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A Car That Gets 117 MPG (2 L/100km)  
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

Peugeot Citroen is developing a Gasoline-Compressed Air hybrid that could be available in Europe by 2016. More info here:

http://news.yahoo.com/want-car-gets-...-mpg-180616903--abc-news-tech.html

I've read about compressed air vehicle propulsion in the past, but not for a real car, mostly for small golf cart-like vehicles without a back up gasoline engine. Do you think this technology will be successful considering it's cheaper and more environmentally friendly than Gasoline-Electric hybrids.

[Edited 2013-01-29 15:08:29]

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

The mileage figure is to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's given according to a regulatory driving cycle and, in the end, has little to do with real life consumption figures.
It is also a hybrid, meaning that, one way or another, the energy to move the vehicle has to come from the fuel tank, one way or another. Unless they give it a compressed air tank and the ability to fill it up at home, with a small electric compressor, a bit like you recharge the new generation Prius.

The interesting bit is that this will likely imply that the gasoline or diesel engine will also have the capacity to be turned over by compressed air as well, eliminating the need for a separate electric drive system. All it needs is a belt (or gear) driven air compressor (clutched, likely), an air tank and a few air lines.
This should be interesting. I hope they can do something about the horrible noise air engines generally make...

Still, I doubt it will ever actually give 2mpg, especially out of town.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

They must have something. Hopefully it is more than the 'green" vaporware VW routinely announces. And to Peugeot's credit, they say they 'hope"' to produce a car up to 118 mpg on the euro cycle. Discount about 40% for imperial gallons and test differences and you get ~70 mpg US.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
The interesting bit is that this will likely imply that the gasoline or diesel engine will also have the capacity to be turned over by compressed air as well, eliminating the need for a separate electric drive system.

This does not. That would be called an air engine. They use a hydraulic drive line. There are already some fleet trucks using this now.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6513 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2027 times:

Looks like too little, too late to me. The "all-air" range is not even a Km. They should focus on improving their diesel-electric propulsion system and add a gasoline-electric one.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

The only thing that can get that sort of MPG reliably is a motorcycle. I'll believe 117mpg when I see it happen under real world circumstance.

User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20343 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

117MPG. I can only wish. I think my car secretly snacks on gas while it's parked.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1155 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
And to Peugeot's credit, they say they 'hope"' to produce a car up to 118 mpg on the euro cycle. Discount about 40% for imperial gallons and test differences and you get ~70 mpg US.

The imperial gallon is actually only 20% larger than the US liquid gallon, so the conversion would mean around 98mg(us)g



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

I just read something yesterday that sounds just as "far fetched" but is apparently MUCH, MUCH closer to being implemented for fleet trucks; and Fed-Ex, UPS, and a few more already have a bunch of delivery trucks that have it installed, and are testing it out;

It's some kind of an electric motor "drive unit"; any delivery truck can have a "conversion" unit installed; makes no difference what make, what model, it can be "converted". It's a start-up company in Anderson, Indiana, (I don't recall the name right now) they had a picture in the article of the "unit"; it runs off of some new "high tech" Li-ion battery I think. Apparently the companies using the things are very impressed with them so far.

This "thing" that Peugeot is talking about........sounds a lot like a light-weight golf buggy to me. (in other words, I remain to be convinced)

BTW........I just thought about something else; this business about "using air".............does anyone remember when Mack Truck (and other truck manufacturers) used air starters on big trucks back in the 50s and 60s? Not delivery trucks, I mean really BIG over-the-road tractor trailer trucks ? I think the whole idea was to save a bit of weight from big heavy electric starters, and the four big heavy batteries needed to power them. They worked really well, all except for when the air tank got too low on air to operate the starter, then you either had to call a service truck, or hook up an "extension hose" from one of your drive tires, to the air tank, and "air it up" to get the engine started. I think they probably required more maintenance that regular electric starters also; they finally "went away" by the 70s or 80s.

I worked for this big Tank Line in Ohio, called F.J. Egner & Son back in the late 50s; they were a "intra-state" tank carrier, and every truck they had was a Mack, and they ALL had air starters. You can ALWAYS tell when a truck has an air starter; when you pull the knob that operates the starter, it releases a huge big blast of 130 lb. psi air; (which can be heard from half a mile away). No way to describe that sound, but suffice to say, it "startles" the hell out of most people, (even around truck stops, where you used to hear it all the time); now........many truck drivers who drove trucks with air starters would routinely pull the starter knob while waiting for a traffic signal, especially if there were any "babes" in th cross walk; on one such occasion, I was sitting at a light, and noticed this fabulous "babe" about to walk across
the street; just as she was right in front of me, I pulled the knob, the starter makes it's usual sound, the terrified "babe" goes straight up.............and her damned bloomers went straight "down".....clear to her ankles ! So now here's this frightened "babe", with her bloomers down around her ankles, in the middle of the street ! A bunch of other people jumped too, and they were all looking at the truck, (thinking, "WTF"), while the babe was trying to get her panties back up so she could get across the street.

Thinking back on this "foul deed", I almost feel ashamed of myself now that I have become a "nice, gentle, compassionate senior citizen type, but to a 20 something smart-ass kid driving a big truck. it seemed hilarious at the time. (Let's hope those Peugeots don't make any air noises like those air starters did, or they will become very unpopular among "babes" !)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1141 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 7):
This "thing" that Peugeot is talking about........sounds a lot like a light-weight golf buggy to me. (in other words, I remain to be convinced)

Based on your driving experience, I suppose you probably would call it a golf buggy!! The car families that they're talking about installing the system in are the Citroen C3 and Peugeot 208, so roughly equivalent in size to a Ford Fiesta. Presumably this system has been considered because hybrid electric systems and their batteries still present a limited opportunity in vehicles of this size due to cost and weight. Anyone who takes their small car outside the confines of the city regularly (as people do with this class of car) isn't going to be particularly well-served by a heavy and initially pricey petrol-electric hybrid (Toyota Yaris HSD is the only one in this class at the moment, I think) or by a range-limited all-electric vehicle (AFAIK there's nothing in this class that can tackle over 150 miles).

I'm very enthusiastic about all-electric cars (their time will come), but I welcome any innovation that leads to greater efficiency and lower emissions.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
The only thing that can get that sort of MPG reliably is a motorcycle.

Now, yes. In the future, why not small cars too? A few years ago we'd have laughed at the idea of doing 35mpg in a mid-size sedan, yet now we can do 60...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
The "all-air" range is not even a Km. They should focus on improving their diesel-electric propulsion system and add a gasoline-electric one.

Diesel hybrid is heavy enough in a mid-size, so in a B2 segment car? The time will come, but not yet...



Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6513 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

I despise diesel so I was thinking about the gas-electric for myself (who currently drives a C3). My mother drives a Citroën Evasion diesel and wants an hybrid to replace it, but there is nothing on the market that makes sense. The 3008 hybrid4 only gives more power and a more bumpy ride, not better economy, for a very high price for what it is. There is the Prius+, but we're looking at something made in France.

Personally I'm looking forward to plug-in hybrid/electric with range extender for a decent price, with maybe several sizes of battery packs. I do lots of small trips and a few long ones so a battery for 30 miles could be enough and not too costly, and that would mean that I would rarely burn any gas. If an air reservoir can be the storage medium, fine, but I want to be able to really drive without the gas engine running.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
This does not. That would be called an air engine. They use a hydraulic drive line. There are already some fleet trucks using this now.

Meh...   
And here I was, expecting a whole new combustion engine concept which would integrate the hybridization deep in its core and would eliminate the complexity of having several propulsion systems in one vehicle...

So, basically, a garbage truck hydraulic drive system in a small city car.

I have no clue how they expect to achieve such a mileage with that system, unless the car comes with a 200 gal air tank on a trailer...

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 8):
I'm very enthusiastic about all-electric cars (their time will come),

We still have to find an efficient way to store electric energy, or even to produce it onboard using renewable stuff.
The use of electric engine in cars will likely take precedence, but how these motors will be fed is still up for debate.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 6):
The imperial gallon is actually only 20% larger than the US liquid gallon, so the conversion would mean around 98mg(us)g

The Euro test quoted is generally ~20% more optimistic than the EPA, so ~80 US.


User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1677 times:

For anybody spreaking German, here is an awesome description of the system:

http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Transfer-Leistung-1790037.html

It consists of a pump which pressurizes hydraulic fluid while braking, this is then used to compress nitrogen in a gas cylinder; gas and hydraulic fluid are separated by a membrane. The energy stored in the compressed nitrogen is converted back to mechanical power by a dedicated hydraulic motor.

The principle was adapted from a system used on trucks (primarily for garbage collection). It was developed by Bosch Rexroth. Unfortunately, they seem to have changed their website in the last few days, but the old one can still be accessed through the google cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ndex.jsp+&cd=4&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 8):
ow, yes. In the future, why not small cars too? A few years ago we'd have laughed at the idea of doing 35mpg in a mid-size sedan, yet now we can do 60...

True but I think it will take a lot to go from 55-65 mpg in a small car to almost double that. I'm sure this is a great idea and will improve fuel consumption, but to get to 117 mpg, I am doubtful.


User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
They must have something. Hopefully it is more than the 'green" vaporware VW routinely announces. And to Peugeot's credit, they say they 'hope"' to produce a car up to 118 mpg on the euro cycle. Discount about 40% for imperial gallons and test differences and you get ~70 mpg US.

I presume it's 117 US Gallon since the article is on a US website. The real world figures will definitely vary just like with other cars.

Quoting A342 (Reply 12):

Thanks for the links.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3557 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 14):
I presume it's 117 US Gallon since the article is on a US website.

ABC is just quoting other sources. "The company, according to European news reports, says......"


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6513 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

It's a French company, so what they're talking about is 2L/100Km on the European test. I have no idea how it translates in US MPG, but I know that I've never been able to make the same number as in the test, especially in city driving. That's where hybrids matter, though, so I'm happy to be surprised, that is in 5 years if the car is made (if the company still exists).


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
ABC is just quoting other sources. "The company, according to European news reports, says......"

Maybe, but I think news websites should always convert measurements to the local system.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
(if the company still exists).

I hope they make it, it'll be a sad day to see yet another European automaker go the way of the dodo, or the way of the Saab and Rover, I should say!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6513 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

Now there are talks about the government buying into PSA (would go right with the alliance made with GM !).


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1054 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Now there are talks about the government buying into PSA (would go right with the alliance made with GM !).

Does this mean Peugeot & Citroen might cross the pond? Just like Fiat did after the Chrysler-Fiat merger.


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