Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
23 Year Old Girl Gangraped In Delhi  
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9274 times:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/d...-rape/specialcoverage/17675360.cms

"A 23-year-old physiotherapy student was stripped, beaten and raped in a moving bus in south Delhi on December 16, stirring shock and outrage in India."

Its sad that this is what India has become  . I am Indian by heritage and even during the time i lived there (from 2005 to 2012), these incidents have become more regular.

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9257 times:

I know and have known several Indians in DC, and they have told me that Delhi is a bad place for single women. Much worse than Mumbai. I always thought of Delhi as a very international, cosmopolitan place.


oh boy!!!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7396 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9206 times:

This is nuts. Rape is horrible to begin with, but gang-rape is just animal. I'm not going to play race cards here, but something needs to happen in India in order to curb all of this stuff.....and I'm NOT suggesting any sort of Saudi-Arabia-esque gender separation.. I think there needs to be more gender-related education. Unacceptable for this to be happening anywhere.

Related news, something like this happened to a frat here in AZ a while ago and that frat is reportedly now completely banned from having any presence on campus or in University activities. Ever since that incident, frats were forced as part of their pledge-program to do gender studies related entry programs for new pledges in order to prevent this kind of stuff from happening. Maybe this is what needs to happen in India.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9005 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):

The problem is women have always been viewed as secondary to men in India. Now with India becoming modern, society hasnt caught up and more incidents like this will happen.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9001 times:

There's a combination of factors at play. Delhi is a particularly bad place in this regard because of a large number of people with no sense of community or civic belonging, who think of nothing further than getting ahead or making money. A lot of the nouveau riche from the real estate and urbanization boom simply lack morals and proper upbringing - to such an extent that someone pissed off with a shopkeeper might whip out and brandish a gun to have his way, or a bunch of men resort to something this tragic.

Unless the Delhi Police and state government come down hard on these rapists, as well as upon the general category of those guilty of the innocuously named 'eve teasing' this is going to continue. History has shown that when the state throws is weight upon a social problem, the population fairly quickly falls in line. Not acting firmly amounts to a political failure, considering DP and Punjab Police have together snuffed out the far worse threat of Khalistani terrorism.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinedetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8814 times:

Ive always wondered how there is such a large difference in safety in india as you travel from South to North. In Kerala, nothing will happen to a woman, as you move further up north toward Mumbai/Pune, it is still safe, but not completely and then when you move further to delhi, Haryana and punjab this seems like an everyday thing?
Is is some sort of cultural difference? You would think they would try and keep the capital under check.



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlinesturmovik From India, joined May 2007, 509 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8780 times:

Quoting detroitflyer (Reply 5):
In Kerala, nothing will happen to a woman

Oh believe me, the people in my state probably won't rape as much, but we're just as bad as the rest when it comes to mentality towards women. While Kerala might give the appearance of a modern and liberal place, the attitudes entrenched in males there differs little from the uneducated guys in Delhi who perpetrated this incident. There's an unwritten moral code that's policed by practically everyone in society. We're the biggest consumers of alcohol in the country but there are incidents where women have been abused/harassed/molested by self proclaimed moral guardians of the society for having the temerity to queue up before a state controlled liquor shop. And that is just one example. Our legal framework and society in general is a lot better than the other states in that education and a rather strong rule of law prevents people from committing as many crimes as you would probably find outside. But that does not mean we're different in attitude. It's a countrywide problem, and wont go away for the next decade or three, by when hopefully efforts at educating the populace would've paid off.



'What's it doing now?'
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6594 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8778 times:

Sorry to burst your collective bubble but rape has no borders it is happening near your too.

In India I would be more worried about abortion of female fetus because it will have ill effects for decades.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8736 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Sorry to burst your collective bubble but rape has no borders it is happening near your too.

In India I would be more worried about abortion of female fetus because it will have ill effects for decades.

Well put my friend. Within reach? No!

The only comfort in all this is that if they will not be punished in court, the public will take care of them in the worst possible way! Which I salute.
And don't give me any crap lecture about me being just as horrible for wishing them to die a slow horrifying death.
Anyone seen Law Ibiding Citizen? he revenge scene in this movie is just brilliant as it reflects what we all think but many don't dare to say.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8672 times:

was just watching the news, last year there were 24,000 rapes reported in Delhi, only 1 man was sentanced to prison, something is really wrong here.

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8576 times:

What a shame. I can't speak to the specific cultural circumstances of India, but I can't help but wonder if the social structures that both discourage people from committing this horrible behavior and punish people who commit it, have had a hard time keeping up with economic growth and urbanization on the scale that India has experienced. Rapidly growing cities are always seen as lawless, uncertain places in American culture, I wonder if India is similar.

[Edited 2012-12-20 17:52:37]

User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8508 times:

Well, this year the Indian supreme court came down hard on honour killings (which is not just a Muslim thing, also uneducated Hindus commit those crimes, e.g. when different castes are involved in a love marriage as oppesed to a marriage arranged by the parents). The supreme court stated that those committing honour killings should be hanged.

Jan


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8470 times:

Delhi Bus Gang Rape Case - A case of moral crisis and ideological fracture of India
(copy of deleted double-posted thread)

On Sunday night several men raped a girl in a moving bus in Southern Delhi, while beating up her male companion, all that after allegedly having robbed another passenger with 8000 Rs. That's according to the official version of the facts. There is little sense in discussing what they did, but more into how it actually happened and how exaggerated the public reactions and outcry is. Cause in a number of posters we see stuff such as "Don't tell women how to dress, tell men how to behave" or "Don't tell your daughter not to go out, tell your son to behave properly".

For me what all this points out at is a huge ideological and moral crisis taking place in India for several years now, which is struggling to find its way between its traditional moral heritage and the adoption of the Western views and style of life. Let me remind you that the country with the highest number of rapes per capita right after South Africa is the USA, and certainly not India, for the culture of sex, egoism, hedonism, materialism and violence it endorses and portrays. In my opinion rape prevalence is based on the combined ratio of:

a) emotional availability of women in a given society, female's empathy
b) extent to which sex is portrayed and banalised in the society (presented as just another way of pleasure, consumption and entertainment).

The lower a) (the emotional availability of women) is and the more b) sex is portrayed everywhere, the higher the rape incidence ratios in one society will be.

Back to the topic, for me this happens in India due to the rotting and abandonment of their traditional values by a large portion of the population (especially in the big metros, Delhi, Bangalore) under the pressure and infiltration of Western views on life, women and sex. And the case that now occurred is contested the most actually by those Westernised Indians who endorse such values and chant those slogans, so who indirectly helped it to happen by fuelling the ideological fracture and the moral crisis while indirectly creating a rape-prone atmosphere and environment in the country. (For who anyone who knows India, understands that Hindus are not exactly the violent/raping types, so what makes them behave like that more and more?)

Instead of further talking about "enhancing women's independence" i actually think India should get back to its traditional values and set a strict moral framework that wouldn't allow for such things to happen, neither will girls have the need to go out at 22h and mimic the Western way of life/clothing and the men will understand that if they do something like that they'll not be judged by a Western-like tribunal copy-pasting UK laws, but will actually lawfully get killed by the family and other people. Period. And as deplorable as it all might seem, the women and her friend don't seem to have been of a too pleasing character either since they actually got into a fight with the guys that maybe could have been avoided, but that went dangerously too far - wrong people at the wrong place. Wish them to recover and the perpetrators to repent on what they did and instead of being hanged hopefully one day start working in rape-prevention campaigns, after understanding what led them to commit such an act. Blind revengefulness doesn't solve anything.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/d...indows-driver-with-a-record-307230
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/g...e-police-track-down-the-bus-306378


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8452 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 12):
how exaggerated the public reactions and outcry is.

Not really sure how outrage over a gang-rape and near-murder in a public bus can be exaggerated, but to each their own.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 12):
In my opinion rape prevalence is based on the combined ratio of:

a) emotional availability of women in a given society, female's empathy

What exactly do you mean by "emotional availability"? If women don't make themselves available to men as the men please, that actually increases the rape prevalence? Because men simply take what's rightfully theirs? Troubling attitude, not really far off from how rapists in South Africa rationalize and excuse their actions.
http://www.mrc.ac.za/gender/prev_rapedd041209.pdf

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 12):
b) extent to which sex is portrayed and banalised in the society (presented as just another way of pleasure, consumption and entertainment).

Any source whatsoever to back this up? Any study, statistics, long-term survey? Any source for your allegation that the U.S. is second behind South Africa in rape prevalence?

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 12):
Instead of further talking about "enhancing women's independence" i actually think India should get back to its traditional values and set a strict moral framework that wouldn't allow for such things to happen, neither will girls have the need to go out at 22h and mimic the Western way of life/clothing

Welcome back to the Middle Ages. Let's just lock our women and daughters up after dark, because those crafty men just can't be kept from raping them! Those rascals, eh?

There simply is no excuse for rape, period. Not the dress, not the time a women is walking outside, not her "emotional availability" or some such nonsense - nothing. Men who don't get that belong in jail. And that's all there's to it.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8413 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):

I expected you and many other people getting over-emotional over this issue (especially those not akin with Indian culture), which certainly doesn't helps to understand the why and how. Before condemning people you first need to understand how the mind works and how mentalities and personalities are formed. That's part of psychological research. The easiest thing is to see everything black and white, knowing you can't explain it in the way it really is. But Rara coming from you i must admit it is a bit disappointing. This event is just a wave in a storm, not a separate incident in itself that deserves so much attention but a materialization of a much profound ideological turmoil that is hitting India at present in this globalization age.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8405 times:

This is a perfect media-sensation story though, awakening all the worst in the subconscious of everyone, therefore having a heavy media attention while countries where rape is a daily routine don't ever receive that much attention. Not to talk about other world-problems, anyway.

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
ot really sure how outrage over a gang-rape and near-murder in a public bus can be exaggerated, but to each their own.

Take it or leave but simply being outraged won't solve anything. Instead of looking for the source of the problem inwards and thinking how could that happen, they go to shout on the streets. Not very constructive in my opinion.

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
What exactly do you mean by "emotional availability"?

I think i defined it quite precisely.

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
If women don't make themselves available to men as the men please, that actually increases the rape prevalence? Because men simply take what's rightfully theirs? Troubling attitude,

Sounds like you're a bit unsure in your manhood.

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
Any source whatsoever to back this up? Any study, statistics, long-term survey? Any source for your allegation that the U.S. is second behind South Africa in rape prevalence?

Top 10 for 2010

1 - South Africa
2 - Botswana
3 - Lesotho
4 - Sweden
5 - Grenada
6 - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
7 - Costa Rica
8 - Bahamas
9 - Saint Kitts and Nevis
10 - United States of America

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

USA is the second major country with highest rape occurrence per capita, or third if you want to count Sweden in it. So how come the "developed" Sweden and USA are right among the most retarded African countries? Well, because of the reasons i just explained. You would be also nicely surprised by the continuation of the list that goes as follows:

11 - Belgium
12 - United Kingdom
13 - New Zealand

I know it's hard to accept it. In 2009 Sweden "won" the second place while the US was on the 6th, with more countries participating in the research. The Asian and Muslim countries rank the lowest in terms of rape per capita, which further confirms my claim that some culture create and provoke such acts and attitudes.

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
Welcome back to the Middle Ages.

The world was better during the Middle Ages in many ways.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8397 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):

From your own document that apparently you haven't read properly:

"Whilst this is a problem in its own right, it also gives rise to intergenerational cycling of
violence. Girls exposed to physical, sexual and emotional trauma as children are at increased
risk of re-victimisation as adults. Exposure of boys to abuse, neglect or sexual violence
in childhood greatly increases the chance of their being violent as adolescents and adults,
and reduces their ability to form enduring emotional attachments. Trauma during childhood
impacts on brain development, enhancing anti-social and psychopathic behaviour and
reducing the ability to empathise."

"Widespread abuse of alcohol and drugs
South Africa has one of the highest per capita alcohol consumption levels per drinker in the
world, social norms dictate that when we drink we consume a lot. Many of our acts of fatal
and non-fatal violence occur after alcohol and drug abuse, especially fights, some types of
homicide and rape. Many victims of violence are also rendered vulnerable by alcohol.
In a vicious cycle, victims of violence often start drinking heavily to deal with the trauma they
have experienced, but their drinking makes it harder from them to escape from violence in
their lives. Children are often left very vulnerable by their parents’ drinking."

This is what i'm trying to talk about. Not just pointing the stupid finger at the guilty but trying to understand why did it happen which is even more complex in the case of India than South Africa.

EDIT: Added quotation.

[Edited 2012-12-21 10:22:36]

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8394 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 2):

As said before, the US and the majority of Western countries have far more issues with rape than India so don't stigmatize the whole country and culture based on one event. And don't forget we're talking of a country with 3 times the population of the US. The shootings that occurred there are a much bigger case of concern for me than this.


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8375 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 17):
As said before, the US and the majority of Western countries have far more issues with rape than India so don't stigmatize the whole country and culture based on one event. And don't forget we're talking of a country with 3 times the population of the US. The shootings that occurred there are a much bigger case of concern for me than this.

Well said. Thank you.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 17):

Yes but it doesn't excuse what happen. Also, it wasn't initially reported but the young woman was violated with an Iron Rod and that's why her intestines turned gangrenous and had to be removed. Tupolev, India is a democracy and People are free to live their lives. Women shouldn't have to fear getting on a bus at night. That is unacceptable.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8331 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 14):
I expected you and many other people getting over-emotional over this issue (especially those not akin with Indian culture), which certainly doesn't helps to understand the why and how.

I can't really say I'm over-emotional over this. It's a sad and shocking incident, but in a country of more than a billion inhabitants, this stuff unfortunately happens. Only if somebody suggests that women had it coming because of going out late and because of the way they dress, for me a whole number of red flags go up.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
Sounds like you're a bit unsure in your manhood.

Nice.   In another thread, you suggested that I was "mentally and physically unfit to father children".   Which is a rather surprising insight considering you don't know much about me other than screenname and the fact that I believe women shouldn't be locked up in the cellar with chastity belts on.

I'm not any less guilty of speculation than you are, but to me it seems you're simply afraid of modern women.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
1 - South Africa
2 - Botswana
3 - Lesotho
4 - Sweden
5 - Grenada
6 - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
7 - Costa Rica
8 - Bahamas
9 - Saint Kitts and Nevis
10 - United States of America

So - what do we see here? A rather eclectic mix of very developed countries, very underdeveloped countries, religious countries, secular countries, large countries, small countries - in other words, there isn't any clear trend at all.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
So how come the "developed" Sweden and USA are right among the most retarded African countries? Well, because of the reasons i just explained.

Or because Swedes and Americans are much more willing to actually report a rape case, while in many other countries women may be too scared to actually go to the police and report it. Who knows.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
The world was better during the Middle Ages in many ways.

For women it wasn't.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 17):
As said before, the US and the majority of Western countries have far more issues with rape than India so don't stigmatize the whole country and culture based on one event. And don't forget we're talking of a country with 3 times the population of the US. The shootings that occurred there are a much bigger case of concern for me than this.

Certainly true. I don't wish to stigmatize India and I wouldn't suggest that the rape issue is any more pressing in India than in other places. Still, I don't think such an indicent could have taken place in a public bus around here. If an incident like this is possible in public, something is wrong and needs to be addressed.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 19):
Women shouldn't have to fear getting on a bus at night. That is unacceptable.

Exactly.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinedetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8247 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
I know it's hard to accept it. In 2009 Sweden "won" the second place while the US was on the 6th, with more countries participating in the research. The Asian and Muslim countries rank the lowest in terms of rape per capita, which further confirms my claim that some culture create and provoke such acts and attitudes.

PLEASE!!! I really hope you dont actually believe this. Maybe it is because is the middle eastern countries/India, your life is pretty much over if you have been raped, and in the United States/Sweden you will probably see justice. Therefore women in westernized countries are much more willing to report it. IMHO, i think the western countries take it overboard with the punishment of sex offenders (registration and such). Whereas in india/ME if you get raped, you basically are unmarriagable and abandoned by your family and society.

Quoting Rara (Reply 20):
Or because Swedes and Americans are much more willing to actually report a rape case, while in many other countries women may be too scared to actually go to the police and report it. Who knows.

  



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 12):
for me this happens in India due to the rotting and abandonment of their traditional values by a large portion of the population (especially in the big metros, Delhi, Bangalore) under the pressure and infiltration of Western views on life, women and sex. And the case that now occurred is contested the most actually by those Westernised Indians who endorse such values and chant those slogans, so who indirectly helped it to happen by fuelling the ideological fracture and the moral crisis while indirectly creating a rape-prone atmosphere and environment in the country. (For who anyone who knows India, understands that Hindus are not exactly the violent/raping types, so what makes them behave like that more and more?)

Well said...and see below.

Quoting Rara (Reply 20):
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
1 - South Africa
2 - Botswana
3 - Lesotho
4 - Sweden
5 - Grenada
6 - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
7 - Costa Rica
8 - Bahamas
9 - Saint Kitts and Nevis
10 - United States of America

So - what do we see here? A rather eclectic mix of very developed countries, very underdeveloped countries, religious countries, secular countries, large countries, small countries - in other words, there isn't any clear trend at all.

Here's what I see... historic sexually repressed British Colonial influence that has affected attitudes of living great grandparents, grandparents and parents for decades. And those attitudes crippled and warped the minds/attitudes of successive offspring. The United States...not included because we went thru a serious sexual revolution - a sexual reckoning of sorts which paved the way for a full frontal assault of addressing homosexuality like no nation every has. But on the other hand many nations recognized with in credible ease like Israel (the whole military thing).. However, we also have the strongest advocacy with regard to 'reporting sexual assaults'..all things being equal, if every nation on the planet had equal aggressive reporting of sexual assaults..that 1-10 rating would look entirely different with US dropping further down the line on a per capita basis. When men in many of these cultures are so repressed the look to the one target they can 'get away with it with relative ease'.. attacking a female. And even the the US still does not have a full accounting of true and all sexual assaults. In countries with lesser grades of justice (look at the list), the greater the chance of many assaults going unreported. Sweden, probably has the highest number of accurate reports of assaults (immigrants may even supress that truthful accounting).

But back to the attitudes greatly tied to past British attitudes. India is the land of the Karma Sutra, sexual repression hasn't always been a probably here. Only seriously talking root with the arrival of the British and the impetus to be like them. India just decriminalized homosexuality in the 21st Century..incredibly late to the scene. Child abuse (sexually) must be off the grid in this place..it is honestly and horrificly portrayed in films like Salaam Bombay and the most disturbing true life depiction 'The Bandit Queen of India' (not a film for the weak hearted - fair warning).

India and many other nations (China with it's widening male-to-female ratios) need a sexual awakening of sorts to counter the decades of repressive attitudes. Or it will get worse before it gets better.


BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8159 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 20):
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
So how come the "developed" Sweden and USA are right among the most retarded African countries? Well, because of the reasons i just explained.

Or because Swedes and Americans are much more willing to actually report a rape case, while in many other countries women may be too scared to actually go to the police and report it. Who knows.

Also Swedish law has a very far reaching definition of rape, much wider than in most other countries. I got told that in Sweden as a man you´d better let the woman make the first move, in front of witnesses, so that you can´t be accused of rape later.

Jan


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 17):
As said before, the US and the majority of Western countries have far more issues with rape than India so don't stigmatize the whole country and culture based on one event. And don't forget we're talking of a country with 3 times the population of the US. The shootings that occurred there are a much bigger case of concern for me than this.

What complete BS, so you're saying that only 1 conviction and imprisonment from 23,000 reported rapes in one city in India isn't a problem and is minor in comparison to Western countries. Just imagine how many rapes take place in India, it must run into millions per year.


User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 20 hours ago) and read 7786 times:

Hi!

Sorry I didn't read it all but I will only reply to the original poster.

Yes I know things like this may be problems but I don't think they are that common. And you are lucky (at least I think so) to have a country. That is a great thing. I come from a race which doesn't have a country. In fact we are not even allowed to live in our homeland anymore and are holding on to the last few villages with little chance or success. I will never see where I come from. My relatives are all buried in countries of the World and surrounded by strangers.

I know someone here from Sri Lanka and they said to me recently they are looking forward to go back for the holidays and be in a their country surrounded by thier people. I just looked at them with a blank face.

Even though it may seem like you don't have much to some people you have a lot but in a different way.

Anyway I hope things like this don't become too common.

Many thanks.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7120 posts, RR: 8
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 16 hours ago) and read 7742 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
The Asian and Muslim countries rank the lowest in terms of rape per capita, which further confirms my claim that some culture create and provoke such acts and attitudes.

Ok, lets visit this situation in more depth.
Rape in many countries is not about men seeking pleasure from women who deny them but is a form of punishment, especially in instances of honour. We have all seen and heard stories of women who have their faces disfigured because they or their family refused an arranged marrage, rape is another form of acid attack.
Women who are raped have a stain placed on their family, they will never marry and their family is stained for a lifetime, indeed in some instances the family will perform an honour killing to restore their name. In such male dominated societies rape is never reported to protect the family name, it is much more than a simple criminal offense.

I have only seen one comment in another media and am looking for confirmation from other sources, but the claim was made that the reason why this rape is generating so much publicity and outrage is because the woman and her companion were from a higher class. One thing often overlooked is how segregated India still is in many regions outside of the big cities, it is a vast country with many different cultures.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7468 times:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/27/wo...sia/india-rape-protests/index.html

I mean, one thing is to rape a woman but to do this...this is like a massacre. I don't want to sound paradoxal but i think that even if a man was to rape a women for any reason he should still have some respect of her and human decency, meaning certainly not beating her, to rob and throw out of a moving vehicle. That's below any male or human decency. What have they done so her internal organs are so damaged?

I get the feeling as if in this incident collided all the energies coming from the moral/ideological fracture on one side India is suffering from (explained previously) as well as of the not less important social fracture India has been suffering from for centuries. Seems that guys from the low caste met a high-cast girl and decided to spread onto her body all their anger and rage stemming from their inferior and despising social status.
Those who are familiar with the conditions of low-caste people in India will understand what i'm talking about.
Before the little dogs start barking: i'm looking here for reasons not excuses.

[Edited 2012-12-27 08:15:59]

User currently offlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7221 times:

The BBC have just tweeted that this indecent has become even more horrific with this young woman succumbing to her injuries


Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7194 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Yup - turns out they have killed her. Those monsters murdered her. It makes me sick to the core.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 7037 times:

I feel so much, putting it into words would be futile. I have a friend who is a woman in Mumbai now, I have a few male friends in Delhi. I was considering going to India for pleasure; I feel differently now at the moment. I would not waste my disposable money is such a horrid place not to even respect a woman's life or her right to peace or justice. I am disgusted and a lot of people are. This has brought more than shame on the international climate there, and has been a bellwether for the uncovering of human rights injustices in India. Disgusting beyond the trash of the earth.


oh boy!!!
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 7022 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 30):

A lot of things need to change over there  . It's really sad that it has come to this  . The media there is doing a good job of questioning though.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6953 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 31):
A lot of things need to change over there . It's really sad that it has come to this . The media there is doing a good job of questioning though.

Well, here's hoping at least that some kind of positive lasting legacy comes out of this horrific attack. And - that the attackers get all that they deserve.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8827 posts, RR: 24
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6943 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 15):
The Asian and Muslim countries rank the lowest in terms of rape per capita, which further confirms my claim that some culture create and provoke such acts and attitudes.

In many of those countries rape routinely leads to punishment of the woman, whether by the justice system or by the families, so naturally it will very rarely be reported.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6940 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
In many of those countries rape routinely leads to punishment of the woman, whether by the justice system or by the families, so naturally it will very rarely be reported.

  

In the west, in spite of huge initiatives to encourage rape victims to come forward and report the crime they have suffered, unreported rape is a massive problem. Do you seriously think that in countries where the rapist naturally has the upper hand, and where such initiatives and sympathetic policing are hugely lacking, that the 'low' rape statistics are to be believed?? They may as well just be plucked out of thin air.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6944 times:

If you watch the true case re-enactment shows aired on some Indian chanels you would lose trust in humanity, most of the cases shown are solved by police but still.

User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tMXRvD3JhU . These are the sort of idiots in power

User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 697 posts, RR: 13
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 20):


Or because Swedes and Americans are much more willing to actually report a rape case, while in many other countries women may be too scared to actually go to the police and report it.

        

As many as half of rape reports in western countries are bogus, often a tool used by women (who are angry for other reasons) because it is taken so seriously by the police and is an easy eay to embarrass men who then face immediate police interest or arrest merely after a female makes a sworn statement.

http://www.mediaradar.org/research_on_false_rape_allegations.php

....whereas in any country that ends in -stan, or was once a part of the USSR, or has a particulary authoritarian relgious regime, almost no rapes are reported because the accuser is often punished, ridiculed or simply ignored.




Pu


User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6779 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This lovely young lady is now in a place where she will feel no more pain.

May she Rest in Peace and those COWARDLY worthless pieces of filth who committed this vile, inhuman act, die a long and painful death.

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 38):
those COWARDLY worthless pieces of filth who committed this vile, inhuman act, die a long and painful death.

F

I´m quite sure that the perpetrators will have an appointment with the hangman soon. Maybe not the one perpetrator of minor age (who´s case will be tried seperately).

Jan


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6595 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 30):
I feel so much, putting it into words would be futile. I have a friend who is a woman in Mumbai now, I have a few male friends in Delhi. I was considering going to India for pleasure; I feel differently now at the moment. I would not waste my disposable money is such a horrid place not to even respect a woman's life or her right to peace or justice.

That's going too far to characterize an entire city and beyond as uncivilized for the actions of a few. How would an American feel if an Indian stereotyped all Americans by stating the US is too dangerous to visit because they may get shot in a mall, theater or school, or because an Indian was pushed in front of the NYC subway recently ? I'd urge you to put aside such stereotypical notions and actually visit the place to define your own perspectives - you already have friends here, which makes things a lot easier for you when it comes to visiting.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 8
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 40):

That's going too far to characterize an entire city and beyond as uncivilized for the actions of a few. How would an American feel if an Indian stereotyped all Americans by stating the US is too dangerous to visit because they may get shot in a mall, theater or school, or because an Indian was pushed in front of the NYC subway recently ? I'd urge you to put aside such stereotypical notions and actually visit the place to define your own perspectives - you already have friends here, which makes things a lot easier for you when it comes to visiting.

My Indian friends are the ones who said such bad things about Delhi and North India in general. I was frankly shocked by what they said before this massacre. Would I go as a man, yes. Would I want any female I know to go, no. There are widespread incidents of random aggression towards women, groping, abuse, rape. And the police/judiciary don't even care! To me there is a cultural problem at place where the woman is not respected. To say or insinuate this was a one-off incident is missing the point. When a whole segment of society is treating a woman as worthless trash from the crib to the grave there is a problem.

And for people who think this was just a gang rape...as horrific as that is...I have news for you.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-...-want-to-live/Article1-976798.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...es-shocking-details_n_2340721.html

Quote:
“It appears to be that a rod was inserted into her and it was pulled out with so much force that the act brought out her intestines along. That is probably the only thing that explains such severe damage to her intestines,” he said.

According to sources, one of the accused persons who were brought to the hospital for a medical examination on Tuesday confessed to having seen a rope-like object — likely her intestines — being pulled out of the girl by the other assailants on the bus. The sources said that the girl had bite marks on her body.

They tortured her, shoved a rusty tire wrench inside her, and pulled her intestines out with their hands...while she was still alive. Some reports state that by the time she was admitted to the hospital 50-95% of her large and small intestine were gone, along with her uterus, and severe internal damage to other organs. That is more than just rape.

P.S. hotel bookings at 4-5 star hotels in Delhi and Mumbai are down 15-25% by other reports.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6500 times:

This crime really shakes the Indian nation. On saturday I had a sightseeing tour through Delhi, the whole government area was roadblocked, and many metro stations closed. I didnt see demonstrators though. My hotel was just one km away from were they threw the girl and her boyfriend out of the bus, my driver showed me the place. Eery.
I think these cruel murderers will go to the gallows. Women I spoke to said that the situation on public transport has become worse in recent years, even in Mumbai which is supposed to be much safer than Delhi. The government has to give a sign and react, thats what everyone says.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
P.S. hotel bookings at 4-5 star hotels in Delhi and Mumbai are down 15-25% by other reports.

I indeed got a very good rate in a marbled 5-star place, even including late check-out at 6 pm.


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6492 times:

Quoting na (Reply 42):
I think these cruel murderers will go to the gallows.

If they don´t get killed by their fellow prisoners first. I´ve read somewhere that one of them had to be locked away in solitary confinement because he got severly beaten up by the other prisoners and forced to eat human faeces.

Jan


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6423 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
To say or insinuate this was a one-off incident is missing the point. When a whole segment of society is treating a woman as worthless trash from the crib to the grave there is a problem.

You are misreading my post. I'm not trivializing the crime. I'm suggesting that you do not tar and feather an entire population based on one horrific incident.

If you look at any crime with a sufficient level of detail, they are too gruesome for the average person to contemplate, whether it is this tragic rape in New Delhi, or dozens of 6 year old mere toddlers getting shot in the face in the US. Had the media in the US reported the extent of what happened there in as much lurid detail as the details of the rape was reported in India, I think the outrage in the US would have been more significant. As it is, out of respect for the victims, they were not. In India, the media does not yet have the maturity to do that. Or perhaps reporting the details served the positive effect of amplifying the rage against the inaction of the police and administrative authorities on the matter.

That there are social inequities in India is nothing new. If anything, the extent of the public response to this crime is a huge positive - I've never seen a rape become a national issue like this. What does the US do about the fact that despite being the most prosperous nation in the world, someone packs guns and goes and kills people with sickening regularity ? All I see in the threads here are strongly held positions on gun control without really asking why people go and shoot others in public places.

Every system and society has its warts. I just find it unreasonable to suggest that on the basis of this incident, India is too dangerous to visit, but that the US is not, despite having its own share of violent crime on a regular basis. There's no moral relativism between them - viewed in sufficient detail, they are both equally horrifying.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
If they don´t get killed by their fellow prisoners first. I´ve read somewhere that one of them had to be locked away in solitary confinement because he got severly beaten up by the other prisoners and forced to eat human faeces.

My heart bleeds for him. Truly.


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6290 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 41):
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-...-want-to-live/Article1-976798.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...es-shocking-details_n_2340721.html

Quote:
“It appears to be that a rod was inserted into her and it was pulled out with so much force that the act brought out her intestines along. That is probably the only thing that explains such severe damage to her intestines,” he said.

According to sources, one of the accused persons who were brought to the hospital for a medical examination on Tuesday confessed to having seen a rope-like object — likely her intestines — being pulled out of the girl by the other assailants on the bus. The sources said that the girl had bite marks on her body.

They tortured her, shoved a rusty tire wrench inside her, and pulled her intestines out with their hands...while she was still alive. Some reports state that by the time she was admitted to the hospital 50-95% of her large and small intestine were gone, along with her uterus, and severe internal damage to other organs. That is more than just rape.

Its a miracle that she survived so long and was even able to make a statement to the police.
In India they are using the British method of the the calculated drop during hangings (the length of the rope gets calculated using a formula based on the weight and size of the condemned devised by some British 19th century executioner to ensure the breaking of the neck without ripping off the head to ensure a fast death, within seconds). I hope the executioner calculates the rope a bit too short so that it will result in strangling only, with the resulting "Tyburn jig". (Tyburn used to be the site of the old public gallows of London City up to the late 18th century. Up to then they used short drop hanging, which killed by strangulation and usually took several minutes. The gallows was located approximately where Marble Arch is today, at the north east corner of Hyde Park).

My anger comes from the fact that the few Indian women I know, both as classmates in back university days as well as colleagues of my Missus, are all lovely persons and I do not want to imagine such a crime happening to any of them.
BTW from what I´ve read the father of the woman was a baggage loader at Delhi airport, so while he had a job, he defintely wasn´t rich. I can imagine the family to be like the one of my Filipina fiancée, who´s father started as a labourer ijn a steel mill and retired as a supervisor. Up to the age of 12, my fiancée lived in a slum, but the family sacrificed everything tom save up for a house out of the slum and to get the best education possible for their 8 children. The result is that of the eight five have college degrees and several are in welpaying jobs (two of them abroad in Europe)
It seems that the girl´s parents also saw education as the best and only way to get out of poverty and made sure that their daughter would go to university.

I also read that one male passenger got roughed up by the six drunkards and got nthrown off the bus when they started torturing the woman. He apparently tried to alert two police officers, who instead, of following up, got on their motorbikes and disappeared. I have a question: Are police officers in India routinely armed? Do they carry radios? I can understand a certain reluctance of being only two and having to face a violent crowd alone being unarmed, but if they had radios to call for assistance and weapons, there is no excuse for their behaviour.

Jan



Jan

[Edited 2013-01-01 08:47:43]

User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/03/20-re...at-stockholm-public-swimming-pool/

This is why Sweden is on the list.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6095 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 47):
This is why Sweden is on the list.

Sweden has a huge problem with immigrant males raping ethnic Swedish females, Oslo has similar problems, most of the rapes which are reported are mainly immigrants, a lot of them still in holding camps. It's disgusting that Western countries are importing filth like this then they wonder why the crimes stats start to climb.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6069 times:

^ With your declining populations thats going to increase, I mean the immigration, and you have only third world countries for that void to be filled.

User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6034 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 49):
^ With your declining populations thats going to increase, I mean the immigration, and you have only third world countries for that void to be filled.

My bold. It is good that you stared this, not the rapes.

In India it looks as if people have had enough, not just of rapes and assaults, but also of politicians, who think that they are above the law:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-...rape-in-Assam/Article1-984534.aspx
A politician of the Congress Party got beaten up by villagers and handed over to the police after he had allegedly raped a woman. (Apparently he got caught in the act).

On the other hand you have things like this:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-...nes-for-girls/Article1-984406.aspx
A village council (?) bans the use of mobile phones and "provocative dress" by girls.  banghead 

Jan

[Edited 2013-01-03 08:13:23]

[Edited 2013-01-03 08:19:11]

[Edited 2013-01-03 08:20:23]

User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 48):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 47):This is why Sweden is on the list.Sweden has a huge problem with immigrant males raping ethnic Swedish females,

That would be third world Muslim immigrant's The politicians who foist these people on their own native population should be hung from the highest flagpole.

Quoting 777way (Reply 49):
With your declining populations thats going to increase, I mean the immigration, and you have only third world countries for that void to be filled.

Declining population is better thatn what they are allowing to happen.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5971 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 50):
A village council (?) bans the use of mobile phones and "provocative dress" by girls. banghead

The King of Swaziland in his 'infinite wisdom' also recently instituted such laws. He's a jerk.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-offenders-facing-months-jail.html



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5900 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 51):

Declining population means lack of manpower leading to others issues, I doubt those countries want that.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5899 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 777way (Reply 53):
I doubt those countries want that.

Politicians don't want it, much of the populace would prefer to cope regardless.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5897 times:

Fact remains Europe needs the third world immigrants they have no choice.

[Edited 2013-01-04 14:54:49]

User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 8
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 44):
Every system and society has its warts. I just find it unreasonable to suggest that on the basis of this incident, India is too dangerous to visit, but that the US is not, despite having its own share of violent crime on a regular basis. There's no moral relativism between them - viewed in sufficient detail, they are both equally horrifying.

Blah blah blah. India has a far lower standard for women's rights than most "developed" countries. De jure and de facto.

India has been labeled the WORST place for a woman in all the G20! Before this nasty ravenous murder!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/23/why-india-bad-for-women

It seems like a lot of North Indian men are savages. And the authorities haven't cared for a long time!



oh boy!!!
User currently onlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5689 posts, RR: 44
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5576 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 777way (Reply 55):
Fact remains Europe needs the third world immigrants they have no choice

Maybe they do but does that also include the expectation(and acceptance) many behave like savages from the middle ages or beyond?

Back to the tragic events in India
I read that the defence .. struggling with using lawyer or attorney to describe him.. has said the fault lies with the victim and her companion because they were out late at night and the unfortunate girl deserved her fate as she was obviously of ill repute.. "Until today I have not seen a single incident or example of rape with a respected lady," he also said her freind was at fault..Sharma said the male companion of the murdered 23-year-old was "wholly responsible" for the incident as the unmarried couple should not have been on the streets at night.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-...-20130110-2ch95.html#ixzz2HYn1IynN

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 44):
I'm suggesting that you do not tar and feather an entire population based on one horrific incident.

A couple of years back there were a few incidents of violence against Indian students in Australia (some no more than a squabble between Indians), didn't stop the Indian media and significant levels of popular opinion branding Australia dangerous place and demanding the Australian Government take action against racist Australians.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5513 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 57):
Back to the tragic events in India
I read that the defence .. struggling with using lawyer or attorney to describe him.. has said the fault lies with the victim and her companion because they were out late at night and the unfortunate girl deserved her fate as she was obviously of ill repute.. "Until today I have not seen a single incident or example of rape with a respected lady," he also said her freind was at fault..Sharma said the male companion of the murdered 23-year-old was "wholly responsible" for the incident as the unmarried couple should not have been on the streets at night.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-...1IynN

I read about that too, and it was one of the most retarded things ive ever heard. Any lawyer with half a brain should be able to shoot right through that defense.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5502 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 58):
I read about that too, and it was one of the most retarded things ive ever heard. Any lawyer with half a brain should be able to shoot right through that defense.

You'd think so. The very fact that this is put forward as a serious defence in a case like this is perhaps the most telling thing about large sections of Indian society and its attitude to women, perhaps more so even than the occurrence of the original offence.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6594 posts, RR: 9
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5503 times:

Well, such defense was common in "civilized" countries not too long ago, when a trial happened, which was not that often.

What will be interesting is to see if it will be effective.

A few months ago there was a gang rape trial here, it happened something like 10 years after the facts since the victims took a few years before denouncing the crimes, then our justice system took its time. The defense was mostly saying that the accused were innocent (since there was no physical evidence) but they were also arguing that "so much time has past, now our clients are integrated, have a family, so it would be unjust to punish them"... They got little sentences or none at all.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineWingsFan From India, joined Oct 2009, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 58):
read about that too, and it was one of the most retarded things ive ever heard. Any lawyer with half a brain should be able to shoot right through that defense.

I agree,
At the same time it must be understood that unlike western countries, in India, the general population does not agree that every accused , even if obviously guilty like this case, need to be defended by an attorney. If you recall, on day 1 of this trial, large mobs , including lawyers , openly opposed any lawyers representing the accused. Most likely the defense attorneys are just appointed by court and trying to go through the motions to get this over with at earliest.

Sad. I think every accused must have a fair chance in court by a competent attorney who is has defendant's interest in mind. Otherwise, public perception will supersede law.

Hopefully, the trial will not be a farce and these scums will still be sent to gallows.

WingsFan.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5502 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WingsFan (Reply 61):
Hopefully, the trial will not be a farce and these scums will still be sent to gallows.

Well, given that you just suggested that it'll be very hard to get proper legal representation, a farce would seem pretty likely.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5452 times:

Quoting WingsFan (Reply 61):

I agree,
At the same time it must be understood that unlike western countries, in India, the general population does not agree that every accused , even if obviously guilty like this case, need to be defended by an attorney. If you recall, on day 1 of this trial, large mobs , including lawyers , openly opposed any lawyers representing the accused. Most likely the defense attorneys are just appointed by court and trying to go through the motions to get this over with at earliest.

Sad. I think every accused must have a fair chance in court by a competent attorney who is has defendant's interest in mind. Otherwise, public perception will supersede law.

Hopefully, the trial will not be a farce and these scums will still be sent to gallows.

WingsFan.

i hope they dont escape somehow and that girl's family gets the justice that she is deserved. It makes me ashamed to be Indian, honestly  . So many people in India think the same way like the rapists do; that its okay to assault women and get away with it!


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5450 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
My heart bleeds for him. Truly.


I am by no means a barbaric person, but may I ask why? If you ask me his life is not worth anything, and it should be taken from him in the worst possible way for what he did.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

Quoting sudden (Reply 64):
I am by no means a barbaric person, but may I ask why? If you ask me his life is not worth anything, and it should be taken from him in the worst possible way for what he did.

He was being sarcastic. Still, I don't like this gloating over the mistreatment of delinquents. These people dehumanized the poor girl, which is terrible enough. What good is there in dehumanizing the rapists in return? It's just even more of a bad thing. Punish them as quickly as possible and let's get it over with.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5269 times:

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report...-gang-rape-victim-s-mother_1788340 . Reading this article makes you want to cry  ...truly a sad state affairs.

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5223 times:

I am against the death penalty. That would be too grateful for them. They should select the worst prison in the country, with the worst inmates. I am sure somewhere in India are awful prisons without any comfort where those devils could spend the rest of their hopeful short lives in nonstop misery.

User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 66):
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report...-gang-rape-victim-s-mother_1788340 . Reading this article makes you want to cry ...truly a sad state affairs.

Reading this it remindes me of my Filipina fiancée and her family: A poor family, where the parents worked hard and spent all their money on the best possible education for their children to get out of poverty. And where the children were expected to perform accordingly, putting education and work first.

As my fiancée says: Up to her twelfth year they lived in a slum. They didn´t have money for luxuries like birthday parties or status symbols, but they always had food on their table and all eight children finished highschool and five of them have college degrees.
Whatever money they didn´t spent on this got saved for a (nice) house in a better neighbourhood, where they moved when my fiancée was twelve. She feels a gratefulness for the education her parent´s sacrifices gave her and now, together with another sister, who is also living in Europe, regularly sends money back to her faily.

I have read somewhere that the girl´s father was a baggage loader at Delhi airport.

Jan

[Edited 2013-01-15 01:02:09]

User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

Quoting na (Reply 67):
They should select the worst prison in the country, with the worst inmates.

I think burning them alive would be far worse than a life in prison.


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 69):
Quoting na (Reply 67):
They should select the worst prison in the country, with the worst inmates.

I think burning them alive would be far worse than a life in prison.

As I have said earlier, I think they should hand them to the public. They will sort it out in the worst possible way.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 57):
Quoting 777way (Reply 55):Fact remains Europe needs the third world immigrants they have no choice
Maybe they do but does that also include the expectation(and acceptance) many behave like savages from the middle ages or beyond?

All five finger are not alike, shit happens, so you get a businessman, a doctor, a teacher, a factory worker and an uncouth charater in the mix.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 57):
Back to the tragic events in India
I read that the defence .. struggling with using lawyer or attorney to describe him.. has said the fault lies with the victim and her companion because they were out late at night and the unfortunate girl deserved her fate as she was obviously of ill repute.. "Until today I have not seen a single incident or example of rape with a respected lady," he also said her freind was at fault..Sharma said the male companion of the murdered 23-year-old was "wholly responsible" for the incident as the unmarried couple should not have been on the streets at night.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-...1IynN

Such attitudes are quite prvealent in many Asian socities, infact a majority hold such views, like it or not.


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 71):
Such attitudes are quite prvealent in many Asian socities, infact a majority hold such views, like it or not.

That itself deserves a public beating! Sorry but this is simply out of order that the defence are even allowed to talk like this.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Quoting sudden (Reply 72):
That itself deserves a public beating! Sorry but this is simply out of order that the defence are even allowed to talk like this.

Well, I'm not really sure what the defense is supposed to say then... This kind of brutality is absolutely indefensible.

Just because the defense is saying that kind of stuff, doesn't mean anybody takes it seriously.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6178 posts, RR: 30
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4898 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I don´t understand. Five of the alleged rapists took at least two weeks to find lawyers, as no one would voluntarily represent them. That is what I read. And out of the blue comes this high and mighty lawyer to do it and uses the very same arguments that have immersed Indian society into a profound rethinking of its attitudes to women? Something fishy here...


MGGS
User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 73):
Well, I'm not really sure what the defense is supposed to say then... This kind of brutality is absolutely indefensible.

Just because the defense is saying that kind of stuff, doesn't mean anybody takes it seriously.


True, but you get my point. If an attorney here in Europe, or US would say something like this after a similar act, god help that attorney, I dare to say.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4554 times:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...a-country-that-degrades-women.html

"In a sense it is fitting that the alleged rapists and murderers lived within touching distance of our politicians. In the 2009 parliamentary elections, India’s political parties fielded 6 candidates charged with rape while 34 candidates were awaiting trial for crimes against women. In the state assemblies, 42 members had rape or associated charges against them at the time of their election. In all, according to a recent report published by the Association for Democratic Reforms, India has over 300 such politicians in power."

"India is a “democracy.” It holds elections, it isn’t headed by a Saddam. Buddhism began in it and, although it’s next-door to Afghanistan and Pakistan, it has no Taliban. These cliches fog out a fact starkly apparent to all who live here, one that Jindal has understood: that India is as it has always been, a jungle made up of rulers and the ruled in which there are, in effect, no rules. A criminal ruling elite has engineered a system of undemocratic governance and judicial delays so ingeniously self-serving that it has been sustained for decades."

I thought it was an eye opening and very pointed article...


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Where's Good To Take A 6 Year Old Girl In NY? posted Wed Oct 17 2007 15:17:52 by Cumulus
Where's Good In L.A For A Six Year Old Girl? posted Fri Feb 16 2007 12:02:05 by Cumulus
Would A 19 Year Old Girl Be Safe On Her Own In LA? posted Thu Mar 3 2005 20:39:36 by Chris78cpr
80 Year Old Shoots Burglar In Chicago posted Thu May 27 2010 09:16:11 by Venus6971
10 Year Old Girl Burnt At Tanning Salon... posted Fri May 1 2009 09:15:11 by Daleaholic
2-Year Old HIV'er In Alabama Denied Access To Pool posted Mon Jul 9 2007 09:18:05 by Johnboy
What A Catch! Giant 90-year-old Fish Reeled In Off posted Fri Apr 6 2007 18:01:57 by Luv2fly
12-Year-Old Boy Becomes 14-Year-Old Girl posted Tue Jan 30 2007 01:18:28 by Luv2fly
Man Who Raped 6-year Old Girl Prisoned For Life posted Fri Dec 1 2006 22:51:02 by Jamesbuk
11-year-old Girl Sexually Assaulted By 20 Boys posted Sat Sep 9 2006 12:43:52 by Rammstein