Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Do You Give Money To Beggars? If Not, Other Help?  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4613 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This question is the result of a discussion, well disagreement really, I had with a friend the other day. I was approached for money by an obvious vagrant who was in a very sorry-looking state, and I said no, but asked if he was hungry and if he would like something to eat. He said yes, so I duly furnished him with BK burger and a hot cup of coffee. He was very grateful and scoffed the burger immediately.

Anyway, 'sucker' was what my friend called me for doing this. When pushed for justification of this label, his main thrust seemed to be along the lines that he was sure the guy could get proper help if he wanted it and was basically too lazy or disorganised or whatever to sort himself out.

I consider this to be pretty callous, and I was pretty disappointed in him (not that I'll hold it against him!). The bottom line for me is that he was in an obviously bad way, it was cold and we'd had snow, and regardless of why he is in this position I will not begrudge someone a bit of food if I can afford to give it to them, have the time etc. (well, if you can call BK food.....). I am not happy to simply dish out money to unknown ends.

So the question - do you give money or any other form of help to homeless people sometimes? If so, in what form? If never, why not?

I realise I can't help everyone, but I do buy a hot drink or bite to eat for people now and again if the attitude is ok and they appear to need it. I really don't see anything wrong with it.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4606 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
He said yes, so I duly furnished him with BK burger and a hot cup of coffee. He was very grateful and scoffed the burger immediately

The last straw was when a bum asked me for food while he was standing infront of a door at the McDonald's om Woodward Ave, in Detroit. I told him I would buy him anything he wanted, but he said he wanted Wendy's and could I give him the money instead. I asked where he would get Wendy's and he said "down the block" I told him there was no Wendy's around here and he said he just wanted money.

We get worthless bums comming into my church all the time asking for food. I have taken many of them to the big pantry we have in the back for just such a reason and they tell me they want hot food. I then say "go down the street to the Methodist church they have hot food" then they say I want the money. Women who come in want the food and are happy to have it, the men really just want money.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
do you give money or any other form of help to homeless people sometimes? If so, in what form? If never, why not?

Never, Never, Never, I am have been burned enough times. I will give my church's food to people who actually want it and I contribute to organizations that will actually feed people, but I will not give a penny to a beggar on the street.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6094 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4599 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Elderly people: Due to our sorry Social Security system, many elderly men and women live in total abandon and / or squalor. They obviously can´t work and usually live alone, in srtuctures that can hardly be called a home. I give to them anytime I can.

Children: Never. A child begging is being exploited by an adult. Giving them money is promoting that exploitation.

Adults: Mentally ill? I´ll get them food, but no money, as it only makes them targets and usually loose it or spend it in alcohol or drugs. Not mentally ill? Sorry, I need that money too.



MGGS
User currently onlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7083 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

It depends. When in the car I have change around which will only sit there for years or go to parking so once in a while I will give the person come change it really just depends and it's fairly random unless I actually believe the sign they are holding.

As for food, it has only happened once but a man in a drive thru line asked if I could order him a meal and I did. I have no problem with that. I'm lucky enough to never had to worry about anything like so might as well help people out who are when possible.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3617 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
So the question - do you give money or any other form of help to homeless people sometimes? If so, in what form? If never, why not?

Depends. I usually go for non-cash donations. If some homeless person asks me for food I will gladly get some for them. I have run on homeless people sitting outside convenience stores and they sometimes ask if I could get them something to eat and drink. I would not give money because I think it would be wasted on non-essentials such as drugs and alcohol.

I have only given money twice, both times when visiting back home in Greece. On one occasion I saw a very old lady looking for food in a trashcan and a few days later the same scene with a mother and two children. I did give them enough money to get some food, since the crisis has eliminated any state-sponsored safety nets.

I don't really agree with people that consider them bums who are too lazy to get a job and get their life going. Some people screw up badly and end up on the street. That is enough self-inflicted "punishment" for them and I can only assume that going from the street to a position capable of getting any job is very hard to almost impossible.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4579 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
So the question - do you give money or any other form of help to homeless people sometimes? If so, in what form? If never, why not?

No, I don't anymore. Give them money, they'll be out looking for their next hit or score instead of actually trying to help themselves. It's pathetic. So, I stopped helping.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

In Paris, I assume, like in London, most beggars are Roma (Romanian Gypsies): an organised petty crime mafia. They harass you on every second corner, they live in shanty towns on the edge of town and the proceeds go straight to the tribal boss, then the mafia boss. They abuse their children and use them as emotional capital from a very early age. They drug them as the get too old for being nursed for sympathy so that they sleep all day, compliant in their arms to attract more revenue. This is out and out child abuse and illegal in France.

I give to anyone who does not fall into the Roma category, as with the Roma I am only supporting a culture of oppression. Lone and obviously independent beggars I am willing to give something to.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2934 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4567 times:

I used to give money, but there's a small problem where in EVERY single intersection there's someone begging. And if you gave to one and have no money for the next one, you're the bad guy.

I switched to buying them food or something else, but the last straw was a guy at McDonald's who came to me begging to eat. He wanted money but I told him I could buy anything he wanted from the restaurant. Not only did he ask for the most expensive meal, he actually threw it away.

I no longer give anything to anyone, even if my pocket is jingling and full of coins. Too much risk. Give them a penny, they might take a gun out and rob you of everything.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4560 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting falstaff (Reply 1):

The last straw was when a bum asked me for food while he was standing infront of a door at the McDonald's om Woodward Ave, in Detroit. I told him I would buy him anything he wanted, but he said he wanted Wendy's and could I give him the money instead. I asked where he would get Wendy's and he said "down the block" I told him there was no Wendy's around here and he said he just wanted money.

That sucks. If you're hungry you take what you are offered. I had the opposite experience to you not so long ago, when I was by a well-known coffee chain. A shivering guy asked for cash, no I said, but would he like a hot drink and food? He said yes please, and I said he could have anything he liked within reason. The ONLY thing asked for was hot milk.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):

No, I don't anymore. Give them money, they'll be out looking for their next hit or score instead of actually trying to help themselves. It's pathetic. So, I stopped helping.

Yes, but reading my whole post money wasn't the only focus. One can help in other ways.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
In Paris, I assume, like in London, most beggars are Roma (Romanian Gypsies): an organised petty crime mafia

Yup, they are about and will get NOTHING from me.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1119 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

I have...now that I work downtown it is a daily occurance to be approached, a friend was going into a CVS to buy beer, he got a 6-pack of Miller High Life to have some on the train home, he saw a street person on the way out and asked if he'd like a beer, of course the guy said "yes" so he gave him a beer..as he walked away all he heard was "f**$ing High Life" I knew another who saw a Mcdonalds that offered 2 Big Macs for the price of one and he gave the 2nd one to a homeless woman..her answer was not thank you but "where are the fries and drink"..like we owe these F*%$s anything..they are there because they want to be and I can tell you more of what I've observed..screw 'em

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4549 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting charlienorth (Reply 9):
..like we owe these F*%$s anything..they are there because they want to be and I can tell you more of what I've observed..screw 'em

The attitude test is all important. Any hint of aggression or arrogance and the refusal to help will be total.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

We don't don't seem to high a high level of vagrancy or begging going on around here. The occasional person on the side of the road or at the top of an exit ramp, but nothing over the top. I really can't recall when someone may have come up to me and ask for money in this city. I'm not so naive to think that they don't exist; maybe they aren't as aggressive here?

But, I never, ever provide cash. To tell you the truth, I rarely provide anything. My wife and I give generously to our church and our local charities.

On a rare occasion, when something in particular moves me, I will provide some food. Sometime in the early fall, I saw a man and 2 children at the top of the exit ramp and something told me they really needed some help. Instead of heading right to work, I went to a Subway, bought some turkey sub meals and returned to the intersection. I just handed the bags to the dad(?), said God bless and moved on.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3764 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

I'll give a little money if I have it (and can spare the change) every once in a while. The city I live in isn't huge, and we don't have a huge number of beggars, but there are some. I also buy a magazine called "Faktum" which is sold by homeless people. They receive a 50% commission, I believe, and it's actually a pretty decent rag.

I've started to notice what appears to be an organised group of young beggars (including children looking to be around 8-10) coming through town and spening time sitting and asking for money on the sidewalk. They come through town every few months and stay for a few days. First time I came across them, it was a small child outside my local grocery wearing a sweater and sweatpants in -10C weather. I called the social services, who came and took the child in, fed him and gave him new clothes. When I called the next day to see what happened, the story I got from the social service the child's "uncle" had collected him, as they were only "passing through", and there was nothing they could do. I've seen the same kid when the group has come through town since.

I won't give anything to them. Seems to be a Fagin-like character, this "uncle" pulling the strings and pocketing the money, who apparently doesn't mind his minions risking freezing to death in order to make them look more pathetic and thus bring in more money.

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4461 times:

Twice I gave about $5 to woman who said they where homeless and they wanted money for food. I used to give to homeless more often but the question on how they use the money has come into question, alcohol and drug by itinerants is something I have seen from time to time. I have never given money to people on the freeway exits. I do though give to organizations like the Salvation Army but little to anyone else. A lot of these people in Long Beach who solicit and possibly grift ask for money (to help homeless) don't show or disclose the organization they are working for so I don't give to them anymore.


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 695 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4437 times:

I have volunteered at organsiations to help street people, runaways and women trying to escape abusers. In North America and the EU someone begging for money on the street is 95% of the time someone who has decided that begging for money is their occupation. It sounds a rough life to most of us, but by panhandling and selectively using the available social services they eat well enough and are effectively on one long camping trip, or one long vacation from membership in conventional scoiety.

Not that they don't deserve help, but helpless is not the correct term for their situation in most cases.


Pu


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 14):
who has decided that begging for money is their occupation.

A long time ago, when I was in high school, I would ride the 'A' train to school. I noticed this one pan-handler I'd seen almost everyday and decided following him would be more interesting than whatever was going to be going on in school.

The guy went from car-to-car and I figure he picked up about $2 a car. During the morning rush, the 'A' train was 10 cars and the guy would work his way through the train in 15-20 mins. He would get off the train walk to the front of the platform. By the time he got to the front, another train would be coming into the station...about 8 mins or so.

So, he worked 2.5 trains an hour for about 3 hours. I suspect that he did the same for the night rush.

So, in 1984'ish, this guy was pulling in about $50/hour for 5 or so hours a day. I'm sure some days were worse than others, but it did seem to be a pretty good gig.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5668 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4403 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not often, where I now live there are few homeless folk in the street.

A couple of years back at the station entrance I passed through on the way to and from work there was one regular and as I had just come off a longish unemplyed spell and was in an entry level role I rarely had much to spare in any case, he was always ready with a smile and a have a nice day whether you gave or not, so one day I asked if I could get him a coffee or a cool drink and he readily accepted, we had a nice chat and after that every week or so I would stop have a bit of chat and maybe I would get a sandwich or two..

I pass that way every few months and he is sometimes there, I hope others get as much reward from his good humour as I did!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9096 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4393 times:

It really depends. In Germany, our social systenm supports anyone without a regular income and that should be enough. However, if a guy looks genuinely in trouble I give.

A problem we have here is beggars who come in from places lke Romania and are held like slaves by their owner, whatever you give them is taken from them to finance the boss' fancy live style. Old women mutate to young women once the shift is over and they are driven in a Benz to their shabby dwellings. It is actually organised crime which should not be supported.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinemal787 From Australia, joined Jul 2007, 687 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4393 times:

In a case like this , I will by anybody a good feed and a drink. I never give money, as 9 times out of 10 it ends up being spent on alcohol. If they don't want the food , so be it but they cant have the $$ equivalent I sometimes get called names from them for this as they need the $$ for grog.

mal787



Flying cant get enough of it
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4394 times:

Most of the beggars around here are gypsies, I'll never give money to them, especially after I watched one take a dump outside the Storting in Oslo, right beside the public toilet, they are almost subhuman IMO. The stupid Norwegian govt made begging legal a couple of years ago now the country is flooded with Roma, there isn't a clean sidewalk or street corner in Oslo, they piss and shit everywhere, just nasty, nasty excuses for humans. Some cities in Norway have even provided toilet and showering facilities for them, they go unsed. Our local group were kicked out of the motorcamp they were staying in, for nonpayment, they completely trashed the caravans and campsite, they are now living in the hills somewere outside of town.

User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4380 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Most of the beggars around here are gypsies

Around these parts gypsies are usually involved in home improvement scams and other construction related rip offs. A buddy of mine who owns a business gets them stopping in from time to time to "reseal" his parking lot. He got burned by it 30 years ago, when it turned out to be used motor oil.

When I was a teenager in, St. Louis, Missouri, I remember seeing news reports on the local channels about gypsies being spotted in the area and tips on how to spot and avoid their scams.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4380 times:

I think the EU needs to develop a policy on the Roma. They are illegally present in very large numbers now in most EU countries and are a major social and security problem. Avoiding talking about them as a group is just impossibly stupid PC behaviour. They ACT AS A GROUP: a dehumanising organised crime ring built on the abuse of the children and the exploitation of the many for wealth of a few crime bosses. The EU is currently, with its generous policies, providing the perfect 'Petri dish' to ferment their activity and numbers.

The only way to break the cycle of hopelessness for their children and social problems for their 'host' nations is to smash the criminal rings that operate their activities. This will require some tough 'love' action.

PC does not cut it with the Roma problem.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26787 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4377 times:

I agree with food donations other than money but what I hate is when these people stand or sit next to ATMs as its very intimidating. The Police should move them on.

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4358 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Around these parts gypsies are usually involved in home improvement scams and other construction related rip offs.

I think there's a world of difference between gypsies in the US and UK (Irish Travellers) than the human detris Roma gypsie that we get in Norway. Our gypsies wouldn't know a job if it came up and slapped them in the face, they don't understand the concept of cleanleness, they sleep rough, they aren't ashphalt contractors, they probably can't drive. They don't have big fat gypsie weddings like they do in the UK and US

American/UK style gypsy



Norwegian Roma Beggar - every street corner has several of these



User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

It's different everywhere, but in this country you get supported by the taxpayer if you can't afford to support yourself for whatever reason. There are additional allowances and programmes designed to get people on their feet, into jobs and off the dole.

I appreciate that the are all sorts of circumstances and stories, and that homeless people have generally lived very difficult lives or are going through difficult periods. But there is a point where they've got to get up and at least try to do more than just sit and wait for others to give money.

I virtually always give the guy standing at the traffic lights washing windows a few dollars. If I have some cash then I'll buy a copy of the Big Issue (which I don't think is in the US yet). But I never give anything to beggars...


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4443 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Roma gypsie that we get in Norway

I was pretty shocked last time I was in Oslo. Couldn't believe how many there were in the centre.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4443 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
aren't ashphalt contractors

They aren't here either, they just want you to think they are.  
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Roma Beggar

I have run across them in Europe. If they talk to me I swear at them in German and keep on walking.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 25):

I was pretty shocked last time I was in Oslo. Couldn't believe how many there were in the centre.

It's like an infestation of roaches, nearly impossible to get rid of, especially when the do gooder politicians legalised begging a few years ago.

like starbucks one on every corner!

http://nikongear.com/live/uploads/gallery/album_330/gallery_12015_330_488335.jpg


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9096 posts, RR: 29
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 26):
I have run across them in Europe. If they talk to me I swear at them in German and keep on walking.

just ignore them and try to stay away from them. .

It's what i meant when i spoke about organised crime, whatever they collect they have to give to their owner who gives them a crappy place to sleep and trash to eat. .



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4530 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4389 times:

I give a sizeable amount to the Salvation Army every year. Conscience salved and you know that the funds will be wisely spent.


Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently onlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2261 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4368 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
most beggars are Roma (Romanian Gypsies)

Rroma are not necessarily Romanian. There are Rroma throughout Europe.

You can call them whatever you like, and many, if not most, are from Romania, but many Europeans put an equal sign where there shouldn't be one.

Because of these people, however, I will never give money to any beggar in Europe. I'd rather burn it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Some cities in Norway have even provided toilet and showering facilities for them, they go unsed.

They don't wash. That's the truth.. Back in Romania and Bulgaria they will not live in a house with a toilet inside, even if given for free. It's "against their culture".

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Most of the beggars around here are gypsies, I'll never give money to them, especially after I watched one take a dump outside the Storting in Oslo, right beside the public toilet, they are almost subhuman IMO.

I agree.

Here's one of their boss' houses and what you are financing if you're giving them anything:
http://www.neuronu.ro/wp-content/upl...de_tigani_-Buzescu_Teleorman_1.jpg


Furthermore, their whole culture is based on un-traditional work... but, preferably, separating suckers from their money. This guy gives you a crash course: http://kingofromania.com/2010/04/13/hey-hey-were-the-gypsies/

[Edited 2013-01-25 14:27:34]

User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1770 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

When I give, and that is extremely rare because of all the scams, exploitation, etc. it tends to be old people, specially women and indigenous. Around here, they are the disadvantaged among the disadvantaged.

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4315 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
I'd rather burn it.

I agree. In fact, I'd also prefer to flush my money down the toilet.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

I don't. Instead I work with my church and donate to LCCI which is Limestone County Churches Involved. That money and time and food and everything else that is donated is not wasted.

User currently offlinenickh From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4295 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

A woman that I used to work with had a very soft heart, when it came to giving to the homeless, etc. However, she was not careless about doing so and to that end, she came up with an interesting scheme:

Her bugdet for giving was about $50/month, so what she would do is to purchase (10) $5 gift cards for McDonald's or some other fast food joint, and when she was in the mood to give a homeless/hungry man a little help with getting a basic meal, she would give them one or two of the gift cards.

The cards are pre-paid, and the only place that they can be redeemed are at the store on the face of the card, so you cannot buy booze with them (well, I suppose that they could be sold for the face value, but that would take some effort).

I have, on ocassion, given someone in line at the grocery store, some extra change or a few bucks to cover their tab, but as a rule I no longer give cash to people on the street.

The pre-paid gift card idea is not the worst in the world - it gives you (the generous donor), some assurance that it will be spent on something legitimate.

-Nick



"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8163 posts, RR: 8
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

My wife and I don't give to street beggars but we do have organizations that we support. John 3:16 gets checks throughout the year and I make what is now an annual run to Sam's to get cases of food for the DAV's Christmas drive.

In terms of handing out money on the streets, I always carry cash during the holidays for the Salvo's Bell Ringers. It would be easier just to put a few large bills in, but I think the folks ringing the bells need a Thank You as well as some folded green going into their bucket.


User currently offlineitsjustme From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2768 posts, RR: 10
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
No, I don't anymore. Give them money, they'll be out looking for their next hit or score instead of actually trying to help themselves. It's pathetic. So, I stopped helping.

Nice attitude. Might I suggest donating to a credible charity? Or the victims of Hurricane Sandy can use your help. How about donating to a Children's Hospital?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
Give them a penny, they might take a gun out and rob you of everything.

This, unfortunately happens frequently. The scenario is, a street person will approach your vehicle and ask for money or just randomly start cleaning your windshield and expect to be compensated. And as you pull out your purse or wallet, they'll either grab it and run off or they'll stick a gun in your face. If you want to give money to a street beggar, or someone standing on an off ramp on a freeway, take the money out of your wallet/purse and have it in your hand before you pull up to them or call them over to your vehicle. Time's on your side in this case. And make sure you have a quick escape route, should things go south.


User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

I generally give. I am quite happy to take the risk of enabling bad behaviour on the off chance that I can actually help someone genuinely in need.

Everyone hits rock bottom at some point, be it emotionaly, financially, physically/health, etc. I would like to think that the human spirit as not become so "Darwinian" as to just brush off our obligation to assist other human beings, under the guise of some kind of "survival of the fittest" ethos.

I help a lot of people, and when I need help, I will not be too ashamed to ask for it.


User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3098 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4238 times:

If I give to 100 people, and only 1 of them is "legit," I have done the right thing.


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11461 posts, RR: 15
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

I don't give money to beggars. When I am in United States or Canada. We saw plenty of beggars in Mexico. I took the same attitude there as I do with beggars here: they don't need it because they will just use it for booze or drugs or they make enough already. But, Mexico was the only time I had to deal with that income gap. If I had it to do over again, I would give some of those kids 10 pesos or so. But, when I see healthy adults in the United States standing on the side of the freeway off ramp holding a sign, I just roll my eyes. If they can stand for 12 hours a day holding a sign, they can stand for 6 hours a day flipping burgers and contributing to society. And I can guarantee they are not all Vietnam veterans. Especially the 25 year olds.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
Especially the 25 year olds.

No they are the War on Terror and Gulf War(s) vets.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2370 posts, RR: 21
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4086 times:

I never donate money to homeless people here. Local citizens can get all the help they need. Free healthcare, a place to stay, free food and the list goes on. I already paid for that through my taxes.

The foreign beggars also steal and rob people here, are organized and arrive here in coaches/vans from Eastern Europe. Donating anything to them will only make the problem worse.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1160 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4069 times:

Well majority of beggars around here are foreigners who come from somewhere around Eastern Europe so no, I don't support beggar tourism and crime related to it. And then there are very very few Finnish people that would actually need to beg, after all this society does still relatively good job offering all its members good enough healthcare, food and place to stay.


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2414 posts, RR: 23
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4062 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I take it on a case by case basis. Here in Roanoke I rarely encounter instances of begging.

Back in Atlanta was another story. Atlanta, which is FULL of agencies that help the poor with, clothing, food,medicine, housing, rent and free utilities, still has, it would seem, hundred of people begging for cash.

Does that guy still hang-out at the intersection of loop road at the entrance to the DL Jet Base? He may have become a millionaire by now and moved to Gulf Shores.

Anyway, I have no problem helping out when I can. If I end up getting duped----oh well----- I've thrown more money away at disco's over the years than I ever gave to the starving----I'm ashamed to say.

BTW, what's with all the hate-speech over Gypsies? Wow, sounds like a call for ethnic cleansing-----whaaaaat-----from our peace loving and liberal membership? Don't say it's true!  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4046 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 43):
BTW, what's with all the hate-speech over Gypsies? Wow, sounds like a call for ethnic cleansing-----whaaaaat-----from our peace loving and liberal membership? Don't say it's true!

Unfortunately, the fact is that in western Europe there is a serious and very acute problem with regard to Roma gypsies from eastern Europe. They often arrive with nothing, are prolific and very organised beggars who don't think twice aboutusing or exploiting children, and are responsible for a lot of petty crime. I wish it wasn't so, but it's real. In the UK the Police have regularly bemoaned the fact that little can be done to prevent the presence of those who only want to take. It's not 'hate', it's an understandable reaction to the facts.

The problem is that they have long been victimised in their own countries, treated as second-class citizens for generations. Hence, they have not hesitated to transplant themselves en masse and behave in this way. They need help, but in general are doing themselves no favours with the citizens in their new countries by commiting so much crime.

See this, for example:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...ckpockets-in-west-end-7953180.html



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

In the UK it really isn't necessary to give money to beggars.

They can get food from soup kitchens every night, churches give out food too. No one starves here in the UK as we all can see.

The immigrants get the same protection in benefits as a full-blown Uk tax payer, free hospital access and free education.

A lot of that street begging seems to be people with emotional or psychological problems.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Not at all. I stopped giving after I saw a "beggar" get into a BMW or Mercedes (this was several years ago, so some details have faded) and drive away a few hours later.

Marc


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4004 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting babybus (Reply 45):
A lot of that street begging seems to be people with emotional or psychological problems.

Maybe, but many might therefore be in bad states and perhaps not particularly capable of planning. They might still need help, even if in principle there is stuff out there for them.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7035 posts, RR: 3
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 43):
BTW, what's with all the hate-speech over Gypsies? Wow, sounds like a call for ethnic cleansing-----whaaaaat-----from our peace loving and liberal membership? Don't say it's true!

Because they are a blot on the landscape, crime follows them like fleas on an old dog, they aren't worth wasting money on.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
They need help, but in general are doing themselves no favours with the citizens in their new countries by commiting so much crime.

Lots of countries have tried to help but they don't want it and won't accept it, they have a way of life which isn't compatible with the rest of us and they don't want to change, so we are stuck with them.


User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

I live close to a small city, which is deemed to be not only one of the most affluent in the UK, but also an international tourist destination. The result is that at times down and outs flock to us like flies to poo as they see easy pickings. Do they ever have local accents ? no, Scots, Irish, Geordie, they're all here. Fortunately we have a number of hostels to take them off the streets, otherwise the problem would be intolerable.

On that basis my judgement is that handing them money just draws more in to the area. The other guiding factor is that we also have very low unemployment, the only way that they can't get jobs is due to addictions to drugs or alcohol, and money will just make them worse.


User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

I gave a guy a cheeseburger once. He threw it back at me. Pretty much ruined it for the rest of them.

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3921 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 50):
I gave a guy a cheeseburger once. He threw it back at me. Pretty much ruined it for the rest of them.

That's a shame, but did you talk to him first? Definitely best to ask if he'd actually like one first, though of course there is no excuse for the reaction you got.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
It's like an infestation of roaches

Ha!
If you live in Oslo then your seeing the 4 that didn't move to Madrid.

They take the metro to my neighbourhood just to beg then go home at night. One trick the use is to approach tourists with a form for the "deaf kids of spain" asking to donate money. Claiming to be deaf means he doesn't need to know spanish and the form will have several "John Smith" 20 euro donations.... transferring from 2e to 2f at cdg i was approved by roma with the same form so its everywhere.





Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Europeans put an equal sign where there shouldn't be one.

my daughter has a Romanian classmate and her folks are dead on, we meet them from time to time.
When my cousin went to Romania to do charity work i said that place must be the biggest shit in the word but he said not at all. He like it!
I guess because the bad ones are over here now.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Rroma are not necessarily Romanian. There are Rroma throughout Europe.

Quite so. There are large numbers from Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Bulgaria for example. Can also be found in Russia and the Ukraine, though to say they are despised in Russia would be an understatement.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2958 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 52):

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
It's like an infestation of roaches

Ha!
If you live in Oslo then your seeing the 4 that didn't move to Madrid.

   They are everywhere in Madrid.

Can't sit down at a bloody cafe without having a group of four of them swarm you, shove a newspaper in your face, and try to take your cellphone. Hits foreigners the worst.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2261 posts, RR: 7
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 52):
I guess because the bad ones are over here now.

The bad ones are everywhere. But we've had the bad luck that many gypsies settled in Romania and that Rromani and Romania sound identical to the foreign ear.

Romania's not a bad country but many people aren't great. We have a saying: "what a nice country... too bad it's populated". I'm not saying it's heaven on Earth but it's not as bad as the European media portrays it... that's for sure.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 53):
Quite so. There are large numbers from Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Bulgaria for example. Can also be found in Russia and the Ukraine, though to say they are despised in Russia would be an understatement.

YYou can definitely add Hungary to the list. The gypsies in the Hungarian-majority part of Romania speak Hungarian. That doesn't mean they're Hungarian, just that they don't really give a crap where they're born.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This question is the result of a discussion, well disagreement really, I had with a friend the other day. I was approached for money by an obvious vagrant who was in a very sorry-looking state, and I said no, but asked if he was hungry and if he would like something to eat. He said yes, so I duly furnished him with BK burger and a hot cup of coffee. He was very grateful and scoffed the burger immediately.

I once took a girl who was begging into a small restaurant and ordered a little bit to eat and some coffee.. I however refused to give her a single cent, as I suspected that she was on drugs. An intelligent and amusing girl, and some 10 years ago just around 20 and nevertheless possibly now no longer alive.

About three years later, a chap was begging at a rail-station and I invited him for some good but cheap wine in the restaurant just around the corner. No, he was NOT an alcoholic. And an intelligent and well educated chap who had run into trouble out of circumstances. I gave him some pracitcal tips and recommendations, and later learnt the he had become a computer programmer, for a short while working for our computer partner.

But I never give money to beggars


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3870 times:

Sigh. I hate reading these hatefests, because I have a wife, and especially because I have kids, who are Gypsies.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 21):
Avoiding talking about them as a group is just impossibly stupid PC behaviour. They ACT AS A GROUP: a dehumanising organised crime ring built on the abuse of the children and the exploitation of the many for wealth of a few crime bosses. The EU is currently, with its generous policies, providing the perfect 'Petri dish' to ferment their activity and numbers.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. First of all: to equate all Roma to Romanian Vlach Roma begging rings is not only unfair to the many other groups of Roma (and I don't mean Irish travelers, because they are not Roma), but it also unfair to all the Romanian Vlach Roma who are not like that.

You can (and should) make laws about begging and crack down on begging rings and without talking about whole races (or whole cultures) as scum.

Grouping all the Roma in the world together is like grouping all the Jews in the world together, Hasidic and reformed, Ashkenazy and Sephardic, Israeli and French, arch-Zionist and critical of Israel, etc. etc.

It serves nothing, and it does NOT lead to policies that will solve any of the problems you discuss. I challenge you to explain one anti-begging-racket policy that could be made better by framing it in racialized terms. All it does is penalize all the Roma who are integrated and not beggars. And all it does is demean the country that implements the law and subject it to (justified) human-rights and discrimination lawsuits.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
They don't wash. That's the truth.. Back in Romania and Bulgaria they will not live in a house with a toilet inside, even if given for free. It's "against their culture".

You can find some people from any group who will be examples of what you claim. I can't speak for sure for Romania and Bulgaria, because I haven't been there, but I am extremely skeptical that what you say is true of more than a small minority of Roma even there. The Roma we do socialize with from those two countries (a few from each) all have very good hygiene, and all of them would just roll their eyes at a generalization like the one you make.

Another reason I doubt your statement is that I've heard people say similar things about Czech Roma, and there I can say from plentiful experience that if you go in a Romany home in the Czech Republic, even if there are all kinds of other social problems, you will find it spotless, except for a very few cases of Roma in ghettos at the very bottom of the social scale--I mean people who are so far gone on gambling and drugs that they have lost it. I've been in probably over a hundred Romany households in the Czech Republic, in different parts of the country, and 99% are neater and more hygienic than the ethnic Czech homes I have been in.

But once again we are back to the whole problem of generalizations of whole cultures and races. While there is high petty crime, alcoholism, unemployment, sometimes street gangs, etc. among Roma in the Czech Republic, they don't run large-scale crime rings or begging rackets. Yet they are just as detested--actually more than in most other countries. When we are in the Czech Republic my kids have been cursed at. They've been almost beaten up on the playground (by an adult). And the stuff that doctors, nurses, and so forth say in front of them is simply shameful.

To repeat, in most countries besides Romania, Roma don't run organized crime begging rackets and don't live in mansions. The beggars who are causing so much trouble across Europe are all from one particular sub-group of Roma.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 55):
That doesn't mean they're Hungarian, just that they don't really give a crap where they're born.

Again, I try to speak from experience; in the case of Hungary I only know some Hungarian Roma. But we have a good friend who has lived in Hungary with a lot of Roma. None of them "don't give a crap where they're born." A few (as in the Czech Republic) don't like the majority population. But it's because they have been continually bullied, shat on, and discriminated against. Not in any way because of some "nomadic" genes or whatever the Hungarians attribute it to. Our friend has seen the same types of job discrimination and education discrimination there as in the Czech Republic and Slovakia--and I'm sure Bulgaria and Romania as well.

The level of prejudice from school administrators, doctors, landlords, employers, night-club bouncers, etc. etc. etc. is like something from another century in many cases. I have witnessed it repeatedly. It is saddest when it is directed toward children--including mine, which has happened multiple times. My children are clean and well-dressed. But they are Roma as everyone there can tell by their skin color.

Most of my wife's relatives and many Romany friends have been threatened or attacked by skinheads more than once. Most have been turned away from jobs (and no they don't smell) and school places. Most have been abused by neighbors. The lighter-skinned ones are "in the closet" often so their employers and neighbors leave them alone. It is outlandish. The ones who have left the country have left because of these reasons, not to go beg or exploit.

There is plenty of blame to go around, but if countries want to pretend they are "modern," then discrimination has to be tackled alongside implementing any "law and order" clampdowns. Oh, and sentences have to be commensurate (another kind of discrimination). Right now, "youths" who throw Molotov cocktails into Romany houses get a slap on the wrist and a wink from the public prosecutors, while Roma who curse at the police can get multiple-year sentences.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 30):
Furthermore, their whole culture is based on un-traditional work... but, preferably, separating suckers from their money.

That is not true for many of them. And again, it conflates many different groups of Roma. And it leads to constant discrimination.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 43):
BTW, what's with all the hate-speech over Gypsies? Wow, sounds like a call for ethnic cleansing-----whaaaaat-----from our peace loving and liberal membership? Don't say it's true!

Unfortunately, the fact is that in western Europe there is a serious and very acute problem with regard to Roma gypsies from eastern Europe. They often arrive with nothing, are prolific and very organised beggars who don't think twice aboutusing or exploiting children, and are responsible for a lot of petty crime. I wish it wasn't so, but it's real. In the UK the Police have regularly bemoaned the fact that little can be done to prevent the presence of those who only want to take. It's not 'hate', it's an understandable reaction to the facts.

Problematic and somewhat ignorant. Who is the "they" here? Because except for the one subgroup, they are not "prolific and very organize beggars"--in fact they are not beggars at all. The thing is, for example, in the UK, there are Roma who come (largely from Romania) as part of begging rings. But there are also many Roma who come from Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and even also Romania, who simply come to work and make better lives. When we lived in London, my wife volunteered with them helping with English courses, etc. There is definitely entrenched poverty and a lack of social networks to push for the best education etc., but these Roma have nothing to do with the street beggars. And in fact, they tend to curse at them--"for giving us a bad name" (I've seen that a few times).

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
The problem is that they have long been victimised in their own countries, treated as second-class citizens for generations.

That's true. And they still are. That doesn't excuse criminal behavior. I will not make excuses and claim that people aren't responsible for their actions if they are picking pockets or something. But it does help explain it.

Again, you have to work from both sides, and...shocker...if you want to help Roma, you have to actually have Roma involved in the efforts, not just come up with patronizing throwing of money at situations and patronizing policies that are supposed to "fix" their culture.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 55):
But we've had the bad luck that many gypsies settled in Romania

Hmmm...maybe that's because you kept them as slaves for several centuries. After that, your government can try to make it illegal for them to call themselves their own word for themselves, Romany (because it sounds like Romania), but they don't have much moral capital there, do they? Now, again, I think people have to take responsibility for their actions in the modern world, but the fact remains that all of the most secretive and separatist groups of Roma are descended from those slaves. That includes those coming out of Romania recently and the majority of the Roma that settled in the US until recently.
__________________________________________________________________
In sum, instead of all the racializing, how about some common sense policy:

--Never give money to beggars. Just give food, if the person says they want it.
--Wherever there are organized begging rackets (in most cases run by Vlach Romanian Roma, but in cases that have nothing to do with Roma as well) smash the rings, arrest the ring leaders, deport the leaders (or middlemen), help the victims at the bottom of the chain, especially the kids. The beggars will clear out quickly.
--If a person is begging with a kid who is school aged and not in school, or if the kid looks drugged, report it to the local children's authorities. In many cases, their hands may be tied, but sometimes it can help.

[Edited 2013-01-27 20:58:18]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
to equate all Roma to Romanian

you indeed cannot equate all gypsies with each other or with Romanians or all Romanians with each other . Most of all Gypsies and most of all Romanians do not have a sentence of justice on their records.

The problem is that people in Western Europe since 1990 have seen that
- many Gypsies ARE Romanians
- that a good share of Romanians abroad ARE Gypsies
- that many Gypsies ARE involved in crime

Alright, out of my "facial features" I am often regarded as a Gypsy so what --- I am not a better person I am just not one of them


User currently onlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2261 posts, RR: 7
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):

Sorry I won't reply to all your specific points. I will, however, address some.

I do not think that Gypsies/Rroma are by blood inferior to anyone else. That's ridiculous.

However, when I see a culture that marries girls off at 12 years old or forbids them from going to school after they're 12 years old (I've heard these countless times), I do have a problem.

I also have a problem when a gypsy kills one of my best friend's friend. I also have a problem when Europe discriminates against a nation or a few because of a minority, again because of a lack of education.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
You can (and should) make laws about begging and crack down on begging rings and without talking about whole races (or whole cultures) as scum.

Unfortunately, this is the same all over the world. Including in the civilized USA.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
After that, your government can try to make it illegal for them to call themselves their own word for themselves, Romany (because it sounds like Romania), but they don't have much moral capital there, do they?

I see. Because our government has people in it who are 200 years old, and it's the same one as in 1855. The people in that government are bigger criminals than those pickpocketing on the streets of Madrid or London.

BTW, the US government is basically the same. Plus, they criminalized slavery at exactly the same time.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
education discrimination

I've heard about one Rroma girl going to the Sorbonne. Good for her. Plus, I know of no one who will impede the progress of any one who knows their stuff and behaves well because of their race. Considering you can apply to most schools/universities under "minority seats", I don't think you can say there's discrimination in education... Then again, there's nothing to verify there's not but my words.

Now, what about all the kids (13-25 age range) in the trains who play their music at ear-deafening levels? Where are their manners and why are 90% of them gypsies?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
And in fact, they tend to curse at them--"for giving us a bad name" (I've seen that a few times).

Why doesn't that happen more often? I understand the gypsy culture emphasizes honor. So, are the beggars outcasts? Why don't we see more about the rest of the Gypsies? Not a good story? Why don't they try to sanitize the view about their race?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
That's true. And they still are.

Right, because the UK and France treats Gypsies much better. It's not Romania who tried to send them away just to get rid of them... No, no one really likes them and I wonder why.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
. The Roma we do socialize with from those two countries (a few from each) all have very good hygiene, and all of them would just roll their eyes at a generalization like the one you make.

Why do we not see more of them? Are they hiding? Why is there the fact that every story about these people is negative?

Why do they themselves not fight the prejudice? Why don't they stop the ill-mannered kids from sexually harassing girls or pickpocketing in the bus?

Why do gypsy mothers allow their kids to take a piss in the town square?

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
That is not true for many of them. And again, it conflates many different groups of Roma. And it leads to constant discrimination.

I'm also afraid that it is true (in Romania) that when 17 Gypsies travel together, they do not pay for train tickets, they talk about how many years in prison you get for murder (it's 17 if you're interested) and they shout at Polish tourists minding their own business and going to the bathroom.

It is also true that the guy I sat across from dressed nicer than most Romanians.

I had 2 Gypsies in my 28 people class in middle school. You can't really generalize from that, I suppose. But they were decent people.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
To repeat, in most countries besides Romania, Roma don't run organized crime begging rackets and don't live in mansions. The beggars who are causing so much trouble across Europe are all from one particular sub-group of Roma.

I have heard before that "our" Rroma are particularly bad and that Slovakia and Czech Rep. don't have our problems on the same scale.

Who should I believe? You or my 14 years of experience living in Romania? All I've said in this thread I've seen with my own eyes or have been told by countless sources whom I trust. Not by newspapers or other media sources.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3809 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
I gave him some pracitcal tips and recommendations, and later learnt the he had become a computer programmer, for a short while working for our computer partner.

Kudos to you - great story.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
Because except for the one subgroup, they are not "prolific and very organize beggars"--in fact they are not beggars at all.

If it really is one subgroup then they are extraordinarily prolific, and pretty large in number given that such problems are present in large numbers of towns in countries across western Europe. I fully believe what you've said about your experiences, but you still can't blame people for reacting to an absolutely disgraceful crime and begging racket situation. Discrimination is not to be excused, and I am genuinely grateful for your insight, but this behaviour I will spare no verbal mercy to. I am more than happy though to qualify what I have said with the statement and belief that any law-abiding citizen is welcome here regardless of race or creed. Although it may not be all sections of the Roma community involved, it is nonetheless an utterly intolerable situation which quite frankly is an utter affront to our country and the hospitality it extends. You are quite right when you say it should be stamped on, as this would surely also benefit law-abiding Roma.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 57):
--Wherever there are organized begging rackets (in most cases run by Vlach Romanian Roma, but in cases that have nothing to do with Roma as well) smash the rings, arrest the ring leaders, deport the leaders (or middlemen), help the victims at the bottom of the chain, especially the kids. The beggars will clear out quickly.

I agree strongly with these sentiments. Unfortunately though, if it was this easy then I rather fancy that the problem wouldn't still be so widespread and serious across western Europe.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1925 posts, RR: 32
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

And to you, too. Sorry I won't be able to respond to all your points.

Let's start where we agree completely:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
However, when I see a culture that marries girls off at 12 years old or forbids them from going to school after they're 12 years old (I've heard these countless times), I do have a problem.

Absolutely. People have to live in the modern world. No disagreement.

I feel the same way about most religious extremists of all religions or cultures. But, just as I have a problem equating all Muslims with Wahabbists or all Jews with Hasidim who stone people's cars when they drive on the Sabbath and such, I know that almost all Roma don't do that outside the Vlach/Vlax (the main Romanian-slave descended group) and some groups of British travelers who are Roma.

Romania really does have a situation that is quite different from other countries--and so the "Roma problem" in different places should not be conflated.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I see. Because our government has people in it who are 200 years old, and it's the same one as in 1855. The people in that government are bigger criminals than those pickpocketing on the streets of Madrid or London.

BTW, the US government is basically the same. Plus, they criminalized slavery at exactly the same time.

I'm not blaming the current Romanian government, nor current Romanians, for what happened until the 1850s. Indeed, it was liberal Romanian nationalists who largely freed the slaves held by the Orthodox church and the boyars.

But I am saying that given the long history of their enslavement there it is pretty ridiculous for Romania to try to officially legislate what Roma can call themselves abroad. Or to complain that it is their bad luck there are more Roma there than in other countries, since the slave history is why.

And I am also saying that slavery messes people up, and the fact that almost all the begging rackets, underage marriage, etc. come from the one group of Roma who were slaves for centuries is ultimately not very surprising.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I do not think that Gypsies/Rroma are by blood inferior to anyone else. That's ridiculous.

That's a great start. Sadly, more than half of Czechs (and I'm sure many others) don't share your sentiments. When you have your adoption social workers warning you about the genetically criminal and/or nomadic "mentality" of the kids you are adopting, when your doctors say things like this, when teachers regularly act on these assumptions in the classroom, when you hear it day in day out, and when you know multiple people whose friends have stopped talking to them upon finding out their ethnicity, you can begin to see why the perpetuation of the current situation is not one-sided.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Plus, I know of no one who will impede the progress of any one who knows their stuff and behaves well because of their race.

Walk a day in the shoes of a Rom in Central or Eastern Europe. Apply for a couple of jobs, and try to place your kids in the local school with your Romany last name, and you will soon know of many people who impede that progress.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I also have a problem when a gypsy kills one of my best friend's friend.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend's friend. I have a problem (understatement) with anyone murdering anyone. But while I understand the psychology of being angry and of blaming the group, I still also have a problem with someone who says, "I hate black people because a n**** killed my friend."

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Considering you can apply to most schools/universities under "minority seats", I don't think you can say there's discrimination in education...

At the university level there is some attempt to offer minority places. (And, by the way, there are more and more Romany university students. There are student clubs I know of, including in European Universities and of European Roma at American universities.) But to have more of this, the universities need to be fed with eariler education. I can't go into details without writing pages, but the situation with up to 80% of the Romany kids in the Czech Republic and Slovakia (and I think there are similar issues in Hungary) being segregated into special schools for the mentally retarded at the age when they start primary school is well-known. Only after recently losing a class-action lawsuit in the European Court of Human Rights on behalf of various Romany parents who wanted to have their kids get better educational opportunities did the Czech Republic make (cosmetic) changes made to this system, with the special schools renamed as vocational schools etc. But in many ways the situation persists. "Ghetto" parents with little education and who see little value in educating their kids if they won't be able to get a job anyway in many cases due to discrimination are definitely part of the problem. But so are the racist school psychologists who do the testing, and often place the kids in "special schools" openly because of their ethnicity, or because "their Czech isn't good enough"--as though that would be an excuse to put a Chinese immigrant in a school for the mentally handicapped. Force education integration (across Europe) at a young age, and you have the beginning of a real solution. (My guess is that most Roma in Romania as well don't have equal access to primary education, for a complex variety of reasons, both internal and external to "their culture"...)

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
Right, because the UK and France treats Gypsies much better. It's not Romania who tried to send them away just to get rid of them... No, no one really likes them and I wonder why.

Well, let's take the UK example: a recent report of Romany schoolchildren in the UK who came from the Czech Republic and Slovakia found that almost all had been put in schools for the retarded back in their home countries. (Many of the parents listed this at the top of their reasons for emigrating to the UK.) The study found that despite the kids being behind, having language difficulties, and having parents who were also uneducated and did not speak English, only a single-digit percent were found to actually belong in special schools, while most were catching up to average levels of achievement, and some were now University-bound.

There are differences in discrimination laws and attitudes across Europe--although there is racism everywhere in the world.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):

Why do we not see more of them? Are they hiding? Why is there the fact that every story about these people is negative?

Why do they themselves not fight the prejudice? Why don't they stop the ill-mannered kids from sexually harassing girls or pickpocketing in the bus?

Why do gypsy mothers allow their kids to take a piss in the town square?

Same reason that white Scottish people from the worst slums in Glasgow don't fix all these same problems themselves. Or street gangs in Los Angeles. Entrenched poverty and separation from mainstream society developing into an angry and oppositional mentality that is hard to break.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):

I'm also afraid that it is true (in Romania) that when 17 Gypsies travel together, they do not pay for train tickets, they talk about how many years in prison you get for murder (it's 17 if you're interested) and they shout at Polish tourists minding their own business and going to the bathroom.

I'm sure that is sometimes true. And there are plenty of people in America who would say that all that is "true" of blacks in this country. But the point is that it isn't true of other groups of Roma, or of other groups of blacks. And it isn't fair to hold it against all of them.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I had 2 Gypsies in my 28 people class in middle school. You can't really generalize from that, I suppose. But they were decent people.

I bet they paid for their train tickets then, and didn't discuss murdering people. So, should those two people be expected to spend their lives overcompensating for everything people think about them?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I also have a problem when Europe discriminates against a nation or a few because of a minority, again because of a lack of education.

Then you will understand that that is what most Roma across most of Europe face most of the time. They are blamed not only for their own group's "problem" cases, but on top of that are generally associated with the most "problematic" group of Roma in Europe generally.

The lack of education is plenty to go around--and more education, of all kinds, would benefit all Roma, and all ethnically white Europeans.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 59):
I have heard before that "our" Rroma are particularly bad and that Slovakia and Czech Rep. don't have our problems on the same scale.

Who should I believe? You or my 14 years of experience living in Romania? All I've said in this thread I've seen with my own eyes or have been told by countless sources whom I trust. Not by newspapers or other media sources.

I'm not sure what you mean here, as the first and second parts of your quote seem to contradict. In any case, all I've said here too I have also seen with my own eyes or been told by countless sources I trust--good friends and relatives.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
Although it may not be all sections of the Roma community involved,

In begging and organized crime across Western Europe it is 99% Romanian or Romanian-descended Vlach Roma.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
If it really is one subgroup then they are extraordinarily prolific, and pretty large in number given that such problems are present in large numbers of towns in countries across western Europe.

They are extraordinarily prolific. It's a shame. Having said all that, it's important to remember that even within this sub-group, there are MANY who want to live normal lives, get educations, and be integrated. So I reiterate that the way to stop begging rackets is not to make generalizations about Roma culture or any part of it even, but to smash begging rackets.

[Edited 2013-01-28 07:46:25]


It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3780 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting n229nw (Reply 61):
So I reiterate that the way to stop begging rackets is not to make generalizations about Roma culture or any part of it even, but to smash begging rackets.

Agreed.   



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6056 posts, RR: 29
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3703 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 54):
take your cellphone

I have only ever heard of that when I travel to Europe. I don't see or hear about much of that in the USA. A buddy of mine is police detective in Halle, Germany and he tells me of all the pick pockets in the big cities. That kind of thing goes on in the USA, but it doesn't seem to go on to the extent it does in Europe. Here in Detroit if you try and pick pocket a guy you are likely to have a weapon drawn on you, so I bet that deters some pick pockets. Also here in Detroit there are people who might just shoot you if you walked up and stole their cell phone.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 56):
I however refused to give her a single cent, as I suspected that she was on drugs

I saw a girl begging with a gas can a couple of years ago. Some friends and I were walking into a restaurant and she approached us for gas money. I told her "you are going about this scam all wrong, you have to do it at the gas station or next to a car". She said she wasn't scamming and she ran out of gas, but she went on to say that she drove to the area and ran out of gas and couldn't get home. I asked her why she would drive so far, without gas money. She walked away and hassled other people for a while. She looked like a total drug addict too so I was pretty sure she didn't need gas, she probably didn't even have a car.

A few years ago I had a guy try that scam on me at the gas station. I was filling up gas cans for my garden equipment so I when this dude came and said " I need money for gas" I gave him one of my 2 gallon cans. he walked over to a truck and it looked like he was pouring it in. He brought me the can back and said thanks. When I picked up the can to put it in my truck I found it still had all the gas it. My guess is that wasn't his truck, because even if he wanted the money he surely would have taken the gas. Either it wasn't his truck or it was already full.

A couple of years ago some girl (fairly good looking) came up to me at a gas station in Dayton, Ohio, and begged for gas money. I gave her nothing, but I watched her boyfriend come out of the gas station with a bunch of smokes and two big bottles of pop. Nothing like begging for gas money, but paying for crap.

If you ever need a place to see some beggars come to the car wash at Vanborn and Beech-Daly Roads in Taylor, Michigan. You can't be there more than 15 minutes during nice weather without having some begger hit you up. I once had the opposite of a beggar hit me up. Some scruffy looking bum offered me $9 to take him to DTW. I asked him if he was going to a bum convention. He said that the begging was good near the rental car area. I didn't give him a ride, but I'm sure somebody took him there.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 58):
that many Gypsies ARE involved in crime

I never met any that weren't. They might not have been out robbing people with a knife or a gun, but they were ripping people off with home improvement and landscaping scams.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

I save my money so I can give it away later. I don't spend it.

There are exceptions. In ~2010 a guy gave me a good rap (not slick, pretty inarticulate). I literally believed him. I gave him what I had ($10)! If you believe someone, you should give. How often does that happen? Almost never.  


User currently offlineLO231 From Belgium, joined Sep 2004, 2392 posts, RR: 23
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Romas ruin it for those really in need...

As many of us in Europe, I don't carry cash on me, using my ATM card everywhere... Once Roma lady with a baby in her hands attracted my attention. it was not winter or cold, so I bought her bread, milk and some fruit.

She spit at me. She wanted money.

Why do I feel ashamed?



Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
User currently offlinenickh From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3614 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 54):
Can't sit down at a bloody cafe without having a group of four of them swarm you, shove a newspaper in your face, and try to take your cellphone. Hits foreigners the worst.

The same applies in India and other some other Asian countries. India's "Beggar Industry" is well organized and has a plentiful unemployed/uneducated workforce. Reference: the movie "Slumdog Millionaire".

I remember the few times when I travelled to India (Bombay/Mumbai) airport, and just as soon as I was cleared of the main terminals and waiting for a Taxi, the group of youngsters would scurry up and try to grab my bags, yelling "Sahib!, Sahib! etc. Sometimes the taxi drivers are in cahoots with the ganglords that control the beggar trade in India. Read the book "Maximum City - Bombay Lost and Found", it contains a good description of the underworld of gangs in Bombay/Mumbai.

The last time that I was there in India was in 1986, and I am sure that things have changed, but if I were to travel there again, I would ask my travel agent to book me a private car and a driver, to pick me up inside the terminal, so I do not have to deal with that again.

-Nick



"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 47
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

I don't give money to beggars. However (if you can compare the two) I do donate money to charities such as UNICEF from time to time.

The last time I was approached by a beggar was while I was waiting for someone to arrive by boat down by the harbour. She came up to me asking for £2 for the bus fare. I had a feeling she had no intention of using the money on the bus, so I politely said no.
As the passengers disembarked the boat, she positioned herself so that everyone would have to walk past her, asking each one for £2 for the bus.
A man stopped and gave her £2, and then carried on. Despite getting the money she required, the girl kept asking every single person by the harbour for more money. Must have been an expensive bus fare.
She even came back to me asking for £2, at which point I just reminded her that she'd already asked me. At that point, her face turned from innocent into annoyed, as if it was my fault she had tried to con me twice.
A taxi driver who clearly knew what the girl was up to told her in a relatively nice tone "You shouldn't go around fooling people", at which point he was less politely told to f*** off.

The obvious problem is, when giving money to beggars, it can be hard to tell which ones actually need it, and if they intend to spend it on something that is actually important.

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Quoting Thom@s (Reply 67):
The obvious problem is, when giving money to beggars, it can be hard to tell which ones actually need it, and if they intend to spend it on something that is actually important.

A related scam comes to mind. There is a lady around me who sells candy for $5. Not only is she not licensed to sell candy, she lies saying she is collecting money for a charity.

She makes $500 a day using this scam!! Not only is this person not a charitable volunteer - she is swindling the public. People like that should be... what's a more polite form of the word "gassed..."


User currently offlineThom@s From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 11951 posts, RR: 47
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 68):
what's a more polite form of the word "gassed..."

Farted upon.

Oh wait, you said more polite...

Thom@s



"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2994 posts, RR: 9
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

About 20 years ago, I was setting up a tailgater at old Three Rivers Stadium when a yellow eyed man approached and asked if I could spare some money. At the time, I always did, but when I reached for my wallet, I realized I'd left it in the car in the center console. I retrieved it and gave him a buck or 2. He thanked me repeatedly. After the game, I returned to the car to find (you guessed it) a smashed window, the console ripped apart, buncha other stuff gone... I guess he thought I ALWAYS store my wallet there. I haven't given a penny since that day.

Anyways...
How 'bout some Cher?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOSZwEwl_1Q



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12270 posts, RR: 25
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

It's interesting to see how many stories people have of being upset with how beggars acted when given money and have then used it as the reason to NEVER give money ever again.

Indeed such actions have upset me, but really all it did was teach me the lesson to presume the recipient will do whatever they want with the money, which can be anything from getting food to buying alcohol/drugs.

This means I tend to only rarely give money, but when I do, I don't get upset about anything the recipient does with it.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Do You Know How To Swim? posted Tue Aug 3 2010 14:38:58 by Tugger
Adults: How Often Do You See/talk To Your Parents? posted Fri Sep 5 2008 15:24:30 by N1120A
At What Price Do You Give Up Your Freedoms? posted Thu Oct 19 2006 14:31:32 by Falcon84
Do You Care About Darfur, And Why Not? posted Wed Oct 4 2006 12:15:29 by AerospaceFan
How Much Do You Want Everton To Win Tonight? posted Wed Feb 8 2006 20:31:55 by Cosec59
Kazaa Sucks, What Do You Types Use To Download? posted Wed Jul 13 2005 06:29:32 by ConcordeBoy
Do You Use Your Rev Counter? (if You Have One) posted Wed Jul 6 2005 08:37:21 by UTA_flyinghigh
Where Do You Most Want To Go? posted Sun May 22 2005 21:04:05 by Jasepl
Do You Ever Forget To Logoff Msn? posted Thu May 12 2005 07:56:42 by UTA_flyinghigh
What Do You Get Addicted To? posted Thu Apr 7 2005 03:19:20 by Pilot kaz