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NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws  
User currently offlinedragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3973 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Governor Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday signed into law a new package of gun regulations intended to fortify New York's existing assault weapons ban, limit the number of bullets in magazines and strengthen rules that keep the mentally ill from owning firearms.

New York's law:
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.
•Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.
•Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her, as well.
•Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.
•Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature
•Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-first-since-newtown-massacre?lite

[Edited 2013-01-15 16:00:51]


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
131 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2619 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):

I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all. This does nothing.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.

This makes no sense to me, at all. Whats to stop a criminal who has a 19 round 9mm from killing me when I have a 7 round 9mm? The criminal is going to win while I die. This is not very well thought out.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.

Good luck with this one. 1) No one is going to register them because of 2) How do we know that the registry is not going to fall into the wrong hands and 3) This paints a target on the backs of gun owners by criminals who want to cause problems.

Fail.

This is a sad day for law abiding NY gun owners. Great intentions, but wrong approach...a knee-jerk reaction. The only question I have here is: "How exactly does this keep guns out of criminals hands and how does this actually gets the criminal to follow the law?"



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12199 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2616 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
n. The only question I have here is: "How exactly does this keep guns out of criminals hands and how does this actually gets the criminal to follow the law?"

Simple. It doesn't..



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
Simple. It doesn't..

Exactly. NY is actually punishing the honest NY gun owner who follows and abides by the laws at the criminal's expense. Kudos.

NY State needs to try this again.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.

I'm no gun expert, so I have no idea what a normal magazine could hold, but it would seem that there are a lot of them out there that would normally hold more than seven rounds. The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.

Not so sure about this one. The pickup requirement I have no problem with at all, nor the background check requirement (though I'd say that a current firearms license should be sufficient - it would save buyers time). But I'm not really sure why the government needs to know how much ammunition was purchased and by who. That's kind of like reporting to the government how much gas you buy.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.

Should be required for all guns, not just assault weapons.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her, as well.

Fine in principle, but in practice this is going to end up being a liability nightmare for those in the mental health profession. But the mechanism is something we're going to have to figure out if we're going to actually get serious about addressing mental health in combination with guns in this country, so...I guess someone has to be the guinea pig.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.

Agree.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature

Semantics, not much there. This whole "assault rifle" thing is an ill-conceived mess of definitions and loopholes. The gun-control people need to realize that the best people to write those laws are the pro-gun people, because they actually know that they're talking about and know what guns are capable of what. But you're not going to get them onboard, so they're not going to help you out. Limiting magazine size is a much simpler solution - that way, someone who wants a gun that looks like an M16 for cosmetic reasons can have one, but they'll be restricted in the amount of damage they can do with it at one time.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.

It should include members of the seller's immediate family. The Sandy Hook shooter could have bought his weapons from his mother without any background check under this law. Background checks aren't that difficult to do.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all.

Requiring background checks for all sales will make it harder for people who couldn't pass background checks to get guns. But the real problem is gun trafficking from states that have lenient gun laws, and there's nothing that New York can do about that. Only those states or the federal government can step in on that (and they should).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Requiring background checks for all sales will make it harder for people who couldn't pass background checks to get guns.

That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

   And those criminals are laughing at us.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

That's the way it is with laws, yes. Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

If we're going to object to laws by reasoning of "well, people who don't obey the law will be able to do things that people who do obey the law can't", what's the point of even having laws? Yet that would lead to anarchy.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7083 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services.


Wow something I agree with. It is like they read my mind. I proposed this is a paper I recently wrote.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state


7 is ridiculous.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.


10-12 is normal. 7 is absolutely ridiculous. Just hope you don't miss if a mad man comes into your home in NY.
So can a person just carry 2 magazines I guess?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free


Agreed

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
That's the way it is with laws, yes. Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

If we're going to object to laws by reasoning of "well, people who don't obey the law will be able to do things that people who do obey the law can't", what's the point of even having laws? Yet that would lead to anarchy.


Except this law is limiting a tool good people can use to defend themselves. Criminals don't care and you make a point when they get caught then its good. At the same time this is a tool a person can use to defend themselves against the criminal.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Sucks for NY gun owners, though I'd rather the states go about their own bans than something federal. Don't plan on ever living up in NY... these new measures seem pretty excessive though some I agree with


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3973 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

With regards to the new 7 rounds law. Lets say someone has a gun that holds 12 rounds, but only loads 7 rounds into the clip. Would that be legal under the new?


Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all. This does nothing.

  

Until something like this is implemented nationally, gun runners from my neck of the woods (Georgia) will keep the gun supply in New York state alive and healthy. There's a reason why I-95 has gotten a reputation for being a strong supply route--it simply is.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.

Guns aren't created illegally. At some point, they go over from being legal to being illegal. That happens when sales are conducted without background checks, it happens when straw purchases are made, it happens when people who do pass background checks become criminals, and it happens when guns are stolen. You can't do much about the last two, but requiring background checks for all sales and keeping registrations make it a hell of a lot harder to engage in the first two. And that'll make a big difference (or it would if kept up nationally, one state doing it doesn't do a whole lot).

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
Except this law is limiting a tool good people can use to defend themselves.

The only thing I see that limits people is the magazine capacity, which I've already said I think is too restrictive. If you're looking to rob somewhere, would it really matter to you that you had more bullets in your gun? A gunfight is not necessarily an endurance event - one well-placed shot from a well-trained gun owner and the situation is over.

Whenever you create a law, you're going to limit the good actions of good people - that's an inescapable fact of life. But that shouldn't stop laws from being enacted if the overal benefit of the law outweighs the drawbacks to those particular individuals (until you start running up against people's rights, which is when things get more complicated).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19271 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Sucks for NY gun owners, though I'd rather the states go about their own bans than something federal. Don't plan on ever living up in NY... these new measures seem pretty excessive though some I agree with

The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

As long as it is done on a state-by-state basis without a national ban, then the critics are correct. The illegal weapons will simply cross borders from places where they are legal and wind up in the hands of criminals.

However, the gun manufacturers and the NRA will make sure it never happens. And the same "constitutional originalists" will claim that the constitution protects their right to posses weapons that didn't exist until 200 years after the Constitution was ratified.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Guns aren't created illegally.

I never said that. I said they were obtained (for a better term) illegally by the criminal......

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 998 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2555 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

This is the most sensible approach to the problem in my opinion. It will take several years after stringent rules are implemented to see benefit, but over time lack of accessibility to such weapons will reduce their significance in American culture. It must also be implemented nationwide--Alaska to Florida, or more lenient states will become suppliers for states with stricter regulations.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action.

   But you can't wait for the federal government to act before passing your own legislation on an issue if you feel strongly about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in.

I can't go that far. In a perfect world, you'd be right, but the cat's out of the bag on semi-automatics. There are two many of them out there, and there are a lot of people who use them for perfectly reasonable things. The point of gun control should be to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do harm with them, not restrict what people who don't mean harm can do (of course, you're going to end up restricting what people who don't mean harm can do either way, but you can minimize that harm if you craft the laws appropriately and target what actually needs to be targeted).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
As long as it is done on a state-by-state basis without a national ban, then the critics are correct. The illegal weapons will simply cross borders from places where they are legal and wind up in the hands of criminals.

This is the elephant in the room that's going to be very difficult to address. Until Virginia reforms its gun laws, the Northeast is going to have a problem with illegal guns, because that's where a large portion of the illegal guns come from (and are purchased legally). That's something that only the federal government can stop.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I said they were obtained (for a better term) illegally by the criminal......

And I described how provisions in this law make it a lot harder to purchase guns without a background check and have someone else buy the gun for you. So if those two avenues are shut down, there are going to be a lot fewer criminals able to get their hands on guns.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7787 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

IMO that's just punishing the 99.9% because of the few bad. Even fully autos aren't completely banned and they are very very very very very rarely used in crime (a couple in the last few decades IIRC.) I wouldn't go as far as the NFA went but it goes to show you that you don't have to outright ban them to reduce the violence



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13004 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2534 times:

NY State has seen too many gun used multiple murder events. Too many from drug gang and criminal violence. The crazy guy on the LIRR (I used to work with a woman who's father was killed in that mass murder). At a center that helped immigrants in Binghamton, NY. The mass murder of children in Sandy Hook has finally triggered major changes at least in NY State.
Problem is will these new NY State laws work? Criminals will still get handguns and military type guns as well as high capacity magazines. Private individuals, so long as not seen using such now illegal guns and magazines and doing private deals unlikely to be reported will have little to fear. Will police in the majority of NY State's area outside of about 10 urban counties (of over 60 counties in the state) enforce these laws? NY State and in particular NY City already have strict gun and handgun laws that in part have worked, but more likely gun murder rates in that state and in NY City is more about better police procedures, longer sentences for criminals who use guns.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature

So, let me ask: If I had a Tikka T3 30-06 hunting rifle and installed a military style scope on it, does that classify it as a military assault weapon, just because of the scope?? Seriously?!

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
So if those two avenues are shut down, there are going to be a lot fewer criminals able to get their hands on guns.

Let's hope this actually works. Now Congress needs to make this a Federal Law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
I can't go that far.

Me either, I agree. Like you said, there are wayyy too many of these around nationwide.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The point of gun control should be to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do harm with them, not restrict what people who don't mean harm can do

Agreed.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11446 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2502 times:
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A knee jerk reaction that doesn't render anyone safer but leaves law abiding citizens at greater risk and will create an entirely new category of criminals out of formerly law abiding citizens who refuse to be deprived of their property.

They banned magazines in Gocks, Colts, Sigs...not just ARs. I don't even think they considered that .22 target pistols with 9 round magazines were included. What about 8 round revolvers...they are out there.

This law deprives people of their liberty and their property in a doomed effort to make people safer, when only the ignorant and deluded will feel that way.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
I'm no gun expert, so I have no idea what a normal magazine could hold, but it would seem that there are a lot of them out there that would normally hold more than seven rounds. The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.


This basically bans the majority of semi-automatic handguns out there. Most of your double-stack compacts will have a magazine that holds 9-11 rounds. A 'standard' (4 inch'ish barrel) semi-auto will have a capacity of 10 - 16 or 17, depending on caliber (again, double stack). Most of your .380's should be ok since they have 6 or 7 round magazines. Some of your larger caliber single stack should also be ok...the S&W Shield comes to mind, along with some of your smaller 1911 (.45) types. The vast majority of revolvers will be ok. The only exception that comes to mind is Ruger's LCR (capacity 8), but I'm sure there's others. But, since that's not a magazine, does that count?

What I consider the premier marksmanship practice pistol would also be banned; the Ruger Mark series.

I won't even get into rifles. It just about bans every semi-auto matic rifle...or at least the magazines that go into them.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
The pickup requirement I have no problem with at all, nor the background check requirement (though I'd say that a current firearms license should be sufficient - it would save buyers time).


And save cost. I can't imagine an FFL would provide a background check for free. I can see requiring a firearm's permit to purchase. I'm ok with that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Fine in principle, but in practice this is going to end up being a liability nightmare for those in the mental health profession.


Of course, you'd have to legislate around HIPAA.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.


Agreed.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.


Let's make it a little bit less onerous...a background check or a valid carry or firearm permit. I'm not opposed to that at all.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons.


Nope.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.


Will NY State pay for the magazine that can't be sold? What about keeping a round in the chamber? If I have a 10 round magazine, but keep 7 in the magazine and one in the chamber, what happens?

All-in-all, feel good legislation that makes no one safer.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15695 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.

Seems like it would be an expensive and annoying exercise, but this better put an end to anti-gun people questioning why gun owners have large stocks of ammunition.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons.

Better not be public.

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

Expanding the definition of criminal to people who dare put eight rounds in a magazine doesn't make me feel any safer. (Or wouldn't if I were in New York)

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Guns aren't created illegally.

It wouldn't be that difficult actually. Several thousand dollars of tooling, some skill, and materials. I'd say it probably isn't considerably more challenging than bomb making.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
And the same "constitutional originalists" will claim that the constitution protects their right to posses weapons that didn't exist until 200 years after the Constitution was ratified.

In that case you have no problems with warrant-less wiretaps of phone lines or spying on email or cellular communications right? None of those were considered when the Fourth Amendment was written.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
Several thousand dollars of tooling, some skill, and materials.

I could make a servicable single fire breech loader in a couple of hours with the simple tools in my garage. And, I'm no machinists...as any of my A&P instructors would attest to.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

I really don't think we need assault rifles and drum magazines to defend ourselves our families and our businesses from criminals or to hunt with. They belong in the battlefield and I would support them in shooting ranges for civilian use, I have no problem with them there but for what reason does one need them in a house other than to fight a police force or army or start an insurrection.


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
25 Mir : I'm not really concerned with anyone trying to use a single fire breech loader in a crime any time soon. -Mir
26 T prop : 7 round magazines? Why not just require owners of weapons that are capable of using high capacity magazines have a proper gun safe and to keep the wea
27 fr8mech : Neither am I, though it could certainly ruin someone's day. Just making a comment based on another comment.
28 BMI727 : Building more powerful stuff would probably take more effort, but not enough to be impossible or even improbable. Considering the extent of some drug
29 L-188 : Well NY and Cuome hust proved that they are part of the armpit of America. Hopefully most of these rules will be dumped in lawsuits. Remington needs t
30 mt99 : They should. If they don't - you should loose respect to Remington.
31 AirframeAS : I agree. I took them as a Texas company. Didn't know that they were NY based.
32 L-188 : I haven't bought a Remington in years. I avoided them when about ten years ago they where putting those stupid bolt keys on their rifles. Worse if you
33 ANITIX87 : DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH THE NEW LAW. My problem comes with the arguments being thrown at one another in here. I BEG OF YOU ALL
34 Post contains images AirframeAS : Who said I was going to do that? WTF?! Are you trying to be flamebait-ish here? Looks like it. Im not even going to comment on that. Ignorant you are
35 fr8mech : If that's what it takes to stop the threat, yes. Let's be clear on this, if someone breaks into your house, he has the advantage. I have no illusion
36 ANITIX87 : I'll try to remain as respectful as I can. One of us has to try. Your post (the text I quoted) said, "This makes no sense to me, at all. Whats to stop
37 AirframeAS : You came off very harsh and disrespectful, that why I responded the way I did. You don't deserve any explanation from me. Well, hot damn! You could h
38 Post contains links mt99 : Yikes..Alex Jones.. is that you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Ddb3oa5CE
39 Post contains images AirframeAS : Uh, what??
40 mt99 : You are so calm and rational.. you reminded me of him.
41 Post contains images KaiGywer : I agree, seven is ridiculous. Even though I don't see the point, if anything, go to ten, since that was the last allowed limitation. These magazines
42 Post contains images AirframeAS : Uh, yeah sure... pick on the deaf guy. That video doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.
43 Mir : The intruder is also going to be under stress, and you have the advantage of knowing the layout of the house while the intruder probably doesn't. I'd
44 Post contains links mt99 : You can get the jist by looking at him. But here is transcript http://lybio.net/tag/alex-jones-vs-p...rgan-on-gun-control-transcription/
45 soon7x7 : As is typical in New York, Politicians never waste a tragedy, neither does the press. When some nut job decides to cross the line and cause injury to
46 Revelation : Cry me a river. Every ****ing dog (yes, every barking dog) in my town has a license tag hanging around its neck and I don't hear dog owners complaini
47 AirframeAS : No need to move along, and I effing won't. It impacts me and it also impacts the whole country. When one State adopts a tough law, many other States
48 fr8mech : But, he has probably done this before. I haven't. He has a real good idea on how far he's willing to go. I have no clue what he's willing to do. My k
49 Revelation : It only directly impacts citizens of NY state, since this is a NY state law. It impacts you about as much as the Swiss guy, who you seemed to be quit
50 DeltaMD90 : Actually I see it as a good compromise... I doubt SC and GA are gonna be following the leads of NY. If anything, our loose gun laws affect NY and not
51 Mir : This sums up my position on gun control perfectly. I only care about other states' gun laws to the extent that they affect my state (NY). If we could
52 DeltaMD90 : I do not either. You and I probably agree that straw purchasing won't totally end, unfortunately, but I think it would go down dramatically. And anyo
53 Post contains links AirframeAS : You sure you don't want to retract that? Check this out then, almost similar to the NY State law, proposed by Obama: http://seattletimes.com/html/pol
54 fr8mech : Here's what I don't think is reasonable. NY wishes to impose its gun control laws on the rest of the country because the majority of ITS politicians
55 EMBQA : What the heck are you talking about...?
56 Revelation : No, because the NY law still only impacts NY citizens, and the proposed federal law will only impact US citizens if/when it gets passed by Congress a
57 DeltaMD90 : I hope we do go down this road. As a return gesture, I hope the more lenient gun-law states will try their best to prohibit the flow of arms to the m
58 AirframeAS : If you even BOTHERED to read the article, Obama's proposal almost mirrors what the NY law is. But I don't think you even bothered to read the article
59 fr8mech : But, they are, indirectly. When they enact a highly restrictive law, and that law is ineffective because other states are not as restrictive, they po
60 Mir : Whenever NY complains about gun crime driven by guns bought legally elsewhere and trafficked in, the response from the pro-gun crowd tends to be some
61 Revelation : And if you even BOTHERED to read what I wrote, no matter WHAT the President is PROPOSING even if it is LINE FOR LINE IDENTICAL to the NY law it ISN'T
62 fr8mech : Nope, just suggesting an answer to a problem that a small segment (~6%) of the overall population has. Not imposing anything...though the Reciprocity
63 Mir : It's really just saying "we don't want to live by your gun laws, why don't you live by ours?" I don't see why that should be any less objectionable j
64 JJJ : As resident of a country that has capacity limits on long guns for, like, ever it works like that. Any long gun has a max capacity of 5+1 rounds (tar
65 AirframeAS : What impacts NY State will impact everyone else later on, regardless of State. That's my point. That's what Obama's trying to do on the Federal level
66 Revelation : I've understood all along, but totally disagree. Understand now??? Here is the logic behind my point of view. There's been states that have had very
67 DeltaMD90 : I see why there are mad, but to be fair, if you've ever traveled across the border at TIJ you can see a lot of the problem is their doing. I could've
68 fr8mech : As it should be. Let the individual states make their own decisions, based on the will of their citizens. They need to live by those decisions. If a
69 cptkrell : I apologize if someone has previously mentioned this (if so I missed it), but it will be very interesting to see what effect these new laws have on gu
70 Mir : Fine. But then all those states should make sure that guns purchased in those states stay in those states. Otherwise they're just hanging signs that
71 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Lol I highly doubt GA will copy NY's law
72 GSPflyer : I don't get this all out war on "assault" rifles, I really don't. There are around 400 murders per year with rifles. A ban on "assault" rifles will do
73 fr8mech : So, what you're saying is that NY should be able to dictate to other states what laws they should enact. Again, if NY, or any other state, wishes to
74 Mir : To the extent of making sure that the effect of the laws don't bleed over into other states, yes. Nothing more. Otherwise, the state with the most le
75 fr8mech : So, NY does get to tell other states what to do. A little but different, but my neighbor does not have a constitutional right to throw shit in my yar
76 Post contains images soon7x7 : I really don't think it will go that way...I see other states observing NY and gearing up to avoid the issue at Cuomo's level. I also see Cuomo possi
77 Mir : It would. And it's a step I'd advocate taking. As I said before, the standards for confirming identity and eligibility for purchase of a firearm or a
78 fr8mech : Yes, it does. NY has strict gun laws because the the politicians, for whatever reason fear their citizens having guns. It has been shown nationwide,
79 Geezer : All of which you will never see in your lifetime. (Also.........I sure hope you know more about medicine than you know about guns......) I'll tell yo
80 Post contains images soon7x7 : Meanwhile in New Jersey last night a woman holding her child was stabbed 12 times by a 19 year old male while she was shopping in Bed/Bath & Beyo
81 mt99 : With a knife you can not kill 20 people at in 30 seconds..That's the difference.[Edited 2013-01-18 07:19:46]
82 OzGlobal : This was done at Federal level in Australia, not that they ever had anything like the penetration of guns at large, and it was highly successful. The
83 DiamondFlyer : It's because the gun nazi's are afraid of anything they see as a threat to their continued assault on freedoms. 400 people a year killed by rifle's y
84 Post contains links DiamondFlyer : Not that I like to post twice in a row, but I ran across this today. Not sponsored by any organization, company or anything. Just the facts. http://ww
85 fr8mech : But, quite possibly, if she were allowed to be armed...NJ, like NY, is a may issue state...she may not have been stabbed 12 times. The outcome could
86 GSPflyer : Exactly. I don't even need a background check to buy any of those, only a simple glance at my ID to make sure I'm 21 to buy booze.
87 lewis : So she could just pull her handgun out, while holding a baby and start shooting while in panic in a BB&B that could possibly be full of other cus
88 fr8mech : Instead, she was left defenseless by The State of New Jersey. The very state that is supposed to protect her. I am intellectually honest enough to ad
89 mt99 : You are here already. You asked "what if there was a gun?" - well there wasn't. There was a knife. A knife that cannot kill 20 people in 30 seconds.
90 DiamondFlyer : An airplane can kill 400 people in 30 seconds. Time to ban them too, right? Those are the facts -DiamondFlyer[Edited 2013-01-18 13:48:55]
91 mt99 : Ahh.. but the capability to do this is very limited Can anyone get into the cockpit to make it crash? can you walk into a plane without passing thru
92 soon7x7 : The point here about the woman that was stabbed is not to make the case, she should have been carrying a pistol and that we should revert to the days
93 mt99 : Of course! But not at the 20 people per 30 second rate!
94 fr8mech : Absolutely not. First: I make the assumption that she is not allowed to carry a gun because she lives in a "may-issue" state. That being the case: sh
95 mt99 : That is a huge assumption. Unless you have proof of this you have no argument. Prove that everyone that was "in a position" to help he have been expl
96 DiamondFlyer : Sure, but the fed's are already involved in what you can and can't buy for a gun. You can't just go out and buy an Assault Rifle. You can't just go o
97 mt99 : But you can buy guns that kills 20 people in 30 second. Cant you?
98 DiamondFlyer : You can buy an airplane or bus that will kill 20 people in 30 seconds too. I said it before and I'll say it again. You simply cannot go out and buy a
99 mt99 : For both; you need certifications from the government that you know how to operate before you get to drive them - specially airplanes,. And yes -(ill
100 mt99 : How long did Lanza own his weapons for? did he buy it on a moments notice?
101 L-188 : Turns out in the rush to push this crappy legislate Andrew forgot to include an exemption for cops, SO they are supposed to be under the same rules as
102 DiamondFlyer : Your crusade against cancer doesn't infringe on my rights. Your crusade against guns does. Am I willing to support some basic things, yes. In fact, I
103 lewis : No she was not. If there was an officer close-by and did not answer the calls for help or just stood there and watched, then you would have a point.
104 cptkrell : DiamondFlyer; thanks for your Rep 84. I hope everyone will access this site you provided.. I, for one, knew most of these facts piecemeal, but seeing
105 DiamondFlyer : Nothing bothers me more than people who want to ban this, that and the other, but really have no knowledge of what they are talking about. Shockingly
106 mt99 : Let me ask you something... Does the fact that you cannot buy a nuclear power submarine infiringr on your rights? Does the fact that you cannot buy a
107 cmf : The wast majority of homicides are with guns. There are plenty of restrictions on alcohol. And unlike what you're trying to propose there isn't a sug
108 Post contains links DiamondFlyer : More people are killed with hammers and clubs than they are with rifles. If you want to make a meaningful impact on crime, ban pistols, not long guns
109 Post contains links cmf : http://www.statisticbrain.com/murder-weapon-statistics/ In 2009 67% of all homicides where by guns. Trying to reduce it to rifles is dishonest. But I
110 Post contains links fr8mech : Yes, she was. If the law prevents her from legally obtaining a firearm, then the state has limited her options. We all know, I hope we do, that the p
111 DiamondFlyer : How is it though? All the politicians want an AWB redo, which more or less bans long guns, with few restrictions on handguns. The way they are going
112 fr8mech : Their "solution" makes them feel good. Their "solution" shows that "THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING".
113 par13del : Introducing bans in an open society is difficult if not impossible, a number of drugs are illegal and banned from possession and the drug trade is a
114 fr8mech : It probably varies from state to state. For instance, in my state, it appears that permit information can not be released to anybody but a law enforc
115 N867DA : Look, if more guns really do reduce crime, then why does the United States lead the developed world in gun-related homicides? Sure, one may say they'r
116 Post contains images cmf : No she wasn't. Weapons are not the only form of defense. But you are continuing your fear mongering. Reality is that no matter what we do there will
117 cws818 : Have you ever heard the old saying "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? ANITIX87 can choose whatever flag he likes. You don't have to
118 ImperialEagle : Exactly. Chicago has some of the toughest gun regulation in the U.S. yet they managed about 500 murders in 2012. Seriously? 500 murders? Why hasn't t
119 windy95 : Because a majority of these are drug related or gang crimes. How many of these are done with legally obtained firearms? Gang banging and drug related
120 N867DA : This only works if the supply of guns is limited nationally. Chicago can do all it wants but as long as people can drive to Indiana to buy whatever t
121 cmf : Oklahoma has very lax gun regulation, only 2 points for not forcing collages to allow weapons out of 100 potential points, yet had almost the same 20
122 Mir : But then there are all the various state rules on where you can do if you want to buy a gun but don't want to do a background check. Those need to be
123 DiamondFlyer : No, but a vast majority of the guns mentioned by name in the proposed AWB are long guns. Which, aren't responsible for nearly any of the gun deaths i
124 soon7x7 : Suicide bombers here in the US...they are not far off. Results will be better than 20/30seconds...just wait.
125 cmf : Your claim was that it was, more or less a ban on long guns. And while I agree they are not the biggest problem they are a sizable problem. It isn't
126 mt99 : And are Suicide Bombers legal? "If"? how do you know that the case. Maybe she chose not to have a weapon. Exactly...
127 Revelation : It also takes a willingness to consider any/all options, such as trying to increase the protections built into the weapon. Was listening to a show sa
128 L-188 : License plates where never intended to prevent misuse. They are simply to show that taxes on the car have npbeen paid.
129 Post contains links jetmech : So unfortunately, a teenager yet again commits a multiple firearm homicide which again has children as victims. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/201..
130 fr8mech : State rules do not trump federal rules on firearms purchase. If you buy a gun from an FFL, you fill out the form. All, the various state rules do are
131 cmf : It does. Problem is all the different dangers they pose for that unlikely event. Especially since experience (statistics) show you are more likely to
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