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Ex-Navy Sniper, Another Military Vet Killed At Tex  
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Ironic to say the least. You can't make this stuff up.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/03/justic...sniper-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


You can cut the irony with a knife
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1679 times:

So? What's your point? RIP, but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them. In fact, with all the shooting that goes on at gun ranges, I'm surprised there aren't more.

Why don't we address the larger issue instead of just fluxes? The fact that the most common guns used in crime (I can provide a link later if you like, or just google it) are small pistols and I think a shotgun made it on the top 10 list... all of them holding about 8 or less rounds, cheap and crappy so you can throw them away afterwards. I'm not saying you can't tackle more than one issue at once, but in the long run, assault weapon kills and shootings at gun ranges are soooooo insignificant compared to the bulk of gun violence in this nation which I haven't seen addressed yet.

And no, I'm not just some crazy gun nut against every piece of legislation, read my posts on this site



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
So? What's your point? RIP, but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them. In fact, with all the shooting that goes on at gun ranges, I'm surprised there aren't more.

My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

The shooting range must have been a "gun-free zone".

Anyway, an armed security guard might have prevented this incident.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Thread starter):
Ironic to say the least. You can't make this stuff up.

Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

Without more details my expectation is this is similar to many car deaths. A tragic event that can't be avoided without creating bigger problems.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

Norwegians probably said something similar, no one in the world is safe from it. I don't recall anyone ever saying anyone was free from gun violence. Who did say that, may I ask?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Norwegians probably said something similar, no one in the world is safe from it. I don't recall anyone ever saying anyone was free from gun violence. Who did say that, may I ask?

I said it for one.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

   Thank you sir for the honest reply. I know your thoughts on this issue and you know mine, so props for not instantly jumping on the bandwagon.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
I said it for one.

Well my friend, no one is. No decorated military vet, no one in a country with very strong gun control. I'm all up for an honest discussion on the issue, I think you'd find that for a gun owner, I'm surprisingly close to many of yall on these issues. But this isn't an honest discussion, it's another tired thread that disproves something no one has said



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Well my friend, no one is. No decorated military vet, no one in a country with very strong gun control. I'm all up for an honest discussion on the issue, I think you'd find that for a gun owner, I'm surprisingly close to many of yall on these issues. But this isn't an honest discussion, it's another tired thread that disproves something no one has said

I just said it and I do in fact exisits. Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Quoting cmf (Reply 4):Yes there is a bit of irony in it but I don't think this is something that wouldn't have happened even if we had reasonable gun control. Possibly a background check may have done something but I doubt you can implement that for supervised shooting at a range.

Thank you sir for the honest reply. I know your thoughts on this issue and you know mine, so props for not instantly jumping on the bandwagon.

Since the decorated ex-Navy Seal acknowledged suffering from PTSD, as did the other vet killed and also the shooter - presumably in a strict gun control environment - none of them would have had guns. Somehow I doubt that would ever have happened.

From the local stories, it appears that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield had taken Eddie Routh to the gun range to help him work out some PTSD issues.

I doubt we will ever know what triggered the shooting. My guess is something was said which the shooter took wrong, and he snapped.

This is THE STORY in the Dallas area - almost eclipsing the Super Bowl - but it is really just a tragic incident.

Whether it was an ex-Seal or Joe civilian - the death are sad.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.

Again, I don't recall anyone (except you, if that is what you're saying) claiming that anyone is safe from gun violence. Did Dreadnought say that? fr8mech? L-188? flastaff? I don't recall them saying that. It's like saying drivers ed teachers can still die in car crashes or Olympic gymnasts can still break their necks... no one is saying they can't



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1585 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
Again, I don't recall anyone (except you, if that is what you're saying) claiming that anyone is safe from gun violence. Did Dreadnought say that? fr8mech? L-188? flastaff? I don't recall them saying that.

I didn't know that they were the experts on the subject.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1571 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 11):
I didn't know that they were the experts on the subject.

OK then what experts are saying that no one is safe from guns? I cannot recall anyone that said that. The whole point of the thread (as you said in reply 2) is that no one is safe from gun violence, which is like saying grass is green and the sky is blue, no one is debating that



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4786 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

I see the irony in the situation based on one of deceased's own words that he wrote about his career as a sniper, and the enemy.

However it is still a tragic incident that two men were killed by a man whom they trusted enough to go shooting with and were attempting to help based on current information.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 8):
Also this shooting would, for most people be proof that no one is safe from gun violence. Not even a trained navy seal sniper.

People that think they are safe from gun violence have never really contemplated what a gun was designed for. No one is 100% safe. However some are theoretically safer based on demographics and choices.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

He was still human. Bullets tend to not care about decorations or past accomplishments. Nice of you to take a thread about a deceased American hero who was trying to help someone and try to turn it into a gun control debate. Save it for another thread, will you?



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5770 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
Since the decorated ex-Navy Seal acknowledged suffering from PTSD, as did the other vet killed and also the shooter - presumably in a strict gun control environment - none of them would have had guns.

I think this is the most interesting element for this story and the debate on this point alone is huge.

Should someone diagnosed with PTSD (and any number of other psychological issues), by allowed to have a gun, own a gun, etc. It is an important question in the debate of what types of controls there should be on access to firearms, and what things will exclude someone from access or ownership.

This is in addition to but separate from the idea of ID checks for all gun sales etc.

So should someone clinically diagnosed with PTSD have free access to guns (Yes, I understand this incident occurred at a firing range which is a controlled situation)? By the way I do not know if there are differing levels of PTSD diagnosis though I do know that how people are affected by it do vary greatly.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
So should someone clinically diagnosed with PTSD have free access to guns (Yes, I understand this incident occurred at a firing range which is a controlled situation)? By the way I do not know if there are differing levels of PTSD diagnosis though I do know that how people are affected by it do vary greatly.

This is a really good and legitimate debate (as opposed to the shameful and/or confusing original debate in this thread) and I'll even go a step further and point out that a lot of these guys that have PTSD are the ones with the big guns fighting over in the ME. I haven't heard of too many incidents, if any at all, of PTSD coming out overseas, it seems to be really bad when someone is not in a war zone...

And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates, but in many gun control debates, the gun violence is the symptom of something greater. Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc. And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1532 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates, but in many gun control debates, the gun violence is the symptom of something greater. Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc. And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)

Is that a reason to stop trying. I guess irony does not translate well to the Internet. I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
Is that a reason to stop trying.

NO. When did I say that???? I even said "And I am not saying we can't have a gun control debate in addition to other debates." Look at my posts in other threads too. I was just, again, agreeing with your common sense point in reply 2

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.

I guess...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6920 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
From the local stories, it appears that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield had taken Eddie Routh to the gun range to help him work out some PTSD issues.

Seemed like a great plan from the start. Next time I suggest going to a grenade range.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

This appears to be more of a PTSD issue than a gun issue. Two vets trying to help a third with a problem.

User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6162 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1482 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I haven't heard of too many incidents, if any at all, of PTSD coming out overseas, it seems to be really bad when someone is not in a war zone...

PTSD was a huge deal back in the 1980s. In the 1980s it seemed like every mad gunman, bomber, ruthless criminal was a Vietnam vet. It was usually the first thing mentioned in the headline before the crime was even mentioned. The story line usually went something like ; "Vietnam Vet murders......" Vietnam Vet drove his car into...." Vietnam Vet beats....."


If you want to take away guns from every PTSD sufferer you better take away the guns from every single combat vet in this country, because sometimes symptoms take years to show up. Good luck with that!!! My grandfather had PTSD issues from his combat time in the Pacific in WWII and his father had PTSD (what it is now called) from his time in WWI. My dad has issues from Vietnam, which have gotten worse as he has become older. None of these people were/are unstable people who are going to murder anyone, but they have issues with PTSD none the less.





Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
I thought it ironic that a navy seal sniper met his demise being a victim of gun violence.

When I first heard it I assumed somebody killed him in retribution for what he did.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
but I don't recall anyone saying gun ranges are 100% safe and no one ever gets shot at them

There have been a fair number of suicides at gun ranges in the Detroit area recently. One shooting range by me had a couple of them recently. People go in, rent a gun, and shoot themselves on purpose. Oddly this only seems to happen at high profile ranges with gun rental.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 14):
He was still human. Bullets tend to not care about decorations or past accomplishments. Nice of you to take a thread about a deceased American hero who was trying to help someone and try to turn it into a gun control debate. Save it for another thread, will you?



I was pointing out the irony of the situation. I did not ever bring up control of any kind. So don't put words into my post.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8948 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
Should someone diagnosed with PTSD (and any number of other psychological issues), by allowed to have a gun, own a gun, etc.

From what I have read, the man's PTSD was related to the fear of gunfire. Such issues are frequently treated by taking the person to a range, where he can get used to loud noises being present that are controlled, and not indicative of impending death. His two friends took him to the range for exactly this purpose. Apparently he wigged out, and shot both his buddies in the back.

While I have no competence to judge whether PTSD is reason enough to blacklist a person from owning a firearm, even that might not have been enough in this case - as going to the range was part of standard therapy, and could have happened even with a borrowed gun.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1455 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Yes, we can try and set up checks, but violence will always continue if you don't tackle the big issues like PTSD, drugs, gangs, etc.

But that's kind of the irony in this situation, here you have a guy (Kyle) that obviously likes guns and believes in the power of guns trying to use guns to help someone with PTSD. Don't you think there's something a bit bizarre about taking someone with PTSD to a gun range to help them with their problems?? It seems kind of like taking someone fighting alcoholism on a brewery tour.

It points to me to a cultural problem where guns are viewed as a solution to problems rather than what they really are which is a nasty side effect of other problems. This is a line we've seen pushed heavily by the NRA. What was the NRA's solution to the shooting at Newtown? More guns (by way of security guards).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
And even with the strictest gun controls, little motivation to kill, and advanced military training, people aren't safe from gun violence (for the 10th time)

But clearly in some comparable parts of the world, people are safer comparative to the United States. Even if you strip out the drug/gang related violence, the U.S. still has a gun violence problem.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8948 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
But that's kind of the irony in this situation, here you have a guy (Kyle) that obviously likes guns and believes in the power of guns trying to use guns to help someone with PTSD. Don't you think there's something a bit bizarre about taking someone with PTSD to a gun range to help them with their problems?? It seems kind of like taking someone fighting alcoholism on a brewery tour.

How do you cure claustrophobia? Don't you put the person into smaller and smaller places and teach him how to deal with it?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
What was the NRA's solution to the shooting at Newtown? More guns (by way of security guards).

The Newtown Board of Education agreed it was a good idea.

http://news.yahoo.com/newtown-votes-...-elementary-schools-152326609.html



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
By the way I do not know if there are differing levels of PTSD diagnosis though I do know that how people are affected by it do vary greatly.

There are different levels, at least based upon how the VA is currently dealing with the issue.

My son receives a percentage of disability rating/ pay based in part on PTSD from Iraq in 2003 (also for a back injury sustained in combat). My ex-son-in-law receives a smaller disability rating and no pay, but medical treatment based on PTSD from his service in Kuwait in 1991 right after the shooting stopped.

The VA has asked my father on every visit if he is willing to undergo PTSD testing. Which he is not - turns 88 on the 14th.

We've talked about my dad's service in Europe in 1944 and 45, but there are things that are still too painful for him to discuss. Several of his peers in the small town where I grew-up came back from WWII "messed up" according to my father. Having known those men for the first 18 years of my life - I agree.

I've been through two incidents in my military service with mass casualties (200+) and I have no memory of details. I know that I have done very well in helping the wounded, and moving the dead, I've got an award to prove it. But I don't remember any details. I remember loading a C-141 full of transfer cases, but don't remember loading the cases and verifying the remains conditions.

There should be relative levels of PTSD in any rating - but they are also subjective.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
From what I have read, the man's PTSD was related to the fear of gunfire. Such issues are frequently treated by taking the person to a range, where he can get used to loud noises being present that are controlled, and not indicative of impending death.

I saw this with one of my team in Lebanon after 1983. He later came to work for me in Japan, and I got the Marines to work with him.

My son had this issue after 2003, and we had to work with him. He was an avid hunter before, and couldn't hunt for about four years. He still isn't happy around other people shooting.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6162 posts, RR: 29
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1441 times:
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Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 26):
He still isn't happy around other people shooting.

My dad didn't like to be around people shooting for 15 years after coming home from Vietnam. He didn't shoot a gun for another 25 years. He never had a problem with people, including me, owning and firing guns, he just chose not to be around them when they were being shot.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):What was the NRA's solution to the shooting at Newtown? More guns (by way of security guards).
The Newtown Board of Education agreed it was a good idea.

Funny how so many people don't like the idea of armed security, but they would probably complain if we took the armed men and women out of places like airports. Airports appear to be fairly well armed, amazing how mass shootings never happen inside the terminal ( before security) where anyone could walk in with a gun.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 22):
I was pointing out the irony of the situation. I did not ever bring up control of any kind. So don't put words into my post.


Fair enough, it was brought up in the first response. But you are guilty of engaging in the discussion rather than keeping the thread on topic. That being the murder of a former SEAL.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

Questioning how others can be safe from guns is, in fact, discussing gun control. Either way, my point was simply this thread is not the place for a gun control discussion.

[Edited 2013-02-04 15:22:46]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12150 posts, RR: 49
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

Questioning how others can be safe from guns is, in fact, bringing up gun control.

No it is stating a fact that even guns or experienced gun owners are not safe from gun violence. You might want to stop turning my post into something its not.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinekevi747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1058 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

I find interesting the difference in these 2 observations:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 9):
From the local stories, it appears that Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield had taken Eddie Routh to the gun range to help him work out some PTSD issues.

Seemed like a great plan from the start. Next time I suggest going to a grenade range.

A simple illumination of the "elephant in the room" by a European.

VS:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
This appears to be more of a PTSD issue than a gun issue. Two vets trying to help a third with a problem.

A complete (and intentional?) miscomprehension of the event by an American.

Come on, we're better than this...right?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
From what I have read, the man's PTSD was related to the fear of gunfire. Such issues are frequently treated by taking the person to a range, where he can get used to loud noises being present that are controlled, and not indicative of impending death.

Is it also routine to allow the affected person to be COCKED AND LOADED while undergoing the re-acclimation to gunfire that has driven them mad? And how telling is it that its considered so routine to hear gunfire in the streets of America that being startled by it is considered......., wait for it.....abnormal?!? The sound of gunfire is SUPPOSED TO INDUCE FEAR!!! Jesus Christ!   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
How do you cure claustrophobia? Don't you put the person into smaller and smaller places and teach him how to deal with it?

Claustrophobia is irrational. Being in an elevator or airplane won't kill you 99.99999999999 percent of the time. But (unless you're at a track meet) gunfire signals danger.....and its GOOD to be alarmed when hearing it. (In fact, I would posit that being UNAFRAID of gunfire is indicative of Darwinian weakness.)

Full disclosure: I own 2 guns (1 shotgun, and 1 pistol). And I think citizens should be able to own handguns, shotguns, and hunting rifles. But the "gun culture" of this country has gotten so out of hand, and has been taken to such ridiculous and psychotic extremes, that actual common sense no longer applies.

And I say this with no sense of self-satisfaction or smugness. Honestly. I LOVE this country. I love the people here, and especially our military and veterans. This story makes me physically sick. (As did Sandy Hook, and the bus driver last week, etc, etc) Should we not learn something from their deaths?



"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Quoting kevi747 (Reply 30):
And how telling is it that its considered so routine to hear gunfire in the streets of America that being startled by it is considered......., wait for it.....abnormal?!? The

It is not about gunfire on the streets.

It is about how a person unable to correctly function when ANY loud noises occur suddenly. Thunder, car backfires, dishes dropped in a restaurant, even the sound of some shoes hitting the pavement can all sound like gunfire to someone tramautized and in a fragile condition. Fireworks can leave such a person a shaking near catatonic wreck.

When I came back from Lebanon in 1983, I was hypersensitive to any sudden unexpected loud noise for months. Some of those older men in the town where I grew up are still that way - now in the late 80s and early 90s.

For example - my son was in a room in Iraq when someone entered the room and shot one of his squad. He had his back to the door and did not see the shooter enter, though someone else did. For at least two years after coming back, he was unable to sit anywhere his back was not against a solid wall. He could not even sit at a campground with us.

Quoting kevi747 (Reply 30):
fact, I would posit that being UNAFRAID of gunfire is indicative of Darwinian weakness.

I would disagree.

On the morning of Nov 3, 2012, I was camping with my wife, my son, his wife and his daughter - at a Corps of Engineers campground in south central Texas.

We were awakened at dawn by the sound of gunfire. We counted at least fifty rounds fired in the first two or three minutes. We could identify rifle and shotgun fire.

It was the first day of deer and duck season - both of which are in abundance just outside the COE property lines.

Yes, it took us a couple seconds to identify the weapons being used, that they were too far away to be immediate danger to us, and maybe 20 seconds of concern before we realized it was likely the start of hunting season.

(The fact that someone will fire 12 rapid fire shots in less than ten seconds with a rifle at a deer is a completely differen issue. So many damn city slickers never really learned how to hunt, even in Texas.)

I am unafraid of most gunfire, though I can be startled if I am not expecting gunfire. And certain types terrify me. But I know how to recognize the difference.

i.e. Hunting and range gunfire are readily identifiable.

I can also easily identify the complete idiots shooting pistols into the air on New Years and such. Those scare me!!!

Relearning familarity with gunfire. What is really gunfire, and what is just loud noises. Relearning to recognize types of gunfire. Those are the goals of programs such as these vets were trying to implement.



Perhaps the debate should be over people who have lived through traumatic experiences and learned to live a normal life after should be prohibited from trying to help other people who have had near the same experiences?


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1316 times:

Some more details are being reported in local media.

1) The shooting session was at a remote range in the lodge complex. Presumably the ex-Seal and the other vet wanted the PTSD sufferer out of hearing of any other gun range activity. That is why the men were shot and not discovered for two or three hours.

2) When the former Marine arrived at his sister's house after fleeing the shooting scene - he was ask whose truck he was driving. The police affidavit says that he told his sister that he "traded his soul for a new truck".

3) The former Marine was picked up about four months ago at his parents home by local police. His mother called police because he was threatening himself and his family. He was upset because his father planned to sell his guns. He also appeared intoxicated. He was picked up by police and transported to a local psychiatric evaluation facility.

Most of this is a summary of the WFAA TV 10 pm news cast - http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Famil...-suffered-from-PTSD-189753571.html


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1292 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
But clearly in some comparable parts of the world, people are safer comparative to the United States. Even if you strip out the drug/gang related violence, the U.S. still has a gun violence problem.

And? Do you not think we should work on multiple approaches to this problem, and not just strictly gun control? My point isn't to attack it from one angle, but rather, multiple angles



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5770 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1258 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
Relearning familarity with gunfire. What is really gunfire, and what is just loud noises. Relearning to recognize types of gunfire. Those are the goals of programs such as these vets were trying to implement.

Perhaps the debate should be over people who have lived through traumatic experiences and learned to live a normal life after should be prohibited from trying to help other people who have had near the same experiences?

I think the problem is that you had someone that, while having good intentions and desiring to help fellow soldiers who are affected, had no real training nor followed a professional method to addressing the issues he was trying to address in those affected by PTSD. Chris Kyle meant well, but he did not have in place safety elements to protect not just himself, but those he was trying to help. I am not discounting what he believed his real life experiences taught him, but he did not go that extra step to really learn what to do, what could happen, how his desired results might be best achieved. He tried to just "guy it out", "soldier to soldier", "man to man" but that is not a very good way to attack the problem, to achieve results he was trying to achieve. It was a nice idea, god intent but it didn't work and now three (and more) lives are ruined.

I do not mean to speak ill of the dead, and I am not, I am simply pointing out what was shown to be true.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):

The Newtown Board of Education agreed it was a good idea.

Which only goes to further my point about a culture where guns are viewed as a solution. As long as this is the dominant mindset, gun violence in this country will always be much higher than it should be.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
My point isn't to attack it from one angle, but rather, multiple angles

But I haven't heard that many viable angles to attacking the problem. The NRA side just wants more guns. Trying to restrict gun access to the mentally ill will be nearly impossible. Since guns are so easily and cheaply available

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
How do you cure claustrophobia? Don't you put the person into smaller and smaller places and teach him how to deal with it?

Was Kyle qualified to do this kind of training with someone with PTSD? Or did he just think that he knew guns and he knew combat, so therefore he could "treat" the problem? I'm sure he had good intentions and thought he was doing right, but that alone isn't qualification.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 27):
Airports appear to be fairly well armed, amazing how mass shootings never happen inside the terminal ( before security) where anyone could walk in with a gun.

But is it really practical to place armed guards in every mall, school, hospital, etc. And as we've noted before, mass shootings have happened in places where there were armed guards/citizens....Columbine (on-campus armed officer), the Gabbie Giffords shooting (security guards, plus private citizens) and even Virginia Tech had armed police on campus (though not in the specific buildings where the shootings occurred).


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8760 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 2):
My point was a Decorated Navy Seal Sniper is not even safe from gun violence, how can the rest of us hope to be.

Exactly.

Quoting tugger (Reply 15):
Should someone diagnosed with PTSD (and any number of other psychological issues), by allowed to have a gun, own a gun, etc.

Absolutely not. Young men (non LEO or US mil active duty) with anger or thought-related mental issues should NEVER have access to firearms. That is the. Entire. Problem.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8948 posts, RR: 24
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1190 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
Fireworks can leave such a person a shaking near catatonic wreck.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
Was Kyle qualified to do this kind of training with someone with PTSD?

He was a human being trying to help his friend. The mindset you are illustrating is exemplified by people who stand around a road accident watching somebody bleed to death, taking video on their phones rather than trying to help "because they are not qualified" or afraid they might get sued. What every happened to trying to help simply because it's the right thing to try to do?

In fact it might be possible that the info below has some relevance.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
3) The former Marine was picked up about four months ago at his parents home by local police. His mother called police because he was threatening himself and his family. He was upset because his father planned to sell his guns. He also appeared intoxicated. He was picked up by police and transported to a local psychiatric evaluation facility.

The guy did in fact get put in front of a professional (maybe more than one). Could it be that his friends were asked by his shrinks to help him in this fashion? I have no idea if this happened, but clearly it was known that he has some issues, and you don't go to a range like this on a whim.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

To me all these recent cases of US war veterans doing things like this clearly shows that enough isn't being done to help these people with their traumas and getting back into society and normal life.

I wonder if all these people really knew what they were going to see and experience when they chose to join US war machine and start fighting for old rich greedy men called politicians.

It's really weird how US war veterans in general are regarded as heroes and greatly respected but then they don't even get proper care after they are back in the US. I guess US government stops caring about these people after they have retired from the military as proper treatment would cost a lot of money. What a sad sight American society is, so much greed and little solidarity when it comes to the money. I'm glad I live here in Europe where healthy mix of socialism keeps things a bit more like they are supposed to be.

[Edited 2013-02-05 08:04:20]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8948 posts, RR: 24
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1177 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
I'm glad I live here in Europe where healthy mix of socialism keeps things a bit more like they are supposed to be.

Oh yeah, socialist countries like the USSR provided SO much better care for their veterans, especially after sending them into battle in human waves...  

Finland has been fortunate not to be caught up in a war these past 60 years or so. If you had a lot of veterans around you would be acting so smug.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 4087 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1174 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Norwegians probably said something similar, no one in the world is safe from it

Don't understand this one ... What are you trying to say here ?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1171 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
It's really weird how US war veterans in general are regarded as heroes and greatly respected but then they don't even get proper care after they are back in the US. I guess US government stops caring about these people after they have retired from the military as proper treatment would cost a lot of money. What a sad sight American society is, so much greed and little solidarity when it comes to the money. I'm glad I live here in Europe where healthy mix of socialism keeps things a bit more like they are supposed to be.

It's getting a LOT better, look at Vietnam and look at now. Not where it should be but they are still studying PTSD (it only gained the attention it should have only a few years ago.)

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 40):
Don't understand this one ... What are you trying to say here ?

The recent mass shootings you had (RIP.) Basically I was trying to understand where OP was going with this common sense notion that no one is safe from gun violence and agreed, Navy SEALs are not immune, nor were people in a country with strict gun control. (And that doesn't mean I don't think we should take steps to fix things, etc)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 39):
Oh yeah, socialist countries like the USSR provided SO much better care for their veterans, especially after sending them into battle in human waves...  

Well USSR had too much socialism while US has too much capitalism. Mix of them is the best way.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
It's getting a LOT better, look at Vietnam and look at now. Not where it should be but they are still studying PTSD (it only gained the attention it should have only a few years ago.)

Yeah I've heard that more Americans who fought in Vietnam have killed themselves than actually died in the war, I wonder if that's true? If it is that's truly disturbing.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1153 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 42):
Yeah I've heard that more Americans who fought in Vietnam have killed themselves than actually died in the war, I wonder if that's true? If it is that's truly disturbing.

Actually I think the Army lost more to suicides last year than combat... we're trying but really, it's not like there is a sure way to fix PTSD/depression/suicide by just doing ________ or dumping money into a program (unless you stopped the wars, but that's a different thread.) Point is, they're trying, maybe not as much as they should but it's a far cry from Vietnam, those vets got screwed



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
US war veterans in general are regarded as heroes and greatly respected

Unless you've experienced the difference between the way vets were treated after Vietnam and in recent years - you cannot really understand how much BETTER it is today.

Yes, the system is no where new perfect. It isn't even truly competent. But it is improving all the time.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 38):
I guess US government stops caring about these people after they have retired from the military as proper treatment would cost a lot of money.

No the US government doesn't stop caring. The cost for veterans health care is a huge part of the budget, and will grow every year.

But the truth is that mental issues are always the hardest to treat, and the hardest part of treatment is admitting you have a problem and becoming willing to work on getting better.

Unfortunately many vets can never do that.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6162 posts, RR: 29
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1123 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 39):
Oh yeah, socialist countries like the USSR provided SO much better care for their veterans, especially after sending them into battle in human waves...

Or sending them in to clean up radio active waste.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 35):
But is it really practical to place armed guards in every mall, school, hospital

You can't have them everywhere all the time, but we already have them at some of those places for a reason. Some schools have police officers, my high school had two. We had 2800 students in my school. That is bigger than some towns. I can't think of a mall in the Detroit area without armed security, many of which are augmented by sworn police officers.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
My point isn't to attack it from one angle, but rather, multiple angles

Too many people see a problem and think it only has one correct answer, but in reality there a lot of correct answers. Some people hate guns and want to take everyone's guns away so this is a great excuse. Others want to start committing people to mental hospitals, because they think they are unstable and want them off the streets so they use this as an excuse. It is kinds of like when 9-11 happened, everyone wanted to put their finger on one thing and we all know there were lots of fingers to be pointed in a lot of directions.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
Quoting kevi747 (Reply 30):And how telling is it that its considered so routine to hear gunfire in the streets of America that being startled by it is considered......., wait for it.....abnormal?!? The
It is not about gunfire on the streets.

I have never heard gunfire in the streets EVER!!!! If you live in the ghetto surrounded, by thugs and crooks then yes you might just hear that kind of thing. It is common issue in the rougher parts of town. In most places you will not hear any shooting. If you are out in the country you will hear it from time to time, especially during deer, duck, turkey, rabbit, etc season.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
When I came back from Lebanon in 1983, I was hypersensitive to any sudden unexpected loud noise for months.

My dad is hypersensitive to touch when it comes to waking him up. If my dad is sleeping and you touch him to wake up he freaks out, it has gotten worse since he has gotten older. When you wake him up like that it is like you put him back in a war zone. My grandfather, who saw action in the Pacific during WWII, was just like that too.

Quoting kevi747 (Reply 30):
Next time I suggest going to a grenade range.
A simple illumination of the "elephant in the room" by a European.

You can't go to a grenade range, unless you are in the armed forces. The only ones I ever heard of in the USA are on military bases.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 42):
Yeah I've heard that more Americans who fought in Vietnam have killed themselves than actually died in the war, I wonder if that's true? If it is that's truly disturbing.

Could be, 58,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam. Almost 2.6 million Americans served in Vietnam (actually on the ground, inside the country). How many of them killed themselves as a result of the war? who really knows. How many killed themselves because their wife left them, their business failed, diagnosed with a terrible disease, etc? Just because a combat vet kills themselves doesn't mean it is because of combat. Lots of people who never served their country kill themselves for all kinds of reasons so don't think vets don't have some of the same problems as everyone else. How many Vietnam vets died from car wrecks, work accidents, cancer, heart disease, you name it? Right now Vietnam vets are dying at a higher rate than WWII vets, because so many of the WWII guys are already dead and the Vietnam guys are getting old. My dad is 65 and he served in Vietnam in 1971-72. There are a lot of guys older than him. My dad always says "when I came home from Vietnam the WWI guys were old, the WWII guys were thinking about retirement and we were kids. Now the WWI guys are gone, the WWII guys are going, and we are retired" "Gettin' old is a bitch".



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8760 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1115 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
Some people hate guns and want to take everyone's guns away so this is a great excuse. Others want to start committing people to mental hospitals, because they think they are unstable and want them off the streets so they use this as an excuse.

I don't want to take away everyone's guns.

Women aren't a major problem. Men over 40 are also fine. Those groups can handle their guns.

It's men under 40 who aren't psychologically equipped to be safe. Men that age are wired to take risks and pursue unlikely goals. It's great. Just don't let them carry guns. They can't handle it. IMO


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
What every happened to trying to help simply because it's the right thing to try to do?

But what if your help is actually making things worse. When it comes to someone bleeding, it's not a huge leap in common sense to help them. However, it's a much different leap to take someone with PTSD to a gun range.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
You can't have them everywhere all the time, but we already have them at some of those places for a reason.

But as we've seen, that doesn't seem to be working too well. As mentioned before, many of the mass shootings have occurred in places that had security guards....almost all of whom proved largely useless.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1031 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 45):
. How many of them killed themselves as a result of the war? who really knows. How many killed themselves because their wife left them, their business failed, diagnosed with a terrible disease, etc?

Well at least according wiki yearly suicide rate of all population in the US in 2009 was 12.0 / 100.000 people.

If we do some calculations from that suicide rate of US Vietnam war vets is still almost 4 times higher than general US population today.

I guess Vietnam with all its thick rainforests perfect for the enemy to hide might have been even more stressful area to fight than Iraq and Afghanistan for example and in the end whole war was totally useless and did no good, maybe also that could have made some of these vets feel bad. And probably the respect and help back in the US towards these people wasn't as high as it is nowadays.

In any case I hope all these vets with mental problems would get proper treatment and find peace again.

[Edited 2013-02-05 21:56:36]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6162 posts, RR: 29
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 999 times:
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Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 47):
many of the mass shootings have occurred in places that had security guard

There is a difference between security guards (armed or not) and sworn police officers. Just because a security guard carries a gun doesn't me they are prepared to use it and have top notch training on how to use it and defend themselves and others. Police officers have that kind of training and know what kind of thing they are getting into when they take the job.

Ever seen the movie "Article 99" from around 1990? There is a great scene in that movie where the hospital administrator tells a security guard to disarm a man, who has an Uzi. The security guard says "not for $4.25 an hour". I know that is fiction, but it sums up the difference right there.

Last decade the Michigan Secretary of State office (where we get drivers licenses, license plates, mechanic tests, etc) near my house had a security guard who carried a gun. This frail looking man, with an ancient 38 special, didn't look like a threat to anyone and didn't look like he could defend anything (I may have been wrong, looks can be deceiving).

Being a Security guard requires little education and little training so you aren't going to get top shelf people doing that job. Think what you want about police officers, but they go through an awful lot of training and job specific education to get where they are.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 957 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 49):
Think what you want about police officers, but they go through an awful lot of training and job specific education to get where they are.

True, but I'm not sure even trained police would handle this situation very well. Most cops simply don't train regularly for these types of mass shooting situations.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2750 posts, RR: 8
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 894 times:

This is how I have tried to help soldier's with PTSD. We as a family have donated the last two years to this cause.

Quote:
Horses For Heroes - New Mexico, Inc. is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation. Cowboy Up! is a unique horsemanship, wellness and skill-set restructuring program based in Santa Fe, NM free to Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan
Veterans and active military (both men and women) who have sustained physical injuries or combat trauma (PTSD) during their time serving our country. From day one Veterans are hands on with our horses beginning with groundwork and progressing to riding, as well as participating in other aspects of ranch life, including working cattle and more importantly experiencing the camaraderie with cowboys who are Veterans themselves.
http://horsesforheroes.org/

Do not use this tragedy for the gun debate but for what we need to do for these men and woman.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 882 times:

HHMMM...An experienced, knowledgable individual that knows the real poop about what goes on over in the mid east gets silenced...for good. Just happened to be a proponent of the 2nd ammendment. And why shouldn't he, he is a patriot. Coincidence?...think not...Jay Carney...what say you?...nothing I bet.

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5770 posts, RR: 10
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 862 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
He was a human being trying to help his friend. The mindset you are illustrating is exemplified by people who stand around a road accident watching somebody bleed to death, taking video on their phones rather than trying to help "because they are not qualified" or afraid they might get sued. What every happened to trying to help simply because it's the right thing to try to do?

In fact it might be possible that the info below has some relevance.

When you get to an accident should you move a victim? HOw do you know what is best to save that persons life? And don't get me wrong, I know what you are saying, I get frustrated by the same "standing around" that occurs. But if you just rush into a fire to save people without really thinking things through you often end up endangering the firefighters even more when they have to rescue two people instead of just one. There has to be thought and intelligence that goes into doing things to help others.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
The guy did in fact get put in front of a professional (maybe more than one). Could it be that his friends were asked by his shrinks to help him in this fashion? I have no idea if this happened, but clearly it was known that he has some issues, and you don't go to a range like this on a whim.

I would be curious if that actually happened, generally a professional psych--whatever person would only recommend "approved" or other "professional" options for treatment and care. And that is the sad part, I think Chris Kyle could have done more (I have not heard anything to indicate that he was attending school or otherwise training to be come a better "care" person) to really help those that suffer PTSD. He had real experience and a real desire to help people. I think if he had treated his "process" professionally (even if it was to be "just hangin' out with the guys and being normal") I think he would be alive today and helping more people.

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 52):
HHMMM...An experienced, knowledgable individual that knows the real poop about what goes on over in the mid east gets silenced...for good. Just happened to be a proponent of the 2nd ammendment. And why shouldn't he, he is a patriot. Coincidence?...think not...Jay Carney...what say you?...nothing I bet.

Lemme get my tinfoil....  

I think the truth is that, while he was well meaning Chris Kyle did not actually know well enough what he was doing to plan out proper safety precautions and to properly be able to guide those he was trying to help through the process. I think he thought "he was all that" because he was an excellent soldier, but he should have gotten serious and put the same effort into learning how to help people as was put into him to learn how to kill people. If he had done that he would likely be alive today and helping a lot of damaged warriors.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 848 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 52):
HHMMM...An experienced, knowledgable individual that knows the real poop about what goes on over in the mid east gets silenced...for good. Just happened to be a proponent of the 2nd ammendment. And why shouldn't he, he is a patriot. Coincidence?...think not...Jay Carney...what say you?...nothing I bet.

Nah you got it all wrong, North Koreans and their alien masters are responsible for this all, they are planning to take over the world.

Signs are clear, you should now go and build an underground bunker, food, adequate water supplies and hide there for next 5 years. Do not take your computer with you, I heard there are things called "computer viruses" than can get you and increase your insanity level severely.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6162 posts, RR: 29
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 828 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):
It's men under 40 who aren't psychologically equipped to be safe

Be careful. There would be some people that would say "Lets lock up all the black men because they commit a disportionate amount of urban crime" " Lets toss all the Mexicans out because most of the illegals aliens are Mexican" "a man that wants to be a Catholic Priest must be a pervert". Saying men under 40 can't be trusted is saying the same thing.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 50):
Most cops simply don't train regularly for these types of mass shooting situations.

I think more and more are. The school I work at trains for that sort of thing a couple of times a year and the local police are involved too.

Quoting tugger (Reply 53):
When you get to an accident should you move a victim?

Depends on the situation. If the victim is in a situation that is about to get worse than yes you move them. A couple of months back I was first on the scene of an overturned car, in Detroit. The woman was trapped, but was awake and not outwardly bleeding. I called EMS and waited. If the car was burning I would have had to pull her out or it would have been certain death. Since the situation was not getting worse not moving the victim was the correct action.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
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