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BMW 4-Series Revealed  
User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Yes, it's called a "concept", but recent history tells us that these "close to release" BMW concepts are what the final product will look like.

So here you go:

http://www.f30post.com/goodiesforyou/4/f32/concept/905am63/exterior/P90108556-highRes.jpg
http://www.f30post.com/goodiesforyou/4/f32/concept/905am63/exterior/P90108562-highRes.jpg
http://www.f30post.com/goodiesforyou/4/f32/concept/905am63/exterior/P90108563-highRes.jpg
http://www.f30post.com/goodiesforyou/4/f32/concept/905am63/interiorpics/P90108560-highRes.jpg

I'm not sure the 3 series coupe needed a new model number, but aside from that, I absolutely love it.

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2664 times:

Quoting racko (Thread starter):
I'm not sure the 3 series coupe needed a new model number

I don't feel strongly about it. But for God's sake fix the rest of their numbering system. The 335i has a 3.0L engine and 328i has a 2.0L engine, while the 330d has a 3.0L one. And get rid of the "i" already. Engines have been fuel injected for three decades, it's not worth advertising anymore.

The car itself looks very good, despite the rather blatant ripoff of the Panamera with the side vent. The 3/4 series I'm most interested in is the Grand Turismo.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting racko (Thread starter):
I'm not sure the 3 series coupe needed a new model number

Well, it makes some sense because the series 5 coupé is called "6".



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineaero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I don't feel strongly about it. But for God's sake fix the rest of their numbering system. The 335i has a 3.0L engine and 328i has a 2.0L engine, while the 330d has a 3.0L one. And get rid of the "i" already. Engines have been fuel injected for three decades, it's not worth advertising anymore.

I wholeheartedly agree. Other examples, for example the E39 5-series: The 520i originally had a 2-litre engine, the facelift had a 2.2-litre engine; the 540i had a 4.4-litre engine.
While we’re at it:

Mercedes-Benz E-Class W211:
· E200CDI had the same 2.2-litre engine block as the E220CDI
· E280CDI and E320CDI had the same 3-litre engine block as the E300CDI
· E63 AMG had a 6.2-litre engine

Now it’s worse though. C-Class W204:
· C180 has a 1.6-litre engine
· C200 and C250 both have a 1.8-litre engine

S-Class W221:
· S600 has a 5.5-litre engine
· S65 AMG has a 6-litre engine
· S63 AMG had a 6.2-litre engine, now it’s a 5.5-litre

E-Class W212:
· S500 had a 5.5-litre engine, now it has got a 4.7-litre engine

--

Utterly annoying and a sad change from the sense-making nomenclature!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting aero145 (Reply 3):
E63 AMG had a 6.2-litre engine

That one made some sense due to the fact that they wanted to draw on the heritage of the 300SEL 6.3, not unlike how I'm sure Ford loves having a 5.0 badge on the side of the Mustang GT. It got ridiculous once they dropped back to a 5.5 liter twin-turbo engine and kept the 63 name.

Quoting aero145 (Reply 3):
S500 had a 5.5-litre engine, now it has got a 4.7-litre engine

In the US they did change the name from S500 to S550 when the engine grew to 5.5 liters, but like the AMG models did not change it again when the engine got smaller.

The E350 with the gasoline engine actually is 3.5 liters, while the diesel E350 BlueTec is only 3.0.

Somebody has to bring some sanity back into this.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8279 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Nice looking, but how about a 4 door? More practical with kids or grandkids. Safer also with kids and grandkids.

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Nice looking, but how about a 4 door? More practical with kids or grandkids. Safer also with kids and grandkids.

The car you're looking for then would be the 3-series sedan which is already on sale.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Nice looking, but how about a 4 door?

Already done, or you could also wait for the Gran Turismo version.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2462 times:
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Now would this "4" Series Coupe be a little bigger than the 3 Series? I'm a big guy and cannot afford a 5 or 6 Series and I like coupes!!!

Thanks,

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7585 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Greeaaaaaat....now more d-bags in Scottsdale have a faster car to drive   

BRB tuning up my Honda so I can outrun these fools  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Nice looking, but how about a 4 door? More practical with kids or grandkids. Safer also with kids and grandkids.

Do you honestly think that's safe????  



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2440 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
But for God's sake fix the rest of their numbering system. The 335i has a 3.0L engine and 328i has a 2.0L engine, while the 330d has a 3.0L one. And get rid of the "i" already. Engines have been fuel injected for three decades, it's not worth advertising anymore.

Not gonna happen. They would have to get rid of quite a few models to achieve that, as for example the 316d, 318d and 320d all have a 2 liter engine.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Nice looking, but how about a 4 door? More practical with kids or grandkids. Safer also with kids and grandkids.

Aside from the already-mentioned regular 3 series there will likely be a 4 series "gran coupe", which will be a 4 door version of the 4. Confusing, but you can blame the people who bought the Mercedes CLS and A5 Sportback for that.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 8):
Now would this "4" Series Coupe be a little bigger than the 3 Series? I'm a big guy and cannot afford a 5 or 6 Series and I like coupes!!!

Doubt it. If you don't fit into a F30 3 series, you'll most likely won't fit into this one either.


User currently offlinesteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2394 times:

Stunning car.
Well done BMW. I really like their style.
The 6 series Gran Tour is another fantastic car from an esthetic point of view.
I still think that big cars with big thirsty engines are a slap in the face of the economy
and the environment but I can appreciate the design.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

A 3-series Coupé with computer game aesthetics inspired details. Thats what I see. Not bad though, as Steman says, inspired by the awesome Gran Coupé.

Quoting steman (Reply 11):
I still think that big cars with big thirsty engines are a slap in the face of the economy
and the environment but I can appreciate the design.

It depends. I agree if you talk about mass cars like the 7-series and the S-Class which also do a lot of mileage. But I absolutely disagree if you should include rarities like Ferrari of Rolls-Royce in your verdict. You´ll be surprised to know that the average Rolls consumes less fuel than the average VW Golf or even Toyota Prius - in a year that is. And the average Rolls lasts an incredible 50 years or so. If anything, people who drive a lot no matter what car are a slap in the face of the environment, not the car type itself.


User currently offlinesteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

@na,

you have a point there.
And it´s Gran Coupé, not Gran Tour. I keep on getting that wrong. Thanks for clarification.

In a time in which cars from any manufacturer look the same, it´s good to find one that makes
you turn your head when it drives by.

I particularly like the aggressive face of the 3- and 4-series. It reminds me of snarling wolf.
And the side view shows great proportions too.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
n a time in which cars from any manufacturer look the same, it´s good to find one that makes
you turn your head when it drives by.

I particularly like the aggressive face of the 3- and 4-series. It reminds me of snarling wolf.
And the side view shows great proportions too.

BMW currently has the best design in Germany though the family look policy is becoming a bit tight recently, the 5- and 3-series being too similar for my taste. I dont hope in 5 years time they end up where Audi is now where almost everything is just the same in different sizes.


User currently offlinesteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1391 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

I actually have problems in making out the 5 from the 7 but I find the newest 3 has a very
strong personality.
I am no big fan of their SUV, but then again, I don´t like SUVs.


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3307 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2309 times:
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Quoting racko (Thread starter):
I'm not sure the 3 series coupe needed a new model number, but aside from that, I absolutely love it.

I think the new numbering makes sense. The old 3-series coupe was built on a different chassis (and different production line) than the 3-series sedan anyway, so splitting them into two product lines made sense. And, despite the ridiculous number of models we'll now have (3 series, 3-GT, 4-series, 4-GC) it aligns better with the 5/6-series models (5-series, 5-GT, 6-series, 6-GC).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
The 3/4 series I'm most interested in is the Grand Turismo.

Funny, I think the GT models from BMW are among the world's most hideous cars in production (along with the 1-series, 2-series, X6, Honda Crosstour, Merc G-wagon, and the Hyundai Veloster).

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 8):
Now would this "4" Series Coupe be a little bigger than the 3 Series? I'm a big guy and cannot afford a 5 or 6 Series and I like coupes!!!

Yes, the 3-series coupe was always longer, wider, and lower than the 3-series sedan, and this follows suit. It's several inches wider, a few inches lower, and almost half-a-foot longer.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
BRB tuning up my Honda so I can outrun these fools

That's my goal in tuning my car: outrun a stock BMW M3. I'm already beating 335s easily.

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Never been a Beemer fan, but I gotta admit, that's pretty sharp.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Greeaaaaaat....now more d-bags in Scottsdale have a faster car to drive   

BRB tuning up my Honda so I can outrun these fools

There are some races where even if you win, you're still a loser.

BMWs have a high asshat rating, but it still isn't nearly up to rice rocket levels.

Quoting racko (Reply 10):
Not gonna happen. They would have to get rid of quite a few models to achieve that, as for example the 316d, 318d and 320d all have a 2 liter engine.

True, but I don't see why they couldn't. They don't need the 335i and 335is to use different numbers, and those two don't differ by enough to necessarily be a different model. The 335is could be essentially a $7000 sport package.

Quoting steman (Reply 11):
I still think that big cars with big thirsty engines are a slap in the face of the economy
and the environment but I can appreciate the design.

Then don't buy it. But let the rest of us have our guilt-free automotive fun.

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
And it´s Gran Coupé, not Gran Tour. I keep on getting that wrong. Thanks for clarification.

They are different body styles, but the 3/4 series will be getting both with the Gran Turismo most likely being a 3 series and the Gran Coupe a 4. Camouflaged test mules of both have been spotted.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 16):
Funny, I think the GT models from BMW are among the world's most hideous cars in production

It's not a good looking car by any stretch, but I imagine it's immensely useful. The 3 series Gran Turismo appears to be a better looking car.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2267 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Greeaaaaaat....now more d-bags in Scottsdale have a faster car to drive

Not really, its just the 3 series coupe being marketed as a different name now. BMW has seen fit to call the 3 series coupe, convertible and one other I can't remember the 4 series now. So in reality the 3 series will just be the sedan and wagon I believe. I've heard there will be an M4, but I'm not sure if that means there will be no M3.

Oh, and this d-bag will be happy to lease a 435i convert when the lease is up on my 2012 335i.



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

Quoting steman (Reply 15):
but then again, I don´t like SUVs.

You mean SUV = Super Unnecessary Vehicle? Right then, as most SUVs in Germany are being used by mums driving their kids to school anyway. Its a truly ridiculous trend in the automobile industry I fail to understand too.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting wagz (Reply 19):
Not really, its just the 3 series coupe being marketed as a different name now.

Which means "more exclusivity" (at least from a marketing point of view), which means they can demand higher prices, which means higher revenue, which leads to happy stockholders.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2172 times:

If the next 3-series Coupé is called 4-series it just means they can charge 2000 or 3000 Euros more or so without delivering anything for it.

User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting wagz (Reply 19):
I've heard there will be an M4, but I'm not sure if that means there will be no M3.

Most likely there will both be an M3 (sedan) as well as an M4 (coupe, convertible, gran coupe).


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 23):
Most likely there will both be an M3 (sedan) as well as an M4 (coupe, convertible, gran coupe).

That's pretty much in line with what I've seen, although I've seen rumors that they will go back to six cylinder engines, which is a move I'm all in favor of. We've already seen an M6 Gran Coupe, so I'd imagine an M4 Gran Coupe is a pretty safe bet.

I for one am a fan of the "four door coupes" although the current Mercedes CLS doesn't look quite as good as the last one. The A7 is the best looking four door Audi makes, and the Panamera could have looked better if they'd been a little less practical with the roofline but I do love their Sport Turismo version.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
for one am a fan of the "four door coupes" although the current Mercedes CLS doesn't look quite as good as the last one. The A7 is the best looking four door Audi makes, and the Panamera could have looked better if they'd been a little less practical with the roofline but I do love their Sport Turismo version.

Spot-on 100%. The four-door Coupé is actually my favourite bodystyle. I only wish someone would offer one thats not in the unaffordable luxury-class. Such car would perfectly fit to "my" brand Alfa Romeo. I would buy it.


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3307 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2029 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):

BMWs have a high asshat rating, but it still isn't nearly up to rice rocket levels.

Amen.

Quoting steman (Reply 11):
I still think that big cars with big thirsty engines are a slap in the face of the economy

Oops. So is my car's average of 18mpg not acceptable to you?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Then don't buy it. But let the rest of us have our guilt-free automotive fun.

Amen! Forced induction, manual transmission, a huge excess of power and torque, and terrible gas mileage! Those are the traits I went for in my car.

Quoting racko (Reply 23):
Most likely there will both be an M3 (sedan) as well as an M4 (coupe, convertible, gran coupe)

Absolutely. The M-line isn't going anywhere for the sedan.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):

I for one am a fan of the "four door coupes" although the current Mercedes CLS doesn't look quite as good as the last one. The A7 is the best looking four door Audi makes, and the Panamera could have looked better if they'd been a little less practical with the roofline but I do love their Sport Turismo version.

In terms of four-door coupes, the order for looks is: Aston Martin Rapide, BMW 6GC, Mercedes CLS, Audi A7, every other 4-door coupe, Porsche Panamera, Acura RDX, Honda Crosstour.

Quoting na (Reply 25):
I only wish someone would offer one thats not in the unaffordable luxury-class. Such car would perfectly fit to "my" brand Alfa Romeo. I would buy it.

Honda Crosstour! It's hideous, and rather large, but it meets your criteria of affordable!

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 26):
Honda Crosstour! It's hideous, and rather large, but it meets your criteria of affordable!

Its rather ugly at least seen from the front, yes, but its not a 4d-Coupé at all, its a hatchback with high chassis.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 26):
In terms of four-door coupes, the order for looks is: Aston Martin Rapide, BMW 6GC, Mercedes CLS, Audi A7,

I´d sign that, the Rapide is a clear no.1 (though its last if it comes to practicability - I couldnt even enter its rear seats with a driver in front of me!). The new Panamera Sport Turismo will jump right in the middle of this lineup, as its much nicer than the standard fat-assed Panamera.


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

I have boring tastes admittedly but I don't really understand what was wrong with the sedan body style that automakers needed to go on a "four-door coupe" style odyssey. Okay with the Aston Martin Rapide it definitely works, but eh, some of my favorite four-doors are most definitely sedans.

Also some people are confusing Honda's weird fascination with Kamm-tails as an effort to make that four-door-coupe thing where the Crosstour is really more of a sedan crossover SUV, like the Toyota Highlander is to the Camry.


User currently offlineaero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 18
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2017 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
It got ridiculous once they dropped back to a 5.5 liter twin-turbo engine and kept the 63 name.

Especially when one looks back and sees the R230 SL55 AMG which definitely had a 5.5-litre engine AND was an AMG!


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I don't feel strongly about it. But for God's sake fix the rest of their numbering system. The 335i has a 3.0L engine and 328i has a 2.0L engine, while the 330d has a 3.0L one.

Just curious, but doesn't the engine often change for the various international markets? I could really understand it then, they make a model series and name the car that but then keep the car name the same even for the various lines around the world.

Of course I also know they don't want to constantly change the name (series number) of the car every for every tweak they make to it. The various companies invest a lot of effort into their "brand" and have to constantly redo marketing every year and re-educate and "re-excite" the market every year to address the confusion it would create would be expensive. And importantly, that would leave less money to spend to improve the cars themselves.

Quoting na (Reply 20):
You mean SUV = Super Unnecessary Vehicle? Right then, as most SUVs in Germany are being used by mums driving their kids to school anyway. Its a truly ridiculous trend in the automobile industry I fail to understand too.

I never understood the extreme distaste some people have that blinds them to the practicality of these cars. What if you have four, five, or six kids that you pick up from school? Or soccer practice that you take four kids to and their equipment? We carpool a lot with others in our neighborhood in order to save ourselves from each having to drive all the time to each of these events. Or do you think it is more efficient to have a three four-seaters go each and every time?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1993 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 2):
Well, it makes some sense because the series 5 coupé is called "6".
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
Which means "more exclusivity" (at least from a marketing point of view), which means they can demand higher prices, which means higher revenue, which leads to happy stockholders.

I never thought of the 6 series as a 5 coupe for this very reason, it is so much more expensive than a base 5 series !

I don't like or need rear doors personally, so if I had to buy/lease a BMW it would be a 3 coupé or 1 coupé (or cabrio). If the 3 coupé becomes a significantly more expensive 4 with the same policy of no entry level engine, it loses appeal. Already the 1 coupé/cabrio doesn't get the smallest engines of the 1 hatch but I wouldn't consider them anyway.

In practice the BMW I'm most likely to buy is a vintage one !  



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1977 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 30):
I never understood the extreme distaste some people have that blinds them to the practicality of these cars. What if you have four, five, or six kids that you pick up from school? Or soccer practice that you take four kids to and their equipment? We carpool a lot with others in our neighborhood in order to save ourselves from each having to drive all the time to each of these events. Or do you think it is more efficient to have a three four-seaters go each and every time?

So buy a VW Sharan or something like that. And unless you are transporting 6 kids all the time it can be a lot more efficient to drive with 2 normal cars instead. SUVs waste a shitload of fuel, make it harder to see traffic for everybody not driving a monstrosity and make accidents more dangerous because there just is more kinetic energy involved. In the city, they stand in the way because mommy slows down all the time as she has no idea how wide her tank is and she's afraid to scratch the paint of her so-called "utility vehicle". And the vast majority of them look like shit.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 32):
So buy a VW Sharan or something like that. And unless you are transporting 6 kids all the time it can be a lot more efficient to drive with 2 normal cars instead.

How does one person drive two cars at once? How does one tow a trailer to go camping? And beside the Sharan only gets a few more mile per gallon than my SUV, what is soo efficient about it?

There are many reasons why people make a good decision to but an SUV class vehicle. There are also plenty of people that just buy it because they want too. It doesn't make them bad or the SUV bad or the "Sharan" type cars an overall better choice for people or society.

Anyway, I don't want to take this OT so I'll let it rest here.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-12-07 11:03:33]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1955 times:

Quoting na (Reply 25):
I only wish someone would offer one thats not in the unaffordable luxury-class.

Some cheaper cars have gotten lower and sleeker too. The Volkswagen CC comes to mind, and I don't see this trend dying out in the near future.

Quoting na (Reply 25):
Such car would perfectly fit to "my" brand Alfa Romeo. I would buy it.

Build it as an Alfa variant of the Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300.

Quoting tugger (Reply 30):
Just curious, but doesn't the engine often change for the various international markets?

With BMW and most of the other European marques the US gets a subset of the engines offered. Usually on European luxury cars they will offer one or more smaller engines that are not imported and will only bring one diesel to the US at best. Improving technology and higher gas prices are changing this a bit though. For example, 2012 is, as far as I know, the first time that BMW has sent a four cylinder 5 Series to the US in the 528i, although Europeans still also have the choice of a less powerful 520i. (Oddly enough BMW had no problem lowering the number of that model from 523i previously)



Quoting racko (Reply 32):
So buy a VW Sharan or something like that.

Those aren't sold here, although the Routan is. But, to address the question the answer is fairly simple: minivans are lame.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1945 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):

Some cheaper cars have gotten lower and sleeker too. The Volkswagen CC comes to mind, and I don't see this trend dying out in the near future.

The CC is kind of that, and kind of an upmarket retooling of the Passat to accommodate the new US-built mainstream version.

Quoting tugger (Reply 30):

Just curious, but doesn't the engine often change for the various international markets? I could really understand it then, they make a model series and name the car that but then keep the car name the same even for the various lines around the world.

Of course I also know they don't want to constantly change the name (series number) of the car every for every tweak they make to it. The various companies invest a lot of effort into their "brand" and have to constantly redo marketing every year and re-educate and "re-excite" the market every year to address the confusion it would create would be expensive. And importantly, that would leave less money to spend to improve the cars themselves.

The usual trend, with some exceptions in various niches, is Europe getting bigger diesels and smaller gasoline engines, and certain countries also get specific displacements for tax reasons (I think Japan used to be like this but I'm not sure if that's still the case.) Thing is with numbering by displacement that most of the engines are the same in that regard now, and when they get smaller you don't want a lower number, I guess. It's kind of a case-by-case thing though, the numbers on BMWs and Benzes are kinda like trim levels in some ways, whereas the Porsche 911 is always a 911 and ritzier versions are distinguished in other ways (Carrera, S, Turbo, and so on) even if the engine is somewhat incidental (Carrera S versus Carrera 4S.)


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
Which means "more exclusivity" (at least from a marketing point of view), which means they can demand higher prices, which means higher revenue, which leads to happy stockholders.

BMW seems to have a big enough parts bin so they can add just enough stuff to to give the new 4 series a sense of being a distinct series. However they do run the risk of having too many similar models, and indeed there is a cost for each additional model.

Personally I hope the competitors keep them honest, otherwise the price will keep moving up. I nearly bought a G35 instead of the 330i I now drive, and it was a pretty close call for me to make. On the other hand, Audi was not keeping them honest, they were charging more than the BMW for what largely was VW mechanicals, albeit with a very nice interior.

However, I'm thinking the Tesla S and/or its offshoots will make most of them obsolete shortly...

[Edited 2012-12-07 14:14:56]


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
That's pretty much in line with what I've seen, although I've seen rumors that they will go back to six cylinder engines, which is a move I'm all in favor of. We've already seen an M6 Gran Coupe, so I'd imagine an M4 Gran Coupe is a pretty safe bet.

As far as I know the M3 (and M4 I guess) will get 6 cylinder turbo engines. Not sure if I'm happy with it, I still think turbocharged engines aren't as responsive as naturally aspirated ones and not as nice and smooth to drive. But I guess it is a trend I have to live with, the new 5 series only has one non-turbocharged engine left (the 530i with a 3.0 V6 if I'm not mistaken).

I used to like the old 6 cylinder M3 E46 better than the current V8, but I'm not so sure anymore. The sound of the V8 is absolutely brilliant.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 37):
But I guess it is a trend I have to live with, the new 5 series only has one non-turbocharged engine left (the 530i with a 3.0 V6 if I'm not mistaken).

Not sure if you are mistaken, but I can report the 2012 530i the dealer lent me here in the US while my 330i was in for a service was a v6 turbo.

I too prefer the naturally aspirated engine. I didn't have issues with lag on the 530i. I just think the car doesn't need it, and I prefer to avoid the initial cost, extra weight and extra maintenance issues that come with a turbo.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 16
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1783 times:
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As far as price point for this 4 series goes, I read a rumor on a BMW forum I frequent (yes, only a rumor so take this with a few grains of salt). It stated that the 4 series coupe would price about 2000 Euros/$2600 USD higher than the 3 series sedan. That really isn't very bad considering the past 3 series coupe has already been priced $2000 or so higher than the sedan counterpart.


I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 30):
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 37):
the new 5 series only has one non-turbocharged engine left (the 530i with a 3.0 V6 if I'm not mistaken).
Quoting Revelation (Reply 38):
Not sure if you are mistaken, but I can report the 2012 530i the dealer lent me here in the US while my 330i was in for a service was a v6 turbo.

BMW doesn't do V6s they do L6s. And yes the current 5 series has an all turbo line-up (starting with 4 cylinders engines in Europe).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
BMW doesn't do V6s they do L6s.

Yep, you are correct, thanks for the correction!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 35):
It's kind of a case-by-case thing though, the numbers on BMWs and Benzes are kinda like trim levels in some ways,

In many cases they are. Usually they offer more than just a larger (maybe, or it could just be more powerful) engine.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 35):
Porsche 911 is always a 911 and ritzier versions are distinguished in other ways (Carrera, S, Turbo, and so on) even if the engine is somewhat incidental (Carrera S versus Carrera 4S.)

Porsche keeps it relatively logical, although they've added some trim levels lately. S is more powerful and sporty than the base model, while an R or RS is sportier still but usually a bit more hardcore and stripped out for track use. Relatively recently they've started adding a GTS trim level with more power and performance to slot between the S and Turbo models. Turbo, Hybrid, and Diesel models are exactly what they say they are.

Porsche has offered a "powerkit" option on some of its models that other manufacturers might have considered as a separate model. But highly priced, and sometimes silly, options are a Porsche hallmark. (they aren't the only offender though)

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 37):
Not sure if I'm happy with it, I still think turbocharged engines aren't as responsive as naturally aspirated ones and not as nice and smooth to drive.

Modern turbo technology with variable geometry and computer controlled wastegates essentially make turbo lag a thing of the past. A V6 engine will be inherently less smooth and have more vibration than either an I6 or a V8.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 37):
But I guess it is a trend I have to live with, the new 5 series only has one non-turbocharged engine left (the 530i with a 3.0 V6 if I'm not mistaken).

In the US, all of the 5 Series engines are turbos. Either a 2.0L I4, 3.0L I6, or a 4.4L V8 in either the 550i or M5.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 37):
I used to like the old 6 cylinder M3 E46 better than the current V8, but I'm not so sure anymore.

You're not the only one, which is what partly contributed to the popularity of the 1M. When you looked at the specs, you could see that it essentially recreated the E46 M3 while the new M3 grew a bit.

Quoting wagz (Reply 39):
It stated that the 4 series coupe would price about 2000 Euros/$2600 USD higher than the 3 series sedan. That really isn't very bad considering the past 3 series coupe has already been priced $2000 or so higher than the sedan counterpart.

   That's basically the way it was before, so I don't see why they'd change.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Modern turbo technology with variable geometry and computer controlled wastegates essentially make turbo lag a thing of the past.

I have only very limited experience driving turbo cars but between the peaky naturally aspirated four on my Honda and the turbo five on my dad's old (2005) Volvo, I think the difference isn't so much responsiveness as it is the overall shape of the power and torque curves, the Honda revs up at a roughly constant rate whereas the Volvo starts slower but builds to a much stronger top end. Transmission gearing probably has a lot to do with this as well.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1719 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 43):
I think the difference isn't so much responsiveness as it is the overall shape of the power and torque curves

Thats a decent way of putting it.

I drove the BMW 535i with i4 turbo and the 535 with i6 turbo. I found the turbo didn't do much to change the peaky nature of the i4 and it's lack of power right where you need it most, when passing on the interstate. The i6 probably had enough umph so the turbo was mostly icing on the cake.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Modern turbo technology with variable geometry and computer controlled wastegates essentially make turbo lag a thing of the past.

Still the turbo has its challenges. We saw BMW go from dual turbos to single turbo dual scroll pretty quickly. They still of course increase pressure and temperature of the input paths, which means they have to be heavier or use more costly materials, and quite often means they wear out quicker. The turbo itself adds weight and cost, and god help you if it has a meltdown after the warrantee expires. To me, it's not a winning combination.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineflight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3398 posts, RR: 6
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):

The 535i has been and still is a six cylinder. You may be thinking of the 528i which recently has changed from a naturally aspirated six to a turbo four.


User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1683 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
BMW doesn't do V6s they do L6s. And yes the current 5 series has an all turbo line-up (starting with 4 cylinders engines in Europe).

You are of course completely correct, silly mistake/typo from my side.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
In the US, all of the 5 Series engines are turbos. Either a 2.0L I4, 3.0L I6, or a 4.4L V8 in either the 550i or M5.

Ah ok. In Europe we still have the 530 petrol with a N/A straight-6 3 liter. Not for very long anymore, probably.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
You're not the only one, which is what partly contributed to the popularity of the 1M. When you looked at the specs, you could see that it essentially recreated the E46 M3 while the new M3 grew a bit.

True. It's a pity the BMW M-division had to build those X5M and X6M cars, which are not at all M-like cars, but rather heavy and cumbersome cars with just a big engine, not at all sports cars. Sadly, it was either those cars or a new M3 CSL. Economically, they made the right decision, but emotionally they didn't, not at all.

You're right about the 1M, but I don't really like the looks of it I'm afraid. I also heard it can be a bit understeery, although most reviews are raving on about it being the best thing since sliced bread. Haven't driven it yet myself (to be brutally honest I've never driven any BMW M car yet, it's mostly daydreaming).


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3651 posts, RR: 5
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
The Volkswagen CC comes to mind, and I don't see this trend dying out in the near future.

Sales of which are down 28% for the year after the recent refresh.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 47):
Sales of which are down 28% for the year after the recent refresh.

The new Passat probably stole some of their sales, even if they serve slightly different markets. There was no 2011 Passat in the US; if you wanted a VW sedan bigger than the Jetta you had to take the CC. (Have to keep in mind that while the CC's base price is now much higher than the new Passat, it wasn't that much higher than the MSRP of the old Passat).


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

While doing my research for the previous post (I'm not too interested in sedans usually) I found a review of the 535i where they said it was nice, the sound of the engine was great, but on the track the 528i was better since its lighter engine made all the difference in the corners and was almost as fast in the straights. The sound was very muffled though.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):
True. It's a pity the BMW M-division had to build those X5M and X6M cars, which are not at all M-like cars,

If you want to drive an SUV you might as well drive a fast one. But why they do M versions of the X5 and X6 while leaving the 7 Series entirely to Alpina is puzzling.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):
You're right about the 1M, but I don't really like the looks of it I'm afraid.

I thought it was the best looking M car since the E39 M5. It was tight, muscular, and mostly no nonsense.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 46):
I also heard it can be a bit understeery, although most reviews are raving on about it being the best thing since sliced bread.

I've not driven one either, but I'm inclined to agree with its fans. On the internet I saw a new one listed with a $40k markup and used ones are still listed for more than the original list price. The love for the 1M is not unfounded and comes largely from the purity of the design. It's a pretty understandable push back against the increasing size, weight, and softness of the M3.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 49):
on the track the 528i was better since its lighter engine made all the difference in the corners and was almost as fast in the straights. The sound was very muffled though

Maybe BMW will add those stupid ass engine sound speakers like they have in the M5.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1601 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
If you want to drive an SUV you might as well drive a fast one. But why they do M versions of the X5 and X6 while leaving the 7 Series entirely to Alpina is puzzling.

I always liked to think that the M division people were real enthusiasts, only wanting to build thoroughbreds. Therefore just putting a fast engine in a car not designed to corner fast does not make me happy. To be honest, a 7-series M would be pointless for that reason too, in my opinion. I've driven one and it's not a car designed to go wild on a circuit at all.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
I've not driven one either, but I'm inclined to agree with its fans. On the internet I saw a new one listed with a $40k markup and used ones are still listed for more than the original list price. The love for the 1M is not unfounded and comes largely from the purity of the design. It's a pretty understandable push back against the increasing size, weight, and softness of the M3.

True, those things are in demand. And after all, taste is personal and I can understand the reason why one would want to own one. I still covet the E46 M3 CSL more. It's probably not as quick, but sounds absolutely fantastic and is better looking in my opinion.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):

Maybe BMW will add those stupid ass engine sound speakers like they have in the M5.

That's just wrong on all levels and another problem of all turbocharged cars.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 51):
Therefore just putting a fast engine in a car not designed to corner fast does not make me happy. To be honest, a 7-series M would be pointless for that reason too, in my opinion.

I'm sure that S-Class AMG, Porsche Panamera, and Quattroporte drivers would disagree. I'm a fan of small and light, but big cars can be fun too.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 51):
That's just wrong on all levels and another problem of all turbocharged cars.

Plenty of turbo cars sound great. That Hennessey Viper sounds like an actual snake with the blow off valves when it upshifts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuZYRxcTg8M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TXLMR74nmY



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1549 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
I thought it was the best looking M car since the E39 M5. It was tight, muscular, and mostly no nonsense.

'Sup fellow E39 M5 fan? Yeah, the 1M is decent looking, I think they went a little overkill on the wheelarches though. At the LA Auto Show they showed off a 135is with 320 horsepower instead of 300 on the standard 135i, that might be an okay compromise now that the 1M is probably mostly (entirely?) sold out.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 53):
Yeah, the 1M is decent looking, I think they went a little overkill on the wheelarches though.

I don't. If they'd gone whole hog on the body kit with a big wing and silly ground effects you'd be absolutely right. But the rest of it is rather understated so the muscular wheel arches work well. See the Mercedes 500E, it does the same thing.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 53):
At the LA Auto Show they showed off a 135is with 320 horsepower instead of 300 on the standard 135i

It's not bad, and with a bit of tuning could be rather nice. Might be a better value than a new M3.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 53):
now that the 1M is probably mostly (entirely?) sold out.

It is. A quick spin on AutoTrader shows them being sold for between $50k and $68k, which is excellent considering the list prices were in the mid-50s new. God only knows what they actually sold for, but safe to say it was considerably more.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
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