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Israeli Settlements In The West Bank  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6958 times:

I hope this thread stays 'on topic'!

We'd just established (to the satisfaction of most of us) that Israel doesn't need more space to accommodate its own population - which isn't growing significantly - but instead appears to want to establish more and more settlements in the West Bank with a view to cutting the Palestinians off from Jerusalem, and very probably driving them out altogether in the end......

[Edited 2012-12-04 18:44:15]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
196 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2862 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

The latest from Europe regarding Israels announcement.

Despite some initial sabre rattling at an EU meeting of foreign Mimisters, Israel wont walk away with a bloody nose, this time ?

"But the EU's leverage with the Israelis is limited and its aid to the Palestinians far outweighed by Washington's economic and military support for Israel."

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-considers-r...ment-building-plans-222517703.html



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6939 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Israeli Settlements In The West Bank 

...are not helping Israel in the long run. That should be obvious to anyone with a brain, but sadly the current Israeli government appears to be devoid of such people.

They are also the biggest indication that Israel is not interested in peace with the Palestinians, which the rest of the world should view accordingly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6919 times:

"At a meeting in Brussels, ambassadors responsible for security issues discussed the possibility of all 27 EU states writing to Tel Aviv to express their displeasure or calling in Israeli ambassadors for consultations, as five EU countries have already done.

"No formal decisions were taken during the meeting and the issue will be discussed further on Friday, EU diplomats told Reuters. But it remains possible that language censoring Israel could be included in a statement to be issued by EU foreign ministers after a meeting on December 10 in Brussels, they said.

"We have agreed on a recommendation so it is not obligatory," one EU diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity."


It's quite incredible to me that the Europe guys appear to need at least another week to agree on a 'statement' that, on past experience, is only going to say nothing in particular anyway........

What do others think causes this oddly-submissive approach to anything to do with Israel? My own view is that it's a sort of habitual 'Holocaust cringe'.........

If so, that's a very odd attitude. Sadly, most of the people sent to concentration camps died in them before the war's end - and anyone who survived would be well over seventy now, even if they'd been very small children during the war. Literally 99%-plus of the people now living in Israel aren't likely ever to have had the slightest connection with the Holocaust.......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6905 times:
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It's just all too sad. I have grown so weary of both sides just doing stupid things in the same vicious cycle of humility, that I just don't believe any positive outcome is achievable here. I used to hope against hope that one day someone would see the light and truly break the cycle of doom, but I just can't even imagine what that would be now.

All the 'statements' in the world and all the diplomats being summoned you can think of won't change a thing so long as people aren't prepared to view their neighbours as fully equal human beings in that neck of the woods. I guess all one can do is pray....



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

I get the impression Israel is trying to encircle Jerusalem with Jewish settlements make Arab/Muslim access more difficult.

At any rate, if Israel had not been unilaterally attacked in 1967, then perhaps Israel would not have fought back and won that war, and along with it, some land to occupy.

The new settlements are a reminder to the Arab world that trying to invade Israel may result in lost land that Israel will "own" and settle. A lesson that has been in place in many conflicts for hundreds of years.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6889 times:

A case of 'a picture speaking louder than words'..........

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/12...-forces-demolish-west-bank-mosque/

"Israeli forces have demolished a mosque in the occupied West Bank village of al-Mufaqara, south of al-Khalil (Hebron), for the second time in two years.

"Witnesses say Israeli forces backed by bulldozers and heavy machinery attacked the village at dawn and forcibly evicted all who were inside the mosque preparing to perform morning prayers.

"Israeli forces did not even allow the locals to remove books and other objects from inside the mosque before demolishing it.

"Israel Radio said the mosque was built without a license. But al-Mafqara residents say such demolitions are part of a larger Israeli plan to expand Jewish settlements on occupied Palestinian territories.

"Al-Khalil's governor Kamel Hmaid condemned the demolition of the mosque as a "collective punishment."



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5):
The new settlements are a reminder to the Arab world that trying to invade Israel may result in lost land that Israel will "own" and settle. A lesson that has been in place in many conflicts for hundreds of years.

True that with victory lies the spoils, but do you realize how much Israel could improve relations and get closer to long-sought after peace if they took a different stance?

The way both sides act at times leads many, including me, to conclude the only way there will be peace is with the extermination of one side. But with concessions from both sides and a deeper understanding, I can see peace. Easy for me to say, being half the world away, but no one said this peace would be easy...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
True that with victory lies the spoils, but do you realize how much Israel could improve relations and get closer to long-sought after peace if they took a different stance?

Do you realize how much Gaza and Hesbollah could improve relations and get closer to long-sought peace if they would stop unilaterally attacking Israel every few years? Unless.....they don't want peace (which we all know to be true).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
But with concessions from both sides and a deeper understanding, I can see peace.

Israel has conceded. time and time again. They voluntarily closed their settlements in the Gaza, thinking this would lead to peace. But no.....the Gazans became more violent.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6858 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
True that with victory lies the spoils,

Unless the winner is Jewish and the loser is Arab.

Quote:
but do you realize how much Israel could improve relations and get closer to long-sought after peace if they took a different stance?

Possibly, but there is no guarantee. Israel gave back Gaza and looked what happened, they were rewarded with rocket attacks and terrorism. Why should they give back more land? Arabs deserve nothing from Israel, history has proved this. I believe its at a point now where Israel will not stop the expansion until all the land is theirs in the West Bank. Then there will be nothing to give back because of Arab greed in previous wars. I don't agree with the expansion but I understand the reasons behind why its happening and why it must happen. Israel must not give into Arab pressure, they'll give them an inch and the Arabs will want a mile.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6858 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
The way both sides act at times leads many, including me, to conclude the only way there will be peace is with the extermination of one side. But with concessions from both sides and a deeper understanding, I can see peace.

What more does the West Bank need to do in order to convince you of their good intentions?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1361 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6820 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 5):
The new settlements are a reminder to the Arab world that trying to invade Israel may result in lost land that Israel will "own" and settle. A lesson that has been in place in many conflicts for hundreds of years.

Not always. They did give back the Sinai.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6798 times:

IMO, for the Israeli (Labour) governments during the 1967 and 1973 wars the occupied land was something to be used as leverage and bargaining chips during peace talks with the Arabs. The fullscale settlemen t policy came later under Begin´s Likud government.

In fact what the Israelis are doing with their settlements is the oldest form of colonialisation:
The Romans gave land in conquered territories to army veterans, who left the legions after 20 years of service and called this "Colonia". E.g. the name of the German city of Cologne (Köln) derives from the original Latin name "Colonia Aggrippina".
The Czarist Russians settled warrior-farmers in conquered territories, the Cossacks.
The aim in both cases was to change the demoscopy through settlements of loyal subjects and to have an armed class of loyal subjects there to quell any trouble. I´m quite sure that the Israeli settlers see themselves as warrior-farmers as well.
The big difference between the Israeli settlers and the Roman veterans and the Russian Cossacks mixed with the local population, engaging in mixed marrieages, ultimately deriving in a mixed society (e.g. the Roman-British society of appr. 500 A.D.).

Jan


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6783 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
They voluntarily closed their settlements in the Gaza, thinking this would lead to peace. But no.....the Gazans became more violent.
Quoting powerslide (Reply 9):
Israel gave back Gaza and looked what happened, they were rewarded with rocket attacks and terrorism.

This thread is about the West Bank, not Gaza.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 9):
I believe its at a point now where Israel will not stop the expansion until all the land is theirs in the West Bank.

If that really is their strategy, then the US should cease supplying them with military equipment. I have no problem helping Israel defend itself, but if they're going to be a country that aggressively annexes territory then they can do that on their own.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6779 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):

The most hideous answer is always coming from Germany. Mrs. Merkel supports Israel no matter what. And I thought we were over the Holocaust tragedy and we could move on...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
IMO, for the Israeli (Labour) governments during the 1967 and 1973 wars the occupied land was something to be used as leverage and bargaining chips during peace talks with the Arabs. The fullscale settlemen t policy came later under Begin´s Likud government.

  

Sadly, Israel took the wrong road then. The settlement activity we are discussing now began in the 1970ies.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
Israel has conceded. time and time again. They voluntarily closed their settlements in the Gaza, thinking this would lead to peace. But no.....the Gazans became more violent.

No, the main reason for removing Gaza settlements was that they were too difficult to defend, and now they are counting on a wall surrounding Gaza and the "Iron Dome" projectile defense project. Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions of the world.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6741 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 14):
Mrs. Merkel supports Israel no matter what. And I thought we were over the Holocaust tragedy and we could move on...

Many thanks, flyingturtle - you've 'squared the circle.' Of course - my background is English/Australian; we were the 'good guys' in WW2. Britain 'saved' Europe in 1940, and, together with the Commonwealth, played a big part in beating the Nazis. And I'm old enough to have met German prisoners as a small kid (we had a prison camp in the village) and I KNOW that they were ordinary guys, 'good Joes,' not fanatical mass-murderers......... So I tend to think of the Holocaust as something that was organised by the German 'lunatic fringe,' the SS and the Gestapo and other 'super-committed' Nazi organisations - not by the ordinary people or even the ordinary soldiers.....

By contrast, Merkel wasn't born until 1954. So her knowledge of 1939/45 can only have been purely theoretical. My guess is that she'll have learned about it mainly from history teachers (in what was then East Germany, that's where she was brought up), and they'll have given her (and other Germans of her age) a very burdensome 'guilt complex' about the Holocaust; and implied that ALL Germans, and their descendants, bore, and still bear, the responsibility for it.

I suppose all this 'cuts both ways,' too. I remember a couple of Jewish fellow students who, like me, would only have been about six years old when WW2 ended, talking about the world (particularly the UN) 'compensating' the Jews for the Holocaust. And there was no doubt at all - I asked, I've never been noted for 'calling a spade an agricultural implement'   - that they felt that they themselves should be compensated - even though they'd never left England up to that time (1958).........

Anyway - that looks to be the problem. The most powerful politician in mainland Europe, and many Jews (particularly those living in Israel), think that Europe, particularly Germany, still owes the Jews in general a debt that can never be repaid. But the Jews - particularly the Israeli ones - aren't averse to Europe at least trying to pay up....... and poor Frau Merkel apparently feels genuinely guilty too.......

Can't think of a solution to the problem, offhand.   I'll give it some more thought and get back to you.....  

[Edited 2012-12-05 05:22:27]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):

In Germany, pupils get shoved tons and tons of WW2 history down their throats. It's nauseating, while we Swiss take a much different stance (in high school, we learn about the recession after WW1, the economic crisis, Hitler's rise to power, about the concentration camps, and the role of Switzerland in that war... there's not much told about the cruelties). We tend to underestimate the sufferings during WW2, while the German students get it explained to the least and smallest detail.

And yes, GDR school education also plays a role.

When the UN general assembly voted for a improved status of Palestine, what did Mrs. Merkel say? That Israel has the right to defend itself. No reflection whatsoever about what actually goes wrong in Israel. Israel already gets lots and lots of support from the U.S., so it really doesn't hurt if some other economic powerhouse (like Germany) choses a different role.

Supporting somebody also means stopping somebody when he's doing something... wrong.

As a side note, I really recommend the documentary film "Defamation" (Wikipedia article). It should be available on youtube.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6696 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
They are also the biggest indication that Israel is not interested in peace with the Palestinians, which the rest of the world should view accordingly.

Agreed, given the current government. Palestinians are relativelt well educated and have limited economic options. Ergo, a labour pool for Israeli business concerns.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
What do others think causes this oddly-submissive approach to anything to do with Israel? My own view is that it's a sort of habitual 'Holocaust cringe'.........

Also tend to agree. FWIW, I believe Baroque, now gone a year, would have agreed as well.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6681 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
a very burdensome 'guilt complex' about the Holocaust; and implied that ALL Germans, and their descendants, bore, and still bear, the responsibility for it.

The "education" given to Germans in the former GDR was not a general "we are all guilty and have a terrible burden" to make amends for. The official position was that the antisemitism that led to the holocaust was the product of fascism, itself a product of capitalism. In contrast, in the East, the workers and peasants state had vanquished fascism, blah, blah. So there wasn't the same "coming to terms" with the past.

Mrs Merkel is a pragmatist and will not be supporting Israel out of any sense of guilt, however perverse. While she repeated the usual line about supporting Israel's right to defend itself, Germany abstained at the UN, a move that would have been inconceivable before. And while Mrs Merkel has not voiced any condemnation of the latest settlement announcement, others in her party have been more outspoken. Ruprecht Polenz, a member of Merkel's Christian Democrats and head of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Bundestag lower house said, "E1 is not just another settlement. E1 is of enormous strategic importance. E1 ... would cut off East Jerusalem once and for all from the West Bank, thereby making a two-state solution practically impossible."

Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, issued a strong warning on Monday over the settlement plan, saying, "The Israeli government is sending out a negative message with this move. It is eroding trust in its willingness to negotiate, and the land for a future Palestinian state is disappearing further."

In the meantime, Israel is a major customer for German weaponry with Germany agreeing to supply a a sixth military submarine with German taxpayers willing to shoulder millions of euros of the cost. And Germany's Federal Security Committee agreed to the export of shoulder-fired anti-tank weapons and bunker-busting weapons to Israel . Merkel will not want to stand in the way of German industry making money, whatever her personal feelings of guilt, or a lack thereof, may be.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3092 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
A case of 'a picture speaking louder than words'..........

What's sad is that if the Palestinians ever demolished a synagogue it would be called terrorism.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
But with concessions from both sides and a deeper understanding, I can see peace.

Israel has conceded. time and time again. They voluntarily closed their settlements in the Gaza, thinking this would lead to peace. But no.....the Gazans became more violent.

You are conveniently forgetting a little civil war that happened which ended up with Hamas driving out Fatah (the moderate wing of Palestinians...the one willing to sit down). You are generalizing.

As an example, if Rick Perry were driven out by Tea Party-ers and Texas ended up in the hands of a Tea Party governor, does it mean that all Texans are Tea Party-ers? And if the Union decided to pressure the Tea Party governor by closing all economic links of Texans and withholding aid, wouldn't Texans resent that from the Union? I sure would.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):
and they'll have given her (and other Germans of her age) a very burdensome 'guilt complex' about the Holocaust; and implied that ALL Germans, and their descendants, bore, and still bear, the responsibility for it.

Eventually a German leader will stand up and say 'Suck it up'. What's done is done and what happened generations ago cannot be blamed on the current one. That's like Spaniards feeling guilty for the extermination of many Native Americans. They have the mark, but we can't hold modern Spaniards accountable for the mistakes others made centuries ago.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2403 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6610 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 18):
Merkel's spokesman, Steffen Seibert, issued a strong warning on Monday over the settlement plan, saying, "The Israeli government is sending out a negative message with this move. It is eroding trust in its willingness to negotiate, and the land for a future Palestinian state is disappearing further."

As always - words but not deeds. And when it comes to Israel and Palestine, words are used on an inflationary scale.

As a small step, Switzerland has taken measures against Soda Club / Soda Stream because it manufactures some of its carbon dioxide cartridges in occupied territories, outside of the 1967 frontiers. Because Switzerland has a customs agreement with Israel, Soda Club has to pay $$$ more in custom fees... 

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7902 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6597 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 8):
Do you realize how much Gaza and Hesbollah could improve relations and get closer to long-sought peace if they would stop unilaterally attacking Israel every few years? Unless.....they don't want peace (which we all know to be true).

And they'd be stuck with the status quo which is what Palestine doesn't want. Yes, I know the more extreme opinions (removing all Jews/Israelis) is obviously unacceptable, but the opposition of statehood (under Israel's conditions,) the occupation, the settlement building, the absence of many rights is exactly why they are rebelling. It's not as simple as "they're fighting because Israel is fighting because Palestine is fighting." I was in the same boat as you a few years ago. I thought that Palestine killing civilians is inexcusable and that Israel is "more right" in the conflict so I supported them, basically, blindly. But I realize now I can support the just actions of a side while condemning their mistakes.

That all being said, the intentional killing of civilians is unacceptable

Quoting powerslide (Reply 9):
Unless the winner is Jewish and the loser is Arab.

What are you talking about? Why is it so wrong to condemn some of Israel's actions? I support their right to exist, and if they ever get invaded, I would hope the world community would help. But you are constantly equating ANY criticism of Israel to, basically, antisemitism and anti-Israel bias.

For the 10th time, do you think Israel's actions are perfect? If not, what is wrong with calling them out? That doesn't make one anti-Jewish or anti-Israel

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
What more does the West Bank need to do in order to convince you of their good intentions?

Not trying to kill civilians. If we are going to call out Israel's actions, we need to do the same for Palestine. I know the rocket attacks were in reaction to Israeli actions (which we rightfully will analyze and criticize if necessary) but let's not pretend Palestine has been a saint in this struggle, they have not



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Not trying to kill civilians. If we are going to call out Israel's actions, we need to do the same for Palestine. I know the rocket attacks were in reaction to Israeli actions (which we rightfully will analyze and criticize if necessary) but let's not pretend Palestine has been a saint in this struggle, they have not

AFAIK, the rocket attacks originate from radical Islamist elements of HAMAS in Gaza and not from the rather moderate FATAH government in the West Bank. Why does Israel punish the West bank government then?

Jan


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21620 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Not trying to kill civilians. If we are going to call out Israel's actions, we need to do the same for Palestine. I know the rocket attacks were in reaction to Israeli actions (which we rightfully will analyze and criticize if necessary) but let's not pretend Palestine has been a saint in this struggle, they have not

   Again, this is about the West Bank, not Gaza. They are not the same place, they are not governed by the same people, and they are not the same in their position toward Israel. You cannot look at them through the same lens.

You can debate who is the aggressor in Gaza. You cannot debate who is the aggressor in the West Bank - it's Israel, end of story. Fatah has been quite reasonable in its position toward Israel for several years now, and its only reward is more of its land being annexed for settlements.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinevictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 514 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6586 times:

It is obvious by now that Israel has no intention of ever pulling out of the West Bank. Settlements are now so extensive that there is really no way to partition what is left. The 2 state solution is dead.

Now what does Israel intend to do with the Arab inhabitants of the West Bank? Should they expell them? Should they give them Israeli citizenship? Should they herd them into little Bantustans like in old South Africa? I see nobody asking these questions. If you have the land what the hell do you do with the inhabitants???


25 DeltaMD90 : I'll admit to being a bit ignorant on which Palestinians cause which attacks, but I'm very certain the ones in the West Bank bombed a lot of buses an
26 lewis : Not necessarily. The people who chose to settle in occupied land (and they were fully aware of that) can either choose to continue living there as ci
27 DeltaMD90 : Geez sorry, can't catch a break from this stupid site. This is what I get from trying to stay neutral and see it from both sides. I'm no ME expert
28 connies4ever : Given the significant difference in birth rate between the two main ethnic groups, in a one-state situation Israel is hurtling towards an apartheid s
29 Mir : They certainly did, and if you had asked me then I would have said that they didn't have much right to complain about settlement expansion. But that'
30 Pu : Germany has committed itself to a perpetual broad support of Israel. Which is admirable. Eastern Europe still very much respects America and especial
31 einsteinboricua : Why is support for Palestinians equal to hostility with Israel? So would I be a terrible father if I do not approve of everything my children do? How
32 Post contains images Mir : Israel needs an intervention on the settlements. Those who come to interventions generally are there to be stern with the person receiving the interv
33 n229nw : Hmmm, the two areas are not really separate, in that a "two-state" solution lumps them inherently together. As long as there is "Zionist" versus "Pal
34 pellegrine : Israel has always gone the colonizers route since the inception of the State.
35 damirc : I had high hopes for Netanyahu's visit to chancellor Merkel, but it seems (at least officially) Germany is not too miffed about it. Disappointed. D.
36 MD11Engineer : The current Israeli government is very fast in using the Nazi card should any German official dare to critizise their politics and expansionalism. Un
37 connies4ever : Not too many years ago the American comedian Bill Cosby toured a significant number of black(-oriented, anyway) prep schools, junior colleges, and hi
38 MD11Engineer : The problem is that our own "Ewiggestrige",the minority of those who are stuck forever in yesterday, on the right will use any justified critizism co
39 damirc : I understand the precariousness of the situation and the problem in expressing any dissenting view if it is expressed by Germany. I still remember ho
40 MD11Engineer : Only if the ideologes get kicked out and sanity prevails on both sides. I wish there were more Israeli-Arab marriages. Family ties could solve a lot
41 Post contains links Quokkas : And this is the sad thing about it. This approach affects citizens of Israel who are critical of the policy of settlements in the West Bank. While Ne
42 connies4ever : Shows you how small-minded that schmuck is. It's not just Israel. It's wherever neo-con ideology and cults of personality have taken hold. Here in Ca
43 NAV20 : All the evidence points to the Israelis being the only people pursuing racist policies, MD11Engineer? In the 'old days' (i.e. before 1948) Palestine
44 Quokkas : Depending on whose figures you accept and depending on the definitions used, there are about 13.5 million Jews of whom about 6 million live in Israel
45 NAV20 : Thought a while before phrasing it that way, Quokkas. But it's a fact. Anyone of the Jewish faith can emigrate to Israel any time they like - 'expens
46 Quokkas : But there is a world of difference between the actions and policies of a State and what individual people may or not choose to do. Not all Jews are Is
47 NAV20 : Of course you're right, as far is it goes, Quokkas - I served in Germany not all that long after WW2, and it was equally clear that not all Germans h
48 Quokkas : First, accept the enhanced status at the UN without recriminations. I would go further and say that there is no real basis for objecting to full memb
49 Post contains links flyingturtle : Quokkas, your posting is a blueprint for peace in the Middle East. It is even more false, because: ...to be a state, you need: - a defined territory -
50 NAV20 : Couldn't agree more. It's abundantly clear that Israel intends eventually to seize and occupy every part of Palestine (literally everything from the
51 777way : Alot of people must be thinking along the lines Palestinians = Arabs = Muslim = easily can be accomodated by Jordan who ruled them earlier, they think
52 Post contains images damirc : Yeh. Don't buy that line of reasoning either ... "the Arabs have 21 countries, why do they need a 22nd" ... well, seems we Slavs also have a bunch of
53 DeltaMD90 : I agree, but the posts you made about how outrageous it was that Arab/Muslim are seeking help from non-Arab/Muslim countries and a Muslim country sho
54 777way : ^ Not getting you, if you mean Palestinians should not be afraid of Jordan and merge with them, then read damirc's reply to my post with the example a
55 DeltaMD90 : I was agreeing with you, just because two groups of people are the same skin color, ethnicity, and share the same religion, doesn't mean we should be
56 ImperialEagle : The term "West Bank" that the media incessantly uses, was never a place known to history, and that for thousands of years, right up to the U.N.'s reso
57 DeltaMD90 : They probably didn't need a name for this area. Germany before WWII was Germany, but afterwards, there was, for the first time in history, an East Ge
58 lewis : I can name you a lot of places that do not carry the historical name and were until recently known with their original historical names. I am not sur
59 777way : DeltaMD90, Its very simple, Islam has said that since you are following this faith now you are borthers and share a bond that goes beyond race, nation
60 signol : In my understanding, at the time of Jesus, given the parable of the Good Samaritan, the assumption was that Jews and Samaritans were enemies. Not qui
61 victrola : The plain truith is that this land has had a majority Arab population for over 1000 years. If Israel wants to keep this land what do you suggest they
62 777way : Thats the third time you have asked, hopefully there will be an answer, but I think its evident they evntually want them to move in with Jordan, shrew
63 Mir : Not exclusively it hasn't. -Mir
64 victrola : I doubt any of them want to face this issue. There are really only 4 alternatives: 1) Give them Israeli citizenship with all the rights that go with
65 Pu : I usually reject the complaint sometimes heard from Americans that the whole world damns them when they DO meddle in countries overseas and also damn
66 Mir : And he's right to uphold the commitment to Israel's security, so long as Israel is committed to being a peaceful democratic country. Unfortunately, c
67 Post contains links NAV20 : On the contrary, ImperialEagle, the term (initially 'Philistine') appears in the very first Book of the Bible, Genesis. The Philistines are believed
68 ImperialEagle : So? Which bastardization of the original text is this one? The Old Testament as re-written by the Greeks and then re-written by the Romans and then r
69 Quokkas : By all means discuss and bring evidence and analysis. This is always welcome. Defend as much as you wish. This is a public forum and everyone is free
70 DeltaMD90 : Kinda like Native Americans, right? Why are we living in the past, by the way? Look at the problems, now You could start by actually responding to our
71 NAV20 : I merely provided evidence that - according to the Old Testament - the Philistines (i.e. Palestinians) established themselves in the land from Gaza t
72 mariner : I have no problem with a theocracy. I don't like it and I wouldn't want to live in one, but if people do that's their business. There are Islamic sta
73 EDKA : I think you know the difference, but in case you dont, let me explain to you. As a jewish person, i know antisemitism when i see it. And i have quite
74 pellegrine : ??? Israeli identity was a product of the mid 20th century, for there was no Israel. Just because a territory of the world was unincorporated and not
75 mariner : There was never any need or, during the Ottoman Empire, any possibility. But there were non-Jewish people native to the land whose families had lived
76 Post contains images Quokkas : Professor Haim Gerber might disagree with that view. He has suggested that nascent Arab nationalism can be traced back to the 17th Century, though he
77 NAV20 : Seconded. I view Israel's attitudes - and behaviour - in exactly the same light as I saw apartheid in South Africa. That eventually ended - let's hop
78 ImperialEagle : The Holocaust was not the cause of Israel's creation. The Jewish people have lived in the land of Israel continuously for over three thousand years,
79 einsteinboricua : It's one thing to recognize a Jewish state (a state whose majority practices Judaism); it's another to recognize the Israeli state (recognize Israeli
80 DeltaMD90 : Such as? Really, I'd like to see these posts, I have been looking for them
81 Mir : I wouldn't accept a Jewish state either - that would be a statement that that land belongs exclusively to the Jewish people, when that's not the case
82 Post contains images mariner : I know that - re-read what I said. Both Sykes-Picot and the Balfour Declaration and the intention that "there" become a Jewish state were before the
83 Post contains links EDKA : you are correct on all of these, my point was jews sought to establish a state as a "nation", the Palestinians never has such aspirations. they never
84 Pu : I hear a lot of moderate Israelis and their supporters say this, which is fine. But what happens to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? Pu
85 ImperialEagle : And in today's Wall Street Journal yet another article about the Palestinian Arabs rallying around the new Hamas terrorist leadership who again refuse
86 damirc : Yup, noticed this also. Fatah should really exercise some caution and not deal with his sort. Erm. You do realize that these people were actually Pal
87 einsteinboricua : The one that could potentially be at its doorsteps. I'm putting a scenario, not an actual event.
88 par13del : Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Ethnic Cleasning not a re-incarnation of all the evils which gave us the Holocaust and this occured in Europe in the
89 Post contains links NAV20 : In 1948, par13del, it was the Palestinians who got 'ethnically cleansed':- "Outside the gate the soldiers stopped us and ordered everyone to throw al
90 par13del : So back to your original point posted below, you seem to think that the Europeans today who are wary of doing ethinc cleansing or re-visiting the hol
91 Post contains links Quokkas : Again, this is a mistaken belief. Did or did not a delegation of Palestinians visit the British Colonial Secretary Lord Passfield in London on the 1s
92 NAV20 : par13del, back in Post 3, I was reporting that after a few days of 'huffing and puffing' about Israel's latest settlement plans, the EU had decided t
93 EDKA : Not sure if these were questions directed to me personally? I don't know Quokkas. It takes strong leaders to make things work, especially in that par
94 Quokkas : No, in general but more specifically to some other posters who hurl accusations in an almost Pavlovian manner and some, in other threads, who have ad
95 NAV20 : Surely his 'hardening' - and that of all other Palestinians - is because Israel's settlement policy (building Israeli homes all over the West Bank on
96 par13del : So the Palestinian people will follow a Western puppet to the negotiation table to decide their future as a nation, that is the quickest way to empow
97 Quokkas : Quite possibly, unless the previous softening of position was purely for tactical purposes. Either way, the official position in the Charters of both
98 par13del : You really think Israel needs the USA and European money and arms to defeat the Palestinians? If they don't what exactly is this leverage that people
99 Quokkas : That doesn't look like disappearing any time soon. In the meantime there is no where near the same amount of money or arms pouring into the West Bank
100 par13del : As mentioned above, the west can only force Israel to pull out unilaterally, they cannot force the Palesitinians to accept any deals.
101 ImperialEagle : And so, it all boils down to a famous old quote; "When the Arabs put down their guns there will be peace in the Middle East. When the Jews put down th
102 777way : ^ You know very well Israel is here to stay and if an established Palestinian state creates issues for it, they have the whole international community
103 par13del : There are persons in Cambodia, the former Yugoslavia, Africa and other places who have had all manner of things done to them that are abhorrent to th
104 DeltaMD90 : And when my aunt grows balls, she'll be my uncle You know, there are more than 2 options for the Middle East. If the "Arabs" put down their guns, the
105 Post contains links DeltaMD90 : What does everyone have to say about this: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...hamas-speech-idUSBRE8B708L20121208 "Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, mak
106 connies4ever : Playing to a huge emotional tidal wave. He's been the "absent hero" for so long. He comes back, he has to say something to show he's the strong one.
107 Pu : It looks to me then it is incumbent on "the Jews" to figure out how to get "the Arabs" to put down their guns, since "the Arabs" getting "the Jews" t
108 par13del : I put both quotes together because in my mind they are the same. If we take the first one on settlements, why would we believe that they would be exe
109 777way : Maybe there should be an East Palestine established by Fatah in West Bank and disown Hamas, with East Jeusalem attached no issues involed, Gaza cut of
110 DeltaMD90 : That is actually a pretty good idea, I think. Is it important that Gaza and the West Bank are one country? Has there been any talk of the more peacef
111 Mir : Except that Israel's actions in the West Bank are sending the message that when the Palestinians put down their guns their land will still be taken f
112 NAV20 : DeltaMD90, of course it's 'important.' The two places have been 'one country' since before the time of Christ; most people in Gaza have family links
113 777way : But its not being suggested Gaza go its own way, it will continue to remain an occupied Palestinian territoy that needs to be freed, forget east Pales
114 ImperialEagle : Wow. I'm not used to you of all people grasping for straws, as it were. Now, the twenty-something year old would not have surprised me. You remember
115 mariner : And I remember that Mr. Netanyahu is and has been for many years, a strong advocate of what he calls "the Jordanian Option" by which all the Palestin
116 ImperialEagle : Well, it would send a lot of the old ones back where they came from----including the terrorists------bound to thrill the current King as well as they
117 mariner : I have no idea what you mean by "old ones" - to my knowledge no huge numbers of Jordanians have moved to the West Bank and Gaza (why would anyone wan
118 Mir : And why should that be held against the Palestinians? -Mir
119 DeltaMD90 : Again with this racist line of thinking, just because the Palestinians are Arab Muslims means it's the duty of the Arab Muslims to bail them out? And
120 Post contains images connies4ever : I've long thought that Israel has turned Gaza into the world's largest open air prison. Netanyahu is not the solution. He is the problem. Unfortunate
121 Post contains links NAV20 : Good point, mariner. For younger A.netters who may not have encountered the term ('living-space' in English), it was much used by Adolf Hitler - in t
122 powerslide : Considering all the Hamas riff raff running around its a perfect place for Israel to contain her most aggressive enemies. Israel has the power for th
123 NAV20 : At the last count, powerslide, the population of the Gaza Strip amounts to 1.72M. people. All crammed into an area of 140 square miles, a population
124 Post contains images powerslide : So? The rest of the Arab world is fairly vast..... Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.
125 DeltaMD90 : So that's a no? So there are innocent Palestinians caught in all this and not all of them are savages?
126 777way : For those using the anti-semite card, ARABS are SEMITE too as pointed out go GOOGLE it, The Aarabic name Sami comes from semite,It is said to be the n
127 EDKA : So here we have it again, when someone posts something anti-semitic nothing is being done, when someone else point that out, the posts are being delet
128 DeltaMD90 : What "antisemitic posts?" I sent you a PM like you said but you still haven't shown us these alleged antisemitic posts. I don't want to sound insulti
129 EDKA : I just saw your PM, which, i must admit i didn't know i received. i will respond to you privately yes i do i think i have made myself very clear - i
130 NAV20 : Exactly so, DeltaMD90. I was calling attention to the fact that, besides persecuting the Palestinians, the State of Israel systematically discriminat
131 DeltaMD90 : This is very easily solved--what did you mean, NAV20? I do agree this thread is getting very extreme. I've given my 2c against the difference between
132 NAV20 : My post above crossed with yours, DeltaMD90. Trouble is, the 'average Israelis' aren't running the place. I think it comes down to future intentions.
133 777way : I have seen worse racsim towards blacks and muslims even hindus in one topic here and not a single post was deleted from those topics,, the racism wa
134 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like I owe the EU (European Union) an apology. They've just issued a statement saying exactly the right things:- "The European Union (EU) called
135 Post contains images Powerslide : More finger pointing and complaining. Maybe the EU will send Israel a letter.
136 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Yes NAV20 Who would have thought ? And I think think the 3000 new homes are directly related to this outburst. And this today from the SMH..... "West
137 Post contains links NAV20 : Fascinating article - quite the best I've seen recently, TheCommodore. Livni's comments are especially interesting. Looks as if there's an 'opinion sp
138 Post contains links TheCommodore : Bring it on, and lets hope it continues. The more people who point towards Israel and call out her actions, the better ! And they are beginning to, g
139 Post contains links MD11Engineer : Even Israel´s president Peres is getting fed up of the continous historical references to justify the expansionist politics: From an interview with t
140 flyingturtle : Sadly, the "peace process" had mainly one result - the exclusion of Palestinians from the Israeli society and economy. After erecting all these checkp
141 NAV20 : Share your concerns, flyingturtle. Causes me to remember my physics lessons, all those years ago; specifically, Sir Isaac Newton's 'Third Law' - that
142 flyingturtle : Or the constant belief of being the "chosen people". As soon as you think you're something special, you're keenly watching out for how other people a
143 Revelation : Interesting. Here we have an Israeli politician saying let's draw the line at today, whereas many Palestinian politicians careers if not lives depend
144 Post contains links NAV20 : Sorry, Revelation, can't agree. The Palestinians were (and remain) ready to settle for the borders that were agreed in 1967. It is the Israelis who k
145 777way : Quite a few years abck BBC had shown a clip on a meet up arranged between Palestinain and Israeli teens, the differences of their body languages were
146 Post contains links Quokkas : Just as well 777way, there have been a number of studies suggesting a "guilt" felt by survivors and their descendants - "why did I survive and not th
147 MD11Engineer : If you read the full interview he is statinmg that he is in favour of unconditional negotiations, something Netanyahu refuses categorically. IMO, thi
148 777way : You maybe right who knows, maybe they dont want to air their views in public. BTW israel has started duing live war updates on social media with pics
149 Post contains links Quokkas : Well no person will ever deliberately publish on their own web site self-incriminatory information. I am prepared to believe that the views expressed
150 777way : Does reuters have local Israeli reporters or foreigners?
151 Quokkas : One could make an assumption that the cameramen were treated in the way that was reported because they were not immediately recognisable as Israeli o
152 Post contains links TheCommodore : Looks like he's fallen on his sword.... Or someone pushed him on to it ? Too bad for him. http://www.smh.com.au/world/deputy-p...re-israel-poll-20121
153 Post contains links Revelation : I presume you make this statement based on: Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization Because up to that point it seemed th
154 NAV20 : Oddly enough, Quokkas, as far as anyone knows, the origin of that problem (which I acknowledge has at times been very real) had its roots in mediaeva
155 MD11Engineer : Most Germans back then wouldn´t have any contact with the few wealthy Jews. The Jews they knew were mostly not better of than themselves (e.g. my gr
156 Revelation : As my friend says, "Jesus saves, Moses invests!"... If only there was a clear way forward...
157 Powerslide : Should be a lesson for future generations - don't start wars you can't finish.
158 mariner : You're right that Jews were often - not always - better educated, but the reasons for that come from history, too. Rabbinical study gave them teacher
159 777way : Acutally a full scale civil war might be the solution to all the problems that peace is not solving, it seemed to work in Yugoslavia., more so when f
160 zrs70 : Nav, Have you ever visited a concentration camp? Have you visited the West Bank? Have you visited Gaza? I'd really like to know about the similaritie
161 Post contains links NAV20 : Hi, zrs70, answers are 'Yes' (Dachau), 'No,' and 'No.' The whole border between Israel and Gaza is fenced, and guarded by the Israeli Army. Anyone who
162 Quokkas : The term "concentration camp" is emotionally charged and is often associated with Auschwitz and other death camps. Yet the term was introduced by the
163 DeltaMD90 : I just avoid the word all together... it is an emotionally charged word (as Quokkas said) and it just turns off the opposition and makes them defensi
164 Post contains links damirc : And another 1.500 housing units approved in East Jerusalem... (from what I gather with another 5.000 soon to follow). http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAn
165 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Ethnic cleansing comes to mind. Israel, it appears, has adopted a slightly "modified" version, of what most of us would be familiar with. http://www.
166 zrs70 : Ethnic cleansing????? Is that why Israel so openly attracts foreigners from multiple religions and backgrounds to move there?
167 Post contains links damirc : Sorry, can you back this up? I read different things ... http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=295232 http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdC
168 mariner : It's an old problem - any criticism of the policies of the present government of Israel is too often perceived as being anti-Israel and, ultimately,
169 DeltaMD90 : I did not mean that... although we do see some people go that far (equating simple criticism with antisemitism.) I was talking about using loaded wor
170 mariner : I do understand and agree with your point. And I do understand the need of my Jewish friends to defend Israel (if only in terms of "never again" - me
171 DeltaMD90 : And I understand as well. I think it gets to the point, however, where arguing for one side can ultimately hurt them. I'm not saying you did, or anyo
172 Post contains images NAV20 : Exactly right, Quokkas - and the camp I visited (Dachau) was not one of the 'death camps.' I used the word advisedly - I didn't mean that the Nazis e
173 Post contains links TheCommodore : Yes, ethnic cleansing in regards to "moving on" all the Palestinians. You know the illegal settlements Israel is building... Where do all the "displa
174 Post contains links mariner : I don't want to defend the situation in Gaza in any way - I could not - and while parts of Gaza are what you say, not all of it is. The journalist we
175 QFA380 : The EU has with open arms allowed ghettos to be created in their midst, with many (predominantly) Muslim immigrants. If that's what a human right loo
176 DeltaMD90 : We cannot let failures justify other failures... two wrongs don't make a right, as cliche as that sounds
177 Post contains links zrs70 : Nav, sounds like the guide/ guard gave you a snow job as to what Dachau actually was. Dachau was a true death camp with gas chambers and crematoria.
178 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Fair enough, zrs70, 'I got had.' But that's progress. What sort of changes do you have in mind? And what are the chances of them o them taking place?
179 Powerslide : The ones left in the West Bank will probably go into Jordan and those in Gaza, Egypt. Unless someone stands up to Israel by force, because the UN is
180 Pellegrine : I will never tolerate such ignorance from fellow Americans. What you said is ignorant straight up. No one is really interested in peace anyways, leas
181 777way : Not true, and in any case they are free to move out to Chritian countries or Israel, just as is being suggested for Palestinians to be accomodated by
182 sbworcs : And why shoudl these countries take them? Who will compensate them for the extra strain on the new "host" country - will Israel pay? Both sides need
183 DeltaMD90 : Because they're Arab. And Muslims. Let them stick to their own kind. (I can't believe people can say that and not think it's racist!) I'm telling you
184 mariner : Ah - Netanyahu's "Jordanian Option." While I fully support Israel as a Jewish state, I'm scratching my head at the idea that Palestinians should move
185 Post contains links NAV20 : Must admit that I don't support it any more, mariner; if I ever did. Because being Jewish is basically a religion - not a race, and certainly not a n
186 Quokkas : Again I would disagree because you are conflating Judaism with being Jewish. Throughout the ages, going back to the creation of Judea and even today,
187 Post contains links and images mariner : Then I guess it boils down to your (or anyone's) attitude to "theocracy." Surely England has been "theocratically inclined" at some stages of its his
188 NAV20 : I think it's really 'two sides of the coin,' Quokkas. I agree that Christianity and the Jewish religion - and the Muslim one for that matter - are cl
189 Post contains links Quokkas : By pure coincidence there is an article in today's Guardian discussing the attitude of Arab Israeli citizens to the elections due in January.
190 mariner : Hindsight is always perfect vision. At that time, there was no rational reason to suppose that there would be any mass movement of Jewish people to P
191 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Looks like the Palestinians are getting the chance to put their problems over now that they have access to the UN, anyway:- "The four European members
192 Post contains images Pellegrine : The bitch of Israel strikes and looks stupid again. Duhh we don't like what you're doing, but duhhhh, we ain't going to do diddily squat about it. In
193 Post contains links NAV20 : In fairness to Nuland, Pellegrine, a few days ago, she spoke pretty strongly against Israel's goings-on:- "U.S. State Department spokeswoman Victoria
194 EDKA : Actually, that was pretty much the case until probably early 1990's.... Probably not so now, not officialy anyway. I am afraid you are wrong here...
195 Post contains links damirc : Not really unexpected, but still ... "We will build up Jerusalem" (C) Bibi ... http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4324573,00.html 1200 new hous
196 777way : To me sanctions or war seem the only solution.
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