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A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US  
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4739 times:

I'm surprised no one here is discussing this, maybe the information hasn't reached you yet ?

The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Here is a random link that seems to show a good picture of the situation, but use your usual news source if you prefer : http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/mali/

I'm going to bed now, feel free to discuss !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4734 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Apparently the UK is sending a couple of C17s to assist. No troops though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...anes-to-assist-Mali-operation.html



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11123 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4723 times:

How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved. The huge humanitarian fiasco there was in Darfur but no one did anything about it outside George Cloony and Matt Damon. Because there is nothing in it for the United States corporations.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days ago) and read 4679 times:
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Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved

How much does Afghanistan have? Some, but not a massive amount - and most of their oil business has gone to China anyway. In any event, various news sources currently indicate that the US is indeed considering providing support to the French operation, and I'd be surprised if that doesn't come to fruition.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2672 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 5 days ago) and read 4676 times:

I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Wonder how this French intervention will turn the tide? Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated? Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4649 times:

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
Without The US

... ... and ??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 690 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
French troops are doing it,

French troops and French national policy taking the primary and initial stand does great service to both the practical and ideological power France holds in the world. I'm happy to see France aggressively asserting it claim to moral leadership in world affairs.


Pu


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade   


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

the beleaguered northwest African country whose northern section has been overrun by Islamist guerillas

Oh I'm sure they're just SO misunderstood.  
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.


  
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US
Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved.


...but let's beat up on the US anyway.  
I remember you supported US aggression in Libya 2 years ago which has far more oil than Mali.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6996 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3759 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?

Er, I think you need to look up on your history there. Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Wonder how this French intervention will turn the tide? Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated? Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?

They've done this sort of thing before, in this part of the world too. Not just against Islamists either, in the 1980's Qaddafi was moving into Chad, supporting anti government forces with his troops. Chad has major uranium deposits. The French, with air-strikes and troops helped the Chadian rout the Libyans. In one action, rather like the early SAS missions in the Western Desert in WW2, they drove the Libyans from their base and captured a huge pile of military equipment. It was serious stuff, with Lybian Tupolev bombers being shot down by French air to surface missiles included.

Qaddafi was mightily pissed at being humiliated, so he responded in they only way he knew how. In 1989 a French UTA DC-10 was blown up over Africa by a bomb. You bet the French were in the forefront of the action against him in 2011, maybe that first strike against Gaddafi's' forces besieging Benghazi, before the UK and the US had formally, finally, committed themselves to take action, was not only to prevent a massacre, it was payback too.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade

I refer you to my post above!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame

I also refer you to my post above and ask you consider this; France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does, therefore when taking action they have to strategize to fit these resources, they cannot go in like the US did in Iraq for instance. They have to work with the local forces - not disband them - they have to devise a clear exit strategy too. They had their 'Vietnam' (after losing Vietnam in 1954), in Algeria in the late 1950's with even worse domestic consequences than the US suffered. This has informed their military planning ever since.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):

Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.

As well as the above, I would remind you that France has had significant forces in Afghanistan for periods of time, they've provided with their bases in the Horn Of Africa logistic support for the US since 2001,
They provided significant forces in the 1991 Gulf War, the one that under international law was legitimate.
Also were having to deal with Islamist extremism well before the US (or UK for that matter), did. Including storming an AF A310 hijacked by militants in Dec 1994. After a source they had within that group revealed the true intention of the hi-jack, once refuelled the plane would be flown to Paris and crashed on the city. The bad guys learned from their mistakes then. Did the vast US security and defence bureaucracy even register this event? It seems not.

It might be the often hostile, almost knee-jerk attitude to France from many in the US is a result of being ill informed, reliant on lazy stereotypes.
We British are the historic experts at 'not getting on' with the French! But we've been allies since 1904, the US has since 1776 however!


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4485 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
They had their 'Vietnam' (after losing Vietnam in 1954), in Algeria in the late 1950's

They also lost their own country in 1940.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
They also lost their own country in 1940.

Yes. The reasons why was rooted in what happened on their soil between 1914-18. The horror of the trenches, the scale of the slaughter, not for nothing was the battle of Verdun called 'the meat grinder'.

After that experience they suffered crippling political instability in the following two decades, the military commanders were old, tired, haunted men in 1940, who had staked much of their defence on a huge system of forts, gun emplacements, underground barracks, all to repel any German invasion and to avoid any repetition in the trenches of WW1.
It was a mightily impressive undertaking, this 'Maginot Line'. But it did not extend through Belgium and was outflanked by the Germans surging through a vast wooded area of Belgium, thought to be impassable to tanks.
Still, over 80,000 French soldiers died in 1940, tens of thousands of civilians too.

When you hear of ideas for a perfect defensive systems, of various kinds, an example being the whole 'Star Wars' of the 1980's, or missile defence in various forms, on a strategic level at least, since, it's maybe worth viewing these as potential latter day 'Maginot Lines'.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4411 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated?

They never are, unfortunately. Ideology-based terrorism is like a bad cancer.
It spreads and feed on the violence it generates. The dead become martyrs and push more and more people to join a cause they don't understand. It is no surprise that it happens in places that are poor and with limited education. The best we can hope for is that they will retreat and be weakened enough to not immediately regroup and become violent again.

Temporary remission...

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

We called it Indochina... It was a disaster. Amazingly enough, it seems that 50 years later, our western nations still aren't faring any better in Guerilla-type wars.

And yes, the comments about the US are out of line and completely gratuitous. Whereas France has taken the lead aggressive role on this one due to cultural and political ties with Mali, I am pretty certain the US is or will shortly be involved in this in one way or another.
Our foreign policies seem to have been mostly on the same phase in the last few years.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4392 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.

Thanks for insulting our sacrifice,

Signed

Every British soldier, dead and alive.



......for that matter, you might want to look at the spread of nationalities serving in Afghanistan. Please stop propogating the myth that only the US actually contributes any forces to global security.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started

Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

 

The "rebels" of Mali are members of the same international organizations as the "rebels" of the Free Syria Army (FSA).

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4373 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

That's pretty much it at the moment, yes. We'll realise how stupid we were, with all this talk about giving the fighters in Syria arms etc, when in a couple of years we end up with a hardline menace in charge of that country.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
I'm surprised no one here is discussing this, maybe the information hasn't reached you yet ?

Yes, I missed these news nearly. Despite being an avid reader on the BBC news site, on Zeit.de and other newspaper websites. Time to read up and make up my mind.

I have to have a talk with colleagues who have worked with nomadic tribes in northern Mali to improve their health. I wonder what they think.

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
It was a mightily impressive undertaking, this 'Maginot Line'. But it did not extend through Belgium and was outflanked by the Germans surging through a vast wooded area of Belgium, thought to be impassable to tanks.
Still, over 80,000 French soldiers died in 1940, tens of thousands of civilians too.

  

The number of French lives lost in WWII is higher than the number of dead Americans. Still, many countries had to bring a tremendous sacrifice to save us from the Nazis and Japanese Empire. (Switerland has about 400 soldiers dead, most of them drowned in exercises. In the end of 1944, we could have relieved the First French Army in the Alsace campaign, or opened a new front along the Swiss-German border to shorten the war.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...281940%29#French_counter-offensive is a worthy read, IMHO.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4320 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.

It's "natural" yes, however for months politicians and military specialists alike were saying there would be no boots on the ground, only formation and assistance, because our relations with former colonies is a complicated one. It seems the march on the south and a new civilian taken hostage in the region sealed the deal. Having a Malian colleague, when this started he didn't expect or want a French intervention, but now he's glad that it's happening.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
Without The US

... ... and ??

Well that's an interesting twist I would think.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade

I'm fine with that if those wars stay in the same ballpark as the Libyan one. I'm sure it will help our military modernize, I just realized yesterday that despite several development programs our current drone fleet is ridiculously small and only suited for surveillance, that has to change.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
Whereas France has taken the lead aggressive role on this one due to cultural and political ties with Mali, I am pretty certain the US is or will shortly be involved in this in one way or another.

Well no direct way at least since apparently the US legally can't. I would be glad if they could lend us some Reapers.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

It's more complicated than that, for both countries. There has been a dispute over northern Mali for a long time, and the nomads that claim that territory are not jihadists. However when they made their move the territory became an instant magnet for jihadists that took over. In Syria, the events started with peaceful protests from unarmed civilians, again not jihadists. Now the war is fought on several fronts and we're not saying the jihadists are good nor helping them.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4285 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
I'm fine with that if those wars stay in the same ballpark as the Libyan one. I'm sure it will help our military modernize, I just realized yesterday that despite several development programs our current drone fleet is ridiculously small and only suited for surveillance, that has to change.

I am not OK with any of these interventions. There are hidden motivations behind them.

Quote:
"two foreign companies signed oil and gas exploration deals with the Malian government “that oblige them to invest millions of US dollars in the search of petroleum in the country's vast desert. Both Algeria's national oil company SONATRACH and the Canadian owned Selier Energy say that the vast Taoudeni basin, at Mali's borders with Mauritania and Algeria, shows great potential for major oil and gas discoveries.” (9) In a world hungry for energy resources, who will get control of these reserves? U.S. strategists are fearful of China’s growing influence, adding competition to greed as motives to control the area."

"When they were finally forced out of Africa in 1960, the French left behind desperately poor countries. Today Mali remains the 23rd poorest country on earth, with the 49th lowest life expectancy – barely 53 years. "

"that the U.S. military is already in the country and the presence of known oil reserves under the desert sands of northern Mali."

http://warisacrime.org/content/us-hands-mali

France and USA only true reason for being in Mali...

                 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

So you're fine with "jihadists" taking over Africa then ? Make up your mind.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):

Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Why would the US get involved, do tell?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
I remember you supported US aggression in Libya 2 years ago which has far more oil than Mali.

It's the other way around it was French and UK aggression supported by the US, the French dropped the most bombs and flew over 35% of the combat missions, there were also British SAS, SBS & SRR troops on the ground co-ordinating the bombing. But of course you will believe what you want and continue your anti Obama crusade.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
So you're fine with "jihadists" taking over Africa then ? Make up your mind.

It seems you did not read my previous post.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):

Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

The "rebels" of Mali are members of the same international organizations as the "rebels" of the Free Syria Army (FSA).

I smell a rat.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Quote:
"two foreign companies signed oil and gas exploration deals with the Malian government “that oblige them to invest millions of US dollars in the search of petroleum in the country's vast desert. Both Algeria's national oil company SONATRACH and the Canadian owned Selier Energy say that the vast Taoudeni basin, at Mali's borders with Mauritania and Algeria, shows great potential for major oil and gas discoveries.” (9) In a world hungry for energy resources, who will get control of these reserves? U.S. strategists are fearful of China’s growing influence, adding competition to greed as motives to control the area."

Do you have an idea how expensive it will be to get this oil to the markets? Not just will they have to build up the whole infrastructure, including pipelines through half of the Sahara, they also will have to pay transit fees from the other countries the pipeline to the coast runs through, since Mali is landlocked.
The oil or gas field must be very big to pay for all the expenses and STILL leave a profit.

Jan


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
It might be the often hostile, almost knee-jerk attitude to France from many in the US is a result of being ill informed, reliant on lazy stereotypes.

This country lives on stereotypes. Of course this is not limited to US but it is stronger here than just about any other place I have been.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6942 posts, RR: 18
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

Here's the issue with Africa:
No one has any clue what's going on.
With the exceptions of South Africa and some others, most governments are either dictatorial, run by jihadists, or have very little control over the country, which means its run by radicals..



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6996 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
Including storming an AF A310 hijacked by militants in Dec 1994

That aircraft was a french aircraft and it was in France. Who else was suppose to do it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
for that matter, you might want to look at the spread of nationalities serving in Afghanistan. Please stop propogating the myth that only the US actually contributes any forces to global security.

I am not dumb. I know other countries have helped the U.S. I said "stepping up" as in a country taking the lead. Making its own decisions. Not even needing or asking the U.S. for help.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

You would find it exceptionally difficult to get the US public to support another intervention. We don't need another 10 year war and the voters would find it hard to agree to another endless intervention.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does,

We don't have an unlimited military resource - especially after the Iraq Folly. Far too many enlisted men and officers were abused with too many deployments & too little time at home to recover, rebuild families and retrain for another deployment. We used backdoor drafts to keep good personnel on active duty long after their EOS. We've seen officers, especially O-4 level officers (Majors) who resigned because of the abuses that were dumped on families with these over deployments.

We have also spent far too much money for wars on the credit card. Nice for private companies like Halliburton, but certainly not in this country's interests.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4273 times:
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Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
I am not dumb. I know other countries have helped the U.S. I said "stepping up" as in a country taking the lead. Making its own decisions. Not even needing or asking the U.S. for help.

Then don't make such silly statements. Last time I checked, we took joint action. We may be smaller than the US but the UK has been there ALL the way.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2037 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4232 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):

I really agree with you here. Africa is still a mystery for many. For too long a time westerners have tried to teach Africa, without ever listening to Africans. We see them as poor, undeveloped, and we forget that there have been cities with 30'000 inhabitants in Tanzania. Back in the 17th century and before.

Many African countries are either landlocked, or they are elongated, meaning that they have a short coastline, but the country extends far into the continent. This was done so by the colonial powers, and such elongated countries serve only one purpose... to carry raw materials from the source to the seaport.

Which meant that railways didn't serve to connect cities, or provide a sustainable network for economic development.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
That's pretty much it at the moment, yes. We'll realise how stupid we were, with all this talk about giving the fighters in Syria arms etc, when in a couple of years we end up with a hardline menace in charge of that country

There will be Jihadists there, there have been elements of them in the other uprisings too. Most are not, most of the rebels have limited military experience, sometimes none at all.
If you have a large uprising in Muslim nations that have been run by a small, corrupt, brutal clique, there will be extreme elements operating, in part created by our safe, comfortable standards, being ruled in a rather extreme way, for many the whole of their lives.

So far however, how have these elements fared? By that I mean Jihadists as in those wanting to replace the oppression they are fighting with an even worse one, this time, theocratic. Who also may well be disposed to export their brand of extremism, either to destabilise the region and/or create terror further away.

We know from what was recovered from a now demolished building in Pakistan, that the once operational leader, or just inspiration for these people, in his final weeks, mourned the fact that his ideas, supporters, were making little or no headway. Mainly because after all the years of his planning, funding, urging the populations of these nations to rise up when they finally did, it had nothing to do with either his organisation or ideas. They were as taken by surprise as much the rulers under threat were.

They've not even been out of the playbook that Al Qeada considered to be the way to do it, which they had applied, with no success, in places like Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen in the past. These failed.
They had used a small cell of terrorists create large scale deaths in the civilian population, who would blame their rulers, rise up, the rulers would ramp up oppression but this would enrage the population towards victory. Headed by the terrorists.
What has happened since 2011, succeeded in Egypt and Morocco, was not sparked by brutally directed Islamist attacks, the uprisings have been mass movements from the start with disparate elements, often with internal tensions and often little direction.

Many of the rebels in these places are fighting and dying for more freedom, not to have a new form of oppression.
They are mostly more Western orientated amongst the younger element than Islamist. But they are Muslim.

Islamists will have been trying to play catch up but that won't be helped by the constant attrition on their command and control networks, they are spending at lot of time literally, keeping their heads down.
These nations, Syria in particular, have complex societies, simple missives like 'they are all Jihadists' really do not begin to understand the situations, much less consider, if anything, what to do.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
That aircraft was a french aircraft and it was in France. Who else was suppose to do it.

I would have thought my point was clear? They established that there was, within Islamist groups, a whole new form of hijacking very different from the experience of the previous 25 years or so. This clearly was not registered elsewhere since it happened again, in a far worse form, there was no contingencies matched to this sort of event, it's probably also true to say the prospect of such an attack might not have figured in intelligence analysis. Would it have made any difference in 2001? Who can say? The point is France had experience of the form of Islamist terror that emerged after the Cold War.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 28):
We don't have an unlimited military resource - especially after the Iraq Folly.

I know, it just can look like you do from this side of the pond!


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

There is much more about this "war on terror" than we are being told.
Western countries would not be going to Mali if the place had no natural resources, oil, gold and other.

The size and scope of the Islam/China Africa take over is staggering, this is a race for not only vast resources that are untapped but some of the best farm land in the world that is not yet developed.

http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/...a-really-building-100-dams-in.html

     



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

Its unfortunate France must drag up its ugly past colonial face and go play the gendarmerie in Africa.

France could pay a high price for its adventures both in the short run and in the long run both at home and abroad.

Frankly let the local people do what they need to for themselves to decide what type of government or nation they wish.

Bringing the colonial white man back to fix a local dispute is the wrong path. Its sad how taboo of Islam brings Armées françaises out of its garrisons.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Frankly let the local people do what they need to for themselves to decide what type of government or nation they wish.

Bringing the colonial white man back to fix a local dispute is the wrong path. Its sad how taboo of Islam brings Armées françaises out of its garrisons.

France is leading the effort, however there are major Malian forces involved, as well as an increasing number from other African nations.
The Malians threatened by the almost psychotic nature of these Islamists, those already killed, maimed, no longer allowed to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, including Mali's great musical heritage, are rather less concerned about theorising on post Colonial guilt from the comfort and safety of the West.
Indeed they've been shouting for help.

And the some 6000 French nationals in Mali too.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
Western countries would not be going to Mali if the place had no natural resources, oil, gold and other.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Its unfortunate France must drag up its ugly past colonial face and go play the gendarmerie in Africa.


So far, comments from African countries on the French invervention have been very positive and this even includes those from Algeria. Perhaps this indicates that France is doing something right.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

French military surprised by 'well-trained, well-equipped and well-armed' Mali Islamists
- @BBCNews

"In addition to creating defenses, the fighters are amassing supplies, experts said. A local who was taken by Islamists into a cave in the region of Kidal described an enormous room, where several cars were parked. Along the walls, he counted up to 100 barrels of gasoline."

"Those weapons include the SA-7 and SA-2 surface-to-air missiles, according to Hamaha, which can shoot down aircrafts."

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-al-q...es-own-country-mali-091304997.html

    Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
So far, comments from African countries on the French invervention have been very positive and this even includes those from Algeria. Perhaps this indicates that France is doing something right.

Remember about ten years ago, when AQIM were cutting the throats of the inhabitants of whole villages, which they accused of supporting the government, in Algeria? I think the majority of the people there want a return of the fundamentalists. Also, from what I understand, most people in Northern Mali are Sufi Muslims, a sect which considered as heretic by the Salafists and Wahabis of AQIM.

Jan


User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Just fine by me! I hope Barry and Co. don't stick their noses into this nonsense like they did Libya.

Other countries are well equipped to combat the world's enemies. I hope the U.S stays on the sidelines of any minor conflict for quite some time.

Vive la France/GB



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis. Don't need to go to Mali.
I find France is two-sided.

Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis. Don't need to go to Mali.
I find France is two-sided.

Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

Wow!

they can´t make it right for you?

If you don´t see that a power vacuum in a failed stare (which Northern Mali is since the Tuareg rebellion drove the government army out and where there is no new government established yet) creates a perfect bandit country, where militant groups and criminal gangs can set up training camps, retreats and logistical infrastructure, I can´t help you.
What do you think is happening in Somalia or Yemen? Or in the tribal territories of Pakistan?
Once the fundamentalists in Europe lose their backing, they´ll go as well.

Jan


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis.

Say what? And stupid me was thinking Marseille was full of Marseillais.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

And on what grounds? Are they going to take over control in France?



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 41):
Are they going to take over control in France?

I hope not.

Algeria authorises France to use airspace for Mali raids

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...92a73fc2ff2f50a8891280af493a87.271

France's foreign minister says US is providing communications and transport help for international military intervention in Mali - @AP

A spokesman for the French UN Mission says the Security Council will meet Monday at France's request to discuss Mali - @AP

[Edited 2013-01-13 14:03:37]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2672 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.


  
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN. Any mess France gets into is their responsibility alone. Besides, with Malian and other African troops, I don't think the US would go as far as place soldiers on the ground unless it's to safeguard its consular staff.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN.

The UN didn't need to authorize anything, Mali called us for help.

mercure1 : I don't like the "Françafrique" either but if it's that or Chinafrique or Alqaidafrique the choice is easy.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
This country lives on stereotypes. Of course this is not limited to US but it is stronger here than just about any other place I have been.

Isn't that in itself a "stereotype"?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does,

Neither does the US, correct me if I'm wrong but they are running trillion dollar debts, billions dollar deficits and massive spending cuts are on the way, especially in the military so.......
Now if we are saying that the US has an oversized military to allow them to do more than protection of their assets in the homeland, we have a differtnt story.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
The number of French lives lost in WWII is higher than the number of dead Americans.

Yes, and the USA after the end of WWI was one of the few voices advsing against the draconian measures inflicted on the Germans which ultimately led to WWII, cause and effect.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN. Any mess France gets into is their responsibility alone.

Interesting that the UN has not called a General Assembly meeting to discuss the participation of foreign troops, but that is for another thread.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.


Thanks for insulting our sacrifice,

Signed

Every British soldier, dead and alive.

Maybe worth mentioning, flymia, that Britain and the Commonwealth were the only people who fought the WW2 Nazis, and later the Japanese, from Day One in 1939 right through to 1945.

And they're 'showing willing' again:-

"Ministry of Defence sources said the C-17 flew from RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire on Sunday and was on Sunday night being loaded with military equipment at a French base.

"It was due to take off for Mali later on Monday morning.

"RAF drones and spy planes have also been put on standby, sources told The Times, who also suggested that a small team of British military instructors would be sent to Mali's capital, Bamako, later this month.

"Mark Simmonds, a Foreign Office minister, hinted that British troops would eventually be sent to Mali to train an army capable of holding off al-Qaeda.

“We may well, through a European Union mechanism, provide training and support for the Malian army to give them strength to bring back the integrity of the Malian country in totality,” he said."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rench-effort-against-al-Qaeda.html



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5910 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

The RDAF will be dispatching one of its Hercs to Mali as well.

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3546 times:

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 48):
The RDAF will be dispatching one of its Hercs to Mali as well.

The Danes always step up.

Some of the criticism of Hollande seems to me, unfair.
This is a mission with risks, it's likely that French boots on the ground, beyond special forces and similar, will have to fight and in some numbers.
The Mali Army needs a lot of work and the Islamists hold a large chuck of territory.
Every French loss, any military problems, retaliation - perhaps in France itself - will fall on him.
I hold no flag for him, don't even know a huge amount about this President, however he won't have gone, as his critics and if the polls are right a lot of French people, from an indecisive, over cautious, even rather bumbling figure into someone authorising this risky mission overnight.

Easy to carp from the sidelines, consider however the options he faced.
The Islamists were massing, they could have taken the capital, the areas under their rule are under a violent theocratic oppression, Mali was desperately asking for international help and the Malian army was weak with any larger local African intervention would be too little, too late and frankly probably not up to the job.
Several thousand French nationals at risk, Mali has close ties to France.

Left unchecked these Islamists would have spread, threatened others including beyond the region.
The result of letting the Taliban gain a hold in Afghanistan in the 1990's is seared into the minds of most Western leaders of this generation.

One thing Hollande may have done wrong however, is to perhaps raise expectations about the length and scope of the French military involvement.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3501 times:

Apparently fighting side by side with the French gave the Malian troops a new vigor and they were quite good. Their soviet gunships also helped.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Is it realistic to expect that this conflict will resolve in the short (or medium) term? Mali is vast, the borders are nearly unprotected. What is the chance it will be an Afghanistan like conflict, with the terrorists/Islamists retreating when under pressure and advancing again once it is no longer feasible for French troops to be deployed there?

(Disclaimer: this is a genuine question, I do not have enough information yet to form an opinion on this conflict)


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3457 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 49):
Quoting CPH-R (Reply 48):
The RDAF will be dispatching one of its Hercs to Mali as well.

The Danes always step up.

And our minister of foreign affairs weasels out, as usual.  

Jan


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.

Many Americans seem to get a very onesided American view of reality from American media. On largescale operations over many years, the USA is rarely the only one stepping up. Norway stepped up in Kosovo and Afghanistan. We're in our 12th year in Afghansitan now. In Libya we were one of the countries that was most active. Dropped around 600 bombs .... Just like we were active in world war 2 and the cold war. Just like the british, the french, the danes etc.


User currently onlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29694 posts, RR: 59
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Reportedly the US is providing intellegence (can your say drones?) to the French forces along with other undisclosed support.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 51):
What is the chance it will be an Afghanistan like conflict, with the terrorists/Islamists retreating when under pressure and advancing again once it is no longer feasible for French troops to be deployed there?

Simply answer, a very high chance.
The big issue usually is how much regional control they are willing to settle for and how much looking the other way the other authorities are willing to do.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

It seems though that due to the geographical conditions in the region (open desert, not high mountains with many gorges, valleys and other hiding places) it is much more difficult for them to hide. They woul also need a supply of water and waterholes are limited in this region. Their camps should be easily visible from the air.
I think it depends if the Malian government can get an agreement with the more secular Tuareg rebels, who´se rebellion got hijacked by the Islamists.

Jan

Addition:
It seems that the Tuareg rebels are equally fed up with the invasion of foreign Wahabi and Salafist Jihadis and are offering to join the government´s fight to kick them out:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/tua...nch-in-mali-1.1451434#.UPSHvGPzgjF
AFAIK, most of the Tuareg belong to more moderate branches of Islam, e.g. are Sufis, and are not impressed with the puritan fundamentalism of AQIM. It also seems that the local population is less than impressed with the AQIM rebels destroying their cultural heritage.

Jan

[Edited 2013-01-14 14:40:36]

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
The size and scope of the Islam/China Africa take over is staggering, this is a race for not only vast resources that are untapped but some of the best farm land in the world that is not yet developed.

Unfortunately the terrorists are more than willing to fight wars for 100 years if necessary. The US isn't willing to do that, nor are a lot of other countries.

That leads us to a situation of where we are willing to be in 25, 50 and 100 years.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Ironically, this war is being fueled by arms whisked away from Libya after we killed him. Just another aftereffect from that blunder.

User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
France and USA only true reason for being in Mali...

When you wake up have a look at the map of Western Africa and especially Mali's neighbours.
A success of the "Malian" insurgents would undoubtedly be the beginning of total chaos in the region and probably the end for many a regime in place around.
With the entire Northern African coast already providing a bleak and uncertain perspective, the West of the continent cannot follow.
France and Hollande will do whatever it takes to leave these guys only a small space in the desert and a few camels.

Do not be surprised if many European countries do provide a helping hand, UN resolution or not, and without a view on a $ in return.


Quoting L-188 (Reply 54):
Reportedly the US is providing intellegence

Near real time satellite imagery is the first key to success. Who has the most and the best photographs in space ?


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 59):
Near real time satellite imagery is the first key to success. Who has the most and the best photographs in space ?

Hard to figure out who would put / move a sat into geo orbit with sufficient coverage over Mali, its not like satellites are a dime a dozen with unlimited fuel to be moved around for every insurgency, much cheaper to use a drone.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Well France has had interests in the region forever and we have good satellite capabilities (since the Gulf War when the US fed us false intel).

Where did the other thread about who the West supports in Mali go ? I too said there that there was several reasons why we were intervening and that I doubted "return on investment" was the first one.

Here an interesting article on what the US did in the region and particularly Mali and how it failed, since the US was training...Tuaregs : http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/wo...e-islamist-held-mali.html?hp&_r=1&



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 58):
Ironically, this war is being fueled by arms whisked away from Libya after we killed him. Just another aftereffect from that blunder.

But these guys were fighting FOR Qaddafi, he had a disparate mercenary force in place well before early 2011.
Indeed, he's used them before and outside of Libya.
To incite rebellions in other countries in the region, why do you think much of the rest of the Arab world and other countries in North Africa were so pleased to see him go?
In the case of Qatar, provided much more than moral/political support too.

Had Qaddafi prevailed in 2011, he would have, as he did during the uprising, claim it was all the doing of the West, the initial rebellion.
Which was inflamed not just by his decades of misrule but also what was happening in Egypt and Tunisia, then Syria.
If his regime had survived it's likely he would have again stepped up his agitation in the region, using, as before, the same people the French are fighting now.
As I mentioned in my first post, the French ran him and his army, his mercenaries, out of Chad in the 1980's.

The Arab Spring is a reality and began with no influence from the West. Or more importantly, Al Qaeda.
The West has a choice, either set it's face against this big change that is happening whether we like it or not, thus alienating the eventual victors for certain.
Or go with it, cautious yes, mindful of hostile elements that may be a part of the forces ranged against these regimes but get as much influence along the way as possible.
Because it's happening anyway.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

According to this article:
Mali Islamists 60KM from capital! French 'assault' fails

Mali: French invaders flee. Mujahideen liberate Koulikoro and are 60 km from the capital Bamako

Against the background of false reports by Western media about “successful containment of Mujahideen in central Mali”, the Mujahideen of the Islamic Coalition are exploiting success.
The Press Office of Ansar al-Din reports that the Mujahideen reached on January 15, 2013, the town of Koulikoro – one of the largest in southern Mali (see map). Koulikoro is located only 59 km from the capital Bamako.

read more:
http://alhittin.com/2013/01/16/mali-...are-60-km-from-the-capital-bamako/

Invading French crusaders...

 

There is a media black out on this.

The French don´´t seem to have any clues what the operational objectives of the enemy really are.

  

This just came up on CNN

France, Germany and Italy: Terrorists in Mali must go
(CNN) -- Europe's largest powers appear to coalescing for a common cause: getting rid of al Qaeda-linked militants in the West African nation of Mali.
Islamist rebels, considered well-armed and trained, are fighting to overthrow Mali's government.

read more:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/16/world/mali-unrest/index.html

  

Ansar Dine
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ansar Dine (Arabic: أنصار الدين‎ ʾAnṣār ad-Dīn, also transliterated Ançar Deen[2]) means "helpers of the (Islamic) religion" or "defenders of the faith" in Arabic. Ansar Dine remains the title of two separate Islamic organizations. The first, is an Islamist group led by Iyad Ag Ghaly, one of the most prominent leaders of the Tuareg rebellion in the 1990s. He is suspected to have ties with Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb as well as other splinter Islamist groups which is led by his cousin Hamada Ag Hama. Ansar Dine wants the imposition of strict Sharia law across Mali.[3][4] The group's first action was in March 2012.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_Dine

A war always has two sides. If you only report the story of one side you are likely failing to show your audience a balanced story of what is actually going on.

[Edited 2013-01-16 13:25:06]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Well "French invaders" gives the tone, since most of these Islamists really are invaders. The French army isn't fleeing, it's advancing. It's entirely possible that groups of Islamists are near Koulikoro, I doubt it's "liberated" however since it's a Malian army military camp. I'm sure the armies (French, Malian, and others involved) would be quite happy to see them advance on Bamako, at least they'd be easier to spot. On the contrary as soon as fighting started they exited many towns, in what can only be described as fleeing.

Guerrilla warfare is very effective, but it's difficult to associate it with notions of "honor". But when you pillage, rape and kill your way through a country, I guess honor isn't much of a concern.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 62):
But these guys were fighting FOR Qaddafi, he had a disparate mercenary force in place well before early 2011.

Matters not, with the fall of Qadadafi came the immediate disappearance of his weapons which have now been sold to the Islamists. Who by the way, are flush with hostage ransom money secretly paid European governments. Ye are sowing what ye reap.

Quoting GDB (Reply 62):
Had Qaddafi prevailed in 2011, he would have, as he did during the uprising, claim it was all the doing of the West, the initial rebellion.

Nonsense. Everybody knows the initial rebellion was just a flair up from his war with Islamists that had been going on for many years. Same group, same people.

If Islamists have suddenly become strong in Mali, it is a direct result of the fiasco in Libya. Pick your poison but Qadaffi was contained no matter how you look at it and he was also suppressing our enemy. Just a complete blunder. The French can no longer point their forgetful finger in our direction when it comes to foreign policy blunders.

Personally, I don't give a damn as long as we don't get involved. We must simply focus on losing that foreign oil addiction. The French would be wise to do the same.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

I could add to the title that it's also a war without the EU, what are your thoughts about that ?

MEP Daniel Cohn-Bendit spoke my mind (good considering he got my vote) when he adressed Catherine Ashton and the European Parliament :

"I have a bizarre feeling," said Greens leader Daniel Cohn-Bendit. "Everyone says 'we' but only French troops are over there. People are promising nurses for the French as they go get themselves shot."



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2032 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 36):

That's actually a good thing. If the Islamists intend to fight conventionally, then they will be easier for Western forces to defeat. It looks like these Islamists have more experiance with conventional warfare, and, based on the fighting we've seen, it looks like AQ hasn't solidified their network of terrorist cells and gurilla warfare/terrorist training camps yet. This is the perfect time to take these guys out now, instead of waiting for the African Union to get it's act together.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Er, I think you need to look up on your history there. Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

It's a shame so few people know/understand this. Then again, GWB and the neo-cons had no understanding of Vietnam either.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
I also refer you to my post above and ask you consider this; France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does

France can still borrow money, let them have a go at it instead of the US.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
They have to work with the local forces - not disband them - they have to devise a clear exit strategy too.

Do tell!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 36):
"In addition to creating defenses, the fighters are amassing supplies, experts said. A local who was taken by Islamists into a cave in the region of Kidal described an enormous room, where several cars were parked. Along the walls, he counted up to 100 barrels of gasoline."

"Those weapons include the SA-7 and SA-2 surface-to-air missiles, according to Hamaha, which can shoot down aircrafts."

It is said there are many underground caves that the Islamists have used for generations for smuggling throughout the region, and indeed they were filled up after Qadaffi was toppled.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
What do you think is happening in Somalia or Yemen? Or in the tribal territories of Pakistan?
Once the fundamentalists in Europe lose their backing, they´ll go as well.

That's the whole problem, there's no end to it. The best solution is to work towards energy independence and let these regions sort things out. It's a shame for cultures like Mali, but it's really their problem to sort out.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 54):
Reportedly the US is providing intellegence (can your say drones?) to the French forces along with other undisclosed support.

It'd be interesting to know how effective these things are vs JSTARS. A lot of funds have gone into drones and I hope we're getting our money's worth.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 56):
It seems though that due to the geographical conditions in the region (open desert, not high mountains with many gorges, valleys and other hiding places) it is much more difficult for them to hide. They woul also need a supply of water and waterholes are limited in this region. Their camps should be easily visible from the air.

How is anything so visible in a region so vast? I'd guess you'd try to wait for night and then look for heat signatures, no? Hard to detect camels walking in the desert.

Quoting iakobos (Reply 59):
A success of the "Malian" insurgents would undoubtedly be the beginning of total chaos in the region and probably the end for many a regime in place around.

Ah, the old domino theory. I knew it'd raise it's ugly head soon enough. I think you should look at those areas and realize even though Islamists are there, they are far from a unified force, just like the Viets really didn't care for the Lao or Cambodians or Chinese much either, and the Kurds and Shia and Suni don't like each other much, nor do the Hashemites and the Palestinians, etc.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2314 posts, RR: 21
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 53):
Many Americans seem to get a very onesided American view of reality from American media. On largescale operations over many years, the USA is rarely the only one stepping up. Norway stepped up in Kosovo and Afghanistan. We're in our 12th year in Afghansitan now. In Libya we were one of the countries that was most active. Dropped around 600 bombs .... Just like we were active in world war 2 and the cold war. Just like the british, the french, the danes etc.

I agree. flymia's comment was very disrespectful towards all the soldiers doing their job every day now in Afghanistan and before that, also in Iraq, Kosovo and so on.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 69):
I agree. flymia's comment was very disrespectful towards all the soldiers doing their job every day now in Afghanistan and before that, also in Iraq, Kosovo and so on.

Good thing we are all friends then, no?

Now, back to Mali...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

But it's true that Burkina Faso, Mauritania, Niger, have quite fragile governments.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 38):
I hope Barry and Co. don't stick their noses into this nonsense like they did Libya.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 54):
Reportedly the US is providing intellegence (can your say drones?) to the French forces along with other undisclosed support.

France is upping their force strength in Mali. Paratroopers, helicopters and two mechanized brigades based in France are being deployed to Mali to fight stronger-than-expected rebel forces. Leclerc heavy tanks and units equipped with the Caesar, an ultra-modern, truck-mounted 155-millimeter artillery piece are also being deployed, along with the Tiger assault helicopter. The United States military is providing intelligence (aka drone recon), transportation, and communication assistance to the French forces.

Source: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/mali-heavy-firepower/

Africa has become a battleground where the US and European allies are positioning themselves for easy access to the continent’s strategic oil and mineral resources against China, which has been striking commercial mineral and fossil fuel deals with governments across Africa for decades. A shadow war is taking place with the United States supporting friendly African governments from their own internal opposition, under the guise of squashing any further Al Qaeda development, according to many respected military analysts - to ensure US/NATO access to mineral, oil, and gas rights.

The last few years have seen significant new oil and natural gas discoveries reported across East Africa, including the Horn of Africa. Nations such as Tanzania, Mozambique, Uganda and the Democratic Republic of Congo are all current exploring potentially huge oil and/or natural gas reserves. Mail itself also has potentially large fossil fuel reserves in the Taoudeni Basin region. There is always an economic benefit tied to military action in Africa....

[Edited 2013-01-23 11:23:44]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Not so off topic as this is all part of the same scheme.

BREAKING
France confirms "ongoing operation" at gas facility (French Govt source)

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 72):
France is upping their force strength in Mali. Paratroopers, helicopters and two mechanized brigades based in France are being deployed to Mali to fight stronger-than-expected rebel forces. Leclerc heavy tanks and units equipped with the Caesar, an ultra-modern, truck-mounted 155-millimeter artillery piece are also being deployed, along with the Tiger assault helicopter.

My one most important question:
Who is paying for all this? Is all this (unnecessary) military spending taken off French tax payers money?

How much does Mali contribute financially to this war spending? France should really send the bill to Mali.
How many Malians residing in France have gone back to Mali to fight for their country?

When will our bankrupted countries stop spending money on these foreign wars at a time when there are so many problems within our own borders with older people and pensioners with little money that don't even have enough to keep their houses warm in this freezing cold weather. Not talking about the hundreds of homeless left without any shelter they are left sleeping on the streets and under the bridges in these cold Winter nights in all of our large cities.

Our primary duty is to mind our own business at home.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 72):
Africa has become a battleground where the US and European allies are positioning themselves for easy access to the continent’s strategic oil and mineral resources against China, which has been striking commercial mineral and fossil fuel deals with governments across Africa for decades. A shadow war is taking place with the United States supporting friendly African governments from their own internal opposition, under the guise of squashing any further Al Qaeda development, according to many respected military analysts - to ensure US/NATO access to mineral, oil, and gas rights.

That's why I said above we're best off seeking energy independence, so we don't need such access. This means alternative energies as well as US-based oil/coal/gas/nuclear.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 72):
The last few years have seen significant new oil and natural gas discoveries reported across East Africa, including the Horn of Africa. Nations such as Tanzania, Mozambique, Uganda and the Democratic Republic of Congo are all current exploring potentially huge oil and/or natural gas reserves. Mail itself also has potentially large fossil fuel reserves in the Taoudeni Basin region. There is always an economic benefit tied to military action in Africa....

I doubt it, if we include the cost of the strife, human suffering and military budgets.

If the Chinese want to partner with militants to try to have access to natural resources good luck to them, because they will need it. They are just as likely to find their citizens/experts held hostage as are western governments.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
My one most important question:
Who is paying for all this? Is all this (unnecessary) military spending taken off French tax payers money?

Of course the French taxpayers, because their (ironically, socialist) government thinks it's the right thing for France to do.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2429 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):
Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
I also refer you to my post above and ask you consider this; France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does

France can still borrow money, let them have a go at it instead of the US.

They do. They are 'having a go at it'. If by that you mean carrying out the sort of operations militarily that it seems some in the US think they only do, well they've been doing that too, for a long time.
What they don't tend to do is get into a very large operation, dubious in international law, dangerous for the region involved, rather like that well planned invasion of Iraq with all the meticulous consideration given to the aftermath that we well remember.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):
Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
They have to work with the local forces - not disband them - they have to devise a clear exit strategy too.

Do tell!

Why me, the French President has outlined this plenty?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 75):
What they don't tend to do is get into a very large operation, dubious in international law, dangerous for the region involved, rather like that well planned invasion of Iraq with all the meticulous consideration given to the aftermath that we well remember.

Seems then the French did learn from their stay in Vietnam. Too bad GWB was too busy in the Texas ANG blowing off assignments to get over there and see for himself.

Quoting GDB (Reply 75):
Why me, the French President has outlined this plenty?

Google of https://www.google.com/search?q=french+mali+exit+strategy brings up lots of skepticism and not much support around that exit strategy. It's not quite as bad as the neocon's "they will welcome us as liberators" plan, but not much better.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

The exit strategy is a moving target because of the numerous problems Mali has : no government to speak about, no army to speak about, and hostility between the blacks and the tuaregs (there are reports of summary executions, now). The idea is to tackle all those at once, while killing as many jihadists as possible.

The skepticism mainly comes from the UMP party of former president Sarkozy, who clearly had no exit strategy for Libya...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
little money that don't even have enough to keep their houses warm in this freezing cold weather. Not talking about the hundreds of homeless left without any shelter

Well their houses will be difficult to warm without uranium.

As for the homeless most chose to stay outside, they like it that way (or are mentally ill but don't admit it).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 76):
Google of https://www.google.com/search?q=french+mali+exit+strategy brings up lots of skepticism and not much support around that exit strategy. It's not quite as bad as the neocon's "they will welcome us as liberators" plan, but not much better.

Hollande has said the task is to 'destroy' (his word) the terrorists, maybe some would be captured too he reckoned, stabilising the situation, allowing time and space for Malian and the other African nations who have committed troops, to take over.
With the unsaid caveat that in regards to Africa, the French are already there militarily. In fact, they never really went away.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11919 posts, RR: 25
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2317 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 77):
The exit strategy is a moving target because of the numerous problems Mali has : no government to speak about, no army to speak about, and hostility between the blacks and the tuaregs (there are reports of summary executions, now). The idea is to tackle all those at once, while killing as many jihadists as possible.

It's been a decade+ that we've been waiting for a local government to rule Afghanistan.

The big problem is the one mentioned above: it's darned expensive in lives and money to "tackle" a lot of the problems, and some just aren't a matter of lives or money, and once one place is cleaned up there's the need to go on to the next. After Mali there will be Somalia, Yemen, Wazeristan(sp?), etc. All places with weak or failed governments, tribal/racial tensions, varying degrees of poverty, etc.

I'd add to the list poverty in general or the special case of a small number of people holding a lot of the wealth.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 77):
The skepticism mainly comes from the UMP party of former president Sarkozy, who clearly had no exit strategy for Libya...

I think the skepticism is a lot more wide spread than that.

Quoting GDB (Reply 78):
Hollande has said the task is to 'destroy' (his word) the terrorists, maybe some would be captured too he reckoned, stabilising the situation, allowing time and space for Malian and the other African nations who have committed troops, to take over.

It's widely reported that the Malian army is, well, not as committed as many would like it to be.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 79):
The big problem is the one mentioned above: it's darned expensive in lives and money to "tackle" a lot of the problems,

France has borrowed 180 Billion Euros in 2012. The acted forecast for 2013 is that the State will borrow 200 Billion Euros. These amounts mean that France is bankrupt.

    Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2164 times:

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?

Er, I think you need to look up on your history there. Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

Cheers
Mats


  
Not many people realise that Ho Chi Minh asked France for autonomy and independence after WWII and was anti Communist (at least in terms of Chinese and Russian influence) but that France refused arrogantly so instead of being pro development and pro Western they turned to the likes of China to help them rid the country of French. Things then escalated dragging in the US and other countries. It could have all been avoided.



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7623 posts, RR: 23
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2029 times:
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The UK is now deploying 330 troops to the area, going far beyond the original support offered in the form of a couple of transport aircraft.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21240676

God spede to our soldiers.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 81):

Not many people realise that Ho Chi Minh asked France for autonomy and independence after WWII and was anti Communist (at least in terms of Chinese and Russian influence) but that France refused arrogantly so instead of being pro development and pro Western they turned to the likes of China to help them rid the country of French. Things then escalated dragging in the US and other countries. It could have all been avoided.

During WW2 Ho Chi Minh was cooperating closely with the American OSS, the precedesor of the CIA, in the fight against the Japanese invaders. He first and foremost was a Vietnamese nationalist, who wanted independence for his country (though with a leftwing streak, which was easy to understand if one knows how the French plantation owners there treated the locals during the colonial period). The French in Vietnam were almost exclusively supporters of the fascist puppet Vichy regime of Mashall Petain.
Vietnam was actually liberated by both the Vietminh and British troops, but the later had to hand over to French troops when the Cold war started and it was decided that France, which wanted her colonies back, was more important as a future NATO member in Europe than the support of the Vietnamese in Asia.

Jan


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

The last city of northern Mali still held by jihadists, Kidal, has been liberated by the French. Or rather the jihadists have fled under aerial strikes, I guess their god wasn't worth it after all.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

I saw on the news yesterday a Military official from Mali holding a notebook that they found in a bomb making site that the Jahidists has fled from. In the notebook contained bank transfer statements and money transfer papers from a bank in Saudi Arabia.


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 84):
Or rather the jihadists have fled under aerial strikes..

There's the problem. The French arrive and the jihadists disappear. But the moment the French leave they reappear and you're back to square one.


User currently offlinerlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1064 posts, RR: 1
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 86):
There's the problem. The French arrive and the jihadists disappear. But the moment the French leave they reappear and you're back to square one.

That is why I think forces should have landed in the north and worked thier way to meet forces in the south to cut off the escape route.

[Edited 2013-01-30 16:16:03]


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlinePowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 556 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1933 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 85):
a bank in Saudi Arabia.

Ah yes, the source of funding for all terrorist organizations in the world. How much longer 'till their oil runs dry?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 87):
That is why I think forces should have landed in the north and worked thier way to meet forces in the south to cut off the escape route.

That's the sort of military dilemma that often arises in situations of this sort, rlwynn. The French don't actually have many ground troops there - I believe that the initial force only amounted to about 2,500 - and the whole operation appears to depend on them 'stiffening' the Malian army rather than doing all the fighting themselves. Going 'too far, too fast' might well have resulted in the French-led forces being surrounded and cut off. In addition, looking at this map of the situation a few days ago, now that they've got past Timbuktu, they're pretty well into the Sahara proper, there appear to be very few sources of water.

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...-bewildering-mali-conflict/267257/

So although, as you say, 'starting from the north' might have looked like an attractive option at first, my guess is that it was (rightly) judged to be far too risky.

[Edited 2013-01-30 17:20:09]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6100 posts, RR: 9
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 87):
That is why I think forces should have landed in the north and worked thier way to meet forces in the south to cut off the escape route.

According to some posts on the military forum paratroopers were dropped north of town for exactly that reason.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
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