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Briton Gets Death Sentence For Drug Smuggling  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3158 times:

A British national, Lindsay Sandiford, has been sentenced to death in Bali for smuggling nearly 5kg of cocaine into Indonesia. Although it was of course known that Indonesia can impose the death penalty for drug importation, the sentence was hugely unexpected, not least because the prosecution had only sought 15 years imprisonment.

Her defence has involved many factors, from claims of threats against her family to force her into smuggling, to evidence presented suggesting that she was vulnerable to exploitation due to a history of mental illness.

I am opposed to the death penalty in principle. However, I am far from swayed by the defence claims, and the fact is that she was essentially caught red-handed. If you are going to smuggle drugs into a country with the death penalty for that offence, I guess you should be prepared to face that penalty.

The UK government has of course, as a staunch opponent of the death penalty, strongly condemned the sentence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21137649

So, where do you stand on the sentence?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6351 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days ago) and read 3152 times:
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I am against the death penalty. But I also respect the laws of other countries. I also think that the harshness of the sentence has to do with the fact that it wasn´t a few grams she was smuggling. Five kg of cocaine is A LOT.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2111 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Well, always sad to see archaic modes of punishment. Then again, it's well known that you risk your life if you smuggle drugs in Asia. With 5kg, she pretty much had it coming.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 2):
Well, always sad to see archaic modes of punishment. Then again, it's well known that you risk your life if you smuggle drugs in Asia. With 5kg, she pretty much had it coming.

Yup. What do you make of the defence claims of coercion?

Here is an article from The Independent which makes the argument that most drug mules are merely the pawns of traffickers, who should be treated leniently. It further claims that 'most' are coerced into it somehow.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...8427027.html?origin=internalSearch

I disagree with much of this. What say you?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

Are those policies any better at fighting drug abuse in those countries ?


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):

So, where do you stand on the sentence?

She did the crime, so her punishment is fitting. How do they execute people in Indonesia?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
I am opposed to the death penalty in principle. However, I am far from swayed by the defence claims, and the fact is that she was essentially caught red-handed. If you are going to smuggle drugs into a country with the death penalty for that offence, I guess you should be prepared to face that penalty.

I am the same way. I see stuff all the time I think is way too harsh but you really have to ask how they didn't see it coming. I disagree with the National Guard soldiers at Kent State but you have to ask the protesters "come on, do you really think it was smart to throw rocks at guys with guns?"

I do sense that maybe this is being used as an example since the prosecution only wanted 15 years. Hopefully she's not being treated unfairly. I'm against the death penalty too, but if they are going to use it, I hope it's at least used consistently.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFaddyPainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
How do they execute people in Indonesia?

Firing Squad in this instance.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
She did the crime, so her punishment is fitting. How do they execute people in Indonesia?

She is sentenced to death by firing squad.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
I do sense that maybe this is being used as an example since the prosecution only wanted 15 years

That is quite possibly so. It seems to be the case that many people sentenced to death in Indonesia never actually have the sentence carried out, so it may be that at some point there is a commution. On the other hand, if they are really hell-bent on setting that example they may carry the punishment through.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 177 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

I have no compassion for this woman. She should have known the risks by bringing in 5kg of coke. Idiot.

I would like to see the return of physical punishment here in the USA. I think that if a drug dealer, a thief, a burglar, etc. knew that if they were caught and convicted and that their punishment would be 100 lashes with a cane, they may rethink their line of work. And if they still entered their preferred life of crime I bet they would soon reach out to a different occupation after the first time they were caned. Screw prison, the first conviction gets you 50 lashes, the second conviction gets you 100 lashes, and the 3rd gets you 200 plus time in the big house.

Wishful thinking...



Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

I believe that there should be an opportunity for commutation if the prisoner work with police & customs officers, identifying their supplier and the operation they were involved in.

Otherwise it should be no surprise that there is a death penalty, and that it is carried out.


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3502 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2911 times:
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In Singapore you face the death penalty if you carry more that 12 g of drugs, 5 Kilos is a lot. BTW it is written in the entrance form passengers fill in most all countries in SE Asia that you face the death penalty for drug smuggling, so she was warned, her problem.


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2901 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
In Singapore you face the death penalty if you carry more that 12 g of drugs, 5 Kilos is a lot. BTW it is written in the entrance form passengers fill in most all countries in SE Asia that you face the death penalty for drug smuggling, so she was warned, her problem.

That always makes me laugh. It's kind of too late by the time you get to the form-filling stage for immigration. Are you supposed to own up straight away to avoid the death penalty?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

I agree with the sentiments. I vehemently oppose the War on Drugs and I think that killing someone for mere possession of a substance that cannot harm an innocent bystander (it's not an explosive or a potent nerve gas or a biological agent) is absolute moral corruption.

That said, countries like Indonesia make no secret of the fact that the penalty for drug smuggling is death. Don't like it? Don't go there. And most CERTAINLY don't smuggle drugs there.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2298 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

They're stupid.

Both her and the people in Indonesia who uphold the death penalty for this crime.

Death penalty IMO can only even be a thing to consider in 2 cases (as in, a coherent argument can be made, not that I necessarily support it): murder (this includes war crimes/crimes against humanity) and aggravated rape.

These countries are taking it too far. However, this fact is well known, and therefore, this course of events could have been expected.


User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

I agree with the sentiments. I vehemently oppose the War on Drugs and I think that killing someone for mere possession of a substance that cannot harm an innocent bystander (it's not an explosive or a potent nerve gas or a biological agent) is absolute moral corruption.

What if these drugs somehow found themselves in the hands of children, say parents who have OD'd? E.g. Children think its sweets/sugar whatever, takes some, dies. They would be innocent bystanders. What about vulnerable people? In some African countries, some drug lords forcibly inject drugs into young woman, to get them hooked. They need the drugs but can't afford it so the drug lord makes them work as prostitutes. Drugs ruin innocent lives.

A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12628 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2789 times:
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Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 9):
I think that if a drug dealer, a thief, a burglar, etc. knew that if they were caught and convicted and that their punishment would be 100 lashes with a cane, they may rethink their line of work.

Well, the death penalty is certainly not a deterrent against murder, so why do you think this would work?

I main issue I have with this whole situation is that it's the drug mules that get punished, not the real criminals. Most drug mules have been coerced in some way to carry the drugs.

I completely oppose the death penalty, so hope that her punishment is reduced on appeal.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineHywel From Uganda, joined Apr 2008, 802 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

I agree with the sentiments. I vehemently oppose the War on Drugs and I think that killing someone for mere possession of a substance that cannot harm an innocent bystander (it's not an explosive or a potent nerve gas or a biological agent) is absolute moral corruption.

That said, countries like Indonesia make no secret of the fact that the penalty for drug smuggling is death. Don't like it? Don't go there. And most CERTAINLY don't smuggle drugs there.

Couldn't have written it better myself!


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8725 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
So, where do you stand on the sentence?

In the same place as always: the death penalty is barbarian and executions are murder.

Whenever this repugnant practice comes into play, the crime committed takes a backseat to the state-sponsored homicide. Shame on the judge, not even the prosecution demanded this despicable sentence.

[Edited 2013-01-22 15:00:13]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2771 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):
Drugs ruin innocent lives.

So does alcohol. So does tobacco. So do cars. So does cholesterol. So do airplanes. So do trains. So do bicycles. So do guns. So do knives. So do electrical appliances. So do bathtubs.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 19):
So does alcohol. So does tobacco. So do cars. So does cholesterol. So do airplanes. So do trains. So do bicycles. So do guns. So do knives. So do electrical appliances. So do bathtubs.

Drugs are inherently more dangerous, and fund other criminal activities.



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2111 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 20):
Drugs are inherently more dangerous, and fund other criminal activities.

So do bathtubs.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 20):
and fund other criminal activities.

To be fair, it's because they are illegal. If you made tobacco illegal, I think you'd see it turn into a 'dangerous drug.' I'm ok with banning a drug that really only causes the user to commit mayhem and harm others, but if it's only harming yourself, go for it. I also don't want to get hung up on technicalities like "what if someone smokes a lot of weed and goes driving" because in that case, we really need to ban alcohol because people abuse that and do stupid things with it and it's legal



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2714 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 21):
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 20):
Drugs are inherently more dangerous, and fund other criminal activities.

So do bathtubs.

      

That absolutely cracked me up!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
we really need to ban alcohol because people abuse that and do stupid things with it and it's legal

Not to mention, alcohol funded plenty of criminal activity.....when it was illegal. Is there a connection there?

And I'm much more afraid of electrocuting myself than of OD'ing on whatever drug. I wouldn't necessarily make the case that drugs are inherently more dangerous than electricity, or than driving. Or than food, if we're talking about heart disease and such.

Anyway....



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2142 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

What is especially disturbing in this case is that the prosecution recommended jailing her 15 years and that Sandiford cooperated with the police to catch other drug couriers, who got all got relatively light sentences.

ABC news



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
So, where do you stand on the sentence?

Too harsh, even though I'm pro-death penalty. She doesn't deserve the sentence imposed.

Deport her and let her go home. According to the article, the cops screwed up when they arrested her. This is pathetic all around.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5671 posts, RR: 6
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

I'm not completely against the death penalty, although I do think it should only be used on the most depraved of murderers. Low level drug mules? Gimme a break.

Do I feel sorry for her? Not really, because she's the idiot that smuggled drugs into a country that is known for executing drug smugglers.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
I disagree with the National Guard soldiers at Kent State but you have to ask the protesters "come on, do you really think it was smart to throw rocks at guys with guns?"

Don't believe for one second that they didn't know what they were doing. It's no different than what the Occutards are doing now: baiting the police and catching the retaliation on camera, and editing it so that it looks like it was an unprovoked assault on peaceful protesters.

Thank goodness their video editing skills are crappy.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 20):
Drugs are inherently more dangerous, and fund other criminal activities.

No offense, but you bought hard into the DARE propaganda. There are dozens of drugs far more "dangerous" than cocaine, and they're perfectly legal.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 24):


Which I find stupid. What incentive is there for drug mules to cooperate if they're just as likely to face the death penalty?



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

And people complain about the drug law penalties in the USA ! Still I do have a problem with a death penalty for 'mueling' drugs, it should be for the dealers and cartel leaders they work for. A foreign drug mule with such a quantity of such drugs entering the USA would most likely get 25+ years although deals could be done to reduce that sentence by dragging in their masters and at the end of their sentence deportation and a ban on ever getting a Visa again.

We are all aware of he financial need, including seeking to get out of debt, as a way to get into a country for work as well as extortion by drug bosses that push many to mule drugs. Too many will take the chance thinking they will be one to get away with it, some will be set up to be caught so others don't.

I am not sure if a UK citizen needs a Visa to enter Indonesia, but if they do, perhaps those officials that issue Visas for that (and other countries) need to be more careful in that process. Maybe there needs to be stricter financial checks to keep out poor and in debt people as well as an educational requirement and even testing of it, to bring out important cultural and legal issues, including drug crime penalties, prior to getting a Visa.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

I am in agreement with you.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
a history of mental illness

This should be her get out of jail free card, if this can indeed be proved then its quite possible she should not be entirely responsible for her actions.

However, from the BBC article, it seems the whole family is in a bit of a mess and she was doing this to raise cash to pay off debts. If you are sane enough to raise a family and come up with such a plan and follow through with it, while not wanting to underestimate mental illness in any way whatsoever, I have my doubts she is such a simpleton as to be oblivious as to what she was getting into or the consequences thereof and any mental problems were possibly breakdown related to her circumstances, not a pre-existing mental condition. If she is tested now, you bet she has signs of some mental problems facing a firing squad when expecting 15 years behind bars...



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2509 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):
No offense, but you bought hard into the DARE propaganda. There are dozens of drugs far more "dangerous" than cocaine, and they're perfectly legal.

I was talking about drugs in general. I never mentioned cocaine. I am against illegal substances fully, and support strong punishments for those wishing to partake in them in any sense.

Quoting Rara (Reply 21):
So do bathtubs.

Bathtubs have legitimate rational uses, illegal substances for recreational purposes do not. This is a terrible counter argument.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):
That absolutely cracked me up!

If you found that comment funny, you must be very easily amused and have no real judgment of good comedy.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
To be fair, it's because they are illegal.

That's not the point, drugs ARE illegal so DO cause problems.

Regards,
A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 177 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Well, the death penalty is certainly not a deterrent against murder, so why do you think this would work?

The death penalty does not deter murder because it is not swiflty enforced. You have a better chance passing away from old age than by execution when you are on death row. Speed the appeals and punishment process up to months, not years and you may see a difference.

If a drug mule, dealer, etc were caned word would get out that it really hurts and isn't worth it. Physical pain is a great motivator to correct unwanted behavior.



Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2497 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):
What if these drugs somehow found themselves in the hands of children, say parents who have OD'd? E.g. Children think its sweets/sugar whatever, takes some, dies.

Then we should ban all pharmaceuticals, too, because that happens.

Illegal drugs, especially the dangerous ones, are usually not very active when swallowed. And they don't taste very good. It's very unlikely that a child would orally consume a large quantity of cocaine (HCl or free base), heroin, or amphetamines. These drugs do have oral activity, but the bioavailability is poor, so the dose is much higher.

The hallucinogens LSD, psylocybin, and mescaline are quite active orally, but the lethal doses are astronomical (tens to thousands of times the active dose). Cannabis is similar. To the best of my knowledge, fatal overdose of cannabis has never been reported in a human.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2488 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 30):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 23):
That absolutely cracked me up!

If you found that comment funny, you must be very easily amused and have no real judgment of good comedy.

Well now I'm offended!

But I've realized you might be correct. This comment is much funnier:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 30):
Bathtubs have legitimate rational uses, illegal substances for recreational purposes do not. This is a terrible counter argument.

  

But I guess I missed the part where the thread transitioned to personal attacks.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 30):
That's not the point, drugs ARE illegal so DO cause problems.

So make them legal, and all problems go away. At least, that's the obvious analysis from your cause and effect. Which is obviously not correct, as perfectly legal items cause problems as well, like....alcohol and cigarettes.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Then we should ban all pharmaceuticals, too, because that happens.

If you are taking pharmaceuticals then it's for medical reasons. And the way your argument goes, you have basically said it's safe to have illegal substances round children - don't even know what to say to that!

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
But I guess I missed the part where the thread transitioned to personal attacks.

That wasn't personal, and what an overreaction. I was pointing out you were laughing at something that clearly wasn't funny and was immature.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
So make them legal, and all problems go away. At least, that's the obvious analysis from your cause and effect. Which is obviously not correct, as perfectly legal items cause problems as well, like....alcohol and cigarettes.

How hard is it to see that I don't want illegal drugs legal at all, I wish they were eradicated off the face of the Earth. Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do. I thought most people would have been well familiar with how the Taliban used poppy fields to fund terrorism, for example.

Regards,
A user who is losing faith in the users on this site.



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 27):
What incentive is there for drug mules to cooperate if they're just as likely to face the death penalty?

That's easy.........( "If you don't tell us what we want to know, we will shoot you at 6:PM, TODAY"; "if you DO tell us what we want to know, we won't shoot you for at least 6 months". (99.9% will choose the latter "option")

But back to the female drug mule; I see it the same way as the guy Robert Blake used to play on TV; you know, the guy with the big white bird on his shoulder all the time....( Baretta ) ( I just remembered )......."If you can't do the time, better not do the crime"! (in this case "the time" is a date with a firing squad)

And for all the "doubters" that think execution doesn't "work"; It has been conclusively proven that NO muderer who has been executed for his / her crime, has EVER committed another one. And for those who insist that it's "cheaper" to lock 'em up for life, than to shoot 'em, I can assure you that won't be the case in Indonesia !

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
A user who is losing faith in the users on this site.

Don't take it personal. I wouldn't. Learned that lesson long ago when I first joined. Cut VikkyVik some slack here.... No harm, no foul.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):
What if these drugs somehow found themselves in the hands of children, say parents who have OD'd? E.g. Children think its sweets/sugar whatever, takes some, dies.

Then we should ban all pharmaceuticals, too, because that happens.

We should ban cars because people cannot be responsible when they get drunk or high then get behind the wheel. DUI's don't do much to deter much because people still do it.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2452 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Don't take it personal. I wouldn't. Learned that lesson long ago when I first joined. Cut VikkyVik some slack here.... No harm, no foul.

  

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
We should ban cars because people cannot be responsible when they get drunk or high then get behind the wheel. DUI's don't do much to deter much because people still do it.

I do think the illegal drugs which cause the most harm should remain illegal. No society needs crack cocaine or methamphetamine, or heroin, for example. In many respects I agree with many arguments about the war on drugs, and do certainly think that criminalising personal users is pretty futile. Addicts need treatment, not jail, although clearly people that go out robbing to fund their habits need both treatment and some form of criminal sanction. Ultimately though, the focus is all wrong.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2437 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
I was pointing out you were laughing at something that clearly wasn't funny and was immature.
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
That wasn't personal, and what an overreaction.
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 30):
you must be very easily amused and have no real judgment of good comedy.

When you say "you must be...", that pretty much defines a personal comment/attack. Senses of humor differ. I certainly don't care if you don't find it funny, so I'm not sure why you care that I do. And FYI, this:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
Well now I'm offended!

...was a joke. I'm not offended at all, nor am I overreacting.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
Cut VikkyVik some slack here.... No harm, no foul.

I appreciate it, to be sure, but I'm not sure why I need any slack cut. I only responded to a personal comment.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do.

I'm not convinced of that at all. Drunk driving? That's a huge issue. Liver disease, lung cancer, emphysema, COPD, heart disease, alcohol poisoning, etc., etc., etc. Alcohol and tobacco are so much more widespread than drugs, too.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2298 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do.

Funniest comment I've read on A.net. Beats flairport.

Hahahaha. Alcohol and cigarettes are actually drugs, no matter how much society might like getting pissed every weekend.

Look at the stats, dearie. Look at how many people tobacco kills (and I've never heard of a second hand cocaine snorter). Or alcohol... especially innocent people, as AirframeAS said below:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 36):
We should ban cars because people cannot be responsible when they get drunk or high then get behind the wheel. DUI's don't do much to deter much because people still do it.


[Edited 2013-01-23 15:20:15]

User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):

Please forgive me for not realising the 1st world problems caused by drinking and smoking you listed are more severe problems than issues like gang turf wars in Mexico, poppy fields funding terrorism or women in some African countries being made to work as prostitutes to payback their 'pimp' who got them forcibly hooked on drugs....
My mistake....



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2403 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 40):
1st world problems caused by drinking and smoking

Why would you assume those are solely 1st world problems?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
If you are taking pharmaceuticals then it's for medical reasons. And the way your argument goes, you have basically said it's safe to have illegal substances round children - don't even know what to say to that!

How about this: I'm a board-certified pediatrician and I know an AWFUL lot about this subject. I am NOT saying it is safe to have drugs, legal or otherwise, around children. I am saying that the majority of illegal drugs do not kill or severely harm children by mere ingestion.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do.

Really? Because when I was in medical school I lost count of the cases of emphyzema and cirrhosis caused by tobacco and cigarettes. Oddly, I saw very few cases of long-term problems being caused by cannabis use. I didn't even see that many chronic problems being caused by cocaine use, although I saw one (and only one) case of bacterial endocarditis caused by injecting heroin. Of course, the heroin itself isn't the culprit. If they could get clean drugs and clean needles and syringes, they wouldn't get bacterial endocarditis.

In fact the MOST DANGEROUS AND MOST ADDICTIVE DRUG IN THE WORLD is... tobacco. It clogs arteries. It destroys the body's reparative processes. It causes cancer in just about every tissue it touches. I have yet to see a drug cause more damage to society at large than tobacco. I'm here to tell ya, folks: tobacco is evil incarnate.

As for alcohol, I've watched it destroy lives. I've seen teenagers come into the emergency room with alcohol levels in the 400's. One girl was wearing pants...but no underwear. That was scary because she'd put on underwear that evening. Where did it go? She didn't remember. I've seen people die of liver disease and it was horrible to watch. It may not be the evil that tobacco is, but it has a very narrow safety index (the amount to kill you is less than 10 times the amount required to get you drunk). I haven't seen a death from acute alcohol toxicity but only because we were there to intervene.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
I thought most people would have been well familiar with how the Taliban used poppy fields to fund terrorism, for example.

Well, yes. Because nobody else sells opium. If Monsanto and ADM could sell it, the Taliban would be unable to compete and the funds would go to Monsanto and ADM shareholders and not to Al Qaeda. And with heroin available to addicts at a known concentration in clean/pure form in clean syringes, there would be fewer deaths and fewer injuries from it.

Tell me, do you know the pharmacodynamics of heroin? Did you know that in your own country, heroin is actually legally available? You might have even been administered it at some point in your life if you ever showed up at your local A&E after a bad accident. It's called "diamorphine" in the UK. We don't use it in the us. We use fentanyl and meperidine, which are similarly potent but harder to synthesize (and don't cross-react for morphine-allergic patients).

So... do you know how heroin is synthesized? Do you know why it is so much more potent than morphine? Do you know what receptor it binds to in the brain? Do you know how it gets into the brain? I'd be interested to know if you do, because you should know about these things before making ridiculous statements like the ones that you've made.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
Why would you assume those are solely 1st world problems?

Indeed. They certainly are not solely the preserve of richer lands.

[Edited 2013-01-23 16:22:59]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8725 posts, RR: 43
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 40):
issues like gang turf wars in Mexico, poppy fields funding terrorism

You do realise that both are issues solely because Cocaine and Heroin have been made illegal? Just look at all the gang wars that alcohol prohibition caused.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 40):
Please forgive me for not realising the 1st world problems caused by drinking and smoking

I am quite baffled on how you came to this line of thinking......   

Care to explain?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 40):
Please forgive me for not realising the 1st world problems caused by drinking and smoking you listed are more severe problems than issues like gang turf wars in Mexico, poppy fields funding terrorism or women in some African countries being made to work as prostitutes to payback their 'pimp' who got them forcibly hooked on drugs....

Well aloges took the words right out of my mouth:

Quoting aloges (Reply 44):
You do realise that both are issues solely because Cocaine and Heroin have been made illegal? Just look at all the gang wars that alcohol prohibition caused.

Yep. Why doesn't the cartel smuggle in tobacco or alcohol?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 40):
women in some African countries being made to work as prostitutes to payback their 'pimp' who got them forcibly hooked on drugs....

Can you corroborrate this? It's awfully hard to get someone hooked on drugs without their consent.


User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Look, the point of my sayings is that drugs are illegal and do cause problems. Saying well that's only because they are illegal is beside the point on what I'm saying. Women in African countries have been known to have been forcibly injected repeatedly with drugs (and yes I have studied this). And yes Doc, anyone who has been on this site for 5 mins knows yoh are a doctor...And I really don't care about the medical questions you asked. This is as much a social problem. My opinions are not going to change and quite frankly this woman deserves everything she is going to get. She knew the law and tough if she didnt - ignorance is not an excuse in law. And finally, the problems you listed are mainly 1st world problems and if you can't accept that, well it shows how naive you are.


If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8725 posts, RR: 43
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
Look, the point of my sayings is that drugs are illegal and do cause problems.

Two very potent drugs are legal in most places and cause immense damage.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
Saying well that's only because they are illegal is beside the point on what I'm saying.

It isn't, you were describing the very sort of problem that stems from illicit trade.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
My opinions are not going to change

Then why are you participating in the discussion?

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
this woman deserves everything she is going to get.

The Indonesian prosecution disagreed. And what about the possible coercion?

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
And finally, the problems you listed are mainly 1st world problems

Nonsense. People all over the world drink excessively and smoke, so the problems associated with those drugs occur all over the world. Why would an Indonesian chain smoker have other problems than a British one? Why would a Siberian drunkard have less liver trouble than one from Bavaria?

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
if you can't accept that, well it shows how naive you are.

Why the personal attack?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6351 posts, RR: 31
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2212 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
And finally, the problems you listed are mainly 1st world problems and if you can't accept that, well it shows how naive you are.

First world problems? Look at the leading causes of death in Mexico, as you´ve cited Mexico in one of your examples. See how Cirrhosis of the liver is the 3th cause of death (alcoholism) ischaemic heart disease 2th, COPD 5th, Hypertensive heart diesease 10th. All attributable in part to alcohol consumption and smoking.

"Turf Wars" as you used the term is 8th

Also, do you know which country outside the US has more AA groups? Yup. Mexico.

Diabetes mellitus 12%
Ischaemic heart disease 11%
Cirrhosis of the liver 7%
Cerebrovascular disease 5%
Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease 4%
Road traffic accidents 3%
Lower respiratory infections 3%
Violence (homicide) 3%
Kidney failure 2%
Hypertensive heart disease 2%

You should do some research before calling other members on this forum naive.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):

Can you corroborrate this? It's awfully hard to get someone hooked on drugs without their consent.

There have long been anecdotal stories of human traffickers forcibly injecting girls with heroin regularly to induce addiction, and while it may be hard to corroborate as such, I'm inclined to believe that somewhere there may be some truth to such reports. Certainly physical violence and rape are other evil tools of their sick trade, so why not this too? In cases where the subjects are utterly in the hands of ruthless traffickers who intend sexual exploitation, is it really so tricky for them to induce addiction in this way? Honest question, no agenda. How many doses might it take, for example, of i/v heroin before true dependance results? Don't know much about Africa in this regard, but I have heard it most with regard to Eastern European females who fall into such situations.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

I don't really feel any sympathy for her, another idiot who thought it would be good idea to make some quick money by smuggling drugs to a country with extremely strict penalties from such act.

By doing stuff like that she would have also directly supported these criminals behind drug smuggling and also all the violence related to it.

And I don't really have anything against death penalty in cases like this, if I could choose all the drug smugglers, mass murderers and other similar severe criminals would be allowed to choose between getting shot and working on forced labor camps until they are too old to work and would be placed inside prisons for rest of their lives.

[Edited 2013-01-24 05:10:05]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2171 times:

Assuming that her story is true, I doubt this woman has any regrets in doing what she did. If she had to chose between losing her life or a young relative losing theirs then she would undoubtably give up her own.

Which completely defeats the purpose of the punishment. Severe punishments in these sorts of cases should only be passed down where the behaviour has been repeated, and the defendant has shown recurring disregard for the law. I don't think you should ever be sentenced to death (or a significant prison term) for making one error in judgement (regardless of its severity).

I certainly don't defend her actions, and absolutely feel that she should pay the price for her absolute stupidity. But I think society (as an entirety, because virtually every country in earth can do justice better IMO) should be working towards more effective means of enforcing the law.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6124 posts, RR: 29
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
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Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 7):
Firing Squad in this instance.

That is sweet. We need more of that in the USA.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
so she was warned, her problem.

That's right. She broke the law so she has to deal with it. I respect the laws of the countries I travel to, so should she.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
I think that killing someone for mere possession of a substance that cannot harm an innocent bystander

But what about all the crime that took place to get it in the pocket of the user? When drug dealers murder each other in Detroit that substance caused murder. So to say it doesn't harm anyone is BS. About the only way drug use doesn't hurt anyone is if you make it, grow it, and consume it.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Well, the death penalty is certainly not a deterrent against murder

Because it isn't fast enough. Start putting bullets in the backs of heads within weeks of conviction and it will.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
Earth. Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do

No they don't, people can consume those for years and get along just fine. People get hooked on snorting pills they generally become useless in short amount of time. The people who think these drugs don't hurt anyone don't work with junkies or hang around with them much.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 39):
Funniest comment I've read on A.net. Beats flairport.

Hahahaha. Alcohol and cigarettes are actually drugs, no matter how much society might like getting pissed every weekend.

Nobody has ever robbed my house to get money for smokes or alcohol. I haven't heard of somebody needing a smoke or a beer bashing their dad with a club because he didn't give them money for it (somebody I actually know). I don't see people ruin their lives because they smoke. I don't see 20 year olds laying dead because the smoked too much or even drank too much. Since I began teaching I have lost 21 former students, all but two died because of drug abuse. You don't snort pills or shoot H to be social, in a average group of people. It isn't like meeting the guys after work for beers. People go out for drinks for years and never have any trouble. If you start shooting H or snorting Oxy you are going to get hooked. I am seen it dozens of times. I recently was talking with a student who said that coke doesn't hurt anyone, who told him that? some other coke user for sure. Tell that to my buddy who died of a coke overdose at a hooker's house. He was living in his car and stealing for a living. He also was a smoker and a drinker long before he was a junkie, but could hold a job with those vises and didn't have to steal from people to get the money to pay for it. I know lots of drunks and smokers who hold a job and do just fine. Drug addicts tend not be able to hold things together very long.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
That is sweet

Shooting people tied to a post is never 'sweet'. It's always a shame, whether or not you consider the punishment justified. You may consider she deserves it, that's fine - but it's still a pity that the situation ever arose, and never a valid cause for celebration.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 50):

My best friend lived in Mexico for a while - and he has made loads of Mexican friends and even taught at a Mexican university. And guess what?! The common trend amongst those people is thae thing they hate most about their country: the murders and violence associated with drugs. It scares them more than alcohol related issues and smoking related issues.

Quoting aloges (Reply 49):

: "Then why are you participating in the discussion?"
You think this site changes people's opinions often? I am partaking in a debate in which I have strong issues on. I am a strong willed person and I'm not afraid to say what I think I case other people disagree or get offended.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):

I'm glad we are on the same page here  

A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 56):
You think this site changes people's opinions often?

If you don't think that, there's probably no point in participating. I for one have learnt lots from being here and listening to people. Being strong willed is fine, but if you're saying that you don't intend to ever listen to other opinions here then you are de facto solely participating to force your will on others. Not a great place to be. Relax a little, by all means stick to your guns if you want, but open your ears and mind a bit.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
Nobody has ever robbed my house to get money for smokes or alcohol. I haven't heard of somebody needing a smoke or a beer bashing their dad with a club because he didn't give them money for it (somebody I actually know). I don't see people ruin their lives because they smoke. I don't see 20 year olds laying dead because the smoked too much or even drank too much.

Then you must have lived a very sheltered life. I've seen MANY kids who would have died of alcohol poisoning save for the fact that we were standing there with ET tubes, nasal trumpets and other medical interventions. Death by alcohol poisoning is common.

I've never EVER seen anyone die of long-term complications of marijuana...OR short-term complications of marijuana. Cocaine, yes. Heroin, yes. Methamphetamine, yes. But not nearly as many as I have seen suffer from the long-term effects of tobacco and alcohol.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
Nobody has ever robbed my house to get money for smokes or alcohol. I haven't heard of somebody needing a smoke or a beer bashing their dad with a club because he didn't give them money for it (somebody I actually know).

That's because they're cheap and legal. You can always scare up a few bucks for a box of cigs. And I have actually seen assaults by alcoholic teenagers on their parents because their parents wouldn't give them money for booze. I've seen that many times.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
But what about all the crime that took place to get it in the pocket of the user? When drug dealers murder each other in Detroit that substance caused murder. So to say it doesn't harm anyone is BS. About the only way drug use doesn't hurt anyone is if you make it, grow it, and consume it.

So if, instead of cartels, it was Monsanto and ADM growing coca leaves openly and harvesting them just like they do bananas and then shipping them to the US just like bananas, how much do you think it would cost? Who would need to be shot? Nobody.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 51):
There have long been anecdotal stories of human traffickers forcibly injecting girls with heroin regularly to induce addiction, and while it may be hard to corroborate as such, I'm inclined to believe that somewhere there may be some truth to such reports.

I am not, because that is not how addiction works. You can make someone physically dependent, yes. But you cannot forcibly addict someone. And that seems like a very bizzarre way of operating. It would take days to weeks of high-dose heroin on a regular schedule to get someone physically dependent on heroin. Strikes me as awfully expensive.

To me, that story smacks of propaganda, nothing more. But you said it yourself, "anecdotal," which is right next to "worthless."

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
Look, the point of my sayings is that drugs are illegal and do cause problems. Saying well that's only because they are illegal is beside the point on what I'm saying.

No, it's exactly the point. You are spouting falsehoods, not facts, and irrelevancies.

So... there are people on this board who are actually experts on things like pharmacology (me), medicine (me), and who have seen the damage first-hand done by different drugs (me). So why don't you open your mind and...

...learn?


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10096 posts, RR: 26
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 2078 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
And finally, the problems you listed are mainly 1st world problems and if you can't accept that, well it shows how naive you are.

I love it! Don't provide evidence, just tell your audience how ignorant they are. It's a very obvious strategy.

Quoting aloges (Reply 49):
Why the personal attack?

Ahhh, don't bother going down that road...

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 56):
You think this site changes people's opinions often?

Dunno about you, but I'm generally here to learn.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
No they don't, people can consume those for years and get along just fine.

Yes, people can. But MANY people can't. As I already posted, lung cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc....

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
The people who think these drugs don't hurt anyone don't work with junkies or hang around with them much.

I haven't seen any such people on this thread. Drugs CAN hurt people, as can alcohol and cigarettes. And alcohol and cigarettes are WAY more widespread.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
I don't see people ruin their lives because they smoke.

I would consider lung cancer and emphysema pretty certain life-ruiners.

And obviously (since you didn't mention it), alcohol has ruined millions of lives. Probably far more than illegal drugs.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 56):
The common trend amongst those people is thae thing they hate most about their country: the murders and violence associated with drugs.

That doesn't mean it's the biggest problem they have.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineA320ajm From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 2077 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
So... there are people on this board who are actually experts on things like pharmacology (me), medicine (me), and who have seen the damage first-hand done by different drugs (me). So why don't you open your mind and...

...learn?

A lot of close family members of mine are in law enforcement. After the horror stories I have heard regarding drugs, ans their opinions after seeing first hand what happens in crack dens, on the streets etc, I would NEVER touch an illegal substance and never have. And with no disrespect (I do have a lot of admiration for doctors), I believe and trust them a lot more than you. Out of interest then, what is your opinion on the Gateway drug theory as you piped down the risk of low level drugs earlier in this post?

A320ajm



If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7710 posts, RR: 21
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
I am not, because that is not how addiction works. You can make someone physically dependent, yes. But you cannot forcibly addict someone. And that seems like a very bizzarre way of operating. It would take days to weeks of high-dose heroin on a regular schedule to get someone physically dependent on heroin. Strikes me as awfully expensive.

The expense I think is perhaps not such an issue. Certainly the gangs operating in the Balkans have heroin at their disposal, as they are key players in both heroin and people trafficking. The physical difficulty is the bigger issue I think.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):

Why is alcohol and tobacco legal while weed is not? I can see people argue against weed but I can't see how they can also be for alcohol and tobacco

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 60):
Gateway drug theory

I think weed being the gateway drug is BS. I think tobacco is, the people I've seen on heavy drugs started with cigarettes, not weed. Plus, I've seen a lot of people stop at weed and not make the huge jump to harder drugs. I think it weed was legal there wouldn't be the illegal, shady factor that can facilitate in going to harder drugs



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6124 posts, RR: 29
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 2039 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
I've never EVER seen anyone die of long-term complications of marijuana

Neither have I. I would imagine sucking in all that smoke might not be too good for you.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
Then you must have lived a very sheltered life. I've seen MANY kids who would have died of alcohol poisoning save for the fact that we were standing there with ET tubes, nasal trumpets and other medical interventions. Death by alcohol poisoning is common.

You work in the business where you see that kind of thing; I don't. However, of the 21 former students of mine that I know have died in the last 12 years one was hit by a car, one killed in a motorcycle wreck, and 19 from drug ODs, mostly pills, but a couple from herion and one from meth.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
Who would need to be shot? Nobody.

Those groups aren't going to give up easily. They will just move on to something else.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 59):
Yes, people can. But MANY people can't. As I already posted, lung cancer, emphysema, COPD, etc....

Yes, but those don't happen quickly. I stopped smoking 12 years ago and didn't have any problems from it. If I smoked as much crack as I smoked tobacco I would have been dead 20 years ago. The 20 year old who passes out in the pricipal's office from taking too much xanax didn't hurt herself with cigarettes.

You can take three drinks a day a live a long life; snort three lines of coke a day and you likely will be a worthless turd.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3654 posts, RR: 5
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 60):
A lot of close family members of mine are in law enforcement. After the horror stories I have heard regarding drugs, ans their opinions after seeing first hand what happens in crack dens, on the streets etc, I would NEVER touch an illegal substance and never have.

So what is their opinion after working a night shift in days like this and dealing with :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-fuelled-chaos-cities-Britain.html

Before you say it, I know it is the Daily Mail, but we both know that it doesn't make the pictures less real. And keep in mind that these are just the people that went out to have a good time, I am not even showing you photos and stories that involve long-term alcoholism and the results of it.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 63):
You work in the business where you see that kind of thing; I don't. However, of the 21 former students of mine that I know have died in the last 12 years one was hit by a car, one killed in a motorcycle wreck, and 19 from drug ODs, mostly pills, but a couple from herion and one from meth.
Quoting falstaff (Reply 63):
Those groups aren't going to give up easily. They will just move on to something else.

Move on to what else? I keep on hearing the argument, but nobody has ever answered my simple question. "They won't give up." OK? So what will they do?

You CANNOT eliminate the demand for drugs. It is physically and practically impossible. As long as that demand exists, there will be an apparatus for supply. People who think that it is possible to eliminate the demand for drugs through harsher punishments are not dealing with reality. It's just that simple. Prohibition has NEVER ONCE worked in human history, even when the consequences have been dire. It literally has a 0.000000% success rate. And yet people keep on trying to lose it because they simply cannot deal with basic reality.

If I told you that we should all try by running outside and flapping our arms hard, you'd call me crazy. But you are essentially advocating an equally futile activity at great cost to the public fund.

So you may choose whether to allow that inevitable apparatus to operate without any legal oversight or means for peaceful resolution of conflict or whether to allow it to operate openly in a setting in which it can be regulated and conflicts can be peacefully resolved through legal channels. Just like booze today as opposed to booze in the 1930's


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6351 posts, RR: 31
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 1968 times:
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Quoting A320ajm (Reply 56):
The common trend amongst those people is thae thing they hate most about their country: the murders and violence associated with drugs. It scares them more than alcohol related issues and smoking related issues.

I don´t get it. I provide you with a table to try and explain things to you and you come back telling me an anecdote of your best friend´s interaction in Mexico. Guess what? I live here, in Monterrey, to boot. I know about violence, and again, that is not the main cause of death in this country. But I guess your

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 48):
My opinions are not going to change

explains the petty arrogance.

My father died of stomach cancer at 62. He smoked 4-5 packs a day for many years. DId that give him the cancer? I can´t tell you for sure, maybe our resident Doc can shed some light in that, but what I can tell you is that he did not die in a drug related shootout.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 59):
That doesn't mean it's the biggest problem they have.

     


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3385 posts, RR: 9
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
"what if someone smokes a lot of weed and goes driving" because in that case, we really need to ban alcohol because people abuse that and do stupid things with it and it's legal


That is likely the end goal of an organization like MADD, they have become very neo-prohibitionist that the original founder of the organization Candice Lightner left it.

Quote:
Lightner had left the group in 1985. In 2002, Lightner stated that MADD "has become far more neo-prohibitionist than I had ever wanted or envisioned … I didn't start MADD to deal with alcohol. I started MADD to deal with the issue of drunk driving"
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 26):
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 20):
Drugs are inherently more dangerous, and fund other criminal activities.

No offense, but you bought hard into the DARE propaganda. There are dozens of drugs far more "dangerous" than cocaine, and they're perfectly legal.

  

There is very good joke that Bill Maher makes about this and it is as follows.

Quote:
When people tell me that weed is just as or more dangerous than legal drugs I respond with. Michael Jackson is dead and Kieth Richards is alive!!
Quoting A320ajm (Reply 34):
Alcohol and cigarettes don't cause the severity of problems drugs do.

Yes they do, you just likely accept smokers and alcoholics as commonplace.

I know from experience that alcohol is far more dangerous by multiple factors than pot is. Also pot has never killed anyone and booze kills thousands in the US alone every year.

Regarding the harder drugs, you may have a point there but I'll take Doc's arguments.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 54):
Quoting FaddyPainter (Reply 7):
Firing Squad in this instance.

That is sweet. We need more of that in the USA.

Isn't the US supposed to be civilized   



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 819 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

I do think the whole war on drugs should end. Far too many resources (especially on the producing end) invested and demand seems to continue to grow. But as that is not going to happen I wish at the least the double moral would end, and the consuming end of this problem should be penalized as much as the producing end. Supply always follows the Demand for a product, yet somehow the richer nations want this market law to disappear. I am sure that if both ends would be treated in the same way things might even change. So jail for consumers if there is jail for producers or traffickers, death sentence for consumers if there is death sentence for producers and traffickers.

User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Hopefully they can use her organs for something good. This has the potential to become a positive story.

User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2298 posts, RR: 7
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Quoting bogota (Reply 68):
I am sure that if both ends would be treated in the same way things might even change. So jail for consumers if there is jail for producers or traffickers, death sentence for consumers if there is death sentence for producers and traffickers.

OK. In this case, all drugs must be treated the same. Death penalty for injecting some heroin? Also death penalty for drinking a glass of beer. Death penalty for snorting a line of coke? Death penalty for smoking a cigarette.

It's ridiculous to have a state-sponsored legal drug, like tobacco or alcohol.


User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 819 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 70):
OK. In this case, all drugs must be treated the same. Death penalty for injecting some heroin? Also death penalty for drinking a glass of beer. Death penalty for snorting a line of coke? Death penalty for smoking a cigarette.

What ever you do is perfect as long as the double standard does not continue. The problem is that the companies of legal drugs are based in richer countries and the illegal drugs are based in poorer countries. Marihuana began to be seen as a different type of drug since it became the largest cash crop inside the US.


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