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Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Haven't seen this discussed, apologies if search has missed it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-New-York-train-Times-Square.html

I am disgusted. It appears there was nobody attempting to help this guy up of the track after some guy pushed him down there, and as a train arrives to mow him down, instead of helping one jerk decides to start taking pictures. I mean, seriously??

Surely this idiot could be charged with something. Or, is there more to it?

[Edited 2012-12-05 06:40:13]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3316 times:

More to it--this article interviews several pulitzer prize winning photographers, and all generally say the same thing:
it wasn't the photographer's fault, it was the newspaper's fault for putting it on the front page. By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.
http://gawker.com/5965659/would-you-...tzer+winning-photographers-respond


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.

If that's the best anyone can come up with to defend someone who didn't try to help, then it's pathetic. The guy, if you look at the picture, had an arm on the platform - no clambering onto the tracks necessary in order to try pulling him up. Jeez, imagine if nobody anywhere took the slightest risk to help anyone anyway?? Pretty darn sad.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21803 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
More to it--this article interviews several pulitzer prize winning photographers, and all generally say the same thing:
it wasn't the photographer's fault, it was the newspaper's fault for putting it on the front page.

Well, not quite. They say "we don't know the circumstances, it could be that the photographer was just too far away to be able to help". Which is what the photographer's excuse was, and while I find it a bit sketchy, I've got nothing to prove otherwise, so one has to take it at face value.

But yes, putting it on the front page of the newspaper was incredibly classless, and someone should lose their job for it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.

If that's the best anyone can come up with to defend someone who didn't try to help, then it's pathetic.

That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinexjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2471 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

+1

Especially if the guy who just pushed him down there was still hanging around on the platform, I would be next if I tried to help the man up.



Look ma' no hands!
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10259 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3242 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Well, not quite. They say "we don't know the circumstances, it could be that the photographer was just too far away to be able to help". Which is what the photographer's excuse was, and while I find it a bit sketchy, I've got nothing to prove otherwise, so one has to take it at face value.

      

Exactly. No point in jumping to conclusions without knowing all the circumstances, which we probably won't.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

       again.

I just had (more) explosives safety training for work. Basically, if we have a fire in the ordnance department, the fire department probably won't go in there until the fire extinguishes itself (obviously, assuming it's not about to blow up the whole neighborhood). And us employees are definitely not supposed to try and be heroes.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

-Mir
Quoting xjramper (Reply 4):
+1

Especially if the guy who just pushed him down there was still hanging around on the platform, I would be next if I tried to help the man up.

To a degree, of course risk is assessed. But it is rarely the case that there in literally no risk. Fine, if the guy was hanging around threatening others that would be an issue, but nowhere can I find such a suggestion. So fine, it may be speculation to an extent, but IF he wasn't around by then, and the guy had an arm on the platform to grab as appears to be the case, why wouldn't you help rather than start snapping away?

Also, even if you couldn't help, pretty reprehensible to be taking pictures like this and selling them.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14131 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3226 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.
http://gawker.com/5965659/would-you-...spond

They don´t have an emergency brake / stop signal switch accessible in the stations?
In Berlin ALL stations have emergency stop signal handles, which will cause a stop signal to appear in the tunnel before the station and cause the train to carry out an emergency braking maneuver.
http://whiteyberlin.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/026-notbremse.jpg
Also there are short circuit devices on each train and in each station, which can be used to shut down power to the third rail, but they require training.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Berliner-U-Bahn-Kurzschliesser-und-Strompruefkasten.jpg/800px-Berliner-U-Bahn-Kurzschliesser-und-Strompruefkasten.jpg
(the box on the left is a warning device for track workers to show them if the third rail is live).

Jan

[Edited 2012-12-05 08:38:37]

User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3199 times:

Reports indicate the guy was hanging there for 15 seconds. That's an eternity in that situation and someone should have at least attempted to help pull the guy out. If you're 40 feet from it taking photos you're three seconds away from pulling then 5 seconds away from getting him out of danger.

Taking photos instead of helping is a trend and people are being taught that aid will come from some official source, and that taking matters into their own hands is a risk and liability. Recently a cop was assaulted in front of twenty bystanders....he was struggling for his life while people took video, no one even called 911. Two or three people could have gone to the cops aid and reduced the danger, but people are being taught to not fend for themselves or help others....they're being taught to let some authority figure do it.

It's a damned shame, and it's a foreshadowing of how we're going to be approaching problems from now and that's a long slide downwards since everyone expects to be rescued and no one feels that it's their individual
responsibility.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14131 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 8):
Taking photos instead of helping is a trend and people are being taught that aid will come from some official source, and that taking matters into their own hands is a risk and liability. Recently a cop was assaulted in front of twenty bystanders....he was struggling for his life while people took video, no one even called 911. Two or three people could have gone to the cops aid and reduced the danger, but people are being taught to not fend for themselves or help others....they're being taught to let some authority figure do it.

Exactly. My first reaction would be to pull the emergency handle to stop a possible train and then to get the person off the tracks safely.

Jan


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21803 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3173 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
Fine, if the guy was hanging around threatening others that would be an issue, but nowhere can I find such a suggestion. So fine, it may be speculation to an extent, but IF he wasn't around by then, and the guy had an arm on the platform to grab as appears to be the case, why wouldn't you help rather than start snapping away?

Let's say you grab the man's arms and try to pull him out. He's heavy, though, and you can't do it. The train comes and hits the man, dragging him under, and since he doesn't let go of your arms, you get pulled down onto the tracks as well.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10259 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3125 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Yes, and let's say you go into the subway one day and get attacked by a herd of marauding homicidal giraffes - better stay out of the subway, I guess.

Did you have a reasonable belief that you would be attacked by a herd of marauding homicidal giraffes in the subway?

It's the same reason that it can be very dangerous to try and save a drowning person; you have a huge risk of being drowned by said person.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try and help; but it's not always cut-and-dry. And we all weren't there.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21803 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3106 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
My first reaction would be to pull the emergency handle to stop a possible train and then to get the person off the tracks safely.

Except there is no emergency handle in NYC subway stations. The only emergency brake handles or cords that I'm aware of are on the trains themselves.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12263 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3079 times:
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Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
It's the same reason that it can be very dangerous to try and save a drowning person; you have a huge risk of being drowned by said person.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try and help; but it's not always cut-and-dry. And we all weren't there.

This. No further comment needed. Although it would have been better to do nothing than to take a picture just to get a front page photo and nice payday.



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1028 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

I was riding the NY subway a couple of weeks ago and noticed an ad from the transport authority saying that about 50 people are hit by trains every year for various reasons.

I think they should build a gate system similar to the one on the Jubilee line in London. It might be costly but saving 50 people a year is worth it.



User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11500 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3071 times:

Well the nice way to say it is this: declaring someone an idiot is jumping to conclusions.

Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim? Any idea how close the train was? Any idea what it would take to get a large adult primate out of a 5 foot deep hole quickly? If you don't know all those things, you've jumped to conclusions.

If you want to criticize the Post for their sensationalization of the photo, that's fair game. But don't call the photographer an idiot when you don't have any information.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

I agree the story sounds shady but you weren't there. It's just as back as the Monday morning quarterbacking police and pilots have to endure from random people on the internet.

Now if you were only criticizing him for taking a photo in the first place, I could see where you are coming from, it's kinda strange (even though a lot of people tend to do stuff like that.)

But to not be there, only get a little bit of information, then blast him for not saving the guy?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die after being shoved onto the track, then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper who gruesomely sensationalised this awful misfortune. That is fair qualification in itself is feel, all other speculation aside.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21803 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die after being shoved onto the track, then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper

He was working for that newspaper at the time.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11500 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3014 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die

Dude. For all you know, he thought he was taking a photo of someone about to be a hero.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper

Do you actually know how the newspaper got the photo? If he was freelancing for them, they owned the rights to any and all photos that he took, regardless of whether he took this particular one.

This is how photographers make money. Don't begrudge him that.


As I said earlier, it is fair criticism to levy on the newspaper. But you didn't call the newspaper an idiot. You called the photographer an idiot.

[Edited 2012-12-05 11:35:06]


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User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):

  

Also, the man killed may have been intoxicated at the time, according to some reports. I'm sure most people on the platform didn't know if the drunk guy was the agressor or not, or if the bum was. I'd be hard-pressed to try to rescue an aggressor out of a dangerous situation, simply for fear of my own well-being.

Call me evil. I don't care.

Point is, we don't know what happened exactly. It is heartbreaking that a man died like that, but it could have been worse had somebody tried to rescue him.

What the newspaper did was tasteless - but they're in the business of making money by generating views. Ignore the newspapers if you don't like it.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3695 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

If I was standing there, I would assume the man could have gotten himself up. Furthermore, there is room on those tracks for a person to hide between the platform and the wheels.

What isn't clear about the pictures is the speed of the train. Without being there, I couldn't spread blame for anything here, except the guy who pushed him.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

Well, I guess we're not going to agree here, but I still find it highly distasteful, job or not.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4851 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2910 times:
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This is one of those situations where NO ONE knows exactly how they will react in a situation like that. You can say what you would do in that situation, but whether or not you actually do it when faced with something like that can only be determined after you have been there.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Well the nice way to say it is this: declaring someone an idiot is jumping to conclusions.

Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim? Any idea how close the train was? Any idea what it would take to get a large adult primate out of a 5 foot deep hole quickly? If you don't know all those things, you've jumped to conclusions.

If you want to criticize the Post for their sensationalization of the photo, that's fair game. But don't call the photographer an idiot when you don't have any information.

   Well said.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12807 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2902 times:
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Quoting eaa3 (Reply 15):
I think they should build a gate system similar to the one on the Jubilee line in London. It might be costly but saving 50 people a year is worth it.

Only a few stations on one line in London have that system.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
25 Post contains images vikkyvik : That's fine, but it doesn't mean you have to think the guy was an idiot. Plenty of people do/say things that are distasteful to me. If I don't want t
26 ltbewr : There might have been enough time to try to get the guy out before a train came in, but who knows. Many may freeze with such an event occurs and cann
27 canoecarrier : I'll agree with that his excuse was sketchy. I saw the interview he did on the Today show this morning. He made a valid point that right after the ma
28 Mir : No, that's a station with two side platforms and four tracks (one on each platform and then two in the middle for express trains). There are just col
29 jfk69 : As none of us were there none of us can really judge. We all think that we would be the hero and push the crazy man out of the way while hauling the m
30 Post contains links D L X : This is one of the most important points on the thread. The OP is angry at the photographer for doing what a photographer does: photograph newsworthy
31 Speedbird741 : No it is not. The photographer is an idiot. In fact, the photographer is a heartless, unsensible, massive imbecile. I am sorry, but none of those que
32 RussianJet : I will confess certainly that I could without doubt have worded the thread title better - but then, if it stirred a debate of opposing opinions then
33 D L X : Well, damn! If you say so, he must be. So... taking a photo of a disaster makes you an idiot? I guess the guy that videoed the Hindenburg, AA179, and
34 Post contains images lewis : So that is the opinion you have of journalists and photographers who cover war zones, disaster-hit areas or any other place/situation where people di
35 Speedbird741 : D L X, sincerely, do you genuinely believe that any of those three events are comparable to what is being discussed here? Do you believe that the con
36 Speedbird741 : No, Lewis, it is not. I can tell you that it is not the kind of thing that I would do or like to do, but I will not tell you that my opinion regardin
37 Mir : It's very difficult to argue that him just standing there and doing nothing would be better than trying to document what happened. At least he made h
38 canoecarrier : I think there's a lot of blame to go around. Because the photographer took the photo he's getting the brunt of it, but there were many other people t
39 Post contains images lewis : Ok here is another one, not from a distance. So what is the difference here? Is it because it is NYC vs Baghdad, Kabul, Saigon or any other far away
40 Speedbird741 : Lewis, however different those two men and their motivations and stories may have been from those in this train story, and however impacting that pho
41 vikkyvik : Well then consider that he might not have thought about it. Instinct can be a strange thing, and your brain tends not to work too well when faced wit
42 lewis : Don't get me wrong, I could NEVER do something like that, I just do not have the stomach for it. And, since I do know who Kevin Carter is (I am a fan
43 AR385 : The above is perfectly valid because you are talking about you and about what you don´t understand. But this: That is much bigger and what you are d
44 Speedbird741 : I grew up in the middle of one of the greatest, longest, and most destructive civil wars in modern history. I have a pretty good idea of what indecen
45 Post contains images D L X : ABSOLUTELY! You just do not want to accept that because it does not align with your desired conclusion. The only way they are different are in the ma
46 lewis : I don't think it says something negative about the photographer. It is just another job that needs to be done by someone. I also think that I could n
47 AR385 : I call it the way I see it. If it bothers you, you are free to ignore my posts. You can tell me whatever you want all day long. But the following quo
48 Speedbird741 : I made no such accusation. I only accused the photographer of allotting time to take a photograph rather than trying to help further or trying to hel
49 FlyDeltaJets : You cant be serious right? I stood up and applauded after reading this. It needs to be reposted everywhere this debate is going on. Bottom line this
50 stealthz : A lot of people here are saying that the photographer acted as any PJ would.. the old "f8 and be there!!" mantra. The photographer himself is saying o
51 pellegrine : Actually, I think anyone who blames the photographer is shameful and needs to get a grip. The only one who deserves blame is the murderer who pushed t
52 RussianJet : Sorry. Have not blamed the photographer instead of the murderer in any way. Have merely deplored the photographer's actions which were separate. No us
53 stealthz : Perhaps that is around the wrong way, ..being morally absent, is just what is... and we are all the poorer for it.
54 Post contains links jfk69 : I am just curious to know where the outrage was back in August when the NY times ran a photo of the Empire State Building shooting bleeding out on the
55 Mir : So you're absolutely certain that he had enough time to go over and help the man? Nn the NYC subway there's third rail power, and photography of trai
56 pellegrine : I feel bad for the victim, the victim's family, and the person who was in command of that train. Imagine. Horrifying. I was in midtown a few weeks ago
57 D L X : You made the accusation in your very first post to this thread, noting all the things that a decent person would have done, then declaring the photog
58 D L X : What I'm sensing on this thread is a lot of transferred disapproval from the NY Post to the photographer. The NY Post definitely glorifies the photo t
59 Speedbird741 : Mir, again, no one here that shares my view is arguing on the basis of whether or not he had time to save the man. The *only* fact that matters is th
60 jfk69 : 1) Hardly the same controversy that this pic is creating 2) The famous photos that were posted before did not have wacky Post headlines either....pic
61 Mir : So you believe he would have been more useful just standing there in solemn silence rather than document what happened? We'll have to agree to disagr
62 Starbuk7 : I have not been to New York City since I was very young so I do not know how things operate in their subway system. My question is that in most subway
63 Speedbird741 : No, I don't. I believe it would have been more decent of him to do nothing than to take the time to capture the moment. Even if we leave out his inte
64 Mir : In other words, it would be more decent of him to be useless. Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. And again, this is all predicated on the assump
65 Post contains images D L X : But some people refuse to accept that. Let's add one more group of people who will be glad this photo was taken: the victim's family. It will be exhi
66 Aesma : Why only a few stations, is it under installation ? 3 full lines are equipped in Paris, including the two most busy lines (the 1 that many tourists u
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