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Israel Gives Birth Control Shots To Ethiopian Jews  
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2597 posts, RR: 7
Posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2283 times:

......without their informed consent.

Now why would they do something like that when they want to populate the whole country with Jews?

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/28/isra...ts_were_given_birth_control_shots/


Oh, right.

 

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5903 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2239 times:

back in the 90's they had refused blood donations from this group and the protesters were attacked I think.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
Now why would they do something like that when they want to populate the whole country with Jews?

Are you implying that the Israeli government is behaving like the very Nazis that prompted the formation of Israel?

No, I am not carelessly throwing the word "Nazi" around. The Nazis were very interested in sterilizing "undesirables." They, of course, did not have access to depo-estradiol. However, the underlying motivation is the same.

This action calls to mind a lot of the darkest moments in human history. The Holocaust, Tuskeegee experiments, etc.

While I certainly believe that forced sterilization actually SHOULD be permitted in certain cases where it is done after careful due process, this sort of program is nothing like that at all. It is simply the sterilization of "undesirables." The fact that the sterilization is reversible in no way diminishes the crime.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6454 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2097 times:
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Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
Now why would they do something like that when they want to populate the whole country with Jews?

Because in Israel there are certain Jews, and then, there are the other Jews.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

This is a low-profile form of ethnic cleansing. As AR385 has pointed out, there are Jews, and then there are Jews. Brings to mind, in a sad way, Joe Pesci's visit to the South African consulate in"Lethal Weapon II" -- "But, sir, you're bleck".

Despicable, really.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2029 times:

I also have to add that this kind of behavior will only feed the fire of anti-semitism. Way to go, Israel.

Because whether I like it or not, I'm an Azhkenazi Jew and any anti-semite will assuredly see me as one, no matter what religion (or lack thereof) I profess.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

I also have to add that this kind of behavior will only feed the fire of anti-semitism. Way to go, Israel.

See no connection to Judaism there. It's just a crap government regime. There's nothing holy or privileged about that.

Even if they claim religious cover... shame on them... I see no reason to grant it.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
See no connection to Judaism there.

Others do see a connection. They see all Jews as Zionists and all things Israeli as Jewish. And behavior like this only emboldens those people.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6454 posts, RR: 32
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2001 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):
See no connection to Judaism there.

There has always been a debate about wether the Ethiopian Jews were "real " Jews. Maybe by a minority, but the debate has been there. It was really a big surprise to me when they evacuated them all into Israel from Ethiopia in the 90s (was it?).

Now the recently immigrated (past 20 years) Eastern European Jews and the Russian Jews need more room, have acquired positions of authority in many areas of government in Israel, and furthermore, they keep coming. And the Ethiopians keep reproducing.

You do have a point, but I do think some sort of Judaic caste system is at play here.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1976 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
There has always been a debate about wether the Ethiopian Jews were "real " Jews. Maybe by a minority, but the debate has been there. It was really a big surprise to me when they evacuated them all into Israel from Ethiopia in the 90s (was it?).

That's great and all, but... let's just use secular moral standards to figure out what's moral. Israel may not use secular standards. But I will.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
They see all Jews as Zionists and all things Israeli as Jewish.

Exactly what the generals in Tel Aviv want. Confused analogies. Divine right assisted by American nukes.

Yuck!


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6454 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1971 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
That's great and all, but... let's just use secular moral standards to figure out what's moral. Israel may not use secular standards. But I will.

Sure. You may use them if you wish. But there is nothing secular about what´s going on.


User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1860 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1940 times:
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Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Now the recently immigrated (past 20 years) Eastern European Jews and the Russian Jews need more room, have acquired positions of authority in many areas of government in Israel, and furthermore, they keep coming. And the Ethiopians keep reproducing.

And, according to the article, those ethiopians are poor so assumably they need state assistance, and there's a whole population of Ultra Orthodox Jews who expect to spend their entire lives doing nothing but studying religious texts and they expect to be paid by the government to do this. So, maybe with limited state assistance funding available and not wanting to impugn the dignity of the Ultra Orthodox by making them go out and actually get jobs and support themselves like everyone else, the Israeli government chooses to limit the number of children that the ethiopians are "allowed" to have so as not to put pressure on the Ultra Orthodox to start pulling their own weight.

And no, I dont have anything against the Ultra Orthodox, I just dont consider "studying the bible" to be a valued skill for which someone should be compensated by the government for doing.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5477 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

I have read many comments in Israeli newspapers calling anyone who doesn't support and agree with Israel and every Israeli issue, anti-Semitic...including other Jews. Everything Israel does must be, not just agreed with, but wholeheartedly supported. Don't agree that America should attack Iran? Anti-Semitic. Think that Israel should stop building on disputed land until a settlement is agreed to. Anti-Semitic.

It has become 'the sky is falling' cry of the past few decades and it was certainly the most common refrain in the last election campaign when Netanyahu as much told Obama that if they didn't bomb Iran, it would lead to the next Holocaust...(which really got on my nerves...the Holocaust is not something that should be cheapened by using it as a political ploy). He and Adelson were not the least bit subtle about supporting Romney.

As it turns out, more Jews voted for Obama than Netanyahu.

Jews, like every other people, cannot be defined by a simple category. To not agree with Israeli politics doesn't make one any less Jewish. Heck, in this last election, half of the Israeli voters went against Netanyahu and the right...does that make them anti-Semitic too?

Israel is a small country and doesn't have many friends in the area. They have the right to defend themselves, then they do stuff like this, and lose yet more popular support, and get more enemies.

Forced sterilization is an abomination. One can't help but think of nazi atrocities in comparison. It's even more sadly ironic that they were, in fact, sterilizing other Jews. What colour star should Ethiopian Jews wear?



What the...?
User currently offlinedamirc From Slovenia, joined Feb 2004, 726 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1902 times:

Meh, this is being slightly overblown out of proportions. It's not permanent sterilization, it's basically a contraceptive that last 3 months - something that is regularly used as birth control around the world.

Now, who ever dreamed up the decision to do this to uninformed women - well, his head does have to roll, but that's about it. I am slightly worried, that not one doctor performing these inoculations actually reported it sooner (Hippocratic oath anyone?).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Others do see a connection. They see all Jews as Zionists and all things Israeli as Jewish. And behavior like this only emboldens those people.

That is the giant problem, which bothers me also - Zionism and Judaism are not homonyms, although they are frequently being used as such. It's easier to dismiss criticsm if you equate Zionism and Judaism, and then claim anti-semitism. Unfortunately the criticism and the problems being criticised remain.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 3):
Because in Israel there are certain Jews, and then, there are the other Jews.

True, unfortunately. What does need to be taken into account however, is the fact that Israel is relatively young and it will take some time still before true equality will exist. Looking back however it is clear that the situation in this regard is improving. So, while it is somewhat of a problem at the moment, I don't think it will be a problem in the long run.

What worries me a lot about Israel is intolerance of a differing opinion to the majority views. It is not a secret the majority of Israelis are politically on the center-right towards right, and it's painful to see the criticism, nay expetives, thrown at anyone having a leftist opinion in Israel. There are leftist, liberal, organizations in Israel, but popular support has gone down in he past decade. Well, why it worries me is simple - political (and even religious) discourse used to be one of the cores of the Jewish culture and frankly I do feel it is what brings progress - debating things and learning from the discourse. Now it seems that a fraction of Israelis think having a differing opinion should almost be grounds for expulsion from Israel (read comments on JPost if you want to see what I mean).

D.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 12):
Forced sterilization is an abomination. One can't help but think of nazi atrocities in comparison. It's even more sadly ironic that they were, in fact, sterilizing other Jews. What colour star should Ethiopian Jews wear?

This isn't sterilisation, it's a long-term birth control program being foisted on uninformed (and under-resourced) women. Although it may achieve the same result.

And before we pursue the sterilisation argument too far, let's remember that in Canada in the 40s and I think into the 50s, the sainted CCF/NDP leader (and former priest) Tommy Douglas was officially in favour of sterilisation of "mentally deficient" people. The term could have been stretched to include almost anyone. Kind of like in the former Soviet Union, when someone made public statements against the government, they ran a real risk of being labelled as mentally ill and confined to a secure psychiatric facility, of which there were many.

But an abomination, certainly.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
And before we pursue the sterilisation argument too far, let's remember that in Canada in the 40s and I think into the 50s, the sainted CCF/NDP leader (and former priest) Tommy Douglas was officially in favour of sterilisation of "mentally deficient" people.

Psychiatry patients were sterilized in Switzerland until the 1980ies. And we even had a program running from 1926 to 1973 called "Kinder der Landstrasse" ("Children of the Country Road") that forcibly took away children from gypsies, and there was no way to contact for the child to contact the parents and vice versa. Many of the children were often placed in children's homes, but sometimes also in families, prisons and on farms, where they had to work. The reasoning behind was that the children should be like normal, law-abiding Swiss - settled, having a steady occupation, living in a house. But there was also the eugenic component, especially in the beginning.

It needed (and found) support among welfare personnel, teachers and priests. One can reasonably argue that Switzerland committed genocide, and this even after World War 2.

Sometimes it is easy to commit these things even in a civilized country. We don't have to look at Germany's past. All it takes are good intentions and the availability of the means.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6454 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1786 times:
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Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
And before we pursue the sterilisation argument too far, let's remember that in Canada in the 40s and I think into the 50s, the sainted CCF/NDP leader (and former priest) Tommy Douglas was officially in favour of sterilisation of "mentally deficient" people.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
Psychiatry patients were sterilized in Switzerland until the 1980ies. And we even had a program running from 1926 to 1973 called "Kinder der Landstrasse" ("Children of the Country Road") that forcibly took away children from gypsies, and there was no way to contact for the child to contact the parents and vice versa. Many of the children were often placed in children's homes
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
Sometimes it is easy to commit these things even in a civilized country.

We did the same thing in México during the mid 60s throughout the 70s. Native American women were permanently sterilized when they arrived at the local clinic to give birth, if the registry said they had had more than 3 children. A c-section would be performed and in the course of the procedure their fallopian tubes tied. You could argue it was not done because of ethnic cleansing but rather because these ethnicities were having 8-10 children per woman. But still, I would argue it was genocide, racism, and some, were hoping it would result in ethic cleansing. A horrible splotch in our recent history and an abomination. Whatever doctor accepted to perform these procedures is just not more than a butcher in my mind with no morals.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1710 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
This isn't sterilisation, it's a long-term birth control program being foisted on uninformed (and under-resourced) women. Although it may achieve the same result.

The fact that it is reversible is more of a logistical issue rather than a policy one. Depo-Provera can be given by injection quickly and easily every three months. The motivation was to keep them from having babies. If you keep someone on birth control without their knowledge or consent for their remaining reproductive lives, I argue that what you have done is no different than sterilization.

The only thing that stopped this from being functionally permament is that they got caught.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1691 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
Psychiatry patients were sterilized in Switzerland until the 1980ies. And we even had a program running from 1926 to 1973 called "Kinder der Landstrasse" ("Children of the Country Road") that forcibly took away children from gypsies, and there was no way to contact for the child to contact the parents and vice versa. Many of the children were often placed in children's homes, but sometimes also in families, prisons and on farms, where they had to work. The reasoning behind was that the children should be like normal, law-abiding Swiss - settled, having a steady occupation, living in a house. But there was also the eugenic component, especially in the beginning.

It needed (and found) support among welfare personnel, teachers and priests. One can reasonably argue that Switzerland committed genocide, and this even after World War 2.

Sometimes it is easy to commit these things even in a civilized country. We don't have to look at Germany's past. All it takes are good intentions and the availability of the means.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
We did the same thing in México during the mid 60s throughout the 70s. Native American women were permanently sterilized when they arrived at the local clinic to give birth, if the registry said they had had more than 3 children. A c-section would be performed and in the course of the procedure their fallopian tubes tied. You could argue it was not done because of ethnic cleansing but rather because these ethnicities were having 8-10 children per woman. But still, I would argue it was genocide, racism, and some, were hoping it would result in ethic cleansing. A horrible splotch in our recent history and an abomination. Whatever doctor accepted to perform these procedures is just not more than a butcher in my mind with no morals.

Gentlemen, thank you for these contributions, of which I was completely unaware. Indeed, we don't have to look at Germany's past.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The fact that it is reversible is more of a logistical issue rather than a policy one. Depo-Provera can be given by injection quickly and easily every three months. The motivation was to keep them from having babies. If you keep someone on birth control without their knowledge or consent for their remaining reproductive lives, I argue that what you have done is no different than sterilization.

The only thing that stopped this from being functionally permament is that they got caught.

Agree with you, Doc. This is a pernicious social policy on the part of the Israeli government, or several governments.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2472 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1555 times:

I was so disgusted before I even read the article or this thread. Just by the title and my knowledge. Even Arabs will overrun Jews in Israel in a number of years. To me this colorism and ethnic bias is so passe, blase, and past tense. Oh so these Ethiopians are blacker...wow. And the Arabs in Israel are browner and stranger....? I love Jewish people in America so much; I've known so many of them here in the US. I just loathe how nasty the Israeli Government is at times. I cannot even understand it.


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

modern Israel was mainly founded by Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern and Western Europe, who tried to model the country after what they knew and they still have a strong influence today. I also have heard about tensions between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in the past due to the different traditions. Throw in the visibly different Ethiopean Jews with their own traditions and you have a conflict preprogrammed.
Why should some Israeli Jews not be different from other humans who harbour prejudices and enmity to anyone who isn´t like them? I have heard about orthodox Jews accusing the Ethiopean Jews for not being "real Jews" because their traditions were different from what the orthodox knew from their "Stetl" back in Eastern Poland and what they considered to be the only true Jewish traditions. In that aspect they are not much different from the Saudi Wahabis.

Jan


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1536 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
I also have heard about tensions between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews in the past due to the different traditions.

Different traditions? There is worse than that... Ashkenazi Jews were the main targets of the Nazi persecutions, while the Sephardic Jews were more or less unscathed. The Holocaust didn't affect the Jewish world equally.

And then, the state of Israel was built, organized and run by Ashkenazis, while Sephardic Jews came to settle later. Ashkenazi Jews spoke Yiddish, German, French, English, while the Sephardic ones were left out of this language mix. Ashkenazis were therefore the natural choice to staff government offices.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14127 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

I understand that the Jewish population during the Ottoman rule (before the Zionist movement) in this region was mainly Sephardic.

Jan


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2451 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):

Yes. But they were an extremely small number, as can be seen on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...Demographics_in_the_Ottoman_period :

1800: 7000 Jews (meaning Sephardic and Ashkenazi) in Palestine
1890: 43'000 Jews
1931: 175'000 Jews
1947: 630'000 Jews.

I'm sure that most of the influx after the Ottoman time was Ashkenazi.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5903 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

With what they're doing even to their own its more like AshkeNazi.

25 StuckInCA : I see it. So, while you may not, Doc's assertion is correct in that some people will.
26 Post contains links EL-AL : Please read the full story: http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2...raelis-force-contraception-on.html
27 Post contains links Newark727 : From the article you quoted: Yeah that's not spin at all. Also, someone did a study (link: http://www.isha.org.il/upload/file/Depo_Provera%2520ENGLIS
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