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Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3045 times:
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Relax Washington, you can poseess up to an ounce without penalty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20621210

Good or bad thing? The long-term plan of selling and taxing, and allowing posession of moderate amounts seems pretty sensiblbe to me.

Also, is federal government going to come and ruin the party?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

I hope this is the beginning of the end to marijuana prohibition. And I hope the federal government stays out of it and let's Washington proceed with this experiment.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 1):
I hope this is the beginning of the end to marijuana prohibition. And I hope the federal government stays out of it and let's Washington proceed with this experiment.

I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Of course the donut shops will LOVE it. Look at all the business they do with cops, and now you have cops on munchies??? Cool!



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19509 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

I am really curious to know why Mr. Obama "clarified" (i.e. changed) his views on marijuana enforcement in the middle of his last term.

I have asked a friend of mine who works for him...and got no answer.

Is it that he saw the Twinkies shortage coming in advance and was afraid that marijuana legalization during a Hostess liquidation would lead to rioting?  

Seriously, it makes no sense. In fact, if there is one single issue that has started to gather broad bipartisan support, it's that the War on Drugs has failed and is a colossal waste of time, money, and resources. Pat Robertson even came out in favor of legalization. Now when Pat Robertson and Barney Frank can agree on an issue, it might just have some merit.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I have asked a friend of mine who works for him...and got no answer.

He probably forgot the question.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Wow! How many unsubstantiated stereotypes can you cram into one paragraph?

It has long been a myth that pot smokers are losers even though there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. I've worked in the legal industry for over twenty years and I can tell you a substantial number of high achieving, blue chip lawyers (read: partners) imbibe regularly. And of course, the meme that a large portion of the population is parasitic, living off the hard work of the salt-of-the-earth and moral man, has to be interjected.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8123 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs

This is simply not a universal claim for people who use it as a stress reducer, sleep aid, regular enhancement to lovemaking, or anything of the sort.

My dad is in his late 50s, is an senior VP of South Asia/SE Asia marketing for a global software giant, (also runs a data storage consultancy and medical imaging device distribution network throughout Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore), and uses marijuana almost daily. Many of his friends, the financier in HK, the rare earths sales VP in Australia, and on down the line have lifestyles that mirror his.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

That is such a bad stereotype. First you automatically assume that people who smoke pot are some kind of loser hippies who can barely work at a fast food restaurant flipping burgers. Almost all the people I know who smoke pot are not (they were when they were students maybe), all of them have good jobs, they perform very well at them and are better financially than your average American, you wouldn't be able to tell if you just met them. You also assume that legalization will automatically make everyone want to smoke pot. I got news for you, no matter where you are and whether it is illegal or not, if you want to get your hands on some pot it is as easy as getting chewing gum, just through illegal channels.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers.

They might just cash their welfare checks and call their dealer. But let's be fair to it and recognize that most of those people would be mostly useless anyway and being stoned might actually help keep them off the streets. Let's not pretend that everyone who smokes pot is a lazy stoner knocking back Doritos. Plenty of professionals and generally productive members of society use or have used drugs.

There's a lot of truth in the stoner stereotype. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that these people will see their IQ's jump by twenty points and suddenly become capable professionals with healthy work ethics. They'll just be lazy people without drugs. Nor will legalization of marijuana turn our society into one that consists principally of ushaven people playing Call of Duty and eating Funyuns rather than being busy at productive efforts.

Save law enforcement the effort of trying to stop a mostly meaningless and largely unstoppable crime which is for the most part completely malum prohibitum. Now if only we could take care of speeding too.

Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown and beware of homosexuals who may come to prey on you and corrupt you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Wouldn't matter one bit. I'm sure employees of Boeing and pretty much every other company are allowed to drink although being drunk at work is certainly frowned upon. I imagine that they will not take too kindly to having people high at work either.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9901 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2913 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Exactly the same as I feel now, considering that far more people likely smoke weed than you probably think. And with the majority of them, you wouldn't know it to talk to them, work with them, etc.

Frankly, I'd feel worse knowing that any engineer/assembler/whatever can go get sh*t-faced every night, and go to work hungover the next day.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown

Well, isn't it the blacks smoking the weed anyway?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Wouldn't matter one bit. I'm sure employees of Boeing and pretty much every other company are allowed to drink although being drunk at work is certainly frowned upon. I imagine that they will not take too kindly to having people high at work either.

Maybe, but I do have some experience in a couple of European countries where pot is legal or at least tolerated, and there were an awful lot of people, both in school and in their places of work who were basically buzzed all the time - smoking 5-10 joints per day, starting the first thing in the morning.

I know that there are a lot of studies that say that there are no lasting effects. But I have also personally seen some of these people literally fall apart before my eyes over a period of years - their speech is more slurred than it was a few years ago, their careers go nowhere (or they keep getting fired), and they just don't seem to give a shit. So I take these studies with a grain of salt. I've met my share of alcoholics as well, and they seem to be able to pass unnoticed much easier than the potheads.

That's my personal experience, and take that for whatever it's worth.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2876 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs,

I think people like this have a motivation and/or motivation problem rather than a marijuana problem. I know plenty of soft core marijuana users that are normal people. Though I think there have been studies that suggest smoking in your teens does have negative affects.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

I'm in favor of MJ decriminalization mostly due to the hypocrisy around its criminalization at the same time booze is legal by the gallon/case/pallet/truckload/etc and prescription drugs (a big money maker for Big Pharma) are widely abused.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers.

How does that differ from boozers or pillheads?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

How do you know they aren't weed smokers already?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
They might just cash their welfare checks and call their dealer.

There's packies (liquor stores) next to check cashing stores already, so it has nothing to do with MJ.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I know that there are a lot of studies that say that there are no lasting effects. But I have also personally seen some of these people literally fall apart before my eyes over a period of years - their speech is more slurred than it was a few years ago, their careers go nowhere (or they keep getting fired), and they just don't seem to give a shit.

Absent of a control group, this means squat. The same people could be in the same situation with or without pot, with or without booze, with or without prescription pills, etc.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown and beware of homosexuals who may come to prey on you and corrupt you.

Actually, I couldn't decide if he sounded more like Carrie Nation on a soapbox or Professor Harold Hill warning of the trouble to which the playing of pool can lead.

Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects, and it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed... thus turning a federal budget liability into a source of income for the government.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2800 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects

It's just ridiculous to think that productive people will put everything aside to become stoners should marijuana become legal or that a lazy person is that much more useful if they aren't high.

It's not like there aren't still hippies who retired, got jobs, and became mostly normal and productive people.

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed...

I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items. If you want to smoke, it's your business.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
It's not like there aren't still hippies who retired, got jobs, and became mostly normal and productive people.

Yeah, but they became Democrats. Evidence enough of brain damage...



Just a joke guys...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19509 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Maybe, but I do have some experience in a couple of European countries where pot is legal or at least tolerated, and there were an awful lot of people, both in school and in their places of work who were basically buzzed all the time - smoking 5-10 joints per day, starting the first thing in the morning.

Yup. Happens. Just like people who are a bit buzzed all the time on booze. They're called alcoholics.

We should ban alcohol.

Oh...wait...that worked about as well as banning pot.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items. If you want to smoke, it's your business.

Why not? Sin taxes are a great idea. First of all, anyone not wishing to pay the tax can simply not use cannabis. Second, it's a great source of revenue. Third, it discourages excessive use. I'm a strong proponent of sin taxes. I think they should be used on prostitution, gambling, tobacco, alcohol, etc.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
How do you know they aren't weed smokers already?

They're not. Boeing drug tests everyone from secretary to engineers on a regular basis. But I bet you a few people at Airbus like to smoke a joint every now and then. And I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable getting on an Airbus because someone in France might smoke a bit of hashish (that's what they smoke in Europe).

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects, and it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed... thus turning a federal budget liability into a source of income for the government.

I'm a bit of a civil libertarian. I believe that ALL drugs except antibiotics should be legal and available without prescription. Antibiotics can harm others by your use, so they should require a prescription. Otherwise, if you want to pop pills, inject pure heroin with a clean needle, snort cocaine, etc. then 1)You and you alone are responsible for the consequences of your actions while under the influence and 2) It's none of the government's business what you put in your body in your own home.

"But people might drive while high on heroin!" Yeah, they do that on alcohol, too. It won't be any different. Prosecute the hell out of behavior that endangers others, not behavior that only endangers yourself.

"But the costs to society..." ...of skiing are tremendous. Skiers routinely suffer disability (both temporary and permanent) and death from their "recreational activity." Their careless behavior of throwing themselves down the mountain places an undue burden on the healthcare system. Frankly, it should be banned. And the same goes for bike riding and football and...

"But my kids..." ...are your responsibility. My parents taught me about drugs and alcohol. You do the same with yours.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Obama has a chance to stand up and be a leader on this issue...
But of course during the election...there was really no dialogue of substance..

He can come out and least say he respects states' rights or something
There's got be some certainty because no one really knows what the feds will do



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Sin taxes are a great idea.

No they aren't. Either a given activity infringes on the rights of others in which case it should be regulated or banned, or it doesn't and it's none of the government's or anyone else's business whether or not I choose to do something and how often I do so. The simple truth is that if I'm not encroaching on anyone else's rights the government should not be passing judgement, whether it's jail time or taxes, on what I smoke, eat, drink, drive, etc.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11574 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs

Kinda like functioning alcoholics *cough*speakerofthehouse*cough*

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple truth is that if I'm not encroaching on anyone else's rights the government should not be passing judgement, whether it's jail time or taxes, on what I smoke, eat, drink, drive, etc.

The government, like any corporations (which is what the right-wing want the government to function as), finds a way to make money off the people. Taxes. Charge $8 a pack for tobacco cigarettes and have $7 of that go to the government as income. Just like any corporation, right? This, also, takes the criminal element out of it.

I don't smoke MJ. I have tried it and I don't like what it does to me. But, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is none of my business. If adults want to smoke weed, fine. I don't care. If they want to sign state issued contracts, fine. I don't care. These are things the right-wing *SAYS* they are for but, time and again, come out staunchly and squarely against!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
which is what the right-wing want the government to function as

That isn't true at all. Maximum efficiency is good, but the goal of government is not to make money. The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

Businesses seek to both minimize cost and maximize revenue and offer services based on that goal. The government needs to offer certain services, minimize the cost, and then only collect revenue to support that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
This, also, takes the criminal element out of it.

No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

I don't think so, we don't see bootleg tobacco (as far as I know.) We see moonshine a bit, and I've got no stats on me, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a fun thing to do/family tradition rather than a way to dodge taxes.

I'm against sin taxes, though, if we need to compromise or raise revenue some how, I think sin taxes would be the first thing I'd like to see enacted (before higher income tax, sales tax, etc.)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
They're not. Boeing drug tests everyone from secretary to engineers on a regular basis.

I didn't know that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
"But the costs to society..." ...of skiing are tremendous.

I know, it cost us Sunny Bono.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 17):
Obama has a chance to stand up and be a leader on this issue...

More like a target for the right.

Look how well his comments on same sex marriage went down in North Carolina.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

A great argument for the government becoming the "investor of last resort" in alternative energy. It's essential we reduce our defense spending by getting off imported oil as well as reducing our carbon footprint, but private industry just doesn't want to go there.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I don't think so, we don't see bootleg tobacco (as far as I know.) We see moonshine a bit, and I've got no stats on me, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a fun thing to do/family tradition rather than a way to dodge taxes.

I'm enjoying the Moonshiners series on cable tv, and there it's clear that these individuals do it as a full time job to provide income for their families, not as some sort of hobby. The penalties are too stiff to risk taking the chance of being caught if it's just a hobby. The lack of taxes is just one more element that helps make it a viable way to provide for your family.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
The long-term plan of selling and taxing, and allowing possession of moderate amounts seems pretty sensible to me.

Taxes...that is all it is about...yet they are now discussing cigarette smokers requiring a license to buy smokes...WTF?...talk about a Bass Ackwards government. Now I know what happened to all those that attended Woodstock...they work in D.C....(District of Cannabis").

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Yeah, but they became Democrats. Evidence enough of brain damage...

...got a light!


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
A great argument for the government becoming the "investor of last resort" in alternative energy.

If it isn't a good investment for any of the dozens of private equity, venture capital, or big energy firms then it probably isn't a good investment for public money.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
It's essential we reduce our defense spending by getting off imported oil as well as reducing our carbon footprint, but private industry just doesn't want to go there.

The industry will go there when the technology gets to the point that they can make money on it. Nobody is hiding super carburetors that will allow 100 MPG cars, it's just worth way too much.

I have no problem with the government trying to power their things via alternative means. Cover every government office in solar panels, it won't bother me, depending on what it costs. There's already some hybrid military vehicle prototypes running around. They should just keep their nose out of how I and the power company make and use energy.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
If it isn't a good investment for any of the dozens of private equity, venture capital, or big energy firms then it probably isn't a good investment for public money.

As you said, the goal isn't to make money, it's to reduce pollution, health care costs, defense costs, and so on.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
The industry will go there when the technology gets to the point that they can make money on it.

How do you get to that point (ever, or in a reasonable amount of time) if there is insufficient investment?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
As you said, the goal isn't to make money, it's to reduce pollution, health care costs, defense costs, and so on.

Energy is something that can quite easily and effectively be provided by private companies, whose goal is to make money. Energy isn't really a government problem except in the respects that they have to regulate providers to keep them from encroaching on the rights of others (inspecting reactors, etc.) and buying the energy they need to perform their duties.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
How do you get to that point (ever, or in a reasonable amount of time) if there is insufficient investment?

There is too much money to be made for people to not make that investment. They won't just throw money at any crazy idea, but when you see how much money is in the oil industry you can just imagine the payday for a company that can provide an alternative.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone at GM who thinks the Volt was a bad idea. But, if everyone is in agreement that it's a wonderful idea and that there is a surefire payoff at the end even if current models fall short, why the hell couldn't they build it with their own money?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Energy is something that can quite easily and effectively be provided by private companies, whose goal is to make money. Energy isn't really a government problem except in the respects that they have to regulate providers to keep them from encroaching on the rights of others (inspecting reactors, etc.) and buying the energy they need to perform their duties.

I would point out one important exception. The French power grid is a government monopoly under EDF (Electricite de France), and as everyone knows, they have a very successful nuclear program that supplies some 80% of the country's power needs from 60 nuclear plants.

Having all these plants under one roof allows a high degree of standardization - nearly all the plants are of very similar design. A person trained in one plant can pretty much go to any other and immediately be up and running. So you have a very rigorous and uniform training system on common designs that everyone knows - it's a little bit like the US Navy's nuclear sub engineering school - Commonality of design and training leads to high safety and efficiency.

In the US, pretty much every plant is a custom-built job, owned by different power companies. That drives up your cost per unit, and training cannot be standardized - but is more of a one-off, whenever you need to train someone approach. I think the French system is more effective and safer.

So while I agree with your broader point, I think there is a pretty good argument for a federally owned and operated nuclear power program, under the NEA, which would build, maintain and staff nuclear plants, and sell the power to local power companies at a competitive price.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 960 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Yup, first getting pot off of Schedule I. Next DOMA.....whoo hoo!! We Washingtonians are a progressive bunch. And sin taxes ARE a great idea. Kinda like PAYGO BMI......something has to pay for the infrastructure to treat folks of excessive drug use...just like alcoholism. Or would you rather having them on the public dole? Kinda goes against your sense of business you profess.


Carpe Pices
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I'm enjoying the Moonshiners series on cable tv, and there it's clear that these individuals do it as a full time job to provide income for their families, not as some sort of hobby. The penalties are too stiff to risk taking the chance of being caught if it's just a hobby. The lack of taxes is just one more element that helps make it a viable way to provide for your family.

Ah, did not know that. Know quite a few people who had moonshiners in their family, they just liked making it. Went to college in Dahlonega, GA, so that probably explains a few things lol.

I guess my underlying point is you don't see very much bootleg tobacco, even the moonshine operations aren't that vast, so I doubt sin taxes would create all this bootleg marijuana. Even with no sin taxes, I'm sure people would grow their own recreationally and sell some of it



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2634 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
And I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable getting on an Airbus because someone in France might smoke a bit of hashish (that's what they smoke in Europe).

Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.   



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.

Hash was predominant years ago, but pot started to get popular in the 90s, from what I saw.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Hash was predominant years ago, but pot started to get popular in the 90s, from what I saw.

That's broadly true, yes. Europe is of course a more traditional destination for hashish than the US, owing to its relative proximity to source areas such as North Africa, and established overland routes from the middle east. These days that is still the case, but there is a lot more weed being grown within Europe for consumption in the country of production and their neighbours, hence the growth in popularity you refer to. Hash also has the advantage for ne'er-do-well smuggler/trader that it is more easily doctored, with low-grade commodity pressed with anything from ground-up tyres and plastic to pretty much anything else you can think of. Yuck.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19509 posts, RR: 58
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

No more than they sell bootleg booze or tobacco. Even with huge taxes, the price will be far below what it is currently.

Besides, weed isn't "bootlegged." It's grown at home. You don't need to distill it. You grow it, trim it, dry it, and trim it again.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.

I've mostly *ahem* seen other people smoking hash in Europe. I have seen some weed there, but hash is the norm in the UK, Spain, and France. Weed is more prevalent in the Netherlands. I would imagine that France, with its huge Mideast population, would go for hashish. They usually grind it up and then roll it in a joint with tobacco.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2609 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
hash is the norm in the UK

To an extent, but seriously - far less dominant than it used to be. As I mentioned, mainly due to steady growth in local production.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Spain, and France

Definitely true in those states.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
I've mostly *ahem* seen other people smoking hash in Europe. I have seen some weed there, but hash is the norm in the UK, Spain, and France. Weed is more prevalent in the Netherlands. I would imagine that France, with its huge Mideast population, would go for hashish. They usually grind it up and then roll it in a joint with tobacco.

Hash is very popular in Spain, France and Italy. The Netherlands is kind of a mix. From my experience the UK was more of a weed country. Greece is also mixed but weed is the predominant form, there are a couple of home grown varieties mostly in Crete and Kalamata. Most Europeans mix with tobacco, whether it's weed or hash.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19509 posts, RR: 58
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 35):
Hash is very popular in Spain, France and Italy. The Netherlands is kind of a mix. From my experience the UK was more of a weed country. Greece is also mixed but weed is the predominant form, there are a couple of home grown varieties mostly in Crete and Kalamata. Most Europeans mix with tobacco, whether it's weed or hash.

I'm sure you'd know much better than I.     


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 9):
Frankly, I'd feel worse knowing that any engineer/assembler/whatever can go get sh*t-faced every night, and go to work hungover the next day.

This is why I support strict routine random drug testing at every workplace, regardless of industry.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items.

Why not? Taxing marijuana is a great idea. It is a revenue stream that the State and the Feds are LARGELY missing out on. And they know it! I voted YES on the Colorado law, the main reason was because the money is going to the school districts.

I don't understand what the Feds are afraid of by legalizing marijuana and taxing it. What are they really worried about??



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Quoting bhill (Reply 28):
And sin taxes ARE a great idea.

No they aren't. It's dumb for the government to decide that it's bad enough to be taxed, but not so bad to be banned. It's your life, smoke what you want.

Quoting bhill (Reply 28):
Or would you rather having them on the public dole?

Get rid of that too.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
Taxing marijuana is a great idea. It is a revenue stream that the State and the Feds are LARGELY missing out on.

The "we can tax it to make money" is possibly the worst argument for legalization. People should either be free to use it or not, rather than having the government pass judgement on how they live or make them pay because they disapprove of certain life choices.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):

Question for you: Do you like beer or other alcohol? Or do you smoke cigarettes?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
Do you like beer or other alcohol?

Somewhat. I tend to do enough dumb stuff without drinking.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
Or do you smoke cigarettes?

No.

However, I don't feel the need to stop people who avidly partake of both.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
It's dumb for the government to decide that it's bad enough to be taxed, but not so bad to be banned.

Believe it or not, the government is us, and it only rules with the support of the people. The ban is coming down because we the people realize it's a costly waste of resources.

We the people tax things that are both good and bad. We tax income, and in most people's mind income is a good thing. Many forms of consumption are taxed at various levels of government.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
However, I don't feel the need to stop people who avidly partake of both.

So why not MJ?

I think the WA rules make sense. One can have up to an ounce on them, which is a large amount for all non-Rastafarians. There still are penalties for smoking in public and for being under the influence. Win-win all around, says I...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
Somewhat

Well, guess what? Beer is taxed, too! Just sayin'.........

If beer is taxed by the government, then weed WILL be taxed as well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):

I agree with everything you said, and was very spot on!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11574 posts, RR: 15
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

Health care and food?

oh, wait... we have to let people live and die at the mercy of profit....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

There will always be *some* criminal element to it. Just like there are those who will forever live on welfare. However, most sane and reasonable people will purchase from legal and reputable establishments. That is what I see here and in Montana, where pot is prescribed. In CA, it is pretty simple to get a medical card and buy from liscenced shops. There are still those who choose to buy shake on the street. But, most sane and logical smokers I know go to clubs to buy.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
Health care and food?

oh, wait... we have to let people live and die at the mercy of profit....

Tell me, do you believe that at any point in people's lives they should be responsible for themselves? Or do you want a benevolent state to hold your hand and wipe your ass your whole life? Seriously I am starting to think that you are an unabashed hippy-commune kind of guy.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11574 posts, RR: 15
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Tell me

It is this whole post of yours that pisses me off about the whole right-wing. You all think like that. At least, the ones who only surround themselves with FOX and Rush and Drudge and nothing else. You all see nothing but what you are told do see and there is no convincing you otherwise. The only thing that goes on in the world is what your handlers tell you. Even when you all are shown how stupid you all are, you all agree that everyone else is stupid and you all are the smart ones.

To answer your question (and I am going to be told this is not how the world works because FOX/Rush/Drudge told you otherwise): People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice. That is how America is now. They can not afford private health care and private schools and have to ask the government for help. Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!! I know that goes against everything you are told to believe, but it is true. The next time you are at Wal-Mart buying your king sized bag of Cheese Doodles and 24 pack of soda, as you look down your nose at the unwashed masses at the check stand, ask them if they are on government assistance and if they want it or would rather have a good paying job so they don't need to be on government assistance. The answer will shock and amaze you. And you will still convince yourself that they are wrong and you are right.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Tell me, do you believe that at any point in people's lives they should be responsible for themselves? Or do you want a benevolent state to hold your hand and wipe your ass your whole life?

Couldn't the same argument be used to legalize marijuana?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice. That is how America is now. They can not afford private health care and private schools and have to ask the government for help. Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!!

I actually agree with you here, and this didn't really occur to me until a few months ago



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!!

That is not exactly true, and you know it. There are so many Americans on welfare that see checks coming in when they are not working, which tells them that they are getting free money and free food stamps and the like. I have a former "friend" who has a sister with that exact same mentality. She never leaves the house, except for when her favorite band is in town.

Now, I don't completely doubt you that people do not want to be on assistance, HOWEVER...... there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2443 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):

You're saying the same thing as Seb:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
a wide, huge, vast majority

majority =/= all, and this acknowledges that:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
Now, I don't completely doubt you that people do not want to be on assistance, HOWEVER...... there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.

Right, but we saw how Mitt and his Boca Raton buddies put the figure at 47%, and proceeded to use that figure to make themselves feel good about all the tax breaks and corporate welfare they receive.

The "Santa Claus giving things away" and the "makers versus the takers" arguments are key tenants of the right wing, yet most data and most people's day to day experience does not jive with that, which is yet another reason why their man Mitt is pumping his own gas these days.

Having said that, I'm not in favor of unemployment payments ad-infinitum. I agreed we needed an extension after the shock of the GFC of 2008, but we're in 2012 now, the transient has been dampened, and we can't keep paying able-bodied workers to not work for extended periods of time.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 49):
The "Santa Claus giving things away" and the "makers versus the takers" arguments are key tenants of the right wing, yet most data and most people's day to day experience does not jive with that, which is yet another reason why their man Mitt is pumping his own gas these days.

But it is true!!!!! People who are on assistance actually DO NOT WANT to get off their asses and do something productive with their lives as long as the free money and free food stamps are still coming in. When the government sends someone free money, that person expects more of it to come removing the motivation to do actual production in their lives in order to get OFF of it.

Take me, for example. I used to live on assistance for a few years. I am no longer on it thankfully. I knew for a fact that the assistance was not going to be forever and the government would cut me off at some point. So what I did was went back to school, got an education and got a job. I never looked back. More freedom for me than ever before and much much less stress.

But again, there are still many people out there that think the government is God, and the money keeps flowing in and will never stop, hence the reason why those people think they don't have to contribute to society.

Edit add: By the way, what does this have to do with the thread topic at hand anyway???????????  confused 

[Edited 2012-12-08 11:13:07]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers.

I'm sure they'd rather have that life than being in jail being the slave of a prison corporation...



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
It is this whole post of yours that pisses me off about the whole right-wing. You all think like that.

You are the one who popped up and said (or at least strongly implied) that the essential services to be provided by government include healthcare and food - and presumable housing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice.

YES THEY DO!

Let me tell you a little about myself. I am, by nature, a lazy bum. I'm not one of those Gordon Ramsey type people who is full of energy and bounces out of bed every morning and can't stand still. I will happily melt into a couch with a laptop playing World Of Tanks while watching Star Trek reruns with a bowl of Cheetos next to me, for the whole day, day after day. For months on end.

That's my nature. I was like that as a child as well - my family had to crack the whip on me a LOT (for which I am greatful). My first year at University I nearly flunked out because I was lazy and nobody was there to crack the whip. I had to learn to motivate myself without help, because I was afraid of having to dig ditches, clear brush, and grind stumps for a living (all of which I had jobs doing as a kid - at my dad's insistence - for which I am also grateful for now). To this day I have to force myself to get off the damned couch, get to work, be interested in the issues that we have to deal with. That is the choice I make. I have to make it every day in the morning when the alarm goes off and I choose to get up and start making myself useful rather than turning off the alarm and going back to sleep. I am ashamed to say that it is still a tough decision for me, every single day.

6 years ago, I was unemployed. I went from being a senior director at a multinational to applying for jobs as a retail sales associate at Best Buy and HH Gregg. I applied for minimum wage jobs at Kroger. I cleaned gutters all through my neighborhood. But now because of the choices I keep making every day, I have a daughter who is turning out to be a truly wonderful, gifted and generous person, now starting a family of her own, a loving (if sometimes a little batty) wife, a nice house, a salary well into 6 figures and relative comfort. But every day, that couch calls out to me...

We all have a choice. It's not easy.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 50):
But it is true!!!!! People who are on assistance actually DO NOT WANT to get off their asses and do something productive with their lives as long as the free money and free food stamps are still coming in.


Re: OT: it's normal thread drift. One benefit of MJ legalization is the ability to tax it, thus the topic turned to what should and should not be taxed, and then what services should or should not be provided by the government.

Re: not wanting to "get off their asses": this does not jive with what I see, and the right wing continues to make it a central theme whilst ignoring all forms of corporate greed, which aids their own current and future demise. While assistance to the poor is not all that popular, assistance to the rich and to the corporations is far less popular, and no one believes in trickle down economics at all. We had the Bush tax cuts for around a decade now, and they haven't lead to any massive economic upsurge that I'm aware of.

Re: MJ: Massachusetts recently decriminalized MJ for similar sized amounts. This caused a lot less consternation from the social conservatives, but also does not bring along with it any increased revenues. Time will tell if this is the right approach or not. In the mean time, MA is cashing in on sins by licensing three large-scale casinos. This will be putting a mean hurt onto the Indian casinos in CT, and IMHO such gambling will ruin more lives than legalized MJ.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 53):
Re: not wanting to "get off their asses": this does not jive with what I see

Well, you need to remove the wool from your eyes. Dreadnaught and I just gave an example of each of how this is actually happening in our society today. People just don't want to get off of assistance, it is a fact. As long as the money flows into their bank accounts from the government, those poor folks will not do anything to better themselves in society. It is a fact whether or not you like it. It is not some "right wing propaganda" as you put it. It is ACTUALLY happening!

If this something that does not "jive" with what you see, then you have a denial problem it seems. I hope I am not correct in that assumption.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54):
Dreadnaught and I just gave an example of each of how this is actually happening in our society today.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, I'm just saying I feel it isn't the central/core issue some people and/or groups make it out to be.

In particular, it's an ages old practice to keep one group of relatively poor people focused on those poorer than they are, so the rich can get away with all kinds of misdeeds. IMHO this is exactly how the GOP operates.

To me, I feel taking money away from poor people isn't going to change anything. To me, I see the tiny percentage most corporations pay in tax (my own employer included) and the ridiculous amount corporate executives make relative to workers (my employer's corporation included) and feel a small adjustment in these areas will go a LONG way. You might want to read about the corporate tax holiday idea being floated from time to time knowing that the reason there is so much money sitting offshore is because large modern corporations excel at using off-shore tax havens to avoid US tax.

As was already said, most of the programs for the poor being referring to are time limited, much more than they used to be, with the main exception of unemployment, which as I've said above I am in favor of limiting.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54):
If this something that does not "jive" with what you see, then you have a denial problem it seems. I hope I am not correct in that assumption.

Seeing that you have not replied to any of my points regarding taxation of the wealthy and of corporations I could start to wonder if you are in denial as well, but similarly, I hope this would not be the case.

I am truly in favor of a balanced approach to taxes and spending. I'll also say the current administration offer is not balanced, but it is opening offer, and it is quite detailed as opposed to the GOP counter-offer, which is as thin as tissue paper. I hope genuine negotiation occurs, but it seems the GOP is willing to go down in flames over Grover Norquist (sp) and take the economy down with them.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Seeing that you have not replied to any of my points regarding taxation of the wealthy and of corporations

They need to be taxed higher, I agree. They need to be taxed a fair share. But then again, what is actually "fair share"? Everyone has their own opinions on how much "fair share" is.

But this, again, is off topic. The topic again is how weed is now legalized, on the State level, in WA and CO. Lets try to stick to that, shall we??



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2397 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56):
They need to be taxed higher, I agree. They need to be taxed a fair share. But then again, what is actually "fair share"? Everyone has their own opinions on how much "fair share" is.

You can actually be pretty objective about it..

http://www.american.com/graphics/2012/CONOVER_FLIP%20FLOP.jpg



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 57):
You can actually be pretty objective about it..

It'd actually be more objective if the X axis was income percentile and Y was taxes paid percentile, IMHO.

And it'd be more objective to include all taxes paid, not just federal income taxes.

And it's not clear if the chart includes just people who have incomes and are of working age, or if it includes infants/elderly etc.

Counting those who are expected to have zero income certainly would destroy objectivity, and is one thing that leads to the infamous 47% number that Romney was so attached to.

It's been an objective for many years to get the poorest off the tax roles entirely, and that goal has been moved forward by both parties, including the members of the much despised Bush administration.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
Believe it or not, the government is us,

So I should forget all of the people whining that the government is the wealthy?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):
it only rules with the support of the people.

It should only rule what it needs to rule. If only one man in the entire country likes striped shirts, that does not in any way make it okay for the government to ban striped shirts.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):
Well, guess what? Beer is taxed, too! Just sayin'.........

Yes it is. But the tax should be the same whether you are buying bottled water, Red Bull, a beer, or vodka.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
Health care and food?

Your life, your responsibility.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!!

That's a wonderful sentiment, but that does not in any way make it cheaper for the people who actually have to pay those bills.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
The next time you are at Wal-Mart buying your king sized bag of Cheese Doodles and 24 pack of soda, as you look down your nose at the unwashed masses at the check stand, ask them if they are on government assistance and if they want it or would rather have a good paying job so they don't need to be on government assistance.

There was also the time when the lady in front of me and the cashier spent a minute or two comparing their collections of Louis Vuitton and Chanel purses.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
You might want to read about the corporate tax holiday idea being floated from time to time knowing that the reason there is so much money sitting offshore is because large modern corporations excel at using off-shore tax havens to avoid US tax.

That should be a wake up call to the American government to whip our tax code into shape to actually be competitive.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
It's been an objective for many years to get the poorest off the tax roles entirely,

That is a bad goal. FairTax would allow people to be off of the tax rolls, but the idea that the poor should not pay taxes is generally ridiculous.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
It'd actually be more objective if the X axis was income percentile and Y was taxes paid percentile, IMHO.

That information is included, for the 10th and 50th percentiles.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
It's been an objective for many years to get the poorest off the tax roles entirely, and that goal has been moved forward by both parties, including the members of the much despised Bush administration.

Which I have said for years here was probably Bush's biggest ever mistake, economically. In my opinion anyone who does not pay taxes should not have a vote.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 58):
And it'd be more objective to include all taxes paid, not just federal income taxes.

Ah, you are going throw in sales taxes, property taxes etc. They are irrelevant. We are talking about federal taxes, and the services provided by the federal government they are supposed to pay for.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
That should be a wake up call to the American government to whip our tax code into shape to actually be competitive.

Competitive with who? Seems one well known corporate entity assigns the royalties from its inventions all around the world to that hot bed of innovation, Luxemburg, and whines that it can't import the resulting cash flow tax free into the US.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
FairTax would allow people to be off of the tax rolls, but the idea that the poor should not pay taxes is generally ridiculous.

FairTax is generally ridiculous, because it presumes 23% of a small amount of money is as meaningful as 23% of a large amount of money.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
That information is included, for the 10th and 50th percentiles.

Right, but how come not for every percentile? The x axis is for time, which is an interesting thing to some degree, but not if you are trying to determine objectivity.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
Ah, you are going throw in sales taxes, property taxes etc. They are irrelevant. We are talking about federal taxes, and the services provided by the federal government they are supposed to pay for.

At the least it should include all federal taxes, not just income tax.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
Which I have said for years here was probably Bush's biggest ever mistake, economically. In my opinion anyone who does not pay taxes should not have a vote.

Lower and middle class people cannot want to raise taxes on the rich while holding down their own and then in the next breath complain about all the influence the 1% has. It doesn't matter of something is actually for sale or not: if you bankroll it, you own it. If the 99% want to have more influence in government they need to get it the old fashioned way: buy it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
Competitive with who?

All of the countries where money is flowing instead of America.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 61):
FairTax is generally ridiculous, because it presumes 23% of a small amount of money is as meaningful as 23% of a large amount of money.

Not really with the prebate scheme. All spending up to poverty level is tax free.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11574 posts, RR: 15
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Your life, your responsibility.

And when we try to be responsible only to be told we have to pay an extra $2000 a month for a pre-existing condition, why is that our fault?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
That's a wonderful sentiment, but that does not in any way make it cheaper for the people who actually have to pay those bills.

Keep in mind that we are the ones paying that bill.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
There was also the time when the lady in front of me and the cashier spent a minute or two comparing their collections of Louis Vuitton and Chanel purses.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
There are so many Americans on welfare that see checks coming in when they are not working, which tells them that they are getting free money and free food stamps and the like.

As I have said so many times and the right-wingers love to ignore: there are those who are willing to spend their whole lives living soley on government assistance. We get it. Freeloaders do exist. Kinda like Exxon not ever wanting to get rid of their entitlements. That alone would save the government billions every year. But, no. Those entitlements to keep one company even more profitable than they already are can not ever be axed. No. What we need to do is get rid of food stamps and Medi-cade for those who need it for only a short time. Because the starvation of millions makes much more sense.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54):
People just don't want to get off of assistance, it is a fact.

Prove it.

Until then, all of yours and Dreadnought's rants about how lazy people are is nothing more than recycled, made up FOX News bullshit.

Actually, I got this:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 52):
To this day I have to force myself to get off the damned couch, get to work, be interested in the issues that we have to deal with. That is the choice I make. I have to make it every day in the morning when the alarm goes off and I choose to get up and start making myself useful rather than turning off the alarm and going back to sleep. I am ashamed to say that it is still a tough decision for me, every single day.

Even your debate partner admits that while he is "lazy", the fact is that he does not want to be on any kind of "assistance".



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinejet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2329 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years

Most likely:
- another 10 states, more red than blue, will have accepted 'medical' marijuana
- another 5 or so states beyond Colorado and Washington, probably all blue, will have legalized and not simply decriminalized recreational canabis
- the Federal government, run by politicains who want to protect their political hides and keep getting elected, will see there is no longer much benefit in waving the War On Drugs banner at everything
- Washington, Colorado, and other states will be enjoying additional tax revenue
- by then, a small number of other probably smaller and more independent thinking countries, no longer fearing reprisal from the U.S., will enact national legalization
- marijuana will be 1 to 2 generations away from being perceived more or less the same as alcohol


Times change and the world moves on. Let's see.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7118 posts, RR: 8
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 5):
I can tell you a substantial number of high achieving, blue chip lawyers (read: partners) imbibe regularly.

Yes I'm sure that is true, but tell me, how many of them actually work in the courts on a daily basis, review legal documents, make detail decisions on a daily basis, they are now senior management who make future decisions which take time, enough time for them to calm down and see things rationallyor put it another way, based on the effects of MJ, do you want your train driver hitting a joint before he start his shif or after?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?


How do you know they aren't weed smokers already?

We can be sure that they have a lot of alcohol abusers after all, if not at their parties in the bars et.al surrounding the factories. Remind us the number of persons who are killed by drunk drivers on a daily basis versus persons falling down requiring assistance from MJ smoking.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

Is this like the current debate on rich people avoiding taxes because they are too high?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
In the US, pretty much every plant is a custom-built job, owned by different power companies. That drives up your cost per unit, and training cannot be standardized - but is more of a one-off, whenever you need to train someone approach. I think the French system is more effective and safer.

I disagree, to me that is a failure of the NRC and getting into bed making private deals with OEM's. The NRC can mandate commonality in reactors, they actually have to approve each and every design including safety and monitorng features, so no, I do not believe that one must own the power plants to ensure that there is a set standard.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice. That is how America is now. They can not afford private health care and private schools and have to ask the government for help.

How about an alternative view, has it occured to anyone that this is what those in government and their backers want, the more the population is dependant on the government the more you can control and shape your society, is this not something that many USA politicians envied the European systems for, where they do not have a constitution which still empowers the individual and the local states?
Look at the current security situation since 9/11, the various alerts and national colour codes, when they raise the alert level the nation jumps, when they yell security freeze at airports the people freeze, there has to be some influential people in government who like this power and would do "things" to get and maintain this control.
Just another point of view.


User currently offlineHywel From Uganda, joined Apr 2008, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2267 times:



User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
if you bankroll it, you own it. If the 99% want to have more influence in government they need to get it the old fashioned way: buy it.

Strange how you are all about the Constitution, up to but not including the idea of the representative form of government it describes. Total hypocrisy, says I.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
All of the countries where money is flowing instead of America.

A lot of money flows into the US (still more than any other nation), mostly because we do achieve an excellent balance of individual rights vs collective rights and maintain a high level of creativity and expression. More people vote with their feet and try to emigrate into the US than let's say China. Notedly that includes yourself, who seems to value the type of wealth = power and might = right society that exists in China and that you keep saying you want, but you keep refusing to go join, even though you are right out of college and have no job/career keeping you here.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
As I have said so many times and the right-wingers love to ignore: there are those who are willing to spend their whole lives living soley on government assistance. We get it. Freeloaders do exist. Kinda like Exxon not ever wanting to get rid of their entitlements. That alone would save the government billions every year. But, no. Those entitlements to keep one company even more profitable than they already are can not ever be axed. No. What we need to do is get rid of food stamps and Medi-cade for those who need it for only a short time. Because the starvation of millions makes much more sense.

  

It's just not the prime issue that some make it out to be, either overtly or covertly.

Even above I was accused of being in denial because I made this kind of point (the kind you are making) because I didn't just accept it was a major problem because two a.net members knew two freeloaders.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 65):
Until then, all of yours and Dreadnought's rants about how lazy people are is nothing more than recycled, made up FOX News bullshit.

Indeed, and it'll probably never stop, it's the time honored trick of getting one class of people to blame their problems on a more disadvantaged class of people while the truly advantaged continue to stuff their pockets.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
Indeed, and it'll probably never stop, it's the time honored trick of getting one class of people to blame their problems on a more disadvantaged class of people while the truly advantaged continue to stuff their pockets.

Wow. Coming from the side that makes class warfare the pivital core of their movement, the chutzpah in this statement is unbelievable.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15729 posts, RR: 26
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Keep in mind that we are the ones paying that bill.

It's not us though. The wealthy are the ones paying that bill.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
Strange how you are all about the Constitution, up to but not including the idea of the representative form of government it describes.

There's the reality that money buys things. I raised the point before, but it bears repeating: do you think that big donors like Phil Knight own the Oregon Ducks or Boone Pickens owns the Oklahoma State Cowboys any less than Jerry Jones owns the Dallas Cowboys. Their name won't be on any stock certificates, but they are the big power players and what they say has a ton of influence.

So if we, the 99%, are really that fed up about having a government that seemingly is by the rich and for the rich, we should all be clamoring to pay more in taxes. As it is, the government is bankrolled by the wealthy and they accordingly get more influence. And I'd be hard pressed to say that it isn't fair that those who pay the most get the most influence. If you want to charge me 35% marginal tax rates plus tax all my capital gains at the same rate then you better do what I say.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
A lot of money flows into the US (still more than any other nation), mostly because we do achieve an excellent balance of individual rights vs collective rights and maintain a high level of creativity and expression.

There are no collective rights. Individual rights end where they will encroach on someone else's individual rights.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
Notedly that includes yourself, who seems to value the type of wealth = power and might = right society that exists in China and that you keep saying you want, but you keep refusing to go join, even though you are right out of college and have no job/career keeping you here.

If I got an offer from a Chinese company I would have to seriously consider it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7873 posts, RR: 52
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 67):
Yes I'm sure that is true, but tell me, how many of them actually work in the courts on a daily basis, review legal documents, make detail decisions on a daily basis, they are now senior management who make future decisions which take time, enough time for them to calm down and see things rationallyor put it another way, based on the effects of MJ, do you want your train driver hitting a joint before he start his shif or after?

Most people function just fine with alcohol, do you see your train driver drinking a bunch of vodka before his shift? I can see why some people want marijuana banned, but I cannot for the life of me see how they can be fine with alcohol but against marijuana. Makes absolutely no sense



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7118 posts, RR: 8
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 72):
but I cannot for the life of me see how they can be fine with alcohol but against marijuana. Makes absolutely no sense

  


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2208 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 70):

Wow. Coming from the side that makes class warfare the pivital core of their movement, the chutzpah in this statement is unbelievable.

Despite what conservative outlets tell you, I think you stepped back and looked at it you'd find the GOP is the true class warrior party. Mitt Romney's infamous 47% comment is just the most prominent example of this. Their current posture of fighting to retain tax breaks for the top two brackets while raising the age for Medicare makes it crystal clear. Chutzpah indeed!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 71):

If I got an offer from a Chinese company I would have to seriously consider it.

Well at least you are consistent - it's all about the money for you, and all these statements you make about how government and society should work are just that, statements. Of course, if you believed in your statements you'd be doing your darndest to get over to China, that heaven for social darwinists like yourself.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 74):
Despite what conservative outlets tell you, I think you stepped back and looked at it you'd find the GOP is the true class warrior party. Mitt Romney's infamous 47% comment is just the most prominent example of this.

Aaaaaand, the whole Occupy movement and talk of the 99% vs the 1% isn't? Which came first?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 74):
Their current posture of fighting to retain tax breaks for the top two brackets while raising the age for Medicare makes it crystal clear. Chutzpah indeed!

I have never stated that I support those policies. For the record, support the latter, and want ALL tax brackets to return to Clinto levels - not just for the wealthy but everyone. I have stated that policy repeatedly.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 75):
Aaaaaand, the whole Occupy movement and talk of the 99% vs the 1% isn't? Which came first?

The fact that GOP are class warriors goes back decades if not centuries. Reagan's trickle down economics, Hoover's entire approach that directly lead to the Great Depression, etc.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 75):
I have never stated that I support those policies.

Right, but it's clear that the current GOP is all about class war.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 76):
The fact that GOP are class warriors goes back decades if not centuries. Reagan's trickle down economics, Hoover's entire approach that directly lead to the Great Depression, etc.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 76):
Right, but it's clear that the current GOP is all about class war.

I could write a book in response, but I won't bother. How do you fight against decades of misinformation and ignorance of philosophy and history?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 77):
I could write a book in response, but I won't bother.

If your book states that class war only applies when the poor rally against the rich, don't bother...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 77):
How do you fight against decades of misinformation and ignorance of philosophy and history?

Hope and pray that FOX NEWS shuts down?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5592 posts, RR: 6
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 75):
Aaaaaand, the whole Occupy movement and talk of the 99% vs the 1% isn't? Which came first?

The only difference between the Occutards and the GOP supporters is the percentage of people that they think are freeloaders. The GOP supporters believe anywhere from 47% (Mitt Romney) to 51% (the percentage that voted for Obama) are; Occutards think that 99% are.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 77):
How do you fight against decades of misinformation and ignorance of philosophy and history?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 78):

Hope and pray that FOX NEWS shuts down?

Set 'em up, knock 'em down. 



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
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