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BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.  
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5490 posts, RR: 14
Posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Looks like the Boy Scouts of America has decided to change its national policy on gay scouts and gay scout leaders. If I'm reading the article correctly, there will no longer be a national policy on gays, meaning that the local councils, districts and chartered organizations can make the decision.

I'll guess that the majority of the packs that are chartered by religious groups will not change their position (though we may be surprised), I suspect that many non-religious organizations that charter a pack will quietly lift the restriction. Some may even do it noisily.

Definitely a step in the right direction.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...scouts-end-ban-gays-193808487.html


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

But with that said, I'll believe it when I see it actually happen. I'm hoping but the organization has let me down on this several times.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19942 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

Quite simple: hate. Evil people who care more about their hatred of gays than they care about raising boys into men.

I'm an Eagle Scout and I did not send my award back to BSA. I stood there as an example of the outrageous nature of their policy. I am a Stanford-educated, University of Michigan trained pediatrician, an Eagle Scout, and apparently a "bad example."

There was recently the case of the gay teenager who completed his Eagle Requirements, but National refused to grant his Eagle Award in spite of the fact that he earned it.

As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

As a long-time youth member of the Boy Scouts, I welcome this.

This has long been my biggest gripe with National; the absurdity of this policy when, side by side, everything that we stand for in the Boy Scouts is about 'equality', 'openness', 'friendship', and so on. Having such a ridiculous policy has long given the BSA bad press uselessly... the worst part is that it reflects on its membership when many don't agree.

Our council, as far as I know, is not a vigorous enforcer; our troop certainly isn't. It's about bloody time that Irving is getting onboard.


Welcome to the 21st century, National.

Edited to add:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

 checkmark  Agreed fully. No one stands--stood?--to loose anything except the Westboro types.

[Edited 2013-01-28 15:40:15]


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5671 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):


As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

Agreed.

I also agree with not sending your Eagle back. I seriously considered it, but realized the only message it would send is one of defeat... that when the tough gets going, the best thing to do is to quit. That is exactly the opposite that I was taught in Scouting.

What I think is truly sad and indicative of the immaturity of the National board, is that the only reason this "change" has come about is because the largest sponsors have either pulled or threatened to pull their money.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

If you've not seen it before, several years back Penn & Teller had an entire episode of their series Penn & Teller: Bullshit! in regards to the Boy Scouts and their policies regarding gays and atheists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoP1YW72Zk

This decision is a step in the right direction, as some Scouting groups disbanded as they were chartered by schools and local governments and the BSA's policies ran counter to local and state laws that barred government support to groups that are considered to have discriminatory policies. By leaving it up to the individual troops and the organizations they are chartered, those troops whose sponsoring organization have strict policies against gays can still bar their entry but at the same time, those with more tolerant views can freely welcome gays into their troops.

The problem is that there are still a lot of folks in the organization on a national level that are stuck with the outdated mindset that all gays are trying to convert others into being gay and is why it's taken so long to even get this sort of loosening up of things. They have to tread carefully in order to not upset churches like the Mormons, who are the single largest sponsor of Scouting groups in the BSA and they had threatened to pull all of the BSA groups they sponsored from the organization and form their own Scouting group. Something like that would be catastrophic for the BSA.

The various programs within the Boy Scouts are good programs that teach a lot of skills that will come in handy more often than you think. Being an Eagle Scout is something that even those who may not have been in Boy Scouts or never went too far in the program recognize as a really major accomplishment. It's been nearly 20 years since I earned my Eagle Scout rank and it still something that even though I have not been involved in Boy Scouts since the late-90s (I had moved to the other side of town and trying to go to college and work part-time made it difficult to continue to work with my old troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster.) that I am still proud about earning.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

... according to National. That would be an incredulous action here in my neck of the woods. I know several atheists in the Scouts.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?

As far as I know, the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

I talked with my parents, who raised me catholic, about this issue recently.....well, I should say me, followed by the rest of my family, left the church.

I'm pretty happy with the BSA's decision about this. I am an Eagle Scout, and I don't want my position in this magnificent organization misconstrued for homophobia. My mom simply was shocked that they didn't allow gays into the BSA and she applauded the step. My dad too was surprised....we never had to deal with that issue in my particular troop.


However, there was a very contentious issue that came up a few years ago.... one guy in a different troop was stripped of his Eagle Award by his scoutmaster because of his homosexuality. My scoutmaster, risking his own position, brought him into the troop and had the Dan Beard Council issue him one in our troop's name, simply pointing out that "there was no evidence" that this kid was gay, even though he was out and open about it.

Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6724 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4344 times:

I was a cub "Scout de France", the main branch of scouting in France and catholic, with the occasional mass, but no longer priests in the packs (unlike "Scouts d'Europe" who are really conservative) and being gay or atheist never came up, but then again I was a kid and didn't even know what those words meant. Several girls were in love with me and I didn't notice anything either... 

Then my best friend suggested I join his pack of "Eclaireurs Eclaireuses Unionistes de France" (éclaireur means scout in French), the main protestant branch of scouting in France, and I joined despite being catholic. That never came up, as for my friend he was not religious in the least. In 5 years I never put a foot in a temple, there was the occasional prayer around the fire but if you didn't want to participate nothing was made of it.

This pack was actually conservative though, but only on the scouting aspects : we wore the same outfit Baden-Powell had designed, with short shorts and long socks even in the snow, the hat, etc. The last couple of years we were forced to adapt and do parallel camps with girls, most other packs being coed but not ours. The girls didn't feel safe alone so they would set camp a km from us and we would share some activities (and our leaders would fuck their leaders... ).

Frankly sex has nothing to do with scouting and especially when gender segregated it shouldn't even come up, so gay or not gay... On the other hand we were sleeping in tents and all so if one is gay and rejected for that I could see a problem. Maybe a good excuse to go sleep in the girls' tent ? 

Apparently my pack was pretty close to "Traditional Scouting" that I just discovered : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Scouting

10 years later I'm not sure it has survived though. I'm not conservative in the least but I think wearing the uniform most of the time was really a good thing, when we ran into a more modern EEUF coed pack where everybody was in jeans and T-shirts it just looked like a random summer camp.

[Edited 2013-01-28 17:25:35]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4311 times:

This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

The only reason for this so-called change is money. They cannot afford to lose rich, corporate executives who give money or public organization sponsors that cannot support those that discriminate as to GLTB's. Maybe the BSA needs to look at the Girls Scouts, who apparently have no such discrimination policies.


User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.

Possibly, but I expect that a lot more Eagle Scouts who are long past the age of scouting will "come out" now that they no longer have to fear being stripped of their Eagle rank years after they earned it.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19942 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

I agree, but it is a very encouraging measure.

Also, I believe that individual, private churches and troops should be permitted to exclude gays, Jews, or redheads if they so choose. However, given that BSA claims they belong to no one religion, they should not be dictating such a policy to all troops.

However, I agree that the religious requirement is wrong, especially since Unitarian Universalists need not apply.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
The only reason for this so-called change is money.

You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

And you know what? I'll take it. Because it means that public opinion on the matter is turning that quickly. It means that we have a new generation of young people who simply don't do discrimination. They are not interested in it at all. And that makes me very happy. There is hope for us, yet.

And the outcome is that homophobia is going to turn into an irrelevance. It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Good, but, I do have one concern. A quick disclaimer, I'm not anti-gay in any way (except when it comes to teasing Doc   ) but I heard the criticism "would you trust a gay Boy Scout leader on a camping trip, alone in the tent? At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

Basically, I wouldn't be opposed to requiring another adult to be present... I don't see it as anti-gay, I see it along the same lines of not letting a adult male being in a tent with a bunch of young girls. It is a legitimate concern IMO. What are yall's thoughts?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19942 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4220 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

That's no different than the argument that gay men in the military should be barracked separately from straight men for the same reason women are barracked separately.

No, it's actually not for the same reason and it has nothing to do with sex. Straight men and gay men use the same locker room. I have on a few occasions found myself the only adult male in a locker room full of young boys. It is gender that makes the difference, not sexuality.

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

Ah, well, this solves the problem right here



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

It's funny how a loss of donations and membership revenues will impact policy decisions.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Your reasoning seems to follow the logic that gays are pedophiles, which of course is completely untrue

um:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either

So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

100% against National policy. In fact, one can't be alone with a Scout leader; there must be or either another Scout leader or another Scout. I find the last bit to be a little too much, but it is what it is.

No adults in tents. Ever. That would be a serious breach of standards.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

At least it changes. It is a pity, though, that that is what it takes--and not cries from youth and adult membership alike.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5671 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.

Well, they did finally recognize that same-sex attraction is not a choice and that people shouldn't be shunned just because they're gay.

However, they do still think it's proper and healthy to "encourage" people to not act on those feelings and live the live God intended (get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7757 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.

Heck they take it further. I was on Seabase in Florida and I got stung real bad by a jellyfish while snorkeling, and in order for me to get back on the boat, one other scout and a leader had to come off the water and back on the boat with me, so I wouldn't be alone on the boat with the captain. they're serious about this stuff.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?

I'd say it has more to do with accepted societal norms...but we've cornered a double-standard in a way here. The only example I could offer is the one Doc already gave in reply 18.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
You are entirely too eager to throw down the word, "hate,"
Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
a complete lack of knowledge of the difference between a gay person and a pedophile

1. People hate pedophiles.
2. Certain people lack the knowledge to differentiate gays and pedophiles.
3. Therefore the premise follows that certain people hate gays.

I don't think the above argument breaks any of Aristotle's Laws of Thought, so I'd say that Doc's statement holds true.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

When I think Boy Scout, I think late elementary, middle-school - usually aged 10-13. Any dude that showed up at my high school wearing a Boy Scout uniform would have been laughed off campus and would never get laid by any girls. It was seen as un-hip by the time you get to high school. I didn't think guys had anything to do with the Boy Scouts by the time they got to high school.
Then again, I went to school with a bunch of secular humanistic Heathens.   

Cub scout & boy scouts are too young to even identify their sexual orientation. Ironically one of my best friends as a child was in the Cub Scouts as well. His parents put him in a different 'den' than me. His parents thought that I was a bad influence I have no understanding why they thought that when I was only 9 years old. I had older siblings and was hanging out at the local disco rollerskating rink and was picking up the language that the older kids were using.
Anyhow, he turned out to be gay but no one knew that at that early age.

I lost interest in the Scouts when I started to hang around the bad kids. I started playing guitar and listening to metal at age 13. That's when I learned to string guitars, forge absentee notes from school, roll joints, separate the seeds and stems, sneak in to concerts, scope out liquor stores that sold to us minors and locate the sensitive spots on girls - stuff the Boy Scouts didn't teach.


That said, I wouldn't have a problem with someone who is gay serving in the Boy Scouts. Just not sure why one would want to join considering it's a religious organization. We never did anything gay other than go in to the woods and rub sticks together....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 7):
Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?


I was in the Girl Scouts....

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.



You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
(get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).


Oh God, even I'm trying to avoid the married life. Having the same woman in my bed every night and babies crying at 3:00 AM?!?!?   
I'd be traumatized.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3962 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):

You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):

No same Girl Scout would ever look at a Boy Scout....

At least I hope not, for their sake!



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
25 Superfly : Why? How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?
26 Post contains images tugger : Sad thing is that almost every "against" column I have read so far about the possible change (and I think it is very important to remember that this
27 DeltaMD90 : Well I know that is the classic line, and I'm not going down that road, but I can see how it might seem that way. I keep going back to the whole "don
28 Post contains images Braniff747SP : It's about how Boy Scouts act when alone and not in the presence of others... The Girl Scouts are nothing more than a cookie-selling ring. And that p
29 Superfly : Has nothing to do with a Girl Scout liking a Boy Scout. There are many Boy Scouts that probably don't even agree or even know about the gay ban. View
30 Post contains images tugger : And whether one is homosexual or not is not an indicator of whether that person is a good person, a good leader, dangerous or "safe". People need to
31 tugger : I think you are missing something. Most (pretty much much all) of what I posted above was in fun and jest. Tugg
32 DocLightning : I earned my Eagle award in 7th grade. But then I was the Senior Patrol Leader. And after that, I became a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster until I turned
33 Post contains images Braniff747SP : I've been a card-carrying Boy Scout for eight years; I have never agreed with this policy. Most in my troop don't agree or don't even know it exsists
34 DocLightning : Nothing to do with that. BSA commanded a lot of respect until their idiotic position in 1996.
35 slider : Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyper
36 tugger : I think it ultimately comes down to respect and "value" and if people are respected by those around them or diminished in value by the action (or ina
37 Superfly : As it should be with any organization about this. Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.
38 srbmod : Most troops don't care what the religious beliefs of their members are. Pretty much everyone that was a member of the troop I was in didn't even atte
39 Post contains images DocLightning : I can handle "holding a belief." I can't handle telling people that they aren't allowed to do something or to join a group just because of some inher
40 hOmsAR : Is this any different than how boy non-scouts act when alone and not in the pres...(okay, that last part is just redundant)?
41 Maverick623 : Sorry, Revelation already tried this tactic, and it failed miserably. You can generalize differences in beliefs all you want, but at the end of the d
42 Braniff747SP : You don't generally have thirty boys or so together on a weekend in the middle of nowhere. You'd be surprised. Absolutely. Most troops don't give a d
43 DocLightning : I, for one, will be quite happy to see them go. They can start their own Baptist Scouts of America where they can be as exclusionary as they like, fo
44 Braniff747SP : Fully agreed. The nuts can go, for all I care.
45 mham001 : Frankly, I don't understand how they can do this. In so far as Scout "leaders", the BSA has ample experience with men "leaders" messing around with li
46 Darksnowynight : They do what I do when my daughter hosts a sleep-over w/her friends and don't literally sleep in the same room/tent/whatever with them. It's pretty s
47 Braniff747SP : Pedophiles are pedophiles, regardless of orientation. You see controversy about the molesting of boys in the Boy Scouts because there are only boys i
48 DeltaMD90 : Well I think that gay men would have a higher tendency to molest boys, just like I would think straight guys would have a higher tendency to molest g
49 mham001 : Actually, the facts are there. While it is true that some pedophiles will take whatever is available, a higher percentage of convicted pedophiles ass
50 TheCommodore : Remember the Romans..... They loved boys company in the saunas, bathing pools. Massages and rub downs by boys on men were the norm back then etc Exce
51 Braniff747SP : It happens. However, it is tatamountly unfair to exclude a portion of society merely because there is a higher risk of molestation from them. Molesta
52 flipdewaf : I wonder if there is more molestation cases in the BSA associated with people who describe themselves as Christian or those who describe themselves a
53 AeroWesty : As a former cub and boy scout, I've watched this whole situation play out from afar over the years with a bit of sadness. Perhaps it comes from my rel
54 tugger : So what you are saying is that you are likely to be a pedophile? Wow, that's horrible, you really must get help. I mean with what you are saying, the
55 DocLightning : I disagree. But your point is moot. Gay men are no more likely to be child molestors than straight men are. The vast majority, in fact, are men diddl
56 AeroWesty : Maybe one day scoutmasters will first have to successfully pass a 'libido meter' test, to make sure they aren't sexually aroused by children of eithe
57 mariner : There are numerous reasons for it and some of it has to do with a pervasive (if depressing) attitude to women. Within the Girl Scout movement, adult
58 Braniff747SP : Unless I'm misreading what your post says (I'm quite tired) I'm agreeing with you. It is unfair to exclude gays from the Scouts merely because they *
59 DocLightning : I think I misread yours.
60 sccutler : Not everyone who disagrees with who someone is, is doomed to hate that someone. They may be terribly wrong for their basis of disagreement, ill-inform
61 DocLightning : When you refuse to be re-informed and you basically take the attitude of: "I don't want those people around me," then it's hate. And yes, I hate bigo
62 tugger : Doc, while I understand what you are saying, I sadly think it is worse. It is the reduction of a person (adult primarily) to one element. And using t
63 MD-90 : The Southern Baptist Convention churches have no higher incidence of molestation than the general population. That claim is not accurate despite the
64 connies4ever : Yah know, here in Ontario, an openly lesbian woman (who has a wife) has just been promoted to Premier (read: Governor), replacing the previous white-s
65 WestJet747 : Until she gets voted out in the next election for claiming in her victory speech that she will "continue the legacy" of a man who royally bent Ontari
66 Post contains links 2707200X : I think the BSA is going to make the right decision when it comes to allowing gays in the organization. To the critics of allowing gays in the organiz
67 DocLightning : At no point does it mention "SEXUALLY" straight. And since there is nothing inherently immoral about sex, I don't see how the Oath applies. And if yo
68 connies4ever : Nothing in politics is a given, you should know that. I would predict Ms Wynne will proclaim a 'new era' in provincial politics, tie everything finan
69 sccutler : You likely would. Not necessarily. It could be rooted in cultural factors or (again) simple ignorance. Agree there - whether rooted in ignorance, stu
70 DeltaMD90 : What do you disagree with, may I ask?
71 mham001 : You make my point exactly. There are certain places where I am not welcome as a straight male. One example is sitting next to a child travelling on a
72 mariner : Because that's my experience - both at a Catholic school and afterwards. The talk of it was common currency at my school, we knew exactly who the pri
73 Braniff747SP : Pedophiles don't *need* access to boys in the BSA. Gays, however, should not be excluded from being legitimate leaders; you can't convince me that be
74 jpetekyxmd80 : Um, you do realize that the highest profile instance regarding this issue was a mother pack leader getting kicked out for being a lesbian, right? You
75 sccutler : If you refer to disagreeing in the context of that quote, nothing. I do disagree with the notion that every person who believes gays should not be Sc
76 Post contains links tugger : Funny, you actually miss the point entirely. Based on your reasoning, no human should interact with another because there is something near a 100% ch
77 DocLightning : Our Scoutmaster had two girls. But he was our Scoutmaster even though he had no son in the troop. He was amazing. He was one of my life heroes and ser
78 Darksnowynight : Good point, if I read you right... Seriously though, I do wonder what these policies really believe they are achieving. Would a "gay" pedophile not s
79 Post contains links and images Superfly : It's possible. Watch this video that warns young boys about the 'homosexual' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijbovskICjk No but they're usually the be
80 zckls04 : FWIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin. Some on the religious right have tried to prove the exact opposi
81 Quokkas : How much of your experience is with girls who have been through similar situations? Please note, my question is not hostile but simply wishing to cla
82 mariner : Well, there's post #57 in which I talk of my family's and my experience with girls - my nieces. My nieces (and others I have talked to) felt violated
83 DocLightning : Pedophiles are not straight or gay. They do not have an adult sexual orientation. They are pedophiles.
84 Darksnowynight : Not when I'm in the room, they're not. Given the sheer number of heteros vs homos, I'd say that's a very reasonable finding indeed. I'm not sure abou
85 mham001 : Yes, the common theme among excusers. Of course there will be more hetero abusers, they make up 97% of the population. What is being completely ignor
86 AeroWesty : Earlier in this thread there've been examples given of the current BSA policy whereby no scout is ever alone with a scoutmaster, whether gay or strai
87 Post contains links tugger : Statistically there is no difference between heterosexual's and homosexual's regarding sexual impropriety with children. The incidence of it occurrin
88 DeltaMD90 : Kinda off topic, and I am not defending pedophile actions, but isn't it normal human nature to be attracted to people of age? I mean it's in your earl
89 zckls04 : More accurately they have two sexualities (usually)- one which governs their relationships with children and one which governs their relationships wi
90 mham001 : More nonsense. Heterosexual and homosexual molesters have long been considered clinical subcategories. Now for statistics. At first glance, they appe
91 jpetekyxmd80 : Glaringly egregious to everyone except yourself is your asinine belief that a man with bad intentions with the boy scouts would simply show up saying
92 zckls04 : Source and source please. Preferably one which controls for the fact that the younger a victim is the less likely they are to report the crime. Since
93 hOmsAR : I'm actually curious, having never looked this up. How does one get an accurate census of homosexuals in the population given the high propensity of
94 Post contains links mariner : As usual, the debate seems to have becomes about the ;sex" in homosexual, as if all gays (young or adult) are horn dogs and only horn dogs. So I looke
95 warri1 : In my world, Men like women. Women like men. Boys like girls, girls like boys. In my world this is normal. I cannot speak for others. In my world, men
96 DeltaMD90 : As pointed out, a scout master, gay or straight, cannot be with a scout alone. It's not a gay problem, it is a pedophile problem. I'm all for disallo
97 DocLightning : Correction: 100.0% of gay men. If someone is attracted to young boys, they are a pedophile. That is not an adult sexual orientation. Pedophiles are N
98 DeltaMD90 : They can't be both? Kind of like bisexual people have two different orientations? I guess what I meant to say are 99% of the people identifying as ga
99 Darksnowynight : Of course. But then you can't really call them homosexual. It would just be another form of bi or pan sexuality.
100 DeltaMD90 : Well I doubt anyone fitting that category would openly admit that, I'm sure they'd identify as gay even if they really aren't. Again, moot point in t
101 tugger : There are a few things that people here are confusing and being confused by. One, there is no firm statistic on the exact percentage of the populatio
102 WestJet747 : So under the conditions you set out above, would you feel that homosexuals could not serve as teachers either? I'm not trying to flame you here, it's
103 DeltaMD90 : It probably is. Honestly, I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread. Half of the replies seem to be towards me arguing something that is already solve
104 Post contains links and images WestJet747 : I never sleep well knowing that the gays are trying to strip me of my heterosexual rights with their evil gay agenda! Might as well. There's nowhere
105 Maverick623 : You do, however: You do not have the right to make stuff up and not be called out for it. If you're implying that gay people somehow "corrupt" or tur
106 warri1 : I most certainly do not think that gay people cannot serve as anything they want. I was trying to make a point about people in positions of trust, su
107 warri1 : See my reply above. I do not make things up. I was stating my opinion. I stick by it.
108 Maverick623 : Honestly, it sounds like you're in denial about your true feelings on the subject in an attempt to deflect any criticism. That's okay... it has happen
109 mt99 : So wait - are you suggesting that only Heterosexual men should teach boys, and that Heterosexual women should teach girls? Boys should not deal with
110 WarRI1 : Read into it what you want. I have stated my opinion as I see it. Everyone is entitled to take my words as they see fit.
111 tugger : Yeah, we got that: "I have my opinion and I don't have to say anything or explain anything or have any good reason for my opinion. If you question it
112 WarRI1 : When one realizes that some do not see, nor understand what you are trying to express, it is time to call an end to the discussion from my point of v
113 Post contains images tugger : I do understand what you are saying here. I really do. I just wish I understood what you were meaning and trying to saying about the BSA and their le
114 WarRI1 : I do not take offense. I have been deleted many times, banned for getting into too deep a discussion, some take things too personal and too seriously
115 Post contains links tugger : So the BSA have delayed any decision on changing their policy until May: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/06/us/boy...scouts-policy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 I t
116 Post contains links and images Superfly : Texas governor Rick Perry has weighed in. Perry has taken a hard & firm stance with his position on gays in the Boy Scouts. Perry came out against
117 tugger : And of course Romney has previously come out in support of ending the ban: (Can't get the link to post properly so lets try this: (remove the periods
118 DeltaMD90 : Whatever happens, I hope the government stays out of it. As much as I am against the ban, they are their own, private organization
119 Braniff747SP : That's it. Time to send a letter to Irving. This is absurd.
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