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BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.  
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5470 posts, RR: 14
Posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4486 times:

Looks like the Boy Scouts of America has decided to change its national policy on gay scouts and gay scout leaders. If I'm reading the article correctly, there will no longer be a national policy on gays, meaning that the local councils, districts and chartered organizations can make the decision.

I'll guess that the majority of the packs that are chartered by religious groups will not change their position (though we may be surprised), I suspect that many non-religious organizations that charter a pack will quietly lift the restriction. Some may even do it noisily.

Definitely a step in the right direction.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...scouts-end-ban-gays-193808487.html


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4458 times:

Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

But with that said, I'll believe it when I see it actually happen. I'm hoping but the organization has let me down on this several times.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

Quite simple: hate. Evil people who care more about their hatred of gays than they care about raising boys into men.

I'm an Eagle Scout and I did not send my award back to BSA. I stood there as an example of the outrageous nature of their policy. I am a Stanford-educated, University of Michigan trained pediatrician, an Eagle Scout, and apparently a "bad example."

There was recently the case of the gay teenager who completed his Eagle Requirements, but National refused to grant his Eagle Award in spite of the fact that he earned it.

As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

As a long-time youth member of the Boy Scouts, I welcome this.

This has long been my biggest gripe with National; the absurdity of this policy when, side by side, everything that we stand for in the Boy Scouts is about 'equality', 'openness', 'friendship', and so on. Having such a ridiculous policy has long given the BSA bad press uselessly... the worst part is that it reflects on its membership when many don't agree.

Our council, as far as I know, is not a vigorous enforcer; our troop certainly isn't. It's about bloody time that Irving is getting onboard.


Welcome to the 21st century, National.

Edited to add:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

 checkmark  Agreed fully. No one stands--stood?--to loose anything except the Westboro types.

[Edited 2013-01-28 15:40:15]


The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):


As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

Agreed.

I also agree with not sending your Eagle back. I seriously considered it, but realized the only message it would send is one of defeat... that when the tough gets going, the best thing to do is to quit. That is exactly the opposite that I was taught in Scouting.

What I think is truly sad and indicative of the immaturity of the National board, is that the only reason this "change" has come about is because the largest sponsors have either pulled or threatened to pull their money.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

If you've not seen it before, several years back Penn & Teller had an entire episode of their series Penn & Teller: Bullshit! in regards to the Boy Scouts and their policies regarding gays and atheists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoP1YW72Zk

This decision is a step in the right direction, as some Scouting groups disbanded as they were chartered by schools and local governments and the BSA's policies ran counter to local and state laws that barred government support to groups that are considered to have discriminatory policies. By leaving it up to the individual troops and the organizations they are chartered, those troops whose sponsoring organization have strict policies against gays can still bar their entry but at the same time, those with more tolerant views can freely welcome gays into their troops.

The problem is that there are still a lot of folks in the organization on a national level that are stuck with the outdated mindset that all gays are trying to convert others into being gay and is why it's taken so long to even get this sort of loosening up of things. They have to tread carefully in order to not upset churches like the Mormons, who are the single largest sponsor of Scouting groups in the BSA and they had threatened to pull all of the BSA groups they sponsored from the organization and form their own Scouting group. Something like that would be catastrophic for the BSA.

The various programs within the Boy Scouts are good programs that teach a lot of skills that will come in handy more often than you think. Being an Eagle Scout is something that even those who may not have been in Boy Scouts or never went too far in the program recognize as a really major accomplishment. It's been nearly 20 years since I earned my Eagle Scout rank and it still something that even though I have not been involved in Boy Scouts since the late-90s (I had moved to the other side of town and trying to go to college and work part-time made it difficult to continue to work with my old troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster.) that I am still proud about earning.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

... according to National. That would be an incredulous action here in my neck of the woods. I know several atheists in the Scouts.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinetype-rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?

User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?

As far as I know, the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

I talked with my parents, who raised me catholic, about this issue recently.....well, I should say me, followed by the rest of my family, left the church.

I'm pretty happy with the BSA's decision about this. I am an Eagle Scout, and I don't want my position in this magnificent organization misconstrued for homophobia. My mom simply was shocked that they didn't allow gays into the BSA and she applauded the step. My dad too was surprised....we never had to deal with that issue in my particular troop.


However, there was a very contentious issue that came up a few years ago.... one guy in a different troop was stripped of his Eagle Award by his scoutmaster because of his homosexuality. My scoutmaster, risking his own position, brought him into the troop and had the Dan Beard Council issue him one in our troop's name, simply pointing out that "there was no evidence" that this kid was gay, even though he was out and open about it.

Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6692 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4330 times:

I was a cub "Scout de France", the main branch of scouting in France and catholic, with the occasional mass, but no longer priests in the packs (unlike "Scouts d'Europe" who are really conservative) and being gay or atheist never came up, but then again I was a kid and didn't even know what those words meant. Several girls were in love with me and I didn't notice anything either... 

Then my best friend suggested I join his pack of "Eclaireurs Eclaireuses Unionistes de France" (éclaireur means scout in French), the main protestant branch of scouting in France, and I joined despite being catholic. That never came up, as for my friend he was not religious in the least. In 5 years I never put a foot in a temple, there was the occasional prayer around the fire but if you didn't want to participate nothing was made of it.

This pack was actually conservative though, but only on the scouting aspects : we wore the same outfit Baden-Powell had designed, with short shorts and long socks even in the snow, the hat, etc. The last couple of years we were forced to adapt and do parallel camps with girls, most other packs being coed but not ours. The girls didn't feel safe alone so they would set camp a km from us and we would share some activities (and our leaders would fuck their leaders... ).

Frankly sex has nothing to do with scouting and especially when gender segregated it shouldn't even come up, so gay or not gay... On the other hand we were sleeping in tents and all so if one is gay and rejected for that I could see a problem. Maybe a good excuse to go sleep in the girls' tent ? 

Apparently my pack was pretty close to "Traditional Scouting" that I just discovered : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Scouting

10 years later I'm not sure it has survived though. I'm not conservative in the least but I think wearing the uniform most of the time was really a good thing, when we ran into a more modern EEUF coed pack where everybody was in jeans and T-shirts it just looked like a random summer camp.

[Edited 2013-01-28 17:25:35]


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

The only reason for this so-called change is money. They cannot afford to lose rich, corporate executives who give money or public organization sponsors that cannot support those that discriminate as to GLTB's. Maybe the BSA needs to look at the Girls Scouts, who apparently have no such discrimination policies.


User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.

Possibly, but I expect that a lot more Eagle Scouts who are long past the age of scouting will "come out" now that they no longer have to fear being stripped of their Eagle rank years after they earned it.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4226 times:

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

I agree, but it is a very encouraging measure.

Also, I believe that individual, private churches and troops should be permitted to exclude gays, Jews, or redheads if they so choose. However, given that BSA claims they belong to no one religion, they should not be dictating such a policy to all troops.

However, I agree that the religious requirement is wrong, especially since Unitarian Universalists need not apply.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
The only reason for this so-called change is money.

You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

And you know what? I'll take it. Because it means that public opinion on the matter is turning that quickly. It means that we have a new generation of young people who simply don't do discrimination. They are not interested in it at all. And that makes me very happy. There is hope for us, yet.

And the outcome is that homophobia is going to turn into an irrelevance. It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4226 times:

Good, but, I do have one concern. A quick disclaimer, I'm not anti-gay in any way (except when it comes to teasing Doc   ) but I heard the criticism "would you trust a gay Boy Scout leader on a camping trip, alone in the tent? At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

Basically, I wouldn't be opposed to requiring another adult to be present... I don't see it as anti-gay, I see it along the same lines of not letting a adult male being in a tent with a bunch of young girls. It is a legitimate concern IMO. What are yall's thoughts?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

That's no different than the argument that gay men in the military should be barracked separately from straight men for the same reason women are barracked separately.

No, it's actually not for the same reason and it has nothing to do with sex. Straight men and gay men use the same locker room. I have on a few occasions found myself the only adult male in a locker room full of young boys. It is gender that makes the difference, not sexuality.

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

Ah, well, this solves the problem right here



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetrav110 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 536 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

It's funny how a loss of donations and membership revenues will impact policy decisions.

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Your reasoning seems to follow the logic that gays are pedophiles, which of course is completely untrue

um:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either

So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

100% against National policy. In fact, one can't be alone with a Scout leader; there must be or either another Scout leader or another Scout. I find the last bit to be a little too much, but it is what it is.

No adults in tents. Ever. That would be a serious breach of standards.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

At least it changes. It is a pity, though, that that is what it takes--and not cries from youth and adult membership alike.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.

Well, they did finally recognize that same-sex attraction is not a choice and that people shouldn't be shunned just because they're gay.

However, they do still think it's proper and healthy to "encourage" people to not act on those feelings and live the live God intended (get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently onlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.

Heck they take it further. I was on Seabase in Florida and I got stung real bad by a jellyfish while snorkeling, and in order for me to get back on the boat, one other scout and a leader had to come off the water and back on the boat with me, so I wouldn't be alone on the boat with the captain. they're serious about this stuff.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?

I'd say it has more to do with accepted societal norms...but we've cornered a double-standard in a way here. The only example I could offer is the one Doc already gave in reply 18.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
You are entirely too eager to throw down the word, "hate,"
Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
a complete lack of knowledge of the difference between a gay person and a pedophile

1. People hate pedophiles.
2. Certain people lack the knowledge to differentiate gays and pedophiles.
3. Therefore the premise follows that certain people hate gays.

I don't think the above argument breaks any of Aristotle's Laws of Thought, so I'd say that Doc's statement holds true.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

When I think Boy Scout, I think late elementary, middle-school - usually aged 10-13. Any dude that showed up at my high school wearing a Boy Scout uniform would have been laughed off campus and would never get laid by any girls. It was seen as un-hip by the time you get to high school. I didn't think guys had anything to do with the Boy Scouts by the time they got to high school.
Then again, I went to school with a bunch of secular humanistic Heathens.   

Cub scout & boy scouts are too young to even identify their sexual orientation. Ironically one of my best friends as a child was in the Cub Scouts as well. His parents put him in a different 'den' than me. His parents thought that I was a bad influence I have no understanding why they thought that when I was only 9 years old. I had older siblings and was hanging out at the local disco rollerskating rink and was picking up the language that the older kids were using.
Anyhow, he turned out to be gay but no one knew that at that early age.

I lost interest in the Scouts when I started to hang around the bad kids. I started playing guitar and listening to metal at age 13. That's when I learned to string guitars, forge absentee notes from school, roll joints, separate the seeds and stems, sneak in to concerts, scope out liquor stores that sold to us minors and locate the sensitive spots on girls - stuff the Boy Scouts didn't teach.


That said, I wouldn't have a problem with someone who is gay serving in the Boy Scouts. Just not sure why one would want to join considering it's a religious organization. We never did anything gay other than go in to the woods and rub sticks together....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 7):
Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?


I was in the Girl Scouts....

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.



You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
(get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).


Oh God, even I'm trying to avoid the married life. Having the same woman in my bed every night and babies crying at 3:00 AM?!?!?   
I'd be traumatized.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3948 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):

You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):

No same Girl Scout would ever look at a Boy Scout....

At least I hope not, for their sake!



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 24):
No same Girl Scout would ever look at a Boy Scout....

At least I hope not, for their sake!

Why?
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
um:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either

So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?

Sad thing is that almost every "against" column I have read so far about the possible change (and I think it is very important to remember that this is only a possible change, it is not decided) has essentially equated the change with pedophilia and allowing access to poor potential victims boys.....

Many cannot understand how this:

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent

....can possibly be compatible with homosexuality. They can't wrap their heads around the fact that being "morally straight" is not the same thing as "sexuality". In my church there are plenty of "moral" and "reverent" people and they encompass homosexuals and heterosexuals (even a few metrosexuals   ). Because it just doesn't matter when it comes to being a good person and doing well in life and helping others what your sexuality is.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?

No banning members for not believing in God, nor banning leaders (or members) for being homosexual.

And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!   

Tugg

[Edited 2013-01-29 09:09:20]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
Sad thing is that almost every "against" column I have read so far about the possible change (and I think it is very important to remember that this is only a possible change, it is not decided) has essentially equated the change with pedophilia and allowing access to poor potential victims boys.....

Well I know that is the classic line, and I'm not going down that road, but I can see how it might seem that way. I keep going back to the whole "don't let men sleep in the same tent as young girls..." it doesn't mean I think they're all pedophiles.

But it's all moot anyway since they have a policy of no boy alone with an adult anyway



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):

Why?
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?

It's about how Boy Scouts act when alone and not in the presence of others...

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!

The Girl Scouts are nothing more than a cookie-selling ring.    


And that popcorn isn't bad, by the way... I used to sell it when I was in Cub Scouts. We don't do that anymore in Boy Scouts, at least in my troop.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
No banning members for not believing in God, nor banning leaders (or members) for being homosexual.



Has nothing to do with a Girl Scout liking a Boy Scout. There are many Boy Scouts that probably don't even agree or even know about the gay ban. Views on gays isn't something most heteros consider when picking a partner. Especially at that age. You're over politicizing and analyzing.

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!



Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak. Many lawyers and activist do not like what the Boy Scouts teach and would rather our young boys go in to touchy, feely sensitive nonsense like poetry and churn out a bunch of wimps. This sounds like a war on men. As far as nut sales go, I had no idea that Boy Scouts had nuts to sale. Are you in line to get some money from a pending lawsuit against the Boy Scouts?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
But it's all moot anyway since they have a policy of no boy alone with an adult anyway

  

And whether one is homosexual or not is not an indicator of whether that person is a good person, a good leader, dangerous or "safe". People need to focus on that and not the hysteria that occurs.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):
The Girl Scouts are nothing more than a cookie-selling ring.

Do not speak such things of the cookie mafia, they'll disappear ya!

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):
And that popcorn isn't bad, by the way...

I've bought my fair share of it. It's good popcorn but it damn well better be for $15.00!

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak. Many lawyers and activist do not like what the Boy Scouts teach and would rather our young boys go in to touchy, feely sensitive nonsense like poetry and churn out a bunch of wimps. This sounds like a war on men. As far as nut sales go, I had no idea that Boy Scouts had nuts to sale. Are you in line to get some money from a pending lawsuit against the Boy Scouts?

I think you are missing something. Most (pretty much much all) of what I posted above was in fun and jest.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3886 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
When I think Boy Scout, I think late elementary, middle-school - usually aged 10-13. Any dude that showed up at my high school wearing a Boy Scout uniform would have been laughed off campus and would never get laid by any girls. It was seen as un-hip by the time you get to high school. I didn't think guys had anything to do with the Boy Scouts by the time they got to high school.

I earned my Eagle award in 7th grade. But then I was the Senior Patrol Leader. And after that, I became a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster until I turned 18 (senior year of HS) at which point I was a Scoutmaster.

I'd love to volunteer with a local troop. I'd love to donate money to BSA. I have a lot to offer, but I can't participate until this rule. And even if I were straight, I still wouldn't participate because this flies contrary to the values of Scouting that I was taught.

Seriously, sex and sexuality were non-issues in my troop. Sure, the boys talked about it amongst themselves (as teenage boys will), but it was never a topic of discussion when Scoutmasters were around.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
There are many Boy Scouts that probably don't even agree

   I've been a card-carrying Boy Scout for eight years; I have never agreed with this policy. Most in my troop don't agree or don't even know it exsists as we have always disregarded the absurd policy.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):

Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak.

Nothing to do with that. BSA commanded a lot of respect until their idiotic position in 1996.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6822 posts, RR: 34
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Quite simple: hate. Evil people who care more about their hatred of gays than they care about raising boys into men.

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because it gets polarized and becomes a divisive crapfest.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because it gets polarized and becomes a divisive crapfest.

I think it ultimately comes down to respect and "value" and if people are respected by those around them or diminished in value by the action (or inaction) of others. It is one thing to devalue an organization, it is quite another to devalue a human being to the point where they don't count. It inspires people to hate and get angry.

Interestingly the entire purpose of organizations like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts is create internal value and respect for oneself. To provide support and encouragement through good work and hard effort, to get people to value and respect themselves by way of tasks they perform, with the support of and as part of a group. To learn that you are important and capable as an individual but also that you are part of something bigger, an important part of a group where if people work together more things get done. So work on yourself, help others, work as a groups and great things can be done.

Ones sexuality really has nothing to do with that, so it never made sense to me why the Boy Scouts organization acted as they did. The only reason I could see really did not fit with what they group was trying to be and teach.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that the policy will change.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Seriously, sex and sexuality were non-issues in my troop.

As it should be with any organization about this.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Nothing to do with that. BSA commanded a lot of respect until their idiotic position in 1996.

Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3800 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):

... according to National. That would be an incredulous action here in my neck of the woods. I know several atheists in the Scouts.

Most troops don't care what the religious beliefs of their members are. Pretty much everyone that was a member of the troop I was in didn't even attend the church that our troop was chartered to (The pastor of the church actually served as Scoutmaster for a time and would always have to leave on Saturday night in order to conduct services the next morning.).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
I was in the Girl Scouts....

Must resist the obvious Brownie joke.....

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
I earned my Eagle award in 7th grade.

That was quick, as you really would have to bust your butt to get it that quickly, especially with the time requirements (rank and leadership position) for Star, Life and Eagle. There was a guy that transferred into our troop that got his Eagle at 13 and at the time he joined our troop, he had also earned about 75% of the merit badges being offered. We used to joke about him needing two merit badge sashes. In several cases, he was the first Scout in the council to earn merit badges that had just been introduced.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

Gays have never been officially allowed, but there never was an official publicly stated policy banning them until sometime in the last 30 years.

One thing to note is that the World Organization Of The Scouting Movement itself has no position on gays nor does the WSOM ban non-theists from membership. Each Scouting organization sets their own policies on allowing gay members and have leeway in regards to religious beliefs; the US program is one of those with a pretty hard-line stance that differs from other Scouting organizations. For example, Scouts Canada and The Scout Association (The UK Scouting organization) allows gays to be members and to hold adult leadership position and those that are atheists or agnostics to be members as well. Then again, they don't have groups like the Southern Baptists and Mormons threatening the national organization with a boycott (There are reports that the Southern Baptists may vote at their next convention whether to continue to support the Boy Scouts in the wake of these changes.).


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

I can handle "holding a belief." I can't handle telling people that they aren't allowed to do something or to join a group just because of some inherent characteristic that has no bearing on the membership at hand. And yes, judging others for their inherent characteristics is hateful, immoral, and evil. I stand by that statement and I will not apologize for it. It is not "I disagree with your views." It is: "I disagree with your existence."

Or are we to tolerate racism as "holding a belief" as well? It is no different than homophobia and neither "belief" has any place in modern society.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
That was quick, as you really would have to bust your butt to get it that quickly, especially with the time requirements (rank and leadership position) for Star, Life and Eagle

Pretty standard in my troop, actually. We were an Eagle machine!  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

There was no policy until 1996. Then an Eagle Scout was denied his award because he was gay and National took it all the way to the Supreme Court who ruled that BSA was a private organization and could discriminate as they please. I suppose I agree with the Court. It's the BSA who I disagree with.


User currently offlinehOmsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):

It's about how Boy Scouts act when alone and not in the presence of others

Is this any different than how boy non-scouts act when alone and not in the pres...(okay, that last part is just redundant)?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Sorry, Revelation already tried this tactic, and it failed miserably.

You can generalize differences in beliefs all you want, but at the end of the day there is simply no other explanation for discriminating against someone because of their sexual orientation than either pure stupidity or hate. That you have a right to a certain belief is not an immunity from honest criticism of that belief, nor does it make that belief actionable.

I know Doc said this, but I did too in a post that got deleted: Switch the word "gay" with "black" in any argument, and see just how hateful it is.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3715 times:

Quoting hOmsAR (Reply 40):
Is this any different than how boy non-scouts act when alone and not in the pres...(okay, that last part is just redundant)?

You don't generally have thirty boys or so together on a weekend in the middle of nowhere.

You'd be surprised.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
Most troops don't care what the religious beliefs of their members are. Pretty much everyone that was a member of the troop I was in didn't even attend the church that our troop was chartered to (The pastor of the church actually served as Scoutmaster for a time and would always have to leave on Saturday night in order to conduct services the next morning.).

Absolutely. Most troops don't give a damn; again, though, there is no reason for the policy.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
(There are reports that the Southern Baptists may vote at their next convention whether to continue to support the Boy Scouts in the wake of these changes.).

I, for one, will be quite happy to see them go. They can start their own Baptist Scouts of America where they can be as exclusionary as they like, for all I care.

Scouting is about learning useful life and leadership skills. It is not about religion. Church (or Synagogue or Mosque or what-have-you) is for religion. I wish Americans would get this through their skulls.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3699 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
I, for one, will be quite happy to see them go. They can start their own Baptist Scouts of America where they can be as exclusionary as they like, for all I care.

Fully agreed. The nuts can go, for all I care.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Frankly, I don't understand how they can do this. In so far as Scout "leaders", the BSA has ample experience with men "leaders" messing around with little boys. It was but a decade ago that BSA was excoriated for covering up rampant child molestation by predominantly gay men.

I know there is going to be howls of protest about "hate", about "religious zealots", and about everything else but empathy for the victims, but the facts are there. We have two very large institutions who have been through horrible scandals involving men with boys. Not men with girls, not women with boys or women with girls but men with boys. Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men? Has human physiology changed in the last 20 years? Do we just forget about the thousands of previous victims?

A few years ago, i went to a Cub Scout camping function. 7-10 year olds. The one and only queen type "leader" was on stage leading some routine with the boys doing nothing but butt jokes and innuendo along with plenty of physical emphasis. i couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing after all the BSA turmoil. It was the last scouting function for my step-son. Just a no institution is going to give me access to an endless supply of supple young girls, nobody with sexual proclivities towards men *needs* access to boys.

As for gay scouts, let them be.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3647 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone.

They do what I do when my daughter hosts a sleep-over w/her friends and don't literally sleep in the same room/tent/whatever with them. It's pretty simple.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....

It means just that if the belief they are holding up is hateful or evil. If you'd like to come up with some euphemisms, you're more than welcome to do so, but it's all the same.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because

Looks to me like an honest discussion is exactly what's happening here.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

According to the video srbmod linked, there was no specific stance on the issue until 1980. In fact, there's a reference to the scoutmaster manual where it says (as rule #2 no less) that they are not to discuss issues of sexuality because "you are probably not qualified." I thought that was funny in the blunt kind of way we probably couldn't get away with nowadays, but I think that says it all right there.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men?

You'd have to ask the Catholic Church that, wouldn't you? They and their counterparts over at the Southern Baptist Convention each (as in not combined) have a much higher incidence of molestation, per capita, of young boys, than the BSA ever did. What's their stance on gays again?


In all seriousness, gays showing kids how to camp (or being kids learning how to camp) is so far down the list of dangers facing our nation that people who worry about it can forget about being taken seriously. What people do not seem to understand is that Pedophilia is not related to one's sexuality any more than domestic violence or any other criminal behavior. If you're going to worry about gays, you need to worry about breeders too.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3644 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):

Pedophiles are pedophiles, regardless of orientation. You see controversy about the molesting of boys in the Boy Scouts because there are only boys in the Scouts.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men?

I have been in the Scouts for several years. I have never, seen anything of concern. Of course, I'm only one in over two million--it happens. However, it has nothing to do with being gay. Pedophilia is something sperate.

Every week, I reaffirm the very basic ideals of Scouting with the Law, Oath, and whatnot. Having said that, I find it ridiculous that National breaks the intrinsic Scout ideas by having discriminatory practices, both for sexual orientation and religious affiliation. For an organization that bases everything on brotherhood, friendship, and cohesion, it demonstrates an incredibly deep fallacy that serves no purpose and only hurts us--the youth membership, the very people the organization exists to serve.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
It was but a decade ago that BSA was excoriated for covering up rampant child molestation by predominantly gay men.

Well I think that gay men would have a higher tendency to molest boys, just like I would think straight guys would have a higher tendency to molest girls. Kinda a misleading statement, of course it would be committed by predominantly gay men.

But, as others have pointed out, it's a policy to not allow an adult and scout to be alone. That there would pretty much stamp it out right there



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3632 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 46):
What people do not seem to understand is that Pedophilia is not related to one's sexuality any more than domestic violence or any other criminal behavior. If you're going to worry about gays, you need to worry about breeders too.
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 47):
However, it has nothing to do with being gay. Pedophilia is something sperate.

Actually, the facts are there. While it is true that some pedophiles will take whatever is available, a higher percentage of convicted pedophiles associate themselves as homosexuals than heterosexual. By far.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 47):
You see controversy about the molesting of boys in the Boy Scouts because there are only boys in the Scouts.

Of course, they are drawn like flies. In the interests of fairness, I am open to revisiting scandals as large as the CC and BSA involving girls. Where are they? With 97% of men associating themselves as heteros, why have we not had these widespread molestations?


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Has human physiology changed in the last 20 years?

Remember the Romans.....

They loved boys company in the saunas, bathing pools. Massages and rub downs by boys on men were the norm back then etc

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
As for gay scouts, let them be.

Except the "Queen types" as you put it, right ?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 48):
But, as others have pointed out, it's a policy to not allow an adult and scout to be alone. That there would pretty much stamp it out right there

Child molestation most likely occurs by a close family relative or friend, this is where the greatest risk is to kids, right under the family's nose and probably not at Scout camps.

But I can understand why there has to be this rules for the BSA.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
Actually, the facts are there. While it is true that some pedophiles will take whatever is available, a higher percentage of convicted pedophiles associate themselves as homosexuals than heterosexual. By far.

I would be VERY interested to read any source for that claim ?

Do you have any ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
Of course, they are drawn like flies. In the interests of fairness, I am open to revisiting scandals as large as the CC and BSA involving girls. Where are they? With 97% of men associating themselves as heteros, why have we not had these widespread molestations?

It happens.

However, it is tatamountly unfair to exclude a portion of society merely because there is a higher risk of molestation from them. Molestation can, and will, happen in the Boy Scouts. Yes, we must do everything we can to mitigate this--but that stops short of not allowing certain people to be members. It's the 21st century.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1575 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3598 times:
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Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 51):
However, it is tatamountly unfair to exclude a portion of society merely because there is a higher risk of molestation from them.

I wonder if there is more molestation cases in the BSA associated with people who describe themselves as Christian or those who describe themselves as homosexual?

Fred


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

As a former cub and boy scout, I've watched this whole situation play out from afar over the years with a bit of sadness. Perhaps it comes from my relatively sheltered suburban upbringing in the 60s/70s, where the most parents had to worry about was whether some kid would be dropping acid on a campout and sharing it with the troop.

One of these days perhaps the scouts may actually go back to scouting, which would be a good thing. Children need to learn about life and develop skills useful in adulthood from somewhere, which is something scouting is particularly good at doing.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
Actually, the facts are there. While it is true that some pedophiles will take whatever is available, a higher percentage of convicted pedophiles

So what you are saying is that you are likely to be a pedophile? Wow, that's horrible, you really must get help. I mean with what you are saying, the truth of the stats also shows that something like 95% of pedophiles are MALE! It means that since you feel these "facts" imply who will molest boys then you must be at really high risk of doing something.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 51):
However, it is tatamountly unfair to exclude a portion of society merely because there is a higher risk of molestation from them.

I disagree. But your point is moot. Gay men are no more likely to be child molestors than straight men are. The vast majority, in fact, are men diddling little girls. In fact, I've only ever seen little girls molested by men and never a child molested by a woman. Oh, sure, there are high-profile cases, but in my pediatric practice, I've only ever seen girls get molested by men.

So perhaps we should ban straight men because there is a higher risk of molestation?

One thing to understand about being gay is that when you step out of that closet, you have done an awful lot of examination of your own sexual orientation. More than most straight men have. Now, I'm of the opinion that pedophiles are driven by a powerful internal sexual urge, so if that sort of self-examination revealed to yourself that you were a pedophile, wouldn't you choose "heterosexual" as your "disguise sexual orientation?" After all, if you are going to diddle kids, it's best to pretend you're a straight guy and get married and have kids and pretend to enjoy sex with your wife. If you come out and say you're gay, people will eye you with suspicion.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
So perhaps we should ban straight men because there is a higher risk of molestation?

Maybe one day scoutmasters will first have to successfully pass a 'libido meter' test, to make sure they aren't sexually aroused by children of either sex. Knowing nothing about how those tests are performed, I've no idea if that's a viable answer, as those tests must cost some dinero.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25332 posts, RR: 85
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3558 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
In the interests of fairness, I am open to revisiting scandals as large as the CC and BSA involving girls. Where are they? With 97% of men associating themselves as heteros, why have we not had these widespread molestations?

There are numerous reasons for it and some of it has to do with a pervasive (if depressing) attitude to women.

Within the Girl Scout movement, adult men with girls attracts attention. In the Boy Scouts few turn a hair - they're all boys together.

Similarly, the Catholic church - where girls are, there are usually nuns, teachers or other females within the vicinity.

If a boy is molested (by a man) and tells, the reaction is usually to get the bastard who did this foul thing. That isn't always true for girls.

In the wider world, girls are (generally) very reluctant to admit they have been molested (shame, guilt, etc, and fear of authority) and often those who do so are persuaded by their mothers not to make a fuss or that it is a woman's lot in life.

My brother-in-law molested his three daughters, one (#3) for five years, and none of them reported it. It only came to light when my sister discovered him in the act, but the other two would not admit to it - then. There were tears, anger, promises not to do it again - but my sister stayed with him because she had invested her life in him and (she felt) she had nowhere else to go.

Years later, he did it with his two grand-daughters, the children (not his) of #3, and then the crap hit the fan. She - #3 - reported it to the police (hell hath no fury?) and the stories of the past came tumbling out.

He went to prison for four years but does not, to this day, believe he did anything wrong. He believes his daughters were his chattels - as too many do.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-29 21:16:51]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
I disagree. But your point is moot. Gay men are no more likely to be child molestors than straight men are.

Unless I'm misreading what your post says (I'm quite tired) I'm agreeing with you.

It is unfair to exclude gays from the Scouts merely because they *might* (I don't believe this--this is in response to mham) pose a higher risk of molesting children.

But maybe I am misreading your post--I've had a long day. If so, I apologize.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 58):
But maybe I am misreading your post--I've had a long day. If so, I apologize.

I think I misread yours.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5536 posts, RR: 28
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Not everyone who disagrees with who someone is, is doomed to hate that someone. They may be terribly wrong for their basis of disagreement, ill-informed, ignorant of reality - but that does not constitute "hate."

[Edited 2013-01-30 09:33:01]


...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 60):
Not everyone who disagrees with who someone is, is doomed to hate that someone. They may be terribly wrong for their basis of disagreement, ill-informed, ignorant of reality - but that does not constitute "hate."

When you refuse to be re-informed and you basically take the attitude of: "I don't want those people around me," then it's hate.

And yes, I hate bigots. But the difference there is that they may choose at any time to stop being bigots and trying to harm other people. Not all hate is bad or unjustifiable.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
When you refuse to be re-informed and you basically take the attitude of: "I don't want those people around me," then it's hate.

Doc, while I understand what you are saying, I sadly think it is worse. It is the reduction of a person (adult primarily) to one element. And using that one element to devalue a person to such a point that they don't count/you use that single criteria to exclude them from things that you consider important to yourself: "He's gay...", "She's black...", "They're Jewish...", "She's a woman, what do you expect, they're weak...", "...so that person should not be allowed to do X"

They ignore skills, character, respect, value, all sorts of truly important elements that make up human beings and use just that one criteria to exclude that person from things. It is sad, it is stupid, but in my opinion at least it is often not "hate" in the classic definition. Again I do understand what you mean, and often it can come from/have roots in hate in the beginning but in the end it becomes carelessness and ignorance.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-01-30 11:13:20]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 46):
You'd have to ask the Catholic Church that, wouldn't you? They and their counterparts over at the Southern Baptist Convention each (as in not combined) have a much higher incidence of molestation, per capita, of young boys, than the BSA ever did. What's their stance on gays again?

The Southern Baptist Convention churches have no higher incidence of molestation than the general population. That claim is not accurate despite the impression you may get from the media. That is ever happens at all is awful but unfortunately molesters exist in all faiths and those without any faith at all.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Yah know, here in Ontario, an openly lesbian woman (who has a wife) has just been promoted to Premier (read: Governor), replacing the previous white-starch family man. You guys have to catch up.


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3384 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 64):
Yah know, here in Ontario, an openly lesbian woman (who has a wife) has just been promoted to Premier (read: Governor)

Until she gets voted out in the next election for claiming in her victory speech that she will "continue the legacy" of a man who royally bent Ontario over and really gave it to us.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 60):
Not everyone who disagrees with who someone is, is doomed to hate that someone. They may be terribly wrong for their basis of disagreement, ill-informed, ignorant of reality - but that does not constitute "hate."

What if I disagreed with someone for being Asian? Would I not be a racist? Is racism not rooted in hate?

It's not really any different in the case of homosexuals.



Flying refined.
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8545 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

I think the BSA is going to make the right decision when it comes to allowing gays in the organization. To the critics of allowing gays in the organization this is not about people hitting on other people or allowing gay activity in the scouts, this is about allowing people to meet and exceed the goals, challenges and provide the services to the community that the scouts are known for not about misusing the term (...and morally straight) in the Boy Scout Oath as a bar for those who are not "straight" http://www.usscounts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp. The scouts are finding out that people who are gay and straight are fighting for more equality in the scouts. I am a proud ex member of the BSA organization who served as a Webelo and had a great time, we spent Monday nights for one hour at a scout patents garage or house, we did some camping, science experiments, shooting, conservation, showmanship, craftsmanship, and I earned my badges, my shoulder cord and Arrow of Light badge.

[Edited 2013-01-30 12:58:58]


"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 67, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3371 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 66):
(...and morally straight)
Quote:

On my honor:
I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law
To help other people at all times
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

At no point does it mention "SEXUALLY" straight. And since there is nothing inherently immoral about sex, I don't see how the Oath applies. And if you want to argue that homosexuality is immoral because sex out of wedlock is immoral, then you'd better prepare to kick an awful lot of teenage boys out of the program.

The Law:

Quote:
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

At no point does it say: "religious." "Reverence" and "Religion" are two very different things.

21 years after earning my Eagle award, I still have both of those memorized and I live by them.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 68, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 64):
Yah know, here in Ontario, an openly lesbian woman (who has a wife) has just been promoted to Premier (read: Governor)

Until she gets voted out in the next election for claiming in her victory speech that she will "continue the legacy" of a man who royally bent Ontario over and really gave it to us.

Nothing in politics is a given, you should know that. I would predict Ms Wynne will proclaim a 'new era' in provincial politics, tie everything financially bad to McGuinty, which wouldn't be far wrong, and then try to move on. The next election might still be a couple of years away, which is an eon in politics.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5536 posts, RR: 28
Reply 69, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):
What if I disagreed with someone for being Asian? Would I not be a racist?

You likely would.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):
Is racism not rooted in hate?

Not necessarily. It could be rooted in cultural factors or (again) simple ignorance.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 65):
It's not really any different in the case of homosexuals.

Agree there - whether rooted in ignorance, stupidity or plain, old hatefulness, it is ugly.

But, I cannot tell anyone that I know what is in their heart, that I know why they believe as they do. Anyone who contends that they can do so, is deluding themselves.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 70, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 60):
Not everyone who disagrees with who someone is, is doomed to hate that someone. They may be terribly wrong for their basis of disagreement, ill-informed, ignorant of reality - but that does not constitute "hate."

What do you disagree with, may I ask?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 54):
So what you are saying is that you are likely to be a pedophile? Wow, that's horrible, you really must get help. I mean with what you are saying, the truth of the stats also shows that something like 95% of pedophiles are MALE! It means that since you feel these "facts" imply who will molest boys then you must be at really high risk of doing something.

You make my point exactly. There are certain places where I am not welcome as a straight male. One example is sitting next to a child travelling on an airplane alone. Another would be leading Girl Scouts around. I can live with that. I have yet to hear any valid reason why gay men *need* access to boys in BSA.

Quoting mariner (Reply 57):
In the wider world, girls are (generally) very reluctant to admit they have been molested (shame, guilt, etc, and fear of authority) and often those who do so are persuaded by their mothers not to make a fuss or that it is a woman's lot in life.

I am not sure why you feel boys are more likely to talk about it. I for one did not tell a soul for 37 years. Hundreds of altar boys also did not for many years. What boy really wants the world to know some man stuck his penis up his butt?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25332 posts, RR: 85
Reply 72, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3271 times:
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Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
I am not sure why you feel boys are more likely to talk about it.

Because that's my experience - both at a Catholic school and afterwards.

The talk of it was common currency at my school, we knew exactly who the priests were and advised others how to deal with them. There were very few times - if any - when there was penetration. It happens, sure, but penetration is really quite difficult to achieve, except with some force and the circumstances have to be fairly unique.

Since then, I've had to deal with it in life, young men who were abused as boys who have asked me for advise. There is frequently a deep-seated resentment (and confusion) - they want closure, they want the priest (or whichever adult) to pay for what he did.

There are also many boys who will never come forward, out of shame or guilt. There are also some who don't come forward because they don't think any harm was done.

It happened to me (no penetration) as a boy - it really didn't bother me. He was kind to me and I was sexually precocious anyway.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
gay men *need* access to boys

Pedophiles don't *need* access to boys in the BSA.

Gays, however, should not be excluded from being legitimate leaders; you can't convince me that because they are statistically (supposedly) more likely to molest someone that they are to be excluded.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 74, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3252 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):

You make my point exactly. There are certain places where I am not welcome as a straight male. One example is sitting next to a child travelling on an airplane alone. Another would be leading Girl Scouts around. I can live with that. I have yet to hear any valid reason why gay men *need* access to boys in BSA.

Um, you do realize that the highest profile instance regarding this issue was a mother pack leader getting kicked out for being a lesbian, right?

You act as if some guy with bad intentions is likely to be 'out' in this scenario. That seems pretty silly to me.

[Edited 2013-01-30 20:22:24]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5536 posts, RR: 28
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 70):

What do you disagree with, may I ask?

If you refer to disagreeing in the context of that quote, nothing.

I do disagree with the notion that every person who believes gays should not be Scoutmasters can be conclusively presumed to have done so as a matter of "hate."



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
You make my point exactly. There are certain places where I am not welcome as a straight male. One example is sitting next to a child travelling on an airplane alone. Another would be leading Girl Scouts around. I can live with that. I have yet to hear any valid reason why gay men *need* access to boys in BSA.

Funny, you actually miss the point entirely. Based on your reasoning, no human should interact with another because there is something near a 100% chance that something bad will happen. With just men there is not a 95% chance that something will happen, it is vastly below that, and gay men are just part of that male populations statistics. Something is more like to happen to a boy interacting with a heterosexual male than with a gay male because there are more heterosexual males. But statistically there is no difference.

Quote:
Conclusion
The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

No homosexual has any greater *need* to access boys in BSA than a heterosexual does, the reason in because the BSA and the boys *need* good strong male leaders and ones sexuality does not define that.

And interestingly enough, I have been seated next to a young boy on a flight, and I ended up being a help to this boy who was upset and crying as the flight began. Additionally I have also lead Girl Scouts including during camping. An I claiming that my one example means that all situations would e fine? no. Just as I would not say the opposite either.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

Our Scoutmaster had two girls. But he was our Scoutmaster even though he had no son in the troop.

He was amazing. He was one of my life heroes and served as one of my greatest role models ever. I owe a good chunk of the man I am today to Brian Wicke, scoutmaster of Troop 1022.

Did this heterosexual father of two girls *NEED* access to boys in BSA? Of course not. But we sure as hell needed him.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 74):
You act as if some guy with bad intentions is likely to be 'out' in this scenario. That seems pretty silly to me.

Good point, if I read you right... Seriously though, I do wonder what these policies really believe they are achieving. Would a "gay" pedophile not simply pose as a hetero if they really needed "access to boys" through the BSA? It's not as if homosexuals come with useful labels after all.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 78):
Would a "gay" pedophile not simply pose as a hetero if they really needed "access to boys" through the BSA?



It's possible. Watch this video that warns young boys about the 'homosexual'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijbovskICjk

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 78):
It's not as if homosexuals come with useful labels after all.


No but they're usually the best dressed.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1390 posts, RR: 4
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 73):
Gays, however, should not be excluded from being legitimate leaders; you can't convince me that because they are statistically (supposedly) more likely to molest someone that they are to be excluded.

FWIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin.

Some on the religious right have tried to prove the exact opposite, notably a dubious character by the name of Paul Cameron, but his work has been totally debunked due to severe methodological flaws.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 72):
Because that's my experience - both at a Catholic school and afterwards.

How much of your experience is with girls who have been through similar situations? Please note, my question is not hostile but simply wishing to clarify how far that experience extends without in any way diminishing it and because you have only mentioned the experience of boyhood sexual activity.

I can appreciate a point that age is immaterial if consent is involved, but most legal systems in the west assume consent is not possible before a certain age (which varies from country to country). As a boy I was assaulted by an older person. I may be gay today but I was not ready to make a "decision" at the time, whatever the law may have said. Funnily enough, while I enjoyed seeing and feeling other boy's dicks the word gay did not even occur to me. Maybe I was a slow learner but I never looked for guidance from an older man. Today I am not attracted to boys, including young "men". I like my men to have a bit of hair, and not just on their chests.

Now that opens up a few thoughts. Did I become gay because I was abused as a child or would I have been so anyway? If yes, do girls become heterosexual if they are raped by men? Do I prefer a bit of pubic hair because of that experience? If I had not been abused would I have continued my liking for boys of my (then) age? Is my abhorrence of older persons raping boys due to having been raped myself? Did I lead him on? Was I a tease? To this day I can not urinate in a public lavatory if someone else is present. As a result people probably presume that I am a pervert. Yes, how I react today may be my problem, but was the original abuse my fault?

Oh, it wasn't a member of the Boy Scouts of America or its equivalent in Australia. There is no direct link between being gay and being prone to attacking boys anymore than there is a link between being straight and attacking girls. While there are possible problems with reporting, all the available statistics show that the majority of abuse against minors occurs:
a) between men and girls; and
b) between members of the same family or persons known to the family.

Solution? Ban sex between heterosexuals and abolish the family?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25332 posts, RR: 85
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3042 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 81):
How much of your experience is with girls who have been through similar situations? Please note, my question is not hostile but simply wishing to clarify how far that experience extends without in any way diminishing it and because you have only mentioned the experience of boyhood sexual activity.

Well, there's post #57 in which I talk of my family's and my experience with girls - my nieces.

My nieces (and others I have talked to) felt violated but not (physically) abused because sex with men, and probably older men, was something they knew that they would eventually have to deal with. It was the emotional abuse that was the greater problem for them.

Boys, on the other hand, don't generally regard sex with an older man as something they will ever have to deal with.

As a writer I am also a bit of a psychologist and it's an area in which I have a fairly strong interest, because most of what I hear is at variance with some of the more dramatic headline.

I am not in any way denigrating or trying to diminish the very real problem that it can be for some, even many.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 81):
Did I become gay because I was abused as a child or would I have been so anyway?

I can only speak of my personal experience. I knew I was attracted to men from among my earliest memories and I was "fooling around" before I was sexually capable and long before an older man ever tried it with me.

In that case, it is also possible that I (the boy) was the seducer (of the man), not the seduced.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 80):
WIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin.

Pedophiles are not straight or gay. They do not have an adult sexual orientation. They are pedophiles.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 79):
No but they're usually the best dressed.  

Not when I'm in the room, they're not.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 80):

FWIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin.

Given the sheer number of heteros vs homos, I'd say that's a very reasonable finding indeed.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
They do not have an adult sexual orientation. They are pedophiles.

I'm not sure about that. First, do pedophiles prefer one gender of children over another? As well, I've heard of more than a few (including the guy my former wife was with before we met) who were very convincingly into the women they were with while they were out destroying children. Perhaps it can be a situation like bi or pan sexuals, where there really are multiple interests there...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 85, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 73):
Gays, however, should not be excluded from being legitimate leaders; you can't convince me that because they are statistically (supposedly) more likely to molest someone that they are to be excluded.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 80):
FWIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin.

Yes, the common theme among excusers. Of course there will be more hetero abusers, they make up 97% of the population. What is being completely ignored is the ratio to population. Even more ignored is the history inside BSA.

But there are no girls in BSA, so the hetero argument is moot. A smokescreen. Leaving out the statistically significant fixated category, who is more likely to molest boys in the BSA, a hetero or a homo? We know exactly who. now the question is, why would we raise the odds on that? Why is the plight of sexual abuse on boys continually overlooked by gay rights crowd? A prime example is early in this thread in which not one poster considers the victims.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
Pedophiles are not straight or gay. They do not have an adult sexual orientation. They are pedophiles.

Nonsense and you as a doctor know better. That statement is really degenerating to the conversation. There are several categories. Studies of men in prison for sex crimes against underage children show that 2-3x the ratio of population at large associate themselves as gay. That abusers can be hetero and homo is well documented. Claiming otherwise ruins your credibility in the matter. It makes you just an excuser willing to risk young boys for your own agenda.

Once again, as a straight male, there are places I am simply not welcome or wanted because of historical propensities of my species. We live with that every day. What makes a homosexual so special that we ignore their propensities?


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20685 posts, RR: 62
Reply 86, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2946 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
What makes a homosexual so special that we ignore their propensities?

Earlier in this thread there've been examples given of the current BSA policy whereby no scout is ever alone with a scoutmaster, whether gay or straight, unless the scoutmaster is the scout's father. Banning gay men from being scoutmasters doesn't necessarily build in any further safety net in a properly supervised troop.

Unfortunately, there will always be a risk of molestation when adults are around children. Molesters may present themselves as straight, so you simply over-protect to keep the atmosphere as safe for children as possible. Unless a way can be devised to screen every scoutmaster for his probability of molestation, there'll never be a totally 100% molestation-free environment in the BSA. That's also true no matter where else adults and children come in contact with each other.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
Once again, as a straight male, there are places I am simply not welcome or wanted because of historical propensities of my species.

In situations without proper supervision, that would make perfect sense.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 87, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 80):
FWIW The exact opposite is true- most pedophiles are hetero, by a very large margin.

Some on the religious right have tried to prove the exact opposite, notably a dubious character by the name of Paul Cameron, but his work has been totally debunked due to severe methodological flaws.

Statistically there is no difference between heterosexual's and homosexual's regarding sexual impropriety with children. The incidence of it occurring with homosexual's is smaller simply because they have a smaller population but the proportion per population is similar.

The key thing that many cannot wrap their heads around is that pedophilia is a separate class of sexual attraction, it is neither "homosexual" nor "heterosexual".

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 84):
I'm not sure about that. First, do pedophiles prefer one gender of children over another? As well, I've heard of more than a few (including the guy my former wife was with before we met) who were very convincingly into the women they were with while they were out destroying children. Perhaps it can be a situation like bi or pan sexuals, where there really are multiple interests there...

It's really weird:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphilia_and_gynephilia

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
Nonsense and you as a doctor know better. That statement is really degenerating to the conversation. There are several categories. Studies of men in prison for sex crimes against underage children show that 2-3x the ratio of population at large associate themselves as gay. That abusers can be hetero and homo is well documented. Claiming otherwise ruins your credibility in the matter. It makes you just an excuser willing to risk young boys for your own agenda.

You are not citing any source, what you are saying is baseless and has no foundation in reality. What you are saying is simply not true, just fears and myths. You are ruining your credibility.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 88, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2904 times:

Kinda off topic, and I am not defending pedophile actions, but isn't it normal human nature to be attracted to people of age? I mean it's in your early teens (or sooner) that your hormones kick in and you are able to procreate, and through most/a lot of history people would get married at 15 or so. Isn't that just biology?

Then again, I know there is a difference between being attracted to adolescents and flat out children



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1390 posts, RR: 4
Reply 89, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 83):
Pedophiles are not straight or gay. They do not have an adult sexual orientation. They are pedophiles.

More accurately they have two sexualities (usually)- one which governs their relationships with children and one which governs their relationships with adults. It's not correct to say that pedophiles cannot have an adult sexual orientation- many hold down stable adult relationships, or at least have natural adult desires in addition to their desires for minors.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
Yes, the common theme among excusers. Of course there will be more hetero abusers, they make up 97% of the population. What is being completely ignored is the ratio to population. Even more ignored is the history inside BSA.

Leaving out the statistically significant fixated category, who is more likely to molest boys in the BSA, a hetero or a homo? We know exactly who.

You're failing to distinguish between the pedophiles adult desires and their desires for children. The two not need be the same. A heterosexual male may choose to molest young boys; that doesn't make them sexually attracted to adult men. You're attempting to show that a random homosexual male is more likely to be a pedophile than a random heterosexual male. That's at best conjecture.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
Once again, as a straight male, there are places I am simply not welcome or wanted because of historical propensities of my species. We live with that every day. What makes a homosexual so special that we ignore their propensities?

Black people represent a disproportionate number of people in the prison system compared to the population makeup. Why would we allow black people to participate in the scouts and indulge their "propensities" for crime? Or is that an absurd argument?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 90, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
Statistically there is no difference between heterosexual's and homosexual's regarding sexual impropriety with children. The incidence of it occurring with homosexual's is smaller simply because they have a smaller population but the proportion per population is similar.

The key thing that many cannot wrap their heads around is that pedophilia is a separate class of sexual attraction, it is neither "homosexual" nor "heterosexual".
Quoting tugger (Reply 87):
You are not citing any source, what you are saying is baseless and has no foundation in reality. What you are saying is simply not true, just fears and myths. You are ruining your credibility.

More nonsense. Heterosexual and homosexual molesters have long been considered clinical subcategories.

Now for statistics. At first glance, they appear to be all over the map. The anti gay crowd has its way of seeing things and the gay crowd has theirs. They both lie but there is a general trend.

[M]ost men who molest little boys are not gay. Only 21 percent of the child molesters we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual. Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were heterosexual or bisexual, and most of these men were married and had children of their own. Abel "The Child Abuser"

More than 70%of the men who molest boys rate themselves as heterosexual in their adult sexual preferences. Only 8% report they are exclusively homosexual. Abel and Harlow 2001

Notice the use of the word "only". Significant about that is that the homosexual population is "only" 3-5%. Whats more significant though is that they do not consider ages 13 and up, just when other studies show that homosexuals are much more likely to molest as they prefer pubescent and adolescent victims. Those molesting these age groups also tend to have far more victims, ~3x.

Those two studies are commonly used by gay rights crowd to disprove the wild claims of the anti-gay crowd, in fact I lifted both those quotes from gay rights sites. They completely overlook that a random gay man is still statistically much more likely to molest boys than a random hetero man. Since we are talking here about an institution with nothing but boys, I don't understand why we would increase those risks exponentially.

I have plenty more studies, not much of it is any better than those numbers. A lot is worse.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 89):
You're failing to distinguish between the pedophiles adult desires and their desires for children.

That has all been sliced and diced every which way. The only way to change the results is to fiddle with the definition of child and claim a pedophile cannot be homosexual which fails in that clinical studies have long shown many molesters are not pedophiles. Key thing, these definitions. A pedophile and a child molester are two very different beasts, in fact, pedophilia requires a psychiatric diagnosis and generally only refers to ages 13 and under. So a 55 year old priest banging 14 year old altar boys is not a pedophile and neither he nor the boys would be counted in many of these studies most often quoted. Where's the justice for those boys in that? That the gay rights people would lose and forget an entire class of sexual victim to further their agenda really pisses me off. I hope you sleep well with that tonight.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 89):
Black people represent a disproportionate number of people in the prison system compared to the population makeup. Why would we allow black people to participate in the scouts and indulge their "propensities" for crime? Or is that an absurd argument?

Yes, it is an absurd argument because it does not suggest that the targets of their crimes are the children they want to lead. Nor would a reasonable argument claim that their criminal behavior equates with sex drive.

But that was a nice distraction. It deftly avoids the question. Once again, as a straight male, there are places I am simply not welcome or wanted because of the historical propensities of my species. We live with that every day. Why would we turn a blind eye to the very same propensities because they are homosexuals?


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 27
Reply 91, posted (1 year 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2854 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
Since we are talking here about an institution with nothing but boys, I don't understand why we would increase those risks exponentially.

Glaringly egregious to everyone except yourself is your asinine belief that a man with bad intentions with the boy scouts would simply show up saying "I'm gay! let me in". Unreal.

Clearly you have some sort of axe to grind, but you simply cannot see the forest from the trees. This is about people like the lesbian mom who got kicked out from leading her sons group. This is about the boys themselves, often dealing with sexual identification earlier these days, and their being unjustly discriminated form joining an organization.

There have been abuse problems in BSA for a long time, as you're well aware. Clearly a ban on 'gays', did jack shit. And i'll bet you the vast, vast, unbelievable majority of abusers aren't going to be going there and telling you how gay they are beforehand. That's just common sense. I suggest you seek acquaintance with it. Take a step back and see how little logic pertains to your fears.

[Edited 2013-02-02 00:45:29]


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1390 posts, RR: 4
Reply 92, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
just when other studies show that homosexuals are much more likely to molest as they prefer pubescent and adolescent victims. Those molesting these age groups also tend to have far more victims, ~3x.

Source and source please. Preferably one which controls for the fact that the younger a victim is the less likely they are to report the crime. Since you can't possibly do that I'd settle for a retraction.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
Where's the justice for those boys in that? That the gay rights people would lose and forget an entire class of sexual victim to further their agenda really pisses me off. I hope you sleep well with that tonight.

14 year olds are, from an anatomical point of view, young adults. A sex offender who molests 14 year old girls would be considered heterosexual, it's true. But there are shades of gray everywhere. Somebody in a consensual affair with a 14 year old? Here the 14 year old cannot give consent, so they are a child molester. Not the case in Spain though, where the age of consent is 13. Or in Germany where it's 14. You have to separate the legal definition of a child molester (which is dependent on where you are and in some cases your own age or sexual preference) with the medical diagnosis of pedophilia (which specifically refers to prepubescent children- a much clearer boundary).

Note I'm not making a value judgment here- just trying to explain why the statistics are how they are, and why that has nothing to do with "forgetting the victims". If somebody is 19 and a victim of sexual abuse do they not matter either? Of course they do; but we don't include them in statistics on pedophilia.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
Notice the use of the word "only". Significant about that is that the homosexual population is "only" 3-5%

Perhaps, but there are probably other reasons for that. I'd wager that abusers whose victims are in their own home (a more likely scenario with hetero abusers) the easier it is for the victim to be manipulated and coerced into keeping quiet, and the more scared the victim is towards telling somebody because of the perceived loyalty they have towards their abuser.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
Yes, it is an absurd argument because it does not suggest that the targets of their crimes are the children they want to lead. Nor would a reasonable argument claim that their criminal behavior equates with sex drive.

You miss the point totally. The point is that even if you're correct and the chances of a random homosexual committing such a crime is double (say, 0.02% as opposed to 0.01%- and to be very clear, you have failed utterly to show any such thing because you have provided no evidence) then why should the 99.98% suffer the indignity of not being allowed to serve their community when we allow it to the 99.99% of heterosexual men? If you argument were to abolish the scouts completely you would have a point (a wildly paranoid one, but at least a coherent one). But otherwise it's a ludicrous position without much more convincing evidence than you have.

You have to learn that you cannot eliminate risk entirely. You can't, for example, stop men from being allowed to be around their own children. You can't ban victims of sexual abuse from having their own children. Doing both would reduce child abuse, but at what cost? At some point you hurt more people than you help.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
But that was a nice distraction. It deftly avoids the question. Once again, as a straight male, there are places I am simply not welcome or wanted because of the historical propensities of my species.

Such as?

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 91):
Clearly you have some sort of axe to grind, but you simply cannot see the forest from the trees.

It reminds me of the way people used to rationalize their prejudice with rubbish like "The Bell Curve". Unfortunately statistics are a dangerous tool for those who can't interpret them correctly.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinehOmsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
Significant about that is that the homosexual population is "only" 3-5%.

I'm actually curious, having never looked this up. How does one get an accurate census of homosexuals in the population given the high propensity of people to deny such for many years (perhaps even their entire lives)?

In other words, how do we know the homosexual population is "only" 3-5%? Did someone do a survey, and just assume the responses were true? Was there some other methodology?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25332 posts, RR: 85
Reply 94, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2752 times:
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As usual, the debate seems to have becomes about the ;sex" in homosexual, as if all gays (young or adult) are horn dogs and only horn dogs.

So I looked up the purpose of the Boy Scouts. From the manual:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29558/29558-h/29558-h.htm

""Scout" used to mean the one on watch for the rest. We have widened the word a little. We have made it fit the town as well as the wilderness and suited it to peace time instead of war. We have made the scout an expert in Life-craft as well as Wood-craft, for he is trained in the things of the heart as well as head and hand. Scouting we have made to cover riding, swimming, tramping, trailing, photography, first aid, camping, handicraft, loyalty, obedience, courtesy, thrift, courage, and kindness.

Do these things appeal to you? Do you love the woods?

Do you wish to learn the trees as the forester knows them? And the stars not as an astronomer, but as a traveler?

Do you wish to have all-round, well-developed muscles, not those of a great athlete, but those of a sound body that will not fail you? Would you like to be an expert camper who can always make himself comfortable out of doors, and a swimmer that fears no waters? Do you desire the knowledge to help the wounded quickly, and to make yourself cool and self-reliant in an emergency?

Do you believe in loyalty, courage, and kindness? Would you like to form habits that will surely make your success in life?

Then, whether you be farm boy or shoe clerk, newsboy or millionaire's son, your place is in our ranks, for these are the thoughts in scouting; it will help you to do better work with your pigs, your shoes, your papers, or your dollars; it will give you new pleasures in life; it will teach you so much of the outdoor world that you wish to know; and this Handbook, the work of many men, each a leader in his field, is their best effort to show you the way. This is, indeed, the book that I so longed for, in those far-off days when I wandered, heart hungry in the woods."


But not, apparently, if you are gay or putatively so, the clear implication being that gays are not - and cannot be - productive, well-adjusted members of society.

Thus it perpetuates an extraordinarily old-fashioned idea of homosexuality - gays as "lesser" man. Which seems odd, given that there are so many questions about the sexuality of the founder of the movement.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-02 15:45:18]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

In my world, Men like women. Women like men. Boys like girls, girls like boys. In my world this is normal. I cannot speak for others. In my world, men also like younger women and girls. In my world women sometimes like younger men and boys. All within the laws of course. When I was young I sometimes had a case on older women. Now that I am older, I find that I am attracted to younger women, and sometimes my breath is taken away by a very young women. This is known as the Dirty Old Man Syndrome. All within the law of course.

Now as a parent, I would like to pretend that my son/grandsons are different than I in that regard. I would like to pretend that my daughter and my wife are different than I was, am. Who knows? Now as a parent, who would I have felt more comfortable with watching, mentoring my son, or grandsons? I would have been very uncomfortable with someone who is attracted to the same sex as my son, and daughter, and also with my grandchildren being in a role where the possibility of contact could influence the person to initiate a same sex relationship. I am speaking of a person of responsibility such as adults, boy scout leaders, priests. Why would I want the complications of same sex attraction from that person of responsibility affecting my family members? I would not. It is not the way I think. Now child molesters are sick individuals. Male or female. We must remember there are two sides to every story. I consider everything in my world as I know it personally in Male, Female relationships. Others certainly do not. That is their right.

I have a right to my opinion, as do others. I do not like the one sided argument on here on this subject, or so it seems. A person of responsibility has a duty to protect their charges. This is not always so as we see, over and over again. I have no problem with a gay scout, I do have a problem with a person in charge being in a position where they can affect my family as I know it. I was allowed to find my way, my children were, and I hope my grandchildren will also be as fortunate. The record of the Boy Scouts is sickening, why would we think anything will change now?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 96, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 95):
I have no problem with a gay scout, I do have a problem with a person in charge being in a position where they can affect my family as I know it.

As pointed out, a scout master, gay or straight, cannot be with a scout alone. It's not a gay problem, it is a pedophile problem. I'm all for disallowing registered sex offenders to serve, but honestly, 99% of gay men find young boys just as attractive as you find 8 year old girls



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19806 posts, RR: 59
Reply 97, posted (1 year 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
As pointed out, a scout master, gay or straight, cannot be with a scout alone. It's not a gay problem, it is a pedophile problem. I'm all for disallowing registered sex offenders to serve, but honestly, 99% of gay men find young boys just as attractive as you find 8 year old girls

Correction: 100.0% of gay men.

If someone is attracted to young boys, they are a pedophile. That is not an adult sexual orientation. Pedophiles are NOT attracted to other adults.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 98, posted (1 year 8 months 23 hours ago) and read 2609 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 97):
If someone is attracted to young boys, they are a pedophile. That is not an adult sexual orientation. Pedophiles are NOT attracted to other adults.

They can't be both? Kind of like bisexual people have two different orientations? I guess what I meant to say are 99% of the people identifying as gay (but are really pedophiles) if that makes sense



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 99, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 98):
They can't be both? Kind of like bisexual people have two different orientations?

Of course. But then you can't really call them homosexual. It would just be another form of bi or pan sexuality.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 100, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 99):
Of course. But then you can't really call them homosexual. It would just be another form of bi or pan sexuality.

Well I doubt anyone fitting that category would openly admit that, I'm sure they'd identify as gay even if they really aren't. Again, moot point in the long run



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 101, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 98):
They can't be both? Kind of like bisexual people have two different orientations? I guess what I meant to say are 99% of the people identifying as gay (but are really pedophiles) if that makes sense

There are a few things that people here are confusing and being confused by. One, there is no firm statistic on the exact percentage of the population that are homosexual, the general consensus is that it stands somewhere between 4% and 10%. The issue with it is that for a long time its has been something that anyone should hide or suppress or otherwise deny, this makes it difficult to get an accurate assessment based on free admissions. At one time it was almost as bad to be homosexual as it was to be a pedophile and society is quickly coming to understand that they are nothing alike.

Two, statements that pedophiles are often "homosexual" do not mean that homosexuals are pedophiles. It is the the difference between saying that 100 minus 99% equals 1, therefore 1 plus 99% must equal 100. It doesn't. The direction of the statement makes a huge difference and one does not mean or equal the other.

Three, we are not talking about normal, healthy, homosexuals with a sexual attraction similar aged partners. We are talking about pedophiles that have feelings toward and attraction to young children. The pedophile must always hide his attraction and keep it secret in order to exist in society. Often time the pedophile is an apparent heterosexual, with wife or attraction to adults of the opposite sex but their true orientation is as a pedophile with an attraction to children. That at one time (and currently still in the BSA) homosexuals also had to hide their orientation in order to live "normally" in society is where I think some of the confusion between the two occurred for some. But there is a difference, a big difference, between an adult homosexual with a healthy attraction to other adults of the same sex, versus a pedophile with an attraction to children of the same sex. If you cannot understand that then discussion may be pointless.

So while people fear, the truth is an open well adjusted and accepted homosexual poses no danger to boys, any more than any other leader would.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-02-04 08:47:39]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 102, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 95):
I would have been very uncomfortable with someone who is attracted to the same sex as my son, and daughter, and also with my grandchildren being in a role where the possibility of contact could influence the person to initiate a same sex relationship. I am speaking of a person of responsibility such as adults, boy scout leaders, priests. Why would I want the complications of same sex attraction from that person of responsibility affecting my family members?

So under the conditions you set out above, would you feel that homosexuals could not serve as teachers either? I'm not trying to flame you here, it's a serious question.

The comparisons are notable:

- access to children of the same sex
- responsible for educating and guiding young minds
- frequent access to those children when parents/guardians aren't around

I'll also leave a little anecdote that I hope mhm001 takes into very serious consideration as far as teachers go: My high school was well known for having a lot of gay and lesbian teachers. When I graduated, there were at least 8 (I say "at least" because there were 8 that were open about it, who knows how many others weren't "out"). Not once in 5 years of high school did I ever here a single complaint about one of these teachers for being sexually suggestive or inappropriate in any fashion. But during my first year at university my Facebook page blew up with news of one of my former teachers being arrested for his inappropriate conduct with several young girls at my old middle school. That teacher was married and had two children with his wife. The man was clearly a pedophile, but he wasn't gay in the slightest.

So there are actually people in this thread suggesting that good ol' Mr. Atkins (the accused pedophile) should be allowed to take a bunch of boys camping, but none of the 8 gay teachers at my school, a couple of whom were extremely influential during my high school years, should be allowed to continue being a positive influence on young people.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I'm all for disallowing registered sex offenders

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that already a rule?



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 103, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2465 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 96):
I'm all for disallowing registered sex offenders

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that already a rule?

It probably is.

Honestly, I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread. Half of the replies seem to be towards me arguing something that is already solved or arguing a technicality I didn't even mean (though with the many people equating homosexuality to pedophilia, I guess I should have explained it a bit more)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 104, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 90):
That the gay rights people would lose and forget an entire class of sexual victim to further their agenda really pisses me off. I hope you sleep well with that tonight.

I never sleep well knowing that the gays are trying to strip me of my heterosexual rights with their evil gay agenda!     

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103):
Honestly, I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread.

Might as well. There's nowhere left for this thread to go since I just found this from the American Psychological Association:

"Despite a common myth, homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are."

Source: http://www.apa.org/pubs/info/brochures/sex-abuse.aspx# (quote is on page 3)

/thread



Flying refined.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 105, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2426 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 95):
I have a right to my opinion

You do, however:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 95):
I would have been very uncomfortable with someone who is attracted to the same sex as my son, and daughter, and also with my grandchildren being in a role where the possibility of contact could influence the person to initiate a same sex relationship.

You do not have the right to make stuff up and not be called out for it. If you're implying that gay people somehow "corrupt" or turn other people gay, you are wrong.

Likewise, if you are implying that you are only worried (or even more worried) about a gay person molesting your children or grandchildren, then you are ignorant, and your "opinion" is wrong.

The right to an opinion does not mean that the opinion is free from factual corrections and attacks.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 106, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 95):
I would have been very uncomfortable with someone who is attracted to the same sex as my son, and daughter, and also with my grandchildren being in a role where the possibility of contact could influence the person to initiate a same sex relationship. I am speaking of a person of responsibility such as adults, boy scout leaders, priests. Why would I want the complications of same sex attraction from that person of responsibility affecting my family members? I would not. It is not the way I think. Now child molesters are sick individuals. Male or female. We must remember there are two sides to every story. I consider everything in my world as I know it personally in Male, Female relationships. Others certainly do not. That is their right.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 102):
So under the conditions you set out above, would you feel that homosexuals could not serve as teachers either? I'm not trying to flame you here, it's a serious question.

I most certainly do not think that gay people cannot serve as anything they want. I was trying to make a point about people in positions of trust, such as Priests, Scout Leaders, and yes teachers and any adults who may take advantage of that position. It is very common it seems. One cannot deny that even gay people may not be the most honorable in those positions either. They are prone to weakness's also. I have seen it, read it, and have experience dealing with it. That was the points of my words. That all people are prone to misbehavior. I have no problem with a gay scout or anything else, but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture from anyone in a position of trust or power. In my opinion any person who exploits a child is despicable, straight or gay. That is the way I think, that is my right.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 107, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 105):
You do not have the right to make stuff up and not be called out for it. If you're implying that gay people somehow "corrupt" or turn other people gay, you are wrong.

Likewise, if you are implying that you are only worried (or even more worried) about a gay person molesting your children or grandchildren, then you are ignorant, and your "opinion" is wrong.

The right to an opinion does not mean that the opinion is free from factual corrections

See my reply above. I do not make things up. I was stating my opinion. I stick by it.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5654 posts, RR: 6
Reply 108, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2304 times:

Honestly, it sounds like you're in denial about your true feelings on the subject in an attempt to deflect any criticism. That's okay... it has happened before and it will continue to happen during times of social changes.

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
In my opinion any person who exploits a child is despicable, straight or gay.

Yet you are advocating stricter rules and exclusions for gay people:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture

Also;

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
I most certainly do not think that gay people cannot serve as anything they want.

Yet you later say:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture from anyone in a position of trust or power.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6600 posts, RR: 6
Reply 109, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
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Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
was trying to make a point about people in positions of trust, such as Priests, Scout Leaders, and yes teachers and any adults who may take advantage of that position. It is very common it seems. One cannot deny that even gay people may not be the most honorable in those positions either. They are prone to weakness's also. I have seen it, read it, and have experience dealing with it. That was the points of my words. That all people are prone to misbehavior. I have no problem with a gay scout or anything else, but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture from anyone in a position of trust or power. In my opinion any person who exploits a child is despicable, straight or gay.

So wait - are you suggesting that only Heterosexual men should teach boys, and that Heterosexual women should teach girls?

Boys should not deal with anybody (nurses, teachers, doctors, clergy, family members) unless they have not been certified Heterosexual?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 110, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):
I most certainly do not think that gay people cannot serve as anything they want. I was trying to make a point about people in positions of trust, such as Priests, Scout Leaders, and yes teachers and any adults who may take advantage of that position. It is very common it seems. One cannot deny that even gay people may not be the most honorable in those positions either. They are prone to weakness's also. I have seen it, read it, and have experience dealing with it. That was the points of my words. That all people are prone to misbehavior. I have no problem with a gay scout or anything else, but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture from anyone in a position of trust or power. In my opinion any person who exploits a child is despicable, straight or gay. That is the way I think, that is my right.

Read into it what you want. I have stated my opinion as I see it. Everyone is entitled to take my words as they see fit.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 111, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2256 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 106):

I most certainly do not think that gay people cannot serve as anything they want. I was trying to make a point about people in positions of trust, such as Priests, Scout Leaders, and yes teachers and any adults who may take advantage of that position. It is very common it seems. One cannot deny that even gay people may not be the most honorable in those positions either. They are prone to weakness's also. I have seen it, read it, and have experience dealing with it. That was the points of my words. That all people are prone to misbehavior. I have no problem with a gay scout or anything else, but I did not, do not need the further complications of same sex coming into the picture from anyone in a position of trust or power. In my opinion any person who exploits a child is despicable, straight or gay. That is the way I think, that is my right.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 110):
Read into it what you want. I have stated my opinion as I see it. Everyone is entitled to take my words as they see fit.

Yeah, we got that: "I have my opinion and I don't have to say anything or explain anything or have any good reason for my opinion. If you question it, it is because you did not read clearly and properly and not because what I said might have been poorly worded or misinterpreted. So there."

Pretty simple, thanks for contributing.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 112, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 111):
Yeah, we got that: "I have my opinion and I don't have to say anything or explain anything or have any good reason for my opinion. If you question it, it is because you did not read clearly and properly and not because what I said might have been poorly worded or misinterpreted. So there."

Pretty simple, thanks for contributing.

When one realizes that some do not see, nor understand what you are trying to express, it is time to call an end to the discussion from my point of view.. An endless round of questions, replies serves no purpose. I have stated my views, you have stated yours as well as others. There is a time to say Oh well. Oh well.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2228 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 112):
When one realizes that some do not see, nor understand what you are trying to express, it is time to call an end to the discussion from my point of view.. An endless round of questions, replies serves no purpose. I have stated my views, you have stated yours as well as others. There is a time to say Oh well. Oh well.

I do understand what you are saying here. I really do. I just wish I understood what you were meaning and trying to saying about the BSA and their leaders. And unfortunately I don't. I am not trying to drag you back into the discussion, I am trying to express that I wish I knew your thinking and what made you feel the way you do and how you support that. I do understand that often means challenging oneself on why one believes as they do and that is sometimes not easy.

Anyway, I hope you do not take offense to my somewhat snide earlier remarks, I really just like to know reasoning behind peoples opinions (and obviously I like challenging said reasoning often enough   ).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8946 posts, RR: 10
Reply 114, posted (1 year 7 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 113):
Anyway, I hope you do not take offense to my somewhat snide earlier remarks, I really just like to know reasoning behind peoples opinions (and obviously I like challenging said reasoning often enough ).

I do not take offense. I have been deleted many times, banned for getting into too deep a discussion, some take things too personal and too seriously. There were complaints against me to the moderators. I like a good discussion and a good argument. The argument is what gets me in trouble on here. I can give you reasons for my words, some based on experience, age, maybe some wisdom, cynicism, all of the above. We are formed by experience. I have had many at my age. I am happy that most have been positive, not all but most.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 115, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

So the BSA have delayed any decision on changing their policy until May:

Quote:
The decision will now be made at the organization's annual meeting in May. About 1,400 members of the group's national council will take part during that gathering, the board said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/06/us/boy...scouts-policy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I think their big question is whether they will grow or shrink going forward based on their decision. And the truth is they will probably continue to shrink (they are down by a third since 1999) if they keep the ban but they will shrink rapidly if they get rid of it.

However I also firmly believe that they will start to grow again after the initial firestorm if they end the ban and it will just stop being an issue for most people and members and the BSA will just continue on. But if they don't they will continue to slowly shrink and become primarily a religious organization and become less and less relevant overall in the nation. One certain thing that will also happen if they keep the ban is that their major corporate funding and board support (and likely even Presidential) will dry up (to be temporarily replaced by supporters and religious oriented people but that will slowly wither in the long run as the firestorm over the issue dies down).

Tugg

[Edited 2013-02-06 09:10:45]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 116, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

Texas governor Rick Perry has weighed in. Perry has taken a hard & firm stance with his position on gays
in the Boy Scouts.
Perry came out against lifting the ban.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/us...es-opening-boy-scouts-to-gays.html




This isn't the first time Perry has sided with anti-gay groups....



[Edited 2013-02-07 08:52:12]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5629 posts, RR: 8
Reply 117, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 116):
Perry came out against lefting the ban.

And of course Romney has previously come out in support of ending the ban:
(Can't get the link to post properly so lets try this: (remove the periods at the beginning and end)
.http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2012/08/barack-obama-boy-scouts-gays-mitt-romney-/1.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:42:10]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 118, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Whatever happens, I hope the government stays out of it. As much as I am against the ban, they are their own, private organization


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2988 posts, RR: 1
Reply 119, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 115):

So the BSA have delayed any decision on changing their policy until May:

That's it. Time to send a letter to Irving. This is absurd.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
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