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Britain And The EU - What Does The Future Hold?  
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12594 posts, RR: 34
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5331 times:

The last few months have seen the "jungle drums" beat louder on the whole issue of Britain's place in the EU. There is a lot of public antipathy towards the EU in the UK, with a significant (if not necessarily a vast) majority seeing the EU as interfering and meddling. Judgements of the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) are regularly seized upon by the right wing press as evidence of this - for example the ruling in favour of giving prisoners voting rights (supported by the court, but strongly opposed by public opinion and the govt itself).

The PM, David Cameron, is due to give a speech in Amsterdam in the near future, which is expected to spell out the government's position (although is more likely to see more prevarication and a very woolly, obfuscating approach, such as that seen with LHR). The likelihood is that there growing demand for an "in or out" referendum will be denied - for now; the govt wants to renegotiate Britain's position and repatriate powers and have a referendum on that basis.

The big issue is that although Britain had a vote on joining the EU in 1972, it has not had one since (while Ireland, due to its constitution, has voted on every new treaty, sometimes twice - when we didn't provide the right answer first time out!); the result is that the EU has changed significantly since then, so opponents of the EU see that what it has become is a lot different to what they were originally asked to vote on; successive PMs have denied a vote, but now - with the aforementioned jungle drums beating a lot louder, it remains to be seen what will happen.

What do our UK members think? Would you like a vote? If you were PM, would you grant a referendum? How do you see things panning out?

136 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Well, I don't pretend to know a bunch about EU politics, but I try. Despite the troubles the UK has with the EU, I'm sure they still benefit greatly from a lot from the EU. And the EU undoubtedly benefits from having the UK in.

That being said, the direction the EU is going and the direction the UK is going seems to be different, and there is no problem in that. I see them get demonized for that, which is unfair IMO because every culture has different needs. Maybe the UK won't be the most involved player, but barring some new EU 'law' that forces full participation or no membership, I see the UK associating with the EU in many regards, but doing their own thing on others.

Then again, I could be completely clueless on all this...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5313 times:

If they want, if there is a majority in the UK, let them leave.

But when they want to come back, because they realize, that leaving the EU will destroy the rest of their economy and political influence in the world, they shouldn't receive the special benefits again, which no other EU member has today, other than the UK.  

And beside of their special benefits (reduced membership contributions et.al.) there are the following general benefits of a membership they enjoy:

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296
http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=17942

[Edited 2013-01-15 13:10:10]

[Edited 2013-01-15 13:15:11]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

Well I don't know what will happen as frankly I don't understand the British mind (and am not living there, surrounded by media funded by one Australian guy), but attempts to "get a better deal" from Cameron will not go anywhere, that's for sure.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5289 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Judgements of the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) are regularly seized upon by the right wing press as evidence of this - for example the ruling in favour of giving prisoners voting rights (supported by the court, but strongly opposed by public opinion and the govt itself).

The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the European Union. It follows the European Convention on Human Rights, and was established by the Council of Europe, which nowadays consists of 47 member states, compared to the EU's 27. The Council of Europe does, however, utilize the EU flag and anthem, but is an entirely separate organization.

The European Convention on Human Rights is in a way superior to the laws of a member state and convention signatory. An individual can appeal to the ECHR if one has exhausted all national avenues of appeal, and feels that one's rights, as laid down in the convention, have been violated by the state.

The Court determines if the articles of the Convention are being followed, articles that the member states/signatories (and by extension, their respective governments and the people) have themselves already agreed to.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5287 times:

As soon as economic benefits do not outweigh the negatives, Britain should leave. I would advice them to do as Switzerland: apply for Schengen membership, but don't bother with the EU. At this moment, I simply do not see any benefits (for Britain, the Netherlands or Greece alike). Many of EU rules are fiddling with national rules and often cost money due to unnecessary demands. To give a small example: a recently opened railway stretch in the Netherlands features a fully functional ERMTS safety system, as well as our national safety system. We don't use ERMTS and on that stretch we will not, if ever, use it for at least another 10-15 years. Still, EU decided we should install it nonetheless. This is just a small example of the idiocy that is the bureaucracy of Brussels, with probably a lot of business interest involved as well.

I simply don't see how economic benefits (many of which will not disappear without EU membership) outweigh the non-transparency and bureaucracy of a non-elected government (only a parliament without actual influence is elected).


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5180 times:

As a long time resident (and business owner) of Portugal you'd think I'd be pro-EU, but I vote OUT in a UK referendum any day of the week.

What my parents voted to join was a free trade area, the European Economic Community. There were 6 countries in it at the time. With Britain, Ireland and Denmark joining in 1973 that made 9. They didn't vote to have EU law take supremacy over English law, they didn't vote for a myriad of directives and rules that leaves no stone unturned in some vain attempt to harmonise everything. In short, they, unlike the Germans for example, were kept well in the dark as to what was on the horizon.

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 5):
Still, EU decided we should install it nonetheless. This is just a small example of the idiocy that is the bureaucracy of Brussels, with probably a lot of business interest involved as well.

Big business is pro-EU, to small businesses like mine it is generally more costly and bureaucratic. Last year for example we binned perfectly good SAÍDA (EXIT) and other safety signs as they were not EU approved pictorials, and replaced them with EU approved ones.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
reduced membership contributions et.al

Due to the Common Agricultural Policy. £50million a day is our current rate.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
that leaving the EU will destroy the rest of their economy and political influence in the world

Actually, I'd bet the exact opposite.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
there are the following general benefits of a membership they enjoy:

My favourite benefit is yellow ambulances. Before the EU decided ambulances had to be yellow, I used to often confuse white vehicles with red stripes, blue lights and loud sirens as ice cream vans. Now wherever I go in the EU, I can always spot an ambulance. It's been such a relief.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5176 times:

I do think that the UK wouldnt be better off if they leave the EU. I recently saw a TV program about the pro´s and con´s and there was quite a clear verdict.

User currently offlineCaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 2):
they realize, that leaving the EU will destroy the rest of their economy

Rubbish, frankly.

The British economy has for a long time been going digital, and towards a service based economy. Leaving the EU will probably expedite the adoption of the revenue streams to their full value.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
My favourite benefit is yellow ambulances. Before the EU decided ambulances had to be yellow, I used to often confuse white vehicles with red stripes, blue lights and loud sirens as ice cream vans. Now wherever I go in the EU, I can always spot an ambulance. It's been such a relief.

  

Don't forget that we now have to disrupt everyone on the Internet by placing alerts on our websites telling them stuff about cookies that no one needs to know, wants to know or even understands by large.

I'm so thankful that our contributions meant most websites I visit, I now have to confirm what was already tacitly agreed before.

It really was a great use of money. Thank goodness there was nothing else the money could have been used on.

...oh, wait!


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27312 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

The UK will not leave but there may be some renegotiations on the powers that are brought back home.

User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5151 times:

I'm no longer young - so I can claim to have been 'in at the start' of the European Union thing. What's more, as an economist and a chartered surveyor, my job was mainly organising and building things - particularly factories.

The original 'European Common Market' worked fine, in my view. Useful trade increased Europe-wide, I helped set up Dutch and German factories in Britain and British and American ones all over Europe. Which increased prosperity and cooperation all round, and did no harm at all to anyone.

But then came the Euro. That, to my mind, was the 'step too far.' A free trade area was fine, and worked well; but, given the enormous gap between the industrial efficiency of places like Germany, compared with that of places like Greece, the eventual outcome could be predicted as soon as the 'common currency' process began. In the words of the old song, "The rich get rich and the poor get poorer......."

Later on, family considerations plus a good job offer caused me to move to Australia; and I've never regretted the move. But I've always retained fond memories of the good people I met, from all over Europe, in the early 'Common Market' days, and the things we achieved through friendly and professional co-operation.

I try to keep my posts short - so I'll only say one more thing. In my opinion, the basic 'wrong turning' that the EU took was the introduction of the Euro. Thanks to the economic strength of several leading European countries, particularly Germany, it rapidly became one of the 'hardest' currencies in the world. And a 'hard currency' is the last thing that under-developed countries like Greece and Portugal can live with..........

So, if I was still advising European organisations on 'the next step' in terms of European cooperation, my recommendation would be, "There's no future in a currency union unless you also have a 100 per cent political union. The latter just isn't going to happen. So take steps to phase out the Euro and encourage all but the very strongest countries in economic terms to re-adopt their own currencies, which they can devalue or revalue as needed to ensure that their economies do not collapse."

[Edited 2013-01-16 06:04:34]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinesebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3682 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5109 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
My favourite benefit is yellow ambulances. Before the EU decided ambulances had to be yellow, I used to often confuse white vehicles with red stripes, blue lights and loud sirens as ice cream vans. Now wherever I go in the EU, I can always spot an ambulance. It's been such a relief.

Ambulances are still white in France (red when it's the fire brigade's rescue vehicles).


User currently offlinesabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

My bet: A whole lot of talk on 'getting a better deal from Europe' is going to end nowhere as Germany has already made it clear there are not going to be accepting any special cases any longer, after which Cameron will find himself cornered and with only one escape: a referendum.
Given the British media are completely out of their mind on Europe, that will mean Cameron will have to come to Brussels to discuss the UK exit and future access to the common market, and the conditions for that are already set: full acceptation of all EU legislation, without any more representation in it, simple as that.
Great outcome isn't it?
Out are the whiners and they'll have to do as decided anyway, or they shoot themselves in the foot.
Lets get the referendum and vote like Rupert wants you to, guys!

[Edited 2013-01-16 09:02:40]

User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

Frankly, in Britain there is a lot of hysteria about the EU in general, which is strongly fueled by the right-wing press. A lot of people with anti-EU views will simply not accept that Britain does gain something from EU membership, even to the slightest extent. They only see the headlines in the Daily Mail or the Daily Express, which have undertones of trying to blame the EU for just about all the ills in society.

With the Euro crisis, these opinions have become increasingly widespread. The BBC is frequently accused of being biased to the left because it doesn't dedicate time to criticisms of the EU.

I'm more neutral to the issue, there are certainly advantages and disadvantages, but for the now I see the advantages outweighing the drawbacks

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 12):
and the conditions for that are already set: full acceptation of all EU legislation, without any more representation in it, simple as that.
Great outcome isn't it?

Well, quite. This is what so many don't consider.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5065 times:

The problem is that an awful lot, in fact I would say 90% or so, of the British public's animosity towards the EU has arisen from the fact that we got absolutely hammered with immigration from the new accession states when the Union virtually doubled in size overnight. I realise that most countries in western Europe had significant influx, but it is estimated that a million came to the UK from Poland alone, before we even start counting the others. We have seen large numbers of nasty cases of serious criminality trumpeted in the press (genuine cases of course, but hard to say whether there were proportionately more from the nationalities concerned than from the local population), whipping up yet more fervour against the already very obvious mass migration. And, of course very real criminal problems such as Romanian organised cash machine fraud. Official sources (Police) have publically stated that over 90% of cash machine crime in the UK is perpetrated by Romanians, and of course we are now on the cusp of Romania and Bulgaria achieving full rights to work and live freely in the UK without restriction (although in reality that is practically the case now, with a poorly-enforced registration requirement), which is being focused on in various media at the moment.

Of course, there has always been the issue of whether the UK is fully-committed to Europe or not, with the Euro not being adopted and the treaty of Schengen not signed, but in many other respects the UK has practically demonstrated full commitment. In reality, there is a reasonable amount of diversity in integration levels across Europe, with Ireland not in Schengen but in the Euro, and other countries like Sweden also keeping their currency like the UK did. Then, there is Norway which is not in the EU at all, but in the EEA and Schengen.

THE POINT of all this, is that I think the public are foolishly being guiled into believing that a vote to leave the EU would suddenly given them the right to boot out large groups that they consider to be undesirable for various reasons. In fact, it is not even remotely likely that the UK would leave the EU without at least remaining in the EEA, and therefore retaining all migratory issues relevant to the EEA regulations, or more extremely and even less likely having some kind of individually-negotiated agreement (a la Suisse) which would no doubt still retain free movement obligations.

The end result of this nonsensical idiocy that is playing out in the media is that the debate the public largely think they are having is in fact not the debate that actually exists. It's a farce, and I hope we stay in.

Having said that, I can't pretend that I myself don't think that EU expansion has all been too much and too quick. There is still far too much of an east-west disparity, though of course in some cases this is starting to even itself out. One or two at a time, with economies more rapidly brought up to speed would have been preferable I think, rather than spreading more gradual support far more thinly. This is what worked in the past.

Anyway, here's hoping that the public realise what they would actually be voting on and do the right thing.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5051 times:

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 12):
Brussels to discuss the UK exit and future access to the common market, and the conditions for that are already set: full acceptation of all EU legislation, without any more representation in it, simple as that.

Well, they would have more control about their laws not pertaining to the common market, but of course all those regulations they complain about (size of fruits and vegetables, etc.) would definitely stay.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 14):
I realize that most countries in western Europe had significant influx, but it is estimated that a million came to the UK from Poland alone

This is an intended consequence of the Bolkestein Directive, a directive that is in total "anglo-saxon freedom" spirit and which was pushed by the UK above all else, against many including France.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7658 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5040 times:

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
If you were PM, would you grant a referendum?

The key to the entire problem, there is some talk that he will grant the referendum in 5 or 6 years time or never. Granting the referendum should be a decision made by the legislature versus the individual and his political party.

If a referendum were held today or within the next 6 months my money would be on the UK population voting to stay in the EU, they have long since "sidelined" the Commonwealth so they already made that decision to be closer to Europe.

However, if the referendum if granted is put off for the next 3 or 4 years, the vote when it comes will not be about the EU and the UK's place in it but on the handling of the entire process by the political elite, which would be the tragedy.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5036 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):

This is an intended consequence of the Bolkestein Directive, a directive that is in total "anglo-saxon freedom" spirit and which was pushed by the UK above all else, against many including France.

Indeed it was pushed by the UK Labour government of the day, much against the greater wishes of the man on the street, and the party have now admitted that they got it all wrong on immigration.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineCaptCufflinks From UK - England, joined Dec 2012, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5028 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
so they already made that decision to be closer to Europe.

If by "they" you mean the British, then no - no decision was ever made about our status within Europe.

To my knowledge, the public have never been consulted about the whole thing - which might suggest why we're all so keen to finally have a referendum.


User currently offlineDNDTUF From France, joined Feb 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

As a Scot who has been living and working in France for the past 4 years, I sincerely hope that the UK doesn’t pull out of the EU. I think many of the consequences of such a separation have not been fully disclosed by the Eurosceptics. Day after day in “news” papers such as the Sun and Daily Mail and the Telegraph to a lesser extent, there are numerous negative stories about the EU and how it is destroying Britain. For people who only get their news from such sources, it’s no wonder that a large proportion of the population has been hoodwinked into believing that the EU is eroding British sovereignty. If you were to believe the Daily Mail, you’d think that Britain was awash with criminals who have come from mainland Europe to cause havoc and abuse the benefit system!

If Britain were to leave the EU, the country would still be bound by the same trade rules and directives but would have no influence whatsoever in the creation of such rules. I reckon that would be a bigger loss of sovereignty than if the UK remained part of the Union and had a say in the legislation. The renegotiation of trade links and export and import links would be a mammoth task to undertake and during the process, confidence in the British economy would take a battering! Being part of the EU is a major advantage for companies who decide to locate to the UK and we would be in danger of losing them if trading with Europe was made any harder.

I agree that certain aspects of the European Union should be scaled back across the continent as a whole. I think that it should primarily be a union based on the free circulation of goods, services and citizens. The idea of the Euro was made with good intentions, but I struggle to understand how anyone thought it possible to harmonise monetary policy amongst such a varied continent!

Basically, if Britain feels it needs a “better” deal from the EU, the only way to achieve this would be to remain at the heart of it and be a part of reforming it into an organisation ready for the future. I personally think that a lot of Euroscepticism in the UK comes from the same people who mourn the loss of the empire and who have a hard time accepting that Britannia no longer rules the waves! Who knows, maybe after 2014, if Scotland, which has always been significantly more pro-EU than its southern neighbour, breaks away from the UK, we might have a split in EU membership between the British Isles!

Just my 2 centimes!  
DNDTUF


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7658 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting CaptCufflinks (Reply 18):
If by "they" you mean the British, then no - no decision was ever made about our status within Europe.

I agree no vote was held, I am looking at it from the trade perspective, the reality is that trade with the Commonwealth is shades of what it used to be, trade with the EU on the other hand has continued to grow. Trade is one of the "talking ponits" on this issue, the other items such as "clawing back" powers is another story, obviously those were given over / away.

In the whole EU debate especially when there is talk about "taking back" authority granted to the EU I get lost when some state a referendum is needed, if the authority ceeded to the EU was not done via public vote, why is one needed now?
If a public vote which one are we talking about, the initial Common Market or the new EU?


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4971 times:

Quoting DNDTUF (Reply 19):
If you were to believe the Daily Mail, you’d think that Britain was awash with criminals who have come from mainland Europe to cause havoc and abuse the benefit system!

While it's true that the situation is not as serious as some papers would have you believe, there is little doubt that the migration we have undergone since EU enlargement happened has aided SOME serious criminality. There are undoubtedly very serious questions that need to be asked about why we should put up with extended families from some corners of Europe moving over to the UK with no money, no plan, no skills, children who need schooling immediately, elderly relatives who need free healthcare immediately, and in general have little or nothing to offer to our country except being a huge drain on resources of all kinds. It may sound harsh, but in too many cases this is what we face. This, in contrast to a young Polish couple, for example, who move over with skills to offer and a plan to work and generally be as productive as possible. In theory controls exist, but in reality border control is utterly powerless to turn back arrivals who clearly have nothing to offer but everything to take, as EEA regulations insist they be allowed three months from any arrival regardless of their means. This is not right, certainly not at a time when economies are suffering, and unfortunately these legitimate questions provide massive fodder to the red-top press to exploit in conjunction with the inherent prejudice towards Europe that they garner from a significant portion of their foolish readership.

I'm sorry if this is uncomfortable reading for some, but this is the reality caused from the overnight doubling in size of the EU - which was a very foolish move, in UK terms exploited purely for exceptionally short-term gain and at the serious expense of the country's wellbeing - evidenced not least by the fact that we now find ourselves where we do as a result; facing an ill-informed and very unfortunate prospect of a fallacious referendum on EU membership. This in a nutshell was the true hallmark of the Labour government who promoted this course of action - anything for immediate economic gain, regardless of the long-term potential for harm to both the UK and the essential institution of the European Union. For shame.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

Sigh no more, ladies, sigh nor more;
Men were deceivers ever;
One foot in sea and one on shore,
To one thing constant never;
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny;
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey nonny, nonny.

Sing no more ditties, sing no mo,
Or dumps so dull and heavy;
The fraud of men was ever so,
Since summer first was leavy.
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny,
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey, nonny, nonny.


- William Shakespeare



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 4870 times:

In the past I have been staunchly eurosceptic. However, my opinion nowadays is that it would in fact be costly to leave the EU and leave our self unprotected against the French (and Germans in some regards) who will continue to attempt to reduce our and our capitals influence, using their 'standing' in the EU, regardless. Also, I cannot see how leaving would be in any way positive for our economy.

However, I believe that a referendum at this point would see us packing our bags. In my opinion that is mainly due to the ECHR. The general public lump the hideous inadequacies and corruption of the ECHR with the EU and boy does the ECHR get some (rightly deserved) negative press in the UK.

So if anything, thumbs up to the EU and kick the ECHR and everything that comes with it to the curb.

My opinions of course.


User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3772 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4836 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 23):
However, I believe that a referendum at this point would see us packing our bags. In my opinion that is mainly due to the ECHR. The general public lump the hideous inadequacies and corruption of the ECHR with the EU and boy does the ECHR get some (rightly deserved) negative press in the UK.

Again, the EU and the ECHR are not the same thing! See post #4.

http://hub.coe.int/

http://europa.eu/index_en.htm

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
25 RussianJet : I believe it was clear he knew that from his post, but was rather trying to point out that unfortunately large swathes of the UK population do not ma
26 Post contains images sabenapilot : That's the funny thing: many people in the UK think a NO vote will somehow bring them back almost mythical sovereignty which will somehow solve all t
27 Post contains images U2380 : Absolutely. Exactly the point I was trying to make, I just made a mess of making it Thanks RussianJet and sorry for any confusion
28 Post contains links Aesma : I guess Cameron at least is fine with the ECHR : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...A-bullying-lawyers-I-God-side.html Once again I don't really u
29 RussianJet : Yeah, we're all wondering the same thing - and we live here.....
30 baguy : Hey RussianJet - don't forget.. it's ok! we're more than welcome to go and live in Poland if we want... Look.. I don't like the EU, and I'm by no mean
31 GDB : You've nailed the vast, huge, gaping hole in the Euro-phobia argument, since as much as any of them ever articulate any alternative ideas it's usuall
32 ME AVN FAN : - there is a lot of public antipathy towards the EU in most EU countries nowadays. The French philosophy of centralism has captured the EU, while Bri
33 GDB : Ironic that you mention de Valera, despite having him nothing in common with the British Tory Party of the last 20 or so years - in his day they were
34 blueflyer : Put Euro in front of almost anything and the Brits will hate it and blame "Brussels"... I can't imagine the UK applying for Schengen membership in my
35 Post contains links and images NAV20 : More or less comes to the same thing, in my view, blueflyer. Oddly enough, I first visited Germany in 1958, as a reserve soldier. In those days it wa
36 RussianJet : The problem is - after they leave, the second they come back, even the following day EEA Regs demand that they have three months again regardless.
37 Dano1977 : David Cameron keeps on plugging about going to Europe and renegotiating our position within europe. What would be on the table that needs changing?
38 yyz717 : The UK needs to stay in the EU, whatever its drawbacks. There has always been a fundamental difference betw how Brits and Germans want the EU to proce
39 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - NO, he clearly had nothing in common with the UK Tories ...... he would revolve in his grave if anybody said so - as I am not a UK citizen I cannot
40 GDB : Fine by me, but putting to one side his 'issues' with the British, his isolationist stance in general bedevilled Ireland for a long time beyond his t
41 par13del : Well, other than Thatcher negotiating the discount and the funds that the UK pumps in, the French and Germans seem pretty intent on running things th
42 KiwiRob : If Britain were to leave the EU, the country would occupy the same pointless (IMO) position as Norway complying with all the rules but with no influe
43 ME AVN FAN : THIS exactly is why I would see Britain to stay INSIDE the EU. Norway and Switzerland even when giving up EFTA anf joining the EU would not have much
44 Aesma : Why should there be an olive branch about the City, when the UK is not part of the eurozone ? Why isn't the UK public demanding more regulation of th
45 par13del : There should be none and there is none, so those who talk about the UK being able to influence the general trend of the EU away from the desires of F
46 Post contains links NAV20 : Interesting snippet from the British press:- "And we've got confirmation that David Cameron's speech on Europe will take place in London on Wednesday
47 ME AVN FAN : "desires of France and Germany" '? This is simply wrong. The desire of France and Germany are very different, but Germany since the days of Konrad Ad
48 RussianJet : Explain please, and using facts, not just relying on the euro and Schengen.
49 GDB : In some ways, Merkel should be quite close to Cameron, though the UK centre right party differs in many ways from that of a very different nation like
50 Aesma : Well Brussels sure is imposing austerity on Southern Europe, but not on the UK. Cameron is doing that fine by himself, so if he starts blaming the EU
51 ME AVN FAN : - I do not talk about the Euro and Schengen, but about the obvious fact that Britain under most British Prime Minsters except Teddy Heath and John Ma
52 Aesma : Well aside from some dreaming conservatives nobody thinks there will be legislative elections in France before next presidential election in 2017. And
53 U2380 : This is why Europe can/will never become a federal state, there is no way that this could be deemed acceptable to the rest of Europe. The cultural di
54 RussianJet : Really not sure how this obvservation translates to 'practically not participating'. The fact is that the UK has, while perhaps not taking the lead i
55 einsteinboricua : The main problem with the UK is that it looks like with every treaty Brussels takes over more sovereignty of each member state by committing them to l
56 ME AVN FAN : The United Kingdom is one of the big three inside the E.U. but in spite of having been encouraged to do so by Germany repeatedly never really assumed
57 RussianJet : Again, not leading does not equate to not participating. In what respect? Schengen, and.....oh.....that would be about it I guess.
58 Aesma : I don't see why the EU would enter a recession, especially considering it's already in one. As for the Euro, if it were to drop then it would certain
59 einsteinboricua : 1. It's in one due to the debt crisis, but what if the economies return to positive level by year's end? For a country to leave the EU might start a
60 sabenapilot : May I remind all that this topic is about the UK and the promissed referendum on giving up all influence over decisions that are going to affect the U
61 Post contains links oldeuropean : Nice statement by Martin Schulz about Camerons EU speech, at the end of this article: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...in-out-eu-referendum-a-87
62 par13del : This should be the reason why the rest of Europe should push the UK Prime Minister to have the referendum now versus using it as a carrot for voters
63 Aesma : A referendum in 2017, how can the UK public accept this ? I hope there will be outrage, this is bullshit of the highest quality. In France where we do
64 kaitak : I think that "kicking the can down the road" has been DC's method of dealing with a number of things, such as the LHR runway. There is a big "anti-Eu
65 Aesma : Well a referendum with all EU citizens having a vote would not have the same results as a UK only referendum. You could also do an English referendum
66 par13del : My take is that Cameron and those that think like him "believe" that the people will vote to leave, some might say it smacks of arrogance in thinking
67 oldeuropean : Leaving the EU could be another reason for the Scots to leave the UK. They've benefited very well from the EU so far.
68 baguy : Not exactly... neither England nor Scotland are EU member states in their own right - the UK is as a whole - so if the UK goes, the whole UK goes - S
69 OzGlobal : Exactly, the whole initiative is a transparent, disingenuous play to try to fend off his internal Tory anti-Euro nut jobs, appease those among the UK
70 KiwiRob : IS the Scottish EU referendum before or after the EU one?
71 oldeuropean : But Scotland can leave the UK and become an EU member. And I wouldn't be surprised if Wales would follow the example.[Edited 2013-01-23 12:40:31]
72 RussianJet : Accept it? I think most of the UK populace is resigned to the fact that almost nothing they do actually makes any difference to the politicians, so I
73 baguy : 2014 is the Scottish Independence one - but i think the quoted was referring to a split referendum within the UK. But not automatically - what I was
74 U2380 : It's easy to understand why, on a purely social level, there are so many europhobes in the UK. The frankly arrogant replies from a few people in this
75 GDB : It's not for us, it's for his party. Be aware that however strong feelings might be expressed in polls about the EU - usually from a very loaded ques
76 kaitak : As far as Scotland is concerned, I'm sure Alex Salmond would take great joy in adding to Cameron's problems; giving a referendum on EU membership weak
77 Aesma : Sure. And Cameron is only elected by the UK, but he seems to be talking about all EU citizens. Many citizens disagree with the EU, but each has its o
78 aloges : I've stayed out of this for good reason, but this I do have to ask: Is there no way that such "arrogance" could simply be a reaction to the non-stop
79 Aesma : Indeed, and Brussels gave a very diplomatic answer (so diplomatic it's funny, praising Cameron !), but from what I hear some are saying "So Long, and
80 Post contains links NAV20 : That seems very much 'over the top,' aloges? If you scroll down to 'EU Budget' on here, you'll find that the UK makes the second largest net annual f
81 aloges : What's over the top is the way the EU is portrayed as a front for a Franco-German powergrab, a bottomless pit with no tangible benefits and, in short
82 RussianJet : I agree with an awful lot of what you say, but please don't judge us by these dreadful rags! I read them sometimes purely to be appalled and laugh at
83 Post contains images aloges : Don't fear that I might. The Axel Springer company is a sort of German equivalent, albeit less anti-EU. At the end of the day, we should definitely b
84 Post contains links NAV20 : Just 'one-liners,' aloges - not contributing anything to the discussion. Do you agree that the Eurozone, in particular, is in very deep trouble? And
85 aloges : Reply #81 contains three paragraphs, the first of which contains thre lines (and a bit) of text. You choose to quote the other two which contain one
86 Post contains images PanHAM : Normally, the English language is better suited for puns than the German language, with a few exceptions like "der Morgen graut/dem Morgen graut" wher
87 oldeuropean : Yep, this sums it up.
88 LH7478i : On a side note, what would happen to Ireland if the UK left? From what I know the UK is the biggest trade-partner from Ireland. What would change tari
89 PanHAM : Nothing would happen to Ireland they would stay in the EU. The question is, what happens to the UK as a whole, would Scotland, Northern OIreland and W
90 RussianJet : It is at least reassuring that on the whole our European partners seem to want us in rather than out.
91 Post contains images Revelation : I know it's hard to explain double meanings, but I know "geht's nicht" is translated as "doesn't go" and is used widely for something that isn't work
92 stealthz : Interesting numbers there,,, you Brits,French and Germans having a pissing contest for who contributes most... Luxembourg TAKES almost 2 MILLION Euro
93 oldeuropean : It's the German word "doofer", which is pronounced nearly similar to "Dover". It means: more stupid. So "Dover geht's nicht" can be translated as: "I
94 Post contains images aloges : It's a play on "doofer", the comparative form of "doof" which is "stupid" or "daft" in English. "Geht's nicht" could be translated as "it doesn't get
95 Post contains images PanHAM : Doof = stupid Doofer = even more stupid Dover = Doofer (pronounciation is the same) word by word translation does not work, that's why I used "how st
96 Post contains images aloges : He just miscalculated: € 953 360 989 received from the EU divided by 524 853 (the latest population estimate on Wikipedia) gives you € 1816 recei
97 Revelation : Thanks for filling me in! I love the German language, have picked up some in the past, hope to pick up more in the future!
98 Aesma : And yet it's not the prime minister of Spain that is talking about leaving the EU. And yet it's not the prime minister of Greece that is talking abou
99 lewis : TheBritish should be given a referendum as soon as possible. The year proposed is just too far away. I will not even attempt to discuss whether the UK
100 Revelation : Thanks for the info, but it doesn't change my main point that the average person didn't realize and weren't told what risk they were putting their mo
101 Aesma : Well some manage to profit from any situation, but overall I don't know if Greece has been profitable, after all private entities had to forfeit 100 b
102 Revelation : Another good point. Such an accounting is well beyond me, but it should be done, if nothing else to prove or disprove statements such as (but not onl
103 GDB : While over many years they might help to shape attitudes, it does not seem to work so well at election time and their influence is diminishing, throu
104 Post contains links NAV20 : That's why I keep saying that the only longterm solution to the problem is to phase out the Euro, lewis. The US dollar and the British pound are 'res
105 par13del : So essentially, developing countries in the Caribbean for example can follow the EU lead, set up a common currency without soverign backing and proce
106 NAV20 : Not, in my view, a matter of whether it would be 'allowed,' par13del. Fact is, any such arrangement, among 14 countries with vast differences in term
107 Aesma : Well you have the opposite example with the CFA Franc which is tied to the euro (and before the French Franc).
108 sabenapilot : Are we back at that 'sovereign' currency myth? In today's world, ALL money is fiat money, meaning its just paper guaranteed by a government or even be
109 Aesma : Michel Rocard, minister and then Prime Minister during Thatcher's administration, is hoping for a Brixit, that way the EU can move on.
110 Post contains links NAV20 : The two issues are inevitably inter-mingled, sabenapilot. Cameron, in my view, has pulled off a pretty good 'political coup' by advocating seeking ch
111 sabenapilot : The 2 issues are NOT intermingled at all, you simply drag the euro into every topic where Europe is being discussed and comment on the currency rather
112 vc10 : So this is the threat that unless the UK remains in the EU then we will denied the EU markets Well just a couple of points 1] The UK is a net importe
113 Post contains links NAV20 : Maybe I just have to quote an excerpt from Cameron's speech, sabenapilot. He put the Eurozone (and its rapidly-growing division into rich countries a
114 PanHAM : Wrong conclusion, I guess. Britain would rather become a member of EFTA if they lave the EU, it would possibly mleave the single market but still enj
115 sabenapilot : The link between the eurozone and the referendum on the UK's continued membership of the EU is not holding any grounds, since the UK in not in the eu
116 Post contains links NAV20 : Surely 'less' integration is an equally valid alternative solution, sabenapilot? It didn't get a lot of publicity, but a 'rescue operation' for the p
117 ME AVN FAN : Dublin-Agreement, ECAC, Eurovision, Carnet-ATA -- etc -- to state it clearly, the Dublin agreement for some reasons works against me personally but I
118 Aesma : From what I heard the UK could still have access to the EU market, it would just have to pay for it. Several billions euros a year. Less than the curr
119 Post contains images NAV20 : Have cordially to disagree, Aesma. Debts have 'disappeared' often enough in the past - once it became abundantly clear that there was no chance on Ea
120 JJJ : You can devaluate your currency as much as you want, but your debts are still denominated in euro/whatever other hard currency you want to use.
121 Post contains links NAV20 : If they revert to their old currencies, JJJ, any repayments would be in that currency. Though at the appropriate rate vis a' vis the Euro, of course.
122 JJJ : Only what you have borrowed in your own country. As it comes, most of the financing came from outside, in euro, so they will still be denominated in
123 OzGlobal : France has its issues, absolutely. However, you don't do much for your argument with sources like "the Daily Mail". They make stuff up and misquote.
124 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Oddly enough, I heard the quote first on our own ABC Newsradio station, OzGlobal. Googled Sapin and found the quote I linked to. So I'm sure that bot
125 Aesma : In context it makes all the difference. Sapin (an ironic name itself, in French) was indeed taking a jab at his predecessors, because in 2007 Fillon
126 Post contains images U2380 : We're not in one yet. Going down. It flat-lined last year Come back in a few months time, all of those things are almost certain to occur within the
127 Dano1977 : Personally with that attitude, isn't it no wonder we still have the island mentality and view everyone else as Johnny Foreigner. Cameron has the grea
128 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Fascinating situation developing in France. It's becoming pretty clear that M. Sapin meant exactly what he said - for which he earns my respect. But t
129 lewis : I'm sorry but this action is far from respectful. He should have first consulted his government before making such public statements, which may cause
130 OA260 : +1 its arrogance like that which makes the British public anti EU and I think fuels the flames ! One thing for sure is the Irish are quite worried ab
131 Aesma : He said it on a radio I never heard of. Apparently Radio J is a part-time radio sharing its frequency with three others, destined to the Jewish commu
132 lewis : Still though, such comments can create a lot of damage to the country due to the markets reacting. Not a very smart move from a politician. We did ha
133 Post contains links and images NAV20 : I know that you don't mean it that way, mate, but aren't you basically saying that all politicians should henceforward ask for permission from their
134 Aesma : It's not necessarily new debt, at least most of it is not new debt, it's old debt that needs refinancing. And the ECB's move has had the intended effe
135 lewis : Not exactly. There are some things that should not be shouted out like that because they can cause panic. First of all, he is the minister of labour,
136 NAV20 : I see what you mean, lewis, but in 'real life' it simply isn't possible for politics to work like that. Ministers and such, day by day, have to go al
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