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Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4831 times:

Well, its finally happened.

Congratulations Palestine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/abbas-gi...th-certificate-20121130-2akk8.html


I sincerely hope this brings you a "new" beginning, and that you grasp and make the most of this opportunity.

              


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
202 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

Marc

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:31:34]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Congrats Palestine. Now, prove that you want peace. The road has been hard and will continue to be hard, Israel is definitely not alone in erring in this conflict...

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries

Really?

Look, Palestine is far from perfect, but Israel isn't the beacon of perfection. The status quo isn't working and only 9 countries in the world seem to want to continue with it.

You can disagree, but calling everyone else "uncivilized" is pretty childish

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:05:52]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineN537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4801 times:

Hope it leads in the right direction. Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs. Just because Israel was declared by the UN, times have changed and the Arab side has to deal with the consequences of their failed bets. They really should have said yes in 1948. THey would have gotten much better quality of land to, as Israel was mostly given areas in the Negev desert.

Hope it leads to peace. Funny that if you read the reactions by groups in Gaza, many were against the bid. They said the PA did not coordinate the UN bid procedure with other palestinian factions, and that it might lead to more reprisals from Israel.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4790 times:

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3657 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4775 times:

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs.

So you think the situation as is should be left to continue? The other choice is to drive anyone out and have Israel take over the territories they are currently occupying. What was wrong was that the international community has let this situation become the status quo and remain so for so many decades while the demographics of the area are continuously being altered through uninterrupted settling.


User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Congratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Marc

Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?


Pu


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4679 times:

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 6):
ongratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.

1)It did. Israel gave up land twice for peace gestures.One with Sadat and one with Arafat in 1993.2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.3) Do you recognize Israel right to exist as Arafat did? No?Yes?

[Edited 2012-11-29 16:20:40]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6360 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4629 times:
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Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness. These are the countries that voted against:

The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.

As for those who abstained, good luck getting a 41 country block to form anything resembling the UN.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1962 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4628 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.

I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

Anyway, most countries that abstained did so under US pressure.

I think this is a great step for the Palestinian leadership that has chosen peaceful diplomatic methods to have something to show. Otherwise, there is no motivation for Palestinians not to use violence.

Congratulations to Abbas.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!

Exactly. Times have changed and most Palestinians simply recognize that Israel is a reality now.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.

[Edited 2012-11-29 17:24:10]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4623 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.



Cruel way to put it.So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

So,again,I ask,do you recognize the two states? And Israel right to exist?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3657 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4609 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices. In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4586 times:

We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
And Israel right to exist?
YES. YES. YES. Very few people don't. This is getting so tiring

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  

Well, to be fair, this is a HUGE event



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices



1)I will protect that statement,as I will defended the US against any "Nationalism" of any kind,foreign or domestic.But you know as well I "The Palestinian effect"still does exist here.

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Quoting Pu (Reply 8):
Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?

Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated.

Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

After 1948, the UN has done nothing for Israel. It hasn't mediated wars, it hasn't kept the Arabs in check...and oh yeah...Israel is the only member who is barred from holding a seat on the Security Council..you know, the non-permanent, rotating seats.

Also, whenever Israel attacks Muslims, even if Muslim countries initiated attacks, who does the UN condemn? Israel.

Israel Forever!

Marc


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3657 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

The process started a long time ago, it just took all the imperial countries some time to completely pull out. Even Cyprus did not become an independent state until the 60s.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.

The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them. But again, look at the W Bank, a place with little to no Palestinian violence and yet it is segregated and settlers are creating outposts all over the place with the final goal being the erosion of Palestinian lands. Keep in mind that W Bank has been off limits for Israel to the eyes of the international community since the creation of Israel. I will be the first one to say that Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel, but Israel should also halt all settling in the W Bank immediately, as in yesterday. The more this is allowed to happen (settling) the harder it becomes for a solution to be found. While the long-term effects of rocket throwing and killing each other can be somehow reversible, the results from the settling of Palestinian lands cannot, the Palestinians are fighting against the clock on this.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

About time, maybe the UN now can step in and finally arbitrate this mess. But I do not think that the terrorist Hamas government is legitimate. They need real elections.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3072 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 18):
The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them



I'd like the think that.too, but I have to hesitate in saying that the media is giving Hamas center stage right now.And that's not healthy.The PLO still exists,BTW,and they're not in the news. Well.maybe that's a good thing.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.

The Palestinians can't become a country until they get some recognized status, but between the PA's refusal to recognize Israel, the desire of the the leading parties who get power in both Israel and the Palestinians by bashing each other, and Israel with their policy in the occupied territories, Gaza and so on, not much will happen.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2890 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4518 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN

Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

So, when you moving to a civilized country then.....?   

Seriously though, your attitude needs to change, like (most) the rest of the worlds has.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc.

This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable, directly through action taken in the ICC, this will apply to Palestine too.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.

You don't need to participate in them, but you keep coming back.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

He meant politically speaking.....

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.

I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid

[Edited 2012-11-29 18:45:38]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

I'm American and proud. I changed my flag to show unity with the State of Israel.

I will not be addressing the US being in a grouping of "uncivilized countries." You obviously did not understand what I meant, and to clarify what I was saying might just get me banned.

Marc


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.

Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go. If the Palestinians have good jobs and a good livelihood, they wont bother Israel and Israel doesnt have to keep going in there. The terrorism and the rockets have to stop. That has to be the condition for the Palestinians in order for them to have a permanent State. Israel has to remove the settlements..its time for them to go. If the settlers want to stay, let them stay on in a Palestinian state.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Listen, i support Israel, and the majority of the World has said that Israel has a right to defend itself. But what has led to the rockets and the terrorists? Give the Palestinians their state...end the collective punishment, and then i bet you they wont bother Israel. I mean for Christ sake there is what..40 percent unemployment in the Gaza Strip? Thats a LOT of people just sitting around with nothing to do and having an axe to grind. True, Hamas is a terrorist organization and they have royally screwed up in Gaza...but Israel can ease the blockade and still interdict weapons flow. At the end of the day, they just wanna live their lives and not be bothered by anyone. I bet most Israelis would agree as well.


25 jetblueguy22 : I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they
26 powerslide : I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think. Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls
27 Cadet985 : YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Pa
28 thegreatRDU : Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel... Grow a pair..... Thank you all and have a good evening
29 Post contains images TheCommodore : I understood what you meant exactly thanks, its there in black and white. So powerslide, if, as you say, Israel is not concerned about what the UN th
30 caliatenza : Okay East Jerusalem then. Anyways, all im saying is....its Holy to three religions, why not share the city...
31 Mir : It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism. The Palestinians can have their capital anyw
32 Post contains links powerslide : Government foreign policy... More on this: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-join...tinian-statehood-un-212950844.html I'm really interested what this
33 Cadet985 : The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in
34 pvjin : Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides s
35 Post contains images PHX787 : Your sarcasm is duly noted Honestly though maybe this is more libertarian coming out of me but In my opinion we should never aide palestine in the fi
36 jetblueguy22 : Although I see where you are coming from it is a holy places for Christians and Muslims as well. The Jewish people very well may have been there firs
37 Newark727 : As I said in another topic, some of the dollars to Cairo (though probably not all) are a result of the 1978 Camp David accords when we were trying to
38 Mir : It's been the home to people in general for longer than that. You can bet that there are Palestinians whose ancestors were living in that area long b
39 seb146 : Maybe because Isreal is a "recognized" nation but Palastine is not? Both should exist. Maybe if one recognized the other, things would change? I wond
40 Cadet985 : Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the t
41 Post contains links racko : Fun fact about Palestinians having to recognize the right to exist of Israel. Likud, the party of Netanyahu, does not recognize the right to exist of
42 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-w...GNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3 If the territory of Palestine is a separate state, according to the UN, anyt
43 Post contains images zkojq : Congratulations Palestine. It seems that the UN works quite nicely when one superpower or another can't veto any progress made. Locally (and somewhat
44 Quokkas : "Formal recognition of statehood is something that is done bilaterally, not by the United Nations." seems to have been the mantra in the days leading
45 777way : The counries that voted against it are like a joke look at the list,a few US influenced tiny Islands that need not even be named, Czech Republick and
46 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Could some of the usual pro Zionist state of Israel explain to me why they do not like it when the Palestinians resort to arm struggle they call them
47 einsteinboricua : Congratulations Palestine! May this step finally pressure Israel to take the issue seriously. So, it's OK for Israel to have preconditions for anythin
48 jfk69 : Say that about the Vatican also?
49 Braybuddy : Great news for Palestine, and I'm delighted that we voted in favour. Hopefully it won't be too long before the state of Palestine will enjoy full memb
50 Post contains links and images Mir : And Israel has retaliated, by moving forward with plans for settlement expansion that will significantly cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the W
51 777way : Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.
52 pvjin : Yep, it should be definitely just part of Rome instead of its own city state. In my opinion whole place should be made just a huge museum and anyone
53 Tupolev160 : It is even hard to call some of these places "countries" at all... Palau? Common, they just wanted some touristic promotion free of charge. They're p
54 Post contains images Maverick623 : >reply=1 Well, THAT didn't take long Is about the worst justification you could possibly use for ANY argument regarding who gets what. Shameful. B
55 victrola : I would love to see my country end all aid to Israel.
56 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict and I don't think they are as cynical as many here think. I believe th
57 Cadet985 : Not when terrorists and Hamas are using innocent civilians as human shields. Not so long as the US holds a seat on the security council...at least no
58 powerslide : Everyone is aware of the palestinian situation. This little performance at the UN circus won't change the conditions in Gaza. It will however make th
59 lewis : What date would that be? Israeli settlements are built on Palestinian land illegally, the people that moved there knew that too well. If they wish to
60 caliatenza : the problem with this is that settlements are definetly illegal. Even the US has said so and they will have to come down in any deal. If the settlers
61 Cadet985 : The date would have to be agreed upon by both parties once the Palestinians decide to return to the table. That isn't fair for me or anyone to specul
62 caliatenza : that would be fair...the government or individuals could buy their homes from the settlers. I would support that.
63 Mir : I want to think that's true. But they're making it so damn difficult. -Mir
64 DeltaMD90 : Israel and Palestine's wants overlap... neither can have 100% of what they want. Israel is being firm in what they want and fighting for their intere
65 Post contains images TheCommodore : That's another problem altogether.... once again, Religion. Israel being one of them. Your right, it is absolutely unbelievable, especially from Cana
66 Cadet985 : Israel never walked away from the negotiating table. It was Abu Mazen who did. Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiat
67 DeltaMD90 : They are prone to hypocrisy like everyone else. I'm just saying I believe the average Israeli wants peace just like 99% of the world's population. I
68 cws818 : Palestine would like to be recognized as an independent state. Is that a precondition? If so, is it an unreasonable precondition?
69 TheCommodore : I am not talking about the past. I mean now, today, since the Israelis think its smart to announce the building of 3000 new homes in a new settlement
70 BMI727 : The Israelis want peace, but they don't need peace. They can afford to do it only on their terms: keep settlements, no Palestinian state, whatever wa
71 Mir : And then when the rockets start coming from the West Bank, the Israelis will have to do some looking in the mirror to figure out why. The actions the
72 777way : Exactly that seems to be the plan and I would not be surprised if those supporting them in the delay tactics are involved in this game as well.
73 einsteinboricua : Let's say that Abbas decides to go to the table without a freeze in settlements. What's to assure Abbas that Netanyahu won't beat around the bush unt
74 DeltaMD90 : Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves. Israel has helped make things worse, but the Palestinians are far from sa
75 victrola : There are so many Jewish settlements on the West Bank already that the time for a 2 state solution is probably passed. What does Israel plan to do wi
76 Maverick623 : Nice try. You said: Having a "presence" does not make it "the home". Oh, and BTW, there has been a non-Jewish presence in that land for even longer.
77 Cadet985 : By the Bedouins? They live in peace and harmony with the Israelis, and in fact, many Bedouins serve in the IDF. Same with the Druze on both areas. Ma
78 DeltaMD90 : ...and that completely ignores the question: should we give the Native Americans all of their old land back? If not, why? Can you see how "historical
79 Maverick623 : Thank you for the history lesson. Now if you'll please answer the question:
80 powerslide : I don't think the Israeli's mind all that much. Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back
81 Mir : Expansion of Israeli settlements is entirely on Israel. We're talking about the West Bank here, Gaza is another issue. I'm not aware of any significa
82 powerslide : No, it's happening already. Its been well behaved because of Israeli occupation and check-stops. When Israel left Gaza it turned into a terrorist bre
83 TheCommodore : I really think we have established this already, so lets not labor the point shall we. Israels action yesterday, in announcing the building of 3000 n
84 Newark727 : What other options were there? Israel bombs the place repeatedly and yet basic building materials for constructing anything out of the rubble are tig
85 powerslide : Oh god, not the UN! Not quite. Some will be upset over this for a week or two then business will be back to normal. Who is going to do it? No one has
86 Newark727 : If that's so, the discussion about Palestine shouldn't really be something that bothers you... I don't think that's really what he meant. Though your
87 TheCommodore : All goes to show Israel in its true light. Israel is doing it to themselves. Israel, has been shown time and time again that it can't be trusted, thi
88 powerslide : Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of groun
89 Mortyman : Just remember powerslide, that when you are critizising the UN, you are also critisizing it's members who happen to include Canada and the USA. The U
90 SOBHI51 : Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for the
91 Pu : Might you address a few of my points? 1. I'm not sure about your calculations, but I wouldn't call Russia or China "allies of the Jewish state," woul
92 Newark727 : "Can't behave," or weren't given a chance, owing to the reasons I listed above? As long as Israel continues to wield so much power over Gaza as to st
93 777way : Very true, whats needed by the international community is sanctions and suspension of diplomatic relations, trade etc.with Israel, if only they would
94 einsteinboricua : Except that NATO has no duty to Israel whatsoever. Many complained when NATO enforced the no-fly one over Libya, imagine if it were to start another
95 Quokkas : Quoting einsteinboricua "And what about those in the West Bank? Haven't they behaved properly?" This is the question that no one of the apologists for
96 Cadet985 : The same will hold true for Hamas... Marc
97 DeltaMD90 : I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here! I call myself pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because, like I said before, my beliefs a
98 Post contains images Newark727 : Thus is the plight of a moderate on the Internet. Reasoned positions that weigh the concerns of both sides are for people who don't get into two-hund
99 SOBHI51 : Hamas is a part of the Palestinian problem not the solution, if it disappear things might change a little, but not much, can you say the same about I
100 Cadet985 : Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around. It's not often you and I agree on something, but we can agree that Hamas is a big part
101 Post contains links Mortyman : In response to Palestine has gotten observer status at the UN, Israel hold back money that should have been paid to the Palestinian Authority. The Isr
102 Post contains links NAV20 : Sincerely hope not, Cadet985 - for the sake of the 'Jewish people' to whom you refer, as well as the rest of us. If history, over the last two thousa
103 DeltaMD90 : I was just thinking... why did the Obama administration vote no? Not trying to be cynical, but there is no election he has to worry about, and it seem
104 einsteinboricua : Maybe because he doesn't want Israel's ultraright to win the upcoming elections? By voting to appease Israel, the Netanyahu coalition has other issue
105 santi319 : And this is exactly what I mean! The world needs to know more about what the Israeli Government does to the Palestinians. As a second generation Pale
106 caliatenza : How do most Palestinians view Israelis in general?
107 santi319 : In the West Bank I know Israeli extremist are seen as terrible as Muslim extremists. But we don't talk about that. You wake up with a wall in your fa
108 powerslide : That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either. Religi
109 caliatenza : That's horrible ;(. I know there are many peace organizations in Isreal but they also get drowned out by the extremists. I think if the intifada hadn
110 SOBHI51 : This is a two way street, why don't you sent all the immigrants after 48 to where they came from and return the land to the true owners not to the th
111 MD11Engineer : Sounds a bit like a 1930s plan by the Nazis for the European Jews: Deport them all to Madagascar. Jan
112 DeltaMD90 : Why would any country want to just accept millions of people? You can be 1: for Palestinians and 2: not want millions of refugees in your country at
113 TheCol : That's starting to change. The Palestinian Christians in the West Bank have a lot of political backing from the UK, Canada, and the United States. Ov
114 BMI727 : That entire idea is all based on a racist premise: "They're all brown skinned towel heads, they can take care of each other."
115 Post contains images WestJet747 : More anti-Canada sentiment from thegreatRDU, how shocking Part of it was likely influenced by our biggest ally and trading partner, but if you cared
116 powerslide : How about we give back all the land that was "stolen" over the course of mankind. Wars change lines on borders, the Arabs, who are quite good at losi
117 Post contains links TheCommodore : Ok. I was just trying to establish where you stood on this latest development from Israel (3000 new homes and another illegal settlement) As you have
118 SOBHI51 : We can afford to loose a couple of wars, but Israel can not loose one, again go back to history and learn. Time is not on the side of Israel neither
119 yyz717 : Agreed. I'm proud of my government's strong support of Israel. and our vote on this issue. It's very unfortunate that so few Western countries chose
120 DeltaMD90 : Well in my book, pro-Israel doesn't mean "support them blindly." Some people say they do not have a right to exist--I believe they do (at least now,
121 einsteinboricua : Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally? What has Israel done to deserve being called an ally? The US and UK are allies becaus
122 yyz717 : Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism,
123 Post contains images powerslide : What does this mean? The Arabs don't have the capacity or capability to remove Israel by force. When the oil runs out in the middle east so will the
124 Mir : Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue. There are plenty of countries in the world that accept Jews, why does Israel need to k
125 Newark727 : That's not good enough. Palestinians are not in good shape and Israel is effectively their government, or near enough to it as long as they don't hav
126 BMI727 : They may believe in those values, just not enough to let Palestinians in on the human rights, rule of law, and freedom of movement bits. Besides, it'
127 DeltaMD90 : And I don't even buy that argument. I find it hard to believe honestly. It seems like a made up argument, supporting Israel because they're more "Wes
128 Post contains links NAV20 : Have to disagree,yyz717. Israel is in flagrant breach of most, if not all, the 'values' to which you refer. For a start, they take religious discrimi
129 BMI727 : The entire idea rests on the premise that Arabs are savages who cannot be trusted to form and run their own states or allow anyone else to run theirs
130 powerslide : The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them. The Arab world has enough money to get them out o
131 einsteinboricua : You might want to check up on that because all the Gulf Monarchies don't and they are considered allies as well. Heck, look at Pakistan, another "all
132 Newark727 : If Israel is going to make regular military incursions, restrict travel, and ban various imports to these Palestinian locations, the responsibility f
133 WestJet747 : I don't disagree with you...but don't you think that, even subconsciously, we make some decisions in solidarity with the US in knowing that will in s
134 Maverick623 : Unless you are an Arab. Unless you are an Arab. Unless you are an Arab. Unless you are an Arab. Israel is no better at treating Muslims than Saudi Ar
135 BMI727 : Good luck finding an Palestinian that will disagree with that. Give them their own independent state and nobody will need to babysit them. America ha
136 777way : Exabtly why Palestine is us and we are Palestine.
137 DeltaMD90 : I'd agree, but the Palestinians are not a free state, and many (BUT NOT ALL) problems do result from Israel What's with the race thing? Do we need to
138 Post contains images TheCol : Canada would have voted no regardless. The current government has made their position very clear, even before Obama came to office. Canada has a big
139 Mir : I'm not sure that's really religion. We've seen countless times how trying to force people of different cultures (a category that includes religion b
140 Post contains links caliatenza : http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardb...e-brainwashing-behind-the-rockets/ ...if this is all true, then i can understand why Israelis would be afraid.
141 Mir : Even for Hamas it's not primarily a religious issue. They hate Israel because of what Israel has done (move into land that they perceive is theirs),
142 yyz717 : Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews. Moreover, Arabs are exempt from military service. Nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights in I
143 Post contains images zkojq : I'm kind of curious about this. Israeli always claims to be a 'rule of law' kind of place, yet it seems that permission for all these new properties
144 SOBHI51 : Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they ar
145 NAV20 : yyz717, I took the trouble to research the rights that non-Jewish residents DON'T have in Israel, and addressed Post 128 to you, explaining the situat
146 Post contains links Quokkas : I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution. This is the official position of Lik
147 777way : I think its a religious issue now, the holy war element has entered in it. for many non-Arabs. he was referring to Sadui Arabia. Yes, and its not onl
148 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Agree that 'that seems to be the size of it,' Quokkas. But - literally just in the last few minutes - there appear to be increasing signs that, at lo
149 damirc : I have the same feeling too. Reading the Jerusalem Post online (taking into account that the readers/comments will be strongly biased to one side) ju
150 Post contains images damirc : Bibi kinda back-pedalled on that... Last I've read he says they're just planning to build in E-1, not necessarily building D.
151 777way : So true, a US professor who visited Isreal for some Enviromental vegetation related convention and travelled far and wide in the country dealing with
152 KiwiRob : Why, the Israelis never gave fair market value to the land they confiscated from the Palestinians to build these settlements so why should the Palest
153 yyz717 : Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely in Israel. Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you af
154 KiwiRob : What's this got to do with the topic at hand, stop deflecting.
155 Cadet985 : Really? Because I've been all over Israel - from the Golan Heights in the north to Eilat in the south - and have seen Israeli Arabs practically every
156 DeltaMD90 : What is that supposed to mean??
157 Post contains links SOBHI51 : http://newvoices.org/2010/05/03/the-...heid-is-paved-with-license-plates/ http://nigelparry.com/diary/ramallah/plates.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/sha
158 powerslide : Those sites aren't bias at all.... I have no comment settlement expansion in the West Bank, that is not my problem nor concern. However I do believe
159 DeltaMD90 : While I agree that "occupiedpalestine" probably has bias a lot of what they mentioned can be easily proven facts. While there might be "spin" attache
160 Cadet985 : SOBHI51, you might as well be linking to Hamas websites. I know most of the information - especially about highway travel - to be untrue. Even the BB
161 Post contains images WestJet747 : Central Africa seems to be a bit of a gong show these days, how about we go send some rockets their way and take it over because we think they'd be b
162 SOBHI51 : Just follow the news still happening every Friday as we speak. Look my main objective is to find a solution to this problem, i am over 60 years old a
163 Maverick623 : I can assure you they do not. And just why do you think that is? Having one right =/= having all the rights. Don't be obtuse. This thread is about Pa
164 777way : You had said in a post here or the other thread that most Israelis might be wanting peace with Palestinians, which is not the case.[Edited 2012-12-03
165 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Thanks for the explanation, that makes it somewhat clearer now. Seems unfortunate, we all know who it was. And I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, bu
166 777way : Any idea why no sactions are being put on Israel? I mean WTF, what is the world waiting for, they are not even suspending stuff for a whilr, instead a
167 yyz717 : Perhaps worldwide sanctions against Pakistan would be more suitable due to your treatment of your Christian minority. Israel already lives with sanct
168 DeltaMD90 : I stand by that. They might want some conditions unreasonable for the Palestinians, and I'm sure many of them wish the Palestinians weren't there (no
169 DeltaMD90 : So they do no wrong? They have no errors to correct? They are perfect? If you say no, then you're in the same boat as us--we don't think they're perf
170 bueb0g : And took a lot more. Politically isolated. More than that. Jerusalem first fell to the Muslims in the 630's... Yeah, a Jewish presence. There's also
171 777way : Yes they are more than welcome but most of the world is not Christian and could not careless, as for some western countries doing that, highly unlike
172 DeltaMD90 : Well I'll accept that. But did you catch how you can switch "Israel" and "Palestine" around in the phrase "Israel doesn't want peace and wants the ot
173 Newark727 : I'm not going to pretend to speak to the demographics of the popular opinion, but I've seen it floated that Israel's parliamentary structure tends to
174 Post contains links AR385 : Interesting editorial today in Spain´s El País. http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1354305323_870740.html Key points: 1) Está claro
175 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Neatly put, TheCommodore. I did a bit of research and found a UN report on likely inward migration to Israel over the next 30 years or so (I'll post
176 Post contains images TheCommodore : What ? Have you bothered to read ANY of the many many links provided to you, completely obliterating that belief ? Hate to pee on your parade, but NO
177 Cadet985 : That's why in Israel, the cost of gas is the equivalent of $8-$10 per gallon, yet in much of the Arab world, it costs MUCH less. I remember a few yea
178 Maverick623 : No. Remember, not only do the oil-rich states gouge everyone else, they often subsidize their own industries.
179 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Wonder what Urge, really means.... $$$$ I'd imagine,and lots of e'mm. Perhaps some more weaponry too, for good measure, just in case those Palestines
180 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Just 'dunno,' myself, TheCommodore. I didn't expect much in the way of change from Palestine being granted 'observer status' - but, given the results
181 Post contains links and images zkojq : From the BBC: The irony being that Israel is only too happy to then accuse Hamas of violating the Geneva Convention. And the Arab League has stated (b
182 Post contains links NAV20 : He can only serve two terms anyway, under the Constitution. However, as far as the rest of the free world is concerned, it looks as if Israel is goin
183 777way : ^ The west cant but the rest of the wolrd can.
184 Post contains images NAV20 : Meaning Pakistan, 777way? Sure, they might be able to do something. But I can't see sanctions from there - or, indeed, anywhere but Europe and the Uni
185 777way : Pakistan has trade with Israel ??? I meant Japan, Korea, China, India, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and other such places, the insignificant ones could suspe
186 NAV20 : Sorry for the misunderstanding, mate - but same problem, the Israeli economy doesn't depend on them? Sure, they can all have a moan at the UN, but th
187 777way : ^ Every little bit counts, the west will never sanction Israel, though I hope they wake up and do, I dont know how was South Africa dealt with by the
188 NAV20 : Good question, 777way. In general terms, no-one really 'dealt with' South Africa; in large part, the place finally realised, for itself, that the eco
189 santi319 : Which from the looks of it, the only potential vote against a potential sanction would be from the U.S.!
190 powerslide : Good. Any idea why Pakistan, being the peace loving country they are, harbour terrorists? IMO, Pakistan is no better than Iran. Central Africa doesn'
191 777way : Your reply to this sarcastic joke post is enough to show where you are coming from.
192 powerslide : Thanks for your opinion.
193 Post contains images SOBHI51 : Of course the weapons will be dropped after they pay for it, i don't see them giving it away, and then stay away and look so innocent. BTW i have a p
194 Post contains links TheCommodore : I agree with this 100% Its so bloody obvious, yet we (the west) keep flogging the dead horse to death, over and over. Whats that saying again... don'
195 Post contains images powerslide : Blood diamonds! Quite the opposite actually, I'm more in the demolition side of things The clock in your room sure. Things are a little different in
196 damirc : Well, Powerslide. I am sorry to say, but I do increasingly believe that Israel will not survive the next 50 years. And it will not be destroyed from
197 DeltaMD90 : Biased circle? All I see is rationality and objectiveness coming from most posters here. You keep talking about wiping populations out and REFUSE to
198 Post contains links NAV20 : Don't think I've ever quoted myself on here before! But I have a good reason - I made a mistake in that post! According to this Jerusalem Post articl
199 lewis : Lets be frank about something, Israel can build the new houses it may need in so many places that are within the borders widely accepted by the inter
200 Post contains images TheCommodore : Don't worry to much about it NAV20. When it comes to the ME, there are so many facts and figures, its easy to things mixed up now and then. I saw a q
201 777way : They cant for long, eventually they will have to pasy the price for it, its so obvious to the world now whats happening, doubt it will be yolerated f
202 jetblueguy22 : This thread has gone off topic and will be locked to all future posts. Blue
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