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NYC Right On Red  
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1847 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 days ago) and read 2396 times:
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In NYC there is one traffic law that is reversed from pretty much the rest of the entire US. In NYC you are prohibited from making a right turn on red a red light unless otherwise posted. Why is this? I don't see any benefit of it. Even if there is a benefit of it in say midtown, why outside of midtown? The outer boroughs certainly don't need such a restriction.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 days ago) and read 2384 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Thread starter):
Even if there is a benefit of it in say midtown, why outside of midtown? The outer boroughs certainly don't need such a restriction.

Too many pedestrians around, even in the outer boroughs. Maybe not during the nighttime, but then it becomes a question of when you have the law in effect and when you don't. It's not a big deal to wait an extra thirty seconds or so for the light to turn green.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2362 times:
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I disagree. Outside midtown and maybe a few other areas of Brooklyn and Queens the level of pedestrians are similar to any other major city. Stopping before making the turn which is the requirement would eliminate pedestrian risk if you ask me. If anything the hardest thing about driving is when that light turns green trying to make that right turn as now all the pedestrians have the walk sign on the street you are trying to turn onto.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 2):
Stopping before making the turn which is the requirement would eliminate pedestrian risk if you ask me.

Except that people wouldn't do it. Traffic rules are not followed very closely in NYC.

You'd have more people getting hit by cars if right turns on red were allowed, I guarantee it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2598 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Too many pedestrians around, even in the outer boroughs.
Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
You'd have more people getting hit by cars if right turns on red were allowed, I guarantee it.

My personal experience says you're wrong. The only city in Canada where I was almost ran over by a car while crossing an intersection is Montreal. It happens to be the only city with no right turns on red in Canada too.
As I see it, the problem isn't the rule - the problem is the driver's mentality and nothing will change that.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 4):
My personal experience says you're wrong.

Well, I live in NYC, and I both drive and walk a lot in the city, so I'm willing to stand by my statement.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 4):
As I see it, the problem isn't the rule - the problem is the driver's mentality and nothing will change that.

Correct. Sometimes you just have to adapt the rules to the prevailing mentality, and this is one of those times.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Except that people wouldn't do it. Traffic rules are not followed very closely in NYC.

You'd have more people getting hit by cars if right turns on red were allowed, I guarantee it.
Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Well, I live in NYC, and I both drive and walk a lot in the city, so I'm willing to stand by my statement.

I will agree with you. People think that drivers in the Northeast are like everywhere else in the US. They most certainly are not...

I grew up and lived in Boston for 28 years AND dated a girl in NYC for 5 years. Anyone who quips saying otherwise isn't familiar with how it works "up here"

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 4):
As I see it, the problem isn't the rule - the problem is the driver's mentality and nothing will change that.

That is correct, and that is not going to change with a rule change. What's done is done



All that being said, I live in Hawai'i now where I feel like my head is going to explode at every intersection. But that's me...and I have some self-work to do!  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2319 times:
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It's true that there is no city like NY but this is the only city that has this restriction. I find it hard to believe that without this rule people would be getting run over so frequently. As I said earlier I feel it's more dangerous to a pedestrian when people try to make a right turn on the green light when there is a mass off people crossing the street infront of a car turning. That to me seems much more dangerous. I also live, drive and walk in NY and I dont see my danger of a pedestrian much higher.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Hi!

Many thanks. Interesting thing to read. i can't really say what is right and wrong etc. as i really know nothing about it. However I will say that for me as someone who lives in Europe going to America and seeing this "turning right on red" was quite strange at first to say the least. I have never driven in NY but in other places after I while I got used to it and it seemed quite sensible and effective. In many places I went though there were very few pedestrians around in suburbs and stuff.

Another thing I wanted to mention was stop signs! This is actually quite serious I think. There is no requirement for someone with a UK license to really learn American driving laws and I never understood stop signs very well, particularly two way and even sometimes 4 way stop signs. I know it's probably really simple but I remember when I got there driving around with these things I really didn't know what I was doing and could have caused an accident. Maybe Alamo should give us a leaflet or maybe I should have just looked it up online!

Many thanks.


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3580 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2299 times:

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 8):
Another thing I wanted to mention was stop signs! This is actually quite serious I think. There is no requirement for someone with a UK license to really learn American driving laws and I never understood stop signs very well, particularly two way and even sometimes 4 way stop signs. I know it's probably really simple but I remember when I got there driving around with these things I really didn't know what I was doing and could have caused an accident. Maybe Alamo should give us a leaflet or maybe I should have just looked it up online!

Agreed to some extent....I think a lot of our interesting traffic situations in the US could be EASILY solved by rotarys, traffic circles, roundabouts, whatever you want to call them....

However, they aren't. And I can't understand why. Thoughts?



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2297 times:

Hi!

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 9):
Agreed to some extent....I think a lot of our interesting traffic situations in the US could be EASILY solved by rotarys, traffic circles, roundabouts, whatever you want to call them....

However, they aren't. And I can't understand why. Thoughts?

Many thanks. This is a good question I think. There is probably some historical reason how it ended up that way maybe. I remember once I came across a roundabout in Florida and it was quite strange! I think my mind went blank as to which way I should go round it! D'Oh!

But they probably save a lot of money at least with the small roundabouts. Here in the UK I think over the last maybe 10 years I think tons of mini-roundabouts popped up in places where they used to have "give way" signs and 4 way meetings and stuff. I think this was mainly to stop accidents and I think it did work.

However part of me is thinking maybe it is cheaper to just plant a few stop signs than make a mound and paint a circle so maybe multiplied by a million they might think it's too expensive? However I really know nothing about it and am just making uneducated guesses! Sorry.

Many thanks.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1847 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
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Quoting Ps762 (Reply 8):
Another thing I wanted to mention was stop signs! This is actually quite serious I think. There is no requirement for someone with a UK license to really learn American driving laws and I never understood stop signs very well, particularly two way and even sometimes 4 way stop signs. I know it's probably really simple but I remember when I got there driving around with these things I really didn't know what I was doing and could have caused an accident. Maybe Alamo should give us a leaflet or maybe I should have just looked it up online!



Stop signs are for smaller roads crossing secondary roads. Basically a low travelled road that crosses a slightly more travelled road. There places where stop signs are at roads that really should have a traffic light the 1 that comes to my mind is the I95 off ramp for SAV. I think the finally did put a light there recently. A four way stop is for 2 low travelled secondary roads. Basically enough traffic that all lanes should stop for a moment to regulate traffic but not enough to warrant a light. At a four-way stop the rule is the first one there gets to go unless you are making a left turn the you are supposed to yield to the oncoming traffic then turn.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Hi!

Many thanks. You know I have driven quite a lot and never knew that left turn rule about the 4 way at all. Plus are you meant to come to a stop at every stop sign even if nowone is around? I think I heard that.

If I remember right the 2 ways would scare me where you would be travelling down some faster road and crossing over and hoping the people would stop on the perpendicualar road. Plus I think once or twice I even missed the two way sign and crossed over which could have been very dangerous.

Anyway sorry I went totally off topic. But at least I learnt a bit.

Many thanks.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13035 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

Newark, NJ and surrounding Essex Co. had a similar rule at one time too. Perhaps the major reason in NYC is to make sure crossing traffic on a green light has a chance to get through intersections in areas with heavy traffic and a high demand to make right turns (like near river crossings - bridges and tunnels and on/off major streets and avenues).

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7583 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

When I learned to drive a right turn on red was illegal in Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma, and a couple years later when I was in California.

I see a lot of intersections in Dallas where a right turn on red should be illegal. Because of restricted sight lines for the driver or for pedestrians.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 12):
Plus are you meant to come to a stop at every stop sign even if nowone is around? I think I heard that.

Legally, yes, you are suppose to come to a complete stop. In reality most people do what is called a "rolling stop," in which they slow way down to where they could stop if necessary but never actually physically stop. That is technically illegal though, so don't do that if there is a cop around.

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 12):
If I remember right the 2 ways would scare me where you would be travelling down some faster road and crossing over and hoping the people would stop on the perpendicualar road.

Yes it is very annoying when someone looks like they are not going to stop in time, if at all. In situations like that you should just always have your foot hovering over the brake, not on the gas pedal.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

You can turn right on red on Staten Island, which is the least densely populated borough.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 11):
At a four-way stop the rule is the first one there gets to go unless you are making a left turn the you are supposed to yield to the oncoming traffic then turn

Maybe in New York but in Florida it is all about the order you get there. Doesn't matter if you're turning left or not.

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 12):
Plus are you meant to come to a stop at every stop sign even if nowone is around? I think I heard that.

I'm sorry but where did you get a drivers license? I don't know anyplace where this isn't drilled.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 7):
As I said earlier I feel it's more dangerous to a pedestrian when people try to make a right turn on the green light when there is a mass off people crossing the street infront of a car turning.

There would still be the mass of people crossing the street, except they'd be right in front of the car instead of as the car started to make the turn.

If you wanted to eliminate that, you'd have to go to a three-cycle light - one cycle for one street, one cycle for the perpendicular street, and one cycle for pedestrians only.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2296 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Thread starter):
In NYC you are prohibited from making a right turn on red a red light unless otherwise posted. Why is this?

The actual law in New York state doesn't name NYC specifically, but rather prohibits turns on red in cities with over 1 million population, unless the intersection is marked to permit it. NYC is currently the only city in NYS that meets that criteria, and I'd imagine it is due to traffic congestion and safety.

What many people don't realize is that LEFT turns on red, from a one way street onto another one way street, is also legal, however the vast majority of such intersections are in NYC. According to the AAA, a left on red is actually legal in 46 states.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2117 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 19):
What many people don't realize is that LEFT turns on red, from a one way street onto another one way street, is also legal, however the vast majority of such intersections are in NYC. According to the AAA, a left on red is actually legal in 46 states.

In Miami people are well aware of it. Well, they forget about the from one way street part...


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2116 times:
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Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 11):
At a four-way stop the rule is the first one there gets to go unless you are making a left turn the you are supposed to yield to the oncoming traffic then turn

Maybe in New York but in Florida it is all about the order you get there. Doesn't matter if you're turning left or not.

In Switzerland, it's about who gets there first, but in the case where 2 or more get there at the same time to a 4-way stop, you have to yield to those coming from the right. If you're all 4 arriving at the same time, you have to make signs and agree on who goes first (but that's theoretical, never happened to me). Isn't this rule valid in the US as well?

Quoting Ps762 (Reply 8):
Another thing I wanted to mention was stop signs! This is actually quite serious I think. There is no requirement for someone with a UK license to really learn American driving laws and I never understood stop signs very well, particularly two way and even sometimes 4 way stop signs.

Wait, what? You don't have stop signs in the UK? I'm pretty sure I saw some when visiting London (although I didn't drive myself).



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 21):
In Switzerland, it's about who gets there first, but in the case where 2 or more get there at the same time to a 4-way stop, you have to yield to those coming from the right. If you're all 4 arriving at the same time, you have to make signs and agree on who goes first (but that's theoretical, never happened to me). Isn't this rule valid in the US as well?

It is.


User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

Hi!

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 21):
Wait, what? You don't have stop signs in the UK? I'm pretty sure I saw some when visiting London (although I didn't drive myself).

Yes we do have stop signs here you are right. But for some reason they are kinda different in the Us to me. Like I don't think we have the 2 way thing where one big road crosses a small road and we don't have the 4 way stop thing. I don't know it just seems different to me in the USA. Maybe it is just me.

Hope it might clear things up.

Many thanks.


User currently offlinePs762 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2012, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2105 times:

Hi!

Quoting cmf (Reply 17):
I'm sorry but where did you get a drivers license? I don't know anyplace where this isn't drilled.

Sorry I guess I should have been clearer. In the UK yuo generally do stop at all stop signs but sometimes in the US I would come across stop signs in like really quiet residential areas with like 4 way stops with nowone around for miles and stuff. These were the times I was kinda referring to.

Sorry.

Many thanks.


25 okie : There are no "right turns on red" in New Orleans, I can not answer about the rest of Louisiana. Ususally around here you let the oldest/wrecked vehic
26 aznmadsci : These are the worse to run! Parents would get livid if people ran stop signs, especially where the kids play. And in some neighborhoods I know if it
27 FlyDeltaJets : They do that a lot in NYC as well, NYPD loves to pull people over for rolling stops. Any time that I have ever gone to traffic court for something. I
28 Post contains images moose135 : When they installed Red Light Cameras in Nassau County on Long Island a few years back, a large number of the tickets issued were for rolling right o
29 Post contains images dc9northwest : It's easiest to just read what the sign says and obey it. It says stop, so that's what you should do. People who don't fully stop at stop signs... I
30 N1120A : Yes it is. It is less efficient to not have right on red. We seem more obsessed with traffic lights here. The Canadians, especially in Ontario, have
31 FlyDeltaJets : No you can't unless the intersection is marked to say you can do so. The only places in NYC limits the law doesn't apply to is within JFK airport.
32 Airstud : Doesn't have to become a question; the hours of the ban are posted on the sign. "NO TURN ON RED, 7am-9am AND 4pm-6pm," says one sign near where I liv
33 KaiGywer : We have some linked to the traffic lights here. So if there is a left turn lane in the opposing direction of you (their left turn would put them on t
34 Polot : I have also seen them linked to crosswalk buttons before. If someone hits it to cross the street a no right turn sign will illuminate when the pedest
35 Mir : It is somewhat less efficient, yes. It is still not a big deal. -Mir
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