Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38511 posts, RR: 80 Posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1456 times:
With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.
Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4633 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1448 times:
Quoting Superfly (Thread starter): With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.
Can anyone explain why Chicago would still have such a high murder rate?
Pretty simple really:
Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.
Look at Mexico. They have very strict gun laws but since the USA allows easy purchase of guns thousands of guns every year go across the border into Mexico.
While one may then want to point to Canada, they do not have the same level of additional elements like poverty and drugs etc. that are significant contributing factors. Even in Mexico and the USA where these factors are lower the gun violence drops drastically.
Tugg
[Edited 2012-12-28 10:07:07]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38511 posts, RR: 80 Reply 2, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1424 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 1): Look at Mexico. They have very strict gun laws but since the USA allows easy purchase of guns thousands of guns every year go across the border into Mexico.
Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.
Quoting tugger (Reply 1): Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.
Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.
Must be all of those Bible-thumping right-wing Republican NRA members selling guns on the Dolton/Chicago border.
If what you're saying is true, wouldn't this city's policies hurt those who are law abiding? Is this just feel good politics for politicians to make a name for themselves without any concern of the consequences?
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4633 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1394 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.
Source?
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.
Of course, there are places to legally and illegally buy firearms. I think that is the case most everywhere.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): If what you're saying is true, wouldn't this city's policies hurt those who are law abiding? Is this just feel good politics for politicians to make a name for themselves without any concern of the consequences?
No, the laws do not hurt law abiding citizens. People hurt law abiding citizens (remember if one thing can't be the cause for the harm to people then the same gos for other things).
Laws are created in response to situations and are enacted for good reason (usually), it is those that choose violate the laws the cause the problems. Same thing as illegal immigration, same thing as people who speed, same thing as people who use illegal drugs. Just because people break the laws does not mean the laws were bad or the reason they were put in place was wrong.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
Here is a pro-gun control news source that mentions the AK-47 as being the gun of choice. They neglect to mention that guns also come through Guatemala as well.
But of course that doesn't fit the; 'it's all American's fault narrative'.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4633 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 3): That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.
Me thinks there are many contributing factors actually.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 5): But of course that doesn't fit the; 'it's all American's fault narrative'.
Didn't mean to imply that if that's what you think I was doing. I was simply noting that neighboring areas laws are often contributing factors. America is most certainly not the cause of Mexico's problems, Mexico is.
And thanks for the source! Interesting.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 5): As you already know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Why not ban everything to protect us from ourselves?
Oh I don't disagree with you on this really. But I also agree with driving laws and automotive standards, and manufacturing standards, and building inspection requirements etc. Not that there are parts of each that bug me and I think are not going to achieve the desired affect but I do think laws and regulations are mostly good things to have and that in general we do the right thing more often than not.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16261 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1341 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 3): What can I say, firearms bans kill people.
That is why communities with strict defector bans like Chicago and Washington DC have these high rates.
On the contrary bans are quite effective, care to compare murder rates today to say 20 years ago?
New York City, 20 years ago there were 2,200 homicides (the vast majority by guns). This year, 2012, NYC will end the year with about 414 homicides. From 2,200 to a little over 400, keep in mind the population has grown. Simply amazing.
Chicago, 20 years ago there were over 750 homicides (vast majority by guns). This year 500, not as an impressive decline as NYC but a decline nonetheless. Again this with a larger population.
Washington DC, 20 years ago there were almost 500 homicides (the vast majority by guns). This year, 2012, Washington DC will end the year with less than 100 homicides.
Los Angeles had 1,100 homicides 20 years ago. This year, 2012, Los Angeles will be at about 300 homicides.
These are remarkable turnarounds, and proof that gun control works.
roswell41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 576 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1284 times:
Much of the spike in murders in the 70s and 80s was due to the crack-cocaine introduction to the US markets and the associated violence. Drugs and their trade contribute more to violence in the US then almost any other factor in my estimation.
mt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6354 posts, RR: 7 Reply 11, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1280 times:
Quoting Superfly (Thread starter): With only 3 days left in 2012, Chicago has reached 500 homicides. Existing laws on the books in Chicago should make Chicago the safest big city in the United States due to the city having the toughest anti-gun law in the nation. Chicago public schools receives some of the most federal funding and taxes in Chicago and Cook county is high to help support vital services.
Thailand, with lax gun laws - has a crime rate much higher
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1271 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 9): Ageing baby-boomer population has more to do with that.
Hardly. The number of young adults (the ones doing most of the killing) living in the city hasn't changed remarkably over the past 30-40 years. While the baby-boom population aged (and in many cases moved out), they were replaced with new young adults.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 9): By 2008, Chicago's murder rate was 18.03 per 100,000, roughly the same as it was in 1967.
True, but Chicago's murder rate is vastly lower than it was in the 1970's, 80's or 90's.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Yet the gun of choice by most Mexican drug-lords is the AK-47 which is made in Russia and other knock offs made in other countries but none made in the United States.
Is that so?.
As if AK aren't easy to come by in the US, anyway.
FlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1625 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1222 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): Wrong. I know of places to buy guns in Chicago city limits.
Is because of this
Quoting tugger (Reply 1): Because there are no coordinated/similar gun laws in the surrounding region. So guns can still be easily brought into the city.
FlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6049 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1169 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 14): The baby-boomers were replaced by fewer Gen Xers.
We're well past the Generation X'ers at this point. Average Gen Xer is 40 years old. Those in the prime crime age are Gen Y and later. While the population of the U.S. has aged, the number of young people living in inner city America hasn't declined significantly...certainly not by the levels of we've seen crime decline.
The article you posted even supports that:
"Experts also point to better policing strategies, more police on the streets, a record U.S. prison population, tougher gun control laws and improved economic conditions."
Sorry, but a small shift in demographics would not cause murder rates to drop by 50%!
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7647 posts, RR: 28 Reply 16, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1128 times:
Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10): Drugs and their trade contribute more to violence in the US then almost any other factor in my estimation.
Precisely one of the reasons why it would seem one of the most sensible things to do would be to pull the rug out from under that industry through a total restructuring of the business via decriminalization and heavily regulated distribution similar to any other pharmaceutical items.
Watch what happens to gangs as their cash flow starts to dwindle and their reason for existence goes with it.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5673 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1111 times:
Quoting Acheron (Reply 13): As if AK aren't easy to come by in the US, anyway.
None of those guns are are AK-47s.....
This is an AK-47, well and AKM-47 actually. Notice it has a different receiver than every gun you just showed. The Banana clip has nothing to do with the type of gun.
Who are the people in reply 13? Do you know if they aren't the very criminals Superfly mentions. They could be, I have no idea, you can't tell by looking at them.
Take a look at this photo and see how many guns are in it.
Who are these people? I'm second from the left with the SKS. Are these people armed criminals? Nope what we have here are a police officer, a high school teacher, a university professor and an automotive engineer. Nobody here has a criminal record and nobody is breaking any laws in this photo.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1418 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1092 times:
Quoting falstaff (Reply 17): None of those guns are are AK-47s.....
This is an AK-47, well and AKM-47 actually. Notice it has a different receiver than every gun you just showed. The Banana clip has nothing to do with the type of gun.
I know what an AK looks like and that the weapons in the pictures are AR-15 and its variants. My point was that high ranking cartel members have moved on from AK's nowadays and even if the AK's are still widespread for the lowest scum, that doesn't rule out a US origin either.
And yes, those in the pictures I posted are cartel members
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7451 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1079 times:
One can be pretty sure that country music listeners are not doing the shooting. Location with known shooting history could be either gentrified via tax incentives, or country music could be piped in. I really don't think gang types are going to hang around looking tough with country music playing softly in the background. Ballet music, show tunes could be options as well.
On a real note, gentrification can really have an effect. Walking past tough guys in a sweater, carrying bottle of wine and happily greeting them on the way to a warm holiday party - they hate that stuff. It shatters their whole self image.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12337 posts, RR: 12 Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1042 times:
The rise in the murder rate in Chicago is disturbing and I suspect several factors that need further determination and detail.
It is generally understood that there has been a large rise in Mexican and Central American based street gangs and organizations, as legal and mainly illegals have arrived into Chicago. They complete for 'turf' in the drug and other criminal 'trades' that they often clash. They are notoriously difficult to get inside info on, to get cops undercover into and have structures that make it near impossible to try to repress.
The police, perhaps due to political pressures to protect the 'white' and downtown business areas first are constructively ignoring the highest risk areas. You have a reluctance for the best cops to work the bad percents with the highest rates of increase with murders, using political Democratic machine connections to not get assigned to them. Perhaps too, lousy police leadership, not using techniques to pinpoint crime hot spots, not going after the 'quality of life' minor crimes that lead to worse crimes, budget cuts yet still needing to fund unsustainable retirement and disability compensation. Backing off of going after family, spousal and relationship violence, especially in early stages before it escalates to murder.
In fact segregation of the poor in projects and certain areas of the city, declining numbers of 'good' paying factory and commercial jobs, a public schools system with many serious problems and hamstrung with bad politics, broken and often single and too young and poorly educated mothers, that encourages criminal gangs.
As noted by others, New York City has seen a drop in homicides by about 100 from last year, has similar strict gun laws as Chicago, but I suspect a more effective police department and social services system, perhaps less ethnic gang based violence and a different attitude of it's people as to gun use and possession.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7647 posts, RR: 28 Reply 22, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1026 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21): In fact segregation of the poor in projects and certain areas of the city, declining numbers of 'good' paying factory and commercial jobs, a public schools system with many serious problems and hamstrung with bad politics, broken and often single and too young and poorly educated mothers, that encourages criminal gangs.
Exactly. Throw in the lucrative drug market provided by wholesale illicit status of everything sold on the street, and you have the textbook witches' brew.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21): The police, perhaps due to political pressures to protect the 'white' and downtown business areas first are constructively ignoring the highest risk areas. You have a reluctance for the best cops to work the bad percents with the highest rates of increase with murders, using political Democratic machine connections to not get assigned to them. Perhaps too, lousy police leadership, not using techniques to pinpoint crime hot spots, not going after the 'quality of life' minor crimes that lead to worse crimes, budget cuts yet still needing to fund unsustainable retirement and disability compensation. Backing off of going after family, spousal and relationship violence, especially in early stages before it escalates to murder.
This can be found in almost any major American city today.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38511 posts, RR: 80 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 962 times:
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15): the number of young people living in inner city America hasn't declined significantly...
Yes it has. That is why a lot of inner city schools are closing. Low enrollment.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15): Sorry, but a small shift in demographics would not cause murder rates to drop by 50%!
Where on earth are you getting that "50%" figure from? STT757 claims that Chicago had 750 homicides 20 years ago and down to 500 in 2012.
That is not a drop of 50% as you claim.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 16): the most sensible things to do would be to pull the rug out from under that industry through a total restructuring of the business via decriminalization and heavily regulated distribution similar to any other pharmaceutical items.
Amen to that!
Bring back the Concorde
25 Pellegrine: Americans like to kill people. True story. Statistics per capita. OMG!!! The gun rights people are going to come out and lambast me! In other words, N
26 FlyPNS1: Chicago had 943 homicides in 1992, so close to a 50% drop. https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/Statistical%20Reports/M
27 Geezer: Yeah Larry, I think I can explain that pretty well; Chicago is a classic example of a very large city that has become completely corrupted by "manage
28 DeltaMD90: I'm not arguing we don't have a problem, but please, read into some of these subjects before posting a simple, snazzy jpeg. There are many things I s
29 Superfly: It's ingrained in to the city's psyche. Old man Daley -yes. His son? No way! Raham Emmanuel left the Obama administration when the job became too tou
30 falstaff: There are some US built AKs. Here is an example. I would imagine that there are some non US AR 15s too. http://www.impactguns.com/arsenal-sa...-hamme
31 Superfly: Who is the lady in the 2nd photo? She's kinda cute. Ah the Falstaff beer shrine and gun rack. I miss hanging out there and I'll make sure to visit ag
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