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Conservative Criticizes Obama...  
User currently offlinehOmsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1215 times:

...Defends Nazis


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...senseless-holocaust-eliana-johnson

Quote:
Nazism may have been an ideology to which the United States was — and to which the president is — implacably opposed, but it is hardly “senseless.” By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections; its political leaders campaigned on a platform comprising 25 non-senseless points, including the “unification of all Germans,” a demand for “land and territory for the sustenance of our people,” and an assertion that “no Jew can be a member of the race.” Suffice it to say, many sensible Germans were persuaded.

Really? I mean...really?


I was raised by a cup of coffee.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1198 times:

I read the whole piece and, while a HUGE fan of NRO overall (albeit much less since WFB left us), I think this was a bit clunky.

I can only try to infer from the comments that, in context, 'senseless' may imply some incomprehensibility? ie: Nazism came about incrementally, over time, and was ultimately accepted and embraced--even voted into power--even with such a horrid platform regarding Jews.

Maybe the author is saying that 'senselessless' implies non-deliberation and spontaneity? Perhaps it's just semantics, but it was awkwardly written. I don't know.

But in the larger view of incrementalism, there's some truth there--that the slide of Germany into the abyss didn't happen overnight. There was some sense applied to it--in the broad scope of contemplation by the German people--it didn't just "happen"...there was human agency upon it that brought it about.

I dunno. Just a weird statement that's not terribly well written, whatever the intent was.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1177 times:

Quoting hOmsAR (Thread starter):
...Defends Nazis

Oh BS. He is making a point. One that apparently flew right over your head.

The point was that some people want to explain certain violent actions as "senseless", like the holocaust, or any number of jihadi actions. This is wrong - they are not senseless.

sense·less (snsls)
adj.
1. Lacking sense or meaning; meaningless.
2. Deficient in sense; foolish or stupid.
3. Insensate; unconscious.

Someone with a brain tumor goes nuts and starts attacking people in the street naked is senseless. You ask them afterwards, and they'll be the first to admit "I don't know why I did it". That is senseless.

What the Nazis did, and what Jihadis do today, makes perfect sense when you take into account the philosophy and history on which they were drawn. Antisemitism had very deep roots in Europe, combined with German Nationalism that grew out of the 19th century, when Germans found out that if unified they were an exceedingly powerful force, and pushed in that direction by the writings of the likes of Fichte, Jahn and Arndt, philosophers such as Nietzsche, Hegel, and Kant - all the "Romantics". Hitler and the Nazis were NOT an aberration. They were the logical conclusion of a process and philosophy born a long time earlier. Same with militant Islam / Jihadists. Their actions make perfect sense in relation to their beliefs and history, going back to well before Mohammed - who borrowed liberally from other religions in the region that pre-dated him. There is nothing "senseless" about a Jihadi blowing himself up in a marketplace.

But the fact that they are not senseless, and are founded in a logical structure does not negate the fact they are both evil and must be exterminated.

The point of the article was not to praise Nazis, as you claim. The point is that trying to tell the public that something makes no sense is misleading and counterproductive.

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."
- Sun Tzu

Every American, indeed every Westerner, should educate themselves about Islam - particularly the radical branch of it - the ones who think they are on a mission from God to convert or subjugate everyone. We should know why they do what they do so that A) we can devise better strategies against them, and B) so that we can make efforts to avoid such philosophies ever gaining traction again. The Germans did a pretty good job of that after WWII.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

The article was poorly written Trash. More sense was made about what the author may have been trying to infer by what Dreadnought posted. However it took Dreadnought much more space and inference to draw his point.

However the quote by Obama was directed at the Holocaust, and not at the whole entity of the Nazi Party. The Holocaust in every sense was foolish, and stupid violence if you take that point of meaning.
What the NR author tries to do here is ties a outcome to a portion of the input variables. I can't even be sure that author was trying to do that as the article was just trash pulled from a shredder that she tried to piece together.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):

The article was poorly written Trash. More sense was made about what the author may have been trying to infer by what Dreadnought posted. However it took Dreadnought much more space and inference to draw his point.

Different audience. The readership of the National Review is highly educated. 75% managerial/professional, 42% have Post-graduate degrees, very active politically and charities/social work etc etc. The inference in the article is obvious to the educated. I just dumbed it down and gave some background which some people here (like the OP) might not be aware of. You can't give a doctoral-level seminar to 9th graders.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The inference in the article is obvious to the educated.

What, are there educated conservatives? I thought studies showed that conservatives in general were less intelligent than liberals.

Well, I guess with money and right contacts you can buy good grades in the US.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1132 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 6):
What, are there educated conservatives? I thought studies showed that conservatives in general were less intelligent than liberals.

Well, I guess with money and right contacts you can buy good grades in the US.

That's the propaganda you get. I find this to be more typical.




Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1095 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The inference in the article is obvious to the educated.

Obviously not based on the comments in her article, and also the long article, and oppostion slander you had to write to defend it However if that is what you consider a good well read site. I have to laugh. The advertisements and articles themselves are seemingly assembled by the lowest common denominator.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1074 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that was done tongue-in-cheek. It's actually pretty funny if so.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1051 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 8):
Obviously not based on the comments in her article, and also the long article, and oppostion slander you had to write to defend it However if that is what you consider a good well read site. I have to laugh. The advertisements and articles themselves are seemingly assembled by the lowest common denominator.

Care to be more specific? You can't just say "that's stupid" and expect people to take you seriously.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 9):
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that was done tongue-in-cheek. It's actually pretty funny if so.

I thought about that too, but if someone were to write it as a joke, they wouldn't have kept it so sparse. The only part that indicates either a joke or an IQ of a pencil is the bit about "natural born". All the other instances of idiocy are straight out of standard-fare liberalism:

"...Government has the right.. otherwise why could New York & Chicago..."

"...Republicans' true plans... to make us all afraid"

"...Benefits of a more modern way of living..."

"All they do is whine and complain about the... Constitution..."

"...Republicans just stand in the way because the president is black..."

"...make life fair..."

All of these could have been said by Nancy Pelosi. If i were writing it as a joke, I would have included more than just one punch line.

[Edited 2013-02-01 11:48:45]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1038 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Care to be more specific? You can't just say "that's stupid" and expect people to take you seriously.

Really?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
inference in the article is obvious to the educated



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 999 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 11):
Really?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
inference in the article is obvious to the educated

And i provided a 9th grade explanation. You have provided nothing to back up your assertion.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 984 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
And i provided a 9th grade explanation. You have provided nothing to back up your assertion.

I don't have too. You made an assertion that the Article was for high browed intellectuals, and i made an assertion that the article was trash. I shouldn't have to explain why the article was trash as you were required to put up 3 seperate definitions of senseless in order to defend the Author's eroneous reach about the Nazi Partty, when Obama was directly referencing the Holocaust itself. But I guess high intellect people are able to only associate the Violence of the Holocaust with the Nazi Party, and since the Nazi Party as a whole made sense to the Author, t was a direct correlation for the readers of the Nation?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 970 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I thought about that too, but if someone were to write it as a joke, they wouldn't have kept it so sparse.

Why? That's what makes it funny - that it could be completely serious.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
All the other instances of idiocy are straight out of standard-fare liberalism:

Eh. I know a lot of liberals, and none of them spout that stuff. Key difference: most of the ones I know are smart.

Same goes for conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, whatever. I cringe whenever I see someone supporting an idea I agree with, but using just an awful argument to support it.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 953 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
You made an assertion that the Article was for high browed intellectuals

I never said any such thing. I said they were largely well-educated, successful professionals. What are generally called "high brow intellectuals" are usually college professor types who have a lot of theoretical knowledge but not a clue about how the real world works outside of academia.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
I shouldn't have to explain why the article was trash as you were required to put up 3 seperate definitions of senseless in order to defend the Author's eroneous reach about the Nazi Partty, when Obama was directly referencing the Holocaust itself.

So tell me what was so senseless about the Holocaust then. It just started happening in 1942 for no reason whatsoever, did it?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
Eh. I know a lot of liberals, and none of them spout that stuff. Key difference: most of the ones I know are smart.

A smart liberal? Call the press!

  



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 930 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
A smart liberal? Call the press!

Much like an open-minded conservative.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8769 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 924 times:

That blog entry is a piece of incoherent hyperpartisan garbage, plain and simple. It is nothing but an attempt at picking holes in Obama's statement - holes that couldn't even be opened up with a jackhammer, such as the first one:

Quote:
“the horrors of the cattle cars, ghettos, and concentration camps have witnessed humanity at its very worst and know too well the pain of losing loved ones to senseless violence.” (...)

The idea that all violence is “senseless” violence is one that has taken deep root on the left;

Nowhere in the quote from Obama's statement, or indeed the entire statement, does he say that all violence is senseless, so Johnson's blanket statement about "the left" is an attack on a straw man.

Quote:
it’s also, unfortunately, (an idea) that poses a major impediment to understanding the world.

It does not help to criticise someone's understanding of the world if you've just created a straw man to support your view of it.

Quote:
By the early 1930s, the Nazi party had hundreds of thousands of devoted members and repeatedly attracted a third of the votes in German elections

None of which actually explains their rise to power; the author also shows a dramatic lack of... understanding    of the end of the Weimar Republic.

Quote:
That, you may recall, is the day the president supposedly said the murders occurred as a result of a non-senseless terrorist attack carried out by jihadists.

Editorialising 101: If you have to use things that the enemy (and let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Obama isn't considered an enemy here) supposedly said to support your point of view, you are better off changing your point of view to one that is supported by things that he did say.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I just dumbed it down

It was pretty dumb as it was.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
i provided a 9th grade explanation

So do you think of many a.netters as intellectually equivalent to 9th graders?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
I never said any such thing. I said they were largely well-educated, successful professionals. What are generally called "high brow intellectuals" are usually college professor types who have a lot of theoretical knowledge but not a clue about how the real world works outside of academia.

My, my, how innovative... are you just copying the anti-intellectualism straight out of Mao's little red book?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
A smart liberal? Call the press!

Weren't you just speaking of dumbing things down?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25698 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 908 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

"Those who perished as a result of Nazi terror, millions of individual men and women and children whose lives were taken so senselessly, must never be forgotten." Ronald Reagan, February 2, 1983

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7980 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 904 times:

IDK, strange article, but what I read from it, they are celebrating the unification of Germany (I think.) And to be fair, minus the whole Holocaust and discrimination crap they pulled, the Nazis/Hitler did do a lot of good for Germany. Barring WWII and the Holocaust (had Hitler stopped short of invading Poland and onward) I think Hitler would have been viewed as a great leader that revitalized Germany and had some racist tenancies. I'm not defending the guy, I could be totally wrong, and I'm not even sure if that is what the article is saying.

But really, who cares... some online article says something crazy. I think we can find a lot of that today without really trying



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8769 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 887 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
IDK, strange article, but what I read from it, they are celebrating the unification of Germany

Not quite, I'm afraid. The author is simply trying to convince people that

a) Obama said that all violence is senseless (therefore he is a pacifist with a deranged view of the world)
b) a lot of sensible Germans saw sense in Nazi politics in the early 1930s (in reality, their desperation radicalised them)
c) a statement made on Holocaust Rememberance Day can somehow be linked to the Benghazi attack (a.k.a. if you fling enough excrement, some of it will stick).

It's just a politcal hack trying to bash Obama, without even having the decency to utter one word in memory of the victims that his statement remembers.


Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
And to be fair, minus the whole Holocaust and discrimination crap they pulled, the Nazis/Hitler did do a lot of good for Germany. Barring WWII and the Holocaust

That's like saying that cholera is a great way to lose weight. Racism, war and genocide were the quintessence of the Nazi tyranny, you cannot view anything they did or "achieved" without considering their goal: the establishment of a rule of the so-called master race.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
But really, who cares... some online article says something crazy. I think we can find a lot of that today without really trying

We'll always need to counter nonsense with sense - if we stop, the lunatics will take over the asylum.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 878 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Much like an open-minded conservative.

Hey, I'm just having some fun. You know why they call liberals open-minded? Because their brains fell out.

  

Quoting aloges (Reply 17):
My, my, how innovative... are you just copying the anti-intellectualism straight out of Mao's little red book?

It's the age-old battle between intelligence and the intelligentsia. Intellect vs intellectualism. The biggest difference between the two is that "intellectuals" like to call themselves intelligent, and give each others pieces of paper declaring each other to be intelligent, as opposed to all that riff-raff who go out and work for a living. Have you ever noticed that professionals and entrepreneurs, often with degrees out the yingyang, sometimes not, who build companies and products and end up employing thousands, and who are obviously extremely intelligent, never seem interested in calling themselves "intellectuals"?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 872 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Hey, I'm just having some fun.

Me too, don't worry. I just try to avoid over-using smileys on principle.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8769 posts, RR: 42
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 862 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
The biggest difference between the two is that "intellectuals" like to call themselves intelligent, and give each others pieces of paper declaring each other to be intelligent, as opposed to all that riff-raff who go out and work for a living.

Ah, now I've got it. You agree more with Pol Pot than with Mao. Back to the farm we go!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Have you ever noticed that professionals and entrepreneurs, often with degrees out the yingyang, sometimes not, who build companies and products and end up employing thousands, and who are obviously extremely intelligent, never seem interested in calling themselves "intellectuals"?

Among the things that I have noticed in this respect are:

Intelligence comes in many flavours, the key is to find out where you can use yours to the greatest potential.
The only intelligent generalisation is that generalisations are not intelligent.
The words "intelligent" and "intellectual" aren't usually thrown around by the people who are.
While building a company does require intelligence, it also requires leadership qualities - not all of them positive.
Few of the people whose everlasting changes to our world we remember were businessmen.
Many intelligent businessmen realise that monetary fortunes pass, so they become patrons of the arts or research.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 697 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
So tell me what was so senseless about the Holocaust then. It just started happening in 1942 for no reason whatsoever, did it?

It was foolish. Just because there was a method to the madness, does not make it a sensible thing. It was a senseless event, that did nothing to advance the Nazi party.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
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