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Petition Against Westboro Baptist Church As...  
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 5
Posted (1 year 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

a hate group.

Moderators - I'm not sure where this falls in the rules, so whatever is judged I will not dispute. However, I believe this is something that needs to be done. What this "organization" does is nothing short of despicable harassment. As pathetic as it sounds, I have more "respect" for the KKK than I ever would for the Westboro Baptists.

Here is where one can sign up for this petition.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/legally-recognize-westboro-baptist-church-hate-group/DYf3pH2d?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

I do realize that this is a form of censorship. But this is one time that it needs to happen. For the love - they wanted to protest that killing 20 six to seven year olds was justified.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2407 times:

The patriarch of this tiny and obnoxious group is a well established civil rights lawyer. It is sad he turned into the kind of person he once challenged but for the fact that as far as we know, the WBC doesn't kill or hang or beat up people and really his sick protests are fully protected by the 1st Amendment. IF the government were to find some way to go after them, to try to shut them up, that would be highly challenged and probably attract the ACLU (they defended neo-Nazi groups who were into protests), religious freedom groups and free speech absolutist. Perhaps the best way to go after them is to challange their non-for-profit tax status as a 'church' or get them to open up their financial books to see how they spend their money on the family.

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
I do realize that this is a form of censorship. But this is one time that it needs to happen. For the love - they wanted to protest that killing 20 six to seven year olds was justified


Then where do we stop? Censor them then we should sensor everybody who hates gays or blacks or Hispanics etc.. Lets make sure no one can say something bad about anyone.

Please. There is a reason for the first amendment. They can say whatever they want. Do people agree with them? No. Can people protest against them? They sure can. But to say we should censor this one group because we don't believe in what they are protesting is just as bad as saying what the group says.

It just is not the way this country works.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1):
Perhaps the best way to go after them is to challange their non-for-profit tax status as a 'church' or get them to open up their financial books to see how they spend their money on the family.


Exactly.

P.S. I find 99.9% of these white house petitions so dumb especially the ones that have come up on Anet.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
I do realize that this is a form of censorship. But this is one time that it needs to happen.

Why? As disgusting as I find them, their activities have been limited to protesting and saying moronic stuff. They have not threatened anyone's safety, have not physically assaulted anyone as far as I know. All they do is promise you damnation in the afterlife, and seriously, that is not a clear and present danger to most people.

The KKK on the other hand - at least some decades ago - went out and lynched people. Very, very different.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
I do realize that this is a form of censorship. But this is one time that it needs to happen.



Be very careful with that line of reasoning...when there is "one time" that something needs to happen, there will be another time.

I'm not a fan of hanging the "hate group" label on any organization, because, the term, like so many others (racist, homophobe, XXXX-o-phobe) has lost all meaning.

That having been said, I don't think that reviewing their status as a religious organization worthy of tax exempt status is censorship at all. In fact, I believe the federal (and various state governments) should do more reviews of organizations that claim to be exempt due to the organization being religious in nature.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6604 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2384 times:
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Can someone explain to me what does the White House has to do with this petition?

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1):
IF the government were to find some way to go after them, to try to shut them up, that would be highly challenged and probably attract the ACLU

Tax them. They are using their tax exempt status as a "church" to fund these outrages. Once a religous organization crosses the line into politics, I say tax them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
As disgusting as I find them, their activities have been limited to protesting and saying moronic stuff

I want to be in line right behind Fred Phelps on judgement day just to see the look on his face when he is denied entry.

It reminds me of one cut-away from Family Guy with the two tele-vangelists being the only two people on Earth after the rapture. "Why weren't we raptured? We hated all the right things!"



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Can someone explain to me what does the White House has to do with this petition?


Oh, people have found a new bully-pulpit (well, not really that new) on The White House website:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petitions

And, we do have the right to petition our government:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Of course, I'm not quite sure this is what The Founders meant.

It's fascinating to see what folks are up in arms about. It's also informative (and a little disturbing) to see how many people really don't know what the power of the Executive are and even more disturbing, how many folks do believe in some level of censorship.

By the way, there are already several petitions running about the Westboro Baptist Church:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/investigate-irs-tax-exempt-status-westboro-baptist-church/YrKbHYtV

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-westboro-baptist-churchs-501c3-tax-exempt-status-and-make-it-retroactive/kmYR4DTL

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-tax-exempt-status-westboro-baptist-church-re-classify-westboro-baptist-church-hate-group/tNVz4V7Q

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/legally-recognize-westboro-baptist-church-hate-group/DYf3pH2d

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/define-westboro-baptist-church-hate-group-due-promoting-animosity-against-differing-cultural/xHF0d3nq

I'm sure there are more. And, every new one dilutes the power of the others.

[Edited 2012-12-26 19:17:41]

[Edited 2012-12-26 19:20:02]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6604 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (1 year 12 months 17 hours ago) and read 2366 times:
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Thanks fr8mech. So if I understood correctly people can go to the White House website and initiate their own petitions, then. I thought that it was the White House, through its website that STARTED the petition. I thought that was weird.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7979 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (1 year 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

Just ignore them. I don't think they are trolls, but they often act like trolls.

And to be fair, as much as I hate them, they don't lynch people or bomb anything. Don't give them any attention and they'll either stop or people won't be mad because no one will be paying attention.

Even if they are characterized as a "hate group" what are they doing that goes against the Constitution? Nothing, I would reckon.




Again... IGNORE THEM!!!  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13200 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (1 year 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Can someone explain to me what does the White House has to do with this petition?

Apparently the website of the White House (ie: the President/executive branch of the US Government) has put up the opportunity to create petitions on the site for the public to have a way to directly affect public policy. In recent months, the petitions have included silly ones like to build a Star Wars like 'death star' to some states terminating their statehood and separating as part of the USA and to call for the deportation of CNN Personalty and UK National Piers Morgan for his anti-gun comments in an interview with a guns right group. To be subject to Executive Department review, a minimum number of 'names' on these 'petitions' must be entered.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
So if I understood correctly people can go to the White House website and initiate their own petitions

Yup, go ahead and read through them. A while ago there was a petition to build a Death Star. I believe it got the requisite number of signatures to require a response from The White House. I need to look that up.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Again... IGNORE THEM!!!

'nuff said.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2764 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 10):
to call for the deportation of CNN Personalty and UK National Piers Morgan for his anti-gun comments

Yeah that one was a gem. I am very, very pro-Second Amendment, but these people who think a person should be deported for stating a perfectly civil, peaceable opinion - well I'm sorry, we first learned about the Constitution in seventh grade and these petitioners apparently never made it to eighth.



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Well, when reading some responses, I came across this gem:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/closing-executive-departments-and-agencies-federal-government-monday-december-24-2012

It appears that December 24th of this year was a paid holiday for employees of the Executive Branch. Funny, I believe I got mail on Monday....



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (1 year 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 2316 times:
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Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Tax them. They are using their tax exempt status as a "church" to fund these outrages. Once a religous organization crosses the line into politics, I say tax them.

I've never really understood why any church has tax exempt status. Anything spent on charity should, of course, be a deduction, but when I look at the staggering wealth of some churches, I start to wonder about the taxes I have to pay.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
And to be fair, as much as I hate them, they don't lynch people or bomb anything. Don't give them any attention and they'll either stop or people won't be mad because no one will be paying attention.

I agree. Phelps and Co offend me mightily, but I think the young people at Matthew Sheppard's funeral had the right idea - dressing as angels with enormous wings to shield the grieving family from the Phelps mob.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2011/03/04/AR2011030406330.html

"Let Westboro Baptist have their hate speech. We'll smother it with peace."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (1 year 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
But this is one time that it needs to happen.

Absolutely not.

They are sick, sick "people", but there ain't no law against that.

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I've never really understood why any church has tax exempt status.

Me neither.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Even if they are characterized as a "hate group" what are they doing that goes against the Constitution? Nothing, I would reckon.

One thing I have never understood is: why are they allowed to protest at funerals because "God hates..." (even though no where in any holy book does it say that any diety hates) but public nudity is banned? I am not talking about the obvious disgusting behavior but if someone wants to simply lay out in a park on a warm, sunny day that is horriffic and think of the children? Or a plant is illegal to posess?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

As much as I hate the Westboro Baptists, I support their 1st. Amendment right to free speech. In fact, I hope they're still around when I die and hope they protest at my funeral. That would be an accomplishment for me.  
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Be very careful with that line of reasoning...when there is "one time" that something needs to happen, there will be another time.


  

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
I have more "respect" for the KKK than I ever would for the Westboro Baptists.


You can't possibly be serious with that statement.
I know you're angry at the Westboro Baptists as many people are but you can't possibly say they're better than a terrorist organization that has killed thousands of people.
How many has the Westboro Baptists killed?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6604 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 2276 times:
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Well, if anybody read or listened to the Pope´s Christmas message, it was so ridiculous it was funny. He mentioned how people were shunning the church and God and how people are becoming more materialistic, and then he goes and says that gay marriage, abortion and the usual threaten world peace. If it wasn´t so moronic...

So, really, with certain difference in degree, Ratzinger is not much different than Phelps, and I used to be Catholic...


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 13 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I've never really understood why any church has tax exempt status. Anything spent on charity should, of course, be a deduction, but when I look at the staggering wealth of some churches, I start to wonder about the taxes I have to pay.

In a nutshell:

The power to tax is the power to control and ultimately destroy.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 2204 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
The power to tax is the power to control and ultimately destroy.

It isn't the taxes I object to, it is that churches are exempt from them.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
It isn't the taxes I object to, it is that churches are exempt from them.

Churches are exempt from taxes in order to give them additional protections from government interference.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12888 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 8 hours ago) and read 2158 times:
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Quoting Airstud (Reply 12):
I am very, very pro-Second Amendment, but these people who think a person should be deported for stating a perfectly civil, peaceable opinion - well I'm sorry, we first learned about the Constitution in seventh grade and these petitioners apparently never made it to eighth.

Maybe you need to go back to school for a quick refresher session on the various amendments?   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

For years the Phelps' have singled out the families of fallen soldiers to protest. They show-up at their funerals and harrass the families with ridiculous signs and banners suggesting that the Lord has punished the fallen soldiers for the sins of homosexuals.

As a funeral service professional I am very protective of the families I serve. I want their right to privacy respected while they work through the grieving process. I certainly don't want them confronted with the abject cruelty of some freaky radical religious group. If I thought there were even the chance of those P'sOS showing up I would file a restraining order or peace warrant against them to keep them away for a funeral. I don't think I would have a problem out of any of the judges I know.

There is a time and place for everything. Funerals should NEVER be a venue to protest anything other than the loss of a loved one. IMO ij just shows how demented the Phelps' are. Their moral compass has no pointer.

Again, I am reminded of the old quote:
"I like Christ, I just don't like some of his Christians. They are so UNlike their Christ."



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 2082 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
Churches are exempt from taxes in order to give them additional protections from government interference.

I don't know why the church needs "additional protections" but the threat to tax would be a powerful incentive not to dissent.

Some of us are advocating that here for the Westboro Baptist Church - say what you like but pay tax.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 25, posted (1 year 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
Well, if anybody read or listened to the Pope´s Christmas message, it was so ridiculous it was funny. He mentioned how people were shunning the church and God and how people are becoming more materialistic, and then he goes and says that gay marriage, abortion and the usual threaten world peace. If it wasn´t so moronic...

So, really, with certain difference in degree, Ratzinger is not much different than Phelps, and I used to be Catholic...

Well said. The Pope just says it nicer and less rough then Westboro.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 26, posted (1 year 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

They are scum - censor away.....


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1507 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 2108 times:

Censoring them is a terrible idea. By doing that you grant them legitimacy, whereas currently they have none. They are figures of fun for most people.

Russell Brand does a far better job of destroying their credibility with humor than with vitriol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBA6qlHW8po

This kind of thing makes them seem far more ludicrous than censoring them:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-3...-westboro-baptist-church-protest-s



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 28, posted (1 year 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 2091 times:

First I agree that these nut cases are the worst kind of extremist who deserve nothing but our scorn.

Quoting PC12Fan (Thread starter):
But this is one time that it needs to happen.

Won't happen. The 'right' of these people to make such protests has already been to the US Supreme Court where Westboro won the case.

Disgusting, but the Constitution does apply to everyone - not matter what low class slime they choose to be.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 29, posted (1 year 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 2073 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 27):
Censoring them is a terrible idea. By doing that you grant them legitimacy, whereas currently they have none. They are figures of fun for most people.

Russell Brand does a far better job of destroying their credibility with humor than with vitriol:

In the strict sense of the word, yes - but as you suggest, there is more than one way to skin a cat.....



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 30, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
I don't know why the church needs "additional protections" but the threat to tax would be a powerful incentive not to dissent.

Exactly my point. If a church, any church, were routinely threatened with taxation, it could easily change the way they do business. In other words, "play ball our way or we'll tax you into oblivion".

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
Some of us are advocating that here for the Westboro Baptist Church - say what you like but pay tax.

I have no problem with the IRS (or whatever entity makes the decision) reviewing the "church's" tax-exempt status. I say we should periodically review all organizations claiming tax-exempt status for compliance with the various rules surrounding the status.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 2044 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):

You can't possibly be serious with that statement.
I know you're angry at the Westboro Baptists as many people are but you can't possibly say they're better than a terrorist organization that has killed thousands of people.
How many has the Westboro Baptists killed?

Last year, members of WBC were going to protest a military funeral at Arlington National Cemetery. Of course a number of counter-protesters showed up as well, including members of the KKK and one guy claiming to be an "imperial wizard" of a KKK group called WBC a bunch of hatemongers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ideo/2011/05/31/AGgoiPFH_blog.html

Here's a quote from one of the Phelps clan that I found particularly funny:

Quote:
WBC member Abigail Phelps said the KKK “have no moral authority on anything.”

“The Bible doesn't say anywhere that it's an abomination to be born of a certain gender or race,” she said

I'm of the opinion that the WBC have no moral authority on anything, as they represent their own twisted version of religion. While mainstream religious denominations do have anti-gay stances, they're not out there picketing and spewing the sort of vile bile that the WBC does. WBC is about as religious as the various "Christian Identity" groups that mask their hate under the guise of religion.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 32, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 31):
one guy claiming to be an "imperial wizard" of a KKK group called WBC a bunch of hatemongers.

Oh the irony.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 31):
I'm of the opinion that the WBC have no moral authority on anything

No human being has moral authority on anything.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2468 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 2032 times:

Everyone,

Can't argue all the points you've made. I guess I was getting passionate about this particular subject, especially with the recent tragedy. I mean, you're right. Allow this censorship, then who's next in line? Then when does it stop?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
You can't possibly be serious with that statement.

I was at the time, but I see now that was a foolish statement. I do apologize.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Again... IGNORE THEM!!!

Tell that to the media. Then we'll get somewhere.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1):
Perhaps the best way to go after them is to challange their non-for-profit tax status as a 'church' or get them to open up their financial books to see how they spend their money on the family.

Money does talk the loudest. Or in this case, a lack thereof.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 27):
This kind of thing makes them seem far more ludicrous than censoring them:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-3...est-s

I actually enjoyed that.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 34, posted (1 year 12 months ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 33):
I was at the time, but I see now that was a foolish statement. I do apologize.


I figured that was the case. That was a bit out of character for you and totally understand your frustration with this group.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 33):
Tell that to the media. Then we'll get somewhere.


It's time to stop relying on the obsolete media and start listening to alternative news sources. The lamestream media LOVES Fred Felps and the Westboro Baptist Church.


By the way, I just found out that I went to the same middle school as Fred Phelps and Sirhan Sirhan.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20352 posts, RR: 59
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
Why? As disgusting as I find them, their activities have been limited to protesting and saying moronic stuff. They have not threatened anyone's safety, have not physically assaulted anyone as far as I know. All they do is promise you damnation in the afterlife, and seriously, that is not a clear and present danger to most people.

I have to agree with you. Mark it down on the calendar.

That said, it is not censorship to decide that their activities do not constitute a church and to revoke their tax-exempt status.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 25):
Well said. The Pope just says it nicer and less rough then Westboro.

I agree that the Pope's essential message is: "God Hates Fags." However, neither he nor his followers stand outside funerals holding up a sign to that effect.

In the end WBC will vanish as soon as people start ignoring them. The trouble is that they are difficult to ignore.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1950 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
Exactly my point. If a church, any church, were routinely threatened with taxation, it could easily change the way they do business. In other words, "play ball our way or we'll tax you into oblivion".

But not my point.

I know the historical causes of it, I understand the dance of power that existed between church and state. I accept your possible effect of taxation, however unlikely I think that effect might be.

But as a complete (tax-paying) non-believer, I think the exemption is irrational.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
That said, it is not censorship to decide that their activities do not constitute a church and to revoke their tax-exempt status.

Then you come to the idea of government defining what is and what is not a religion. Potentially a slippery slope, but I'm sure it is something reasonable people could come up with. But given the political divide in this country, our current government could not come to an agreement to whether bears shit in the woods or not.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1921 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I think this petition is a terrible idea. As much as I hate everything they stand for they are not doing anything constitutionally illegal. All this is doing is giving them exposure which is exactly what they want. If the media as a whole would just ignore them they would drift off and disappear.
Blue



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User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7979 posts, RR: 51
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 33):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Again... IGNORE THEM!!!

Tell that to the media. Then we'll get somewhere.

They are terrible. I don't want to open the gun debate in this thread, but I think we can agree from both sides that the almost glorification the shooters always get go into wanting to go down with a bang. Not to mention blaming the wrong guy for the last shooting... they have no accountability....



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1904 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
they have no accountability


Of course they have accountability...us. So long as we continue to tune in and respond to their sensationalistic drivel, they will continue to spoon it out to us.

Anybody ever read L. Ron Hubbard's dekalogy "Mission Earth"?

Though I remember very little of it, having read it in junior high, I'm strangely reminded of that series whenever I think of the media.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Then you come to the idea of government defining what is and what is not a religion.


Government already does that when they decide to grant tax-exempt status to a religious organization. I haven't researched it at all, but I imagine there are some conditions the organization must meet and maintain.

I've no problem with periodic reviews and asking such institutions to account for their actions.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
I agree that the Pope's essential message is: "God Hates Fags."

Actually, I think it's "God Loves Fags, but Hates Faggotry."  duck 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Edited 2012-12-27 20:07:52]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1507 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Then you come to the idea of government defining what is and what is not a religion. Potentially a slippery slope, but I'm sure it is something reasonable people could come up with

My biggest problem is churches using their position to influence government. I think if any church is found to donate money to a political campaign (e.g. Mormons funding Prop 8 or Romney's campaign, or black churches trying to coerce their congregation to vote for Obama etc) it should lose its tax exempt status for that year.

Would be tough to enforce as the churches would probably find a way to funnel the money through other sources, but it might discourage them from publicizing their donations which in itself would be a good thing.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20352 posts, RR: 59
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):

Then you come to the idea of government defining what is and what is not a religion.

They already do. And they do a rotten job of it.

There's a group of drag queens who do charitable work for the gay community and they are classified as a religion for tax purposes. Now, I'm all for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence (that's what they're called), but should they legally be treated as a religion?

I think this country does too much mollycoddling of people who scream "it's my RELIGION!" to defend a behavior that is otherwise indefensible. We don't let Rastafari smoke pot, so I guess the gubmint DOES define which forms of religious expression are allowable and which are not.

And, frankly, I'm much more supportive of the Rastafari right to smoke pot than I am of the WBC right to picket funerals even though I support both rights.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 41):
My biggest problem is churches using their position to influence government. I think if any church is found to donate money to a political campaign (e.g. Mormons funding Prop 8 or Romney's campaign, or black churches trying to coerce their congregation to vote for Obama etc) it should lose its tax exempt status for that year.

I have a better idea: remove tax-exempt status from churches period. If they're nonprofit, they're nonprofit. Stop respecting establishments of religion.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1507 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
I have a better idea: remove tax-exempt status from churches period. If they're nonprofit, they're nonprofit. Stop respecting establishments of religion.

Most churches do some sort of charitable work, which means they'd be tax exempt anyway I would think.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20352 posts, RR: 59
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 43):
Most churches do some sort of charitable work, which means they'd be tax exempt anyway I would think.

Great. Let them. And for the churches that solely exist to funnel millions of dollars into the corrupt pastor's private coffers, tax them. Same with the churches (like LDS) who try to influence public policy to match their own religious views. Tax them.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5739 posts, RR: 6
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1698 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):

P.S. I find 99.9% of these white house petitions so dumb especially the ones that have come up on Anet.

They're no different than the old petitions.com or whatever website.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 12):
we first learned about the Constitution in seventh grade and these petitioners apparently never made it to eighth.

I give a small pass to some of the "older" generations who may not fully know how the internet and stuff like this works.

But anyone born after 1980 who thinks they can "make a difference" online is just dumb.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
I am not talking about the obvious disgusting behavior but if someone wants to simply lay out in a park on a warm, sunny day that is horriffic and think of the children?

America is weird about that stuff. One of the few things we have been unable to shake off is our Puritanical roots.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1505 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1646 times:

You can support the WBC as they are in tge recycling business nowadays.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022050828


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1542 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
I hope they're still around when I die and hope they protest at my funeral. That would be an accomplishment for me

The only protesters you will get will be greenies objecting to the giant Cadillac hearse hauling your body and the big Lincoln limos hauling the throngs of lady mourners  
Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
It isn't the taxes I object to, it is that churches are exempt from them.

Not all of a church's money is non taxable. I am on the vestry (board of directors) of a large Episcopal church, in Detroit. We are right next to Comerica Park, where the Detroit Tigers play. We earn about $150,000 parking lot rental. We pay taxes on that money and we pay property taxes on that parking lot because it isn't directly related to the ministry of the church. If we only used the lot for parking at church services we would not pay taxes on it. We own a house too, but it is being lived in by an employee of the church, in exchange for a reduced rate of pay. That property is tax exempt because of it. If we rented the house we would have to pay taxes on the money and the property. We will sell the house if and when the market improves. If we make money on the house we will have to pay capital gains taxes. We do not pay taxes on the church building itself or any of the money people donate that goes to the operation of the church.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20352 posts, RR: 59
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1503 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
The power to tax is the power to control and ultimately destroy.

Yes, and yet the Constitution grants that power. In fact there is no country of which I am aware in which there are no taxes at all except maybe the Vatican.

So if you don't want taxes, the only place I could suggest you go is Somalia where there is no government.

Besides, the government does not need taxes to control and destroy. I give you the Branch Davidians in Waco. I bet they were tax-exempt and look what happened.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 48):
So if you don't want taxes, the only place I could suggest you go is Somalia where there is no government.

I never said I was against taxation. I never said I was against taxing religious institutions. In fact, in this very thread I have advocated periodic reviews to ensure that religious institutions are living within the rules established. In some other thread that touched on this subject, I said we should visit these rules and determine whether they still serve the purpose they were intended to serve.

I'm only answereing the question as to why religious institutions are tax exempt.

Please don't put words in my mouth, it's beneath you.

You really don't want to know what I would do to our tax policy if I were given a free hand. Suffice to say that I believe that tax policy exists to fund the essential functions of government. That's all. It should not be used to implement social policy.

[Edited 2012-12-31 15:24:10]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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