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Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire  
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

What is wrong with people.

http://news.yahoo.com/firefighters-s...50346447--abc-news-topstories.html

I can not even begin to understand why someone would do something like this.


You can cut the irony with a knife
133 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

1987, during the riots in West Berlin, rioters attacked several fire engines, which were on the way to extinguish a building set on fire by looters. The firefighters had to run for their lives and barricaded themselves into their firestation. The people living in the burning house (an old 5 story apartment block with a liquor store on ground floor) had to fight the fire themselves. The fire engines were torched by the rioters.

Jan


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1213 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare end result is this. Seems like almost everyday stuff in the US I'm afraid.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8791 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):

There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare end result is this.

Oh God, you are being ridiculous. MD11 just posted an example of this sort of thing in a country with restricted access to guns, largely socialized medicine and much less social inequality. We also see the same sort of deadly attacks on police in Greece, Egypt and dozens of other countries. I think I could put in a more rational argument that this is caused by an education and social system that teaches people that they are owed something, and are justified in lashing out if they don't get it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3695 times:
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Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
high social inequality

Judging by the location of the fire and the fact it appears to be on a lake I high doubt social inequity had anything to do with it.

It wouldn't suprise me if the dude wanted to kill himself and was pissed that the fireman showed up. He also might have had some sort of beef with the fire department.

Look at what happened in Indianapolis a few weeks back. Some people blew up their house ( a rather nice looking one too) for insurance money and ended up killing people un the process.

Of course in Detroit fireman have been murdered too (felony murder), but since it didn't happen with a gun the national media ingored it.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121103/METRO01/211030374

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
1987, during the riots in West Berlin, rioters attacked several fire engines, which were on the way to extinguish a building set on fire by looters. The firefighters had to run for their lives and barricaded themselves into their firestation.

That made international news.

Let's not forget about this incident in the UK.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...eatened-with-a-gun-by-rioters.html

But wait; I don't see how this could happen in the UK; guns aren't allowed.... Oh yeah criminals aren't law abiding.   



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3683 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
MD11 just posted an example of this sort of thing in a country with restricted access to guns, largely socialized medicine and much less social inequality.

My recollection (from reading years after the event) of the '87 Berlin riots was that in the midst of a full blown riot Police and Firefighters were attacked with stones and bottles etc.
Somewhat different than first responders coming under seemingly heavy gunfire attending a neigbourhood house fire.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I think I could put in a more rational argument that this is caused by an education and social system that teaches people that they are owed something, and are justified in lashing out if they don't get it.

This part I totally agree with!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):
But wait; I don't see how this could happen in the UK; guns aren't allowed.... Oh yeah criminals aren't law abiding.

Why are you pro-gunners constantly lying? I don't know what else to call it when you have been corrected several times.

1) Guns are allowed in UK. It is very restricted but are allowed.

2) No-one expects a gun ban to reduce murders to 0. The idea is to reduce the number, something UK has been very successful at.


But if you set the bar at 0 then remember it must be the same if guns are allowed. Something that is failing miserably. There are murders in Kennesaw even with it's requirement for every household to be armed.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8404 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare

Most psychopaths here are rather successful and have easy access to cash and healthcare, but thanks for playing. The young shooter in Connecticut was from a millionaire banker family. The Unabomber and Joker Killer were both intellectuals arguably at the top of society.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were both from stable, middle class families. Klebold, Harris, the Joker Killer, Lanza and the Unabomber all had significant interactions with, and access to, psychiatrists.

There is a pattern here; just not the pattern people might have assumed.

Cho, the Virginia Tech killer, had many encounters with psychiatrists but was not involuntarily committed to a facility, which he apparently should have been. Reading more about him (which is depressing), he was angry at "rich kids" and lots of other things.

These monsters should not have access to guns. If psychiatrists would flag them early, preventing gun buys, that would help.

[Edited 2012-12-24 10:36:56]

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Not good,

This guy is a stone cold killer plain and simple.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3641 times:
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Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Why are you pro-gunners constantly lying? I don't know what else to call it when you have been corrected several times.

Was the gun used in this story legally owned?

How many gun related crimes are there in the UK committed by those that have legal guns? I am not talking about people being charged with a crime who defend themselves and their property.


If you think I am lying you need to examine the lies anti gunners tell so they can get their point across, but then again they are only lies when it doesn't fly with your political convictions.

The NRA had a great piece about the rise in knife crime in the UK back in 2007 and I chalked it up to hype to they could get their point across that guns bans don't work. When I took my first trip to the UK in 2008 I read about many knife crimes in the newspaper, including a story about the huge number of teens who carry knives in UK schools. I was amazed to see that the NRA was right on the money about what it said about knives in the UK. I have spent time in Yorkshire several times since 2008 and I read about knife crime about as much as read about gun crime in Detroit.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
Was the gun used in this story legally owned?

Don't know. Doesn't matter. No-one suggesting gun restrictions suggest it will end all crime.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
If you think I am lying you need to examine the lies anti gunners tell so they can get their point across, but then again they are only lies when it doesn't fly with your political convictions.

If you see lies call them out. It isn't a free ticket for you to lie.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
The NRA had a great piece about the rise in knife crime in the UK back in 2007

With guns being mostly out of the picture of course knifes become the weapon of choice. So what. I'm still much less likely to be murdered by a knife in UK than I am by a gun in US.

More importantly, knifes do not kill and injure bystanders the way guns do.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
When I took my first trip to the UK in 2008 I read about many knife crimes in the newspaper, including a story about the huge number of teens who carry knives in UK schools.

Actually a few years ago the Scottish medical association wanted to ban pointed knives and knives above a certain length, including kitchen knives. They even quoted some chefs that long and pointed knives are not really needed in kitchen work. In Limerick, Ireland, a few years ago, the favourite gangland weapon was a box cutter with two blades inserted sife by side, with a matchstick inbetween. This would cause two parallel cuts impossible to stitch back together for a surgeon.
Also, since the handgun ban, Britain has been swamped with illegal guns. Guns have become a status symbol among gangsters, including teenagers, to show how tough they are and that they are not afraid of the cops. Quite a few people got killed by accidentally getting caught in gunfights or drive by shootings.

During the last riots in the UK some ethnic groups (mainly Indians especially ther Sikhs, Pakistanis and Turks) decided to defend their neighbourhoods and set up barricades. The men behind them were armed with tools, like axes or machetes, but also with traditional weapons, like swords and spears. Their neighbourhoods did not get touched by looters, even though looters were seen checking out the neighbourhoods.

Jan


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7132 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
How many gun related crimes are there in the UK committed by those that have legal guns? I am not talking about people being charged with a crime who defend themselves and their property.

How much gun related crime happens in the UK, very little in comparison to the US, probably due to the difficulty in purchasing guns and the tight restrictions on what kind of guns people are allowed to own. But I'm talking to a brick wall aren't I?


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3548 times:
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Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
I'm still much less likely to be murdered by a knife in UK than I am by a gun in US.

You aren't likely to be killed at all if you stay out of drug infested gang controlled parts of country.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
How much gun related crime happens in the UK, very little in comparison to the US

Cinsidering the UK is smaller than the state of Michigan, by about 2000 square miles, I would say much less. If you take the drug related violence out of Michigan I would bet the gun crime numbers are similar.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Actually a few years ago the Scottish medical association wanted to ban pointed knives and knives above a certain length, including kitchen knives

That was reported in the US too. That just goes to show that people really want to stop killing and that killing is a problem regardless of how it is accomplished. Murder is already against the law and that doesn't stop people from doing it in a seemingly endless variety of ways.

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
If you see lies call them out

The biggest one of all.... "kids can buy guns at gun shows" I hear it all the time. You can't even get in a gun show unless you are 18 or with a parent. About half of my guns were purchased at gun shows and I go to them all the time. I never once saw a kid buying a gun, or even allowed to touch one at a gun show.

I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
But I'm talking to a brick wall aren't I?

Yep... I cling to my guns and religion. I just don't fit the stereotype because I'm well educated and I travel. Oddly I became more right wing as I became educated.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Most psychopaths here are rather successful and have easy access to cash and healthcare

For the most part the high profile shooters come from a background far different than your average drug dealer/street gang criminal.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

My AR lower was bought at a gun show and the dealer ran the criminal background check.....he borrowed my cell to do it since he couldn't get bars on his in the building!


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

Falstaff,

But I think that you agree that gun ownership requires responsibility. I´m quite sure that your collection has been locked away safely and that you wouldn´t want to leave guns and ammo around where children can get at them. I´m also sure that you agree that minimum safety training standards should be adhered to. And that persons with mental issues should not get access to guns (coming back to the issue of storing guns safely).

Jan


User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!


The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3512 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

Canada most certainly has guns available. Remember, most of the country is wilderness.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21522 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3489 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

There are private sellers at gun shows too, and they're not required to do background checks.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3469 times:
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Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

It does....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/guns-notori...till-not-prohibited-234352117.html

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
I´m quite sure that your collection has been locked away safely and that you wouldn´t want to leave guns and ammo around where children can get at them

That depends on your opinion... My house is locked and I have an alarm system that includes motion sensors in the room that I store my guns. Some people would say that isn't good enough and demand that they be stored in massive safes. Considering I have no children and children never come to my house I think that is good enough.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 18):
most of the country is wilderness.

and has a smaller population than California.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
And that persons with mental issues should not get access to guns

I totally agree. I took my concealed pistol class with a man with Cerebral palsy. He worked in a bad neighborhood and was afraid to be a victim because of his disability. He didn't move too fast. He passed the training class without a problem. Some people with cerebral palsy I wouldn't want owning a gun, but in this guy's case I didn't see a problem.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
I´m also sure that you agree that minimum safety training standards should be adhered to

I wouldn't be opposed to safety training. There are a lot of gun owners who are hurt because they don't know how to use them correctly. I learned gun safety as a child, in the Boy Scouts, and if a child can learn it easily than so can adults. Of course that kind of thinking goes with a lot of dangerous things. I am amzed at the number of people who are injured by their lawn mowers and snowblowers, but they can be safely operated by 10 year old if they have the correct training.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
I wouldn't be opposed to safety training. There are a lot of gun owners who are hurt because they don't know how to use them correctly. I learned gun safety as a child, in the Boy Scouts, and if a child can learn it easily than so can adults. Of course that kind of thinking goes with a lot of dangerous things. I am amzed at the number of people who are injured by their lawn mowers and snowblowers, but they can be safely operated by 10 year old if they have the correct training.

When I was about 5 years old my dad had to work in the mountains of northern Spain in a very remote area. One evening, while we were having our supper in the village in, a squad of Spanish soldiers, who were having a training eercise in the region, came in. The sergeant and my father got into a conversation (my father spoke fluent Castillian Spanish and Catalan), with one topic being the sergeant´s sidearm (I think it was a Llama pistol). The sergeant cleared it and handed it to my father. I was also allowed to handle it and I immediately got a stern talking to by both the sergeant and my father when I didn´t point it just at the floor. This was a lection I always remembered: Never point a gun at anything you don´t want to destroy and always treat any gun as loaded.

Jan


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Oh boy, I'm starting to think this thread will be locked before it's over with.

Back to the topic of the thread, similar even happened in St. Louis a few years back.

http://voices.yahoo.com/st-louis-fir...er-ambushed-line-duty-1707047.html



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

Oh we have plenty of guns. Difference is we aren't bent on killing each other. The right to life outweighs the right to enjoy firearms, even when the intent is to use them appropriately. I guess that sucks for gun enthusiasts that their freedoms will probably be impinged by gun control legislation, my heart bleeds for them. But honestly, they enjoy something that generally has one purpose; to take life. Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in. 'Merica!


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2743 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 23):
Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in. 'Merica!

Wow,

Its rare that we can agree on something, but this is one of those times.

That constitution, rights, bills, and amendments. Just get on and change the damn thing.

The world is sick to the back teeth of waking up to yet another US shooting, and witnessing more innocents killed.....

This time it was, Firefighters.

Who next, doctors, nursers, old people who cant fight back ?

Just so a few don't their "rights" impinged. Get real America, you are better than this BS.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
You aren't likely to be killed at all if you stay out of drug infested gang controlled parts of country.

Tell that to all of you who insist you need to walk around with loaded weapons all the time. But it still stands that you are more likely to get killed here in US than in UK.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
That just goes to show that people really want to stop killing and that killing is a problem regardless of how it is accomplished.

Do you lock your door? It doesn't stop burglars...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
The biggest one of all.... "kids can buy guns at gun shows"

Can't say I have seen it stated here. That the rules are different on gun shows I've seen but not that kids can by them. On the other hand, straw man purchases are stated as a common way for underage to get weapons.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

As long as they are FFL, absolutely. However, sales isn't made just by dealers. And I have no idea how this gives you the right to flat out lie.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Considering I have no children and children never come to my house I think that is good enough.

I don't. Someone breaking in should not be able to get your guns that easily. If you do not have them in a safe at least have locks on them.


25 mham001 : If only that were the case, but believe it - you won't be missed.
26 EA CO AS : Stop lying. It's all the gun's fault, remember? Signed, The Anti-2nd Amendment Howler Monkeys of A.net
27 scbriml : Square mileage has nothing to do with it. Average number of gun-related deaths per year in the UK hovers around the 50-60 mark. In the US it's close
28 Post contains images TheCommodore : Astounding.... Lets hear the pro gun nuts defend those figures with BS arguments about how America is safe
29 mham001 : You fail to understand that nobody here really cares what you think. You don't have to come here, in fact you have repeatedly said you won't come her
30 TheCommodore : You see, at the end of the day, that's all you can muster. Personal attacks, Pathetic . BTW, Have been to the US plenty of times and will continue to
31 RussianJet : I had no idea Michigan had a population of sixty million. Great comparison.
32 Aaron747 : It's not even that. One of the things I've noticed about American culture since living abroad is that when I compare to Australians, Kiwis, Canadians
33 Post contains links ltbewr : Some info on this deadly attack: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...randmother-in-1980-police-say?lite As the link notes, this sick bastard killed
34 Arrow : There's no need to change or modify the 2nd Amendment. Simply attach some administrative rider to it that says that the only guns you can own are tho
35 MD11Engineer : Referring to the post above: In most cases of massacres (school or workplace shootings) I know the killers had their guns illegally, or, in a case in
36 Post contains images YVRLTN : The answer is obvious - when youre done arming all the teachers, arm the firefighters too
37 DeltaMD90 : Such a nonchalant attitude regarding taking some people's rights away... sad I think us gun owners should be for measures to keep gun ownership safer
38 MD11Engineer : Historically in Europe from the middle ages on weapons and especially firearms were the privilege of the ruling class. They were issued to the great u
39 Post contains links falstaff : The gun shows I go to only allow trade with an FFL holder. Sales outside of the show area and not done with an FFL holder are illegal. If you don't b
40 Post contains links cmf : As you know each state set their own rules. "Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks
41 Powerslide : What are you talking about? There is a massive difference between a soldier having a rifle and a civy that uses one for pure recreation. The only one
42 falstaff : If we really are so hated then why do immigrants keep pouring in? Everybody should feel their country is the greatest. It is natural, just like peopl
43 MD11Engineer : Read my short ecert on history. Who´s orders do the soldiers or police officers obey if it comes to a crunch? Hint: in 1930s Germany almost all foll
44 cmf : No, everyone should understand what is great about their country. To claim it is the greatest without understanding what is is great and what isn't i
45 MD11Engineer : Well, I have a collection of deactivated WW2 weapons including some submachine guns plus a replica percussion black powder Shaps carbine from the Amer
46 L-188 : $150? I assume it isn't fire rated. I was looking at some and the ones I saw where starting out at $1200 up to $2500 dollars. But thesecrecactual fire
47 MD11Engineer : No, it is not fire rated, but it fullfills the legal requirements for being burglarproof (when it is bolted to a concrete floor / brick wall) for lon
48 cmf : Good common sense law.
49 yyz717 : Well said. A good argument for gun control. Don't forget hospital workers! 3 were shot last week. Seriously, the US needs to ban guns, all guns. The
50 cptkrell : yyz717; I would submit that if the US banned guns, "...all guns." as per your suggestion, the US would have a far more serious gun crime statistic tha
51 RussianJet : Based on.....?
52 MD11Engineer : Burglarproof in this case means that the burglar can´t just jimmy a lock open. He will have to use at least an angle grinder to cut out the lock (wh
53 cptkrell : RussianJet; based on the irrefutable fact that criminals and the deranged don't care about laws and bans and such. Ban all guns in the US and only the
54 kiwirob : Cerebral palsy is a physical condition not a mental ne. but what about the other 20,000 odd thousand deaths caused by guns in the US which isn't rela
55 MD11Engineer : I think that quite a few could be prevented by mandatory safety training and storage requirements. Suicides can´t really be prevented. If somebody i
56 cptkrell : KiwiRob; I don't know what additional 20,000 deaths you are referring to. Maybe the numbers list I posted was inaccurate? regards...jack
57 kiwirob : All those not classified as homicide, which is 20,000 or so.
58 Pyrex : And yet I feel a lot safer going out at night in most areas in the U.S. than your regular high-street pub in the U.K. after closing hours... the most
59 cptkrell : kiwirob; my bad. I was subconsciously not doing correct math from my own post. However, close to those 20,000 are suicides, so that in itself tells yo
60 MD11Engineer : Uh, this was not my quote. Jan
61 Pyrex : Yeah, sorry, my bad, probably had it highlighted when I pressed the button on your post. Was referring to your whole post 38.
62 falstaff : I have known several people who have killed themselves in the last 20 years. One was with a gun, One hanged himself, two died of intentional overdose
63 cmf : Combine it with an alarm and we have reasonable assurance they will not be stolen. The way it should be. Funny. I spend a lot of time in UK and have
64 MD11Engineer : As I said, I like shooting and I´m interested in the historical side of military weapons, but in Germany I wouldn´t carry a gun. Unless the situati
65 Post contains images cmf : I have never felt the need to be armed. There are areas I have avoided because it didn't feel right. I have seen areas in Europe, America, Asia and A
66 MD11Engineer : The region in the Philippines I mean is the province of Lanao del Sur and the adjoining Muslim provinces. The problem is not that the majority of the
67 Post contains links Newark727 : Completely different. My camera may look threatening and have mental connections people might feel threatened by, but those are mental connections on
68 DeltaMD90 : To be fair, I wouldn't include suicides in that number... very misleading. We are still higher but it is reduced by ~2/3s
69 cptkrell : Newark727; as I stated before, if all guns were banned in the U.S., then only the "bad guys" would have them. That's position and I'm sticking with it
70 Newark727 : That's almost besides the point. Japan and the U.K. have way fewer guns than the United States does; presumably only the "bad guys" have them there a
71 Flighty : Definitely the task of killing people (or self) is made easier or harder depending on exactly what tools for killing people are easily available. I d
72 cptkrell : Newark727; if as you say (reply70) "What you're (me) worried about is who would have guns afterward, and I find that a difficult thing to get very wor
73 MD11Engineer : Hunting rifles (except for small game and vermin) are more powerful than military assault rifles. They shoot a much stronger, larger (and heavier) ro
74 kiwirob : Where were walking around, Amsterdam is a very nice safe place to wander around at any time of day or night, I think you are just saying this for eff
75 Maverick623 : Seriously, it's never going to happen, ever. The term in English is "being overrun".
76 DeltaMD90 : That is a strange reason to argue against guns, but if you feel that way, I respect it. I still think it's misleading when it's referred to as "gun v
77 Dreadnought : Not counting the suicides, There are about 12,000 deaths that you are talking about. There are around 300 million guns in the US, so that's 1 death p
78 cmf : How about honest use of statistics.
79 Dreadnought : How was it dishonest?
80 Mir : As idiotic is drunk driving is, you can't compare it to someone pointing a gun at someone else and intentionally pulling the trigger. I doubt very ma
81 jetmech : What a sad situation. Apparently, one of those murdered was only 19 years old. I wonder what the NRA types have to say about this? More guns I suppos
82 Newark727 : That's not really what I was arguing there; you were contesting the number of gun deaths because of the suicide statistic but I feel that it's a vali
83 Aaron747 : The UK also has a huge problem with violent crime per capita though, similar to the US. You simply cannot bring east Asian societies, and especially
84 Dreadnought : They get behind the wheel tipsy knowing full well the risks - drunk driving is hardly an unknown issue. It is no better than playing Russian Roulette
85 kiwirob : I think to the average American a car is far more important than a gun, if it was a choice between cars and guns which do you think would win out?
86 AR385 : I´m sorry Kiwirob, but falstaff is right. The only time I´ve ever been mugged was in Amsterdam. By a huge dutch, drunk guy with a pretty big knife.
87 Jetmech : I can fully empathise with the sentiments expressed by L. N. Smith, but really, it still doesn't answer my question. An adverse situation involving a
88 cmf : Because you are directly comparing data that isn't equal. In practice you're saying that US defense spending should be equal to Andorra's since they
89 FlyPNS1 : Except this is no longer true in the United States. We the People have chosen to equip our government with a military that is so powerful that it cou
90 Post contains links and images Aaron747 : Based on CDC data from 2008 that tracks gun-source deaths including suicides and homicides, some reporters at The Atlantic mapped US metropolitan are
91 cmf : I'm sorry but I think that is a very dangerous conclusion. The source you quoted states there is no such coalition "Our previous state-level analysis
92 DeltaMD90 : I'm not going to pretend anything and cook up any argument like others have... yes, there is a "line" that needs to be drawn. You are right, you can'
93 MD11Engineer : Where is the Airforce, Marine Corps and Navy of the Taliban? Where are their tanks? Where are their nukes? Still they are kicking NATO´s @rrse as th
94 FlyPNS1 : Not comparable. The Taliban hide in caves and remote mountains. Most Americans live in traditional cities/towns that could easily be taken down. Few
95 DeltaMD90 : Sigh... I've said it many times... no one needs them. I've been saying over and over that the extreme majority use them safely, and yes, they are use
96 FlyPNS1 : But why does it work everyone up? Why does banning something that no one has any need for like semi-automatic weapons cause people to get worked up?
97 Geezer : It sounded like a VERY "honest use" of statistics to me ! (Of course to a lib, NOTHING "makes sense" unless THEY said it..........) Mir.......I would
98 Post contains images TheCommodore : So what are you doing with this rant....? Lecturing, no ? BTW. The European honey bee causes more deaths in Australia every year than snakes do ! Lik
99 cmf : I'm sure it does to you. But somehow you don't think it is reasonable to compare US to other countries. Despite that being much more similar data.
100 Aaron747 : That's the conclusion at the *state* level. The conclusions at the city level tell us most of what any reasonable person needs to know about the situ
101 cmf : Racial??? Dangerous because there is nothing in the report supporting the drug connection. It is an element you added by yourself.
102 Mir : Show me where I blamed this one on the gun. I blame it on the fact that this guy, with a criminal record, was able to get a gun. But in order to stop
103 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Well I really don't know what to tell ya. You either get it or you don't. People who very much enjoy shooting and never in a million years would use
104 Aaron747 : Empirically, inner city crime is largely drug-related. I didn't add it by myself. What do you think all major American cities' police departments hav
105 jetmech : I'll definitely do more reading on the subject, but from what I have looked at so far, the right to bear arms has never been a guaranteed freedom in
106 cmf : Please show me where in the report they make the connection because all I could find stated the opposite, as you saw in the text I quoted. You're sta
107 Post contains links Aaron747 : Based on the CDC data, almost 60 percent of U.S. firearm homicides occur in the 62 cities of the country’s 50 largest metros. However, only 27 perce
108 FlyPNS1 : I can see why it would upset people to lose their hobby, but I think people need to grow up and realize some hobbies are fundamentally unhealthy. The
109 cmf : The first report and the text you quoted from it state nothing about how much is drug related. You use that it happens in a city as proof it is drug
110 Post contains images Aaron747 : Yeah OK, young males under 25 in inner city America are shooting each other for sh*ts and giggles, got it.
111 Post contains links cmf : Classy, if it isn't due to drugs it must be for sh*ts and giggles... Provide some statistics to support your claim that most are related to drugs ins
112 Flighty : Cities are complex and involve inflows and outflows of people (_different_ kinds of people). A city with gun violence is likely a place from which af
113 DeltaMD90 : Eh, I don't really buy it. Reminds me of the "violent video games makes people violent" line. I see it in gang life but I think it that regard, the g
114 Aaron747 : That entire report is a treatise focused on drug users and why they are not to blame for all of society's ills. There is plenty of data on drug users
115 cmf : So we are back to no data. Thus making conclusions is, dangerous.
116 Geezer : Mir, you may know a lot about airplanes, but you sure don't know ANYTHING about the NRA ! I'll be happy to ! Right after you show me ANYTHING that in
117 Geezer : So.........anything that you don't agree with automatically becomes a "rant", eh ? But to answer your question Mr. "Commodore"............I'm stating
118 Aaron747 : In the absence of object data it is often necessary to treat other related information inferentially. You may require a direct relationship in terms
119 Mir : Perhaps "support" was too strong a word. They've put a lot of effort into making it hard to stop criminals from getting guns, though, so I'll revise
120 cmf : Without data there is only an assumption. Assume = Ass + u + me
121 Aaron747 : Oh for crying out loud. Assumptions have to be made before one even knows where to start looking for the data to investigate. A hypothesis is essenti
122 cmf : Cry all you want. Without data all you have is a theory you like.
123 Aaron747 : The same can be said of hoping for total gun control that will magically solve everything. The root of the problem is still there.
124 cmf : More unsupported conclusions.
125 Geezer : I was just making a point; when I said "if i was afraid of snakes.........But I'm NOT ! Look; when I was much younger, I was intensely interested in
126 StarAC17 : When mentally ill you are only flagged as such if there is a system in place to identify and treat them pro-actively and any infrastructure that woul
127 YVRLTN : According to the news in YVR this afternoon, his female neighbor purchased them for him fully in the know of what he wanted them for. In fact, he eve
128 Post contains links and images jetmech : No worries, I did miss the part where you said "if" in your original post. Interestingly, I read an article in the Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) today
129 stealthz : Actually there were, If you go past that incredibly useless and counter intuitive graphic(that didn't even work on some browsers.) The underlying dat
130 Geezer : Here's something that I think everyone in other countries should think about, when attempting to understand what's "going on" in the U.S.............
131 stealthz : Trying to paint the rest of the world as simpletons whose only knowledge of the USA is what they get from movies... and ranting about the current cro
132 windy95 : You cannot compare the two societies. The inner cities of the US are where most of this happens and much of it is from the gangs and drug trade. It i
133 Geezer : I'm not entirely certain what you mean when you say "infringing on someones right to profile them.......... The word "profile" has become a dirty wor
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