treated as much as the lack of rustproofing.


In other news, I once heard a comic state that he was glad that the rear window in his Yugo had a defroster because it kept his hands warm when he was pushing it.


And, yes.......I've owned a Gremlin AND a Vega, so I know good and bad.

[Edited 2012-11-30 19:49:40]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9867 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 87):
Because of this, the Corvair's engine was heavier than originally planned and because most of the weight was BEHIND the rear axle, along with the tire pressure problem, could make the handling kinda quirky.

Porsche 911s, some worse than others, up until the introduction of the 964 had similar handing issues and it gained a reputation for snap oversteer. I've heard it described more than once as like a bowling ball on a string. The Turbo models, which like many turbocharged cars before the 1990s suffered significant lag, were particularly known for backing off the road if the boost came on in the middle of a corner.

It's worth noting that for the most part, each generation of the 911 sees the engine creep forward with respect to the rear wheels. The 991 gained one inch of length but four inches of wheelbase over the 997.

And, since I thought of it, early Porsche 928 was known for not liking paint on roads. Apparently having a tire hit a stripe could make things uncomfortable. The checkered upholstery wasn't so hot either, but doesn't really put it in contention for worst car ever (probably not even worst Porsche ever), although the notion of it replacing the 911 is laughable in hindsight.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9863 times:

Quoting na (Reply 85):
I am absolutely sure that they are holding and hiding patents which would be the dream of the average car owner, but mean less profit for the industry and the tax office.

Yeah, right.........like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ? Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now............(never seen one though, and don't know anyone who has), but they're "out there", thats for sure ! ( Must be all those "greedy" oil companies got 'em all locked up in a vault, huh ?)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9852 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 89):
Yeah, right.........like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ? Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now............(never seen one though, and don't know anyone who has), but they're "out there", thats for sure !

There's that old urban legend about a guy who bought a new car and noticed that it barely seemed to burn any fuel. Then after he had it a day or two he looks out his window in the middle of the night and sees two guys working under the hood who quickly slam it and leave. After that the car gets normal gas mileage.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 9830 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 73):
What makes a bad car differs for a lot of people. As a mechanic I look at a bad car as one that doesn't last very long or is a total pain in the butt to repair. There are plenty of ugly cars that weren't bad to fix. The Aztek is like that. Mechanically it was a fine car. The Cadillac Catera was a pile of junk and sucks to work on. A Ford Taurus from the early 2000s is a pile of junk, from a mechanics point of view, but a lot of people consider them good cars.

The Chrysler K cars were unreliable turds, but they were cheap and easy to fix, which is better than a car that breaks down and is expensive and difficult to repair.

1970s and 1980s GM pickups were rust buckets, but they are sooooo easy to fix and get parts for they are great trucks.

Did you ever get to work on Mustang II's with the V6 and V8? I can imagine it being quite tight under the hood of a Pinto sized auto with those larger engines shoehorned in under the hood. I many saying the "bitchin "Cammarros and Firebirds with V8's
were also difficult to work on.

And I wonder with Edsel. Had the name been different, would the car survived and made it? Again from what I read and saw in news stories from that era Ford Motor Company hyped up the Edsel so much as being revolutionary and complety different than anything else on the road back in the day that when it acutally made it's appearance it was a letdown. It would be like Boeing or Airbus keeping us all in suspense touting their new commercial airliner would be like nothing we've ever seen before but then when it makes it's debut looks like much of what's already flying but maybe the nose looks like say a clitoris and then it would be the laughing stock like the Edsel back in the day.

And within 5 to 7 years Pontiac came out with their vertical design on their grill and it was a big hit. And, what was the story with the 1960 Edsel?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinetype-rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4974 posts, RR: 19
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9809 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
And, what was the story with the 1960 Edsel?

The Pontiac center nose was more sculpted and more in scale with the size of the car. Ford also did something similar with their mid 60's Thunderbirds front end.

The center nose of the Edsel was oversized and was very large for the car. To me it looked like a horse harness. At the time a lot of people thought the car looked like "it was sucking on a lemon", which made a lot of people think the car really was a lemon and most likely unreliable.

It was just the wrong car for the wrong time. too expensive during a recessionary period.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 9791 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
Yeah, I've been "hearing about" them for about 65 years now.....

Guess why.
I have an engineer in my family working for another industry and he says its true that "his" industry hides inventions which would be of great interest for the markets but would minimize the profit of the industry. I would be surprised if that wouldnt be different in the car industry.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
"greedy" oil companies

To put the word "greedy" in quotes in front of "oil companies" is a joke, isnt it? Exxon, 16 billion profit in 2012, Shell 6 billion in the last Quarter, absolutely fair or cause, not greedy at all and well deserved, and you love to pay the fuel prices, you even ask for higher ones, sure...


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 89, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9769 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 74):
when the cars didn't sell well they laid off a lot people.

There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

Quoting mayor (Reply 82):
Nader said later that the reason he picked on the Corvair was that GM was a bigger target.

I always though the Corvair was a very attractive car, especially the Coupe and Convertible. Probably one of the most attractive cars ever built in the US.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 90, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9739 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
a guy turned around and yelled at us saying "you guys are wrong, this is going to turn our economy around and it will be like a new industrial revolution". I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

That would be funny to meet that character now. I'm sure you'll be able to find him next spring when it warms up at an Occupy Wall Street rally.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
Ford Fairlanes, Chrysler 300s, and Chevy Impalas all looked pretty similar.

My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):
The Edsel was different, but not in a good way.

Although I'm not crazy about cars of the 1950s, I think the 1958 Edsel is the best looking one.
I'll take one over a '57 Chevy ANYDAY! Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 77):
You guys should be proud of what you've done

  

Quoting MrChips (Reply 77):
not kick it around like some kind of political football.

Well it is a political football.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
It would be like Boeing or Airbus keeping us all in suspense touting their new commercial airliner would be like nothing we've ever seen before but then when it makes it's debut looks like much of what's already flying

Kinda like the 787.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
To put the word "greedy" in quotes in front of "oil companies" is a joke, isnt it? Exxon, 16 billion profit in 2012, Shell 6 billion in the last Quarter, absolutely fair or cause, not greedy at all and well deserved, and you love to pay the fuel prices, you even ask for higher ones, sure...

Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 91, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

My dad used to have a '59 Continental......black.....just a huge car. My first car was a '62 Mercury Monterey, 2 dr hardtop with a 3 speed on the column. Lately I've liked how the '55-'56 Fords and Mercurys looked.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?

Good grief........that's a tax rate of, well it's more than I can calculate.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 92, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9728 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
My dad used to have a '59 Continental......black.....just a huge car. My first car was a '62 Mercury Monterey, 2 dr hardtop with a 3 speed on the column.

You and your family have great taste in cars.  
Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
Lately I've liked how the '55-'56 Fords and Mercurys looked.

Same here.

Quoting mayor (Reply 91):
Good grief........that's a tax rate of, well it's more than I can calculate.

Lots of tax money that goes to the government to pay for all the goodies and handouts to their constituents.
It's funny how global warming alarmist like to throw around the phrase "greedy oil companies". They have no clue what goes in to drilling for oil and how much money it cost to develop the technology that goes in to producing energy.
If the oil companies were so greedy, they'd fire all of their high-salaried engineers, geologist, offshore rig employees and just lay out a few solar panels and call it a day.

[Edited 2012-12-01 09:25:38]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 93, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9710 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
I'll take one over a '57 Chevy ANYDAY! Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

I liked the '55 better. I learned to drive a stick, driving my Aunt's 2 door sedan.




I learned to drive in one of these......


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/1963_Pontiac_Bonneville_convertible_front.jpg



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 94, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 9706 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Geezer (Reply 84):
like those carburetors from the 60's that will get a full size Cadillac 150 MPG ?

Those were still around in the 1980s. Maybe they were left over stock J.C. Whitney had those tiny 1bbl carbs you could put on anything, including a big block Caddy. I never actually saw one being used and I bet it made the cars run terrible before all the valves burnt from running too lean.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
Did you ever get to work on Mustang II's with the V6 and V8?

Nope. I did do a water pump on a 4 cylinder one once.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

There is a dealership near my mom and dad's in Missouri and I have seen a few around. I bet most of the people who buy them are techies not greenies. I can see why a tech nerd would want one; cutting edge technology. I bet there are also a lot of people who buy them because they are unique and unusual.

Quoting na (Reply 88):
I have an engineer in my family working for another industry and he says its true that "his" industry hides inventions which would be of great interest for the markets but would minimize the profit of the industry. I would be surprised if that wouldn't be different in the car industry.

Getting insane fuel economy isn't something that is being hidden. The engineers I know work hard on it these days. One thing you have to remember about a gasoline engine is that if you run it too lean you will run it to hot and ruin it. That was the issue with those little aftermarket carbs that allowed insane fuel mileage. Too lean=too hot=burnt valves. Cars have become heavier too. If you were to take modern engines and transmissions and put them in some of the light cars of the 1950s and 60s you would have something special.

A couple of weeks ago my students and I wrote out a list of everything that the US government has required on cars since 1968. The list is staggering. Most of the developed world has similar standards and requirements. That stuff adds a lot of weight and cost to cars and light trucks.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):

Laugh all want, it doesn't change the fact that the Volt is actually a very good car. I went into that test drive as skeptical as anyone could be, but after a day in the car, I was left with nothing but a positive impression. I find it totally mind-boggling that for the first time in their history, the American car industry has built a production car that is a true world-beater and all the media does is crap all over it.

It's certainly a better car than those slow, inefficient, unreliable, ugly, wallowing heaps of velour and pot metal that the Big Three used to pass off as an automobile.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 96, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9671 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 94):
those tiny 1bbl carbs you could put on anything, including a big block Caddy. I never actually saw one being used and I bet it made the cars run terrible before all the valves burnt from running too lean.

The fuel economy on the 2bbl versions of the Lincolns didn't get any better fuel economy than the 4bbl versions.
I can't imagine the 1bbl being much better.

Quoting mayor (Reply 93):
I learned to drive in one of these......

I am so jealous.   

Quoting MrChips (Reply 95):

If the Volt makes you happy, then I am happy for you.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 97, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 96):
Quoting mayor (Reply 93):I learned to drive in one of these......
I am so jealous.

Well, it was at a commercial driving school in Aurora. My first day, we took it out on the Illinois Tollway and he told me to step on it. It had a 421 in it and it scared me to death.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 98, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9648 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Never understood what was so special about the '57 Chevy.

Same here. It doesn't look that different than the Ford Crown Victoria, Packard Caribbean, or any number of other cars from the era. Some of the Chrysler 300s had way better performance, so those rank higher on my list.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
There are 3 Karmas in the very small town I live in, surprising considering the price which is well north of 1 million NOK.

I'm not sure what the price differential in Europe is, but in the US they are priced only a bit higher than a Mercedes S550, so any technologically or environmentally inclined buyers (who don't buy a diesel or hybrid S-Class) who don't mind the extra weight, don't drive that much, and like a little more elbow room can probably be swayed without too much trouble.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 95):
I went into that test drive as skeptical as anyone could be, but after a day in the car, I was left with nothing but a positive impression.

It's a lot easier to like the Volt when you aren't writing the check to buy one. That commercial with the girl who wants to go to Hawaii makes me want to bang my head on the wall. The dumb bitch could have bought a Focus, thousands of miles worth of gas, and been to Hawaii and back already for what the Volt costs. At least she didn't say it was grounded to the ground...



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 99, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 97):
Well, it was at a commercial driving school in Aurora. My first day, we took it out on the Illinois Tollway and he told me to step on it. It had a 421 in it and it scared me to death.

Nice.
Look who else took a driver's lesson in a dark red, full-sized GM convertible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjAPRZgOMrQ



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 100, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9610 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
Yet the US government takes in 48 cents for every 2 cents the oil companies make in profits. So tell please tell us who's greedy again?

So what? Be happy that its not the other way around, dirt roads for you and Versailles-style palaces for the oil bosses would be the reality. How would there be streets to drive on if no taxes are paid?


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3604 posts, RR: 3
Reply 101, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9582 times:

Quoting ER757 (Reply 58):
The Opel Cadet

Kadett. I had two of these, they weren't bad, in fact they were pretty sporting for the times. I remember one was built in W Germany and I swore the other S Korea but wiki says that couldn't be.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):

The Edsel flop was called the greatest failure in the history of the auto industry. Now we have the adventure of Government Motors' Chevy Volt. In the 2011 calendar year, "the electric car that runs on gasoline" sold exactly 7,651 vehicles; vehicles that cost the American taxpayer $250,000 each for a total screwing of $3 Billion dollars - that's according to Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

You look very foolish giving us year old Limbaugh talking points. Today, the Volt is considered a success and still on the rise. In fact, it outsold ~155 other models so far this year.

Now that it has racked up 100 MILLLION electric miles (http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_51564413) using no foreign oil and topped customer satisfaction 2 years running, how creative can you be thinking up new reasons to hate? Or will you wait for Limbaugh to tell you why you should hate it....

Quoting falstaff (Reply 71):
The engine was great, they used versions of it for almost 40 years,

Yes, it turned into a spectacularly successful engine, my favorite 4 cyl but didn't it have early head problems?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
There's venture capital, private equity,

Venture capitalists don't care about US defense spending, they don't make money by saving the government money. The government does care, or should. If the government decides it is better for them to save money by investing in alternatives and convincing us to buy them, why shouldn't they?

OH yea, worst car currently sold in NA and destined for many worst lists- the cvt Nissan Versa.

[Edited 2012-12-01 17:48:24]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9581 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
If the government decides it is better for them to save money by investing in alternatives and convincing us to buy them, why shouldn't they?

If the military wants to power their vehicles with alternative or more efficient means, which would make their jobs easier, more power to them. Send out the RFPs and development contracts. Same for the postal service. Maybe if they used hybrids or CNG vehicles they could lose less money than they do. Their private counterparts seem to be plenty interested in such things.

If the government wants to set a minimum mileage standard for all non-combat/non-specialist vehicles they own I'm all for it. Saving everyone money is a great idea. What I disagree with is their setting mileage standards for what I drive and telling me how my vehicle should be powered.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
OH yea, worst car currently sold in NA and destined for many worst lists- the cvt Nissan Versa.

The CVT Nissans are generally heavily criticized, not just the Versa. As far as worst transmissions go, the worst may be the Saab Sensonic. Early variants of Lamborghini's E-Gear (although Volkswagen has some of the best transmissions too) and the semi-auto gearbox in the original Aston Martin Vanquish were also not well loved.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11570 posts, RR: 15
Reply 103, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9562 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 86):
And I wonder with Edsel. Had the name been different, would the car survived and made it?

No. From what I hear, it was the grille that made it bad.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 102):
The CVT Nissans

To me, any Nissan is horrid to look at. They may be reliable, but I can't get over the look of those gawd awful things!

Which brings me to the AMC Pacer: I love the look and the open feeling of the Pacer. But, in 1977, my dad had to do a tune up on one of those things. We spent all day and half the night at my parent's friends' house just figureing out the plugs! That was where and when I learned the true extent of the English language from a man who never ever took the Lord's name in vain.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 104, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 9563 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
Which brings me to the AMC Pacer: I love the look and the open feeling of the Pacer. But, in 1977, my dad had to do a tune up on one of those things. We spent all day and half the night at my parent's friends' house just figureing out the plugs!

Supposedly, the '78-'79 Chevy Monza GT was pretty bad, too. It was said that in the V-8 model that to change the rearmost plugs on each side, that the engine mounts had to be loosened and the car jacked up so you could get to the plugs.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
Kadett. I had two of these, they weren't bad, in fact they were pretty sporting for the times. I remember one was built in W Germany and I swore the other S Korea but wiki says that couldn't be.

If I'm not mistaken, the late 80's version of the Pontiac LeMans was built in South Korea, but it was a copy of the Kadett. Here's what Wiki has to say:

"The Pontiac LeMans was a subcompact car Daewoo LeMans manufactured by Daewoo Motors in South Korea between 1986 and 1994, sold as a captive import, primarily in the North American market until 1993.

Three bodystyles were offered, consisting of a three-door hatchback, a four-door sedan and a five-door hatchback. For the key North American market the three- and four-door models were offered only.

The LeMans took its underpinnings from a European Opel design. In the case of the LeMans, the GM T platform-based Opel Kadett E was the donor vehicle—badge engineered in the form of the LeMans, and later the facelifted Daewoo Cielo. In markets outside of South Korea, the car bore the Asüna GT, Asüna SE, Daewoo 1.5i, Daewoo Fantasy, Daewoo Pointer, Daewoo Racer, and Passport Optima names.

This model was sold in New Zealand under the Pontiac LeMans name."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_LeMans#1988.E2.80.931993

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
(http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html?cmp=OLA_BRAND_6281040_51564413)

Couldn't find a source that was just a smidge more impartial??  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 105, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9553 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):

   If you are referring to the "final generation" Corvair you and I wholeheartedly agree. The first generation Corvair coupes and convertibles were OK looking, was not a fan of the rounded 4 door of generation 1. Nader was and is a pain in the you know what.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 90):
My favorite cars from the 1950s would be the 1958 Edsel convertible, Ford Skyliner, Mercury Turnpike Cruiser, Lincoln Mark II and the 1958 Lincoln Continental.
1958 was a good looking year for Ford/Mercury/Edsel/Lincoln/Continental.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I feel 1958 was a horrid year for auto styling from the General and Ford Co. I hated the bloated hippo look, the reverse angle windows etc. However, the Vette was a looker and the T-Bird was the "least objectionable" design to roll out of a Ford factory in 1958. Thank God GM only made the 58's a one shot deal. The Chevy's of that year were terrible looking. The Edsel, I actually liked the 1959 Grille. Still the same idea but toned down and less bombastic. Back then most of America was convservative and the 58 Edsel Grille was just too much, too big, rounded sort of feminine. If you Google 1961 and 1962 Edsel there are some outstanding concept sketches. Check out the sketch of the 1962 entry. It had the Edsel Grille but it looked sleek, aerodynamic and masculine/athletic.
If I hand a choice between the 58 Edsel, GM big boats, and Mercs I'd go with the Edsel by default. The worst of the bunch were those horrible Mercs. Regarding the Contintentals, as I get older, I appreciate the wild 50's Breezeway look especially the 2 door convertible but interestingly enough, the 58 Continental Grille was in your face, rounded and big like the Edsel. For 59 both Grilles went on a diet and fit their cars much better. Had Edsel gone with the 59 grille in 58 and maybe even threw in a breezway model it just may have worked. And from what I read if you got a depression era strippo version of the Edsel it's price wasn't that much out of the ballpark.

For model year 1958, my vote for best looking of the big Detroit iron was Mopar's cars especially Plymouth and Chrysler. DeSotos were sort of quirky overdone like Mercury and Dodge was still stodgy and old lady matron calling their car the "Mayfair." However the crappy quality made many Plymouth owners my dad included a one hit wonder customer. My dad never again went with a Chrysler product after his 1957 Blue finned Suburban Forward look wagon. Once the 1958 hippos were retired the General and Ford upped the anty and started making some decent looking big cars. With Ford, you still had those fugly ducklings for 1959 and the General beat them again but once it was 1960, they were neck and neck. Chrysler which for those three last years of the 50's were all the rage suddenly fell behind and their early 60's
ware was dated and looked like the stylists slapped them together. The Imperial was cool but Mopar was like Nissan/Datsun with ugly quirky models.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
No. From what I hear, it was the grille that made it bad.

See my above spin on Edsel. And, the Edsel name sounded funny too. It was the perfect storm for failure.

What do y'all think would have happened if Nader went after Chrysler? In the early 60's they were the leader in poor quality.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 106, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9543 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
Regarding the Contintentals, as I get older, I appreciate the wild 50's Breezeway look especially the 2 door convertible but interestingly enough, the 58 Continental Grille was in your face, rounded and big like the Edsel.

As I recall, my dad's '59 Continental 4 door, had ALL the windows (except for the windshield, of course) powered, including the vent windows. The doors were probably more than a foot thick, including the armrest, because the heat and a/c ducts were routed thru them, to the back seat.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3604 posts, RR: 3
Reply 107, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9539 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
If I'm not mistaken, the late 80's version of the Pontiac LeMans was built in South Korea, but it was a copy of the Kadett.

That was 2 generations later and fwd. That model actually won European Car of the Year. I had early 70's Kadett Rallyes, they had a 1.9l motor, rwd and scooted pretty good for the period.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
Couldn't find a source that was just a smidge more impartial??  

It is the most accurate up-to-the-second source of oil-free miles driven. It does not include non-Onstar cars which means no foreign market miles are counted.


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 108, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 9536 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):

Where is this Rush Limbaugh nonsense coming from? I haven't heard a word from him on this topic.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
I hated the bloated hippo look, t

That is what I expect for a 1950s era car.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
Check out the sketch of the 1962 entry. It had the Edsel Grille but it looked sleek, aerodynamic and masculine/athletic.

I see what you mean.
It looks more toned down but looks like most other cars of the early 1960s. The 1958 Edsel is the most unique.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 105):
most of America was convservative and the 58 Edsel Grille was just too much,

Did people have their minds in the gutter back then?   If you've seen some of the 'worst album cover' photos websites, there are a lot of albums sold from this era that had many sexual innuendos that were unintentional. It was a more innocent time.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 109, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9516 times:

Well being British and old enough to have owned most of the [British] cars being knocked on here so far let me give my opinion

Morris Mini-- Fun to drive and economical but it was quite unreliable with . Fuel Pump, Distributor ,constant speed joints
cooling by-pass hose not to mention the clutch. However cars were relatively simply then and if you had a set
of spanners, a hammer and a dry cloth you could fix nearly anything. Was it better /worse than it's
competitors, no about the same and that includes the foreign imports which were coming on the scene at that
time. Most of those did not have to worry about passing the MOT as they had rotted away before the test
was due

Ford Cortina-- Required when family on the way so bought an estate version . Nice car and roomy but corrosion was a
problem, especially around the headlights and at the top of the front suspensions mounts

Morris Marina-- Replaced the Cortina with a 1.8 Marina estate. Never had the sporty image that the Cortina acquired, but
did not corrode, never let me down and by then took the two kids and the dog for holidays , which it was
designed to do rather than flash around racing circuits like Top Gear wanted it to do . I have to admit though the
torsion bar suspension left something to be desired in the comfort range.

Princess--- Very roomy car and extremely comfortable to ride in and again never let me down . Again not a racing circuit
car which is all Top Gear is interested in

Volvo--------Less said the better and although it did not rust the electrics were a nightmare

Rover216-- Kids all grown up now so bought a smaller car for economy as driving a lot on my own and so did not need
big car . Only time it let me down was in the fast lane of the motorway overtaking Lorries when the engine
just cut. Scared the life out of me as I had to find my way across three lanes of busy motorway with a
dead engine. When the RAC man arrived he brought the new part with him as he said they were always
going wrong. A spark enhancer [ coil] made in Japan

So I would submit that the British Car industry in the 60s , 70s and even in the 80s was no worse than most of the imports coming into the country at that time but what the industry suffered from was greed for today rather than investment for profits in the future . A trend which has spread across all of British industry in the last 50 years.
I do also accept that the unions of the day did not help


User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 110, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 9502 times:

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):

I think the British has made the most beautiful cars to come out of Europe.
Everything from the old MG up to the Rolls Royce are gorgeous.
They do get a bad rap though. I've known of several mechanics to take a 70s or 80s era Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas and drop in a Chevrolet 350cu" V8. That way you have a stylish looking car that is reliable and easy to work on.
The Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, Silver Spur, Corniche and the pre-2004 Jaguar Vanden Plas look like palaces on 4-wheels.
Some of the most beautiful cars to grace the face of the earth.  

Even the Hillman Avenger (Plymouth Cricket in the US) was a lovable car.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 111, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9500 times:

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Morris Mini-- Fun to drive and economical but it was quite unreliable with . Fuel Pump, Distributor ,constant speed joints

You haven't mentioned the sub frame, notorious for corroding leading to rear suspension collapse, I'm sure the metal received no more than a coat of primer.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Princess--- Very roomy car and extremely comfortable to ride in and again never let me down . Again not a racing circuit

Most of the moans appeared to be about cooling, the wedge shaped nose restricted airflow, in particular people who towed caravans with them watched the temperature guage soar. Never heard of much else wrong with them.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Volvo--------Less said the better and although it did not rust the electrics were a nightmare

Your the first ex Volvo owner of that era I've ever heard criticise their car., most appeared to be brainwashed by the appearance of safety given off by their armoured car. I found the 200 series very spartan inside, not to my taste at all.
My father had one of the 740 estates and whilst comfortable and reliable it acclerated like an armoured car. I had a turboed 940 and that really moved, but so did the fuel guage !! My last Volvo was a 850 and I felt it was a retrogade step from the 940.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 112, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9498 times:

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 111):
Your the first ex Volvo owner of that era I've ever heard criticise their car., most appeared to be brainwashed by the appearance of safety given off by their armoured car.

The V70 is the best car that we have ever owned, when the kids are out of child seats (couldn't fir 3 child seats in the V70 so had to sell it) I'll buy another one, or whatever Volvo has replaced it with.



User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 113, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):

At least it no longer looks like the box it was shipped in!  
Quoting mham001 (Reply 107):
It does not include non-Onstar cars which means no foreign market miles are counted.

This may be considered nit-picking, but ALL of GM's cars are now non-Onstar. They've gone to a different system.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 114, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9434 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 110):
I think the British has made the most beautiful cars to come out of Europe.

I must agree, though the Italians are close rivals. Not all cars from the UK are great of cause, as the British also built some truly awful and bad ones, but overall, they made the most interesting, and still do. To one day own a classic Rolls or Bentley, Silver Shadow or older, is a dream I´m saving for. Those interiors are second to none.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):
or whatever Volvo

I must say the Chinese are doing pretty well with Volvo, their cars are indeed becoming more attractive lately.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12414 posts, RR: 25
Reply 115, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9422 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 75):
I would love to run into that guy and ask him what he thinks now that A123, after getting money from the Feds and the state, is bankrupt and living on investments from the Chinese.

It makes me wonder why "the Chinese" find the money for such long-term plays yet it seems no Americans have/do.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 116, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

Quoting na (Reply 114):
I must say the Chinese are doing pretty well with Volvo, their cars are indeed becoming more attractive lately.

The Chinese aren't really much involved in current Volvo's, the latest designs S/V60/V40 were all developed under Fords ownership, the first Volvo developed under Chinese control will be the S80 or XC90 replacement.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 117, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9346 times:

Just for the heck of it, here's some pics of the cars I was talking about:



http://www.salguod.net/photos/2010_arthritis_foundation_show/1959_lincoln_mark_iv.jpg


1959 Lincoln Continental



http://www.collectormotors.com/cars_sold/montcl/02.jpg



1955 Mercury Montclair






1956 Mercury Montclair (4 door)



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 118, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9234 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
It's a lot easier to like the Volt when you aren't writing the check to buy one.

It isn't bad if you lease one, from what I hear.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
The dumb bitch could have bought a Focus

Or a Chevy Cruze

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
Supposedly, the '78-'79 Chevy Monza GT was pretty bad, too. It was said that in the V-8 model that to change the rearmost plugs on each side, that the engine mounts had to be loosened and the car jacked up so you could get to the plugs.

I have heard that froma lot of people, their their sub frames all rotted away before I ever got a chance to work on one.

Quoting mayor (Reply 104):
The Pontiac LeMans was a subcompact car Daewoo LeMans manufactured by Daewoo Motors in South Korea between 1986 and 1994, sold as a captive import, primarily in the North American market until 1993.

Those were turds... But they didn't look too bad. I used to see them around a lot. I once wrote a paper of GMs Korean imports when I was in college.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 108):
Where is this Rush Limbaugh nonsense coming from? I haven't heard a word from him on this topic.

I listen to Rush on a regular basis and I think a lot of things attributed to him were never said, at least by him. I don't listen to every single second of the show, but hear enough to know that a lot of people make things up about him. I am always amazed how many people who don't listen to Rush know what he says. How do you know what the man really says if you never listen to the show.

I do know that Rush has bad mouthed the Volt and did say some things that just weren't true. I was listening to him one day and he was mentioning that the car could only go 40 miles before it ran out of electricity. He did not say anything about the regular engine kicking in and you keep driving. He made it sound like it just died when the battery was exhausted. I have heard him knock other electric cars too, so it would appear it isn't just GM he is knocking. On the other hand Sean Hannity has said good things about the Volt and Hybrids in general.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 115):
It makes me wonder why "the Chinese" find the money for such long-term plays yet it seems no Americans have/do.

They have our money.... What makes me upsets is the fact the the US government and the state of Michigan gave these guys money and tax breaks. Then they close Michigan plants and potentialy are going to move to China. Back when I was at the conference where they were bragging about A123 it was stated by the company that at that time most of their employees where in China and nearly all the manufacturing was being done there. So it stands to reason they had a relationship with Chinese business men all the time. So a US company did most of their work in China. They come to Michigan to get tax breaks and cash from our government, then sell out and move back to China when the business model doesn't work.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 119, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9206 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 118):
Those were turds... But they didn't look too bad. I used to see them around a lot. I once wrote a paper of GMs Korean imports when I was in college.

I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car. I was more busy learning to drive on the left than whether the car was impressing me or not.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 120, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9133 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 119):
I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car

I don't think they were all that bad to drive and the initial quality was probably ok. But as they aged they tended to fall apart more than some other cars. Getting parts for them wasn't always easy either. That is typical of imported cars sold by GM. After a few years it doesn't seem like they cared to support those things that well. I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri. I have never worked on one that wasn't junk and if it I needed anything more complex than brake parts it was like pulling teeth. I never find them in the junk yards and when you call the Ford dealer they tell you to call the Mazda dealer and the Mazda dealer tells you to go to the Ford dealer.


If we are talking about worst cars ever I am amazed nobody brought up the Dihatsu Charade (US market model). They sold them 1988-1992 in the US and I think I last saw one operational in 1995 or so. A lot of the models in the the US were EFI, but that was an option. The 1991 Dihatsu Charade holds the distinction of the last new car sold in the USA with a carburetor.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 121, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9123 times:

Worst car ? Every damn car made in India before economic liberalization in 1991, and a handful of cars since.


India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 122, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9111 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):
I don't think they were all that bad to drive and the initial quality was probably ok. But as they aged they tended to fall apart more than some other cars. Getting parts for them wasn't always easy either. That is typical of imported cars sold by GM. After a few years it doesn't seem like they cared to support those things that well. I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri. I have never worked on one that wasn't junk and if it I needed anything more complex than brake parts it was like pulling teeth. I never find them in the junk yards and when you call the Ford dealer they tell you to call the Mazda dealer and the Mazda dealer tells you to go to the Ford dealer.

Ford always seemed to have that problem with any car that they imported over to the states. Once they dropped the model and quit importing it, the parts and service would vanish. Just ask anyone that owned a Cortina, Capri, Merkur, etc.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 123, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9104 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 119):
I rented the Opel version in Ireland in '86. As I recall, it wasn't too bad a car. I was more busy learning to drive on the left than whether the car was impressing me or not.

There was a big difference between the European Kadett and Koprean LeMans in quality.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 120):
I have had similar issues with the Australian Mazda sold in the US as Mercury Capri.

That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 124, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9104 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 108):
Did people have their minds in the gutter back then?   If you've seen some of the 'worst album cover' photos websites, there are a lot of albums sold from this era that had many sexual innuendos that were unintentional. It was a more innocent time.

I believed we both got into a thread about bad album covers Some were so bad they were kitschy. In the 50's I feel most people were in the closet on something. But, outward appearances, facades were the all important thing that drove most people back in the day. If you were different, you were a Communist, Queer or a Juvenile Delinquent.

Back to the Edsel, If Ford Motor Company could have taken the 59 Continental minus that fugly big ears grille and put the 1959 Edsel face instead Edsel could have ridden into the classic elite instead of ride off into the sunset and the stuff of bad jokes.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8067/8232653813_ce11457950_c.jpg


Whereas the Edsel was saddled with that fugly Ford body with the reverse angle wing vent window. Ford and GM featured this hideous design in their '57 and especially 1958's.

Edsel Grille or

Big ears Continental Grill?



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5499 posts, RR: 28
Reply 125, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9059 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 99):

Nice.
Look who else took a driver's lesson in a dark red, full-sized GM convertible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjAPRZgOMrQ

Classic - and I believe I see a Superfly comment (who else would use the Quad 8-track handle?).

---

My worst car ever was a Honda Civic - rusted badly (especially hood hinges and lower doors). My sister bought a similar Civic, a couple of years newer, and they had a completely different hood hinge design, much better and less rust-prone. Car ran fine when it ran, but often simply refused to do a fool thing, electrical gremlins. I know they got better, but it serves to recall that the Japanese manufacturers got the foothold in the US market by building adequate cars really cheaply, migrating to building good cars as they moved forward.

I also had a Vega, which was actually not a bad little buggy - although (full disclosure required) I bought it (a '74 GT) with a bad engine - connecting rod right through the side of the engine - and put an engine in it. $200.00 for the car, $300.00 for the engine, and I drove it for 3 years or so, selling it for $750.00 needing an engine (and that was my fault, I seriously abused it one bad day). It was comfortable, reasonably quiet, got great mileage and moved out pretty well.

Had a Chevy Citation company car, it was not too great, though it was a hand-me-down, had been seriously abused. Example: a new Citation V6, if you never ever ever add or change oil, will run around 26,000 miles before the engine finally uses up the factory fill and, if you ignore the oil pressure warning, seizes. Not bad, actually.

My first car was a 1961 Impala, 348 with a TurboGlide tranny. Great fun, that car was, but dear God in heaven, it used a lot of gas. TurboGlide was not anyone's idea of "efficient." You could (theoretically) push-start it, though, unusual for an automatic.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 126, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9050 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
But, outward appearances, facades were the all important thing that drove most people back in the day. If you were different, you were a Communist, Queer or a Juvenile Delinquent.

Not quite right. The Architecture of the 50s was the most boring ever, a few gems aside. No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1325 posts, RR: 3
Reply 127, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9058 times:

Worst car of all time?

Got to be something old, badly built, unsafe, fuel hogging and with hideous design to boot. Most 1950s/1960s cars then. The absolute winner is probably to be found in the former USSR, though the Americans did their jolly best to beat them at that game, mainly by embracing the worst of eyesores and incorprating "fake", as witnessed by this statement:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 20):
high-gloss simulated walnut grain wood applique

Pardon me while I reach for the bucket and have a second look at my lunch  



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 128, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9047 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 125):
Classic - and I believe I see a Superfly comment (who else would use the Quad 8-track handle?).

{Shhh}
Don't blow my cover.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 127):
Pardon me while I reach for the bucket and have a second look at my lunch

HaHa!
Well that's what was written in the brochure.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3604 posts, RR: 3
Reply 129, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9027 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 127):
Got to be something old, badly built, unsafe, fuel hogging and with hideous design to boot. Most 1950s/1960s cars then. The absolute winner is probably to be found in the former USSR, though the Americans did their jolly best to beat them at that game, mainly by embracing the worst of eyesores and incorprating "fake", as witnessed by this statement:

Nonsense. American cars of the 50's and 60's were not badly built and were not unsafe for the period. Design is in the eye of the beholder and hindsight is not fair, even hindsight can change. Then there is reliability which should be a major issue. It certainly is for me when Im stranded or the car is unavailable in the shop.

A VW Type I fits most of your criteria, vastly unsafe, "unusual" design, built no better than anything else and only wins at fuel mileage. Not exceptionally reliable, #3 cylinder routinely overheated, its main redeeming factor was it was easy to work on and it was cheap.

Fact is, every manufacturer can be guilty. My last Mercedes was one of my worst cars. Reliabilty was garbage despite the cost factor. If we added a cost/reliability formula....


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 130, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9023 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
To me, any Nissan is horrid to look at.

They made the mistake of deciding that it is wrong for mundane cars to look at all mundane. The result is odd looking, but otherwise average, cars. It's a bit like making washing machines look like stealth bombers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 112):
The V70 is the best car that we have ever owned,

Volvos, especially wagons, are cult favorites not unlike Saabs. It's not a particularly small cult either.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Big ears Continental Grill?

The Chrysler 300G/H that copied it ended up being better looking, while the Continentals that came both before it and after it (the Entourage car) are much better liked.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 129):
Fact is, every manufacturer can be guilty. My last Mercedes was one of my worst cars. Reliabilty was garbage despite the cost factor. If we added a cost/reliability formula....

All of the great new toys and luxury features can be more trouble than their worth sometimes. That was definitely the case with my dad's Buick Roadmaster.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7239 posts, RR: 5
Reply 131, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9006 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):

Volvos, especially wagons, are cult favorites not unlike Saabs. It's not a particularly small cult either.

Damn shame being that the V70 was dropped from the US line up and they don't sell the V60 in the US either. The XC70 is basically the V70 but doesn't handle as well and isn't as comfortable.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6084 posts, RR: 29
Reply 132, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9003 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 122):
Merkur

I always liked the XR4Ti. It was a nice looking car, By the mid 1990s they were nothing but headaches for their owners. I used to play a racing game on my IBM XT called (Lombard Rally) and the car you drove was a XR4Ti.

Quoting na (Reply 126):
No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.

I agree. My neighborhood was built in the 1950s (my house in 1954) and every one of them is rather dull looking.

Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s? I haven't even seen one in a junkyard in a long time. I used to live near a Cadillac dealer that sold them and had their sign up until about 1994. The Sterling was built by Rover, but I know they shared a lot of parts with Honda/Acura.



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.

That may be, but in these parts Ford dealers blame that thing on Mazda.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3604 posts, RR: 3
Reply 133, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8980 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
That car was a Ford Australia design built around the Ford Laser/Mazda 323 mechanicals. Mazda had nothing to do with it's design and development.

Wouldn't Mazda 323 mechanicals imply at least something to do with design and development? Wiki says so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Laser

Interesting history on the Capri though, I always think German. Ford imported this one to fight another Mazda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury...Generation_.281991.E2.80.931994.29


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10368 posts, RR: 14
Reply 134, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8935 times:

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
So I would submit that the British Car industry in the 60s , 70s and even in the 80s was no worse than most of the imports coming into the country at that time but what the industry suffered from was greed for today rather than investment for profits in the future . A trend which has spread across all of British industry in the last 50 years.
I do also accept that the unions of the day did not help

This used to go around, here in the states, about why the Brits drank warm beer. It was because Lucas made their refrigerators.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 135, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8934 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 134):
This used to go around, here in the states, about why the Brits drank warm beer. It was because Lucas made their refrigerators.

Lucas is also the reason why British manufacturers didn't bother backlighting switches. At night it doesn't matter which one you press: nothing happens.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 136, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

Quoting na (Reply 126):
Not quite right. The Architecture of the 50s was the most boring ever, a few gems aside. No decade ever built houses with so little taste and lasting style.

Again it all comes down to taste. My feeling being most stuff built from the 70's on especially houses are horrid and cheap looking and quality. Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst. The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn. Whereas some of the 1950's Mid Century Modern Ranchers are beauties to behold. If money were no object I'd ensconse myself in one of them with the big fireplace and built in furniture of course with a pool and built in "Hi Fi!" Superfly would love my media room with a mid 60's Zenith or Roundie 21" built in the wall Color TV adopted for Hi definition, and a vintage Saul Marantz tube amp, pre amp and tuner with a Thorens turntable and top of the line Ampex or Teac reel to reel deck. Sort of retro tiki ultralounge!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 130):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 124):
Big ears Continental Grill?

Take a look at the way the headlights are diagonally stacked on the 58-60 Lincolns. Especially the 58 looks like big ears.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5499 posts, RR: 28
Reply 137, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8916 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):

Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s? I haven't even seen one in a junkyard in a long time. I used to live near a Cadillac dealer that sold them and had their sign up until about 1994. The Sterling was built by Rover, but I know they shared a lot of parts with Honda/Acura.

Remember? We lived them. My Mom had an 825 ('87), my Dad, an 927 (1991).

The '87 was beautifully-equipped, and smooth as silk to drive (though a little underpowerd). Nothing on it worked with any measure of consistency, and interior parts fell off with regularity. Rover were so eager to get to market with it in the US, they did not even bother tom move the hood (bonnet) opening handle from the right side to the left side. Really.

The '91, my Dad bought the week Sterling announced their withdrawal from the US market, and a fellow who had purchased it (for something like $36,000.00) returned it to the dealer and traded for a new Saab, I think. My Dad bought it with around 1,000 miles for $18k or so, as the dealer was afraid of being stuck with it. That one actually lasted well, and (other than programming the clock) was a pretty good car. It had the stronger engine, too.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst.

I call it the "lots of sh*t going on" school of architecture. Turrets? Check. Twelve different exterior finishes? Check. Twenty seven rooflines? Check. Gas lights? Check. Not impressed.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 138, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 132):
Does anyone remeber the Sterling cars from the 1980s?

Oh yes. I good friend of our family back in Gary, IN had bought one of those new. Their other car was a 1982 Buick LeSabre diesel when they were new. After bad luck with both of those, they would eventually buy a 1994 Buick Roadmaster. It's still running till this day.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Whereas some of the 1950's Mid Century Modern Ranchers are beauties to behold.

  
Yes indeed but it would have to be the late 1950s Jetson era ranch style home.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
a pool and built in "Hi Fi!" Superfly would love my media room with a mid 60's Zenith or Roundie 21" built in the wall Color TV adopted for Hi definition, and a vintage Saul Marantz tube amp, pre amp and tuner with a Thorens turntable and top of the line Ampex or Teac reel to reel deck. Sort of retro tiki ultralounge!

Let's throw a fondu party!  
I can also bring the Cold Duck and champagne fountain.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 139, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8917 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 137):
I call it the "lots of sh*t going on" school of architecture. Turrets? Check. Twelve different exterior finishes? Check. Twenty seven rooflines? Check. Gas lights? Check. Not impressed.

But built like sh*t and energy hogs. For the many folks who bought them it will be premature built in obsalesence. My two cousins both single and in their 50's and 60's with some disposable income bought two fugly McMansions next door to each other. As they get older schlepping up and down all those stairs and the inefficient HVAC are giving them some pause as to why they went that route. If I were fortunate to be in their financial situation as mentioned earlier I would have gone with a 1950's mid century modern rancher. Much less schlepp factor and better built. Thinking of my old age if I even make it that far. Again, if in their position I would hope this is my final move. The next move would be exit stage right in a pine box. Then, it wouldn't much matter.

BTW, how did the 1970's first generation Ford Granada/Mercury Monarchs fare in the car survey? They were a step up ride and equipment wise from their predessor the Maverick.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 140, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8910 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 139):
BTW, how did the 1970's first generation Ford Granada/Mercury Monarchs fare in the car survey? They were a step up ride and equipment wise from their predessor the Maverick.

The Granada, Monarch, Versailles is a popular punching bag but they are very solid and reliable. Also many gear heads use the the super-tough 9-inch differential rear axles for their Mustangs & Cougars.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 141, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
My feeling being most stuff built from the 70's on especially houses are horrid and cheap looking and quality.

  

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 136):
Most McMansions are laughable at best money pits at worst. The multi level "Neo Classic" architecture looks like someone was on a bad acid trip and had Saudi Oil Men big money to literally burn.

I actually rather like McMansions. Ideally, I like something low, sleek and sprawling, but McMansions can be quite nice since they are usually new, have ample yards, plenty of open space over multiple levels and large garages. The one feature I find rather tacky is those homes that have brick facades but siding on the rest of the house, as if you can't see around the corner when you drive by.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 138):
After bad luck with both of those, they would eventually buy a 1994 Buick Roadmaster. It's still running till this day.

How many of the luxury features still work? My dad's 96 model had problems with the sound system, power antenna, and seat heaters while the automatic air suspension began working with a mind all its own. Also the Roadmaster had an anemic AC fan and was in contention for worst fake wood trim ever.

One thing was that you could always pick it out in a dark parking lot thanks to the green light strip on its gargantuan C pillar. That thing could completely hide a Navigator on the interstate.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 142, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8899 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):
How many of the luxury features still work? My dad's 96 model had problems with the sound system, power antenna, and seat heaters while the automatic air suspension began working with a mind all its own. Also the Roadmaster had an anemic AC fan and was in contention for worst fake wood trim ever.

Last time I saw them in 2009, everything appeared to be in working order. I was amazed that it had no rust after 15 years considering all the salt they put on the roads there in the winter.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15723 posts, RR: 26
Reply 143, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8896 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 142):
I was amazed that it had no rust after 15 years considering all the salt they put on the roads there in the winter.

My dad's never had any issues with rust. Mechanically it was pretty solid for a long time of pretty heavy use, it was just the extras that started to fail. The "wood" really was laughable though.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39819 posts, RR: 74
Reply 144, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8895 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 143):
The "wood" really was laughable though.

I know two Roadmaster owners of this era. The wood trim isn't an issue. My grandmother has one and the only thing I had to replace was a power windows switch. I like the large woodgrain panel that stretches the width of the car.



Bring back the Concorde