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Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2620 times:
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In what has been described as a 'bungled raid' by the Algerian army, it appears most of the hostages have been killed. Various nationalities have lost lives, including the UK and US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...Britons-die-in-bungled-rescue.html

Both the UK and the US offered military assistance to bring the situation to an end, but this was refused. GREAT choice there Algeria, thanks a bunch.   

Very sad.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7890 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Terrible, RIP. As bad as this sounds, even 1 person surviving an AQ hostage is welcome news. I hope there are indeed more survivors but as said, we should be braced for the worst

A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2598 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out

Perhaps, but a real shame they didn't let more experienced military personnel attempt rescue.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5521 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
In what has been described as a 'bungled raid' by the Algerian army, it appears most of the hostages have been killed. Various nationalities have lost lives, including the UK and US.

Hmmm, From what I had read there were something like 300 hostages. So while 30 people dying is bad it is not "all of them". We'll have to wait and see what has actually occurred and just how bad it is.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8838 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out

Which is when you send in professionals to put bullets in their heads in a proficient military manner.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2587 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Hmmm, From what I had read there were something like 300 hostages

Wow, I have to admit I didn't realise there were that many.

The British PM seems pretty peeved though.....



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7890 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Perhaps, but a real shame they didn't let more experienced military personnel attempt rescue.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Which is when you send in professionals to put bullets in their heads in a proficient military manner.

Oh I wasn't talking about the fact that the Algerian government denied assistance. Dumb move, I agree



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

For the number of hostages, figures as high as 400 have been mentioned. This is because most are/were Algerians (as you would expect in Algeria), and for some reason news sources decided to put hostages in several categories, making the whole affair more difficult to understand.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Both the UK and the US offered military assistance to bring the situation to an end, but this was refused.

Well, both the UK and US would never accept military assistance from Algeria, so it's understandable. And not new, in 1978 with an AF plane involved the same thing happened, so now Algeria supposedly has trained teams for such things.

We don't have enough information yet, but from what I heard, I doubt a better outcome would have been achieved by anybody else, there were explosive belts involved, and of course the terrorists were ready for martyrdom.

What is really a concern is rather that the attack could happen and succeed to begin with, as Algeria is always claiming to have a tight grip on its borders (and is in fact claiming the raid came from inside, which might be true).

As for negotiating with terrorists in such situations, it hasn't worked in a long time, and the Algerian army is killing terrorists on a regular basis, they're not going to even pretend to agree to negotiate.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2539 times:

Apparently representatives frokm the Norwegian Special Forces unit FSK was sendt to Alger on Wednesday to try and advice the Algerians. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...il-Algerie-7095227.html#xtor=RSS-3

But they seem to have arrived to late. The Algerians does'nt seem to have spent alot of time on planning this operations .... It has been mentioned that the Algerian army used rockets fired from hellicopter ...

[Edited 2013-01-17 17:17:04]

[Edited 2013-01-17 17:25:10]

User currently offlineDNDTUF From France, joined Feb 2012, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2503 times:

Very sad indeed. From reading the press here in France and also the Francophone Algérie Press Service, it would appear that Algeria was reluctant to accept any outside intervention (which is completely understandable given that this happened on Algerian territory with most of the hostages being Algerian citizens). It would seem that, again quite understabably, Algeria doesn't want to seem soft on Islamist terrorism, so took the heavy handed decision to attack the gas field via aerial intervention. Given the country's position at the heart of the Mediterranean, Arab states and Africa, I can only imagine the pressure the government was under. I think everyone should wait for more details before condemning anything.

On another note, France's terror threat level, the Vigipirate, has been heightened to red, the second highest level, given the recent developments in Mali. I hope that the recent events in Algeria won't provoke any sort of retribution in France.

I've heard that several Scottish citizens were caught up in this, let's hope for the best news possible for everyone who has been affected by this.

DNDTUF


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2483 times:

9 Norwegians still unaccounted for ...

User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2448 times:

Incredibly rushed operation, I haven't read too much but to launch an enormous counter terrorism operation within 48 hours seems quite foolhardy considering they likely knew very little oh how many terrorists, where the hostages were being kept, what the terrorists were armed with. Crucial things to know before going in guns (rockets) blazing. The US, UK and others will rightly be pretty pissed that their citizens were so hastily thrown under the bus.

User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Over 20 Filipinos are unaccounted for. I hope they're all right.  
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/5...os-among-hostages-in-algeria---dfa


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2439 times:

Well the operation wasn't rushed per se, TV news here said that it's the terrorists that attempted to escape with the hostages, precipitating the response.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

Good for the Algerians standing up to the AQIM barbarians.

Algeria has always stood up to islamists and have always decimated them. It's sad that hostages had to die, but I applaud Algeria's government standing up to these savage nonsensical people.

I think the US, UK, and Japan need to shut up with regards to 'not being told ahead of time'. The US and UK do not run the world. Algeria can and will do as it pleases in its own country. What it has shown is resolve against militants.

Rather than turn this into a long, drawn out hostage mess. End it in just over 24 hours.    I think the next statement from Algeria should be, "we are not going to be beholden to terroristic activities of AQIM and spillover from North Mali. We will shoot and kill jihadists threatening our sovereignty in the quickest way possible."

Criticism against the Algerians is missing the point. Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1253 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.

Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1210 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):

And I understand that and we're I taken hostage I would feel the same way. However, that would open the door for such future attacks if terrorists see that they can accomplish something more than a bullet to the head with their actions.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

Another issue to this... Natural gas and oil are one of the primary money-makers for Algeria's economy. Do you think for a second that they would let radical Islamists seize and keep a gas field? What kind of precedent does that set? What kind of precedent does it set that they will send in their military not even 2 days later? Algerian powers that be aren't stupid. They are going to protect their golden geese at all costs.

Furthermore. When a westerner goes to work in a foreign place that has security problems, you cannot expect the same level of protection as working in the country you come from. The deserts of Algeria and Libya are a lot different from Houston, Oslo, London, Paris, etc.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2328 times:
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Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting?

I can't believe how incredibly hazy the reporting actually is on this in our media in the UK.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Criticism against the Algerians is missing the point. Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.

Not really, as the issue is whether they should have accepted help with a raid - that's not negotiating. While Algeria may have some experience of this sort of thing, I struggle to believe their armed forces would be as well-resourced or experienced of those the UK or US may have helped with.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well the operation wasn't rushed per se, TV news here said that it's the terrorists that attempted to escape with the hostages, precipitating the response.

That, of course, would certainly put a different slant on things if true.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1253 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
I can't believe how incredibly hazy the reporting actually is on this in our media in the UK.

Yeah well now it seems that apparently there truly were hundreds of hostages, I guess this Finnish rubbish media only counted western hostages then...

Well now I understand Algerian operation better, at first I thought there were only 41 hostages and that 30 of them died in the attack which of course would have been total disaster, but now 30 dead from +600 hostages isn't that bad.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Looking around the web it appears that most news organizations are playing with the numbers.

Yes, there were several hundred hostages.

Most were local nationals.

Most nation news organizations/ web sites seem to be reporting the number of hostages as the number of their nationals, or area countries. The 41 number is likely the number of scandanivians.

30 of that group were not killed. Apparently 30 total were killed.

Some US news sources are reporting 30 killed, and some are saying there were 10 Americans, with five recovered safely and the fate of five unknown.

It's probably too early after the hostage taking and the recovery raid to have reliable numbers.

But not having accurate numbers has never stopped news organizations for reporting distored 'facts'.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7890 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.

That would arguably lead to more deaths. If AQ gets wind that we'll do whatever they wanted to get a hostage back, do you not think they'd just kidnap a lot more? I mean it sucks but in the long run I think it keeps the kidnappings down



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous

Where did AQ come from? Remember?

The organisation grew out of the network of Arab volunteers who had gone to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight under the banner of Islam against Soviet Communism.
====During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.====
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1670089.stm

Why did we help them in first place?

 Wow!

...
It was the latest surprising development in a hostage drama that began Wednesday when ===militants=== seized hundreds of workers from 10 nations at Algeria's remote Ain Amenas natural gas plant. Algerian forces retaliated Thursday by storming the plant in an attempted rescue operation that killed at least four hostages and left leaders around the world expressing strong concerns about the hostages' safety.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-01-18-09-20-41

Now these same groups (all "disciples" of OBL) are turning against us.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7890 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
Where did AQ come from? Remember?

Yes I do remember. What's your point? That has nothing to do with giving into demands regarding hostages, the point we are discussing now...      



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.

Well they're terrorists not bank robbers, not even pirates. They don't want money to go live on an island, they want ways to kill even more innocent civilians, so there is really no point in negotiating.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

CNN is now reporting that there were 132 'foreign' hostages taken by the terrorists - according to the Algerian government press agency.

100 of those have been freed by the Algerian raid, and that status of the other 32 is unknown according to Algerian sources.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

The situation is still ongoing. There were hostages and assailants in the "town" part of the site, this has ended, however a dozen terrorists with around 30 hostages are in the production part, so there is no way to attack with explosives and the like, or there could be a major disaster.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2262 times:

But aren't rebels good people and freedom fighters?

That's what they said about Libya and Syria but now they are terrorists?

 Wow!  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

One man's resistance fighter is another man's terrorist.

In this case though, they're not fighting for a country that existed before, and don't have the support of the local population either, so they're only there for themselves.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
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Quoting QFA380 (Reply 11):
Incredibly rushed operation, I haven't read too much but to launch an enormous counter terrorism operation within 48 hours seems quite foolhardy considering

The operation was precipitated because the terrorists attempted boarding buses with the hostages for transporting them God nows where. That is why rockets launched from helicopters were used. To destroy the buses or trucks. It´s not like the Algerians rushed anything. They had no choice.

A more pointed question would be why Western governments did not warn their citizens in that part of the world of possible consequences after the Mali operation started by France. I heard that today over 600 ex-pats were evacuated from the region into Palma.

As for negotiating. There is no negotiating with these animals.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Its in the hundreds. Some sources say 400, others 500, others 600.



MGGS
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2227 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Algeria has always stood up to islamists and have always decimated them.

While that is true, it came at a horrific cost: more than 50,000 dead, GIA,Algerian forces, and mostly civilians.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
They don't want money to go live on an island, they want ways to kill even more innocent civilians, so there is really no point in negotiating.

Actually, no. What they want is for all Westerners and other infidels (Japanese, Filipinos, for example) to leave Algeria and other places they define as Muslim, so that a new caliphate can arise. They want what they view as 'purity'.

Use of terror is, in their eyes, a means to an end.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
Apparently representatives frokm the Norwegian Special Forces unit FSK was sendt to Alger on Wednesday to try and advice the Algerians.

I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.

But they have almost certainly trained with both.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
Actually, no. What they want is for all Westerners and other infidels (Japanese, Filipinos, for example) to leave Algeria and other places they define as Muslim, so that a new caliphate can arise. They want what they view as 'purity'.

The thing is, they kill mainly Muslims in the process, making very few friends.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

They should have asked the US to send CAG or DEVGRU, or the UK to send the SAS? Although I am not sure if it was DEV or a regular SEAL team that screwed up the last hostage rescue attempt, by fragging the hostage? Why not ask the pro's to do what they do best?

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.

The various Norwegian specialforces has trained and indeed been on several missions with all the US specialforces and also UK specialforces. All the major US and UK specialforces also train with the Norwegian specialforces annually in Norway for several decades including CAG, DEVGRU, Seal Team 6, SAS, SBS, etc. They don't come to Norway just for the scenary and weather conditions alone, but also because the Norwegian specialforces give them a serious run for their money and have been known to "park" especially the US specialforces on several occations. The UK specialforces was the ones that helped Norway in the start when we started up with our own specialforces several decades ago. The US and especially the UK specialforces are among the best in the world, but they are not invincible. One of the special,forces untis in Norway are especially trained to deal with terror against oil and gas installations in the North sea.

Forsvarets Spesialkommando ( Armed Forces' Special Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_Spesialkommando_(FSK)" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_Spesialkommando_(FSK)

Marinejegerkommandoen ( Marine specialforces ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinejegerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinejegerkommandoen

Hærens Jegerkommando ( Army HUnter commando ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A6rens_Jegerkommando

Kystjegerkommandoen ( The Coastal Ranger Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kystjegerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kystjegerkommandoen

Minedykkerkommandoen ( The Mine Diver Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minedykkerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minedykkerkommandoen

[Edited 2013-01-18 13:55:48]

[Edited 2013-01-18 14:01:51]

User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

So how well do we understand the situation now? I saw this story breaking yesterday but news sources were still confused. It's apparent that it was a very bloody operation, I hope the families of the innocents killed find peace...

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

One American confirmed dead:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/18/wo...ostage-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

RIP




A millitary installation basically next door to the plant.

Talk of an inside job now ... Apparently there is a millitary camp with several hundreds of Algerian soldiers on the way between the residential area and the plant. How the hell did the terrorists get passed it without these Algerian soldiers doing anything ? The soldiers had advanced survailance cameras, weaphons etc. Apparently they were asleep ...


Article in Norwegian:

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10878494

[Edited 2013-01-18 18:17:17]

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2101 times:

RIP to those who died in the attempt and sympathy to those who have lost someone.

Algerian State media is reported as saying that 650 hostages, including 573 Algerians have been freed. The Algerian Interior Ministry is also claiming that the Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

Al Jazeera reports that the US is being careful not to be seen as sending in any troops to avoid giving the "impression of invading another Muslim-majority nation". While the US may have "offered help", if the report is true, this may have been limited to technical advice rather than personnel engaged directly in carrying out a rescue mission.

However, just as the Algerians do not wish to be seen as soft on terrorism, the US comment on a prisoner swap demanded by the Masked Brigade (i.e. we will release hostages if you release our fighters elsewhere, etc) was "the United States does not negotiate with terrorists."

So at some stage there would have been a shoot-out. Question is, would the results achieved by the "professionals" been any different? Would it have been any more successful than the joint US-French attempt to rescue French intelligence officer, Denis Allex, held by Al-Shebab in Somalia?

"United States combat aircraft briefly entered Somali airspace to support the rescue operation, if needed. These aircraft did not employ weapons during the operation," Obama said in his letter to to Congress on Sunday.

So, not one but two groups of "professionals" and the mission a resounding success - if the aim was to kill the French intelligence officer.

[Edited 2013-01-18 18:58:45]

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
including 573 Algerians have been freed

From what I understand they were allowed to go. The terrorist were not interested in them. Only foreigners...


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11588 posts, RR: 15
Reply 40, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2073 times:

I see we (read: media) is really concerned with the oil and gas but not the war in Mali.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2062 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2064 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

As far as I'm aware they were indeed. Mercenaries hired by the rebels and presumedly assisted by the west, who now have moved onto Mali. Apparently this is one of the reasons they've been so effective, battle hardened mercenaries with new weapons against the tiny Malian army.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 42, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2062 times:
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Quoting seb146 (Reply 40):
I see we (read: media) is really concerned with the oil and gas but not the war in Mali.

Not really sure why you would say this. Can't necessarily speak for the US, but the Mali situation has received plenty of coverage in the news here. Having said that, it happens to be a fact that the US is not directly participating in that operation, and yet there are US nationals involved in this hostage situation - so if you in the US are seeing more coverage of this then may it's partly because of that rather obvious reason, and also because of the acute nature of this situation compared with the more ongoing nature of the other.

Frankly, I find your comment a little distasteful, as even if the Algeria situation really is receiving more attention right now then it's pretty understandable. It's as though you somehow resent coverage of an obviously important hostage situation involving US and other foreign nationals, using it as a reason to trumpet the very tired and facile oil line.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 43, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Western countries generally set the priority in saving the hostages, even if this means giving in to some of the terrorist´s demands (under the presumption that you can always get them later under better circumstances).
It could be said that such an attitude actually encourages hostage takings.

Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists. If some hostages get rescued, fine, but the priority is to kill the terrorists, so that they would never ever gain an advantage from taking hostages.
This also means that thr Algerian hostages in this crisis were worthless for the terrorists, since the Algerian government would sacrifice them if necessary anyway.
They were depending on the (mainly western) nations of most of the foreign hostages to put pressure on the Algerian government to negotiate and give in to the terrorists to have tneir own citizens released (e.g. Japan´s government has already summoned the Algerian ambassador tro explain why not more was done to save the Japanese hostages).
When it looked as if the terrorists would disappear into the desert, where they are very adept of living in, they had to act and do it fast, also to forestall foreign pressure to give in to terrorist´s demands.
Face it: if you get taken hostage by terrorits in a country like Algeria or Russia, you are essentially toast and just a political pawn to be sacrifised if necessary.-

Jan


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11588 posts, RR: 15
Reply 44, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
Not really sure why you would say this.

Because the "media" (read: FOX/AM radio) made such a big deal over terrorists and al-Qaida being a threat to national security between 2001-2009. The group in northern Mali are affiliated with al-Qaida. But, that does not seem to matter now, since gas/oil are threatened. I guess because it is an American media (FOX/AM radio) thing.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists.

and new ones will most likely arise unfortunetly ....


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 46, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2001 times:
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Quoting seb146 (Reply 44):

Because the "media" (read: FOX/AM radio) made such a big deal over terrorists and al-Qaida being a threat to national security between 2001-2009. The group in northern Mali are affiliated with al-Qaida. But, that does not seem to matter now, since gas/oil are threatened. I guess because it is an American media (FOX/AM radio) thing.

But again (and I hate to defend FOX here) is that not actually understandable where American hostages are directly threatened?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 47, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 41):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

As far as I'm aware they were indeed. Mercenaries hired by the rebels and presumedly assisted by the west, who now have moved onto Mali. Apparently this is one of the reasons they've been so effective, battle hardened mercenaries with new weapons against the tiny Malian army.

Also remember that many tons of high quality weapons of the Gaddafi secret police and military units were 'liberated' by such groups. Probably more total weapons and ammunition came from the fallen regime in Libya than supplied from the west.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 48, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1967 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 45):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists.

and new ones will most likely arise unfortunetly ....

The more we keep meddling in other countries business the more this will go on.

More dead in Algeria according to RT

Seven hostages, 11 kidnappers killed during ‘final assault’ on Algerian gas plant – state news
The 'final assault' by Algerian troops on a gas plant seized by militants has resulted in the deaths of seven hostages and 11 kidnappers. The militants reportedly summarily executed their captives as troops tried to free them.
"It is over now, the assault is over, and the military are inside the plant clearing it of mines," Reuters quoted a local source as saying.

more:
http://rt.com/news/mali-militants-siege-algeria-300/

Not over. It will happen again for some other reason iin some other country until we leave them alone and decide to mind our own business at home.
We've got enough to rectify within our own borders.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 49, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 48):
Not over. It will happen again for some other reason iin some other country until we leave them alone and decide to mind our own business at home.

You mean if we leave the peaceful majority in the hands of the radicals ? That worked so well in Afghanistan, and indeed Mali, not to mention Somalia, Rwanda, etc.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
Also remember that many tons of high quality weapons of the Gaddafi secret police and military units were 'liberated' by such groups. Probably more total weapons and ammunition came from the fallen regime in Libya than supplied from the west.

A while back I read a book about the AK-47 rifle and its various social and military consequences. I never finished it, it was much too meandering in its narrative, but one thing it did mention is that the Warsaw Pact states absolutely hoarded various weapons and ammunition. While Gaddafi didn't have their ideology, he might well have shared their paranoia, being a marginalized, militarized state.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 51, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 49):
if we leave the peaceful majority in the hands of the radicals

Total nonsense.

We helped those same radicals, rebels and freedom fighters in many cases, ousting Saddam, Khadafi and Mubarak just to name a few.

Mega-fail in each and every case it seems.

oh... and I forget all the anti-Assad radical groups trying to destabilize Syria's President and the whole country.

The trouble is that we will do so again any chance that is given.
If there are resources to plunder or money/interest to be won there will be no hesitation what so ever.

I am sick and tired of this under the cover neo-colonialism.

We need to get the hell out of other countries and mind our own business at home within our own borders.

 Wow!

[Edited 2013-01-19 08:30:33]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 52, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 51):
We need to get the hell out of other countries and mind our own business at home within our own borders.

But when terrorists come to our own shores we have to act. When refugees arrive by the bucket-load we should act. When we see human rights being seriously violated we should act. I'm not saying that everything we have done is right, but it's never as easy as just saying that we should always just 'mind our own business'.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 53, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
'bungled raid'

latest reports say that almost 600 hostages could be rescued but that around 30 died. There were approximately 500 Algerians among the hostages.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 54, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 51):
Mubarak just to name a few.

That was a cock-up, the devil we knew was much better than the devil we got.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 55, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 49):
leave the peaceful majority in the hands of the radicals ?

The majority is NOT in the hands of the radicals. But the west should quit supporting the radicals and should rather support leaders like Hosni Mubarak and Abidine Ben Ali.

Mr Hollande has now gone to the support of the Bamako government. A government which possibly is not abreast in regard to human rights, but needs support against radicalists.

Look at Iraq. Mr al-Takriti was a brutal dictator, but after his departure, freedom of the people got reduced, most of all the freedom of religion. The second parliamentary elections reduced the power of the conservatives and brought back some freedom.

You may remember how heavily the west supported Ayatollah Khomeiny against Reza Shah Pahlavi


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 56, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 51):
We helped those same radicals, rebels and freedom fighters in many cases, ousting Saddam, Khadafi and Mubarak just to name a few.

For Saddam the error was made during the first Gulf War when we stopped helping and let him crush the rebellion. Toppling him during operation Iraqi freedom after that was a very risky move.

Gaddafi was a crazy dude who was shelling his own country, but also propping up rebels in neighboring countries. When you say toppling him helped radicals, it's misleading, since he was already helping them. The average Libyan is not a radical, they rather enjoy the money they get from us buying their oil, and are educated too.

Egypt, well so far there is more democracy than before, and nothing really bad has happened, though if the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't succeed in liberalizing the economy I don't see things going in the right direction, but it's not like it was under Mubarak.

Dictatorships are unstable by definition, Assad and Gaddafi seemed to have understood that and were supposedly modernizing their country before the Arab spring, but in practice nothing was moving.

As for resources, well, call me when you're ready to stop using oil, I seem to remember you quite like flying and cruises.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 57, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1892 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 55):
But the west should quit supporting the radicals and should rather support leaders like Hosni Mubarak and Abidine Ben Ali.

That's the best way to breed upset people intend to attack us.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 58, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 56):

To say the French intervention in Mali is hypocritical is the second biggest understatement of the 21st century. The official line is that France is raining holy terror down on Mali now to smoke out the Islamic extremists who are threatening (according to the French) to overrun Africa...and perhaps Europe as well. The narrative is that at least one of the three partners in the Malian Islamist alliance—Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)—has designated France as “a prime target for attack.” As Pepe Escobar of the Asia Times point out, however, this is the same AQIM that in 2007 merged with the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) that France was funding, equipping, supplying, training and providing air cover for in the 2011 invasion of Libya.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 59, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

More details became known
> 23 hostages and 32 extremists became killed
> 685 Algerian employees were rescued alive
> 107 foreign employees were rescued alive

So that the operation was successful ! The Algerian government made it clear that Algeria is NOT to yield to terrrists and their demands

Quoting Aesma (Reply 57):
But the west should quit supporting the radicals and should rather support leaders like Hosni Mubarak and Abidine Ben Ali.

That's the best way to breed upset people intend to attack us.

The more or less direct support, the West defacto gave to the extremists HAS bred terrorism repeatedly. And to protect extremists wanted by their governments proved wrong repeatedly.

It is not without reason, that Algeria, which since Bouteflika became President has had more democracy than most other Arab countries (except Lebanon), has once again come under attack.

True, nothing was made public about how many extremists were arrested alive, but the vast size of the operation allows to guess that it must have been 100 or more. Sure, they most certainly now are questioned by the methods started in Algiers by Mr Jean-Marie lePen and Maréchal Lattre de Tassigny (who stood for "Liberté et Grandeur") in the 1950ies


User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Not really, as the issue is whether they should have accepted help with a raid - that's not negotiating.

There was no time! The militants were already rolling hostages out of the plant in SUVs across the desert. If they escaped unchallenged those hostages could have been held captive for years! As has already been demonstrated in North and East Africa.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
While Algeria may have some experience of this sort of thing, I struggle to believe their armed forces would be as well-resourced or experienced of those the UK or US may have helped with.

Since when has the US or UK been required to be involved in every conflict overseas involving their civilian citizens?

In fact. Send a bullshit empty state department release and a fucking drone and call it a day. Victoria Nuland can spout off all day and the DoD will send an unarmed drone to provide live video. Typical Washington bullshit. It's not like the US really cared in the first place. I believe in putting your money where your mouth is.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 61, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
> 685 Algerian employees were rescued alive

They were not rescued, but allowed to go by the terrorists. The terrorists was only interested in foreigners.


User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 62, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
I can't believe how incredibly hazy the reporting actually is on this in our media in the UK.

The reporting is still fucked up.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Not really, as the issue is whether they should have accepted help with a raid

Exactly why should they?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well the operation wasn't rushed per se, TV news here said that it's the terrorists that attempted to escape with the hostages, precipitating the response.

That, of course, would certainly put a different slant on things if true.

It is true. And what would you rather see? Old, greying, malnutritioned western hostages in North Africa in 2016 still begging for their freedom...while western governments have moved on...and really dont give a fuck.

There is a reason for the Algerian military moving so fast.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):

The operation was precipitated because the terrorists attempted boarding buses with the hostages for transporting them God nows where. That is why rockets launched from helicopters were used. To destroy the buses or trucks. It´s not like the Algerians rushed anything. They had no choice.

A more pointed question would be why Western governments did not warn their citizens in that part of the world of possible consequences after the Mali operation started by France. I heard that today over 600 ex-pats were evacuated from the region into Palma.

As for negotiating. There is no negotiating with these animals.

Thank you! {thumbs up}

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):

While that is true, it came at a horrific cost: more than 50,000 dead, GIA,Algerian forces, and mostly civilians.

So what? The Algerians have been fighting this shit for decades. How rich for some elitist bastard westerner to come in and tell them what to do. When it is their gas fields, their economy, their national security, and their government and safe keeping for their domestic citizens.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):

Al Jazeera reports that the US is being careful not to be seen as sending in any troops to avoid giving the "impression of invading another Muslim-majority nation". While the US may have "offered help", if the report is true, this may have been limited to technical advice rather than personnel engaged directly in carrying out a rescue mission.

Frankly. I believe the US CIA already has ground troops in Algeria in a supportive role. Only, those are unreported because they are clandestine. They had them in Libya....months....months, before Qaddafi was even in danger of falling.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):

Face it: if you get taken hostage by terrorits in a country like Algeria or Russia, you are essentially toast and just a political pawn to be sacrifised if necessary.-

  

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
Also remember that many tons of high quality weapons of the Gaddafi secret police and military units were 'liberated' by such groups. Probably more total weapons and ammunition came from the fallen regime in Libya than supplied from the west.

And why did this exactly happen? Because Europe, NATO, and the US decided to get rid of Gaddafi. Well shit like that has residual effects doesn't it? Just like getting rid of Saddam in '03 was so easy LOL. And OMG there was no power vacuum in the presence of errant weapons...

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 53):
Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
'bungled raid'

latest reports say that almost 600 hostages could be rescued but that around 30 died. There were approximately 500 Algerians among the hostages.

This is the whole point. How can anyone say this operation was bungled...critics never even got a chance to review the facts! Most of the hostages were freed! And if you are so crass as to only count "westerners" as those who matter, most of them were freed too!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 54):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 51):
Mubarak just to name a few.

That was a cock-up, the devil we knew was much better than the devil we got.

Just like Libya.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 56):

Gaddafi was a crazy dude who was shelling his own country, but also propping up rebels in neighboring countries. When you say toppling him helped radicals, it's misleading, since he was already helping them. The average Libyan is not a radical, they rather enjoy the money they get from us buying their oil, and are educated too.

Egypt, well so far there is more democracy than before, and nothing really bad has happened, though if the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't succeed in liberalizing the economy I don't see things going in the right direction, but it's not like it was under Mubarak.

This is all bullshit what you have posted. I am no apologist for Gaddafi or Mubarak. But both of those countries were far better off before the Arab Spring. Tourism alone is down by far. Many average citizens enjoyed a better life during their dictators than during this horrible transition period. That is for another thread.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 63, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1788 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 62):
I am no apologist for Gaddafi or Mubarak. But both of those countries were far better off before the Arab Spring. Tourism alone is down by far. Many average citizens enjoyed a better life during their dictators than during this horrible transition period. That is for another thread.

+ 100%

I recommend our friend Aesma that he books his next holidays touring Libya and Egypt so he can see for himself how wonderful these places have become since after Gaddafi and Mubarak were toppled.

Paradise on Earth. No doubt.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1775 times:
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Watching French television news, I saw someone introduced as an expert on Algerian law-and-order and terrorism explain that when Algeria says they don't negotiate with terrorists, what they really mean is, they don't even talk beyond "surrender or else..."

While other countries, notably the US and the UK, seem to complain that they were not given the opportunity to get involved, the French government, on the other hand, seems to be backing Algeria.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7702 posts, RR: 21
Reply 65, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
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Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 62):
This is the whole point. How can anyone say this operation was bungled...critics never even got a chance to review the facts! Most of the hostages were freed! And if you are so crass as to only count "westerners" as those who matter, most of them were freed too!
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 62):

The reporting is still fucked up.

This is the basis for my initial reaction - which I accept was wrong in many respects. It was reported in a very hazy and distorted way indeed.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 62):
Exactly why should they?

This should be pretty self-explanatory. Having better resources at your disposal in such a crisis should be a no-brainer.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 66, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
True, nothing was made public about how many extremists were arrested alive, but the vast size of the operation allows to guess that it must have been 100 or more. Sure, they most certainly now are questioned by the methods started in Algiers by Mr Jean-Marie lePen and Maréchal Lattre de Tassigny (who stood for "Liberté et Grandeur") in the 1950ies

From the start, the number of attackers was estimated at 30 to 40, no more.
Marshall de Lattre de Tassigny was never involved in Algeria and he left the army in '51.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1744 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 63):
I recommend our friend Aesma that he books his next holidays touring Libya and Egypt so he can see for himself how wonderful these places have become since after Gaddafi and Mubarak were toppled.

Paradise on Earth. No doubt.

Egypt was (and still mainly is) a military dictatorship where you can't do anything without the military's direct approval. Indeed any soldier can be more successful in life than doctors and lawyers. Unemployment was through the roof under Mubarak. That didn't prevent radicals to cause terror by the way, and I had no intention to go there under Mubarak.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
True, nothing was made public about how many extremists were arrested alive, but the vast size of the operation allows to guess that it must have been 100 or more

Far less most likely. The complex is huge and there was no way the terrorist group could have taken over that plant without help. They have most likely gotten inside help, getting past the millitary installation with 100's of soldiers on their way there and attacked it at a most vounrable time. Proabably no more than 30 maybe 40 terorists. From what I understand they used explosives to secure themselves.



* 5 Norwegians still unaccounted for

* One Norwegian crawled through the dessert for 15 hours with splints in his legs before he got help.

[Edited 2013-01-20 06:41:07]

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 69, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 61):
> 685 Algerian employees were rescued alive

They were not rescued, but allowed to go by the terrorists. The terrorists was only interested in foreigners.

but 107 foreigners WERE rescued .....................................

Quoting iakobos (Reply 66):
From the start, the number of attackers was estimated at 30 to 40, no more.
Marshall de Lattre de Tassigny was never involved in Algeria and he left the army in '51.

It is well possible that all of the attackers got killed, which may explain why nobody mentions anything

Lattre de Tassigny left the Indochina army in 51 after the defeat of Dien Bien Phu, BUT famous journalist Peter Scholl-Latour saw the worthy maréchal in Algiers in the late 50ies when LdT was the local CIC. In other words he WAS involved in Algeria. And I tend to believe PSL


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 70, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1693 times:
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Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 69):
It is well possible that all of the attackers got killed, which may explain why nobody mentions anything

5 survived and are in custody. 3 escaped.



MGGS
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

The Algerian employees weren't the main targets but I wouldn't say they were not hostages, they couldn't leave, were threatened, were used as human shields...


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 72, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 70):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 69):
It is well possible that all of the attackers got killed, which may explain why nobody mentions anything

5 survived and are in custody. 3 escaped.

Alright, this explains a lot. The 3 escaped irritate those in charge on the army side. To MISquote the words of William Tecumseh Sherman "only dead terrorists are good terrorists"

Quoting Aesma (Reply 71):
The Algerian employees weren't the main targets but I wouldn't say they were not hostages, they couldn't leave, were threatened, were used as human shields...

-
the Algerian employees were essential targets as a kind of cannon fother. Would you btw. love not to be allowed to leave but to be used as cannon fother ? The troopies involved here were NOT the French soldiers of the 1950ies .... and so regarded the rescue of the Algerian hostages as relevant


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 73, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 69):
Lattre de Tassigny left the Indochina army in 51 after the defeat of Dien Bien Phu, BUT famous journalist Peter Scholl-Latour saw the worthy maréchal in Algiers in the late 50ies when LdT was the local CIC. In other words he WAS involved in Algeria. And I tend to believe PSL

Must have been his ghost then because he died in January 52 and had national funerals.
Always good to know there is another life after this one.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 74, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Which is when you send in professionals to put bullets in their heads in a proficient military manner.

Exactly. And when the US and UK offer to do it for you, you accept.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

According to the Minister of foreign affairs of Norway and the Norwegian inteligence agency, the Norwegian government has had alot more insight of what has happend than what they could say in public ( Needless to say, really ). Apparently the terrorists set the plant on fire and were about to blow up the entire plant , but something went wrong and they only started a small fire. Then they started executing hostages and thats when the Algerian specialforces went in.

The Foreign Minister also explained that Norwegian authorities early known facts about what happened Thursday when Algerian authorities targeted a group of terrorists carrying hostages.

These cars, as many have supposed was the way out of the facility, was on the contrary, on the way from the housing complex to gas production. The terrorists wanted to gather in a big group, because the Algerians had cut the power and made it difficult for them to be in two seperate groups.

The leader of the group of terrorists therefore wanted to move the hostages over to the main group.

- The Algerian authorities did not allow this because they believed that it would be a huge disadvantage if they got the hostages all together .

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.10878911

[Edited 2013-01-20 13:44:04]

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 76, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 73):
his ghost then because he died in January 52 and had national funerals.

Oh indeed, his ghost and my fault ! But his last assignment was to Algeria, just after the time in Indochina. Also the role of Mr LePen is disputable. Some discrbie him as Colonel and others say that he was just a captain. Whatever, in Algeria both are hated persons historically


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 77, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Exactly. And when the US and UK offer to do it for you, you accept.

If even one hostage had died there would be outrage in the country. Can you imagine the situation in reverse ? I even give you a French or UK team instead of an Algerian one, intervening in the US. That would never fly.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3313 posts, RR: 35
Reply 78, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 76):
But his last assignment was to Algeria, just after the time in Indochina.

That is history according to you, History shows that de Lattre came back from Indochina after the death of his son in 51, fell sick and quickly died. No Algeria whatsoever.

JM Le Pen was a second lieutenant in Indochina (1st para battalion French Legion) and was in Algeria for 2 months in mid 56, just after the Suez affair. Hardly enough to become a "historically hated person".


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 79, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

While his fighting in Algeria didn't make Le Pen famous, he wasn't anybody either, he was a member of the National Assembly when he voluntarily reenlisted to go fight. And of course to this day he still says that Algeria should have stayed French, not a way to make friends over there !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 80, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Why are we even talking about a monster like Le Pen?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 77):
That would never fly.

It wouldn't be necessary.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14003 posts, RR: 62
Reply 81, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 75):
According to the Minister of foreign affairs of Norway and the Norwegian inteligence agency, the Norwegian government has had alot more insight of what has happend than what they could say in public ( Needless to say, really ). Apparently the terrorists set the plant on fire and were about to blow up the entire plant , but something went wrong and they only started a small fire. Then they started executing hostages and thats when the Algerian specialforces went in.

Not just this. Northern Mali is basically a lawless region where the guy with the biggest gun rules.
About three years ago an Austrian couple were kidnapped while driving with their Landrover through the Southern Tunisian desert, in a region which was considered to be safe up to then. The kidnappers demanded that the Austrian government should excert pressure on Tunisia and Algeria to release Islamist terrorist prisoners. The hostages were also quickly brought across the borders into Mali. AFAIK, they are still in the hands of their kidnappers.
Since the Algerian forces cannot legally operate in Mali, and since Mali´s army and police are even less equipped and trained for hostage rescue and since northern Mali is waste (bigger than Texas), they HAD to stop the terrorists before they could reach the border.
For internal consumption the Algerian military also HAD to act tough in this matter and they HAD to do it by themselves and not call the big brothers to help them.
The main thing for them was that the terrorists either surrender unconditionally or get killed. Rescue of hostages was secondary.

Jan


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 82, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1574 times:
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While the official discourse by the Algerian government is that they do not negotiate, some sources are saying that they made a one time offer to the terrorists, due to pressure from governments with citizens involved: "Leave without hostages and exit the country through the same borders you came in. You have safe passage"

But the terrorists rejected that and said they were going to blow up the plant.



MGGS
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 83, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 82):
But the terrorists rejected that and said they were going to blow up the plant.

And a country like Algeria which makes most of its export revenue through hydrocarbons, and has a formidable and ruthless military will not for a second let terrorists hijack their hydrocarbon resources or domestic security.



oh boy!!!
User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2437 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1558 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Exactly. And when the US and UK offer to do it for you, you accept.

Typical elitist westerner view of events. Colonists....



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1817 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 81):
The main thing for them was that the terrorists either surrender unconditionally or get killed. Rescue of hostages was secondary.

That's it. The message to the any future kidnappers was "Here in Algeria our gas plants are a serious business, foreigners willing to work in Algerian plants are every bit as expendable as our own nationals".

And sadly they are, I doubt any company will pull out their Algerian gas fields for this.


User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 819 posts, RR: 1
Reply 86, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

The UK resident mentioned among the dead, was a Colombian national, who worked as an expat in London for BP and who graduated from school together with me. May his Soul rest in peace and his wife two young daughters find comfort in this terrible tragedy.

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 87, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 73):
he died in January 52 and had national funerals.

In that case I have to apologize. I apparently mixed him up with another general. My mistake simply.

A bit confusing are the details about LePen. The man WAS definitely in Algiers, but while some say he was a Colonel, others say that he just was a Captain

Bad in regard to the present affair is that they obviously found more dead people when doing a serious search. The count is now above 60, and may end up towards 100 .


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 88, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1463 times:
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Very interesting article. It gives hard numbers and a lot of details. It´s in Spanish, but you can get the idea.

http://internacional.elpais.com/inte.../actualidad/1358778463_277524.html



MGGS
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 89, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1462 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.

But they have almost certainly trained with both.

All attempts by various forces around the globe to rescue hostages usually resulted in a serious numbers of casualties

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 48):
The militants reportedly summarily executed their captives as troops tried to free them.

They of course tried to execute them, but did not succeed. Even if the apparent number of casualties is now somewhere between 60 and 80

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 59):
> 685 Algerian employees were rescued alive
> 107 foreign employees were rescued alive

-
This in military terms is a "success". But tell this to families and friends of those who died. . But at the other hand, the Algerian army had no alternative than to act, and to act swiftly and with determination. I cannot quite see what some Western governments had in mind. To give some millions of Dollars to the terrorists, enabling them to claim victory and buy more and better weapons ?

And let's be clear, the Algerian employees WERE also targets as the whole operation was also a demonstration against the Algerian government.

By the size of the affair, it is obvious to me that the action of the army had the approval of both State President Abdelaziz Bouteflika and the Supreme Command of the military forces. In close conjunction with the Mukhaberat (Service de Sureté Nationale) who now most clearly have taken over the interrogation and investigation.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

According to the Norwegian minister of defence, Norwegian Special Forces was put on high alert and asked to prepare for deployment . However Algeria did not ask for help

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 89):
To give some millions of Dollars to the terrorists, enabling them to claim victory and buy more and better weapons ?

Ofcourse not. The west proabably wanted to "negotiate" to stall the situation. Get more time to get enough info and overview of the situation at hand for a possible deployment of specialforces on to the scene. No one has said anything about paying money.

[Edited 2013-01-22 16:07:44]

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7293 posts, RR: 5
Reply 91, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 64):
what they really mean is, they don't even talk beyond "surrender or else..."

That's the way it should be, no pussy footing around, just kill the bastards, very uch the Russian way of doing things.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 69):

but 107 foreigners WERE rescued .....................................

Which is a lot better than no foreigners being rescued, surprised that some haven't worked this out.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 90):
Norwegian Special Forces was put on high alert and asked to prepare for deployment . However Algeria did not ask for help

If you're the President of Algeria and you have the option to ask for help who you gonna call, I know my first choice would be Hereford not Bergan. I know they might be ok but if you have the option stick with the best.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1312 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 91):
If you're the President of Algeria and you have the option to ask for help who you gonna call, I know my first choice would be Hereford not Bergan. I know they might be ok but if you have the option stick with the best.

It's dangerous to say "the best" about anyone. No one is invincible.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7890 posts, RR: 52
Reply 93, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1294 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 91):
very uch the Russian way of doing things.

They have a nasty habit of killing too many people lol... (civilians included)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 94, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 90):
To give some millions of Dollars to the terrorists, enabling them to claim victory and buy more and better weapons ?

Ofcourse not. The west proabably wanted to "negotiate" to stall the situation. Get more time to get enough info and overview of the situation at hand for a possible deployment of specialforces on to the scene

- to stall the situation was NOT an option to the Algerian government
- enough info WAS available
- any deployment of "special forces" would have been noted by the extremists, which would have meant at least 250 people dead
- actions by all such special forces result in more than 10% of hostages dead, which is the same or worse of what was achieved
- swift action was the requirement and NOT a stallmate


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3887 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 94):
- to stall the situation was NOT an option to the Algerian government

We did'nt really know that in the beginning, when the terrorist first took control of the plant.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 94):
- any deployment of "special forces" would have been noted by the extremists, which would have meant at least 250 people dead
- actions by all such special forces result in more than 10% of hostages dead, which is the same or worse of what was achieved
- swift action was the requirement and NOT a stallmate

A full frontal assault is considered by most proffecional soldiers to be the last option and with the most losses.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 96, posted (1 year 7 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1194 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 95):
We did'nt really know that in the beginning, when the terrorist first took control of the plant.

-
Neither did the Algerian government. But they faced realities very swiftly, and for sure not with enthusiasm. The results of similar operations launched by other Arab (and Israeli) forces were/are so bad that they had to fear the worst. The result now with clearly less than 80 dead victims is tragic but clearly a relative "success"

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 95):
A full frontal assault is considered by most proffecional soldiers to be the last option and with the most losses.

-
and exactly THIS would have been the result of the "import" of any foreign "specialists" . So that there were just three options
-- allow a stalemate with all advantages for the terrorists = rubbish
-- import of so-called "foreign" specialists and frontal assault = catastrophe
-- immediate action as done = fairly good result
>>> the third approach resulted like any military operation did and does and will, which means with losses


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