BARTLESVILLE — An 18-year-old Bartlesville High School student was arrested early Friday after police uncovered an alleged school-shooting massacre plot.
Sammie Eaglebear Chavez attempted to recruit students in the school cafeteria on Wednesday to help him carry out a massive school shooting and bombing plot, police allege in a court affidavit.
“He also told them that if the students assisting him did not do what they were supposed to do, he would not hesitate to kill them and/or himself.”
Glad the police got him before he pulled this stunt. I just don't get what is going on in these peoples minds ...
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4954 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2699 times:
Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter): Glad the police got him before he pulled this stunt. I just don't get what is going on in these peoples minds ...
This can easily be discussed in the other CT thread: It's a problem with our society. We need to figure out how to stop these kids from entering this mindset in the first place! It's a huge mental health issue!
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5297 posts, RR: 47 Reply 2, posted (5 months 6 days ago) and read 2634 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1): We need to figure out how to stop these kids from entering this mindset in the first place! It's a huge mental health issue!
How do we do that? I'm sure most of these shooters, when asked questions, aren't gonna respond with obviously crazy answers. I wouldn't be surprised that if, given a psychological evaluation, he'd pass. Without being able to read people's minds, I don't think this behavior is so easily spotted...
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16814 posts, RR: 57 Reply 3, posted (5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2538 times:
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1): This can easily be discussed in the other CT thread: It's a problem with our society. We need to figure out how to stop these kids from entering this mindset in the first place! It's a huge mental health issue!
No, it is not a "problem with society." It is a problem with mental healthcare specifically. There are people born with bad hearts and bad lungs...and bad brains. The fact that accessing mental healthcare for a vast majority of Americans is difficult to impossible is unacceptable.
We need the state-run asylums opened back up. We need better funding for mental healthcare. It's not about "healthcare law," it's about public safety. Believe me, I work in a county where a kid (my 10yo patient) who chased his mother with a kitchen knife was turned away by the only mental health institution they had to (the County's) because he wasn't "acutely homicidal." Do you think that kid just needs a better society? Better parents? His two siblings are just fine with the same parents. No, this kid tried to torture the family cat when he was three. His brain is bad. No amount of "society" is going to fix it. He's going to be the next gunman if he doesn't get mental healthcare.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4954 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2532 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): We need the state-run asylums opened back up. We need better funding for mental healthcare. It's not about "healthcare law," it's about public safety.
This sounds like a good plan....why were they shut down in the first place?
In Hamilton County, Ohio, the county's division of the state board of developmental disabilities (which oversees at-risk youth as well) is where my mom works, and she stated that the Lanza questions could have easily been answered if a full, diagnostic psychiatric test was done on the child before he reached 18...
IMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6201 posts, RR: 43 Reply 6, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2501 times:
When I was in high school the solution was simple, you got your ass whipped for being a drama queen if you tried this crap. Quit treating children with kid gloves and they'll straighten up.
What is it with all the "is there a possibilty airline X will.." threads? The answer it'll is possible.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12559 posts, RR: 64 Reply 7, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2499 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5): Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):This sounds like a good plan....why were they shut down in the first place?
Because Ronald Reagan. Seriously, that was one of his plans to reduce the deficit.
So if this is true, why hadn't the Clinton or Obama Administration do anything to reverse it? It's not like either president didn't/doesn't have the opportunity and the means to make it happen.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7442 posts, RR: 5 Reply 8, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2492 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3): It is a problem with mental healthcare specifically.
And, in honor of that health care defect, Oklahoma's dumb broad of a Governor has signed an Open Carry Law. The whole state can be the OK Corral now.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5): Because Ronald Reagan. Seriously, that was one of his plans to reduce the deficit.
ANd that is a critical reason why we won't spend the money - the GOP would block any effort to increase government funding for any type of health care.
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 6): When I was in high school the solution was simple, you got your ass whipped for being a drama queen if you tried this crap.
Now the kid comes mack to you with a gun and no hesitation to use it. It is the (now) American Tradition called Nuts With Guns In Schools.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 9, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
I think the problem is that in most civilised countries people cannot be confined forcibly into a closed mental institution unless they are clearly a danger to others or to themselves.
To avoid civil rights issues there are very strict limits. Effectively you can only lock up a nutter against his will if he already HAS committed a violent act, in case of being a danger to himself, has tried to commit suicide.
Berlin has a lot of homeless, even though we have a pretty tight social services network, which will provide support. But many of the homeless have mental issues (or are drug addicts) and are not willing to go for treatment. On the other hand the government can´t force them to undergo treatment against their will, so they stay in the streets.
Similarly a dangerous nutter might superficialy appear to be fully functional in society until he cracks and starts killing people. Sometimes you´ll notice somebody with a sadistic abnormality, e.g. if they are noted for torturing animals or act as violent bullies as kids.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
Or we could just get rid of all the guns and none of it would matter anyways. We would save a ton of money on those disgustingly abusive mental health hospitals too!
Sorry, I had to throw it out there before someone seriously proposed it.
TheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 7 Reply 11, posted (5 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2454 times:
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 6): When I was in high school the solution was simple, you got your ass whipped for being a drama queen if you tried this crap. Quit treating children with kid gloves and they'll straighten up.
Yeah that's true, but not anymore.
I bet you've got more chance of introducing universal health care, before school discipline is an issue again. Too bad.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9): To avoid civil rights issues there are very strict limits.
Quite agree MD11
Of course, trying to lock someone up is not easy, especially if no crime has been committed as you have said, however I believe its more complicated than we can imagine, when you take the US political system into account ?
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10): Or we could just get rid of all the guns and none of it would matter anyways.
You said it, the sooner the better !
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10): We would save a ton of money on those disgustingly abusive mental health hospitals too!
I doubt that, Mental hospitals are still needed and should be reserved for the NRA members ONLY.
Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16814 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2386 times:
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7): So if this is true, why hadn't the Clinton or Obama Administration do anything to reverse it? It's not like either president didn't/doesn't have the opportunity and the means to make it happen.
Really? They haven't had the opportunity or means? Can you just imagine what the GOP would do if Mr. Obama tried to put this in the federal budget? Can you imagine what Mr. Clinton's GOP Congress could have done?
From my perspective as an American, no it doesn't. I almost never see homeless people in Western European countries. There are some, but they are very rare by our standard.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12559 posts, RR: 64 Reply 14, posted (5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2306 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13): Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 7):So if this is true, why hadn't the Clinton or Obama Administration do anything to reverse it? It's not like either president didn't/doesn't have the opportunity and the means to make it happen.
Really? They haven't had the opportunity or means? Can you just imagine what the GOP would do if Mr. Obama tried to put this in the federal budget?
Are you kidding me? They managed to ramrod Obamacare through despite the majority of the public being against it, yet you seriously believe they'd somehow have insurmountable opposition to funding mental heathcare now, AFTER this horrible event that expanded mental healthcare could possibly have prevented?
Stop. Just stop.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 17, posted (5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2254 times:
I would say that abnormally thinking people are the problem nowadays, who think that killing solves problems. The gun issue is just the symptoms. E.g. a few years ago a teenage girl in Germany brought a hatchet, a selfbuilt flame thrower and several inciendaries (molotov cocktails) to school to carry out a massacre. She was surprised by another girl while she was preparing herself for the attack in the girl´s toilet and attacked this girl with the hatchet, wounding her severely. Still the attacked girl managed to shout for help and the attacker got subdued before she could light her flamethrower.
The reason why she wanted to burn her schoolmates and teachers was because she felt slighted.
No guns involved.
I would even go so far that many of those "Islamists" who tried to set up bombs in public places over here (just one failed to explode in a busy railway station last week), are doing it mostly because of what they feel to be a history of personal insults, just covered up by Islamist ideology (They insult me because I´m a Muslim, not because maybe I´m a jerk).
Again no guns involved, but bombs built from readily available materials.
Guns over here are more the exception due to our gun laws.
As for guns, I´m sitting on the fence.
I like shooting... at cardboard and metal targets (metal plates that fall over when hit). It is good fun and with a bit of practice I could probably get quite good at it. The practice is difficult in Germany because of the legal hoops the gun laws require to get one and because I´m more a solitary person and not a club person, but the law would require me to join a gun club to get supervision by my peers (who in theory should notice if I go off track and alert the authorities).
I did some pistol shoooting on a shooting range during my vacation in the Philippines using my brother-in-law´s (he is a police officer over there) 9mm pistol.
But I don´t get the whole killing issue. Killing is terminal. You can´t unkill somebody or even an animal.
I probably could kill if absolutely necessary to gain food or in defence of myself or others against an armed attacker, but I know if I would kill a person, no matter how justified the reason, I would probably have nightmares for the rest of my life. As for food, as most citizens of industrialised countries, I outcontract the killing necessary for food to somebody else, a professional butcher, and buy the meat in the supermarket.
I think I could hunt, this means killing an animal with which I had no personal contact (once it is dead and it has to be cut up and butchered, it is just meat, yucky in some aspects, but still just meat), but I know that I can´t kill an animal I have a personal realtionship with, e.g. a fram animal which I have raised and fed and which knows me and is trusting me.
I think that most people are like me and have that natural aversion against killing or hurting other humans. Even most soldiers have it, even though they will kill (and risk being killed) as part nof their profession, but they will not enjoy it (actually I noticed that many professional soldiers are among the most pacifist people I know, probably because in a war they´ll be at the sharp end of it).
The problem are those who consider killing to be a normal way to solve problems and who even enjoy maiming or killing people.
I think the current movies and, some don´t like to hear it, violent computer games, play a big role.
As for movies (I´m speaking especially of Hollywood), in the old days the villain was definitely bad and at the end got led away in handcuffs by the brave coppers to face sentencing in the normal course of justice (he might face the gallows, but only after a trial). Today often the hero of the movies is either a cool gangster type (the villain becomes the hero) or the non-gangster hero takes the law in his own hands and at the end kills the villain without police or a court being involved. The message here is if somebody does you injustice you can take the law into your own hands and kill the perpetrator.
The other thing are those violent ego shooter computer games. Most people who play them are sane enough to understand the difference between the computer game and reality. A few though get conditioned to become more violent, especially if they already have a sadistic streak, which just needs a justification to be acted out.
I definitely wouldn´t want to have such a person get his hands of ANYTHING which can be used as a weapon.
Now we come to the next problem, at least in democratic societies, where civil rights are being upheld:
Sometimes people with sadistic urges get noticed early on, but often not acted upon. The example would be the child who tortures and kills pets and acts violent against other children obviously enjoying handing out pain.
But in most cases this only gets noted in retrospect: A person committs a massacre and only later people come out of the woodwork to tell that they knew thius person already since many years and that he has a history of violence.
How can you treat people who show a latency for becoming potential mass killers? How can you sort them out and get them into treatment BEFORE they become a danger to society?
DocLightning is correct, there are people born who have bad brains. They might function for while somehow in society, but something might be the trigger and they act out their urges, becoming a danger (not just in fullscale massacres, but also like the guy in Belgium who kidnapped teenage girls from the street and kept them as slaves for sadistic practices in his basement).
MEL, as for India, while it is not possible to buy a factory made gun in a gunshop that easily, I´m quite sure that there are plenty of illegally made guns around. I have seen quite a few of them in newspaper pictures and on the news. In the Philippines they have their "Paltik", illegally made guns, which might be of varying quality, ranging from crude, suicidical, contraptions made out of gas pipe to high quality handmade copies of factory made guns. AFAIK, the Japanese mafia (guns are severely restricted in Japan) get theirs mainly from such illegal sources in the Philippines.
CometII From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 291 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
The gun issue is not complicated at all to me.
a) Citizens have the right to bear arms.
b) Citizens have the right to self-defense to protect their lives and livelyhood (that includes against government).
c) Citizens DO NOT have the right to possess weapons of mass destruction.
I think that is how things should be defined.
I think almost everyone agrees the 2nd Amendment does not give me the right to possess or use nuclear weapons. If that is the case, then we are already admitting limitations DO exist on the 2nd, so that point becomes moot.
At the point the question becomes "where is the limitation line". I think the line should be drawn at the points weapons can kill multiple amounts of people within 60-90 seconds. That is where the fight will be, but clearly, assault rifles that can unload 30 rounds in 45 second with some training, is a weapon of mass destruction.
Individual citizens have no need for WMD's. As we have seen time and again, they don't save ANYONE's lives. They just kill in mass. Hunters don't use them, and people that deter crime at home rarely if ever do it with such rifles.
To me the issue is clear there. Then the whole health care matter is another key.
soon7x7 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 2798 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2134 times:
Quoting CometII (Reply 18): c) Citizens DO NOT have the right to possess weapons of mass destruction.
Problem their...we all do!...Our minds,...Just about any tangible item can be used as a lethal weapon if your mind is creative enough and disturbed enough to use it. Guns, Knives, bombs are just convenient ways to turn radical motives into moments of raged reality.
Think it might go along way in the future when purchasing a firearm, just like pilots, to mandate the purchaser be subject to a medical certificate, and finger printing that demonstrates your physical and emotional stability to own such devices. While I'm not a fan of any gun control it is obvious that new measures are in order. Flying aircraft has its levels of certification because it is inherently dangerous to operate flying machines. So to ensure as best as possible that flying remains safe as possible for all, including those on the ground, guns are dangerous vehicles as well. So possibly different levels of certification may have to exist as well.
It goes with out saying, the criminal or poorly wired individual will still get the gun, still get into a large gathering of people and have his way. Can't prevent it all but we can at least give it an honest go at it.
bmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2081 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2120 times:
Just a thought, could this be Obama's 9/11 moment?
Remember Bush's big joint-congress speech after the 9/11 attacks? His popularity skyrocketed to 90%.
Obama could make mass gun killings the centerpiece of State of Union speech and his Inauguration speech....whether his popularity skyrockets like Bush after 9/11/01 is unknown...
[Edited 2012-12-17 09:54:23]
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
Another Day, More Deaths: Two Police Officers Shot And Killed In Kansas
3-Year-Old Accidentally Shoots Himself, Dies...
Gunman At Large After Shooting Victim 4 Times...
Man Shoots Wife, Keeps Cops In Standoff For Hours...
One Person Shot In San Antonio, Gunman Later Shot By Cops...
Woman Shot At Campground...
Woman Shot To Death, Son 'Thought She Was Sleeping'
Joe Scarborough has a change of heart " Enough is enough"
... I guess there is a tipping point after all. It looks like gun blood does have a number where people can only take so much senseless killing. Let's see where it leads. Hearing Scarborough switch up shows promise.
BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13334 posts, RR: 64 Reply 22, posted (5 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2111 times:
Maybe there could be some "Must Issue" licencing involved. E.g. who wants to own a gun legally NEEDS to get a licence and for this he has to under a criminal background check and maybe a psychological evaluation every few years ( a bit similar to what I have to undergo as an airport employee to get my security clearance). If everything is in order the official at e.g. the local police department HAS to issue a licence, he cannot deny it due to personal preferences (what we had in Germany, where the local county clerk refused to issue gun licences to perfectly qualified people because he didn´t like civilians to own guns).
Hardcore criminals will always get guns, but these criminals mostly use the guns against each other (e.g. in turf wars) and innocent bystanders are more or less "collateral damage", who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I think you should say it's not "only a problem with society". There are people with "bad brains" born in every country, including the ones with weak mental health systems like the US, yet we don't see massacres on this scale happening as often. Societal values certainly do play a role in the issue.
Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 6): When I was in high school the solution was simple, you got your ass whipped for being a drama queen if you tried this crap. Quit treating children with kid gloves and they'll straighten up.
Cool, so when the kid eventually snaps, the first person he kills will be the person who abused him.
Wow, it's really sad that that is the state of mental healthcare.
Quoting CometII (Reply 18): I think the line should be drawn at the points weapons can kill multiple amounts of people within 60-90 seconds.
I don't think that definition works. You can easily kill a dozen people in 60 seconds with a pistol if you're in crowded place.
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 20): Just a thought, could this be Obama's 9/11 moment?
I don't think so. Bush was working with an external threat that attacked America...this is Americans killing Americans. If anything I think people will find a way to blame Obama.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16814 posts, RR: 57 Reply 24, posted (5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2054 times:
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23): I think you should say it's not "only a problem with society". There are people with "bad brains" born in every country, including the ones with weak mental health systems like the US, yet we don't see massacres on this scale happening as often. Societal values certainly do play a role in the issue.
Fair enough. And on that level, I think that the ready availability of firearms is the societal value that allowed someone with a bad brain to do this.
25 TheCommodore: Woooooo, What do you call what happened the other day, when 26 of your fellow country men were killed. Mass destruction ? You will NEVER stop people
26 HAWK21M: I'm an Excellent Aim at shooting but I dont own a gun.......Its only a hobby for me.I dont think it needs to be available with everyone. Exactly.....
27 soon7x7: America has done just that throughout its history...Freedom is worth fighting for on every level, That is why the US is a Gun Rich society. Guns are
28 DocLightning: And the fact that those people who are wired wrong can just go and get guns is alarming. It should not be easier to buy a deadly weapon than it is to
29 TheCommodore: There must be some BIG differences in our society's then, because Australia is a very "free society".... And we don't have to be armed to the back te
30 Dreadnought: Something interesting from the past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting Quite apart from the fact that a teacher stopped the massa
31 DocLightning: That sounds like insanity to me. Just because he says he's not insane doesn't make it so.
32 Geezer: Listening to, (or reading) all of these "experts" views about how to deal with "mentally disturbed" people by passing "more and more" gun laws........
33 DeltaMD90: These over the top replies are getting ridiculous and aren't convincing anyone Almost every single person on this board is NOT advocating "banning gun
34 WestJet747: You are in some states. CCW laws are essentially the freedom to "roam the streets with them" if you qualify. Not true. People, even the well-adjusted
35 DocLightning: ZOMG SOCIALIZED MEDICINE! Do you know who closed the asylums that had the crazy schizophrenics off the street? Ronald Reagan's administration saw to
36 DeltaMD90: I agree... I play some war games but I'm the type of person to look down when I walk so I don't step on any bugs. My big question is how do you find
37 Dreadnought: Forget the first sentence. There is nothing in there that says insanity to me. Insanity is when voices in your head tell you to do something. This gu
38 TheCommodore: Hi DeltaMD90 What happens in this situation then. News laws are introduced and everyone who applies for a "new" gun license must sit and pass the Men
39 DeltaMD90: I think either way, a bunch of common sense measures should go into place. I don't see why even an NRA member would be against some of these measures
40 soon7x7: In this case the kids mom blew it...she knew her son had issues so she teaches him to shoot guns?...see where that got her?. That was her shortcoming
41 TheCommodore: I hope your right, these mass killings just have to stop. A whole generation of kids are growing up thinking this is just the "norm" I doubt that you
42 Mir: Thousands of dead bodies every year say otherwise. The NRA will oppose any and all proposed restrictions on guns, even those sensible ones that have
43 stealthz: I think, and it is only my opinion**, that many Americans have difficulty separating this concept of Freedom and the right to bear arms. There are ma
44 cmf: Only the pro gunners are talking about ban. The rest of us are talking about gun control. The mass killings must stop but the sad thing is that they
45 KiwiRob: Yeh but that's ok for handguns and hunting rifles, there is no need for the average joe to own something like an AR-15, that's not worth fighting for
46 Dreadnought: Of course. Remember the famous sniper killings after 911 around DC? I recall a mass killing in NY State a couple of years ago where the shooters' nam
47 soon7x7: I don't disagree...Some individuals crave the notoriety via the press, but some are just nuts, regardless of the press. There are good people and def
48 roswell41: The Virginia Tech massacre, the deadliest in U.S. history, was committed by an Asian man. The D.C. Snipers were two black guys. Thanks for trying to b
49 cmf: Per US definitions that wasn't mass murder. It takes that 4 people are killed "without cooling off period" between murders. One reason why there are
50 MD11Engineer: Actually not. E.g. in Germany relatives of the victims of a school masascre are currently sueing the German government in the constitutional court. T
51 KiwiRob: He's an exception and not by birth an American. They didn't commit a massacre. Apart from Virginia Tech, the Binghamton shootings (both Aisans), Fort
52 DeltaMD90: Assuming white people commit more mass murders on average, what is you point?
53 roswell41: Only killed 10 people. Call it what you will. I wonder what your point is? White people make up the majority of people in the United States (~79%). Y
54 WestJet747: Insanity is a general term that covers several mental disorders that make a person act out against what are considered social norms. "Hearing voices"
55 KiwiRob: Just wondering why it appears to be a white guy thing to do. Serial killers also appear to be mostly white.
56 TheCommodore: Another shocking story, this time an 11year old ! http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10855029 Simply unbelievable.
57 lewis: Probably from the parents, who should lose their "right to bear arms" immediately and for life. It is obvious that a lot of people who own guns in th
58 KiwiRob: Kid was just doing what some posters here think is every US citizens god given right to bear arms to defend themselves, surely you can't see anything
59 soon7x7: Don't know of one state in the US where you could walk down a main thouroughfare or side street brandishing an AK47 without some official challenging
60 KiwiRob: I'm guessing states which allow open carry you could.
61 TheCommodore: I suppose that's most likely. But if I was the law, I'd lock those 2 parents up for a VERY VERY long time, like 20 years ! Then that in itself, is re
62 DocLightning: Your definition of insanity varies from that which is currently accepted by professionals. Admittedly, hearing voices counts as insanity, but insanit
63 lewis: I wouldn't go so far, in general I have a problem with legislation that results in spoiling the "fun" (maybe not the best word but you get me) for th
64 roswell41: So being a gangster would be a 'black' thing to do? Being good at math is an 'Asian' thing to do? No one commented on your statement, but you're comm
65 roswell41: As has been said ad nauseum, gun rights cannot be lumped in with any privilege. Gun rights are as sacred as the right to worship your faith or no fai
66 DeltaMD90: Says who? I don't know if you own guns or not, but don't you agree it's a HUGE responsibility? If you are incompetent, I don't want you near the thin
67 roswell41: Of course owning and using firearms is a large responsibility. So is speaking your mind and voting. All have serious implications if done wrongly inc
68 DeltaMD90: You say this, but then you say this: How is that not contradicting yourself? You originally say there should be no "test" then put conditions on owni
69 Dreadnought: You can be mentally unstable, or have some form mental illness, and not be insane. The whole reason that there exists an insanity plea is there are s
70 Mir: The difference, of course, is that people who don't pass poll tests aren't putting others in mortal danger. I'm not just talking about murder either
72 WestJet747: I checked just to make sure, and...nope, can't find anything about god saying you have the right to own a gun. It actually doesn't say anything about
73 YVRLTN: Please.... the same God who gave commandments which include "do not kill" right? I see the identification and treatment of mental health as a slipper
74 DeltaMD90: I do not know this case... I know a bit about the Rem 700... the M24 for the US Army, but not this case Either way, I am not talking about manufactur
75 roswell41: Since you're flag indicates you're Canadian, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You won't find what I said in the Bible or Torah, but you will f
76 roswell41: This I can agree with. Yep, same God, creator, nature's god, etc. Take your pick.
77 roswell41: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then. I am drawing a distinction between owning vs carry a gun. Owning should have no mandated training/
78 DeltaMD90: Don't go on and on about that, I AM an American, not a Canadian, and a gun owner, and I disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Not everything th
79 WestJet747: I wasn't trying to incite argument...just giving some anecdotal evidence to the contrary of your point So because the founding fathers said it's god-
80 roswell41: Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I refuse to sit quietly and let my rights be curtailed due to the actions of a few insane criminals. Th
81 roswell41: Good question. I'll try to provide some color. Basically, the Founders were typical of the Enlightenment era. They were exposed to many great thinker
82 lewis: Well the fallacy of this line of thinking is pretty obvious. The constitution was not written by God (unless I am missing critical information). Thes
83 roswell41: These rights are given by God to all human beings. We are just fortunate to have a government developed to protect and respect them in the USA. I'm d
84 DeltaMD90: Again, don't you think there should be even a basic level of understanding of guns? Maybe if guns COULDN'T be brought outside the house it would be d
85 zippyjet: Regarding mental health care in the USA, "mental illness" is still stigmatized especially by my (baby boom generation) which in turn filters down to
86 Mir: If by "owning" you mean "keep on the wall for display purposes", then fine: render the gun inoperable and I have no problem with someone owning one w
87 Flighty: You will always have 1 person in 10,000 being a total maniac. Actually, the number is probably higher. Many of them are intelligent and manipulative.
88 Flighty: This should be considered a fringe viewpoint. The 2nd Amendment does not allow young men who are not in a well-regulated militia to have assault weap
89 Mir: Actually, if you want to look at modern 2nd Amendment interpretations, just look at the idea that the militia component of the clause has nothing to
90 KiwiRob: What's racist about it, I think it's up to you to prove me wrong! All the recent cases where someone has gone nuts and killed large numbers of people
91 Geezer: Many people have been explaining why they are against "gun control measures" (as you refer to them), but YOU weren't listening; that's one of the big
92 ltbewr: A deeper issue is the social and economic stigma of mental and psychological illness as well as ignorance in knowing how to deal with it with those we
93 roswell41: It's not up to me to do anything. I've presented empirical evidence in an earlier post regarding crime in the U.S. broken down by race. You've presen
94 roswell41: Research these U.S. Supreme Court decisions: Heller v DC McDonald v Chicago Once you've read those, if you want to know why you shouldn't rely on the
95 roswell41: Well, look at the US military's lack of clear victory in Afghanistan or Iraq. Insurgencies armed with just small arms and improvised devices have bea
96 KiwiRob: Stupid thing to say because it's true, and easy to verify, more murders are committed in the US by black people than any other ethnicity, it's a fact
97 DeltaMD90: The "lie" is claiming all these groups want to "ban all guns." No one is suggesting that
98 Mir: Both very recent decisions, which run contrary to the long-standing belief that the prime purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to provide for state militi
99 cmf: May I suggest you read up on how the meaning of the second amendment has changed over history and especially over the last 40 years. It may also be i
100 roswell41: I've read plenty of scholarly articles on the subject including the Federalist Papers which provide insight into the thinking of the Founders in thei
101 Mir: Until it gets overturned. If there's one thing that the Supreme Court has proven over the past decade or so, it's that stare decisis doesn't mean a d
102 cmf: Great. Then explain why the interpretation has changed so dramatically over the last 40ish years.
103 Maverick623: A well regarded legal theory is that the rights enshrined in the Constitution are naturally-held rights, and they are listed the way they are not bec
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