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Skeleton Of Richard III Found  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

Apparently the skeleton of King Richard III, who was killed at the Battle of Bosworth, has been found. The skeleton was discovered in a Leicester car park archaeological excavation. DNA evidence seems to have positively identified the remains as being those of the King.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882

Quite a significant find. I have to say that when they first found the remains, I thought it unlikely that confirmation of identity would follow.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
I have to say that when they first found the remains, I thought it unlikely that confirmation of identity would follow.

Me too.


This is a massively significant find, however. The nature of his injures also seems to suggest that the popular story of his death - knocked from his horse and killed, on foot, in the midst of the battle - is true, followed by his body being stripped, paraded and abused...

Wonder if they'll exhume the bodies of the Princes in the Tower now that there's renewed interest in this area, to see if it is actually them.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 1):
Wonder if they'll exhume the bodies of the Princes in the Tower now that there's renewed interest in this area, to see if it is actually them.

They had reliable DNA evidence for Richard III -- I wonder if there's a descendant for the princes. or would the same DNA source work with them too.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6054 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

Sounds like they got lucky on the DNA side of things, apparently that line is close to dying out! I guess they can now start the fight over where the remains will be reburied. Apparently Leicester was the least likely place Richard III would've wanted to be buried, having supposedly preferred York instead.

I wonder if we could borrow their "King-finding" luck, as we're still trying to locate Harald Bluetooth in Roskilde. He's supposed to be buried in a pillar in Roskilde Cathedral, but there aren't any bones there. And to make matters worse, there's been three new churches built on the site of the church he was originally buried in, so they could be anywhere


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

They almost didn't find him. The woman who did all the legwork to find a possible burial site is a screenwriter not an archeologist. They almost ran out of money before the dig started. Interesting find, although not nearly as important as the dig at Sutton Hoo.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 3):
I guess they can now start the fight over where the remains will be reburied. Apparently Leicester was the least likely place Richard III would've wanted to be buried, having supposedly preferred York instead.

The city of Leicester has bought a building next to the parking lot to serve as a visitor center and museum. I think they at least would like his remains to stay there.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):

The city of Leicester has bought a building next to the parking lot to serve as a visitor center and museum. I think they at least would like his remains to stay there.

I believe the plan is to have the remains interred in the Cathedral.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
The skeleton was discovered in ... car park

Did Richard III die from a mob hit? Perhaps Jimmy Hoffa's remains might be in the same lot.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I believe the plan is to have the remains interred in the Cathedral.

According to legend wasn't Richard III originally buried in a monastery that was destroyed when Henry VIII dissolved all the abbeys and other churches?

Interesting how Tudor religious politics ended up effecting how long it took to find his body.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1590 times:

Must admit that I'm seldom 'transfixed' by the odd news event any more.  

But this is genuinely 'special.' Having both studied and taught history in my time, I can't readily recall any sort of previous historical 'scoop' on anything like this scale. Heartiest congratulations to the people who planned it, somehow managed to finance it, and carried it through.

This video (which shows some actual shots of the excavations, the skull, and some of the bones) only seems to have been published in Australia so far. Hope it's of interest:-

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci...of-richard-iii-20130205-2dv24.html

[Edited 2013-02-05 04:28:35]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12938 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

As a musician friend who is a Steely Dan fan said, "I guess we haven't seen the last of King Richard!".  


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

I agree that it is a very significant find. However, I am a little disappointed that the television series "Time Team" was not involved (well, to the best of my knowledge). I think Tony Robinson would have recognised the irony!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olrJwB0XdnM


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12938 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

One of my FB friends sent along the idea that we should follow England's lead and bury our dead Presidents under car parks / parking lots! 


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesteffenbn From Denmark, joined Apr 2010, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1440 times:

Sorry, but I have only one thing to say...



A330, A319, 737,738,752,763,763ER,764ER,777-200LR
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
As a musician friend who is a Steely Dan fan said, "I guess we haven't seen the last of King Richard!".  

I think that was Richard the Lionheart!



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3367 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 12):

I second this statement. Excellent find in terms of science...but that's about it.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8950 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 6):
Did Richard III die from a mob hit?

No, he was accidentally beheaded by Edmund Blackadder.



Edmund: How was your battle?

Ghost: Fine. Somebody cut my head off at one point, but otherwise everything went swimmingly.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1289 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
No, he was accidentally beheaded by Edmund Blackadder.

Beheaded? No, it's just a flesh wound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RZ-hYPAMFQ



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7719 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

Quoting steffenbn (Reply 12):
Sorry, but I have only one thing to say...

Only one thing I can say in return - are you a father yet?   

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 14):
Excellent find in terms of science...but that's about it.

It's not just about science. It also is about history, not least the fact that the skeleton substantiates existing reports about the manner of the King's death.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Leicester car park archaeological excavation

Absolutely fascinating. Such a small and wondrous world and the greatest surprises are sometimes found in the least likely places.


User currently offlineDevilfish From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4952 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 18):
Such a small and wondrous world and the greatest surprises are sometimes found in the least likely places.

Quite fitting perhaps...given the immortal "my Kingdom for a horse" line. Ironically, he couldn't have imagined the sort of steeds (chariots?) that would stand over his final resting place.

Shades of the movie Just Visiting.  



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1176 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

I believe the plan is to have the remains interred in the Cathedral.

I think Leicester is trying to get the leg up on York. They opened an exhibition about Richard III at the guildhall yesterday. The BBC reported that his decedents are claiming they want him buried there because, "York and the county of Yorkshire was, and remains, the physical and spiritual home of King Richard III".

  

I have to say, 16 generations from now my descendants really shouldn't be able to say where my body should interned.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 20):
I have to say, 16 generations from now my descendants really shouldn't be able to say where my body should interned.

I'd say you might want to worry more about not dying the way Richard did...!   


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 1):
Wonder if they'll exhume the bodies of the Princes in the Tower

Apparently there have been previous requests to disinter the Princes but the Dean of Westminster Abbey and the Queen have opposed this. Partly it was out of concern for setting a precedent - they argued that you allow one exhumation to satisfy historical curiosity then you "open the flood-gates" for further requests.

There was a further issue: what if the bones were shown not to be those of the Princes? Would you simply shove them back into the vault or bury them somewhere else?

Either way, it was claimed that even if the bones were those of the Princes, as the exact date of their deaths could not be established it could not be shown whether they were murdered under orders from Richard III or Henry VII. Both may have had a motive.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1106 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I believe the plan is to have the remains interred in the Cathedral.

There's a bit of hoo-haa going on about that - apart from the one between Leicester and York.

Since he was a pre-Roformation monarch, some Catholics want him buried in a Catholic church:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...-richard-iii-in-a-catholic-church/

"Bury Richard III In A Catholic Church Dammit

I mean, he was one, wasn’t he? The Reformation had not yet taken place. He’s already suffered various indignities – Shakespeare’s Tudor propaganda, stigmatized for scoliosis, then having his skull split open with an ax. He now has to be buried in a church he didn’t belong to? Maybe the parking lot wasn’t so bad, after all."


There was a similar debate about the remains (the skeletons) recovered from the Tudor warship, the Mary Rose - they lived and died as Catholics - although Henry VIII was never a Protestant, but rather an English Pope.

In the great scheme of things I don't think it matters, but it is important to some and it might be a nice act of reconciliation.

Then again, Edward the Confessor is buried at Westminster Abbey - C of E - which he wasn't.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 983 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 22):
Either way, it was claimed that even if the bones were those of the Princes, as the exact date of their deaths could not be established it could not be shown whether they were murdered under orders from Richard III or Henry VII. Both may have had a motive.

I just finished reading a book on Richard III -- he wasn't quite the monster that Shakespeare made him out to be. At the very least he was no more heinous than the rest of those medieval monarchs. Apparently historians are still divided on whether it was Richard or Henry who ordered the princes snuffed -- lots of motive and evidence for both. Very few people died peacefully in those days.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
25 venus6971 : I think back then at the misery of what was called life and short one would have been more merciful than a long one. I imagine back then over 40 was
26 gemuser : Neither was Westminster when he was buried! Gemuser
27 mariner : Indeed. The point being that they didn't move him. mariner
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