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Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Well, its finally happened.

Congratulations Palestine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/abbas-gi...th-certificate-20121130-2akk8.html


I sincerely hope this brings you a "new" beginning, and that you grasp and make the most of this opportunity.

              


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
202 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

Marc

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:31:34]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Congrats Palestine. Now, prove that you want peace. The road has been hard and will continue to be hard, Israel is definitely not alone in erring in this conflict...

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries

Really?

Look, Palestine is far from perfect, but Israel isn't the beacon of perfection. The status quo isn't working and only 9 countries in the world seem to want to continue with it.

You can disagree, but calling everyone else "uncivilized" is pretty childish

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:05:52]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineN537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

Hope it leads in the right direction. Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs. Just because Israel was declared by the UN, times have changed and the Arab side has to deal with the consequences of their failed bets. They really should have said yes in 1948. THey would have gotten much better quality of land to, as Israel was mostly given areas in the Negev desert.

Hope it leads to peace. Funny that if you read the reactions by groups in Gaza, many were against the bid. They said the PA did not coordinate the UN bid procedure with other palestinian factions, and that it might lead to more reprisals from Israel.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs.

So you think the situation as is should be left to continue? The other choice is to drive anyone out and have Israel take over the territories they are currently occupying. What was wrong was that the international community has let this situation become the status quo and remain so for so many decades while the demographics of the area are continuously being altered through uninterrupted settling.


User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Congratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Marc

Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.


User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?


Pu


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 6):
ongratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.

1)It did. Israel gave up land twice for peace gestures.One with Sadat and one with Arafat in 1993.2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.3) Do you recognize Israel right to exist as Arafat did? No?Yes?

[Edited 2012-11-29 16:20:40]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4567 times:
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Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness. These are the countries that voted against:

The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.

As for those who abstained, good luck getting a 41 country block to form anything resembling the UN.



MGGS
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1946 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.

I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

Anyway, most countries that abstained did so under US pressure.

I think this is a great step for the Palestinian leadership that has chosen peaceful diplomatic methods to have something to show. Otherwise, there is no motivation for Palestinians not to use violence.

Congratulations to Abbas.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!

Exactly. Times have changed and most Palestinians simply recognize that Israel is a reality now.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.

[Edited 2012-11-29 17:24:10]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.



Cruel way to put it.So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

So,again,I ask,do you recognize the two states? And Israel right to exist?



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices. In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
And Israel right to exist?
YES. YES. YES. Very few people don't. This is getting so tiring

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  

Well, to be fair, this is a HUGE event



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4514 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices



1)I will protect that statement,as I will defended the US against any "Nationalism" of any kind,foreign or domestic.But you know as well I "The Palestinian effect"still does exist here.

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Quoting Pu (Reply 8):
Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?

Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated.

Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

After 1948, the UN has done nothing for Israel. It hasn't mediated wars, it hasn't kept the Arabs in check...and oh yeah...Israel is the only member who is barred from holding a seat on the Security Council..you know, the non-permanent, rotating seats.

Also, whenever Israel attacks Muslims, even if Muslim countries initiated attacks, who does the UN condemn? Israel.

Israel Forever!

Marc


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

The process started a long time ago, it just took all the imperial countries some time to completely pull out. Even Cyprus did not become an independent state until the 60s.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.

The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them. But again, look at the W Bank, a place with little to no Palestinian violence and yet it is segregated and settlers are creating outposts all over the place with the final goal being the erosion of Palestinian lands. Keep in mind that W Bank has been off limits for Israel to the eyes of the international community since the creation of Israel. I will be the first one to say that Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel, but Israel should also halt all settling in the W Bank immediately, as in yesterday. The more this is allowed to happen (settling) the harder it becomes for a solution to be found. While the long-term effects of rocket throwing and killing each other can be somehow reversible, the results from the settling of Palestinian lands cannot, the Palestinians are fighting against the clock on this.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

About time, maybe the UN now can step in and finally arbitrate this mess. But I do not think that the terrorist Hamas government is legitimate. They need real elections.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3061 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 18):
The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them



I'd like the think that.too, but I have to hesitate in saying that the media is giving Hamas center stage right now.And that's not healthy.The PLO still exists,BTW,and they're not in the news. Well.maybe that's a good thing.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13078 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4480 times:

The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.

The Palestinians can't become a country until they get some recognized status, but between the PA's refusal to recognize Israel, the desire of the the leading parties who get power in both Israel and the Palestinians by bashing each other, and Israel with their policy in the occupied territories, Gaza and so on, not much will happen.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4456 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN

Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

So, when you moving to a civilized country then.....?   

Seriously though, your attitude needs to change, like (most) the rest of the worlds has.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc.

This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable, directly through action taken in the ICC, this will apply to Palestine too.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.

You don't need to participate in them, but you keep coming back.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

He meant politically speaking.....

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.

I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid

[Edited 2012-11-29 18:45:38]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

I'm American and proud. I changed my flag to show unity with the State of Israel.

I will not be addressing the US being in a grouping of "uncivilized countries." You obviously did not understand what I meant, and to clarify what I was saying might just get me banned.

Marc


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4432 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.

Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go. If the Palestinians have good jobs and a good livelihood, they wont bother Israel and Israel doesnt have to keep going in there. The terrorism and the rockets have to stop. That has to be the condition for the Palestinians in order for them to have a permanent State. Israel has to remove the settlements..its time for them to go. If the settlers want to stay, let them stay on in a Palestinian state.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Listen, i support Israel, and the majority of the World has said that Israel has a right to defend itself. But what has led to the rockets and the terrorists? Give the Palestinians their state...end the collective punishment, and then i bet you they wont bother Israel. I mean for Christ sake there is what..40 percent unemployment in the Gaza Strip? Thats a LOT of people just sitting around with nothing to do and having an axe to grind. True, Hamas is a terrorist organization and they have royally screwed up in Gaza...but Israel can ease the blockade and still interdict weapons flow. At the end of the day, they just wanna live their lives and not be bothered by anyone. I bet most Israelis would agree as well.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4539 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.

I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.
As a republican I guess I also am not supposed to support this but I actually do. This may be the first step to granting these people what they deserve, a sovereign government. Hopefully it will be led by peaceful leaders but we will have to see. I am a supporter of Israel but if they really want peace they should prove it by supporting a Palestinian state that is a peaceful ally. Though something tells me that may be an unattainable goal at this point in their relationship... There will always be problems in the world, but if we can fix conflict this the world will be a much better place to live.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable,

I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think. Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls to do anything about it. They should send another letter to Israel or pass another resolution condemning their actions. Much good that does.....


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4565 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24):
Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.

YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

Marc


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...

Grow a pair.....
Thank you all and have a good evening



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 23):
You obviously did not understand what I meant,

I understood what you meant exactly thanks, its there in black and white.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 26):
I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think.

So powerslide, if, as you say, Israel is not concerned about what the UN thinks/dose, because, and I quote....

"Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls to do anything about it"

Then why has Israel been working overtime, lobbying every member nation of the UN, NOT to support Palestine in its bid?

Hardly the sort of behavior you'd expect to see from someone who couldn't care less is it ?

They care alright, and you know it,

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
YES it would be bad!!!!!

Well too bad, because today, its one step close to happening !   

[Edited 2012-11-29 20:51:44]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4516 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):

YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

Okay East Jerusalem then. Anyways, all im saying is....its Holy to three religions, why not share the city...


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.

The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4505 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 28):
Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...

Government foreign policy...

More on this:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-join...tinian-statehood-un-212950844.html

Quote:
Baird goes so far as to suggest Canada will take retaliatory measures against the Palestinians for forcing the statehood issue onto the world stage.

I'm really interested what this means. Political action? Military? Probably just talk. We did just finish our mission in Afghanistan and Libya, could use more work, gets boring training all the time. I doubt Israel would welcome any foreign troops on its land any how and not like they need the help.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4488 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.

The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Marc


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4487 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid

Your sarcasm is duly noted    Honestly though maybe this is more libertarian coming out of me but In my opinion we should never aide palestine in the first place because of their illegitimacy as a nation...but now the world recognizes them. We are now seen as the bad guys for not recognizing them. But that also doesn't mean we are responsible for feeding them  
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 25):
I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.

Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4465 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Although I see where you are coming from it is a holy places for Christians and Muslims as well. The Jewish people very well may have been there first, but things change over time. Saying we were here first so it is ours is against what kids are taught in preschool! Why people can't share joint holy lands when religion promotes peace and caring for others is beyond me.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress

I don't understand it either, perhaps they hope the dollars will equal influence. Which it very well may. But it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

As I said in another topic, some of the dollars to Cairo (though probably not all) are a result of the 1978 Camp David accords when we were trying to settle things between Egypt and Israel and IMO they've proved pretty helpful for that alone.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):

The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

And who do you think the Palestinians are? Not just Muslims alone. They're people who have lived in these places, have ancestry in the area going back far longer than the founding of Islam. Take your line of reasoning to its conclusion and there are way more people than just the Jewish who have claims on the Holy Land beyond them, too. I'm not sure who can claim to be the true descendants of the Assyrians and Phoenicians these days though. Also, good job putting shrines in scare quotes.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4439 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

It's been the home to people in general for longer than that. You can bet that there are Palestinians whose ancestors were living in that area long before Muhammad was a gleam in his mother's eye.

The who's-land-is-who's argument is complicated enough from a political standpoint, there's no need to add religion to it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11582 posts, RR: 15
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4444 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

Maybe because Isreal is a "recognized" nation but Palastine is not? Both should exist. Maybe if one recognized the other, things would change?

I wonder, and this is just me thinking out loud, if Isreal hates Palastine so much because Bethlehem is in Palastine and Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus and Palastine is both Muslim and Christian? Stupid reason, I know. Or, maybe because Palastine is both Christian and Muslim, they would not follow Jewish/Israeli law? Another stupid reason, I know.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4409 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):

Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table. In terms of Gaza, they have no regard for the "legitimate" Palestinian government. Remember that it was not Israel who walked away from negotiations.

Marc


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Fun fact about Palestinians having to recognize the right to exist of Israel.

Likud, the party of Netanyahu, does not recognize the right to exist of Palestine:

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Politics/likudplatform15.html


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4340 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-w...GNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

If the territory of Palestine is a separate state, according to the UN, anything the Israelis do there comes under international law and not just under Israeli law.

This is big. That's why Israel and the US put so much effort into preventing this from happening.

 

The Palestinians have a self-evidence right to a state.

[Edited 2012-11-30 02:37:21]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4330 times:

Congratulations Palestine. It seems that the UN works quite nicely when one superpower or another can't veto any progress made. Locally (and somewhat interestingly), the conservative New Zealand government voted for this (after being silent for a few days so as to avoid extra lobbying from Israel and the US) while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting. Prior to a few days ago, I would have expected the opposite to occur.

Now for a fair peace-deal that addresses settlements, blockades, rockets, right of return and borders.....

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.

It is rather ironic. It seems that the UN isn't so biased when you have the power (through the US) to veto stuff you don't like.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
It's called self defense.

I don't generally consider bombing residential neighborhoods, using white phosphorous over built up areas and other such war crimes self defense.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):

The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24):
Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go.

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.

Agreed, so long as it is on the Palestinian side of the pre-1967 borders. I'm sure Israel would be rather annoyed if the Palestinians were trying to dictate the location of their capital.



Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

"Formal recognition of statehood is something that is done bilaterally, not by the United Nations." seems to have been the mantra in the days leading up to the vote. The US and its supporters, including some of those that abstained, argued repeatedly that Palestine could not be recognised unless they had a binding agreement with Israel. Oddly enough, they seem to not recall that there was no such agreement or requirement when Israel was proclaimed a state and subsequently recognised by the UN.

The double standards and hypocrisy continue to the bitter end.

However, now comes the hard part. We can only hope that there is a willingness on both sides to come to a permanent peace and that the threats and intimidation that were made prior to the vote are not carried out. That would simply be churlish.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting.

Although some of the Labor caucus were in favour of a "Yes" vote, the Australian Prime Minister was wanting to vote "No" but was prevailed upon by the argument that it would harm Australia's position in the rest of the region. Australia did not wish to be seen to be going against the US either and all Australian politicians love to travel on Israeli-funded sightseeing tours, so an abstention was seen as the most pragmatic solution.

[Edited 2012-11-30 06:02:09]

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

The counries that voted against it are like a joke look at the list,a few US influenced tiny Islands that need not even be named, Czech Republick and Panama, hilarious.

MUBROOK FALASTEEN !


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Could some of the usual pro Zionist state of Israel explain to me why they do not like it when the Palestinians resort to arm struggle they call them terrorists and when they resort to diplomacy via the UN this in not acceptable either.
I can explain one way then, Israel is not willing nor wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict.
As for Jerusalem, why don't they declare it as an open city ruled by an elected council representing the 3 religions and politically neutral.
Also i find some of the posting here very disturbing, calling for killing and destruction. Surprised it's coming from people living in countries known for there defense of human rights and spreading democracy all over the world.  



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

Congratulations Palestine! May this step finally pressure Israel to take the issue seriously.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 40):
Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table.

So, it's OK for Israel to have preconditions for anything, but it's not OK for Palestinians to ask for a freeze in settlement constructions (settlements deemed by the international community as illegal and that are in the area designated for Palestinians)?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinejfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4155 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.

Say that about the Vatican also?


User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5678 posts, RR: 32
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Great news for Palestine, and I'm delighted that we voted in favour. Hopefully it won't be too long before the state of Palestine will enjoy full membership at the UN. It's going to happen eventually, so the sooner it happens the better.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

And Israel has retaliated, by moving forward with plans for settlement expansion that will significantly cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/wo...h=F9D5A77AA44A856DB57AA53B25CBD28E

Are they actually trying to justify the Palestinian anger? The West Bank is not the Israeli's problem, yet they keep pushing on them. If you wanted to get a more anti-Israel group elected in the West Bank, this would be the perfect way to go about doing it.   

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 32):

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-join...tinian-statehood-un-212950844.html

Quote:Baird goes so far as to suggest Canada will take retaliatory measures against the Palestinians for forcing the statehood issue onto the world stage.

Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3990 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 48):
Say that about the Vatican also?

Yep, it should be definitely just part of Rome instead of its own city state. In my opinion whole place should be made just a huge museum and anyone living there should just go and find a place from Rome to live in.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
These are the countries that voted against:

The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.

It is even hard to call some of these places "countries" at all... Palau? Common, they just wanted some touristic promotion free of charge. They're pretty unknown to the rest of the world and now suddenly everyone will hear about [that great political power of Palau] them.

Czech Republic? I'm very surprised.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries

>reply=1

Well, THAT didn't take long  
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
center of tourism

Is about the worst justification you could possibly use for ANY argument regarding who gets what. Shameful.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area.

Boo hoo. Ever considered that maybe, just maybe, if both sides cooperated, it wouldn't be an issue for the religious of any faith to see any of the holy sites in any jurisdiction?

BTW, The Dome of the Rock is more than just a "shrine", unless you consider the Western Wall and the CHS as "shrines".

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

You missed the roughly 1000 years before 1947 when it, well, wasn't.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinevictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3965 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

Marc

I would love to see my country end all aid to Israel.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
I can explain one way then, Israel is not willing nor wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict.

To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict and I don't think they are as cynical as many here think. I believe they think they're doing what is right, and they don't quite understand the ramifications of their actions, but I think they mean good

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???

(Please don't ignore me)

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death.

And much of the city pre-dates Christianity and the Christians have a big presence there. Your point? Should Eastern Europe give all their land to the pagans??

Come on, Cadet985, stop being so bitter. We all win some and lose some battles. I won't lie, I wanted the Palestinians to be a state, but there have been many decisions I disagreed with that became reality. Go forward with a good attitude, griping about it won't change, what, 150 UN countries' minds. If you think Israel has a bigger challenge, go forward and think of ways for Israel to respond to this new set of events... not to be cliche, be a part of the solution, not the problem



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
I don't generally consider bombing residential neighborhoods, using white phosphorous over built up areas and other such war crimes self defense.

Not when terrorists and Hamas are using innocent civilians as human shields.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 49):
It's going to happen eventually, so the sooner it happens the better

Not so long as the US holds a seat on the security council...at least not until Hamas no longer rules Gaza.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 54):

Go ahead and do some research. There has been a Jewish presence in the land of Israel for all of that time. Tel Aviv, in fact was founded in 1909, Tsfat - the home of Kabbalah - there are synagogues there that date to the 1300's and 1400's. Read up on your history.

Quoting victrola (Reply 55):

Okay...the US ends aid to Israel. Any politician that agrees to it will be voted out of office quickly. I do not personally know of a single Jew who has missed an election since they were old enough to vote. Also...a lot of the technology we use was developed over there. Go to Tel Aviv, Rishon Lezion, and other cities around there. Practically all the big technology companies have major research labs over there. So okay...end all aid. Maybe the Israeli Government "strongly encourages" those companies not to do as much business with the US. Oh yeah...little known fact...Israel allows us to have military hardware prepositioned there in case we need to use it against say...Iran. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating war with Iran - yet...but if that day comes, I'm glad to know we have assets that can be on the move quickly, as opposed to waiting for MSC ships that can take weeks to get there.

Here is my proposal:

Gaza stays as is. Nobody negotiates with terrorists (namely, Hamas). What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date - meaning buildings built, people living in them. In terms of movement, keep the status quo. Any car entering or exiting the area known as the West Bank is checked at a military checkpoint - this holds true for Israelis, too (I've been through this as a passenger, and all I had to do was show my passport or an ID from the US). It's a 10-30 second or so check that doesn't take any longer then a toll both. I would allow one or two government buildings in Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is not divided in half, and they accept Ramallah as their capital. All religious shrines become accessible to all - mainly, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and all the Christian sites in Bethlehem and Nazareth. These, along with the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Western Wall (along with any sites I'm leaving out) regardless of location are accessible to anyone at anytime, with security checks that are currently in place.

Marc


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 51):
Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.

Everyone is aware of the palestinian situation. This little performance at the UN circus won't change the conditions in Gaza. It will however make the Palestinian Authority more sovereign in the West Bank. This UN recognition has nothing to do with hamas and gaza, if anything it separates the two entities even more.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3838 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date

What date would that be? Israeli settlements are built on Palestinian land illegally, the people that moved there knew that too well. If they wish to stay then they can become part of the new Palestinian state. If they do not like that option, they can move to Israel. The way the settlements have been built all over the place (with strategic reasoning behind that planning) make it impossible to just divide based on that, you end up with a swiss cheese-looking Palestine. I don't see why the settlers have to be protected in such a way. Did they even have any expenses incurred whatsoever when moving there or was it a free relocation paid by Israel?


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Gaza stays as is. Nobody negotiates with terrorists (namely, Hamas). What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date - meaning buildings built, people living in them. In terms of movement, keep the status quo. Any car entering or exiting the area known as the West Bank is checked at a military checkpoint - this holds true for Israelis, too (I've been through this as a passenger, and all I had to do was show my passport or an ID from the US). It's a 10-30 second or so check that doesn't take any longer then a toll both. I would allow one or two government buildings in Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is not divided in half, and they accept Ramallah as their capital. All religious shrines become accessible to all - mainly, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and all the Christian sites in Bethlehem and Nazareth. These, along with the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Western Wall (along with any sites I'm leaving out) regardless of location are accessible to anyone at anytime, with security checks that are currently in place.

the problem with this is that settlements are definetly illegal. Even the US has said so and they will have to come down in any deal. If the settlers want to stay, they should stay on in the new Palestinian state...or relocate to Israel.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 59):
What date would that be? Israeli settlements are built on Palestinian land illegally, the people that moved there knew that too well. If they wish to stay then they can become part of the new Palestinian state. If they do not like that option, they can move to Israel. The way the settlements have been built all over the place (with strategic reasoning behind that planning) make it impossible to just divide based on that, you end up with a swiss cheese-looking Palestine. I don't see why the settlers have to be protected in such a way. Did they even have any expenses incurred whatsoever when moving there or was it a free relocation paid by Israel?

The date would have to be agreed upon by both parties once the Palestinians decide to return to the table. That isn't fair for me or anyone to speculate on. I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes (again, this would be something both governments would have to work out)...and I've been to one Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and the homes were HUGE.

Marc


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3793 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 61):
The date would have to be agreed upon by both parties once the Palestinians decide to return to the table. That isn't fair for me or anyone to speculate on. I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes (again, this would be something both governments would have to work out)...and I've been to one Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and the homes were HUGE.

that would be fair...the government or individuals could buy their homes from the settlers. I would support that.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict

I want to think that's true. But they're making it so damn difficult.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 63):
I want to think that's true. But they're making it so damn difficult.

Israel and Palestine's wants overlap... neither can have 100% of what they want. Israel is being firm in what they want and fighting for their interests... it is making things harder but beyond that I doubt there is anything really cynical. (There are, of course, extremists on both sides, so finding examples for either side hardly convinces me)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 48):
Say that about the Vatican also?

That's another problem altogether.... once again, Religion.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
Also i find some of the posting here very disturbing, calling for killing and destruction. Surprised it's coming from people living in countries known for there defense of human rights and spreading democracy all over the world.

Israel being one of them.

Quoting 777way (Reply 51):
Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.

Your right, it is absolutely unbelievable, especially from Canada. I had thought they were more or less independent of the US.
How wrong I was !

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict and I don't think they are as cynical as many here think.

C'mon now. DeltaMD90,
Israel has just announced more settlement building, and you say you think Israel wants "a peaceful resolution to the conflict"

Sorry, but it doesn't look like Israel really wants that to me.

The settlement building is a massive part of the problem, Israel knows this, but just goes on and on.
Well as far as Im concerned, Israel should be dragged to the negotiating table, by the US, and made to capitulate, and told to STOP building.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
Come on, Cadet985, stop being so bitter.

  

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Read up on your history.

Nothing stays the same forever..... move along......



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65):
Israel should be dragged to the negotiating table, by the US, and made to capitulate, and told to STOP building.

Israel never walked away from the negotiating table. It was Abu Mazen who did. Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions. Also, no government can force another to do anything. Do you really think Obama is going to call Netanyahu, and tell him to stop the building, and he'll just say okay?

Marc


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65):
C'mon now. DeltaMD90,
Israel has just announced more settlement building, and you say you think Israel wants "a peaceful resolution to the conflict"

They are prone to hypocrisy like everyone else. I'm just saying I believe the average Israeli wants peace just like 99% of the world's population. I won't deny that it's no coincidence the settlement building commenced right after Palestine got semi-statehood...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66):
Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions.

Palestine would like to be recognized as an independent state. Is that a precondition? If so, is it an unreasonable precondition?



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3710 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66):
Israel never walked away from the negotiating table.

I am not talking about the past.

I mean now, today, since the Israelis think its smart to announce the building of 3000 new homes in a new settlement, the day after the Palestinians get the UN vote.

Bring Israel into the UN, and ask them why?

What was the "motivation" for Israel, to announce such an Inflammatory signal towards the Palestinians at this time ?

It is nothing more than sheer provocation, on the side of the Israelis, and nothing else.

We hear Bibi, get up in front of the worlds press, and say time and time again, that Israel wants peace.

Yeah.... well, if this is how he, and his government, go about showing that, then its a load of complete and utter, Bullshit !

And I really don't think to many people here, in this forum, who would argue otherwise. Except for Cadet985

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
I'm just saying I believe the average Israeli wants peace just like 99% of the world's population.

Then, why do they continue to vote governments in, that are opposed to "decreasing" settlement building, instead of constantly expanding like they continue to do on a daily basis ?

I'm afraid DeltaMD90, I'm not as sure as you seem to be about, the Israelis really wanting peace.
I now really believe, its just lip service, spewed out in enormous volumes, by the Israeli Government PR machine, while all the time they continue to build, build, build, knowing full well, that if they can keep up this "illusion" of wanting peace etc, there will be no viable land left for Palestinian inhabitants to have.

It is criminal, that's what it is !

[Edited 2012-11-30 23:23:40]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69):
I'm afraid DeltaMD90, I'm not as sure as you seem to be about, the Israelis really wanting peace.

The Israelis want peace, but they don't need peace. They can afford to do it only on their terms: keep settlements, no Palestinian state, whatever walls and checkpoints they please, and so on. A real solution helps them, but not that much. Not enough to make meaningful concessions. If the Palestinians insist in rolling back settlements or having a state of their own the Israelis can just leave the table and keep their modern, successful country and allow the Palestinians to remain in their ghettos.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, need an agreement to make any sort of life for themselves with freedom and not being second class citizens. As it is, they are effectively living under apartheid and can be stomped by the Israelis at any time. I'm not convinced anyone can or would do anything to stop it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 70):
If the Palestinians insist in rolling back settlements or having a state of their own the Israelis can just leave the table and keep their modern, successful country and allow the Palestinians to remain in their ghettos.

And then when the rockets start coming from the West Bank, the Israelis will have to do some looking in the mirror to figure out why.

The actions the Israeli government has taken in the West Bank are entirely consistent with a strategy of provoking the Palestinians into striking back, at which point Israel could justify swift and severe military action, and then rinse and repeat. I really hope somebody in that government is smart enough to see that that strategy won't work long term.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day ago) and read 3657 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69):
I now really believe, its just lip service, spewed out in enormous volumes, by the Israeli Government PR machine, while all the time they continue to build, build, build, knowing full well, that if they can keep up this "illusion" of wanting peace etc, there will be no viable land left for Palestinian inhabitants to have.

Exactly that seems to be the plan and I would not be surprised if those supporting them in the delay tactics are involved in this game as well.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66):
Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions.

Let's say that Abbas decides to go to the table without a freeze in settlements. What's to assure Abbas that Netanyahu won't beat around the bush until there are so many settlements that a Palestinian state will be confined to Gaza alone? The West Bank itself is slowly being taken over by Jewish settlements (settlements which I'm sure Israel will claim and theirs in the event of an agreement).



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 71):
The actions the Israeli government has taken in the West Bank are entirely consistent with a strategy of provoking the Palestinians into striking back

Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves. Israel has helped make things worse, but the Palestinians are far from saints and they haven't been the easiest to make peace with.

I'm well aware of Israel's stubbornness, but Palestine itself has its quirks that do nothing to help the peace process. Add in firing rockets and it is easy to see why Israel does some of the things it does (which, of course, is no excuse for some of Israel's actions, but as they say, it takes two to tango)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinevictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 73):
The West Bank itself is slowly being taken over by Jewish settlements (settlements which I'm sure Israel will claim and theirs in the event of an agreement).

There are so many Jewish settlements on the West Bank already that the time for a 2 state solution is probably passed. What does Israel plan to do with the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank? Give them Israeli citizenship and voting rights? Expell them? The Jews may one day find themselves a minority in a so called Jewish state.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 76, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Go ahead and do some research. There has been a Jewish presence in the land of Israel for all of that time.

Nice try. You said:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Having a "presence" does not make it "the home".

Oh, and BTW, there has been a non-Jewish presence in that land for even longer. And it's very telling that you ignore this post:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Read up on your history.

I was taking college-level world history and humanities classes my freshman year of high school. I am very confident in "my history".



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 77, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76):
Oh, and BTW, there has been a non-Jewish presence in that land for even longer. And it's very telling that you ignore this post:

By the Bedouins? They live in peace and harmony with the Israelis, and in fact, many Bedouins serve in the IDF. Same with the Druze on both areas. Maybe you're thinking of the Philistines...but they lived in what is now Gaza.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Read up on your history.

While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.

Marc


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 78, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 77):
While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.

...and that completely ignores the question: should we give the Native Americans all of their old land back?

If not, why?

Can you see how "historical homelands" and the "Jews inhabiting Israel 5773 years ago" is not the best of justifications?

Times have changed, and we are not living in the past. Instead of adopting the same, tired arguments that aren't convincing anyone (as we see with public opinion changing) come up with new solutions and arguments, help fix the problem. There isn't some global conspiracy against Jews, we simply think a lot of Israel's actions are unwise. Like me, I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.

I listen to and consider everyone's arguments. Perhaps you should try to seriously analyze the other side's arguments (or at least the arguments from neutral parties) if you haven't already.

Sticking to your guns is a losing battle, considering the changing opinions. Move from you position a bit and help convince people of a solution that will help Israel, respect Palestine, and garnish enough support to make it a reality



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 79, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 77):
While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.

Thank you for the history lesson. Now if you'll please answer the question:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 71):
And then when the rockets start coming from the West Bank, the Israelis will have to do some looking in the mirror to figure out why.

I don't think the Israeli's mind all that much. Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years. Palestinians are their own enemy, they hold their future in their own hands. So far it doesn't look too well for them, Israel on the other hand, is doing just fine.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 81, posted (1 year 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74):
Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves.

Expansion of Israeli settlements is entirely on Israel.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74):
Add in firing rockets and it is easy to see why Israel does some of the things it does

We're talking about the West Bank here, Gaza is another issue. I'm not aware of any significant violence from the West Bank in recent years. Yet they get rewarded with more settlements. It seems no good deed goes unpunished.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 80):
I don't think the Israeli's mind all that much. Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years.

You say that as if you'd like it to happen.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 80):
Palestinians are their own enemy, they hold their future in their own hands.

Except they don't. The West Bank has been well behaved, yet there is not even a framework for a peace plan in sight, Israel isn't treating them any differently, and the settlements are still being expanded. In other words, Israel is doing its best to send the message that the Palestinians are powerless to change their condition, at least peacefully. I can only hope that the current Israeli government will be replaced with one that recognizes that if you want to discourage a certain behavior, it's best to reward the other party when the behavior stops, not keep beating them like you did before.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 82, posted (1 year 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
You say that as if you'd like it to happen.

No, it's happening already.

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
Except they don't. The West Bank has been well behaved,

Its been well behaved because of Israeli occupation and check-stops. When Israel left Gaza it turned into a terrorist breeding ground.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 83, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74):
Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves. Israel has helped make things worse, but the Palestinians are far from saints and they haven't been the easiest to make peace with.

I really think we have established this already, so lets not labor the point shall we.

Israels action yesterday, in announcing the building of 3000 new homes on yet more stolen land, and another illegal settlement, and I say Illegal because the UN has stated so, is outrageous, and nothing less.

How on earth can the Israelis expect the Palestinians to play ball, and sit down at the "i will screw you table" with this crap going on before them.

Give me a reason, why that should be the case in this instance, not talking about earlier times, but yesterdays actions .

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 78):
I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.

What exactly is your opinion of the new announcement of 3000 new homes, in yet another illegal settlement ?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 80):
Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years.

And it also give the rest of the world more examples of precisely why Israel couldn't and shouldn't be trusted. EVER!

Quoting powerslide (Reply 80):
Israel on the other hand, is doing just fine.

Israels international reputation is in tatters, and rightly so.

They have just been booted so hard in the ass.Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote. How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!

That in itself speaks volumes wouldn't you say ?

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
You say that as if you'd like it to happen.

That's an understatement if ever I heard one !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 82):
When Israel left Gaza it turned into a terrorist breeding ground.

What other options were there? Israel bombs the place repeatedly and yet basic building materials for constructing anything out of the rubble are tightly restricted by Israel's blockade, along with a wide variety of other economic goods. And Israel is willing to target almost any structure or location in Gaza if they feel it is a security threat, so there's not much if anything to fall back to. The economic and travel restrictions only serve to empower the terrorists there, because no one else really has an opportunity to offer anything.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
UN has stated so

Oh god, not the UN!  Wow!
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
Israels international reputation is in tatters

Not quite. Some will be upset over this for a week or two then business will be back to normal.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
They have just been booted so hard in the ass.

Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war. The IDF is far superior to any other military in the region and it doesn't boast well for the Arabs that a couple of US carrier battle groups are trolling the med.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote.

Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
That in itself speaks volumes wouldn't you say ?

It doesn't speak anything in my view. There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state. Fact is, Israel can pretty much do anything they want and there is nothing that the peanut gallery countries of the UN can do about it.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 86, posted (1 year 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.

If that's so, the discussion about Palestine shouldn't really be something that bothers you...

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war.

I don't think that's really what he meant. Though your jumping straight to "war against everybody" is still a useful thing to note if only because it illustrates the persistent siege mindset that is probably fairly unavoidable for a country that was fighting off its direct neighbors three or four times in the first fifty years of its history and is purposefully culturally separated from those neighbors.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 87, posted (1 year 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Some will be upset over this for a week or two then business will be back to normal.

All goes to show Israel in its true light.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Who is going to do it?

Israel is doing it to themselves.

Israel, has been shown time and time again that it can't be trusted, this is just another one of those times.

Normally, nearly all member states would have voted with Israel and the US, blindly....

But NOT this time

It further proves my point the the world is tiring of Israel and the games it plays

Whether you like it or not, support is waning, and its lonely out there with no friends on the world stage.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.

Ok then, if as you say the UN is useless, then why is Israel a part if it ?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state.

Oh, its not unfortunate at all, as time rolls on, and Israels actions become clearer and clearer to the international community (like the new illegal 3000 settlements etc...), you just watch them drop off like flies!

The world is tired of it.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Fact is, Israel can pretty much do anything they want and there is nothing that the peanut gallery countries of the UN can do about it.

This sort of outlandish arrogant comment, further cements my views on Israel.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 9 months 14 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 84):
What other options were there?

Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
This sort of outlandish arrogant comment, further cements my views on Israel.

That's fine. People posting on forums don't have an impact on Israel's domestic policy. In fact, much of the complaining and whining by the UN doesn't do much. Again, I don't agree with what Israel is doing in some areas but realistically the way this whole situation is being handled by the international community is non productive.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (1 year 9 months 13 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Oh god, not the UN!
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.

Just remember powerslide, that when you are critizising the UN, you are also critisizing it's members who happen to include Canada and the USA. The UN is an organization that can only be as good and effective as it's member states wants it to be.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 90, posted (1 year 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 3400 times:
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Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war. The IDF is far superior to any other military in the region and it doesn't boast well for the Arabs that a couple of US carrier battle groups are trolling the med.

Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 91, posted (1 year 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state.

Might you address a few of my points?

1. I'm not sure about your calculations, but I wouldn't call Russia or China "allies of the Jewish state," would you?

2. Pakistan already has nuclear technology and Iran may have it anytime between now and 2015. The "suitcase nuke" is largely implausible, but nevertheless Israel is so tiny that one nuke would be nation-ending and a host of other unconventional warfare tactics are similarly catastrophic for a nation with exactly 1 commercially important city. You may be right that few could win against the IDF, but it seems to me they don't have to.

3. IMO Israel's current militant posture is sustainable only so long as America's position as an unchallenged superpower is in place. When this ends, Israel better have made a permanent peace or Israel ends itself...the clock is ticking.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90):
Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.

Incumbent to Israel's long term existence is peace with their neighbours and resolution of the Palestinian dispute. The current paradigm of power among nations and blocks in the world is already shifting.


Pu


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (1 year 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 88):
Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.

"Can't behave," or weren't given a chance, owing to the reasons I listed above? As long as Israel continues to wield so much power over Gaza as to stifle the growth of meaningful opportunity for its population, it doesn't matter whether they have occupied the place or not.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 93, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 88):
but realistically the way this whole situation is being handled by the international community is non productive.

Very true, whats needed by the international community is sanctions and suspension of diplomatic relations, trade etc.with Israel, if only they would.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):

God what arrogance, inviting wrath for sure.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!

Three of whom are US influenced tiny and irrelevant Island nations, and not even really worthy of any mention, I didnt even know Palau existed till 2006 when Asiana Airlines decided to fly there, in South Asia we have a dish called Palau i.e rice cooked in chicken or vegetable stock.

I can well imagine the taunts by pro-Israel lobby here if the table was turned and only six countries had voted in favour of Palestine, ones like Maldives, Brunei, Seychelles, they would have left no opprtunity to make a joke of it and at the same time boast about the 150 others who voted for Israel.

BTW what were the 'Peanut Gallery' states at the UN called when they voted in favour of Israel all these decades?

[Edited 2012-12-01 17:19:15]

User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 94, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 88):
Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.

Except that NATO has no duty to Israel whatsoever. Many complained when NATO enforced the no-fly one over Libya, imagine if it were to start another patrol mission, on a strip that's no danger to anyone except Southern Israel.

And what about those in the West Bank? Haven't they behaved properly?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 95, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua
"And what about those in the West Bank? Haven't they behaved properly?"

This is the question that no one of the apologists for the Israeli stance will reply. I have asked the question over and over, why is it that the dispossession is continuing in the West Bank when Abbas has tried the peaceful path of negotiation and diplomacy?

From those who did not ignore the question, every reply has been Gaza. Military responses have occurred in Gaza but the people who are being kicked off their land are in the West Bank. The simple fact is that those who have the greatest influence in Israel and their most strident supporters elsewhere believe that the West Bank is part of the Jewish Homeland. They do not wish to give it up, plain and simple. Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.

I can not help but think that Israel's links with Hamas go beyond its initial funding and deep infiltration. Every time it looks as if a deal might be forthcoming we see a "provocation" from Gaza. Is this purely coincidental or is it planned by those who have infiltrated? I am not saying this is the case, just thinking out loud. This latest round of violence seemed very contrived, appearing in the run up to Palestine's application at the UN and the elections that are due in Israel. If Israel had hoped that a revulsion against "terrorists" would lead to a solid no vote, they were sadly disappointed.

[Edited 2012-12-01 19:05:13]

User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 96, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90):
Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.

The same will hold true for Hamas...

Marc


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 97, posted (1 year 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 78):
I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.

What exactly is your opinion of the new announcement of 3000 new homes, in yet another illegal settlement ?

I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!

I call myself pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because, like I said before, my beliefs and stances (IMO) are fair to both sides and will defend either or criticize either. In this thread alone, I've criticized Israel, criticized Palestine, defended Israel, and defended Palestine.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):

I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!

I call myself pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because, like I said before, my beliefs and stances (IMO) are fair to both sides and will defend either or criticize either. In this thread alone, I've criticized Israel, criticized Palestine, defended Israel, and defended Palestine.

Thus is the plight of a moderate on the Internet. Reasoned positions that weigh the concerns of both sides are for people who don't get into two-hundred-reply virtual shouting matches.  


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 99, posted (1 year 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 3249 times:
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Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 96):
The same will hold true for Hamas...

Hamas is a part of the Palestinian problem not the solution, if it disappear things might change a little, but not much, can you say the same about Israel?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 100, posted (1 year 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 99):
Hamas is a part of the Palestinian problem not the solution, if it disappear things might change a little, but not much, can you say the same about Israel?

Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around. It's not often you and I agree on something, but we can agree that Hamas is a big part of the problem.

Marc


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 101, posted (1 year 9 months ago) and read 3191 times:

In response to Palestine has gotten observer status at the UN, Israel hold back money that should have been paid to the Palestinian Authority.

The Israeli government will not pay 92.7 million euros which should have been paid in December, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced Sunday. The money is tax-and tariff bonds which Israel collects for the Palestinians.

- We have always said that we will react to a new status in the United Nations for Palestine. I have no intention of paying the money this month. They will be used to pay the Palestinian Authority's debt to the Israeli electricity company, said Steinitz.

Translated excerpts of Norwegian article:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/mi...tosten/artikkel.php?artid=10056227


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 102, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 100):
Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around.

Sincerely hope not, Cadet985 - for the sake of the 'Jewish people' to whom you refer, as well as the rest of us.

If history, over the last two thousand years or so, teaches us anything at all, it is that religion and politics don't mix. That's been true ever since the Crusades in the Middle Ages.

The only system that appears to have ANY chance of ensuring 'peace and prosperity' for the population of the world, for any extended period, appears to be the one adopted by the victorious Western Powers - and therefore by the majority of other countries, including places which had been on the other side, like Germany and Japan - after 1945. That system was, and remains, basically a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from poverty (meaning governments that treat all their subjects equally), and protection from any persecution of any one group in a given society by any other.

No-one ever said it better, or shorter, than one of the 20th. Century's greatest statesmen - President Franklin D. Roosevelt:-

"In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world. The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants—everywhere in the world. The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world. That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 100):
Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around. It's not often you and I agree on something, but we can agree that Hamas is a big part of the problem.

That post shows that you reject the 'four freedoms,' and instead favour a regime in Israel based on religious prejudice - apparently against all religions other than the Jewish one.

Having lived through WW2 as a small child, I'm quite confident that prejudiced people like you will fail. Only thing is, back in 1939-45, it took a long time and cost many lives. It appears only too possible that the (pretty drastic) religious intolerance currently being practised in Israel is likely also to persist for quite a long time - and cost many more lives before it is finally ended.

[Edited 2012-12-02 06:36:43]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 103, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

I was just thinking... why did the Obama administration vote no? Not trying to be cynical, but there is no election he has to worry about, and it seemed that this administration doesn't automatically bend backwards for Israel and tends to be a bit more Palestinian-friendly. He is a liberal, and most of the liberals I know tend to support statehood.

I mean, he could just be personally against it, but is there something bigger? Now would've been the perfect time to accept statehood IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 104, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103):
I was just thinking... why did the Obama administration vote no? Not trying to be cynical, but there is no election he has to worry about, and it seemed that this administration doesn't automatically bend backwards for Israel and tends to be a bit more Palestinian-friendly. He is a liberal, and most of the liberals I know tend to support statehood.

I mean, he could just be personally against it, but is there something bigger? Now would've been the perfect time to accept statehood IMO

Maybe because he doesn't want Israel's ultraright to win the upcoming elections? By voting to appease Israel, the Netanyahu coalition has other issues to worry about. Had they voted yes or abstained (which IMO was the best decision), the Netanyahu coalition would have pressed on on how their security is at risk and how the US no longer supports them, blah blah blah...



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 101):
In response to Palestine has gotten observer status at the UN, Israel hold back money that should have been paid to the Palestinian Authority.

The Israeli government will not pay 92.7 million euros which should have been paid in December, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced Sunday. The money is tax-and tariff bonds which Israel collects for the Palestinians.

- We have always said that we will react to a new status in the United Nations for Palestine. I have no intention of paying the money this month. They will be used to pay the Palestinian Authority's debt to the Israeli electricity company, said Steinitz.

Translated excerpts of Norwegian article:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/mi...56227

And this is exactly what I mean! The world needs to know more about what the Israeli Government does to the Palestinians. As a second generation Palestinian I was always very center in this matter, until I spend some time in the West Bank and saw for myself the horrible things Israeli Military does to Palestinians. I still can't believe nobody does anything about it. About 18% of the Palestinian population practices Christiniaty, yet they get treated like extreme Mulsim terrorists. I know slowly the truth is coming out and the world will get to see the horrors the Palestinian people have to endure because of Israel's Government.

Notice how I always refer them as Israel's Government. Because spending some time in Israel I have the best Israeli friends, and they are very fair when it comes to this conflict (most of them from Tel Aviv, of course). Not all of the Israeli population supports the horrible government they have, if that's what you want to call those tirans. The problem is that like my friends, most of the population in Israel that believe in Palestinian rights, don't act upon it, they could show the world the caring, lovable people they really are, but they don't, and I don't know why, and that is my only problem with them.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 106, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 105):

How do most Palestinians view Israelis in general?


User currently offlinesanti319 From Mexico, joined Dec 2005, 395 posts, RR: 0
Reply 107, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3054 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 106):
How do most Palestinians view Israelis in general?

In the West Bank I know Israeli extremist are seen as terrible as Muslim extremists. But we don't talk about that. You wake up with a wall in your face everyday, there's really nothing else to talk about. Except when Israeli soldiers randomly pull over your cousins (3 female Christians) and start doing a search for their car, their clothes, everything. One of them is 16, and all of this is in the West Bank as they cannot even enter Israel. And the three of them are US Citizens, with US passports. Yes it is that bad, and nobody does anything about it. So what do we think, nothing absolutely nothing.


User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 108, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 95):
Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.

That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
If history, over the last two thousand years or so, teaches us anything at all, it is that religion and politics don't mix.

Religion has been the biggest cancer for mankind. This whole Israeli-Palestinian bullshit could be solved overnight if they stopped looking at it from a religious standpoint. In the end they are both humans.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 109, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 107):

That's horrible ;(. I know there are many peace organizations in Isreal but they also get drowned out by the extremists. I think if the intifada hadn't happened, the wall would have never gone up and things wouldn't have been as bad as they are now. I think your cousins need to complain to the US authorities...


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 110, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3005 times:
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Quoting powerslide (Reply 108):
That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.

This is a two way street, why don't you sent all the immigrants after 48 to where they came from and return the land to the true owners not to the thieves.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 108):
n the end they are both humans.

Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13999 posts, RR: 62
Reply 111, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 108):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 95):
Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.

That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.

Sounds a bit like a 1930s plan by the Nazis for the European Jews: Deport them all to Madagascar.

Jan


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 112, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 108):
That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.

Why would any country want to just accept millions of people? You can be 1: for Palestinians and 2: not want millions of refugees in your country at the same time. I mean, how do you even argue that logically? It's as ridiculous as Native Americans wanting Canada back and sending you and the millions of other Canadians back to Britain and France. Sounds silly when you flip it around, doesn't it?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 113, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting santi319 (Reply 105):
About 18% of the Palestinian population practices Christiniaty, yet they get treated like extreme Mulsim terrorists.

That's starting to change. The Palestinian Christians in the West Bank have a lot of political backing from the UK, Canada, and the United States. Over the past 10 years, the Israeli government has been increasingly persuaded to loosen up on the Palestinian Christians. They are generally considered "low risk", and are afforded more privileges than the Muslims and secular Arabs. It's a slow process though, and only a handful of Palestinian Christians have been granted travel visas by the Israeli government.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 114, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 112):
Why would any country want to just accept millions of people?

That entire idea is all based on a racist premise: "They're all brown skinned towel heads, they can take care of each other."



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 115, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 28):
Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...

Grow a pair.....
Thank you all and have a good evening

More anti-Canada sentiment from thegreatRDU, how shocking  
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65):
Your right, it is absolutely unbelievable, especially from Canada. I had thought they were more or less independent of the US.
How wrong I was !

Part of it was likely influenced by our biggest ally and trading partner, but if you cared to do an ounce of research, you would read that PM Stephen Harper had well explained Canada's reason for voting the way we did. I believe Canada's reason for voting no was a whole lot better than any other country's reason for voting no (except for the Czech Republic, I have no idea where that one came from).

But hey, who am I to let facts get in the way of a good smear...

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
And it also give the rest of the world more examples of precisely why Israel couldn't and shouldn't be trusted. EVER!
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87):
All goes to show Israel in its true light.

It's pretty clear from your comments that you aren't so much pro-Palestine as you are anti-Israel. I respect your right to have an opinion, but at least own it rather than hiding it under the guise of supporting a region's statehood.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 85):
Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.

I'll agree that the UN is rather useless in this matter. This resolution really resolves nothing. But I would be weary to complete write-off the entire organization as useless, because they have done some good in other areas.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!

Welcome to the world of being a moderate. One side or the other is going to say you're wrong no matter what you say 



Flying refined.
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110):
This is a two way street, why don't you sent all the immigrants after 48 to where they came from and return the land to the true owners not to the thieves.

How about we give back all the land that was "stolen" over the course of mankind. Wars change lines on borders, the Arabs, who are quite good at losing, can't seem to grasp that concept.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110):
Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.

Don't like it, live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
they can take care of each other.

Actually in the last few years they've shown quite the opposite. Taking care of each other isn't something they do well.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2844 posts, RR: 8
Reply 117, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!

Ok. I was just trying to establish where you stood on this latest development from Israel (3000 new homes and another illegal settlement)

As you have said previously, you are Pro Israeli, which is fine and I respect that. but what will it take, for you to change that point of view, or will you always have it ?

How many more land grabs and illegal settlement buildings by Bibi and the cronies, will it take for you to say, well, what you are doing is wrong and it must stop, I can no longer go along with this POV by being supportive of you ?

Several several years ago, my attitude towards Israel and its policy's of sheer discrimination against innocent people, even their own citizens. This caused me to have a bit of a rethink and take a closer look.... And I didn't like what I saw.

I acknowledged fully that the Palestinians are no angles, and certainly do there fair share of causing grief for the Israelis, however they are the underdog here, and very much so, that has been established without dispute.

Israel, on the other hand has the support of the west (although that appears to be rapidly changing, and can no longer be taken as a given)

If Israel is going to fight, then make it a fair and even battle.

And after the hideous actions of WW11, Israel of ALL countries, should know this more than anyone !

And now this from Israel, in retaliation for the Palestinian bid.

"JERUSALEM: Israel exacted a price for the United Nation's de facto recognition of Palestine on Sunday by confiscating $115 million in revenue even as the Palestinian president triumphantly told thousands of followers: "Now we have a state."

"The decision was the latest sign of Israel's mounting fury over last week's vote. Two days earlier Mr Netanyahu's government announced it would build 3000 settlers' home in east Jerusalem and the West Bank, effectively annexing land the Palestinians have earmarked as part of a future state.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-t...-20121203-2apn2.html#ixzz2Dw6texci

Is this what you could in anyway call fair ?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115):
It's pretty clear from your comments that you aren't so much pro-Palestine as you are anti-Israel. I respect your right to have an opinion, but at least own it rather than hiding it under the guise of supporting a region's statehood.

I have never hidden my views on this topic, once. They are there for all to see.

I am against continual provocation towards the Pal's by the Israelis, and I am not about to stop calling it out when I see regular news reports about continued illegal settlement and land grabs,threats to withhold revenue, from a country which is already in tatters, what can the Palestinians do, except lob a few crude missiles over the fence.

I strongly feel that the Israelis are playing dangerous physiological games here, dangerous games, in as much as we have seen hoe the Pal's react to certain issues. We can all see Israel pushing the buttons, ramping the pressure up, but for what reason, only to provoke ?

If that reasoning makes me anti Israeli and I shout hard and loud for the Pals, then so be it .

Quoting powerslide (Reply 116):
Actually in the last few years they've shown quite the opposite. Taking care of each other isn't something they do well.

And instead if Israel taking the moral high ground, they throw petrol on the fire, time and time again.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 118, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2879 times:
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Quoting powerslide (Reply 116):
the Arabs, who are quite good at losing, can't seem to grasp that concept.

We can afford to loose a couple of wars, but Israel can not loose one, again go back to history and learn. Time is not on the side of Israel neither is history.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 116):
Don't like it, live somewhere else.

NO they want to live in there land and homes stolen by the Zionsts how difficult is this to understand? If i come tomorrow with a gun and throw you out of your house by force will you simply find somewhere else to live?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 116):
There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.

I am sure that the Jewish religion does not allow discrimination based on religion.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 119, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Agreed. I'm proud of my government's strong support of Israel. and our vote on this issue.

It's very unfortunate that so few Western countries chose to stand with our ally, Israel.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115):
Part of it was likely influenced by our biggest ally and trading partner,

Actually, I don't agree. Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115):
(except for the Czech Republic, I have no idea where that one came from).

I agree, I don't know where that came from either. Anyway, kudos to the Czech Rep for not following the EU's non-leadership on this issue.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 113):
The Palestinian Christians in the West Bank have a lot of political backing from the UK, Canada, and the United States.

As they should. If there is one community that can act as a "bridge" between Israel and the Palestinian leadership, it is Palestinian Christians who themselves have suffered discrimination from the Palestinian muslim majority. But this highlights a bigger issue: Palestine is splitting into 2 "nations": an increasingly prosperous West Bank (albeit with Israeli settlements) and an isolated, militant and impoverished Gaza. Perhaps the 2 groups should be treated as two separate Palestinian "nations" for future peace discussions.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110):
Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.

Non-Jews in Israel are better treated that ANYONE else in the Middle East outside Israel. Saudi Arabia won't even allow Jewish visitors. As for Christians entering Saudi Arabia, bibles are confiscated upon entry, churches are not allowed in SA, and visiting Mecca is not allowed. The world would be a better place if SA would raise its human rights records to the very high level of Israel.....



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 120, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2875 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117):
As you have said previously, you are Pro Israeli, which is fine and I respect that. but what will it take, for you to change that point of view, or will you always have it ?

Well in my book, pro-Israel doesn't mean "support them blindly." Some people say they do not have a right to exist--I believe they do (at least now, maybe back 64 years ago I'd have a different opinion but we can't go back.) I think a lot of Palestine's woes are due to Israel but I also believe that a lot are created by the Palestinians themselves. And when Israel was about to invade due to the rockets recently... although I disagreed with a lot of their actions prior, I could not blame them for wanting to stop the missile strikes (that single action alone, in a vacuum, I could see myself getting behind, though if I were in charge, I'd do a 180 on other policies that would have probably stopped the rockets, at least for a while.)

Like I said before, I've been pretty hard on Israel in these threads since the tide seems to be supporting Israel blindly and being against the Palestinians. But when I see Israel getting criticized unfairly (IMO) I'll speak out

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115):
Welcome to the world of being a moderate. One side or the other is going to say you're wrong no matter what you say 

Lol no kidding. But TheCommodore is at least respectful about it, I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...

[Edited 2012-12-02 15:46:41]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 121, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2864 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
It's very unfortunate that so few Western countries chose to stand with our ally, Israel.

Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally? What has Israel done to deserve being called an ally? The US and UK are allies because they both fought in the same wars and have expanding economic ties. The US and Canada are allies: same reason. I can't call Israel an ally when a blank check goes one way and causes turmoil in the region.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 122, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 121):
Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally?

Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.

These values absolutely bind the West with Israel. We are Israel; Israel is us.

No other nation in the Middle East shares (any of) these values.

Btw, I am not Jewish, nor do I have any ties to Israel. I simply recognize and support a small, but vibrant and important, piece of the West in a dark and violent Middle East.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 123, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 118):
Time is not on the side of Israel neither is history.

What does this mean? The Arabs don't have the capacity or capability to remove Israel by force. When the oil runs out in the middle east so will the money. Doesn't look for the Arabs at all....

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 118):
NO they want to live in there land and homes stolen by the Zionsts how difficult is this to understand?

How difficult to understand that the land won't be returned, ever, the way things are going they are now. Fighting Israel won't win you any battles or get the land back. Either disarm or accept the way things are now.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117):
And instead if Israel taking the moral high ground, they throw petrol on the fire, time and time again.

So you are blaming Israel for all the Arab on Arab deaths in the past few years? Not surprised. The Zionists are responsible for the Arab spring.  


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 124, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 108):
This whole Israeli-Palestinian bullshit could be solved overnight if they stopped looking at it from a religious standpoint.

Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 116):
Don't like it, live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.

There are plenty of countries in the world that accept Jews, why does Israel need to keep expanding their West Bank settlements instead of just saying "look, we're run out of space within our borders to build, sorry but we can't let you in right now"? Or perhaps they could just build more homes that are actually within their pre-1967 borders - there's a thought.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
Non-Jews in Israel are better treated that ANYONE else in the Middle East outside Israel.

That's not good enough. Palestinians are not in good shape and Israel is effectively their government, or near enough to it as long as they don't have one of their own. And if your only standard for basic treatment of human beings is "eh, better than Saudi Arabia," well, that's just having low standards.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.

These values absolutely bind the West with Israel. We are Israel; Israel is us.

Disagree somewhat; Israel is closer to "our values" than its neighbors but it also has a very distinct difference in that it is founded and operated with a specific religious purpose.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 126, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.

They may believe in those values, just not enough to let Palestinians in on the human rights, rule of law, and freedom of movement bits.

Besides, it's minimizing the value of the Israelis to support them just because they are supposedly the only outpost of Western values in the land of the uncivilized untermenschen.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 127, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 126):
they are supposedly the only outpost of Western values in the land of the uncivilized untermenschen.

And I don't even buy that argument. I find it hard to believe honestly. It seems like a made up argument, supporting Israel because they're more "Western" than their neighbors. A lot of people that are strangely uncompassionate all of the sudden become so concerned about democracy all around the world. I mean, I'm sure there are some people like that out there, but not as many as there claims to be



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 128, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights,

Have to disagree,yyz717. Israel is in flagrant breach of most, if not all, the 'values' to which you refer.

For a start, they take religious discrimination to extreme levels; effectively only allowing people of the Jewish faith to immigrate to Israel, and quite obviously not just barring any Muslims at all from entering the place, but taking active steps (by continually taking over and demolishing the Palestinians' houses on the West Bank, and building Jewish settlements in their place) to drive yet more Muslims out, and take their land without compensation (as they have done since 1948).

They also discriminate (on an increasing scale) against Arab citizens of Israel:-

"Reporting from Jerusalem — Israel's conservative-led Knesset adopted two controversial laws Wednesday that critics warned will worsen discrimination against the nation's Arab minority and make it easier to prevent Arab citizens from moving into hundreds of Jewish towns and villages.

"One law legalizes the practice of using "admissions committees" in small towns in the Negev and Galilee to reject would-be residents based on their social "suitability," a vague term opponents fear could be used to bar gays, black Israelis, single women, Christians, Muslims and secular families as well as Arabs.

"The second law is aimed at imposing fines on Arab towns, local authorities and state-funded organizations that commemorate Nakba Day, which falls near Israel's Independence Day. Some Arab Israelis refer to the day Israel gained statehood as a nakba, or catastrophe, because it resulted in the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians.

"This is not just a racist law, it's an oppressive law," said Hassan Jabareen, founder of Adalah, an Israeli advocacy group focusing on legal rights of Arab citizens. "It sends the public message that Israel not only doesn't respect the history and memory of the Palestinian people, but they now prohibit Palestinians living under their regime from commemorating their own history and identity."


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...ld/la-fg-israel-arab-laws-20110324



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 129, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 127):
And I don't even buy that argument. I find it hard to believe honestly. It seems like a made up argument, supporting Israel because they're more "Western" than their neighbors.

The entire idea rests on the premise that Arabs are savages who cannot be trusted to form and run their own states or allow anyone else to run theirs and who must be shown proper values by their more enlightened (read white) counterparts.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 130, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 125):
That's not good enough. Palestinians are not in good shape and Israel is effectively their government,

The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them. The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now. Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3060 posts, RR: 8
Reply 131, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 121):
Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally?

Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.

You might want to check up on that because all the Gulf Monarchies don't

Quote:
share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.

and they are considered allies as well. Heck, look at Pakistan, another "ally".

I'm calling BS on that.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2823 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them. The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now. Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.

If Israel is going to make regular military incursions, restrict travel, and ban various imports to these Palestinian locations, the responsibility for their economic outcomes is unavoidable. I figure Gaza gets lots of military supplies because those with the means to circumvent blockades and so on, namely terrorists, need a disproportionate amount.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 133, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
Actually, I don't agree. Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.

I don't disagree with you...but don't you think that, even subconsciously, we make some decisions in solidarity with the US in knowing that will in some way benefit us?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...

Forgive me, but I actually find that mildly amusing! This person clearly isn't familiar with your postings here in Non-Av.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.

I have to mostly disagree, Mir. Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion. At the end of the day, this issue is about Jews and Muslims not being able to play nice, because if they did then they would be able to live in a single state sans conflict.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.


This statement is grossly contradictory. So long as Israel is in conflict with Palestine forming their own independent state, it is entirely Israel's responsibility. It's like blocking someone from entering a building and then complaining when they force their way past you.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 134, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
democracy

Unless you are an Arab.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
rule of law

Unless you are an Arab.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
human rights

Unless you are an Arab.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
freedom of expression and movement

Unless you are an Arab.


Israel is no better at treating Muslims than Saudi Arabia is at treating Christians... and even discriminates against Arab Christians.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 26
Reply 135, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.

Good luck finding an Palestinian that will disagree with that. Give them their own independent state and nobody will need to babysit them.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now.

America has a large Jewish population, many of whom are wealthy and influential, and has plenty of land. Why should we not get the Israelis out of the situation they are in now? We are all white and share our superior western values, so why not bring them all here and let the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs live like savages?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 133):
Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion.

When one group sets up an explicitly Jewish state there is no alternative to it becoming an issue of both.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 136, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):


Exabtly why Palestine is us and we are Palestine.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 137, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2789 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.

I'd agree, but the Palestinians are not a free state, and many (BUT NOT ALL) problems do result from Israel

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now.

What's with the race thing? Do we need to be Arabs to care about the Palestinians? As a white Christian, should I only care about white Christian countries? Please explain. And again, a country can support the Palestinians without wanting millions of refugees flooding their countries

Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.

This is a legitimate concern, I'll agree. Unlike many here, I do not think weapons will stop flowing if Palestine becomes a completely free state. Most violence (and reason for violence) will die down, but hate will linger for a while, and many won't be satisfied with a 2 state solution (some want all Jews/Israelis out/dead)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 138, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.

  

Canada would have voted no regardless. The current government has made their position very clear, even before Obama came to office. Canada has a big presence in Israeli affairs, and our current government is quite involved behind the scenes.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
But this highlights a bigger issue: Palestine is splitting into 2 "nations": an increasingly prosperous West Bank (albeit with Israeli settlements) and an isolated, militant and impoverished Gaza. Perhaps the 2 groups should be treated as two separate Palestinian "nations" for future peace discussions.

This is a major snag which the international community can't seem to recognize. Even with the motion tabled and passed, there has been no specifics about who in Palestine is representing the Palestinians. This is likely to become a major stumbling block in future negotiations and with funding, since Iran and co. will put Hamas first. It's also likely China and Russia will throw any political backing on this issue behind their favorite customers.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.

Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134):
and even discriminates against Arab Christians.

Like I said, that is starting to change. It's a slow change, but eventually more and more Palestinian Christians will see the travel restrictions eased up on them.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 139, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 133):
Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion. At the end of the day, this issue is about Jews and Muslims not being able to play nice, because if they did then they would be able to live in a single state sans conflict.

I'm not sure that's really religion. We've seen countless times how trying to force people of different cultures (a category that includes religion but is not limited to it) to live in the same country ends up with trouble. Ultimately, both the Israelis and Palestinians want to have their own identities, for legitimate reasons that go far beyond just what religion they practice.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardb...e-brainwashing-behind-the-rockets/

...if this is all true, then i can understand why Israelis would be afraid. The hate is just sad. I am trying to see things from both sides here. They need to come together and realize that both Israel and the Palestinians arent going anywhere...


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 141, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 138):
Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.

Even for Hamas it's not primarily a religious issue. They hate Israel because of what Israel has done (move into land that they perceive is theirs), not because Israel is Jewish (though that doesn't help).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 142, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
democracy
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
rule of law
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
human rights
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
freedom of expression and movement
Unless you are an Arab.

Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews. Moreover, Arabs are exempt from military service.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134):
Israel is no better at treating Muslims than Saudi Arabia is at treating Christians... and even discriminates against Arab Christians.

Nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights in Israel. Saudi Arabia won't even let Christians practice their religion. The two countries aren't even comparable.

Quoting 777way (Reply 136):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):

Exabtly why Palestine is us and we are Palestine.

Ha. Okay. Whatever.....



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 143, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 50):
And Israel has retaliated, by moving forward with plans for settlement expansion that will significantly cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank.

I'm kind of curious about this. Israeli always claims to be a 'rule of law' kind of place, yet it seems that permission for all these new properties has been approved purely for the sake of saying 'screw you' to the Palestinians, rather than going through the actual planning permission process.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
I won't deny that it's no coincidence the settlement building commenced right after Palestine got semi-statehood...

Politics, politics, politics... Yet they will keep claiming 'rule of law'. Good luck to any Palestinians trying to get permission from the Israeli govt to build houses near that area.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69):
It is nothing more than sheer provocation, on the side of the Israelis, and nothing else.
We hear Bibi, get up in front of the worlds press, and say time and time again, that Israel wants peace.

Yeah.... well, if this is how he, and his government, go about showing that, then its a load of complete and utter, Bullshit !

   Wanting peace with their neighbours and building more settlements on Palestinian land are mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, the kind of peace that Bibi and his supporters want is one where Palestinians are pushed into Jordan or the Mediterranean.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83):
Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote. How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!

   Very good to see that Israel's actions (the settlement building in particular) are isolating them politically. I hope this increases. I hope Israel gets a government that actually wants peace, for their own sake, as much as anyone else's.

Quoting Pu (Reply 91):
IMO Israel's current militant posture is sustainable only so long as America's position as an unchallenged superpower is in place. When this ends, Israel better have made a permanent peace or Israel ends itself...the clock is ticking.

  

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 95):
Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.

It is and that is a typical racist 'whiteman's' argument. Because , the argument boils down to 'if their skin is the same colour, they speak the same language and worship the same god, they must all be the same'. Using that logic, I could construct a fairly decent argument that:
A) Austrians and Germans are one and the same;
B) Americans and non-Quebecer Canadians are one and the same;
C) (Were it not for the separation that the Tasman Sea provides) New Zealanders and Australians are one and the same.
As it happens, the world doesn't work like that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
That entire idea is all based on a racist premise: "They're all brown skinned towel heads, they can take care of each other."

   You beat me to it.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119):
Anyway, kudos to the Czech Rep for not following the EU's non-leadership on this issue.

Voting for something you don't support (enmasse) and non-leadership aren't the same thing.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120):
I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...

I'm actually pleasantly surprised that, despite being over 100 posts in this thread, noone has accused anyone of such things. Lets hope it stays (relatively) civil.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130):
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve

And by building yet more settlements on Palestinian land, Israel is doing all it can not to solve it.    Unfortunately Israel is going to reap more of what they are sowing, which is actually really sad.

Quoting Mir (Reply 139):
We've seen countless times how trying to force people of different cultures (a category that includes religion but is not limited to it) to live in the same country ends up with trouble. Ultimately, both the Israelis and Palestinians want to have their own identities, for legitimate reasons that go far beyond just what religion they practice.

Well said.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142):
Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews.

   Try telling that to any arab in East Jerusalem trying to get a building permit. Or, alternatively, any arab in the Israeli Occupied West Bank.



Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3463 posts, RR: 17
Reply 144, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2640 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142):
Nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights in Israel.

Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.
Before you come back about democracy in KSA, remember we are not going around telling people how great is democracy in our country.
The Palestinians won a member seat In the UN it was all fair and correct, they won the majority of votes there, what was the response of this so called the only democracy in the area? They are building 3000+ settlements on land that does not belong to them and withholding over 115 million USD that belongs to the Palestinians, wow if this is the definition of democracy then i do not want it.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 145, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2629 times:

yyz717, I took the trouble to research the rights that non-Jewish residents DON'T have in Israel, and addressed Post 128 to you, explaining the situation. I take it that you didn't bother even to read it?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144):
wow if this is the definition of democracy then i do not want it.

Agree, SOBH151. About the new settlements in the West Bank, I think that it's finally dawned on me what's happening.

The whole region is absurdly over-populated - and the Israelis are still allowing immediate entry - at the expense of the United States - to anyone of the Jewish faith who asks for it. So they have to go on driving out as many Palestinians as they can, as fast as they can; by taking and demolishing their homes. The same thing that they've been doing since 1948. And the rest of the world - primarily the United States - goes on allowing the Jews to pursue this monstrous injustice.

So the likely outcome, over the next twenty years or so, is that all the remaining Palestinians will have been 'de-housed' and driven out of the West Bank - and 'Palestine' will eventually be represented only by the Gaza Strip (which, by that time, will have a population exceeding 3 million people).

But that won't be the end of the story, because by that time 'Israel' (meaning everything west of the Jordan apart from Gaza) will itself be absurdly over-populated. And it's upkeep will be costing the long-suffering US taxpayer an absolute mint........

I reckon that, eventually, the US public will realise that they are being 'played for suckers' and are financing a crazily-overcrowded place which will never reach the point at which it can become economically viable. And some more enlightened president will force Israel to abandon its present policy of unlimited (and subsidised) inward migration, and also cut US aid. And that, in any case, increasing numbers of 'Jewish Israelis' will realise that they and their kids have no future in the place, and 'vote with their feet' by moving out to countries that can offer them better prospects.

But that turning-point will certainly be many years in the future; and, sadly, by that time there'll be few if any Palestinians left in Palestine......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 146, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145):
About the new settlements in the West Bank, I think that it's finally dawned on me what's happening.

I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution. This is the official position of Likud, outlined in the party's charter, and it appears to be confirmed by a report in the Guardian.

Quote:
The Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected the UN vote at its weekly meeting on Sunday. It described the West Bank as "disputed territory" over which the Jewish people had "a natural right".

Meanwhile both Britain and France have called in the Israeli Ambassadors to their respective countries to make known their disapproval of the punitive and vindictive actions in approving expanded settlements and the withholding of taxes collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. I suspect that this is mainly for the sake of appearances. There is speculation that there might be a tightening of labelling of produce from the West Bank but at this stage there is no hint of anything but awaiting to "see what the outcome" of the talks is.

[Edited 2012-12-03 05:20:36]

User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 147, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 138):
Quoting Mir (Reply 124):Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.
Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.

I think its a religious issue now, the holy war element has entered in it. for many non-Arabs.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 138):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134):and even discriminates against Arab Christians.
Like I said, that is starting to change. It's a slow change, but eventually more and more Palestinian Christians will see the travel restrictions eased up on them.

he was referring to Sadui Arabia.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142):
Quoting 777way (Reply 136):Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):

Exabtly why Palestine is us and we are Palestine.
Ha. Okay. Whatever.....

Yes, and its not only an Arab issue or Islamic issue, as the vote has clearly shown.

[Edited 2012-12-03 06:06:07]

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 148, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 146):
I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution.

Agree that 'that seems to be the size of it,' Quokkas.

But - literally just in the last few minutes - there appear to be increasing signs that, at long last, the rest of the world is waking up to the situation. Britain, France, and Germany are all roundly condemning the latest 'settlement plan' (which, apparently, would more or less cut the West Bank off from its supposed capital, East Jerusalem) and even the UN Secretary-General has now waded in to the rising tide of condemnation:-

"Jerusalem: Israel is facing international condemnation over its plans to significantly expand settlement construction in occupied territory in the West Bank, with Britain and France reportedly considering recalling their ambassadors over the decision.

"The UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon expressed "grave concern and disappointment" over Israel's announcement of 3000 new settlement units in East Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank including an area known as E-1, which could "completely" cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank, he warned.

"Settlements are illegal under international law and, should the E-1 settlement be constructed, it would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution," said Mr Ban, through a spokesman.

"In the interests of peace, any plans for E-1 must be rescinded, he said."


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/worl...-20121203-2aqz9.html#ixzz2DzsKKlwf

Just maybe - mixing my metaphors to the limit   - Israel has finally taken 'a step too far,' and is about to be 'cut down to size' by the international community.

Sincerely hope so, anyway........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 149, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 146):
I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution. This is the official position of Likud, outlined in the party's charter, and it appears to be confirmed by a report in the Guardian.

I have the same feeling too. Reading the Jerusalem Post online (taking into account that the readers/comments will be strongly biased to one side) just confirms that many ordinary Israelis view the West Bank as their G-d given land and they are not willing to negotiate about it. Impasse reached.

D.


User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 150, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 148):
But - literally just in the last few minutes - there appear to be increasing signs that, at long last, the rest of the world is waking up to the situation. Britain, France, and Germany are all roundly condemning the latest 'settlement plan' (which, apparently, would more or less cut the West Bank off from its supposed capital, East Jerusalem) and even the UN Secretary-General has now waded in to the rising tide of condemnation:-

Bibi kinda back-pedalled on that... Last I've read he says they're just planning to build in E-1, not necessarily building  

D.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 151, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting damirc (Reply 149):

So true, a US professor who visited Isreal for some Enviromental vegetation related convention and travelled far and wide in the country dealing with average Israelis was surprised to learn that majority do not want a Palestinina state and have absolutely no liking for Arabs.

That should be ews for DeltaMD90.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7273 posts, RR: 5
Reply 152, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 61):
I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes

Why, the Israelis never gave fair market value to the land they confiscated from the Palestinians to build these settlements so why should the Palestinians pay fair market value to get them back?


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 153, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144):
Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.

Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely in Israel.

Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you afraid of? Why won't you allow Jewish visitors?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7273 posts, RR: 5
Reply 154, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 153):
Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you afraid of? Why won't you allow Jewish visitors?

What's this got to do with the topic at hand, stop deflecting.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 155, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144):
Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.

Really? Because I've been all over Israel - from the Golan Heights in the north to Eilat in the south - and have seen Israeli Arabs practically everywhere. I only say practically because I don't walk up to people and ask with what people they identify themselves. I've seen Arab buses ALL OVER Jerusalem, Arab businesses in Tel Aviv, Eilat, you name it. All Arabs in Israel have the same rights that every other Israeli citizen has...the exception being the Palestinians. I've even been waited on by an Arab cashier at a McDonald's on Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem, one of the city's outdoor pedestrian malls. Arab Israelis do not have to serve in the IDF, but some elect to do so, and they serve right alongside Israelis, and I'm sure there were some Arab Israeli soldiers around Gaza. Those rockets don't discriminate...they'll explode wherever they hit....be it a Jewish or Arab neighborhood, a synagogue or a mosque.

I can't speak for the AlAqsa mosque, as I am not allowed there being Jewish, but from pictures I've seen, Muslims of all ages pray there. While I'm on the topic of AlAqsa...that building is no different from Saudi Arabia. If you aren't Muslim, you can't even set foot on the grounds - which is something I'd honestly like to do because I've seen some beautiful pictures of it.

I would be interested in learning where you get some of your information.

Marc


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7884 posts, RR: 52
Reply 156, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 151):
That should be ews for DeltaMD90.

What is that supposed to mean??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)