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Is Chavez In His Last Hours?  
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4163 times:
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Today:

1) The military in Venezuela has started being courted by different people who wish to be in their graces Among them:

Diosdado Cabello
Nicolás Maduro

Although Chavistas both, they are entrenched rivals.

2) The Vice President, Nicolás Maduro and appointed "succesor" by Chavez was denied permssion to see him today in Havana by the doctors. Apparently he is in total isolation.

3) Maduro, and Chavez´s daughter issued a joint statement saying that Chavez´s has suffered further complications as of yesterday.

4) Chavez´s Bolivarian Militia in Venezuela has started mobilizing.

5) The opposition yesterday demanded a "full account" on Chavez´s actual health conditions.

So. Is the guy in his deathbed? For all intents and purposes Chavez appointed Maduro as his succesor but this is not constitutional. If Chavez is not ready by January the 10th to re-assume the Presidency (and he won´t be) there is going to be trouble as the Constitution says new elections have to be called in 30 days.

I thought we were done with these type of crisis in Latin America.

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8470 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
Is the guy in his deathbed?

With any luck he is.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
So. Is the guy in his deathbed? For all intents and purposes Chavez appointed Maduro as his succesor but this is not constitutional. If Chavez is not ready by January the 10th to re-assume the Presidency (and he won´t be) there is going to be trouble as the Constitution says new elections have to be called in 30 days.

Not knowing about the constitutional law in Venezuela, but guessing here.
If Chavez can at least mutter an " I do" or whatever the correct answer is to accept his term on January the 10th no matter his location or condition then one would assume that at his passing then the presidency would pass to the VP or whatever the constitution would allow.

Otherwise, if he does pass before January 10th, then it looks like another election within 30 days.
The best I can recall is that Chavez has pretty much taken control of the media and one would guess that would be the main contributing factor to who wins the election which would seem to favor Maduro since he would automatically be president until January 10 assuming the presidency transfers to the VP.


Okie


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6925 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
If Chavez can at least mutter an " I do" or whatever the correct answer is to accept his term on January the 10th no matter his location or condition then one would assume that at his passing then the presidency would pass to the VP or whatever the constitution would allow.

Unlike in the US the vice president is not elected along with the president but appointed, so even if the constitution gives the VP presidential powers, his/her legitimacy would be very low, there is no way it can work without an election.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

I am right know in home leave and not in Venezuela but what I heard from friends, Twitter Account etc. raw times are ahead.

Whatever the constitution is saying I am pritty sure we won't see elections within 30 days after the 10.01.2013.
It's more likely to see a kind of auto coup.

Regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

It will be a long and painful process.

Chavez's regime is/was almost entirely based on the individual's charisma.
With him gone, I doubt anybody could take his throne and maintain the same kind of authoritative government. It's not like Cuba or North Korea where a tight regime has reigned over several generations of the population.

However, many will try, and likely fail. The power will fade and I'm guessing will lead to ever increased corruption and popular uprisings. I'm thinking the military might eventually retake the power, forcefully.

In any case, I hope Venezuelans manage to obtain a proper, democratic government once again.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
However, many will try, and likely fail. The power will fade and I'm guessing will lead to ever increased corruption and popular uprisings. I'm thinking the military might eventually retake the power, forcefully

I am not sure how you would get more corruption than exists now.
Heavens the massive amount of Oil income to the country seems to only get disbursed among a few Elitist closely tied to Chavez, at least from my perspective. Sure does not seem to be any of that income going for infrastructure or assistance to the citizens of Venezuela.

Okie


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3677 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
I am not sure how you would get more corruption than exists now.

Well, that's true. Same goes for the safety level.

Drug gangs are apparently pretty much running unchecked and murder rate is at an all time high.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29832 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Well it would be hard not to see that as a positive for that besieged country.

Because all his replacements seem to lack his charm over time his changes may start to reverse themselves.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Quoting AR385 (Thread starter):
I thought we were done with these type of crisis in Latin America.

As long as Latin American countries have such extreme constitutional laws, negative. Here in Europe, office holders were represented by deputies for many months (among them French president Jacques Chirac, and members of the Swiss Federal government, and in the 1950ies/60ies WestGerman Federal Chancellor Konrad Adenauer. And Dwight D Eisenhower for long times handed actual presidential powers to Vice President Richard Nixon.

The other side of the coin is the old saying "Those proclaimed dead live longer"


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
As long as Latin American countries have such extreme constitutional laws,

This hasn't much to do with constitutions. As a matter of fact, wannabe dictators are the ones who usually get democratically elected on empty promises to the poor and once they're in power, start bending the rules their way by changing the constitution...

Poverty and lack of education are the real culprits.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3528 times:

Anti-Chavez commentators are reporting that Chavez is on life support with very weak vital signs. Reports are that four feet of intestine were removed, and that cancer metastasized to the spine and spinal cord. Take this with a grain of salt.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 10):
once they're in power, start bending the rules their way by changing the constitution...

Poverty and lack of education are the real culprits.

-
Alright, but Chavez ought to be allowed to stay on as president also if being under medical treatment

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
Reports are that four feet of intestine were removed, and that cancer metastasized to the spine and spinal cord. Take this with a grain of salt.

and this sounds very bad. If you ever have had cancer you of course know that the sword of Damocles (or of Dr Guillotin) is hanging over you always. And yes, if cancer gets to the spine, you can get into chemo-therapy, which in turn will destroy so much of your body ............................ oh well ...........


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3411 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 9):
and in the 1950ies/60ies WestGerman Federal Chancellor Konrad Adenauer. A

In Germany, the Vice Chancellor will not become Chancellor automatically. Quite contrary, in a coalition government, the VC is usually from the smaller coalition partners party. The Bundestag will vote a new chancellor into office and the VC remains what he is, the VC.

But as what said, in a de facto dictaorshipm things work a bit different.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
Anti-Chavez commentators are reporting that Chavez is on life support with very weak vital signs.

The source for this report (true or fake, it appears very detailed) is from the Spanish newspaper ABC (article in Spanish):

http://www.abc.es/internacional/2013...ez-coma-inducido-201301011903.html

That information is being published all over, but the source is the same. OTOH, trying to get reliable information from Cuba or Venezuela's government is a huge challenge to say the least, so the lack of sources is not surprising.

Whether we choose to believe or discard the information, the subdued tone of the officials and the information trickling in are consistent with a very bad prognosis. If he were in any better shape the officials would be furiously denying the reports, especially considering all of the doubts now arising WRT January 10th.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
Alright, but Chavez ought to be allowed to stay on as president also if being under medical treatment

He is.

I don't know what the constitution of Venezuela says about a President dying during office.
In any case, I'm guessing the political landscape is going to become quite electric...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 13):
in a coalition government,

I well remember late 1963 when Vice President Johnson was sworn in as President of the USA on the flight from Dallas to Washington. And I up to now did NOT regard the USA as a dictatorship !


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6925 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Well the US VP is on the ticket with the president, and if he is replaced he has to be confirmed, so it's a little different from Venezuela. But to be honest I find the thing quite strange nonetheless, and am quite happy with the French system, if the president dies or resigns, new elections are called, with the president of the senate assuming the powers during the short interim.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Well the US VP is on the ticket with the president, and if he is replaced he has to be confirmed, so it's a little different from Venezuela. But to be honest I find the thing quite strange nonetheless, and am quite happy with the French system, if the president dies or resigns, new elections are called, with the president of the senate assuming the powers during the short interim.

This is true but
> LBJ was already President of the USA upon landing in Washington-DC and so could expect the congress to "confirm"
> French presidents when being ill were NOT replaced but had the power simply been taken over by the Prime Minister. Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin for many months too over functions of Jacques Chirac when Mr Chirac was ill. In most countries on earth, democracies and dictatorships alike, state leaders are NOT replaced just because they are ill.
> I am totally opposed to the idea that a head of state is automatically replaced just because he is in bad health. Alright, if this is the constitution of Venezuela so be it


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3178 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 16):
I well remember late 1963 when Vice President Johnson was sworn in as President of the USA on the flight from Dallas to Washington. And I up to now did NOT regard the USA as a dictatorship !

Where did I say that the USA is a dictactorship? Every child in the US knows that the VP is one heart beat away from being president, the constitution mandats an automatic transfer and the supreme court judge will take the formalities as soon as he is available to do that. . If something happens to the Chancellor in Germany, the vice chanvellor takes over for an interims period until a new chancellor is voted by the members of parliament. That won't be the VC since we usually have coalition governments here and the VC is from the smaller party. The chancellor is always from the leading party.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Where did I say that the USA is a dictactorship?

NOWHERE of course, and neither did I say that you said so. What I mean is that the automatic succession of a political leader does not indicate democracy of dictatorship. In Switzerland, each Minister has a deputy among the other 6 ministers who has to take over in case one of them passes away. Sure, the congress, which means both chambers of parliament will convene and elect a new Minister, but until the new Minister takes office, the deputy will have two ministries. So that the details differ. And in many rather dictatorial countries, in case of the death of the ruler, a complicated procedure often gets applied.

I however dislike the idea that any acting state president is to be dropped just because of some illness. Back to Switzerland, there have been cases when an officeholder was ill for many months and that the deputy simply lead the other ministry "kommissarisch".


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3043 times:

I've been following twitter for a few days now about Chavez. It seems like the only place where some information can be found. I find it disgraceful that the Venezuelan people are kept in the dark, not only by being cryptic but also through outright lies. Now they acknowledge that he's been on a respirator. I wonder how the vice president managed to talk to him then? I don't know what their idea is as far as January 10th. I think there is real cause for concern...


God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3022 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 21):
the only place where some information can be found. I find it disgraceful that the Venezuelan people are kept in the dark,

Political officeholders and their "surrounding" everywhere in such cases try to keep the actual state of the topman out of the public. A very rare exception was King Hussein bin Talal, who in detail spoke about his health in public. Everybody knew about his impending death when he was returned to Amman in a record speed flight on board of the Royal Jordanian TriStar. He arrived in Amman just in time to regain full consciousness and to sign the succession docs in favour of his son, Abdullah II . But again, this is an exception. Usual business is that people in charge try to hide whatever can be hidden.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

Has Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez died?

Coming from several different sources:

ABC Report: Hugo Chavez DEAD ??
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...01/01/abc-report-hugo-chavez-dead/

"@Martins_Fati : Cuba's FM M. Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla confirmed me by phone the death of President Chávez."???
https://twitter.com/mattgutmanABC/statuses/286285240752803840

Image of Chavez in casket
http://www.ryot.org/wp-content/uploa...13-01-05-at-3.21.10-PM-630x418.png

Leaked video: Hugo chaves muere ( hugo chavez dead ) died 4 january 2013
(some say the casket picture is fake)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYNck0G4Xys

I see nothing on RT and nothing on PressTV (those are two channels who would be friendly to Chavez) and nothing on the BBC World news site.

Maybe it's all hyped up and not true.
I suppose we will find out soon if he really died.

   Wow!       



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

As far as I'm aware, there will be new elections automatically (according to constitution) should Chavez pass away during the first four years of his five year presidency.

User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2935 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 23):
Has Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez died?

I don´t think he is deas yet. But there have been certain movements within Venezuela by the government over the past 48 hrs. that are telling.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
I don´t think he is deas yet. But there have been certain movements within Venezuela by the government over the past 48 hrs. that are telling.

I just wonder if that is speculation that he will not be able to take his oath of office on Thursday the 10th or if he has passed.

I speculated that he could take his oath in Cuba but I am not sure if that is constitutional or not.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 24):
As far as I'm aware, there will be new elections automatically (according to constitution) should Chavez pass away during the first four years of his five year presidency

Well that changes my perception. Just assumed that the presidency passed to the VP.
So my question would be what happens during the fifth year?

Okie


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
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Quoting okie (Reply 26):
So my question would be what happens during the fifth year?

As far as I know, if he can´t take the oath, on the 10th, the President of the National Assembly (Congress) will take the office and has to call for new elections within 30 days. That is why yesterday, Diosdado Cabello, although another of Chavez´s men, but a rival to Maduro, was elected President of said assembly.

If Chavez dies, before January the 10th, since technically this is still the older presidency, Maduro has to assume as he is the Vice President, until the 10th, when then Cabello will have to call the shots and then elections within 30 days.

If Chavez takes the oath from Cuba, but dies in the next four years, then the office goes to the President of the National Assembly, which has to call elections in 30 days.

If he dies after the 4th year, then the VP takes over and finishes the term.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):

Thanks AR385 for the claification.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
That is why yesterday, Diosdado Cabello, although another of Chavez´s men, but a rival to Maduro, was elected President of said assembly.

Appears to be plenty of jockeying for position in case of Chavez passes.
So I am assuming that Cabello could run for the presidency as well even if he is the president of the assembly and would have control of the media outlets that Chavez controlled.
Looking like Maduro would be left out in the cold so to speak which I do not know if that is bad or good.

Interesting times for Venezuela

Okie


User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2930 times:
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Quoting okie (Reply 28):
So I am assuming that Cabello could run for the presidency as well even if he is the president of the assembly and would have control of the media outlets that Chavez controlled.

Well, Chavez made it clear when he left to Cuba that he wanted Maduro to be "his successor" wether he detailed the means, I´m not sure.

As for Maduro and Cabello running for the presidency, I don´t know if Venezuelan electoral law allows two candidates from the same party to run for the same office. Mexico doesn´t.

Interesting times, as you said.


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
Political officeholders and their "surrounding" everywhere in such cases try to keep the actual state of the topman out of the public.

I understand what you're saying but even in South America it seems like things have been more open... cases such as Lula in Brazil, Lugo in Paraguay and even CFK in Argentina (when it was thought she had cancer).

Today the argument from Chavez's supporters seems to be that if Chavez cannot be sworn at the General Assembly of Congress then he can be sworn through the Supreme Tribunal of Justice. The technicality here is that apparently the constitution does not specify "when" in the latter scenario. So by that maneuver they pretend to actually extend his mandate. At the same time, the president is considered absent if: he is dead, or mentally/physically incapacitated to execute his duties. This last condition must be verified by a committee of medical doctors, impartial and agreed upon by all parties as I understand it. This is what the opposition is requesting.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2728 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 30):
At the same time, the president is considered absent if: he is dead, or mentally/physically incapacitated to execute his duties

Many officeholders for weeks or months are incapacitated.


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2683 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 31):
Many officeholders for weeks or months are incapacitated.

Right. But there seems to be an intention of keeping under wraps the fact that Chavez's state as incapacitated is a terminal, irreversible state. The latest seems to be (the operative word is "seems" because information is so hard to come by) that personnel from the clinic are not allowed to come out, supposedly to cut down on the information leaks. The truth will have to come out eventually, but so far it seems they're doing all they can to buy themselves time to figure out a way to avoid elections.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2669 times:
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Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
The truth will have to come out eventually, but so far it seems they're doing all they can to buy themselves time to figure out a way to avoid elections.

Or just to keep the day to day activities in Venezuela going without the turmoil caused by the minute to minute update if Chavez health. The same thing would happen here in the US if something were to happen to our president. Until some sort of concrete status change happened there would just be hours of media speculation and guessing as to what it means, with little or no actual facts coming out.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 33):

I have a really hard time imagining this dynamic taking place in this way in the US. We just saw the medical reports on Hillary Clinton's health without any kind of secrecy. Even if there is no status change, the people do have a right to know. I could understand if they said something like "there is nothing new to report, the condition remains the same". But what they have come out with are outright lies, in the meantime accusing anyone who reported differently to be trying to destabilize Venezuela. All of that to later having to recognize that the leaked reports were right on the mark.

The other thing is that this is not the middle of the mandate. He is 3 days away from being sworn in office again. That is hugely significant and if anything they are the ones causing instability by hiding the information. Now they're playing with the letter of the Constitution as people try to play with the letter of The Bible at times to back up their views.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2537 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
fact that Chavez's state as incapacitated is a terminal, irreversible state

-
How sure are you with this information ?

Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
they're doing all they can to buy themselves time to figure out a way to avoid elections.

-
They either have to "push him up" to a position in which he can attend the ceremony in a wheelchair, and then the VicePresident might declare that the President is on his way back up but could not give the speech, so that the VicePresident would speak instead. They even may use a "double"

The use of a double might explain the "time-getting-exercise" as the double possibly gets intensive training until the last available minute.

He himself or the double then will be flown back to Havanna, and two days later, a tearful VicePresident will anounce to the nation that the President had just passed away

Compare it with the "Fidel Castro Opera Show" ! How sure are you that it really is Fidel Castro who sometimes appears on TV, gives "interviews" and "receives" foreign leaders ? Raoul Castro needs the "figure" of his older brother in order to keep his reign stable, and so possibly regularily meets the actor-in-charge !


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
How sure are you with this information ?

Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and leaves duck s**t all over. I am not "sure", but it probably is a duck. Of course the government is not saying it. They risk exposing the whole mess. The elections were supposed to take place in December but they knew he wouldn't make it that far in shape, so they held them earlier. The fact is that after all their fury against anybody reporting Chavez as being in his final days, they haven't been able to show evidence to the contrary (which they would have if there had been any). The whole crackdown on any kind of information (except for the "stable" and "assimilating treatment" given by Villegas yesterday, which is an elegant way of saying nothing) only reinforces that he's not getting any better and his life is being supported artificially, unlikely to reverse at all.

Running doubles seems very far fetched (I'm not saying it can't be done, I just don't see it). At the same time, he can't be pulled away from the respirator to sit in a wheelchair and pretend to take the oath. Again, I am not "sure" but I don't see it happening.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
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They are going ahead with a "virtual" swearing in ceremony in Congress. What does this mean, I´m not sure.

President Mujica from Uruguay is attendinng
President Morales from Bolivia is attending
President Rouseff from Brazil has officially apporved of this but has not confirmed she is attending
President Schizophrenia (Fernández, from Argentina) is said to be attending.

What a horrible mockery of the Constitution and lack of respect for the Venezuelans.

[Edited 2013-01-08 12:35:46]

User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 37):
What a horrible mockery of the Constitution and lack of respect for the Venezuelans.

Couldn't agree more...



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 36):
his final days, they haven't been able to show evidence to the contrary

-
they do not have to prove anything or show any evidence.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 36):
Running doubles seems very far fetched

-
Far fetched it may be, but done it is all the time. Saddam al-Takriti had THREE doubles in his service.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 37):
going ahead with a "virtual" swearing in ceremony in Congress. What does this mean, I´m not sure.

President Mujica from Uruguay is attendinng
President Morales from Bolivia is attending

So that Mujica and Morales will be in Congress in Caracas and Chavez most likely will become "present" by video conference


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
they do not have to prove anything or show any evidence.

They'll have to do something. By now they have acknowledged that he won't be there on the 10th. Information is in Spanish only at this time, I'll get a link in English when available:

http://www.lagaceta.com.ar/nota/5284...z-no-tomara-posesion-10-enero.html

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
Far fetched it may be, but done it is all the time.

Apparently not this time.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
Chavez most likely will become "present" by video conference

Don't count on it...



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 40):
I'll get a link in English when available

Here it is:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...jan-10-for-new-venezuela-term.html



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 41):

Here it is:

A lung infection on top of a just survived cancer surgery can well turn to be fatal, no doubt. The end for him can indeed arrive at any time. But there of course is a chance of real survival and an actual return to active life.


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2281 times:

At this point I'm starting to sound like I want him to die. I feel no admiration for him, but what he has been through is truly horrible and I don't wish it on anyone.

Having said that, the cancer has not gone away, has not responded to treatment. Part of the problem is that his immune system is compromised, some of it by the steroids given to him to stay strong through his campaigning. The most they can say is that he is "stable", which as I mentioned doesn't mean a thing. He has not improved. No doubt they would have said something by now, and it's been almost a month since the surgery. No matter who you listen to, there are no reports of improvement anywhere. He's tethering on the edge as far as his infections, but at the same time the cancer keeps progressing. I do believe in miracles, and that's the only thing that will make him come back to Venezuela alive IMO: a miracle.

Now the presence of the presidents of Uruguay, Bolivia and Haiti is considered to be a show of support to the government and the people of Venezuela (that's what Uruguay's president said), certainly not an act of transition. As previously stated, Chavez's supporters claim that there is no time limit for him to take the oath before the STJ and the congress has already declared that he can take all the time he needs.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 43):
I feel no admiration for him

I earlier on regarded him just as another "want-to-be-dictator" and a demagogue. He got my sympathy, or rather solidarity when he got cancer.

I did have cancer in 1988, but it could be totally cured by one single surgery. They however cut two or three lymphotic "railways" so that I after about 2002 for 10 years needed a rubber-thing on my right leg. By some wonders the things partially repaired themselves so that I can no do without the rubber things, but back to normal it will never be again. And I for related reasons need an injection each month. And some five years ago had to forget about cardriving (I loved driving !). But nevertheless, if I compare with others, I am very well off          and can eat and drink whatever I like, and the doc sees no limits to a long life.

But since those days in July 88, I feel a definite solidarity to whomever has to struggle with cancer. I love to wait in the oncology department of the hospital when I can see numbers of other survivors. "WE" actually have expanded and taken over space which formerly was with other departments. Well, those oncology-"habituées" are not exactly a happy jolly bunch of peop'le, but a fairly relaxed sort of people who in the past survived something, others did not. We all of course are aware of the point that the matter can return and kill us, and most of us can still well remember the fears, the agony and the desperations of the fateful days when our lifes were in severe danger.

I therefore "opened up" my past and present files to the international cancer research.

In fact, out of common sense, he should step down. But power-hunger genereally kills common sense


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):

Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so glad that you were able to survive it and were cured. I guess everyone knows someone close by who has suffered through it. In my case it was a very close friend, a few years after the experience you shared. I tried to stand by him and his family as much as I could, but I will never claim to know what it's like. Only the ones who live it can do that. This whole situation reminds me so much of him because he also got part of his intestine removed, and later did not survive the post surgery infections. And it went the same way: there was just no improvement as the weeks went by even though he held on all he could. You certainly have my respect for what you endured and I congratulate you for sharing your files to the ICR, as well as for your positive message.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 45):
did not survive the post surgery infections.

whatever "infections" were involved, the basic problem is that you PRE surgery have between 1000 and 3000 cancer cells getting "bombed" into you body, and so the resistance capability of your body is severely reduced. I was on a holiday trip to Istanbul, Cairo/Alexandria/Cairo, Muscat, Dubai, Cairo, Larnaca, when I in Istanbul realized in what mess I was. It may not have been good for the liver, but to have two glasses of Vodka on each evening helped me through. I enjoyed the holiday trip in spite or even because I realized that it might have become my last holiday trip.

Just to give you an idea. About three weeks after the surgery I had to go to a test of the lymphotic "railroads". They put some liquids into your fingers which had to get through your body and exit through the toes. The whole affair lasted for more than two hours. It came to an end, and some 3 hours after the start of it all, a British doctor, actually a delegate of the Imperial Cancer Research Society, came to me and congratulated me for my second birthday, saying "you are over the hill --- eternal life you have not, but a normal lifespan for sure" . You may imagine which collection boxes I on visits to the UK Channel ISlands and the UK each time quite generously "filled" !


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):
eternal life you have not, but a normal lifespan for sure

I can't begin to imagine how that must have felt considering how much you went through. Yeah no trouble at all guessing the collection boxes!

I suppose if someone gave you the chance to relive your life being able to choose whether you went through all that again you would probably choose not to. But it does seem that having survived your ordeal has given you a deep, remarkable perspective on things. I mean no disrespect by my comments (I really don't know what I'm talking about here). It's just that trying to visualize the things you're recounting, well it is really impressive.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Donde es la problema? They could make him eternal president, like Kim Il Sung in North Korea and these nasty ceremonies could be replaced by wonderful festivals in a large stadium with people showing funny pictures made up from zillion card boards. I am sure, Baby Kim will by more than happy, agaoinst some oil deliveries, to advise on the choreography.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently onlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6592 posts, RR: 35
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2136 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):
Donde es la problema? They could make him eternal president, like Kim Il Sung in North Korea and these nasty ceremonies could be replaced by wonderful festivals in a large stadium with people showing funny pictures made up from zillion card boards. I am sure, Baby Kim will by more than happy, agaoinst some oil deliveries, to advise on the choreography.

¿Dónde está el problema? The problem is that the Venezuelan people are not deserving of this. I know you are being sarcastic, but Venezuela is not the Hermit Kingdom. Their economy is, as we speak, tanking, and inaction by Chavez, as he seems to be the only one with enough political capital to be able to take the hard, important decisions seems to be happy holding court in bed, in Havana. Screw the people is what he´s and his minions are saying. This is going to turn out to be one of the major political and econimic crises of 2013.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 48):

First Problem is that we do not have even a big Stadium in Caracas   . Thats why the national Football Team never plays in CCS


Wow I am really foresee a big mess in the next Weeks! Lets see and wait, finally their is not much to do. Specially as it looks like that most people already accepted the new "reality"


Regards



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9735 posts, RR: 31
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2122 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 49):
Dónde está el problema? The problem is that the V

My Spanish is indeed a bit rusty and I realised the "está" when I hit the send button. I should have taken the offer to go to CCS instead of HAM but that was 40 years ago. Thanks for correcting me.

My remark was more than a bit sarcastic. But Venezuela has to be vigil, twisting the constitution is unacceptable.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2098 times:

There are a lot of people here in Uruguay questioning the fact that our president is there. The governments here suspended Paraguay from Mercosur after they unseated their president through constitutional means, AND in the process took advantage and invited Venezuela into the Mercosur (Paraguay had been the only one stopping this).

There were cries of outrage because their ideological pal Lugo had been removed (even though it was all legal).

But NOW they're happy to go along with a circus put up by the Chavez regime, illegally extending a presidential term, NOT designating a medical committee to officially state Chavez's true condition (there is no need for that, they say) and feeding the people the fantasy that "Chavez can take the oath whenever he is able to" as if there was any chance that he could take office again. I was saying earlier that I do believe in miracles, but I don't see this one happening.

And there is our president, declaring to the press that the world needs more people like Chavez.

Since they don't have a president, and they like him so much, I wonder if he could just stay there...



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

Quoting 757gb (Reply 47):
remarkable perspective on things.

Well, I then gradually learnt to see the beauty of nice flowers, the beauty of nice trees, the beauty of nice bridges etc ! And developed a far more relaxed view of things


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