Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3758 times:
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 2, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3756 times:
Congrats Palestine. Now, prove that you want peace. The road has been hard and will continue to be hard, Israel is definitely not alone in erring in this conflict...
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries
Really?
Look, Palestine is far from perfect, but Israel isn't the beacon of perfection. The status quo isn't working and only 9 countries in the world seem to want to continue with it.
You can disagree, but calling everyone else "uncivilized" is pretty childish
N537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3748 times:
Hope it leads in the right direction. Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs. Just because Israel was declared by the UN, times have changed and the Arab side has to deal with the consequences of their failed bets. They really should have said yes in 1948. THey would have gotten much better quality of land to, as Israel was mostly given areas in the Negev desert.
Hope it leads to peace. Funny that if you read the reactions by groups in Gaza, many were against the bid. They said the PA did not coordinate the UN bid procedure with other palestinian factions, and that it might lead to more reprisals from Israel.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 4, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3737 times:
Quoting N537FX (Reply 3): They really should have said yes in 1948.
You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3722 times:
Quoting N537FX (Reply 3): Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs.
So you think the situation as is should be left to continue? The other choice is to drive anyone out and have Israel take over the territories they are currently occupying. What was wrong was that the international community has let this situation become the status quo and remain so for so many decades while the demographics of the area are continuously being altered through uninterrupted settling.
Wolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 453 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3716 times:
Congratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3676 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
Marc
Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.
PSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3004 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3626 times:
Quoting Wolbo (Reply 6): ongratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.
1)It did. Israel gave up land twice for peace gestures.One with Sadat and one with Arafat in 1993.2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.3) Do you recognize Israel right to exist as Arafat did? No?Yes?
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4844 posts, RR: 27 Reply 10, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3576 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.
You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness. These are the countries that voted against:
The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.
As for those who abstained, good luck getting a 41 country block to form anything resembling the UN.
n229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1850 posts, RR: 35 Reply 11, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3575 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.
It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.
I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?
Anyway, most countries that abstained did so under US pressure.
I think this is a great step for the Palestinian leadership that has chosen peaceful diplomatic methods to have something to show. Otherwise, there is no motivation for Palestinians not to use violence.
Congratulations to Abbas.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4): Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.
You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!
Exactly. Times have changed and most Palestinians simply recognize that Israel is a reality now.
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9): 2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.
Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.
PSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3004 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3570 times:
Quoting n229nw (Reply 11): Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.
Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.
Cruel way to put it.So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.
So,again,I ask,do you recognize the two states? And Israel right to exist?
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 13, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3556 times:
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12): So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.
If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices. In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 15, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3529 times:
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12): And Israel right to exist?
YES. YES. YES. Very few people don't. This is getting so tiring
Quoting powerslide (Reply 14): We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.
PSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3004 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3523 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 13): If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices
1)I will protect that statement,as I will defended the US against any "Nationalism" of any kind,foreign or domestic.But you know as well I "The Palestinian effect"still does exist here.
2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.
Quoting lewis (Reply 13): In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.
I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3507 times:
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7): Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.
Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.
Quoting Pu (Reply 8): Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.
It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 10): You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated.
Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.
Quoting n229nw (Reply 11): I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?
After 1948, the UN has done nothing for Israel. It hasn't mediated wars, it hasn't kept the Arabs in check...and oh yeah...Israel is the only member who is barred from holding a seat on the Security Council..you know, the non-permanent, rotating seats.
Also, whenever Israel attacks Muslims, even if Muslim countries initiated attacks, who does the UN condemn? Israel.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3508 times:
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):
2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.
The process started a long time ago, it just took all the imperial countries some time to completely pull out. Even Cyprus did not become an independent state until the 60s.
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):
I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.
The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them. But again, look at the W Bank, a place with little to no Palestinian violence and yet it is segregated and settlers are creating outposts all over the place with the final goal being the erosion of Palestinian lands. Keep in mind that W Bank has been off limits for Israel to the eyes of the international community since the creation of Israel. I will be the first one to say that Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel, but Israel should also halt all settling in the W Bank immediately, as in yesterday. The more this is allowed to happen (settling) the harder it becomes for a solution to be found. While the long-term effects of rocket throwing and killing each other can be somehow reversible, the results from the settling of Palestinian lands cannot, the Palestinians are fighting against the clock on this.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4965 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3507 times:
About time, maybe the UN now can step in and finally arbitrate this mess. But I do not think that the terrorist Hamas government is legitimate. They need real elections.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.
PSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3004 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3489 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 18): The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them
I'd like the think that.too, but I have to hesitate in saying that the media is giving Hamas center stage right now.And that's not healthy.The PLO still exists,BTW,and they're not in the news. Well.maybe that's a good thing.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12333 posts, RR: 12 Reply 21, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3489 times:
The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.
The Palestinians can't become a country until they get some recognized status, but between the PA's refusal to recognize Israel, the desire of the the leading parties who get power in both Israel and the Palestinians by bashing each other, and Israel with their policy in the occupied territories, Gaza and so on, not much will happen.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 22, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3465 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN
Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"
So, when you moving to a civilized country then.....?
Seriously though, your attitude needs to change, like (most) the rest of the worlds has.
Quoting lewis (Reply 13): Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc.
This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable, directly through action taken in the ICC, this will apply to Palestine too.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 14): We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.
You don't need to participate in them, but you keep coming back.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17): Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.
He meant politically speaking.....
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19): We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.
I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid
[Edited 2012-11-29 18:45:38]
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3450 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22): Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"
I'm American and proud. I changed my flag to show unity with the State of Israel.
I will not be addressing the US being in a grouping of "uncivilized countries." You obviously did not understand what I meant, and to clarify what I was saying might just get me banned.
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3441 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.
Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.
Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go. If the Palestinians have good jobs and a good livelihood, they wont bother Israel and Israel doesnt have to keep going in there. The terrorism and the rockets have to stop. That has to be the condition for the Palestinians in order for them to have a permanent State. Israel has to remove the settlements..its time for them to go. If the settlers want to stay, let them stay on in a Palestinian state.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17): Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.
It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.
Listen, i support Israel, and the majority of the World has said that Israel has a right to defend itself. But what has led to the rockets and the terrorists? Give the Palestinians their state...end the collective punishment, and then i bet you they wont bother Israel. I mean for Christ sake there is what..40 percent unemployment in the Gaza Strip? Thats a LOT of people just sitting around with nothing to do and having an axe to grind. True, Hamas is a terrorist organization and they have royally screwed up in Gaza...but Israel can ease the blockade and still interdict weapons flow. At the end of the day, they just wanna live their lives and not be bothered by anyone. I bet most Israelis would agree as well.
jetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2021 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3548 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19): We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.
I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.
As a republican I guess I also am not supposed to support this but I actually do. This may be the first step to granting these people what they deserve, a sovereign government. Hopefully it will be led by peaceful leaders but we will have to see. I am a supporter of Israel but if they really want peace they should prove it by supporting a Palestinian state that is a peaceful ally. Though something tells me that may be an unattainable goal at this point in their relationship... There will always be problems in the world, but if we can fix conflict this the world will be a much better place to live.
Blue
Professor Foltz: You push down on that yolk, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yolk, the houses get bigger.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 26, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3513 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22): This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable,
I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think. Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls to do anything about it. They should send another letter to Israel or pass another resolution condemning their actions. Much good that does.....
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 27, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3574 times:
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24): Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.
YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.
thegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2273 posts, RR: 3 Reply 28, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3552 times:
Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...
Grow a pair.....
Thank you all and have a good evening
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3524 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.
Okay East Jerusalem then. Anyways, all im saying is....its Holy to three religions, why not share the city...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 31, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3518 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27): YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.
It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.
The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Quote: Baird goes so far as to suggest Canada will take retaliatory measures against the Palestinians for forcing the statehood issue onto the world stage.
I'm really interested what this means. Political action? Military? Probably just talk. We did just finish our mission in Afghanistan and Libya, could use more work, gets boring training all the time. I doubt Israel would welcome any foreign troops on its land any how and not like they need the help.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 33, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3497 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 31): It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4965 posts, RR: 14 Reply 35, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3495 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22): I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid
Your sarcasm is duly noted Honestly though maybe this is more libertarian coming out of me but In my opinion we should never aide palestine in the first place because of their illegitimacy as a nation...but now the world recognizes them. We are now seen as the bad guys for not recognizing them. But that also doesn't mean we are responsible for feeding them
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 25): I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.
Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress
jetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2021 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3474 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
Although I see where you are coming from it is a holy places for Christians and Muslims as well. The Jewish people very well may have been there first, but things change over time. Saying we were here first so it is ours is against what kids are taught in preschool! Why people can't share joint holy lands when religion promotes peace and caring for others is beyond me.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35): Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress
I don't understand it either, perhaps they hope the dollars will equal influence. Which it very well may. But it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
Blue
Professor Foltz: You push down on that yolk, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yolk, the houses get bigger.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3458 times:
As I said in another topic, some of the dollars to Cairo (though probably not all) are a result of the 1978 Camp David accords when we were trying to settle things between Egypt and Israel and IMO they've proved pretty helpful for that alone.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
And who do you think the Palestinians are? Not just Muslims alone. They're people who have lived in these places, have ancestry in the area going back far longer than the founding of Islam. Take your line of reasoning to its conclusion and there are way more people than just the Jewish who have claims on the Holy Land beyond them, too. I'm not sure who can claim to be the true descendants of the Assyrians and Phoenicians these days though. Also, good job putting shrines in scare quotes.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 38, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3448 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
It's been the home to people in general for longer than that. You can bet that there are Palestinians whose ancestors were living in that area long before Muhammad was a gleam in his mother's eye.
The who's-land-is-who's argument is complicated enough from a political standpoint, there's no need to add religion to it.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9823 posts, RR: 17 Reply 39, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3453 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17): Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.
Maybe because Isreal is a "recognized" nation but Palastine is not? Both should exist. Maybe if one recognized the other, things would change?
I wonder, and this is just me thinking out loud, if Isreal hates Palastine so much because Bethlehem is in Palastine and Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus and Palastine is both Muslim and Christian? Stupid reason, I know. Or, maybe because Palastine is both Christian and Muslim, they would not follow Jewish/Israeli law? Another stupid reason, I know.
Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table. In terms of Gaza, they have no regard for the "legitimate" Palestinian government. Remember that it was not Israel who walked away from negotiations.
If the territory of Palestine is a separate state, according to the UN, anything the Israelis do there comes under international law and not just under Israeli law.
This is big. That's why Israel and the US put so much effort into preventing this from happening.
The Palestinians have a self-evidence right to a state.
[Edited 2012-11-30 02:37:21]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
zkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 43, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3339 times:
Congratulations Palestine. It seems that the UN works quite nicely when one superpower or another can't veto any progress made. Locally (and somewhat interestingly), the conservative New Zealand government voted for this (after being silent for a few days so as to avoid extra lobbying from Israel and the US) while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting. Prior to a few days ago, I would have expected the opposite to occur.
Now for a fair peace-deal that addresses settlements, blockades, rockets, right of return and borders.....
Quoting n229nw (Reply 11): It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.
It is rather ironic. It seems that the UN isn't so biased when you have the power (through the US) to veto stuff you don't like.
I don't generally consider bombing residential neighborhoods, using white phosphorous over built up areas and other such war crimes self defense.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 10): That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24): Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go.
Quoting Mir (Reply 31): The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.
Agreed, so long as it is on the Palestinian side of the pre-1967 borders. I'm sure Israel would be rather annoyed if the Palestinians were trying to dictate the location of their capital.
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 44, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3262 times:
"Formal recognition of statehood is something that is done bilaterally, not by the United Nations." seems to have been the mantra in the days leading up to the vote. The US and its supporters, including some of those that abstained, argued repeatedly that Palestine could not be recognised unless they had a binding agreement with Israel. Oddly enough, they seem to not recall that there was no such agreement or requirement when Israel was proclaimed a state and subsequently recognised by the UN.
The double standards and hypocrisy continue to the bitter end.
However, now comes the hard part. We can only hope that there is a willingness on both sides to come to a permanent peace and that the threats and intimidation that were made prior to the vote are not carried out. That would simply be churlish.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 43): while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting.
Although some of the Labor caucus were in favour of a "Yes" vote, the Australian Prime Minister was wanting to vote "No" but was prevailed upon by the argument that it would harm Australia's position in the rest of the region. Australia did not wish to be seen to be going against the US either and all Australian politicians love to travel on Israeli-funded sightseeing tours, so an abstention was seen as the most pragmatic solution.
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 45, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
The counries that voted against it are like a joke look at the list,a few US influenced tiny Islands that need not even be named, Czech Republick and Panama, hilarious.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 46, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3246 times:
Could some of the usual pro Zionist state of Israel explain to me why they do not like it when the Palestinians resort to arm struggle they call them terrorists and when they resort to diplomacy via the UN this in not acceptable either.
I can explain one way then, Israel is not willing nor wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict.
As for Jerusalem, why don't they declare it as an open city ruled by an elected council representing the 3 religions and politically neutral.
Also i find some of the posting here very disturbing, calling for killing and destruction. Surprised it's coming from people living in countries known for there defense of human rights and spreading democracy all over the world.
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 47, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3193 times:
Congratulations Palestine! May this step finally pressure Israel to take the issue seriously.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 40): Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table.
So, it's OK for Israel to have preconditions for anything, but it's not OK for Palestinians to ask for a freeze in settlement constructions (settlements deemed by the international community as illegal and that are in the area designated for Palestinians)?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
jfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1381 posts, RR: 1 Reply 48, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3164 times:
Quoting pvjin (Reply 34): Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.
Braybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5286 posts, RR: 35 Reply 49, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3161 times:
Great news for Palestine, and I'm delighted that we voted in favour. Hopefully it won't be too long before the state of Palestine will enjoy full membership at the UN. It's going to happen eventually, so the sooner it happens the better.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 50, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3057 times:
And Israel has retaliated, by moving forward with plans for settlement expansion that will significantly cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank.
Are they actually trying to justify the Palestinian anger? The West Bank is not the Israeli's problem, yet they keep pushing on them. If you wanted to get a more anti-Israel group elected in the West Bank, this would be the perfect way to go about doing it.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Quote:Baird goes so far as to suggest Canada will take retaliatory measures against the Palestinians for forcing the statehood issue onto the world stage.
Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.
pvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2999 times:
Quoting jfk69 (Reply 48): Say that about the Vatican also?
Yep, it should be definitely just part of Rome instead of its own city state. In my opinion whole place should be made just a huge museum and anyone living there should just go and find a place from Rome to live in.
Tupolev160 From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 319 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2975 times:
Quoting AR385 (Reply 10): These are the countries that voted against:
The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.
It is even hard to call some of these places "countries" at all... Palau? Common, they just wanted some touristic promotion free of charge. They're pretty unknown to the rest of the world and now suddenly everyone will hear about [that great political power of Palau] them.
Czech Republic? I'm very surprised.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 54, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2974 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries
Is about the worst justification you could possibly use for ANY argument regarding who gets what. Shameful.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area.
Boo hoo. Ever considered that maybe, just maybe, if both sides cooperated, it wouldn't be an issue for the religious of any faith to see any of the holy sites in any jurisdiction?
BTW, The Dome of the Rock is more than just a "shrine", unless you consider the Western Wall and the CHS as "shrines".
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
You missed the roughly 1000 years before 1947 when it, well, wasn't.
victrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 443 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2974 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.
Marc
I would love to see my country end all aid to Israel.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 56, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2907 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46): I can explain one way then, Israel is not willing nor wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict.
To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict and I don't think they are as cynical as many here think. I believe they think they're doing what is right, and they don't quite understand the ramifications of their actions, but I think they mean good
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.
So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???
(Please don't ignore me)
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33): The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death.
And much of the city pre-dates Christianity and the Christians have a big presence there. Your point? Should Eastern Europe give all their land to the pagans??
Come on, Cadet985, stop being so bitter. We all win some and lose some battles. I won't lie, I wanted the Palestinians to be a state, but there have been many decisions I disagreed with that became reality. Go forward with a good attitude, griping about it won't change, what, 150 UN countries' minds. If you think Israel has a bigger challenge, go forward and think of ways for Israel to respond to this new set of events... not to be cliche, be a part of the solution, not the problem
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 57, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2882 times:
Quoting zkojq (Reply 43): I don't generally consider bombing residential neighborhoods, using white phosphorous over built up areas and other such war crimes self defense.
Not when terrorists and Hamas are using innocent civilians as human shields.
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 49): It's going to happen eventually, so the sooner it happens the better
Not so long as the US holds a seat on the security council...at least not until Hamas no longer rules Gaza.
Go ahead and do some research. There has been a Jewish presence in the land of Israel for all of that time. Tel Aviv, in fact was founded in 1909, Tsfat - the home of Kabbalah - there are synagogues there that date to the 1300's and 1400's. Read up on your history.
Okay...the US ends aid to Israel. Any politician that agrees to it will be voted out of office quickly. I do not personally know of a single Jew who has missed an election since they were old enough to vote. Also...a lot of the technology we use was developed over there. Go to Tel Aviv, Rishon Lezion, and other cities around there. Practically all the big technology companies have major research labs over there. So okay...end all aid. Maybe the Israeli Government "strongly encourages" those companies not to do as much business with the US. Oh yeah...little known fact...Israel allows us to have military hardware prepositioned there in case we need to use it against say...Iran. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating war with Iran - yet...but if that day comes, I'm glad to know we have assets that can be on the move quickly, as opposed to waiting for MSC ships that can take weeks to get there.
Here is my proposal:
Gaza stays as is. Nobody negotiates with terrorists (namely, Hamas). What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date - meaning buildings built, people living in them. In terms of movement, keep the status quo. Any car entering or exiting the area known as the West Bank is checked at a military checkpoint - this holds true for Israelis, too (I've been through this as a passenger, and all I had to do was show my passport or an ID from the US). It's a 10-30 second or so check that doesn't take any longer then a toll both. I would allow one or two government buildings in Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is not divided in half, and they accept Ramallah as their capital. All religious shrines become accessible to all - mainly, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and all the Christian sites in Bethlehem and Nazareth. These, along with the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Western Wall (along with any sites I'm leaving out) regardless of location are accessible to anyone at anytime, with security checks that are currently in place.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 58, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2878 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 51): Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.
Everyone is aware of the palestinian situation. This little performance at the UN circus won't change the conditions in Gaza. It will however make the Palestinian Authority more sovereign in the West Bank. This UN recognition has nothing to do with hamas and gaza, if anything it separates the two entities even more.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 59, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2847 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57): What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date
What date would that be? Israeli settlements are built on Palestinian land illegally, the people that moved there knew that too well. If they wish to stay then they can become part of the new Palestinian state. If they do not like that option, they can move to Israel. The way the settlements have been built all over the place (with strategic reasoning behind that planning) make it impossible to just divide based on that, you end up with a swiss cheese-looking Palestine. I don't see why the settlers have to be protected in such a way. Did they even have any expenses incurred whatsoever when moving there or was it a free relocation paid by Israel?
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2826 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57): Gaza stays as is. Nobody negotiates with terrorists (namely, Hamas). What is currently the West Bank becomes Palestine, with the exception of Israeli settlements established before a certain date - meaning buildings built, people living in them. In terms of movement, keep the status quo. Any car entering or exiting the area known as the West Bank is checked at a military checkpoint - this holds true for Israelis, too (I've been through this as a passenger, and all I had to do was show my passport or an ID from the US). It's a 10-30 second or so check that doesn't take any longer then a toll both. I would allow one or two government buildings in Jerusalem, but Jerusalem is not divided in half, and they accept Ramallah as their capital. All religious shrines become accessible to all - mainly, the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron, and all the Christian sites in Bethlehem and Nazareth. These, along with the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Western Wall (along with any sites I'm leaving out) regardless of location are accessible to anyone at anytime, with security checks that are currently in place.
the problem with this is that settlements are definetly illegal. Even the US has said so and they will have to come down in any deal. If the settlers want to stay, they should stay on in the new Palestinian state...or relocate to Israel.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 61, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2813 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 59): What date would that be? Israeli settlements are built on Palestinian land illegally, the people that moved there knew that too well. If they wish to stay then they can become part of the new Palestinian state. If they do not like that option, they can move to Israel. The way the settlements have been built all over the place (with strategic reasoning behind that planning) make it impossible to just divide based on that, you end up with a swiss cheese-looking Palestine. I don't see why the settlers have to be protected in such a way. Did they even have any expenses incurred whatsoever when moving there or was it a free relocation paid by Israel?
The date would have to be agreed upon by both parties once the Palestinians decide to return to the table. That isn't fair for me or anyone to speculate on. I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes (again, this would be something both governments would have to work out)...and I've been to one Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and the homes were HUGE.
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2802 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 61): The date would have to be agreed upon by both parties once the Palestinians decide to return to the table. That isn't fair for me or anyone to speculate on. I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes (again, this would be something both governments would have to work out)...and I've been to one Jewish settlement in the West Bank, and the homes were HUGE.
that would be fair...the government or individuals could buy their homes from the settlers. I would support that.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 64, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2784 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 63): I want to think that's true. But they're making it so damn difficult.
Israel and Palestine's wants overlap... neither can have 100% of what they want. Israel is being firm in what they want and fighting for their interests... it is making things harder but beyond that I doubt there is anything really cynical. (There are, of course, extremists on both sides, so finding examples for either side hardly convinces me)
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 65, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2776 times:
Quoting jfk69 (Reply 48): Say that about the Vatican also?
That's another problem altogether.... once again, Religion.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46): Also i find some of the posting here very disturbing, calling for killing and destruction. Surprised it's coming from people living in countries known for there defense of human rights and spreading democracy all over the world.
Israel being one of them.
Quoting 777way (Reply 51): Unbelievable, how dare he try to even think they the Palestine had no right to draw world attention to this situation.
Your right, it is absolutely unbelievable, especially from Canada. I had thought they were more or less independent of the US.
How wrong I was !
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56): To be fair, friend, I think Israel wants a peaceful resolution to the conflict and I don't think they are as cynical as many here think.
C'mon now. DeltaMD90,
Israel has just announced more settlement building, and you say you think Israel wants "a peaceful resolution to the conflict"
Sorry, but it doesn't look like Israel really wants that to me.
The settlement building is a massive part of the problem, Israel knows this, but just goes on and on.
Well as far as Im concerned, Israel should be dragged to the negotiating table, by the US, and made to capitulate, and told to STOP building.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56): Come on, Cadet985, stop being so bitter.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 66, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65): Israel should be dragged to the negotiating table, by the US, and made to capitulate, and told to STOP building.
Israel never walked away from the negotiating table. It was Abu Mazen who did. Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions. Also, no government can force another to do anything. Do you really think Obama is going to call Netanyahu, and tell him to stop the building, and he'll just say okay?
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 67, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2746 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65): C'mon now. DeltaMD90,
Israel has just announced more settlement building, and you say you think Israel wants "a peaceful resolution to the conflict"
They are prone to hypocrisy like everyone else. I'm just saying I believe the average Israeli wants peace just like 99% of the world's population. I won't deny that it's no coincidence the settlement building commenced right after Palestine got semi-statehood...
cws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1167 posts, RR: 2 Reply 68, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2727 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66): Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions.
Palestine would like to be recognized as an independent state. Is that a precondition? If so, is it an unreasonable precondition?
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 69, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2719 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66): Israel never walked away from the negotiating table.
I am not talking about the past.
I mean now, today, since the Israelis think its smart to announce the building of 3000 new homes in a new settlement, the day after the Palestinians get the UN vote.
Bring Israel into the UN, and ask them why?
What was the "motivation" for Israel, to announce such an Inflammatory signal towards the Palestinians at this time ?
It is nothing more than sheer provocation, on the side of the Israelis, and nothing else.
We hear Bibi, get up in front of the worlds press, and say time and time again, that Israel wants peace.
Yeah.... well, if this is how he, and his government, go about showing that, then its a load of complete and utter, Bullshit !
And I really don't think to many people here, in this forum, who would argue otherwise. Except for Cadet985
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67): I'm just saying I believe the average Israeli wants peace just like 99% of the world's population.
Then, why do they continue to vote governments in, that are opposed to "decreasing" settlement building, instead of constantly expanding like they continue to do on a daily basis ?
I'm afraid DeltaMD90, I'm not as sure as you seem to be about, the Israelis really wanting peace.
I now really believe, its just lip service, spewed out in enormous volumes, by the Israeli Government PR machine, while all the time they continue to build, build, build, knowing full well, that if they can keep up this "illusion" of wanting peace etc, there will be no viable land left for Palestinian inhabitants to have.
It is criminal, that's what it is !
[Edited 2012-11-30 23:23:40]
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14331 posts, RR: 26 Reply 70, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2704 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69): I'm afraid DeltaMD90, I'm not as sure as you seem to be about, the Israelis really wanting peace.
The Israelis want peace, but they don't need peace. They can afford to do it only on their terms: keep settlements, no Palestinian state, whatever walls and checkpoints they please, and so on. A real solution helps them, but not that much. Not enough to make meaningful concessions. If the Palestinians insist in rolling back settlements or having a state of their own the Israelis can just leave the table and keep their modern, successful country and allow the Palestinians to remain in their ghettos.
The Palestinians, on the other hand, need an agreement to make any sort of life for themselves with freedom and not being second class citizens. As it is, they are effectively living under apartheid and can be stomped by the Israelis at any time. I'm not convinced anyone can or would do anything to stop it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 71, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2702 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 70): If the Palestinians insist in rolling back settlements or having a state of their own the Israelis can just leave the table and keep their modern, successful country and allow the Palestinians to remain in their ghettos.
And then when the rockets start coming from the West Bank, the Israelis will have to do some looking in the mirror to figure out why.
The actions the Israeli government has taken in the West Bank are entirely consistent with a strategy of provoking the Palestinians into striking back, at which point Israel could justify swift and severe military action, and then rinse and repeat. I really hope somebody in that government is smart enough to see that that strategy won't work long term.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 72, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2666 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69): I now really believe, its just lip service, spewed out in enormous volumes, by the Israeli Government PR machine, while all the time they continue to build, build, build, knowing full well, that if they can keep up this "illusion" of wanting peace etc, there will be no viable land left for Palestinian inhabitants to have.
Exactly that seems to be the plan and I would not be surprised if those supporting them in the delay tactics are involved in this game as well.
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 73, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2602 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 66): Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly stated that he is ready for negotiations to resume at any time as long as there are no preconditions.
Let's say that Abbas decides to go to the table without a freeze in settlements. What's to assure Abbas that Netanyahu won't beat around the bush until there are so many settlements that a Palestinian state will be confined to Gaza alone? The West Bank itself is slowly being taken over by Jewish settlements (settlements which I'm sure Israel will claim and theirs in the event of an agreement).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 74, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2587 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 71): The actions the Israeli government has taken in the West Bank are entirely consistent with a strategy of provoking the Palestinians into striking back
Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves. Israel has helped make things worse, but the Palestinians are far from saints and they haven't been the easiest to make peace with.
I'm well aware of Israel's stubbornness, but Palestine itself has its quirks that do nothing to help the peace process. Add in firing rockets and it is easy to see why Israel does some of the things it does (which, of course, is no excuse for some of Israel's actions, but as they say, it takes two to tango)
victrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 443 posts, RR: 1 Reply 75, posted (5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2592 times:
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 73): The West Bank itself is slowly being taken over by Jewish settlements (settlements which I'm sure Israel will claim and theirs in the event of an agreement).
There are so many Jewish settlements on the West Bank already that the time for a 2 state solution is probably passed. What does Israel plan to do with the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank? Give them Israeli citizenship and voting rights? Expell them? The Jews may one day find themselves a minority in a so called Jewish state.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 77, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2581 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76): Oh, and BTW, there has been a non-Jewish presence in that land for even longer. And it's very telling that you ignore this post:
By the Bedouins? They live in peace and harmony with the Israelis, and in fact, many Bedouins serve in the IDF. Same with the Druze on both areas. Maybe you're thinking of the Philistines...but they lived in what is now Gaza.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 76): Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):
So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57):
Read up on your history.
While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 78, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2572 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 77): While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.
...and that completely ignores the question: should we give the Native Americans all of their old land back?
If not, why?
Can you see how "historical homelands" and the "Jews inhabiting Israel 5773 years ago" is not the best of justifications?
Times have changed, and we are not living in the past. Instead of adopting the same, tired arguments that aren't convincing anyone (as we see with public opinion changing) come up with new solutions and arguments, help fix the problem. There isn't some global conspiracy against Jews, we simply think a lot of Israel's actions are unwise. Like me, I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.
I listen to and consider everyone's arguments. Perhaps you should try to seriously analyze the other side's arguments (or at least the arguments from neutral parties) if you haven't already.
Sticking to your guns is a losing battle, considering the changing opinions. Move from you position a bit and help convince people of a solution that will help Israel, respect Palestine, and garnish enough support to make it a reality
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 79, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2561 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 77): While there are not as many of them as there once were, thanks to disease, the Wild West, intermarriage, etc., there are still a large number of Native Americans in existence. Not just on reservations either. I went to college with a couple just outside NYC. I forget what tribe they were from.
Thank you for the history lesson. Now if you'll please answer the question:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56): So America should give up all its land to the Native Americans? They pre-dated us. What do you have to say about that???
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 80, posted (5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2562 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 71): And then when the rockets start coming from the West Bank, the Israelis will have to do some looking in the mirror to figure out why.
I don't think the Israeli's mind all that much. Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years. Palestinians are their own enemy, they hold their future in their own hands. So far it doesn't look too well for them, Israel on the other hand, is doing just fine.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 81, posted (5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2551 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74): Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves.
Expansion of Israeli settlements is entirely on Israel.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74): Add in firing rockets and it is easy to see why Israel does some of the things it does
We're talking about the West Bank here, Gaza is another issue. I'm not aware of any significant violence from the West Bank in recent years. Yet they get rewarded with more settlements. It seems no good deed goes unpunished.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 80): I don't think the Israeli's mind all that much. Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years.
You say that as if you'd like it to happen.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 80): Palestinians are their own enemy, they hold their future in their own hands.
Except they don't. The West Bank has been well behaved, yet there is not even a framework for a peace plan in sight, Israel isn't treating them any differently, and the settlements are still being expanded. In other words, Israel is doing its best to send the message that the Palestinians are powerless to change their condition, at least peacefully. I can only hope that the current Israeli government will be replaced with one that recognizes that if you want to discourage a certain behavior, it's best to reward the other party when the behavior stops, not keep beating them like you did before.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 83, posted (5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2500 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 74): Hey now, a lot of Palestine's woes come directly from Palestine themselves. Israel has helped make things worse, but the Palestinians are far from saints and they haven't been the easiest to make peace with.
I really think we have established this already, so lets not labor the point shall we.
Israels action yesterday, in announcing the building of 3000 new homes on yet more stolen land, and another illegal settlement, and I say Illegal because the UN has stated so, is outrageous, and nothing less.
How on earth can the Israelis expect the Palestinians to play ball, and sit down at the "i will screw you table" with this crap going on before them.
Give me a reason, why that should be the case in this instance, not talking about earlier times, but yesterdays actions .
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 78): I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.
What exactly is your opinion of the new announcement of 3000 new homes, in yet another illegal settlement ?
Quoting powerslide (Reply 80): Those rockets coming into Israel give them a reason to further flatten that little strip of land back a few years.
And it also give the rest of the world more examples of precisely why Israel couldn't and shouldn't be trusted. EVER!
Quoting powerslide (Reply 80): Israel on the other hand, is doing just fine.
Israels international reputation is in tatters, and rightly so.
They have just been booted so hard in the ass.Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote. How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!
That in itself speaks volumes wouldn't you say ?
Quoting Mir (Reply 81): You say that as if you'd like it to happen.
That's an understatement if ever I heard one !
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 84, posted (5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 82): When Israel left Gaza it turned into a terrorist breeding ground.
What other options were there? Israel bombs the place repeatedly and yet basic building materials for constructing anything out of the rubble are tightly restricted by Israel's blockade, along with a wide variety of other economic goods. And Israel is willing to target almost any structure or location in Gaza if they feel it is a security threat, so there's not much if anything to fall back to. The economic and travel restrictions only serve to empower the terrorists there, because no one else really has an opportunity to offer anything.
Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war. The IDF is far superior to any other military in the region and it doesn't boast well for the Arabs that a couple of US carrier battle groups are trolling the med.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote.
Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): That in itself speaks volumes wouldn't you say ?
It doesn't speak anything in my view. There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state. Fact is, Israel can pretty much do anything they want and there is nothing that the peanut gallery countries of the UN can do about it.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 86, posted (5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2480 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.
If that's so, the discussion about Palestine shouldn't really be something that bothers you...
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war.
I don't think that's really what he meant. Though your jumping straight to "war against everybody" is still a useful thing to note if only because it illustrates the persistent siege mindset that is probably fairly unavoidable for a country that was fighting off its direct neighbors three or four times in the first fifty years of its history and is purposefully culturally separated from those neighbors.
Israel, has been shown time and time again that it can't be trusted, this is just another one of those times.
Normally, nearly all member states would have voted with Israel and the US, blindly....
But NOT this time
It further proves my point the the world is tiring of Israel and the games it plays
Whether you like it or not, support is waning, and its lonely out there with no friends on the world stage.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.
Ok then, if as you say the UN is useless, then why is Israel a part if it ?
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state.
Oh, its not unfortunate at all, as time rolls on, and Israels actions become clearer and clearer to the international community (like the new illegal 3000 settlements etc...), you just watch them drop off like flies!
The world is tired of it.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Fact is, Israel can pretty much do anything they want and there is nothing that the peanut gallery countries of the UN can do about it.
This sort of outlandish arrogant comment, further cements my views on Israel.
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 87): This sort of outlandish arrogant comment, further cements my views on Israel.
That's fine. People posting on forums don't have an impact on Israel's domestic policy. In fact, much of the complaining and whining by the UN doesn't do much. Again, I don't agree with what Israel is doing in some areas but realistically the way this whole situation is being handled by the international community is non productive.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.
Just remember powerslide, that when you are critizising the UN, you are also critisizing it's members who happen to include Canada and the USA. The UN is an organization that can only be as good and effective as it's member states wants it to be.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 90, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2409 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Who is going to do it? No one has the balls to attack Israel and her allies in a conventional war. The IDF is far superior to any other military in the region and it doesn't boast well for the Arabs that a couple of US carrier battle groups are trolling the med.
Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.
Pu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, RR: 12 Reply 91, posted (5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): There are only maybe 8-10 countries on the world stage that can forcefully stop Israel, unfortunately for you, those 8-10 countries all allies to the Jewish state.
Might you address a few of my points?
1. I'm not sure about your calculations, but I wouldn't call Russia or China "allies of the Jewish state," would you?
2. Pakistan already has nuclear technology and Iran may have it anytime between now and 2015. The "suitcase nuke" is largely implausible, but nevertheless Israel is so tiny that one nuke would be nation-ending and a host of other unconventional warfare tactics are similarly catastrophic for a nation with exactly 1 commercially important city. You may be right that few could win against the IDF, but it seems to me they don't have to.
3. IMO Israel's current militant posture is sustainable only so long as America's position as an unchallenged superpower is in place. When this ends, Israel better have made a permanent peace or Israel ends itself...the clock is ticking.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90): Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.
Incumbent to Israel's long term existence is peace with their neighbours and resolution of the Palestinian dispute. The current paradigm of power among nations and blocks in the world is already shifting.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 92, posted (5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2384 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 88): Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.
"Can't behave," or weren't given a chance, owing to the reasons I listed above? As long as Israel continues to wield so much power over Gaza as to stifle the growth of meaningful opportunity for its population, it doesn't matter whether they have occupied the place or not.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!
Three of whom are US influenced tiny and irrelevant Island nations, and not even really worthy of any mention, I didnt even know Palau existed till 2006 when Asiana Airlines decided to fly there, in South Asia we have a dish called Palau i.e rice cooked in chicken or vegetable stock.
I can well imagine the taunts by pro-Israel lobby here if the table was turned and only six countries had voted in favour of Palestine, ones like Maldives, Brunei, Seychelles, they would have left no opprtunity to make a joke of it and at the same time boast about the 150 others who voted for Israel.
BTW what were the 'Peanut Gallery' states at the UN called when they voted in favour of Israel all these decades?
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 94, posted (5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2356 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 88): Since the Palestinians show they can't behave the only solution is the re-occupation of Gaza. I think the better option is a NATO contingent of ground troops to patrol Gaza.
Except that NATO has no duty to Israel whatsoever. Many complained when NATO enforced the no-fly one over Libya, imagine if it were to start another patrol mission, on a strip that's no danger to anyone except Southern Israel.
And what about those in the West Bank? Haven't they behaved properly?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 95, posted (5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2328 times:
Quoting einsteinboricua
"And what about those in the West Bank? Haven't they behaved properly?"
This is the question that no one of the apologists for the Israeli stance will reply. I have asked the question over and over, why is it that the dispossession is continuing in the West Bank when Abbas has tried the peaceful path of negotiation and diplomacy?
From those who did not ignore the question, every reply has been Gaza. Military responses have occurred in Gaza but the people who are being kicked off their land are in the West Bank. The simple fact is that those who have the greatest influence in Israel and their most strident supporters elsewhere believe that the West Bank is part of the Jewish Homeland. They do not wish to give it up, plain and simple. Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.
I can not help but think that Israel's links with Hamas go beyond its initial funding and deep infiltration. Every time it looks as if a deal might be forthcoming we see a "provocation" from Gaza. Is this purely coincidental or is it planned by those who have infiltrated? I am not saying this is the case, just thinking out loud. This latest round of violence seemed very contrived, appearing in the run up to Palestine's application at the UN and the elections that are due in Israel. If Israel had hoped that a revulsion against "terrorists" would lead to a solid no vote, they were sadly disappointed.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 96, posted (5 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2310 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 90): Read history and learn, How strong were the British? The French, the Greeks? Sooner or later Israel will face the same faith that's why peace for them is a must. Who lives by the gun will die from it, remember and learn.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 97, posted (5 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2301 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 78):
I consider myself pro-Israel (see reply 74) but I'm still gonna call them out when I see them doing something wrong.
What exactly is your opinion of the new announcement of 3000 new homes, in yet another illegal settlement ?
I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!
I call myself pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because, like I said before, my beliefs and stances (IMO) are fair to both sides and will defend either or criticize either. In this thread alone, I've criticized Israel, criticized Palestine, defended Israel, and defended Palestine.
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 98, posted (5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2271 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97):
I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!
I call myself pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because, like I said before, my beliefs and stances (IMO) are fair to both sides and will defend either or criticize either. In this thread alone, I've criticized Israel, criticized Palestine, defended Israel, and defended Palestine.
Thus is the plight of a moderate on the Internet. Reasoned positions that weigh the concerns of both sides are for people who don't get into two-hundred-reply virtual shouting matches.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 99, posted (5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2258 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 96): The same will hold true for Hamas...
Hamas is a part of the Palestinian problem not the solution, if it disappear things might change a little, but not much, can you say the same about Israel?
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 100, posted (5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2251 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 99): Hamas is a part of the Palestinian problem not the solution, if it disappear things might change a little, but not much, can you say the same about Israel?
Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around. It's not often you and I agree on something, but we can agree that Hamas is a big part of the problem.
Mortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3228 posts, RR: 2 Reply 101, posted (5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2200 times:
In response to Palestine has gotten observer status at the UN, Israel hold back money that should have been paid to the Palestinian Authority.
The Israeli government will not pay 92.7 million euros which should have been paid in December, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced Sunday. The money is tax-and tariff bonds which Israel collects for the Palestinians.
- We have always said that we will react to a new status in the United Nations for Palestine. I have no intention of paying the money this month. They will be used to pay the Palestinian Authority's debt to the Israeli electricity company, said Steinitz.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 102, posted (5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2164 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 100): Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around.
Sincerely hope not, Cadet985 - for the sake of the 'Jewish people' to whom you refer, as well as the rest of us.
If history, over the last two thousand years or so, teaches us anything at all, it is that religion and politics don't mix. That's been true ever since the Crusades in the Middle Ages.
The only system that appears to have ANY chance of ensuring 'peace and prosperity' for the population of the world, for any extended period, appears to be the one adopted by the victorious Western Powers - and therefore by the majority of other countries, including places which had been on the other side, like Germany and Japan - after 1945. That system was, and remains, basically a matter of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from poverty (meaning governments that treat all their subjects equally), and protection from any persecution of any one group in a given society by any other.
No-one ever said it better, or shorter, than one of the 20th. Century's greatest statesmen - President Franklin D. Roosevelt:-
"In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms. The first is freedom of speech and expression—everywhere in the world. The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way—everywhere in the world. The third is freedom from want—which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants—everywhere in the world. The fourth is freedom from fear—which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world. That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation."
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 100): Israel will be around as long as the Jewish people are around. It's not often you and I agree on something, but we can agree that Hamas is a big part of the problem.
That post shows that you reject the 'four freedoms,' and instead favour a regime in Israel based on religious prejudice - apparently against all religions other than the Jewish one.
Having lived through WW2 as a small child, I'm quite confident that prejudiced people like you will fail. Only thing is, back in 1939-45, it took a long time and cost many lives. It appears only too possible that the (pretty drastic) religious intolerance currently being practised in Israel is likely also to persist for quite a long time - and cost many more lives before it is finally ended.
[Edited 2012-12-02 06:36:43]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 103, posted (5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2107 times:
I was just thinking... why did the Obama administration vote no? Not trying to be cynical, but there is no election he has to worry about, and it seemed that this administration doesn't automatically bend backwards for Israel and tends to be a bit more Palestinian-friendly. He is a liberal, and most of the liberals I know tend to support statehood.
I mean, he could just be personally against it, but is there something bigger? Now would've been the perfect time to accept statehood IMO
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 104, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2097 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103): I was just thinking... why did the Obama administration vote no? Not trying to be cynical, but there is no election he has to worry about, and it seemed that this administration doesn't automatically bend backwards for Israel and tends to be a bit more Palestinian-friendly. He is a liberal, and most of the liberals I know tend to support statehood.
I mean, he could just be personally against it, but is there something bigger? Now would've been the perfect time to accept statehood IMO
Maybe because he doesn't want Israel's ultraright to win the upcoming elections? By voting to appease Israel, the Netanyahu coalition has other issues to worry about. Had they voted yes or abstained (which IMO was the best decision), the Netanyahu coalition would have pressed on on how their security is at risk and how the US no longer supports them, blah blah blah...
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
santi319 From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0 Reply 105, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2087 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 101): In response to Palestine has gotten observer status at the UN, Israel hold back money that should have been paid to the Palestinian Authority.
The Israeli government will not pay 92.7 million euros which should have been paid in December, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz announced Sunday. The money is tax-and tariff bonds which Israel collects for the Palestinians.
- We have always said that we will react to a new status in the United Nations for Palestine. I have no intention of paying the money this month. They will be used to pay the Palestinian Authority's debt to the Israeli electricity company, said Steinitz.
And this is exactly what I mean! The world needs to know more about what the Israeli Government does to the Palestinians. As a second generation Palestinian I was always very center in this matter, until I spend some time in the West Bank and saw for myself the horrible things Israeli Military does to Palestinians. I still can't believe nobody does anything about it. About 18% of the Palestinian population practices Christiniaty, yet they get treated like extreme Mulsim terrorists. I know slowly the truth is coming out and the world will get to see the horrors the Palestinian people have to endure because of Israel's Government.
Notice how I always refer them as Israel's Government. Because spending some time in Israel I have the best Israeli friends, and they are very fair when it comes to this conflict (most of them from Tel Aviv, of course). Not all of the Israeli population supports the horrible government they have, if that's what you want to call those tirans. The problem is that like my friends, most of the population in Israel that believe in Palestinian rights, don't act upon it, they could show the world the caring, lovable people they really are, but they don't, and I don't know why, and that is my only problem with them.
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 106, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2075 times:
santi319 From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0 Reply 107, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2063 times:
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 106): How do most Palestinians view Israelis in general?
In the West Bank I know Israeli extremist are seen as terrible as Muslim extremists. But we don't talk about that. You wake up with a wall in your face everyday, there's really nothing else to talk about. Except when Israeli soldiers randomly pull over your cousins (3 female Christians) and start doing a search for their car, their clothes, everything. One of them is 16, and all of this is in the West Bank as they cannot even enter Israel. And the three of them are US Citizens, with US passports. Yes it is that bad, and nobody does anything about it. So what do we think, nothing absolutely nothing.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 108, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2052 times:
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 95): Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.
That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102): If history, over the last two thousand years or so, teaches us anything at all, it is that religion and politics don't mix.
Religion has been the biggest cancer for mankind. This whole Israeli-Palestinian bullshit could be solved overnight if they stopped looking at it from a religious standpoint. In the end they are both humans.
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 109, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2010 times:
That's horrible ;(. I know there are many peace organizations in Isreal but they also get drowned out by the extremists. I think if the intifada hadn't happened, the wall would have never gone up and things wouldn't have been as bad as they are now. I think your cousins need to complain to the US authorities...
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 110, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2014 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 108): That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.
This is a two way street, why don't you sent all the immigrants after 48 to where they came from and return the land to the true owners not to the thieves.
Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 112, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1967 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 108): That would be the easiest solution. Jordan, and the rest of the Arab middle east for that matter, doesn't want the Palestinian problem either.
Why would any country want to just accept millions of people? You can be 1: for Palestinians and 2: not want millions of refugees in your country at the same time. I mean, how do you even argue that logically? It's as ridiculous as Native Americans wanting Canada back and sending you and the millions of other Canadians back to Britain and France. Sounds silly when you flip it around, doesn't it?
TheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 6 Reply 113, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1960 times:
Quoting santi319 (Reply 105): About 18% of the Palestinian population practices Christiniaty, yet they get treated like extreme Mulsim terrorists.
That's starting to change. The Palestinian Christians in the West Bank have a lot of political backing from the UK, Canada, and the United States. Over the past 10 years, the Israeli government has been increasingly persuaded to loosen up on the Palestinian Christians. They are generally considered "low risk", and are afforded more privileges than the Muslims and secular Arabs. It's a slow process though, and only a handful of Palestinian Christians have been granted travel visas by the Israeli government.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14331 posts, RR: 26 Reply 114, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1960 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 112): Why would any country want to just accept millions of people?
That entire idea is all based on a racist premise: "They're all brown skinned towel heads, they can take care of each other."
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
WestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 7 Reply 115, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1935 times:
Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 28): Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...
Grow a pair.....
Thank you all and have a good evening
More anti-Canada sentiment from thegreatRDU, how shocking
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 65): Your right, it is absolutely unbelievable, especially from Canada. I had thought they were more or less independent of the US.
How wrong I was !
Part of it was likely influenced by our biggest ally and trading partner, but if you cared to do an ounce of research, you would read that PM Stephen Harper had well explained Canada's reason for voting the way we did. I believe Canada's reason for voting no was a whole lot better than any other country's reason for voting no (except for the Czech Republic, I have no idea where that one came from).
But hey, who am I to let facts get in the way of a good smear...
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): And it also give the rest of the world more examples of precisely why Israel couldn't and shouldn't be trusted. EVER!
It's pretty clear from your comments that you aren't so much pro-Palestine as you are anti-Israel. I respect your right to have an opinion, but at least own it rather than hiding it under the guise of supporting a region's statehood.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 85): Oh no, not the UN! Not the group of talking heads that don't have the capacity to do anything other than issue resolutions and nasty letters. Useless.
I'll agree that the UN is rather useless in this matter. This resolution really resolves nothing. But I would be weary to complete write-off the entire organization as useless, because they have done some good in other areas.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97): I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!
Welcome to the world of being a moderate. One side or the other is going to say you're wrong no matter what you say
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 116, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1935 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110): This is a two way street, why don't you sent all the immigrants after 48 to where they came from and return the land to the true owners not to the thieves.
How about we give back all the land that was "stolen" over the course of mankind. Wars change lines on borders, the Arabs, who are quite good at losing, can't seem to grasp that concept.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110): Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.
Don't like it, live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114): they can take care of each other.
Actually in the last few years they've shown quite the opposite. Taking care of each other isn't something they do well.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 117, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1911 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 97): I'm against it, of course. I'm getting hit by both sides here!
Ok. I was just trying to establish where you stood on this latest development from Israel (3000 new homes and another illegal settlement)
As you have said previously, you are Pro Israeli, which is fine and I respect that. but what will it take, for you to change that point of view, or will you always have it ?
How many more land grabs and illegal settlement buildings by Bibi and the cronies, will it take for you to say, well, what you are doing is wrong and it must stop, I can no longer go along with this POV by being supportive of you ?
Several several years ago, my attitude towards Israel and its policy's of sheer discrimination against innocent people, even their own citizens. This caused me to have a bit of a rethink and take a closer look.... And I didn't like what I saw.
I acknowledged fully that the Palestinians are no angles, and certainly do there fair share of causing grief for the Israelis, however they are the underdog here, and very much so, that has been established without dispute.
Israel, on the other hand has the support of the west (although that appears to be rapidly changing, and can no longer be taken as a given)
If Israel is going to fight, then make it a fair and even battle.
And after the hideous actions of WW11, Israel of ALL countries, should know this more than anyone !
And now this from Israel, in retaliation for the Palestinian bid.
"JERUSALEM: Israel exacted a price for the United Nation's de facto recognition of Palestine on Sunday by confiscating $115 million in revenue even as the Palestinian president triumphantly told thousands of followers: "Now we have a state."
"The decision was the latest sign of Israel's mounting fury over last week's vote. Two days earlier Mr Netanyahu's government announced it would build 3000 settlers' home in east Jerusalem and the West Bank, effectively annexing land the Palestinians have earmarked as part of a future state.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115): It's pretty clear from your comments that you aren't so much pro-Palestine as you are anti-Israel. I respect your right to have an opinion, but at least own it rather than hiding it under the guise of supporting a region's statehood.
I have never hidden my views on this topic, once. They are there for all to see.
I am against continual provocation towards the Pal's by the Israelis, and I am not about to stop calling it out when I see regular news reports about continued illegal settlement and land grabs,threats to withhold revenue, from a country which is already in tatters, what can the Palestinians do, except lob a few crude missiles over the fence.
I strongly feel that the Israelis are playing dangerous physiological games here, dangerous games, in as much as we have seen hoe the Pal's react to certain issues. We can all see Israel pushing the buttons, ramping the pressure up, but for what reason, only to provoke ?
If that reasoning makes me anti Israeli and I shout hard and loud for the Pals, then so be it .
Quoting powerslide (Reply 116): Actually in the last few years they've shown quite the opposite. Taking care of each other isn't something they do well.
And instead if Israel taking the moral high ground, they throw petrol on the fire, time and time again.
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 118, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1888 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 116): the Arabs, who are quite good at losing, can't seem to grasp that concept.
We can afford to loose a couple of wars, but Israel can not loose one, again go back to history and learn. Time is not on the side of Israel neither is history.
NO they want to live in there land and homes stolen by the Zionsts how difficult is this to understand? If i come tomorrow with a gun and throw you out of your house by force will you simply find somewhere else to live?
Quoting powerslide (Reply 116): There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.
I am sure that the Jewish religion does not allow discrimination based on religion.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 119, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1887 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1): Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.
Agreed. I'm proud of my government's strong support of Israel. and our vote on this issue.
It's very unfortunate that so few Western countries chose to stand with our ally, Israel.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115): Part of it was likely influenced by our biggest ally and trading partner,
Actually, I don't agree. Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115): (except for the Czech Republic, I have no idea where that one came from).
I agree, I don't know where that came from either. Anyway, kudos to the Czech Rep for not following the EU's non-leadership on this issue.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 113): The Palestinian Christians in the West Bank have a lot of political backing from the UK, Canada, and the United States.
As they should. If there is one community that can act as a "bridge" between Israel and the Palestinian leadership, it is Palestinian Christians who themselves have suffered discrimination from the Palestinian muslim majority. But this highlights a bigger issue: Palestine is splitting into 2 "nations": an increasingly prosperous West Bank (albeit with Israeli settlements) and an isolated, militant and impoverished Gaza. Perhaps the 2 groups should be treated as two separate Palestinian "nations" for future peace discussions.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 110): Why don't you tell that to the Israeli PM and ask him to stop calling Israel the Jewish state, where non Jews are treated like second and third class citizens.
Non-Jews in Israel are better treated that ANYONE else in the Middle East outside Israel. Saudi Arabia won't even allow Jewish visitors. As for Christians entering Saudi Arabia, bibles are confiscated upon entry, churches are not allowed in SA, and visiting Mecca is not allowed. The world would be a better place if SA would raise its human rights records to the very high level of Israel.....
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 120, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1884 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117): As you have said previously, you are Pro Israeli, which is fine and I respect that. but what will it take, for you to change that point of view, or will you always have it ?
Well in my book, pro-Israel doesn't mean "support them blindly." Some people say they do not have a right to exist--I believe they do (at least now, maybe back 64 years ago I'd have a different opinion but we can't go back.) I think a lot of Palestine's woes are due to Israel but I also believe that a lot are created by the Palestinians themselves. And when Israel was about to invade due to the rockets recently... although I disagreed with a lot of their actions prior, I could not blame them for wanting to stop the missile strikes (that single action alone, in a vacuum, I could see myself getting behind, though if I were in charge, I'd do a 180 on other policies that would have probably stopped the rockets, at least for a while.)
Like I said before, I've been pretty hard on Israel in these threads since the tide seems to be supporting Israel blindly and being against the Palestinians. But when I see Israel getting criticized unfairly (IMO) I'll speak out
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 115): Welcome to the world of being a moderate. One side or the other is going to say you're wrong no matter what you say
Lol no kidding. But TheCommodore is at least respectful about it, I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 121, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1873 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): It's very unfortunate that so few Western countries chose to stand with our ally, Israel.
Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally? What has Israel done to deserve being called an ally? The US and UK are allies because they both fought in the same wars and have expanding economic ties. The US and Canada are allies: same reason. I can't call Israel an ally when a blank check goes one way and causes turmoil in the region.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 122, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1858 times:
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 121): Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally?
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
These values absolutely bind the West with Israel. We are Israel; Israel is us.
No other nation in the Middle East shares (any of) these values.
Btw, I am not Jewish, nor do I have any ties to Israel. I simply recognize and support a small, but vibrant and important, piece of the West in a dark and violent Middle East.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 123, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1851 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 118): Time is not on the side of Israel neither is history.
What does this mean? The Arabs don't have the capacity or capability to remove Israel by force. When the oil runs out in the middle east so will the money. Doesn't look for the Arabs at all....
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 118): NO they want to live in there land and homes stolen by the Zionsts how difficult is this to understand?
How difficult to understand that the land won't be returned, ever, the way things are going they are now. Fighting Israel won't win you any battles or get the land back. Either disarm or accept the way things are now.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 117): And instead if Israel taking the moral high ground, they throw petrol on the fire, time and time again.
So you are blaming Israel for all the Arab on Arab deaths in the past few years? Not surprised. The Zionists are responsible for the Arab spring.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 124, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1849 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 108): This whole Israeli-Palestinian bullshit could be solved overnight if they stopped looking at it from a religious standpoint.
Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 116): Don't like it, live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries in the world that accept non Jews.
There are plenty of countries in the world that accept Jews, why does Israel need to keep expanding their West Bank settlements instead of just saying "look, we're run out of space within our borders to build, sorry but we can't let you in right now"? Or perhaps they could just build more homes that are actually within their pre-1967 borders - there's a thought.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 125, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1844 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): Non-Jews in Israel are better treated that ANYONE else in the Middle East outside Israel.
That's not good enough. Palestinians are not in good shape and Israel is effectively their government, or near enough to it as long as they don't have one of their own. And if your only standard for basic treatment of human beings is "eh, better than Saudi Arabia," well, that's just having low standards.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122): Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
These values absolutely bind the West with Israel. We are Israel; Israel is us.
Disagree somewhat; Israel is closer to "our values" than its neighbors but it also has a very distinct difference in that it is founded and operated with a specific religious purpose.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14331 posts, RR: 26 Reply 126, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1843 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122): Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
They may believe in those values, just not enough to let Palestinians in on the human rights, rule of law, and freedom of movement bits.
Besides, it's minimizing the value of the Israelis to support them just because they are supposedly the only outpost of Western values in the land of the uncivilized untermenschen.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 127, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1843 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 126): they are supposedly the only outpost of Western values in the land of the uncivilized untermenschen.
And I don't even buy that argument. I find it hard to believe honestly. It seems like a made up argument, supporting Israel because they're more "Western" than their neighbors. A lot of people that are strangely uncompassionate all of the sudden become so concerned about democracy all around the world. I mean, I'm sure there are some people like that out there, but not as many as there claims to be
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 128, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1844 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122): Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights,
Have to disagree,yyz717. Israel is in flagrant breach of most, if not all, the 'values' to which you refer.
For a start, they take religious discrimination to extreme levels; effectively only allowing people of the Jewish faith to immigrate to Israel, and quite obviously not just barring any Muslims at all from entering the place, but taking active steps (by continually taking over and demolishing the Palestinians' houses on the West Bank, and building Jewish settlements in their place) to drive yet more Muslims out, and take their land without compensation (as they have done since 1948).
They also discriminate (on an increasing scale) against Arab citizens of Israel:-
"Reporting from Jerusalem — Israel's conservative-led Knesset adopted two controversial laws Wednesday that critics warned will worsen discrimination against the nation's Arab minority and make it easier to prevent Arab citizens from moving into hundreds of Jewish towns and villages.
"One law legalizes the practice of using "admissions committees" in small towns in the Negev and Galilee to reject would-be residents based on their social "suitability," a vague term opponents fear could be used to bar gays, black Israelis, single women, Christians, Muslims and secular families as well as Arabs.
"The second law is aimed at imposing fines on Arab towns, local authorities and state-funded organizations that commemorate Nakba Day, which falls near Israel's Independence Day. Some Arab Israelis refer to the day Israel gained statehood as a nakba, or catastrophe, because it resulted in the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians.
"This is not just a racist law, it's an oppressive law," said Hassan Jabareen, founder of Adalah, an Israeli advocacy group focusing on legal rights of Arab citizens. "It sends the public message that Israel not only doesn't respect the history and memory of the Palestinian people, but they now prohibit Palestinians living under their regime from commemorating their own history and identity."
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14331 posts, RR: 26 Reply 129, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1839 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 127): And I don't even buy that argument. I find it hard to believe honestly. It seems like a made up argument, supporting Israel because they're more "Western" than their neighbors.
The entire idea rests on the premise that Arabs are savages who cannot be trusted to form and run their own states or allow anyone else to run theirs and who must be shown proper values by their more enlightened (read white) counterparts.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 130, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1842 times:
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 125): That's not good enough. Palestinians are not in good shape and Israel is effectively their government,
The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them. The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now. Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.
einsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, RR: 6 Reply 131, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1834 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122): Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 121):
Forgive me for asking but how can Israel be considered an ally?
Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
You might want to check up on that because all the Gulf Monarchies don't
Quote: share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
and they are considered allies as well. Heck, look at Pakistan, another "ally".
I'm calling BS on that.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 132, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1832 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them. The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now. Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.
If Israel is going to make regular military incursions, restrict travel, and ban various imports to these Palestinian locations, the responsibility for their economic outcomes is unavoidable. I figure Gaza gets lots of military supplies because those with the means to circumvent blockades and so on, namely terrorists, need a disproportionate amount.
WestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 7 Reply 133, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1819 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): Actually, I don't agree. Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.
I don't disagree with you...but don't you think that, even subconsciously, we make some decisions in solidarity with the US in knowing that will in some way benefit us?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120): I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...
Forgive me, but I actually find that mildly amusing! This person clearly isn't familiar with your postings here in Non-Av.
Quoting Mir (Reply 124): This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.
I have to mostly disagree, Mir. Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion. At the end of the day, this issue is about Jews and Muslims not being able to play nice, because if they did then they would be able to live in a single state sans conflict.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.
This statement is grossly contradictory. So long as Israel is in conflict with Palestine forming their own independent state, it is entirely Israel's responsibility. It's like blocking someone from entering a building and then complaining when they force their way past you.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 134, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1816 times:
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14331 posts, RR: 26 Reply 135, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1806 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.
Good luck finding an Palestinian that will disagree with that. Give them their own independent state and nobody will need to babysit them.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now.
America has a large Jewish population, many of whom are wealthy and influential, and has plenty of land. Why should we not get the Israelis out of the situation they are in now? We are all white and share our superior western values, so why not bring them all here and let the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs live like savages?
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 133): Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion.
When one group sets up an explicitly Jewish state there is no alternative to it becoming an issue of both.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 137, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve, its not their job to babysit them.
I'd agree, but the Palestinians are not a free state, and many (BUT NOT ALL) problems do result from Israel
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The Arab world has enough money to get them out of the situation they are in now.
What's with the race thing? Do we need to be Arabs to care about the Palestinians? As a white Christian, should I only care about white Christian countries? Please explain. And again, a country can support the Palestinians without wanting millions of refugees flooding their countries
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): Seems that weapons are the primary imports to Gaza however.
This is a legitimate concern, I'll agree. Unlike many here, I do not think weapons will stop flowing if Palestine becomes a completely free state. Most violence (and reason for violence) will die down, but hate will linger for a while, and many won't be satisfied with a 2 state solution (some want all Jews/Israelis out/dead)
TheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 6 Reply 138, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1754 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): Harper has shown much stronger moral support of Israel than Obama has. I think Harper's stance on Israel is based strictly on principle.
Canada would have voted no regardless. The current government has made their position very clear, even before Obama came to office. Canada has a big presence in Israeli affairs, and our current government is quite involved behind the scenes.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): But this highlights a bigger issue: Palestine is splitting into 2 "nations": an increasingly prosperous West Bank (albeit with Israeli settlements) and an isolated, militant and impoverished Gaza. Perhaps the 2 groups should be treated as two separate Palestinian "nations" for future peace discussions.
This is a major snag which the international community can't seem to recognize. Even with the motion tabled and passed, there has been no specifics about who in Palestine is representing the Palestinians. This is likely to become a major stumbling block in future negotiations and with funding, since Iran and co. will put Hamas first. It's also likely China and Russia will throw any political backing on this issue behind their favorite customers.
Quoting Mir (Reply 124): Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.
Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134): and even discriminates against Arab Christians.
Like I said, that is starting to change. It's a slow change, but eventually more and more Palestinian Christians will see the travel restrictions eased up on them.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 139, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1749 times:
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 133): Yes it is a land issue on the surface, but what is the key driver behind the reason for a two-state resolution? Religion. At the end of the day, this issue is about Jews and Muslims not being able to play nice, because if they did then they would be able to live in a single state sans conflict.
I'm not sure that's really religion. We've seen countless times how trying to force people of different cultures (a category that includes religion but is not limited to it) to live in the same country ends up with trouble. Ultimately, both the Israelis and Palestinians want to have their own identities, for legitimate reasons that go far beyond just what religion they practice.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
caliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 140, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1712 times:
...if this is all true, then i can understand why Israelis would be afraid. The hate is just sad. I am trying to see things from both sides here. They need to come together and realize that both Israel and the Palestinians arent going anywhere...
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 141, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1699 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 138): Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.
Even for Hamas it's not primarily a religious issue. They hate Israel because of what Israel has done (move into land that they perceive is theirs), not because Israel is Jewish (though that doesn't help).
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 142, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1706 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134): Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
democracy
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
rule of law
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
human rights
Unless you are an Arab.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122):
freedom of expression and movement
Unless you are an Arab.
Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews. Moreover, Arabs are exempt from military service.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134): Israel is no better at treating Muslims than Saudi Arabia is at treating Christians... and even discriminates against Arab Christians.
Nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights in Israel. Saudi Arabia won't even let Christians practice their religion. The two countries aren't even comparable.
zkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 143, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1677 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 50): And Israel has retaliated, by moving forward with plans for settlement expansion that will significantly cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank.
I'm kind of curious about this. Israeli always claims to be a 'rule of law' kind of place, yet it seems that permission for all these new properties has been approved purely for the sake of saying 'screw you' to the Palestinians, rather than going through the actual planning permission process.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67): I won't deny that it's no coincidence the settlement building commenced right after Palestine got semi-statehood...
Politics, politics, politics... Yet they will keep claiming 'rule of law'. Good luck to any Palestinians trying to get permission from the Israeli govt to build houses near that area.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 69): It is nothing more than sheer provocation, on the side of the Israelis, and nothing else.
We hear Bibi, get up in front of the worlds press, and say time and time again, that Israel wants peace.
Yeah.... well, if this is how he, and his government, go about showing that, then its a load of complete and utter, Bullshit !
Wanting peace with their neighbours and building more settlements on Palestinian land are mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, the kind of peace that Bibi and his supporters want is one where Palestinians are pushed into Jordan or the Mediterranean.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 83): Actually, its wonderful to see the international community rebuff Israels and the US futile attempts to block this historic UN vote. How many countries voted in favor again .... 6 Wow!
Very good to see that Israel's actions (the settlement building in particular) are isolating them politically. I hope this increases. I hope Israel gets a government that actually wants peace, for their own sake, as much as anyone else's.
Quoting Pu (Reply 91): IMO Israel's current militant posture is sustainable only so long as America's position as an unchallenged superpower is in place. When this ends, Israel better have made a permanent peace or Israel ends itself...the clock is ticking.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 95): Their constant argument is that the Palestinians already have a homeland - in Jordan.
It is and that is a typical racist 'whiteman's' argument. Because , the argument boils down to 'if their skin is the same colour, they speak the same language and worship the same god, they must all be the same'. Using that logic, I could construct a fairly decent argument that:
A) Austrians and Germans are one and the same;
B) Americans and non-Quebecer Canadians are one and the same;
C) (Were it not for the separation that the Tasman Sea provides) New Zealanders and Australians are one and the same.
As it happens, the world doesn't work like that.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114): That entire idea is all based on a racist premise: "They're all brown skinned towel heads, they can take care of each other."
You beat me to it.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 119): Anyway, kudos to the Czech Rep for not following the EU's non-leadership on this issue.
Voting for something you don't support (enmasse) and non-leadership aren't the same thing.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120): I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that, despite being over 100 posts in this thread, noone has accused anyone of such things. Lets hope it stays (relatively) civil.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 122): Because they share the same judeo-christian values as other other Western nations, specifically: democracy, rule of law, human rights, mercantilism, freedom of expression and movement, education, literacy, a strong focus on scientific advancement.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 130): The palestinian problem is not Israel's responsibility to solve
And by building yet more settlements on Palestinian land, Israel is doing all it can not to solve it. Unfortunately Israel is going to reap more of what they are sowing, which is actually really sad.
Quoting Mir (Reply 139): We've seen countless times how trying to force people of different cultures (a category that includes religion but is not limited to it) to live in the same country ends up with trouble. Ultimately, both the Israelis and Palestinians want to have their own identities, for legitimate reasons that go far beyond just what religion they practice.
Well said.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142): Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews.
Try telling that to any arab in East Jerusalem trying to get a building permit. Or, alternatively, any arab in the Israeli Occupied West Bank.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 144, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1649 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142): Nonsense. Israeli Arabs have full democratic rights in Israel.
Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.
Before you come back about democracy in KSA, remember we are not going around telling people how great is democracy in our country.
The Palestinians won a member seat In the UN it was all fair and correct, they won the majority of votes there, what was the response of this so called the only democracy in the area? They are building 3000+ settlements on land that does not belong to them and withholding over 115 million USD that belongs to the Palestinians, wow if this is the definition of democracy then i do not want it.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 145, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1638 times:
yyz717, I took the trouble to research the rights that non-Jewish residents DON'T have in Israel, and addressed Post 128 to you, explaining the situation. I take it that you didn't bother even to read it?
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144): wow if this is the definition of democracy then i do not want it.
Agree, SOBH151. About the new settlements in the West Bank, I think that it's finally dawned on me what's happening.
The whole region is absurdly over-populated - and the Israelis are still allowing immediate entry - at the expense of the United States - to anyone of the Jewish faith who asks for it. So they have to go on driving out as many Palestinians as they can, as fast as they can; by taking and demolishing their homes. The same thing that they've been doing since 1948. And the rest of the world - primarily the United States - goes on allowing the Jews to pursue this monstrous injustice.
So the likely outcome, over the next twenty years or so, is that all the remaining Palestinians will have been 'de-housed' and driven out of the West Bank - and 'Palestine' will eventually be represented only by the Gaza Strip (which, by that time, will have a population exceeding 3 million people).
But that won't be the end of the story, because by that time 'Israel' (meaning everything west of the Jordan apart from Gaza) will itself be absurdly over-populated. And it's upkeep will be costing the long-suffering US taxpayer an absolute mint........
I reckon that, eventually, the US public will realise that they are being 'played for suckers' and are financing a crazily-overcrowded place which will never reach the point at which it can become economically viable. And some more enlightened president will force Israel to abandon its present policy of unlimited (and subsidised) inward migration, and also cut US aid. And that, in any case, increasing numbers of 'Jewish Israelis' will realise that they and their kids have no future in the place, and 'vote with their feet' by moving out to countries that can offer them better prospects.
But that turning-point will certainly be many years in the future; and, sadly, by that time there'll be few if any Palestinians left in Palestine......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Quokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 146, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1598 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 145): About the new settlements in the West Bank, I think that it's finally dawned on me what's happening.
I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution. This is the official position of Likud, outlined in the party's charter, and it appears to be confirmed by a report in the Guardian.
Quote: The Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected the UN vote at its weekly meeting on Sunday. It described the West Bank as "disputed territory" over which the Jewish people had "a natural right".
Meanwhile both Britain and France have called in the Israeli Ambassadors to their respective countries to make known their disapproval of the punitive and vindictive actions in approving expanded settlements and the withholding of taxes collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. I suspect that this is mainly for the sake of appearances. There is speculation that there might be a tightening of labelling of produce from the West Bank but at this stage there is no hint of anything but awaiting to "see what the outcome" of the talks is.
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 147, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1584 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 138): Quoting Mir (Reply 124):Not so. This is primarily a land issue, not a religious issue.
Tell that to Hamas and their masters in Iran.
I think its a religious issue now, the holy war element has entered in it. for many non-Arabs.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 138): Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 134):and even discriminates against Arab Christians.
Like I said, that is starting to change. It's a slow change, but eventually more and more Palestinian Christians will see the travel restrictions eased up on them.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 148, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1573 times:
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 146): I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution.
Agree that 'that seems to be the size of it,' Quokkas.
But - literally just in the last few minutes - there appear to be increasing signs that, at long last, the rest of the world is waking up to the situation. Britain, France, and Germany are all roundly condemning the latest 'settlement plan' (which, apparently, would more or less cut the West Bank off from its supposed capital, East Jerusalem) and even the UN Secretary-General has now waded in to the rising tide of condemnation:-
"Jerusalem: Israel is facing international condemnation over its plans to significantly expand settlement construction in occupied territory in the West Bank, with Britain and France reportedly considering recalling their ambassadors over the decision.
"The UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon expressed "grave concern and disappointment" over Israel's announcement of 3000 new settlement units in East Jerusalem and other parts of the West Bank including an area known as E-1, which could "completely" cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank, he warned.
"Settlements are illegal under international law and, should the E-1 settlement be constructed, it would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution," said Mr Ban, through a spokesman.
"In the interests of peace, any plans for E-1 must be rescinded, he said."
Just maybe - mixing my metaphors to the limit - Israel has finally taken 'a step too far,' and is about to be 'cut down to size' by the international community.
Sincerely hope so, anyway........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
damirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 691 posts, RR: 8 Reply 149, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 146): I have long believed that despite all the "talk" about wanting peace, Israel does not want a Two State Solution. This is the official position of Likud, outlined in the party's charter, and it appears to be confirmed by a report in the Guardian.
I have the same feeling too. Reading the Jerusalem Post online (taking into account that the readers/comments will be strongly biased to one side) just confirms that many ordinary Israelis view the West Bank as their G-d given land and they are not willing to negotiate about it. Impasse reached.
damirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 691 posts, RR: 8 Reply 150, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1573 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 148): But - literally just in the last few minutes - there appear to be increasing signs that, at long last, the rest of the world is waking up to the situation. Britain, France, and Germany are all roundly condemning the latest 'settlement plan' (which, apparently, would more or less cut the West Bank off from its supposed capital, East Jerusalem) and even the UN Secretary-General has now waded in to the rising tide of condemnation:-
Bibi kinda back-pedalled on that... Last I've read he says they're just planning to build in E-1, not necessarily building
So true, a US professor who visited Isreal for some Enviromental vegetation related convention and travelled far and wide in the country dealing with average Israelis was surprised to learn that majority do not want a Palestinina state and have absolutely no liking for Arabs.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 152, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1570 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 61): I would stipulate though that any families who are forced to be uprooted be paid fair market value for their homes
Why, the Israelis never gave fair market value to the land they confiscated from the Palestinians to build these settlements so why should the Palestinians pay fair market value to get them back?
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 153, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1534 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144): Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.
Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely in Israel.
Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you afraid of? Why won't you allow Jewish visitors?
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 154, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1528 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 153): Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you afraid of? Why won't you allow Jewish visitors?
What's this got to do with the topic at hand, stop deflecting.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 155, posted (5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1516 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144): Untrue, Arabs in Israel do not have the right to even add a room in the roof of there houses, they have a different car plate number color so they are not allowed to travel to certain areas, Muslims under the age of 40/50 are not allowed to pray in the AlAqsa mosque, so please no more talk about democratic rights of the Arabs.
Really? Because I've been all over Israel - from the Golan Heights in the north to Eilat in the south - and have seen Israeli Arabs practically everywhere. I only say practically because I don't walk up to people and ask with what people they identify themselves. I've seen Arab buses ALL OVER Jerusalem, Arab businesses in Tel Aviv, Eilat, you name it. All Arabs in Israel have the same rights that every other Israeli citizen has...the exception being the Palestinians. I've even been waited on by an Arab cashier at a McDonald's on Ben Yehuda Street in Jerusalem, one of the city's outdoor pedestrian malls. Arab Israelis do not have to serve in the IDF, but some elect to do so, and they serve right alongside Israelis, and I'm sure there were some Arab Israeli soldiers around Gaza. Those rockets don't discriminate...they'll explode wherever they hit....be it a Jewish or Arab neighborhood, a synagogue or a mosque.
I can't speak for the AlAqsa mosque, as I am not allowed there being Jewish, but from pictures I've seen, Muslims of all ages pray there. While I'm on the topic of AlAqsa...that building is no different from Saudi Arabia. If you aren't Muslim, you can't even set foot on the grounds - which is something I'd honestly like to do because I've seen some beautiful pictures of it.
I would be interested in learning where you get some of your information.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 157): Now, i have no response about those new 3000 settlements and the withholding of the custom money.
I have no comment settlement expansion in the West Bank, that is not my problem nor concern. However I do believe that if Israel took over the West Bank completely, then the people already living there would be better off living under the Israeli government. Considering what a complete gong-show the rest of the middle-east is(Arab spring), the Arabs would actually live better under the Israeli democracy than they would under a dictatorship.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 159, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1474 times:
While I agree that "occupiedpalestine" probably has bias a lot of what they mentioned can be easily proven facts. While there might be "spin" attached to the license plate issue, it is easily proved whether there are indeed different license plates. And is BBC really that biased?
Quoting powerslide (Reply 158): I have no comment settlement expansion in the West Bank, that is not my problem nor concern.
Yet the rest of the conflict is? The settlements are arguably the crux of the issue
Quoting powerslide (Reply 158): However I do believe that if Israel took over the West Bank completely, then the people already living there would be better off living under the Israeli government. Considering what a complete gong-show the rest of the middle-east is(Arab spring), the Arabs would actually live better under the Israeli democracy than they would under a dictatorship.
I agree that Israel is more prosperous and more stable than most surrounding countries... but does that mean they can do no wrong and that we can't call them out when they make mistakes? I'm 100% bias and giving free passes to wrong actions, even if they are coming from an ally. I'm sure even you can't say Israel is right 100% of the time and that there are at least a few things they could do differently. If I'm right about that, welcome to our boat
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 160, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1454 times:
SOBHI51, you might as well be linking to Hamas websites. I know most of the information - especially about highway travel - to be untrue. Even the BBC article...it doesn't say whether it's Palestinian Security or Israeli security, or the security at the mosque that makes travel so difficult. I know from talking to tourists who have seen it that security at the mosque asks visitors questions on the Koran for entry, and if you can't answer, you are turned away at certain times. There is also no date on the slide show, anywhere, so you don't know how recent it is. Maybe it's from this past Ramadan, maybe it's from a few years ago. I can't say with certainty when the slideshow is from, and neither can you.
WestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 7 Reply 161, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1416 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 158): However I do believe that if Israel took over the West Bank completely, then the people already living there would be better off living under the Israeli government. Considering what a complete gong-show the rest of the middle-east is(Arab spring), the Arabs would actually live better under the Israeli democracy than they would under a dictatorship.
Central Africa seems to be a bit of a gong show these days, how about we go send some rockets their way and take it over because we think they'd be better off as Canadians?
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 160): I know from talking to tourists who have seen it that security at the mosque asks visitors questions on the Koran for entry, and if you can't answer, you are turned away at certain times.
I'm not sure why this is an issue? If this is in fact true, I don't like it, but at the end of the day the mosque is private property and they can permit whomever they want onto the premises.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 162, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1419 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 160): I can't say with certainty when the slideshow is from, and neither can you.
Marc
Just follow the news still happening every Friday as we speak.
Look my main objective is to find a solution to this problem, i am over 60 years old and lived all my life with this situation, peace is a must for both sides, but i wonder if one side is really interested in achieving it.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 163, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1378 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142): Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews.
I can assure you they do not.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142): Moreover, Arabs are exempt from military service.
And just why do you think that is?
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 153): Muslims are allowed to practice their religion freely in Israel.
Having one right =/= having all the rights.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 153):
Tell me....why won't the KSA allow Christians to worship in the KSA? What are you afraid of? Why won't you allow Jewish visitors?
Don't be obtuse. This thread is about Palestine and Israel. If you want to start a KSA argument, start a new thread.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes it somewhat clearer now.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 120): I've been called antisemetic by a certain poster on here...
Seems unfortunate, we all know who it was.
And I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but if anyone here voices there disgust at Israels actions, loud and long enough, you get labeled with tags like that.... Makes them look extremely foolish.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 142): Israeli Arabs have all the rights of Jews. Moreover, Arabs are exempt from military service.
You are NOT telling the truth are you ?
Do a quick search on Google and look at pages and pages of links about Israeli discrimination towards Israeli Arabs.
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 166, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1320 times:
Any idea why no sactions are being put on Israel? I mean WTF, what is the world waiting for, they are not even suspending stuff for a whilr, instead are probably increasing dealings with them.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 167, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1294 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 166): Any idea why no sactions are being put on Israel? I mean WTF, what is the world waiting for, they are not even suspending stuff for a whilr, instead are probably increasing dealings with them.
Perhaps worldwide sanctions against Pakistan would be more suitable due to your treatment of your Christian minority.
Israel already lives with sanctions anyway...many Arab nations refuse to trade with it. It just made Israel more self-reliant and stronger.
Anyway, this discussion is much ado about nothing. Israel remains an advanced, modern democracy with enviable quality of life and economic freedom. That won't change. Gaza remains an isolated impoverished backwater with poor human rights (of its own people!) and no economic prospects. That won't change either.
Long live Israel, a valued outpost of Western civilization located in a dark, poor, and undemocratic Middle East.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 168, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1288 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 164):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 156):
What is that supposed to mean??
You had said in a post here or the other thread that most Israelis might be wanting peace with Palestinians, which is not the case.
I stand by that. They might want some conditions unreasonable for the Palestinians, and I'm sure many of them wish the Palestinians weren't there (not in a "kill them all" way either) but I'm confident Israel wants peace. Again, the peace would be the status quo which is unacceptable to the Palestinians.
I really do think this and hope this. I have not really seen hate in my life, as in my group hating another group of people, so I may just be naive to it all
Edit: There are many on here that are convinced that the Palestinians are the ones who do not want peace and want the killing of Israelis. What do you say about that? It is essentially what you are saying, except the sides are flipped. Perhaps neither side is bloodthirsty, and both sides have their flaws, but they both want peace without being taken advantaged of/be put in a less than optimal situation?
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 165): Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 159):
And is BBC really that biased?
Sorry, I never listen to the BBC, are they bad? lol
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 169, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1282 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Israel remains an advanced, modern democracy with enviable quality of life and economic freedom.
So they do no wrong? They have no errors to correct? They are perfect?
If you say no, then you're in the same boat as us--we don't think they're perfect. Won't you join us in trying to correct what they do wrong, even if you disagree with the extent of Israel's errors? If you do not want to call out Israel when they are wrong, why is that?
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Gaza remains an isolated impoverished backwater with poor human rights (of its own people!) and no economic prospects.
Do you think this is all of Gaza's doing?
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): a valued outpost of Western civilization
Why is it "valued?" It's not a trick question, if you think democracy needs to be spread, I'll believe you. I will just wonder if you are the first to support democracy in other parts of the world, even the places westerners "don't care about."
I'm not trying to "trap you" by any questions, do not take this post as hostile. I'm simply trying to understand where you are coming from. I try to understand other opinions I disagree with rather than flat out dismiss them
bueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 537 posts, RR: 0 Reply 170, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1278 times:
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9): 1)It did. Israel gave up land twice for peace gestures.
And took a lot more.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17): Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.
Politically isolated.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 54): You missed the roughly 1000 years before 1947 when it, well, wasn't.
More than that. Jerusalem first fell to the Muslims in the 630's...
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 57): There has been a Jewish presence in the land of Israel for all of that time.
Yeah, a Jewish presence. There's also been an Arab presence - and both Arab presence and leadership have been stronger during that time. There's also been a Jewish presence in Europe. Who cares?
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 171, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1280 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Perhaps worldwide sanctions against Pakistan would be more suitable due to your treatment of your Christian minority.
Yes they are more than welcome but most of the world is not Christian and could not careless, as for some western countries doing that, highly unlikely because they need Pakistan to play their dirty game.
@DeltaMD90, yes you are very naieve and very lucky not to know what its like to hate.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 172, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1234 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 171): @DeltaMD90, yes you are very naieve and very lucky not to know what its like to hate.
Well I'll accept that. But did you catch how you can switch "Israel" and "Palestine" around in the phrase "Israel doesn't want peace and wants the other side to go away," depending on which side you are on? I think (and hope) both the average Israeli and Palestinian citizen wants true peace and equality, even if their governments do things to make the situation worse
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1173 posts, RR: 0 Reply 173, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1211 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 172): I think (and hope) both the average Israeli and Palestinian citizen wants true peace and equality, even if their governments do things to make the situation worse
I'm not going to pretend to speak to the demographics of the popular opinion, but I've seen it floated that Israel's parliamentary structure tends to hand disproportionate power to the extremes, in recent cases the most committed pro-settler types. In a situation such as Israel's, I can believe that; the narrative of Israel's creation tends to focus (rightly or wrongly) on its existence under massive threat and when you think you're threatened you're more likely to make concessions to people you don't like who are on your side, or see extreme solutions as reasonable.
1) Está claro que el voto de Naciones Unidas refleja una realidad: la política de Israel de ocupación y progresiva colonización de los territorios palestinos, y la cruel manera como se gestiona está suscitando cada día mayor irritación.
Trans: "It´s clear that the UN vote reflects a reality: Israel´s policy of occupation and progressive colonization of the palestinian territories, and the cruel way it is manged, is creating more irritation by the day."
2) La UE no va a cambiar, por supuesto, su firme defensa de la existencia del Estado de Israel y de su derecho a la seguridad, pero cada día más, sin mucha publicidad, pero con insistencia, está advirtiendo a Tel Aviv que también existen los derechos de los palestinos y que están siendo reiteradamente violados por israelíes.
Trans: "Of course the EU won´t change it´s firm defense of the existence of The State of Israel and it´s right to security, but everyday, without publicity but insistently, it is warning Tel Aviv that the rights of the Palestinians also exist and they are being repeatedly violated by the Israelis."
3) El último de esos documentos, que quizás sea el responsable de la inesperada abstención de Alemania en la ONU, es el aprobado por el Comité Político y de Seguridad de la UE el pasado 16 de noviembre, en el que se denuncia el incremento de los ataques que realizan los colonos israelíes en territorios palestinos contra población civil y la evidente impunidad con la que actúan. El documento expresa la preocupación del comité por la violencia de los colonos y sus provocaciones contra civiles palestinos y pide al Gobierno israelí que cumpla con las obligaciones que establecen las leyes internacionales y lleve a esos extremistas ante los tribunales. “Los ataques son cada vez más severos y, en algunas áreas, más coordinados”, explica. Además, son mucho más frecuentes: aumentaron un 32% en 2011 respecto a 2010, y afectan a palestinos, mujeres y niños, así como a sus campos agrícolas (10.000 árboles han sido arrancados) y a sus lugares de culto (se han destruido más de diez mezquitas solo este año).
Trans: "The last of these warnings, is a document that may be the reason behind Germany´s unexpected vote at the UN. It was approved by the Political and Security Committee of the EU last November the 16th and it denounces the increase in the attacks by Israeli Land dwellers in the Palestinian Territories against the civilian population and the corresponding impunity in which they operate. This document expresses the preocupation of the Comittee with the violence of the dwellers and their provocations against Palestinian civilians and asks the Israeli Goverment to comply with Interational Law and take these extremists to court. "The attacks are more severe, and in certain areas, more coordinated. They are also more frequent. They went up 32% in 2011 vs 2010 and they affrect Palestinians, women and children, as well as their fields (10,000 up-rooted trees) and their places of worship (more than 10 mosques destroyed in one year)."
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 175, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1205 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 165): This is the entire problem.... settlements, stealing land, displacing 1,000's of people, and you have "no comment" ?
Neatly put, TheCommodore.
I did a bit of research and found a UN report on likely inward migration to Israel over the next 30 years or so (I'll post a link if anyone wants one, but I warn you, it's about 30 pages long!). The UN's 'low range' estimate is a average rate of 18,000 per annum.
Those 18,000 people are going to have to be housed somewhere. And I didn't check the rate of population growth, but one can assume that, on top of the 18,000, there'll be more extra housing required to accommodate that as well. Even though a high proportion of the immigrants are likely to be families, and any population growth will be in families too, that suggests that Israel is going to have to go on building a large number of houses/apartments every year; probably at least 5,000 to accommodate the 18,000 immigrants, and many more to accommodate natural growth.
But the question then arises of where to build them. Israel 'proper' has a relatively small land area, which is already densely populated. In my opinion, in practical terms, there is only one way to meet the ongoing demand for extra housing; to go on forcibly taking land in the West Bank from the Palestinians, year by year, and building more housing for all the extra 'Israelis' on THAT. And that's what Israel has been doing every year for ages.
But the international community (probably soon including the United States) now appears to be increasingly angry about the continued (and systematic) 'dispossession' of the Palestinians - and looks likely to stop not just the latest 3,000 newbuilds in Palestine, but any future ones. So the question arises, what does Israel do from here?
There's only one answer, seems to me. To put strict limits on inward migration - probably restricting it to 'family reunions' only. In other words, suspend the current, 'wide open,' Jewish 'right of return.'
Interesting times ahead, seems to me........
PS - right on cue, the United States just joined in, urging Israel to 'reconsider'........
Hate to pee on your parade, but NOTHING stays the same forever, nothing !
In fact, you could argue, that the world is getting faster and faster, leading to more and more change, more often.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 169): I'm simply trying to understand where you are coming from.
DeltaMD90, I think with comments like this (See below) its obvious where he's coming from
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Long live Israel, a valued outpost of Western civilization located in a dark, poor, and undemocratic Middle East.
Quoting bueb0g (Reply 170): Yeah, the BBC, which is often accused of being too pro - Israel.
Good one !
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 173): I'm not going to pretend to speak to the demographics of the popular opinion, but I've seen it floated that Israel's parliamentary structure tends to hand disproportionate power to the extremes, in recent cases the most committed pro-settler types.
Exactly, That's why there been somewhere around 24 new settlements in the last few years, and as long as it continues, nothing will change unfortunately. Unless the US has the balls to put Israel under some sort of pressure or coercion.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 174): Interesting editorial today in Spain´s El País.
Lets hope something comes out of it, not just empty words and actions.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 174): Letting its citizens behave with total impunity like barbarians towards hapless, innocent civilians.
Yes, well that makes things a bit more understandable doesn't it ?
Its really no wonder then, at that rate, they will need to do some serious building, on land that they haven't yet taken (stolen) I wonder what line Israel will spin, when they do eventually take/steal more land, and if Israels ally (as someone else here earlier implied) take any action for doing so ?
All the while, the Israeli Government continue to thumb their nose at the international community, and just build, build, build.
Now, lets not mention the water these new settlement/homes will need, and where will it come from.....
The Palestinians no doubt.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 175): But the international community (probably soon including the United States) now appears to be increasingly angry about the continued (and systematic) 'dispossession' of the Palestinians - and looks likely to stop not just the latest 3,000 newbuilds in Palestine, but any future ones. So the question arises, what does Israel do from here?
Gosh, I hope you are right there NAV20
Would be courageous of Obama to do that, maybe he wants to be on the "right side of history" after he discovered only 6 countries voted against the UN resolution ?
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 175): Interesting times ahead, seems to me........
You can say that again..
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, RR: 5 Reply 177, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1147 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Israel already lives with sanctions anyway...many Arab nations refuse to trade with it. It just made Israel more self-reliant and stronger.
That's why in Israel, the cost of gas is the equivalent of $8-$10 per gallon, yet in much of the Arab world, it costs MUCH less. I remember a few years ago, I had heard that in Kuwait, it was like $0.25 or less per gallon. I wonder if it will be that cheap here when, according to the media we (US/Canada) will be self sufficient in terms of oil.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 178, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1146 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 177): I had heard that in Kuwait, it was like $0.25 or less per gallon. I wonder if it will be that cheap here when, according to the media we (US/Canada) will be self sufficient in terms of oil.
No. Remember, not only do the oil-rich states gouge everyone else, they often subsidize their own industries.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 179, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1139 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 175): PS - right on cue, the United States just joined in, urging Israel to 'reconsider'........
Wonder what Urge, really means....
$$$$ I'd imagine,and lots of e'mm. Perhaps some more weaponry too, for good measure, just in case those Palestines pull any punches and need putting back in line.
Here is a good article from the NZ herald in which Bibi says...
"Netanyahu, however, showed no signs of bending. His office said Israel would continue to stand up for its interests "even in the face of international pressure, and there will be no change in the decision taken."
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 177): That's why in Israel, the cost of gas is the equivalent of $8-$10 per gallon, yet in much of the Arab world, it costs MUCH less.
Terrible... isn't it !
Those Arabs, how dare they !
And you are going to be paying a lot more soon to, once Bibi tries to boot Iran
[Edited 2012-12-03 21:03:12]
[Edited 2012-12-03 21:04:25]
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 180, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1092 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 179): Quoting NAV20 (Reply 175):
PS - right on cue, the United States just joined in, urging Israel to 'reconsider'........
Wonder what Urge, really means....
$$$$ I'd imagine,and lots of 'em. Perhaps some more weaponry too, for good measure, just in case those Palestines pull any punches and need putting back in line.
Just 'dunno,' myself, TheCommodore. I didn't expect much in the way of change from Palestine being granted 'observer status' - but, given the results of the UN vote, I couldn't have been more wrong. It could very possibly be because the Palestinians may not have a vote, but they'll certainly, from now on, be able to talk to people at the highest diplomatic level, and get their case across. I expect, too, that Israel's recent relentless, murderous, bombing of Gaza gave them plenty to talk about.
As to Obama, he doesn't seem to be a mere 'blind supporter' of Israel - he doesn't even need to be, now that he's won a second term, he can pretty well tell the Jewish Lobby to shut up for a couple of years.
I think the USA could go either way - more money for weapons, or less money to build illegal settlements with.......
I've always very much respected one Israeli newspaper, Haaretz. And one of their correspondents, Nir Hasson, just spelled out the risks that some Israeli pollies are running in continually testing the patience of the most powerful nation in the world - which virtually 'funds' Israel, day by day. And also keeping the USA in 'first place' in terms of being a target for terrorism:-
"According to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Bibi Netanyahu has delivered "the worst possible slap in the face" to President Obama. Olmert was referring, of course, to Netanyahu's announcement that Israel will proceed with a settlement project that, the New York Times reported, "has long been condemned by Washington as effectively dooming any prospect of a two-state solution.
"Olmert may be overstating things, but not by much. Certainly Netanyahu's settlement surprise isn't the show of gratitude Obama had reason to expect after the US voted with Israel against Palestine's bid for nonmember observer status at the UN--a bid so reasonable and innocuous that Israel and the US, in opposing it, were in a minority of 9 out of 147 voting nations. And some of those 9 were on our side only because of American arm twisting. (Olmert himself thought it was a mistake for Israel to oppose the resolution.)
"In a way this was more than a slap at Obama. It was a slap at the United States. Terrorism is one of America's main national security threats, and the hatred of America by some Arabs and Muslims is the most valuable asset terrorist recruiters have. So stoking that hatred by voting to thwart the legitimate aspirations of Palestinians makes America less secure. To put a finer point on it: Stoking that hatred makes our children more likely to die a violent death 5, 10, 15 years from now."
zkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 181, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1020 times:
From the BBC:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 165): They are illegal for use and against the Geneva Convention, but that doesn't seem to worry Israel...So much for the rule of law !
The irony being that Israel is only too happy to then accuse Hamas of violating the Geneva Convention.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 167): Israel already lives with sanctions anyway...many Arab nations refuse to trade with it.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 177): That's why in Israel, the cost of gas is the equivalent of $8-$10 per gallon, yet in much of the Arab world, it costs MUCH less. I remember a few years ago, I had heard that in Kuwait, it was like $0.25 or less per gallon. I wonder if it will be that cheap here when, according to the media we (US/Canada) will be self sufficient in terms of oil.
And the Arab League has stated (both in 2002 and reaffairmed in 2007) that they will fully normalize relations with Israel and end the embargo if Israel withdraws from occupied territories, addresses the arab right of return issue (and the refugee issue) and recognizes an independent Palestine. The ball is in Israel's court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 180): As to Obama, he doesn't seem to be a mere 'blind supporter' of Israel - he doesn't even need to be, now that he's won a second term, he can pretty well tell the Jewish Lobby to shut up for a couple of years.
Sounds like political suicide to me. It would be nice if the Israel Money would at least get discussed in the current fiscal cliff talks. Giving such vast sums of money away with no strings attached makes little sense, particularly during times of fiscal uncertainty.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 182, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1000 times:
Quoting zkojq (Reply 181): Sounds like political suicide to me.
He can only serve two terms anyway, under the Constitution.
However, as far as the rest of the free world is concerned, it looks as if Israel is going to get clean away with everything - including going on grabbing as much additional West Bank land as they like........
"British Foreign Secretary William Hague said on Tuesday that European sanctions against Israel in response to its latest plans to build settlements on disputed land were not an option."
"French President Francois Hollande said Monday he was worried by Israel's plans to build new settlements in east Jerusalem and the West Bank, but indicated Paris was not ready to back concerted punishment in response.
"We do not want to start thinking in terms of sanctions," Hollande said during a Franco-Italian summit in Lyon."
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 184, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 941 times:
Meaning Pakistan, 777way?
Sure, they might be able to do something. But I can't see sanctions from there - or, indeed, anywhere but Europe and the United States - having much effect, they just don't have enough trade with Israel to make any difference? And they certainly don't finance the 'bloody' (please forgive the profanity, mods ) place day to day, the way the United States does?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 185, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 934 times:
Pakistan has trade with Israel ??? I meant Japan, Korea, China, India, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and other such places, the insignificant ones could suspend diplomatic relations, just to show, just imagine if every non-western nation was to recall their ambassadors from there and shut their embassies, also isnt Azerbaijan having issues with some occupied territory with Armenia, howcome such places are such hypocrites.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 186, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 929 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 185): I meant Japan, Korea, China, India, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey and other such places.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, mate - but same problem, the Israeli economy doesn't depend on them? Sure, they can all have a moan at the UN, but that's as far as it goes.
Nothing will 'bring Israel to heel' except European trade sanctions - plus the United States 'stopping the money.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 187, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 924 times:
^ Every little bit counts, the west will never sanction Israel, though I hope they wake up and do, I dont know how was South Africa dealt with by the west in apartheid era?
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 188, posted (5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 920 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 187): I dont know how was South Africa dealt with by the west in apartheid era?
Good question, 777way. In general terms, no-one really 'dealt with' South Africa; in large part, the place finally realised, for itself, that the economy 'wasn't working' - and they ('all sides,' you could say) decided to end the discriminatory policy..........
International sanctions certainly played a part in pushing them towards that solution, though. But, as I've indicated above, as of today, there appears to be no prospect at all of sanctions being raised against Israel. Nor can the United Nations do anything; any proposed action by the UN would require the approval of the five-member Security Council.
Which includes the United States, Britain, and France.........
[Edited 2012-12-04 08:25:14]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 190, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 864 times:
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 179): "Netanyahu, however, showed no signs of bending. His office said Israel would continue to stand up for its interests "even in the face of international pressure, and there will be no change in the decision taken."
Good.
Quoting 777way (Reply 166): Any idea why no sactions are being put on Israel?
Any idea why Pakistan, being the peace loving country they are, harbour terrorists? IMO, Pakistan is no better than Iran.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 161): Central Africa seems to be a bit of a gong show these days, how about we go send some rockets their way and take it over because we think they'd be better off as Canadians?
Central Africa doesn't need our weapons, they are good at killing each other without them. Best thing we can do for Africa is build a wall around it, drop in weapons and stay the hell away.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 181): Sounds like political suicide to me. It would be nice if the Israel Money would at least get discussed in the current fiscal cliff talks. Giving such vast sums of money away with no strings attached makes little sense, particularly during times of fiscal uncertainty.
Might as well cut the aid to Arab nations as well. Egypt in particular who seems to leach the most money.
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 191, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 856 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 190):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 161):Central Africa seems to be a bit of a gong show these days, how about we go send some rockets their way and take it over because we think they'd be better off as Canadians?
Central Africa doesn't need our weapons, they are good at killing each other without them. Best thing we can do for Africa is build a wall around it, drop in weapons and stay the hell away.
Your reply to this sarcastic joke post is enough to show where you are coming from.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, RR: 17 Reply 193, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 806 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 190): Central Africa doesn't need our weapons, they are good at killing each other without them. Best thing we can do for Africa is build a wall around it, drop in weapons and stay the hell away.
Of course the weapons will be dropped after they pay for it, i don't see them giving it away, and then stay away and look so innocent.
BTW i have a personal question, are you in construction business? With the walls in Gaza, west bank and now in Africa, there must be a good profit somewhere there.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 194, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 786 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 180): "In a way this was more than a slap at Obama. It was a slap at the United States. Terrorism is one of America's main national security threats, and the hatred of America by some Arabs and Muslims is the most valuable asset terrorist recruiters have. So stoking that hatred by voting to thwart the legitimate aspirations of Palestinians makes America less secure. To put a finer point on it: Stoking that hatred makes our children more likely to die a violent death 5, 10, 15 years from now."
Its so bloody obvious, yet we (the west) keep flogging the dead horse to death, over and over.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 181): The irony being that Israel is only too happy to then accuse Hamas of violating the Geneva Convention.
Whats that saying again... don't throw stones in glass houses !
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 186): Nothing will 'bring Israel to heel' except European trade sanctions - plus the United States 'stopping the money.'
It reckon it will happen eventually NAV, sooner to, rather than later.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 188): Good question, 777way. In general terms, no-one really 'dealt with' South Africa; in large part, the place finally realised, for itself, that the economy 'wasn't working' - and they ('all sides,' you could say) decided to end the discriminatory policy..........
And Nelson Mandela, was released from Prison. That was a big part.
powerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, RR: 1 Reply 195, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 763 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 193): Of course the weapons will be dropped after they pay for it, i don't see them giving it away, and then stay away and look so innocent.
Blood diamonds!
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 193): BTW i have a personal question, are you in construction business? With the walls in Gaza, west bank and now in Africa, there must be a good profit somewhere there.
Quite the opposite actually, I'm more in the demolition side of things
damirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 691 posts, RR: 8 Reply 196, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 755 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 195): The clock in your room sure. Things are a little different in the real world outside your bias circle.
Well, Powerslide. I am sorry to say, but I do increasingly believe that Israel will not survive the next 50 years. And it will not be destroyed from the outside, it will be destroyed from within. The way Israeli leadership is acting recently that clock counting down just accelerated a lot. And no, I'm not happy about that prospect.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 197, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 739 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 195): Things are a little different in the real world outside your bias circle.
Biased circle? All I see is rationality and objectiveness coming from most posters here. You keep talking about wiping populations out and REFUSE to acknowledge Israel doing ANY wrong. How is that for biasness?
I've directly asked you many questions, only to be ignored. I know it's hard to reply to everyone here, but I've calmly asked you so many questions I can't help but think you're just ignoring them.
Which sounds more biased: Israel has been going about this situation wrong, though they have the right to exist and Palestine makes mistakes also
or
Israel in no way caused any of this problem, the Palestinians and other Arab countries are full of savages, let's see them be wiped out
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9082 posts, RR: 37 Reply 198, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 730 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 175): Those 18,000 people are going to have to be housed somewhere. And I didn't check the rate of population growth, but one can assume that, on top of the 18,000, there'll be more extra housing required to accommodate that as well.
Don't think I've ever quoted myself on here before! But I have a good reason - I made a mistake in that post! According to this Jerusalem Post article, the population of Israel is not growing, year by year, as I assumed; it's staying about level, with outward emigration pretty well balancing, or even slightly exceeding, inward migration.
"For some time now, a number of pundits have been advancing the following argument: Faced with the seemingly intractable Israeli-Palestinian conflict and stuck with consecutive governments unwilling to reach an equitable agreement with the Palestinian leadership, highly educated and moderate-minded Israelis have been leaving Israel in droves. This trend has been boosted in recent years, it is claimed, by the added factor of Iran’s menacing push to achieve nuclear capability. Those remaining in Israel are increasingly ethno-nationalists such as religious Zionists, Russians, traditional-minded Sephardim and Ethiopians.
"Stephen Walt, the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University, argued in April of last year on Foreign Policy’s website, for instance, that [Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu “ought to be... concerned by signs that the Zionist ideal is losing its hold within Israel itself.”
"For proof of this claim, Walt noted that “there are reportedly between 700,000 and one million Israeli citizens now living abroad, and emigration has outpaced immigration since 2007.” According to Walt, the conflict with the Palestinians in eminently solvable, but “because Netanyahu has long opposed the creation of a viable Palestinian state and instead wants to extend Israel’s control of the West Bank, he has to lay out a set of demands that will endlessly delay the process and make it hard for Obama to put meaningful pressure on him.”
So I was plain wrong in assuming, in my post, that Israel has a pressing need to drive more and more Palestinians out of their homeland because it needs more land to accommodate all the migrants who are pouring in. There appears to be at least a balance between migrants coming in, and emigrants leaving.
This new information appears strongly to suggest that the treatment being dished out to the West Bank Palestinians is based not on economic necessity, as I thought earlier; but on straight racial/religious prejudice on the part of the Israelis?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 199, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 718 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 198): This new information appears strongly to suggest that the treatment being dished out to the West Bank Palestinians is based not on economic necessity, as I thought earlier; but on straight racial/religious prejudice on the part of the Israelis?
Lets be frank about something, Israel can build the new houses it may need in so many places that are within the borders widely accepted by the international community. Building in occupied land and in strategic areas serves just one purpose, making a Palestinian state less viable day by day.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 200, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 710 times:
Quoting powerslide (Reply 195): Things are a little different in the real world outside your bias circle.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 198): I made a mistake in that post!
Don't worry to much about it NAV20. When it comes to the ME, there are so many facts and figures, its easy to things mixed up now and then.
I saw a quote somewhere today regarding the announcement of new homes and settlements.
William Hague Brittan's Foreign Minister was quoted as saying that he felt, it the homes are build, it will basically end any hops of a Palestinian state
Could this be the Modus Operandi Israel is working on ?
Quoting lewis (Reply 199): Lets be frank about something, Israel can build the new houses it may need in so many places that are within the borders widely accepted by the international community. Building in occupied land and in strategic areas serves just one purpose, making a Palestinian state less viable day by day.
That backs up my feeling after reading Hague's take on things.
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, RR: 4 Reply 201, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 710 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 199): Building in occupied land and in strategic areas serves just one purpose, making a Palestinian state less viable day by day.
They cant for long, eventually they will have to pasy the price for it, its so obvious to the world now whats happening, doubt it will be yolerated for long, as the saying goes in my part of the world "a theif can have a hundred days of stealing, but one day the law will catch up with him".
jetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2021 posts, RR: 1 Reply 202, posted (5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 710 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
This thread has gone off topic and will be locked to all future posts.
Blue
Professor Foltz: You push down on that yolk, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yolk, the houses get bigger.
Sponsor Message: 
From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1408 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 98 posts, 
From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3447 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 453 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 642 posts, 
From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4844 posts, 
From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 482 posts, 
From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4965 posts, 
From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 541 posts, 
Honestly though maybe this is more libertarian coming out of me but In my opinion we should never aide palestine in the first place because of their illegitimacy as a nation...but now the world recognizes them. We are now seen as the bad guys for not recognizing them. But that also doesn't mean we are responsible for feeding them 
From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, 
From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10243 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 778 posts, 
From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5188 posts, 
From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3009 posts, 
From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2043 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5286 posts, 
From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 319 posts, 
From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3228 posts, 
Unfortunately Israel is going to reap more of what they are sowing, which is actually really sad.
Try telling that to any arab in East Jerusalem trying to get a building permit. Or, alternatively, any arab in the Israeli Occupied West Bank.
- Israel has finally taken 'a step too far,' and is about to be 'cut down to size' by the international community. 
From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 691 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 537 posts, 
Printer friendly format