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NHL To Expand To 32 Teams.............?  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7578 posts, RR: 18
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Um......well, ok, i get it....but why?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...onto-candidates-for-expansion.html

I think the NHL has too many teams....but being a hardened PHX Coyotes fan I don't want to see them relocate...so in a sense, I'm for and against expansion- for, because it keeps teams like PHX and Dallas, and against because there's too many teams to begin with.

Thoughts?


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
but why?

Munny. It's a business, they want to expand it.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

First of all, of course Paul Kelly is going to say that. More teams, more players, more union dues for his former employer to eat up.

Second, he isn't doing this for free, obviously he's going to say whatever he can to get the arena built.

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
Munny. It's a business, they want to expand it.

Except that's not how the NHL works. Many franchises are losing money because of expansion, because Bettman has this manifest destiny mandate to penetrate markets that couldn't care less about hockey.

Phoenix is a perfect example. Their fans are the definition of "fair weather fans". They only fill the arena when they are in the playoffs. Teams like this shouldn't exist.

What needs to happen is what recently happened to Atlanta. The free market economy did its magic and moved a failing Atlanta team to a hockey-hungry Winnipeg market, which has now sold out all games from now until eternity.

To be truly profitable (big revenue doesn't equal big profit), the NHL needs to either contract, or move teams into markets that can support them.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2528 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1604 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I think the NHL has too many teams..

Definitely! They've had too many teams for a long, long time. I am old enough to remember the days of only six teams.
I think that anything over about 20 dilutes the talent pool too much. The fewer teams you have, the more elite the talent of the players in the league and the better the caliber of play. They aren't going to contract though, even if that would benefit the game IMHO.
If they do expand, I really hope Seattle gets a team - they're trying to land one for the fancy new area Chris Hanson wants to build so it can hold both NBA and NHL games. I grew up in Chicago and used to love going to Blackhawks games so I miss the NHL. Going down the street to see the Thunderbirds doesn't cut it as far a satisfying my need for a hockey fix.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2):
the NHL needs to either contract

^^^^^^^^ THIS.

NHL has burned itself down already twice now, had failing franchises in too many non-core markets and don't learn. Bettman will be the man who destroyed pro hockey before this is over.

They ought to contract right now to keep the talent consistent if nothing else.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1591 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
but why?

Munny. It's a business, they want to expand it.

Fair point but if you looked at the NHL like an airline who can serve limited cities, cut the ones that bleed money like the OP's team and move them to markets where they will profit. The NHL can expand it's bottom line without adding teams as there are markets like Kansas City, Seattle, Quebec city and another team in Toronto that can make a better go of it.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I think the NHL has too many teams....but being a hardened PHX Coyotes fan I don't want to see them relocate...so in a sense, I'm for and against expansion- for, because it keeps teams like PHX and Dallas, and against because there's too many teams to begin with.

If Phoenix was owned by an owner that didn't mind being in the red and it was coming out of his pocketbook that is fine, but the fact that they are owned and controlled by the NHL is the biggest issue I have.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1579 times:

The only positive thing I see with an expansion is the possible return of a team in Quebec City. A place that breathes, eats and dreams hockey.

That said, I'm against another expansion. I, too, think there are too many teams in the NHL. If I had to choose, I'd rather have 26-team league with no team in Quebec City than a 32-team league with a team in Quebec City.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2):
Except that's not how the NHL works. Many franchises are losing money because of expansion, because Bettman has this manifest destiny mandate to penetrate markets that couldn't care less about hockey.

Recently, I believe in Forbes sometime last year, it was stated that Anaheim, Phoenix, Florida, and Columbus were collectively losing $70M annually. This is estimated to be what Montreal, Toronto, and New York Rangers clear. It is now thought that the seven Canadian teams are subsidising the American-based franchises, due to revenue sharing. What is interesting is that the Jets, playing in the smallest building in the smallest city in the league, according to Forbes, cleared $13M last year, without benefit of HNIC money (same this year I believe). Many of the US-based franchises would give their eye teeth for that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 2):
Phoenix is a perfect example. Their fans are the definition of "fair weather fans". They only fill the arena when they are in the playoffs. Teams like this shouldn't exist.

What needs to happen is what recently happened to Atlanta. The free market economy did its magic and moved a failing Atlanta team to a hockey-hungry Winnipeg market, which has now sold out all games from now until eternity.

As an original (WHA) Winnipeg Jets season ticket holder (and later shareholder), I bled when the team moved to Phoenix. But the best overall solution to the Phoenix situation, now that 'the sale' seems to be threatened, is to move the team to Quebec City. They can hang out in Le Colisee for 2-3 years until the new building is ready. No precedent there, the Kansas City Scouts have moved twice: they are now the New Jersey Devils, after a brief stop in Colorado (Rockies).

Moving another American-based team to Toronto, assuming the new GTA Centre gets built, also makes sense. Which one it would be, I am not sure. One thing that is certain is that a 2nd Toronto franchise would make a sh*tload of money. BTW, City Council in Markham voted 7-6 early this AM to continue the GTA Centre proposal, doesn't mean it will get built, but it's a step in the process. But I think this means a definitive proposal and financial plan will be brought forward fairly soon.

Shrinking the league, initially to 28 teams, later to 24, would be a good move. Expansion is just not feasible, there is not a sufficient talent pool. Look at Jets 2.0, they have 2 or maybe 3 AHL-calibre defensemen on the roster (Clitsome, Postma, and maybe Hainsey), and an AHLer up front (Wright). Shrinking would help to correct this.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
NHL has burned itself down already twice now, had failing franchises in too many non-core markets and don't learn. Bettman will be the man who destroyed pro hockey before this is over.

To be fair, Bettman has done a couple of good things, the salary floor and cap being an example. However, his personality rubs almost everyone the wrong way, and his dog in the manger attitude vis-a-vis labour relations has really hurt the league. "Cut my nose off to spite my face" is not good policy. His day is done and he should be fired. Ziegler looks good by comparison.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 6):
That said, I'm against another expansion. I, too, think there are too many teams in the NHL. If I had to choose, I'd rather have 26-team league with no team in Quebec City than a 32-team league with a team in Quebec City.

I'd rather have 26 healthy teams with no team in Quebec than a 32 team league with lots of sick franchises. But moving the Yotes to Quebec at least alleviates one issue.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinenorthstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3024 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1504 times:
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Quoting connies4ever (Reply 7):
Recently, I believe in Forbes sometime last year, it was stated that Anaheim, Phoenix, Florida, and Columbus were collectively losing $70M annually. This is estimated to be what Montreal, Toronto, and New York Rangers clear. It is now thought that the seven Canadian teams are subsidising the American-based franchises, due to revenue sharing. What is interesting is that the Jets, playing in the smallest building in the smallest city in the league, according to Forbes, cleared $13M last year, without benefit of HNIC money (same this year I believe). Many of the US-based franchises would give their eye teeth for that.

Just to be balanced, some of the US teams clear a good amount (Rangers, Islanders, Blackhawks, Redwigns, Bruins, Devils?) and some do ok (Penguins, Flyers, Sabres?)...
The problem has been for quite some time trying to force hockey as it were. Putting teams where hockey isn't a common sport...
Phoenix, Florida, Southern California, yes they have massive population bases but people there don't play hockey, at least ice hockey, and so these areas will always lag behind. Compound it with the economic situation in cities like St Louis, Columbus, etc... and the revenue stream just isn't rosy.

I agree with a contraction to 28 teams again... 26 I think is a little too far. Move a team to Quebec City (Panthers? or Blue Jackets?), and another to either Hamilton or London ON (Coyotes just to balance the relocations east vs west), Those 2 markets can support teams (regardless of how much bitching the Sabres and Leafs make about it). Then cut 2 teams, Blue Jackets or Panthers and Predators would be my picks... Rearrange the conferences to move one team west to replace the cut team (Jets would be the most obvious option, but not the only).



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6816 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 7):
"Cut my nose off to spite my face" is not good policy. His day is done and he should be fired.

I agree completely on this about Bettman. The problem is that his pugnacious approach was a 'take it or leave it' deal....and that many NHL guys eagerly jumped back over to Europe to play. Whoops, Bettman's bluff was called. And therein added to the stalemate.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 8):
Just to be balanced, some of the US teams clear a good amount (Rangers, Islanders, Blackhawks, Redwigns, Bruins, Devils?) and some do ok (Penguins, Flyers, Sabres?)...

Never said all the other US-based teams were losing tons, but the "Flab Four" are money pits. Devils I believe are technically if not legally bankrupt (or the holding company is) and this is likely related to the ownership struggle. Islanders have been losing big-time lately, the move to Brooklyn may or may not save them. They have long been thought of as the team to move to Toronto/Markham. Sabres ? Don't know, but the economic situation there is not great.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
Bettman will be the man who destroyed pro hockey before this is over.

I think that's a bit of an over-exaggeration. He's not good for fans, but he knows how to make money.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 6):
The only positive thing I see with an expansion is the possible return of a team in Quebec City. A place that breathes, eats and dreams hockey.

It would be a shame to see any city get a team before Quebec.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 8):
Just to be balanced, some of the US teams clear a good amount (Rangers, Islanders,

The Islanders are definitely not on that list. They've been hemorrhaging money the past few years.

Quoting slider (Reply 9):
and that many NHL guys eagerly jumped back over to Europe to play.

And were even more eager to come back to the NHL. Only the KHL pays anywhere near the amount the NHL pays.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2798 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1428 times:
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They need to dump teams rather than expand. Columbus, Carolina, Phoenix, and Florida should be peeing their pants right about now. My roommate lives in North Carolina and we were throwing around the idea of going down there for Spring break and hanging at his house. We figured what the hell, maybe we'll go see a game. Cheap seats were 11 dollars each. We figured man we may as well check out Winnipeg, if we can get a pretty decent deal for cheap seats we are going to head up there for a game. Cost? 149 CAD per ticket, again the cheap seats. I couldn't believe the difference in prices. That was average too. For the Jets vs Penguins game last week (my roommate is a huge Pens fan) the cheapest was 250! I just can't understand how they can allow teams like Phoenix operate when the stands are empty when teams up here in the great white north can pack them in for miles. Add another team in Canada and get rid of the loss makers.
Blue



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User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
The Islanders are definitely not on that list. They've been hemorrhaging money the past few years.

I have no issue with insisting that a team has to be profitable, they have an owner who is willing to lose money which is fine and just idiotic. I have an issue when a team like Phoenix is run by the league when a guy like Jim Balsille offered to buy it and move it to Hamilton where it would have made money.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently onlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11659 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1362 times:

Some people complain about the "long" playoffs but that is the other thing about the NHL I like. I do think four teams should go away and that would be the four least profitiable teams. I have never, to this day, understood why the Whalers went away and why Phoenix got a team. Portland had been trying to get a team for years.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1337 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
We figured man we may as well check out Winnipeg, if we can get a pretty decent deal for cheap seats we are going to head up there for a game. Cost? 149 CAD per ticket, again the cheap seats.

Avg price per seat last year was $85 CAD, 5th highest price in the league. I got comp'd for the season opener, Bank of Montreal luxury suite (very nice !), but paid for New Year's Eve against the Leafs. $270 for 2 corner seats mid-level. There are seats available in the $50 range, but not many. Remember that capacity is 15,004, but about 400 or so seats are reserved for league officials, scouts, and the associated ladies. Season tickets are capped at 13,000. Doesn't leave many for single game sales, and this is done by auction.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 13):
I have an issue when a team like Phoenix is run by the league when a guy like Jim Balsille offered to buy it and move it to Hamilton where it would have made money.[/i]

Phoenix got a team because at the time it seemed to have a strong owner in Steve Ellman, which Jets 1.0 did not have. As it turned out Ellman had a case of the shorts, and so did his successor. Now looks like the "new new guy" will not have his ownership group put together before the lease proposal expires, and the new mayor says it will not be extended. So, either it's Hulsizer's group from Chicago who I believe have not been shy about mentioning Las Vegas, or the team moves to Quebec. Pierre Peladeau wants the franchise and he is a kajillionaire. Rather like the Winnipeg ownership group headed by David Thompson, apparently the 17th or 18th richest person on the planet.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
I have never, to this day, understood why the Whalers went away and why Phoenix got a team.

Per above.

But to repeat myself, expanding to 32 teams would be a big mistake, IMHO.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Um......well, ok, i get it....but why?

Shouldn't they try to get a complete season done five years in a row first?

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
I think the NHL has too many teams....

I'm not sure that is the truth, but the NHL does have a problem in that some markets are simply not hockey markets on the level necessary to support a top level team.

What the NHL really has is too many bad team owners.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1312 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 8):
The problem has been for quite some time trying to force hockey as it were. Putting teams where hockey isn't a common sport...
Phoenix, Florida, Southern California, yes they have massive population bases but people there don't play hockey, at least ice hockey, and so these areas will always lag behind.

As a southern hockey fan (or at least, someone who started out as southern), I absolutely hate hearing the argument that because of sunny weather, hockey will not succeed. If the NHL didn't expand to the sunbelt, it would have doomed itself to being a niche sport, one ignoring the demographic trends of the U.S. that saw the population move to the sunbelt for economic reasons. Hockey may be a cult following in the south, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have a devoted fanbase present. Also, the nature of some of the markets are those of fair-weather fandom. In most of these southern markets, you usually have one team that always sells out or will always do well at the gate--in L.A. it's the Lakers, in Dallas, it's the Cowboys--but these markets also have teams from other leagues who struggle at the gate when their teams play poorly, and succeed when the team is winning. I grew up in Dallas, so I'll use this as my example, but back in the 90s both the Rangers and the Mavericks weren't doing so well, and they routinely played to half-empty stadiums. The Stars on the other hand, were the hot ticket in town, routinely selling out Reunion Arena. When the stars started to struggle and the Mavericks and the Rangers started playing better, then the attendance figures reversed.

Bettman's sunbelt strategy shouldn't be deemed to be a short-term failure--you have to look at it 20-30 years down the line, when a generation of kids in those markets not previously exposed to hockey starting playing it--and we are now starting to see the fruits of that strategy paying off as California kids who developed in the local leagues there (Before moving at 15 or 16 for better competition) are now routinely drafted in the first round, and kids from Texas are also being drafted.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
. I couldn't believe the difference in prices

Difference in ticket prices does not mean a team is unprofitable. Arena deals and local tv contracts matter just as much. The Stars, for example, are one of the cheapest tickets in the NHL, but they rank around 10-15 in Forbes ranking of valuable franchises because the Stars and the Mavericks co-own the American Airlines Center, and split revenue of non-hockey/non-basketball activities takign place there.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
I'm not sure that is the truth, but the NHL does have a problem in that some markets are simply not hockey markets on the level necessary to support a top level team.

How soon do people forget certain markets that are now seen as successes were once thought to be failures or played ot half-empty arenas? Pittsburgh, pre-Sidney Crosby, the Capitals pre-Ovechkin. Chicago before Old Wirtz died didn't do that well at the arena, etc.

I admit that certain markets haven't worked out as planned--the Coyotes for example, for a variety of reasons, including where they put the new arena.

That said, back to the original question: more expansion is a joke. Talent is already diluted enough. Relocation yes, but not expansion.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

I think they have two problems, too many teams and too long a season, one can see the difficulties the NBA and Baseball have with their long seasons, at least baseball limited the number of teams making the playoffs, the recent expansion is a one game playoff, sudden death like football generates excitement.

Too many teams make the NHL playoff, so any team that has not made the playoff in like 5 seasons really do not deserve to be in the league.

So solution, cut the number of teams, reduce the length of of the season, decrease the number of playoff teams, allow the excitement to re-build the interest in Hockey then look to expand.
I also think this is the way for Baseball and Basketball, everyone in the NBA is just waitring for the playoffs, including the players.


User currently offlinenorthstardc4m From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3024 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1287 times:
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Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
As a southern hockey fan (or at least, someone who started out as southern), I absolutely hate hearing the argument that because of sunny weather, hockey will not succeed. If the NHL didn't expand to the sunbelt, it would have doomed itself to being a niche sport, one ignoring the demographic trends of the U.S. that saw the population move to the sunbelt for economic reasons. Hockey may be a cult following in the south, but it doesn't change the fact that you still have a devoted fanbase present. Also, the nature of some of the markets are those of fair-weather fandom. In most of these southern markets, you usually have one team that always sells out or will always do well at the gate--in L.A. it's the Lakers, in Dallas, it's the Cowboys--but these markets also have teams from other leagues who struggle at the gate when their teams play poorly, and succeed when the team is winning. I grew up in Dallas, so I'll use this as my example, but back in the 90s both the Rangers and the Mavericks weren't doing so well, and they routinely played to half-empty stadiums. The Stars on the other hand, were the hot ticket in town, routinely selling out Reunion Arena. When the stars started to struggle and the Mavericks and the Rangers started playing better, then the attendance figures reversed.

I'm not saying that in some cases they aren't viable, I'm saying they overexposed the league in places where hockey isn't ever going to be a major sport. Dallas and LA are big enough to hold teams just by sheer numbers. Phoenix never was going to. Las Vegas might, but it won't be locals filling the seats. Tampa Bay does best when they are playing Toronto, Buffalo, Montreal or Ottawa, and the local fans are outnumbers 3 or 4 to 1. Last game i saw in Tampa the arena was maybe 20% filled, and tickets were dirt cheap (hotel concierge got us seats on the lower level 3rd row behind penalty box for $25 each)... they were playing Philly.

Florida should have 1 team, and it should be Tampa, the Panthers are even worse attendance wise... probably the low numbers of Canadian tourists in Miami vs Tampa/Orlando.

Atlanta should in my mind of been able to hold a team by population, but now it's failed to TWICE...

Now you want to go crazy... here's what I'd do to hold 30 team size:


Predators to Quebec City - Nordiques
Panthers to Hamilton/London/Kitcherner/etc - Tigers
Hurricanes to Markham/Oshawa/etc - ?... Wanderers maybe
Coyotes to Salt Lake City - still Coyotes
Blue Jackets to Saskatoon or Halifax - ?



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1287 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
How soon do people forget certain markets that are now seen as successes were once thought to be failures or played ot half-empty arenas?

I was working at the Dallas Morning News, in the Sports Department, on the night the announcement was made the North Stars were moving to Dallas. We had a lot of 'fun' remaking the front page and sports front page quickly that night.

(The joke in the newsroom that night is that Dallas would finally have three professional teams - the Mavricks being considered among the worst in the NBA at the time.)

I don't count Dallas as a 'non-hockey' market. There was already a solid core of displaced Yankees in Dallas to give the sport of hockey a fan base. There was already at least one youth hockey league and a couple young adult leagues.

Even I have learned to appreciate hockey. It did help tremendously that the team did well and built their heroes like Eddie the Eagle and Modano.

(I've seen years when the Cowboys did not sell out the stadium, but not as often as the other three teams.)

However there are other cities when the NHL has tried to go, and hockey teams have tried to add minor league teams - which simply don't have that displaced Yankee fan base.

Atlanta appears to be such a city, and possibly Charlotte.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7578 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1261 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
Shouldn't they try to get a complete season done five years in a row first?

   True.


Well to defend PHX ... they did have a divisional championship last year.....



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineBTVB6Flyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 218 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1255 times:

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 19):
I'm not saying that in some cases they aren't viable, I'm saying they overexposed the league in places where hockey isn't ever going to be a major sport. Dallas and LA are big enough to hold teams just by sheer numbers. Phoenix never was going to. Las Vegas might, but it won't be locals filling the seats. Tampa Bay does best when they are playing Toronto, Buffalo, Montreal or Ottawa, and the local fans are outnumbers 3 or 4 to 1. Last game i saw in Tampa the arena was maybe 20% filled, and tickets were dirt cheap (hotel concierge got us seats on the lower level 3rd row behind penalty box for $25 each)... they were playing Philly.

I'm not sure when the last time you went to a game in Tampa, but this year we have sold out every single home game and we have been above 96% capacity fro the past couple of years. Here in Tampa the Bolts are the most supported franchise even above MLB and NFL.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1236 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
If the NHL didn't expand to the sunbelt, it would have doomed itself to being a niche sport, one ignoring the demographic trends of the U.S. that saw the population move to the sunbelt for economic reasons.

Sorry, but the sporting world doesn't revolve around the US. The NHL could operate in Canada alone and still be wildly profitable. It's the attitude that hockey is niche which is exactly why people consider hockey in the south to be just a hobby.

The only reason teams exist down south is because Bettman predicted huge untapped potential, and he fell short. Whether southern hockey fans like it or not, that stats don't lie. Interest in hockey down there is extremely volatile and only dependent on wins. Until southern teams start packing arenas when they're losing, people will maintain the view that they should be packing up and moving north.

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
back in the 90s both the Rangers and the Mavericks weren't doing so well, and they routinely played to half-empty stadiums. The Stars on the other hand, were the hot ticket in town, routinely selling out Reunion Arena. When the stars started to struggle and the Mavericks and the Rangers started playing better, then the attendance figures reversed.

That's sort of what some people are arguing. In strong hockey markets such as Canada, and a select number of teams in the northern states, such trends don't occur. They can be faltering while other sports teams are succeeding, yet they will still command 90+% attendance. It just goes to show that southern fans just want to see a team win, they don't want to just see hockey. That's not true fandom in my opinion.

Quoting us330 (Reply 17):
and kids from Texas are also being drafted.

But where are they being drafted out of? It sure isn't Texas. All the best southern players leave their states to play in the CHL or NCAA Div I teams in New England or the 3M's

Quoting par13del (Reply 18):
Too many teams make the NHL playoff, so any team that has not made the playoff in like 5 seasons really do not deserve to be in the league.

So the Toronto Maple Leafs, one of the most legendary teams on the planet, who is one of the most valuable sports franchises in North America, who continues to sell out every single game...shouldn't even be in the league?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
Shouldn't they try to get a complete season done five years in a row first?

They have. Last lockout was in 2005. That's 7 years if I do my math correctly...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1234 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 21):
Well to defend PHX ... they did have a divisional championship last year.....

Considering all the issues the players and coaches had to mentally juggle, an amazing achievement. But the fact remains that Phoenix, for the NHL, is a moneypit. Time to pack up and move north. Phoenix would be better served with either an AHL or ECHL team.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 20):
I don't count Dallas as a 'non-hockey' market. There was already a solid core of displaced Yankees in Dallas to give the sport of hockey a fan base. There was already at least one youth hockey league and a couple young adult leagues.

Dallas has had pro hockey in one form or another for a long time. Out in Manitoba I played intermediate hockey. One of my teammates played three seasons for the Dallas Black Hawks of the old Central League. This would have around 1970-72 or so.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23):
Sorry, but the sporting world doesn't revolve around the US. The NHL could operate in Canada alone and still be wildly profitable. It's the attitude that hockey is niche which is exactly why people consider hockey in the south to be just a hobby.

  

If it were up to me I would choose 16-20 teams in North America and about the same in Europe and start a Transatlantic league. You would travel across the pond once or twice a year and play everyone in one shot and then the playoffs are within each continent with the Stanley Cup finals being played like the 1972 summit series.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 25):
If it were up to me I would choose 16-20 teams in North America and about the same in Europe and start a Transatlantic league. You would travel across the pond once or twice a year and play everyone in one shot and then the playoffs are within each continent with the Stanley Cup finals being played like the 1972 summit series.

This idea has been kicked around for quite a while now. Going back to WHA days initially they stated a 6-team European division would occur (of course, the WHA said a lot of things during its' existence).

I have zero expectation this will happen, but I believe the NHL will continue to do exhibition games in Europe, some training camps (the WHA Jets actually did this twice), and a very limited number of league games, most likely season openers. I do not believe European hockey fans will commit to season tickets in anything like the numbers an NHL franchise would need, nor is there the television revenue pool available that would be comparable to what the various arrangements in North America provide.

If Red Bull owned the whole thing, maybe....



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5395 posts, RR: 52
Reply 27, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1231 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 12):
They need to dump teams rather than expand. Columbus, Carolina, Phoenix, and Florida should be peeing their pants right about now. My roommate lives in North Carolina and we were throwing around the idea of going down there for Spring break and hanging at his house. We figured what the hell, maybe we'll go see a game. Cheap seats were 11 dollars each.


Man, I'd love to know where your friend found these $11.00 tickets. I must be buying from the wrong team or something. As a 10-game season ticket holder, my nosebleeds behind the goal at PNC Arena are $19.00/game and if one were to walk up to buy those seats day of game, they'd be about $30.00. If your friend got them on Stubhub or some place like that, that's not the team selling those tickets but a season ticket holder. I can put my seats for sale on a resale site for $1.00 apiece, but the Hurricanes still have my $190/seat. And no, Carolina isn't "peeing in their pants." Karmanos is committed to the market and has sold a minority share of the team to various local investors and with the team acquiring Semin and Jordan Staal as well as up and coming players like Skinner and Justin Faulk, I think the future's bright. Get us back to the playoffs with any regularity and the 'Canes will continue to do quite well in Raleigh.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1220 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23):
So the Toronto Maple Leafs, one of the most legendary teams on the planet, who is one of the most valuable sports franchises in North America, who continues to sell out every single game...shouldn't even be in the league?

I can understand why the Panthers are not in the playoff on a regular basis, bad team, poor attendance hence little money to get good players, with all those sell outs and high attendance, what's the Maple Leafs problem?
Since their biggest fan in South Florida passed away - Neil Rodgers - I have not kept up with them  


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1200 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
poor attendance hence little money to get good players, with all those sell outs and high attendance, what's the Maple Leafs problem?

The NHL has a salary cap, so unlike the MLB, you can't just buy a good team. It takes a really good GM to attract quality players and to put a team together that will contend fr the Cup.

My own opinion is that the Leafs have relied far too heavily on young talent, and the risk hasn't paid off. They need to bring in a big name, one that is proven.

But hey, I'm a Habs fan, so I won't cry over the Leafs missing the playoffs  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
I can understand why the Panthers are not in the playoff on a regular basis, bad team, poor attendance hence little money to get good players, with all those sell outs and high attendance, what's the Maple Leafs problem?

They don't have any problem, it's in their genes to be bad!     



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 31, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1144 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
I can understand why the Panthers are not in the playoff on a regular basis, bad team, poor attendance hence little money to get good players, with all those sell outs and high attendance, what's the Maple Leafs problem?

Terrible Management from the players perspective and they can't spend like the Yankees in baseball, also Brian Burke (who just got fired) wouldn't sign any long term deals which turns off star players.

The biggest reason is because they sell out every game and the tickets cost a small fortune, with the team taking in that much dough there is no incentive to put a winner on the ice. If the fan's stopped going they would have a contender in a heartbeart, this is why you need a second team in Toronto because there will be competition for the leafs.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 32, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1127 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 23):
But where are they being drafted out of? It sure isn't Texas. All the best southern players leave their states to play in the CHL or NCAA Div I teams in New England or the 3M's

To further their development, once they hit 14/15 they play where there's better junior age competition. But they wouldn't be leaving the sunbelt if they didn't have at least the beginnings or foundations of skill/talent to compete with the Canadian and non-Sunbelt kids. The CHL, NAHL, NCAA D1 and USHL don't take kids who don't know how to skate and transform them into hockey players, they take kids that have proven they can play at the midget and bantam level, and see if they can continue to produce at higher levels of competition.
Yes, they are drafted out of their junior league, but NFL and NBA players are drafted from their college teams--colleges that may be in different locations from where the player played peewee or AAU ball.

A similar analogy could be used for all these tennis academies down in Florida. There are plenty of non-Florida born and raised athletes in these academies, but the athletes wouldn't be moving to Florida to further their development if they were not already talented tennis players.


User currently offlinedeltairlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1080 times:

Keep in mind the push for 32 (or what really should be the contract to 28, but Bettman won't do that, nor will the NHLPA agree since it means less NHL jobs...unless they expand rosters to make up for this...) is to get to the four-pod system that Bettman wants for conferences (which is something I would like to see).

That being said, I'm all in support for dropping two teams...and moving some teams.

Cities that can be dropped in my mind are (in order of most needing to be dropped in my opinion): Phoenix, Columbus, Florida, Carolina, Nashville (Tampa is safe right now)

Cities that can be brought back (again, in order of need in my opinion): Quebec City, Toronto/Hamilton (shame Bettman hates Balsillie), Seattle (this could be an attractive move with the new arena to keep costs down, easy access to the Canadian border/natural rivalry with the Canucks, very passionate sports city), Hartford, Kansas City (last two a stretch).

All told, drop two of the teams from list one, move two of the teams north of the border and presto - a decent setup.


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5395 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Sold out crowd tonight in Raleigh to see the Canes beat the Sens.


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1061 times:

I would love to see Seattle get a team, but does anyone think it would last?

I know you would have a close rivalry with Vancouver but I seriously doubt that would drive ticket sales for other games. People are pretty tight up here with money, and like PHX, if the team isn't winning the fans aren't coming out to the game. Just ask the Sonics (who we lost to OKC), Mariners and Seahawks (certainly not this year).
The other thing that is troubling is the stadium that would house an NBA team and NHL team. I have not seen the proposed design on the inside, but NBA teams seem to go for less steep layouts. I had Seattle Thunderbirds tickets when they were in Mercer Arena (no not Key Arena) where the seats were going up not back. It was great looking down on the ice. It was more of an in the action feeling. They moved to Key Arena and it sucked. Now they are in Showare which is much better.
Ticket prices. I have to admit I have not looked at NHL prices lately but it seems like a few years back the cheapest ticket for a Canucks game was $60. I think at the same time the cheapest for a Thunderbirds ticket was $9. They point to the T-Birds fan base as an indicator of possible ticket sales for the NHL team. I couldn't possible pay for a $60 or $75 ticket when I can go closer down the road and pay $25 or whatever it is now.
Anyway, I just don't see hockey working in Seattle.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 36, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 990 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 35):
I think at the same time the cheapest for a Thunderbirds ticket was $9. They point to the T-Birds fan base as an indicator of possible ticket sales for the NHL team

That could also be a function of the population only willing to pay a certain amount for a certain level/quality of play. Plenty of minor league sports teams operate in the same metro areas as major professional teams, and ticket prices are almost always lower for the minor league teams.

A more appropriate analogy for Tbirds games might be to compare ticket prices with the Vancouver Giants--who also play in the WHL.


User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2528 posts, RR: 7
Reply 37, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 969 times:

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 35):
I know you would have a close rivalry with Vancouver but I seriously doubt that would drive ticket sales for other games.

There are quite a lot of us "transplants" living in the Seattle area, much to the dismay of many Washington natives who have watched the population expand along with the attendant traffic headaches etc. I think there'd be a good bit of interest in going to games when someone's old hometown team came in. I for one would go see the Blackhawks since I am a Chicago boy at heart even though I've been here more years than I can count (OK that's a lie, I know how long it's been but you get my point)


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 38, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 880 times:

Quebec City has to be the next city, period. I do think it would be much better to get a team to relocate, than expansion. Phoenix is an obvious target, and I think Nashville is another market that has flopped. Seattle is a market that I don't see getting an NHL team until the Sacramento Kings in the NBA are moved there and build a new building that a potential NHL team could be a tenant in.

The only compelling reason for keeping Phoenix and the two Florida teams put is the fact that those are two areas which feature a lot of snowbirders. The Glendale arena is very close to Sun City, which is a major retirement community and has a lot of snowbirders from the upper midwest. Tampa is closer to snowbird markets than Sunrise (Florida Panthers), so if you were to condense the Florida markets, moving the Panthers would make a lot more sense. Still, you want a young fan base to thrive and young people playing hockey to become the future generation.

So if I were to relocate teams, I would start with Phoenix, Nashville, and Florida. I don't agree with Columbus because there are many good collegiate programs in the area, including Miami of Ohio and Ohio State, especially with the Big Ten starting a hockey conference. There will be a good fan base in Columbus if they get a good team.

For markets to get teams....Quebec City is obvious. Once the new arena is built, I think Seattle would work. Hamilton and a second Toronto franchise could work too. Halifax may be able to support a team, but I am not sure. And one longshot would be for a return of the Hartford Whalers. The issue the original team ran into was that with the Bruins, Rangers, Devils, and Islanders all also in the region, the team couldn't develop its own fan base.


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