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Ex-Navy Sniper, Another Military Vet Killed At Tex  
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

Ironic to say the least. You can't make this stuff up.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/justic...sniper-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


You can cut the irony with a knife
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

So? What's your point? RIP, but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them. In fact, with all the shooting that goes on at gun ranges, I'm surprised there aren't more.

Why don't we address the larger issue instead of just fluxes? The fact that the most common guns used in crime (I can provide a link later if you like, or just google it) are small pistols and I think a shotgun made it on the top 10 list... all of them holding about 8 or less rounds, cheap and crappy so you can throw them away afterwards. I'm not saying you can't tackle more than one issue at once, but in the long run, assault weapon kills and shootings at gun ranges are soooooo insignificant compared to the bulk of gun violence in this nation which I haven't seen addressed yet.

And no, I'm not just some crazy gun nut against every piece of legislation, read my posts on this site



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
So? What's your point? RIP, but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them. In fact, with all the shooting that goes on at gun ranges, I'm surprised there aren't more.

My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

The shooting range must have been a "gun-free zone".

Anyway, an armed security guard might have prevented this incident.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Thread starter):
Ironic to say the least. You can't make this stuff up.

Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

Without more details my expectation is this is similar to many car deaths. A tragic event that can't be avoided without creating bigger problems.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

Norwegians probably said something similar, no one in the world is safe from it. I don't recall anyone ever saying anyone was free from gun violence. Who did say that, may I ask?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Norwegians probably said something similar, no one in the world is safe from it. I don't recall anyone ever saying anyone was free from gun violence. Who did say that, may I ask?

I said it for one.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

   Thank you sir for the honest reply. I know your thoughts on this issue and you know mine, so props for not instantly jumping on the bandwagon.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
I said it for one.

Well my friend, no one is. No decorated military vet, no one in a country with very strong gun control. I'm all up for an honest discussion on the issue, I think you'd find that for a gun owner, I'm surprisingly close to many of yall on these issues. But this isn't an honest discussion, it's another tired thread that disproves something no one has said



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Well my friend, no one is. No decorated military vet, no one in a country with very strong gun control. I'm all up for an honest discussion on the issue, I think you'd find that for a gun owner, I'm surprisingly close to many of yall on these issues. But this isn't an honest discussion, it's another tired thread that disproves something no one has said

I just said it and I do in fact exisits. Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Quoting cmf (Reply 4):Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

Thank you sir for the honest reply. I know your thoughts on this issue and you know mine, so props for not instantly jumping on the bandwagon.

Since the decorated ex-Navy Seal acknowledged suffering from PTSD, as did the other vet killed and also the shooter - presumably in a strict gun control environment - none of them would have had guns. Somehow I doubt that would ever have happened.

From the local stories, it appears that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield had taken Eddie Routh to the gun range to help him work out some PTSD issues.

I doubt we will ever know what triggered the shooting. My guess is something was said which the shooter took wrong, and he snapped.

This is THE STORY in the Dallas area - almost eclipsing the Super Bowl - but it is really just a tragic incident.

Whether it was an ex-Seal or Joe civilian - the death are sad.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.

Again, I don't recall anyone (except you, if that is what you're saying) claiming that anyone is safe from gun violence. Did Dreadnought say that? fr8mech? L-188? flastaff? I don't recall them saying that. It's like saying drivers ed teachers can still die in car crashes or Olympic gymnasts can still break their necks... no one is saying they can't



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1596 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
Again, I don't recall anyone (except you, if that is what you're saying) claiming that anyone is safe from gun violence. Did Dreadnought say that? fr8mech? L-188? flastaff? I don't recall them saying that.

I didn't know that they were the experts on the subject.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 11):
I didn't know that they were the experts on the subject.

OK then what experts are saying that no one is safe from guns? I cannot recall anyone that said that. The whole point of the thread (as you said in reply 2) is that no one is safe from gun violence, which is like saying grass is green and the sky is blue, no one is debating that



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

I see the irony in the situation based on one of deceased's own words that he wrote about his career as a sniper, and the enemy.

However it is still a tragic incident that two men were killed by a man whom they trusted enough to go shooting with and were attempting to help based on current information.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.

People that think they are safe from gun violence have never really contemplated what a gun was designed for. No one is 100% safe. However some are theoretically safer based on demographics and choices.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

He was still human. Bullets tend to not care about decorations or past accomplishments. Nice of you to take a thread about a deceased American hero who was trying to help someone and try to turn it into a gun control debate. Save it for another thread, will you?



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
Since the decorated ex-Navy Seal acknowledged suffering from PTSD, as did the other vet killed and also the shooter - presumably in a strict gun control environment - none of them would have had guns.

I think this is the most interesting element for this story and the debate on this point alone is huge.

Should someone diagnosed with PTSD (and any number of other psychological issues), by allowed to have a gun, own a gun, etc. It is an important question in the debate of what types of controls there should be on access to firearms, and what things will exclude someone from access or ownership.

This is in addition to but separate from the idea of ID checks for all gun sales etc.

So should someone clinically diagnosed with PTSD have free access to guns (Yes, I understand this incident occurred at a firing range which is a controlled situation)? By the way I do not know if there are differing levels of PTSD diagnosis though I do know that how people are affected by it do vary greatly.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
So should someone clinically diagnosed with PTSD have free access to guns (Yes, I understand this incident occurred at a firing range which is a controlled situation)? By the way I do not know if there are differing levels of PTSD diagnosis though I do know that how people are affected by it do vary greatly.

This is a really good and legitimate debate (as opposed to the shameful and/or confusing original debate in this thread) and I'll even go a step further and point out that a lot of these guys that have PTSD are the ones with the big guns fighting over in the ME. I haven't heard of too many incidents, if any at all, of PTSD coming out overseas, it seems to be really bad when someone is not in a war zone...

And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates, but in many gun control debates, the gun violence is the symptom of something greater. Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc. And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1543 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates, but in many gun control debates, the gun violence is the symptom of something greater. Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc. And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)

Is that a reason to stop trying. I guess irony does not translate well to the Internet. I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7982 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1537 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
Is that a reason to stop trying.

NO. When did I say that???? I even said "And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates." Look at my posts in other threads too. I was just, again, agreeing with your common sense point in reply 2

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.

I guess...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6962 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
From the local stories, it appears that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield had taken Eddie Routh to the gun range to help him work out some PTSD issues.

Seemed like a great plan from the start. Next time I suggest going to a grenade range.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1499 times:

This appears to be more of a PTSD issue than a gun issue. Two vets trying to help a third with a problem.

User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6181 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1493 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I haven't heard of too many incidents, if any at all, of PTSD coming out overseas, it seems to be really bad when someone is not in a war zone...

PTSD was a huge deal back in the 1980s. In the 1980s it seemed like every mad gunman, bomber, ruthless criminal was a Vietnam vet. It was usually the first thing mentioned in the headline before the crime was even mentioned. The story line usually went something like ; "Vietnam Vet murders......" Vietnam Vet drove his car into...." Vietnam Vet beats....."


If you want to take away guns from every PTSD sufferer you better take away the guns from every single combat vet in this country, because sometimes symptoms take years to show up. Good luck with that!!! My grandfather had PTSD issues from his combat time in the Pacific in WWII and his father had PTSD (what it is now called) from his time in WWI. My dad has issues from Vietnam, which have gotten worse as he has become older. None of these people were/are unstable people who are going to murder anyone, but they have issues with PTSD none the less.





Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.

When I first heard it I assumed somebody killed him in retribution for what he did.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them

There have been a fair number of suicides at gun ranges in the Detroit area recently. One shooting range by me had a couple of them recently. People go in, rent a gun, and shoot themselves on purpose. Oddly this only seems to happen at high profile ranges with gun rental.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1482 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 14):
He was still human. Bullets tend to not care about decorations or past accomplishments. Nice of you to take a thread about a deceased American hero who was trying to help someone and try to turn it into a gun control debate. Save it for another thread, will you?



I was pointing out the irony of the situation. I did not ever bring up control of any kind. So don't put words into my post.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1472 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
Should someone diagnosed with PTSD (and any number of other psychological issues), by allowed to have a gun, own a gun, etc.

From what I have read, the man's PTSD was related to the fear of gunfire. Such issues are frequently treated by taking the person to a range, where he can get used to loud noises being present that are controlled, and not indicative of impending death. His two friends took him to the range for exactly this purpose. Apparently he wigged out, and shot both his buddies in the back.

While I have no competence to judge whether PTSD is reason enough to blacklist a person from owning a firearm, even that might not have been enough in this case - as going to the range was part of standard therapy, and could have happened even with a borrowed gun.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1466 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc.

But that's kind of the irony in this situation, here you have a guy (Kyle) that obviously likes guns and believes in the power of guns trying to use guns to help someone with PTSD. Don't you think there's something a bit bizarre about taking someone with PTSD to a gun range to help them with their problems?? It seems kind of like taking someone fighting alcoholism on a brewery tour.

It points to me to a cultural problem where guns are viewed as a solution to problems rather than what they really are which is a nasty side effect of other problems. This is a line we've seen pushed heavily by the NRA. What was the NRA's solution to the shooting at Newtown? More guns (by way of security guards).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)

But clearly in some comparable parts of the world, people are safer comparative to the United States. Even if you strip out the drug/gang related violence, the U.S. still has a gun violence problem.


25 Post contains links Dreadnought : How do you cure claustrophobia? Don't you put the person into smaller and smaller places and teach him how to deal with it? The Newtown Board of Educ
26 rfields5421 : There are different levels, at least based upon how the VA is currently dealing with the issue. My son receives a percentage of disability rating/ pa
27 falstaff : My dad didn't like to be around people shooting for 15 years after coming home from Vietnam. He didn't shoot a gun for another 25 years. He never had
28 futureualpilot : Fair enough, it was brought up in the first response. But you are guilty of engaging in the discussion rather than keeping the thread on topic. That
29 luv2fly : Questioning how others can be safe from guns is, in fact, bringing up gun control. No it is stating a fact that even guns or experienced gun owners ar
30 Post contains images kevi747 : I find interesting the difference in these 2 observations: A simple illumination of the "elephant in the room" by a European. VS: A complete (and inte
31 rfields5421 : It is not about gunfire on the streets. It is about how a person unable to correctly function when ANY loud noises occur suddenly. Thunder, car backf
32 Post contains links rfields5421 : Some more details are being reported in local media. 1) The shooting session was at a remote range in the lodge complex. Presumably the ex-Seal and th
33 DeltaMD90 : And? Do you not think we should work on multiple approaches to this problem, and not just strictly gun control? My point isn't to attack it from one
34 tugger : I think the problem is that you had someone that, while having good intentions and desiring to help fellow soldiers who are affected, had no real tra
35 FlyPNS1 : Which only goes to further my point about a culture where guns are viewed as a solution. As long as this is the dominant mindset, gun violence in thi
36 Flighty : Exactly. Absolutely not. Young men (non LEO or US mil active duty) with anger or thought-related mental issues should NEVER have access to firearms.
37 Dreadnought : He was a human being trying to help his friend. The mindset you are illustrating is exemplified by people who stand around a road accident watching s
38 pvjin : To me all these recent cases of US war veterans doing things like this clearly shows that enough isn't being done to help these people with their trau
39 Post contains images Dreadnought : Oh yeah, socialist countries like the USSR provided SO much better care for their veterans, especially after sending them into battle in human waves.
40 Mortyman : Don't understand this one ... What are you trying to say here ?
41 DeltaMD90 : It's getting a LOT better, look at Vietnam and look at now. Not where it should be but they are still studying PTSD (it only gained the attention it
42 pvjin : Well USSR had too much socialism while US has too much capitalism. Mix of them is the best way. Yeah I've heard that more Americans who fought in Vie
43 DeltaMD90 : Actually I think the Army lost more to suicides last year than combat... we're trying but really, it's not like there is a sure way to fix PTSD/depre
44 rfields5421 : Unless you've experienced the difference between the way vets were treated after Vietnam and in recent years - you cannot really understand how much
45 falstaff : Or sending them in to clean up radio active waste. You can't have them everywhere all the time, but we already have them at some of those places for
46 Flighty : I don't want to take away everyone's guns. Women aren't a major problem. Men over 40 are also fine. Those groups can handle their guns. It's men unde
47 FlyPNS1 : But what if your help is actually making things worse. When it comes to someone bleeding, it's not a huge leap in common sense to help them. However,
48 pvjin : Well at least according wiki yearly suicide rate of all population in the US in 2009 was 12.0 / 100.000 people. If we do some calculations from that
49 falstaff : There is a difference between security guards (armed or not) and sworn police officers. Just because a security guard carries a gun doesn't me they a
50 FlyPNS1 : True, but I'm not sure even trained police would handle this situation very well. Most cops simply don't train regularly for these types of mass shoo
51 Post contains links windy95 : This is how I have tried to help soldier's with PTSD. We as a family have donated the last two years to this cause. http://horsesforheroes.org/ Do not
52 soon7x7 : HHMMM...An experienced, knowledgable individual that knows the real poop about what goes on over in the mid east gets silenced...for good. Just happen
53 Post contains images tugger : When you get to an accident should you move a victim? HOw do you know what is best to save that persons life? And don't get me wrong, I know what you
54 pvjin : Nah you got it all wrong, North Koreans and their alien masters are responsible for this all, they are planning to take over the world. Signs are cle
55 falstaff : Be careful. There would be some people that would say "Lets lock up all the black men because they commit a disportionate amount of urban crime" " Le
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