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GM Introduces First Diesel Car In USA In 26 Years  
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2524 times:

At the 2013 Chicago Auto Show, General Motors unveiled the newest variant of its Chevrolet compact sedan, the 2014 Cruze Clean Turbo Diesel. This car, which will be available in both the United States and Canada, uses a 148-horsepower turbocharged 2.0-liter diesel 4-cylinder engine and a 6-speed automatic transmission. The company is projecting 42 mpg on the highway (the same EPA rating as the current TDI Jetta) and GM claims that the car will offer best-in-class driving range.

2014 Chevy Cruze Diesel Sedan


The engine is based on the diesel unit Chevrolet currently sells in European-market Cruzes - where about 40 percent of buyers choose the diesel version. According to Chevy, the Cruze's engine has been modified to suit North American driving conditions and to adhere to America’s stricter diesel emissions standards.

Cruze will be the first diesel car offered by General Motors since Chevy sold a diesel version of the Chevette in 1986. The diesel Cruze is expected to be available for purchase in American Chevy dealerships by late spring 2013.

Chevy says the car’s chief competitor in the United States is Volkswagen’s Jetta TDI. Unlike the VW, though, the Cruze’s diesel engine uses urea injection to help control its emissions. This system uses a 4.5-gallon tank of solution, which should be good for 10,000 miles of driving before requiring a refill.

Furthermore, keep in mind that Ford is rumored to be ready to offer a diesel engine in their U,S, Focus model (perhaps the 2.0 liter Duratorq motor sold in European Focus "Econetic" diesel models) and Fiat/Chrysler is also rumored to be offering a diesel powerplant in their new Dart sedan for the 2014 model year - Fiat has a couple of diesel versions of the Alfa Romeo Giulietta (on which the Dart is based) on sale in Europe.

Items specific to the diesel-powered Cruze include additional sound-deadening material behind the dashboard and under the hood. Pricing should start at $26,695 according to GM, which includes the destination charge and a 2-year maintenance plan... which is about the same price of a Jetta TDI with the DSG automatic transmission.

I think that diesel powered cars are poised to make a BIG comeback here in the United States.

Source; http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...iesel-car-since-1986#axzz2KFwv2EMm

[Edited 2013-02-07 15:19:39]

[Edited 2013-02-07 15:26:56]

[Edited 2013-02-07 15:37:42]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Can't be worse than GM's last attempt at diesel cars in America.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

The success will probably based on the price of fuel in the various states. Fuel needs to be less expensive than petrol of the savings will shrink too far.

My personal preference is natural gas (switchable to petrol). Ive seen that for years in taxis in Sydney & Melbourne. Worked well in the full sized cars, would help car makers meet emission standards and can be less expensive. We also have a huge supply in the ground.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

I didn't know that car was sold here, but apparently it is. I see two diesel offerings on the French website :

•1.7 VCDi 131ch Start & Stop
•2.0 VCDi 163ch Start & Stop

So I guess it's the second one, detuned/tuned to lower emissions. There is no urea system here.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more. And the fuel costs more. Not what you'd call progress.

It's a cool piece of technology.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more. And the fuel costs more. Not what you'd call progress.

You do get more performance. Well, more accurately, you get less non-performance anyway. BMW's 335d wasn't great on fuel either, but was pretty good from a driving standpoint.

There isn't a ton of downside for GM here, since the car is already sold in Europe.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
Ive seen that for years in taxis in Sydney & Melbourne. Worked well in the full sized cars, would help car makers meet emission standards and can be less expensive. We also have a huge supply in the ground.

You'd have to build a ton of infrastructure to deliver it and the tanks take up quite a bit of space, although they do probably weigh less than batteries.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Natural gas cars are very common in Italy. And LPG is also available.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more. And the fuel costs more. Not what you'd call progress.

I'm sure city mileage will be better for the diesel.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33035 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more.

For whatever reason, though, GM decided to make the car very well-equipped. It comes with a lot of expensive options like leather, alloy wheels and auto transmission standard, that are optional on lesser models. Those three things alone are probably $2-3k in options. So compared to a compartively equipped model, the difference isn't as large.

There is also this fact: the EPA fuel testing is gas engined-centric; it sucks for testing diesel fuel mileage. The reality is that diesel cars get 15 to 25% better fuel results than the EPA estimates. The Cruze diesel will be no different. Like the Jetta and Golf, real world mileage will probably be 50-55MPG.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
And the fuel costs more.

Diesel and gas prices aren't in constant propotion. Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.

[Edited 2013-02-07 19:06:26]


a.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Like the Jetta and Golf, real world mileage will probably be 50-55MPG.

Source for this "real-world" number?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Diesel and gas prices aren't in constant propotion. Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.

That has not been the case for many years now. It is generally 10-20% more in my area. It will be interesting to see the effects of greater demand. On the flip side, the trucking industry is beginning to transition towards natural gas.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Good for General Motors and I support this decision.
It's about time.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more.



The diesel will last MUCH longer than this 'Eco' Cruze.
Diesel is an old, reliable and trusted technology and has proven to outlive it's gasoline counterparts.
I don't trust this new 'eco' stuff and I be when the eco cars start to get old, they will be unreliable and very expensive to maintain.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Diesel and gas prices aren't in constant propotion. Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.


  

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
There is also this fact: the EPA fuel testing is gas engined-centric; it sucks for testing diesel fuel mileage. The reality is that diesel cars get 15 to 25% better fuel results than the EPA estimates. The Cruze diesel will be no different. Like the Jetta and Golf, real world mileage will probably be 50-55MPG.



  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Diesel and gas prices aren't in constant propotion. Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.

Just based on how I see the prices move it seems that diesel fluctuates less. I don't often see thirty or forty cent swings in the diesel prices.

The government absolutely needs to fix the taxation of fuel in the US. They could help out a lot by removing the six cent per gallon penalty diesel buyers are saddled with. States (those which do it anyway) should follow suit and equalize taxes.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
The diesel will last MUCH longer than this 'Eco' Cruze.
Diesel is an old, reliable and trusted technology and has proven to outlive it's gasoline counterparts.

I'm not sure I buy that. Yes, gas engines are still more complicated, but diesel engines have gotten more complicated and all engines are built better. Like my grandfather's 3000 mile oil changes, this old bit of conventional wisdom might not be true anymore.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more. And the fuel costs more. Not what you'd call progress.

The Cruze is priced within $200 of a DSG-automatic equipped VW Jetta, and the Cruze comes loaded with leather interior and lots of power options. The Diesel Cruze is not a "stripped" model, it's loaded. So it's not exactly apples-to-oranges comparison. Diesel fuel costs are higher in the USA, but the fuel economy of the diesel variant should be much, much better than the gas Eco variant of the Cruze - 50 mpg seems reasonable for highway mileage. This car will really appeal to high mileage drivers that spend a lot of time on the interstate - it should sell reasonably well out here in the West where distances between cities runs in the hundreds of miles and the 270 lbs-feet of torque that the diesel engine produces will be most helpful in climbing steep mountain grades.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Interesting.

I got a Cruze as a rental car recently, and was sort of expecting an updated Cavalier (which would not be terrible, but hardly... Inspiring). The Cruze was much better than I expected, with excellent driving dynamics, good interior comfort and very quiet. It was impressive.

Still have a hard time wrapping my brain around a $26k Cruze, but then again, these $60k trucks my clients are buying amaze me too.

I may never buy a new car again!



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6124 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2256 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Can't be worse than GM's last attempt at diesel cars in America.

That Olds 350 diesel was a TURD!!!! They don't get any bigger. The 4.3 diesel wasn't too bad, but not that many were made.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
So, it gets the same mileage as a Cruze Eco and costs $6000 more. And the fuel costs more. Not what you'd call progress

Since it has more features than the Eco it may appeal to more people. The diesel engine will likely appeal to diesel enthusiasts regardless of price.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
It's a cool piece of technology.

It is nice to a an American diesel powered car sold in the USA.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):

For whatever reason, though, GM decided to make the car very well-equipped. It comes with a lot of expensive options like leather, alloy wheels and auto transmission standard, that are optional on lesser models. Those three things alone are probably $2-3k in options. So compared to a comparatively equipped model, the difference isn't as large.

I have a 2012 Buick Verano that is the fully loaded model, which cost a hair under 30K. I have seen a lot more of the top model Verano than the low level model. So a 26K-30K small car isn't really that far fetched.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The engine is based on the diesel unit Chevrolet currently sells in European-market Cruzes - where about 40 percent of buyers choose the diesel version.

They actually sell a petrol powered Cruze in Europe, you could have fooled me because I've never seen one, let alone 60% of them being petrol, that's gotta be wrong.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6124 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2244 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
They actually sell a petrol powered Cruze in Europe, you could have fooled me because I've never seen one, let alone 60% of them being petrol, that's gotta be wrong.

I wonder if they are actually the Chevy Cruze or also the Vauxhall/Opel cars on the same platform.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Can't be worse than GM's last attempt at diesel cars in America.

Hahahaha----isn't that the truth!
However, incredibly, I knew a fellow back in Atlanta years ago who had about a '79 Fleetwood Brougham with a diesel in it. He had a sales territory all over the deep-south and he put over 300k miles on that damned car without any significant trouble. He finally traded it in the mid-80's! Who knew? He said he just changed the oil/filter and fuel filter with regularity.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
You do get more performance.

Yeah. 148 horses is pretty good for a car that size getting that kind of fuel mileage.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2634 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I wonder if they are actually the Chevy Cruze or also the Vauxhall/Opel cars on the same platform.

They are (not only the Cruze). And the Cruze is actually cheaper than a comparable Opel.
Here you can see what's offered in my old country. The site is only in Slovak, but all you need to do is click on "Modely"

http://www.chevrolet.sk/

[Edited 2013-02-08 08:36:11]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I wonder if they are actually the Chevy Cruze or also the Vauxhall/Opel cars on the same platform.

It looks the same. Chevrolet has been trying to be its own brand in Europe for a couple of years. They even sell the Camaro and the Corvette. Also the Volt. I've seen a couple of Camaros and some Sparks and Aveos, but no sedans. Maybe some crossover SUVs but those look all the same to me.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33035 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Like the Jetta and Golf, real world mileage will probably be 50-55MPG.

Source for this "real-world" number?

Ask any Jetta diesel owner. Or read a test drive of a Jetta diesel.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Diesel and gas prices aren't in constant propotion. Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.

That has not been the case for many years now. It is generally 10-20% more in my area. It will be interesting to see the effects of greater demand. On the flip side, the trucking industry is beginning to transition towards natural gas.

It hasn't been the case lately, but it was the case around 2008-09, and it will be the case again. These things are in constant flux.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 13):
I have a 2012 Buick Verano that is the fully loaded model, which cost a hair under 30K. I have seen a lot more of the top model Verano than the low level model. So a 26K-30K small car isn't really that far fetched.

I realize that, I don't think it's expensive for a loaded compact car; I'm just curious as to why GM decided to make this a premium model, instead of offering a more basic model with the diesel like Volkswagen. Diesel buyers tend to be more practical, do not always want all those luxury touches.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I wonder if they are actually the Chevy Cruze or also the Vauxhall/Opel cars on the same platform.

They are the Chevrolet Cruze, which in reality is the current generation Daewoo Nubira. Opel does not share Chevrolets. Opels are shared with Buick (e.g. the Buick Verano is an Opel Astra).



a.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 15):
I wonder if they are actually the Chevy Cruze or also the Vauxhall/Opel cars on the same platform.

Doubt it, Chevy sales and those of Vauxhall Opel are kept very separate, you barely ever see a Chevy in Europe, they just aren't on the average car buyers radar.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 17):
They are (not only the Cruze). And the Cruze is actually cheaper than a comparable Opel.

And they sell bugger all of them in Europe, the Chevy brand name is barely one step above Great Wall or Cherry.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6124 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2121 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
. Chevrolet has been trying to be its own brand in Europe for a couple of years. They even sell the Camaro and the Corvette. Also the Volt. I've seen a couple of Camaros and some Sparks and Aveos, but no sedans

I have seen some Chevy Cruze sedans in the UK.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2634 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
And they sell bugger all of them in Europe, the Chevy brand name is barely one step above Great Wall or Cherry.



Well, considering the circumstances it's not a surprise. Those re-badged Daewoos they started to sell under the Chevy brand were nothing to write home about. The sad part is that the comparable real Chevys were actually worse.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33035 posts, RR: 71
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
Doubt it, Chevy sales and those of Vauxhall Opel are kept very separate, you barely ever see a Chevy in Europe, they just aren't on the average car buyers radar.

What are you talking about? Chevrolet sold over half a million cars in Europe in 2012. Now it's most popular markets are Eastern - like Russia and the Ukraine - but it still sold about 200,000 vehicles in the Western European markets.



a.
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 22):
Well, considering the circumstances it's not a surprise. Those re-badged Daewoos they started to sell under the Chevy brand were nothing to write home about. The sad part is that the comparable real Chevys were actually worse.

You cannot possibly be serious. Daewoos were utter garbage - no comparison.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2634 posts, RR: 5
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 24):
You cannot possibly be serious. Daewoos were utter garbage - no comparison.

OK, I rephrase: The sad part is that the comparable real Chevy was actually worse.

When the Daewoo Lacetti was introduced in Europe as the Chevrolet Lacetti, GM was still selling the Cavalier over here. I tried both, the Lacetti was way better. Regardless, it was hated on both sides of the Atlantic.
The Daewoo Kalos was sold under the same name here and in Europe as well. It was hated in Europe. Both models contributed to Chevrolet's poor reputation in Europe.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2096 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 16):
Yeah. 148 horses is pretty good for a car that size getting that kind of fuel mileage.

BMW basically did the same thing bringing the 335d to the US. They had more efficient diesels but didn't bring those.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Chevrolet has been trying to be its own brand in Europe for a couple of years. They even sell the Camaro and the Corvette. Also the Volt. I've seen a couple of Camaros and some Sparks and Aveos, but no sedans. Maybe some crossover SUVs but those look all the same to me.

GM in Europe is pretty messed up at the moment.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 25):
OK, I rephrase: The sad part is that the comparable real Chevy was actually worse

I don't think GM even uses the Daewoo brand anymore. That's how awful they were.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
BMW basically did the same thing bringing the 335d to the US. They had more efficient diesels but didn't bring those.

That's the delicate balance with diesels (in the US). Americans wants the 60 mpg or whatnot that they claim those models get in the EU, but they don't want the performance that comes along with that (especially in a premium brand like BMW).


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
They actually sell a petrol powered Cruze in Europe, you could have fooled me because I've never seen one, let alone 60% of them being petrol, that's gotta be wrong.

The 40 percent of European Cruze sales being diesel powered vehicles is quoted directly from Chevrolet's press release yesterday announcing the launch of the U.S. Cruze TD model. I'll find the link for it.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33035 posts, RR: 71
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 27):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
BMW basically did the same thing bringing the 335d to the US. They had more efficient diesels but didn't bring those.

That's the delicate balance with diesels (in the US). Americans wants the 60 mpg or whatnot that they claim those models get in the EU, but they don't want the performance that comes along with that (especially in a premium brand like BMW).

Well, Mercedes has confirmed the E250 and ML250 CDI coming to the States later in 2013; and, still unconfirmed, but BMW is likely bringing the 320d sedan and wagon early next year.



a.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6723 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2095 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 28):
The 40 percent of European Cruze sales being diesel powered vehicles is quoted directly from Chevrolet's press release yesterday announcing the launch of the U.S. Cruze TD model. I'll find the link for it.

If they include eastern Europe and Russia that would certainly explain it.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
This car, which will be available in both the United States and Canada, uses a 148-horsepower turbocharged 2.0-liter diesel 4-cylinder engine and a 6-speed automatic transmission. The company is projecting 42 mpg on the highway (the same EPA rating as the current TDI Jetta) and GM claims that the car will offer best-in-class driving range.

First; If GM is "predicting" 42 MPG, you can be very certain you will never see anything like 46 MPG. much less in the 50s.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Cruze will be the first diesel car offered by General Motors since Chevy sold a diesel version of the Chevette in 1986. The diesel Cruze is expected to be available for purchase in American Chevy dealerships by late spring 2013.

The engine GM put in what few diesel Chevettes they built, wasn't built by GM; it was made by one of the Japanese companies, and was a very good small diesel; To my knowledge, the diesel they plan to use in the Cruze is GM built; which means that it will be "dogey" at best, and sh***y at worst. (which seldom, if ever. produces substantial sales)

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Pricing should start at $26,695

Which is the first of about 10 reasons people will never buy it in sufficient numbers to break even, let alone make a buck on the thing.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
My personal preference is natural gas (switchable to petrol). Ive seen that for years in taxis in Sydney & Melbourne. Worked well in the full sized cars, would help car makers meet emission standards and can be less expensive. We also have a huge supply in the ground.

Most of that is true; however, you're talking about Australia; this is the U.S.; there's a HUGE difference between "what works" in a "fleet" (busses and cabs), and the general car market; cars MUST be built for the "people" who are going to be driving them; If you were watching the recent thread about "who drives standard shift" here, you will have noted that, anyone under about 30 or 35 yrs old, is greatly "challenged" to be able to tie their own shoes, much less to be able to "cope" with standard transmissions, NG or LPG fuel systems, PLUS, it would cost "somebody" about ten trillion bucks to build all the infrastructure to "fuel up" your NG (or LPG) daily driver. (I'm sure "some one" could figure out a way to make the "rich 1 %" PAY for the whole thing though.) My best guess is, within the next five years, there will be NO MORE shoe strings in shoes. (for the same reason) (velcro is just soooooo much "simpler" !)

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
Right now diesel fuel costs more; three months from now it may very well cost less.

You are right about "costing more", but the difference is greater than 15 to 20% more. also.......almost NO possibility of diesel getting down to gas prices, because No. 1, it's controlled by a much different "market", and 2. it costs refiners substantially MORE to produce, (thanks to your "Gubmint" (EPA)

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Yes, gas engines are still more complicated, but diesel engines have gotten more complicated and all engines are built better.

Quote; gas engines are still more complicated Quote=BMI727 That statement tells me that you have never taken a diesel engine OR injection system apart, and put it back together again; diesels always have, always will....cost much more to build than a comparable gas engine. For MANY reasons; yes, diesels HAVE gotten more "complicated", but most of the added "complication" is in the fuel system, rather than in the "lower end"; the lower end, (block, crank, connecting rods, pistons, cam shaft , etc aren't so much "more complicated", as they are "built to much higher tolerances", simple because they MUST BE, due mainly to the fact that ALL diesel engines are dependent on "compression ignition", rather than "spark ignition" as is the case in ALL gasoline engines. When you add all of that extra cost up, THEN add on another $.50 to a dollar a gal. for fuel, you have just built a car that the American car buying public are going to "walk on by", on their way to the nearest Toyota Dealer. (Mark this down and remind me I was right in a year from now!)

Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
I may never buy a new car again!

If you ever have, you were doing a very unwise thing, cost wise.

In a nut shell, there are many reasons why GM got into the hole they were in , and are still in; the main one being, their basic philosophy on "marketing"; GM's "philosophy" is: "We'll figure out what WE think the public "needs", then we'll be the 800 pound gorilla, and MAKE them buy it, (whether they like it or not); that "philosophy" used to work; (but that was BEFORE Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, and about 9 more Asian car makers came along; (it DOESN"T "work" anymore !)

Unless GM buys about 6 oil refineries and starts selling diesel fuel 15 cents less than gasoline, the diesel "car"market will remain right where it is right now; in 2500 and 3500 series P/U trucks. Period.

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
That statement tells me that you have never taken a diesel engine OR injection system apart, and put it back together again; diesels always have, always will....cost much more to build than a comparable gas engine.

I didn't say diesel would be cheaper. I said that I don't think the "diesel engines are bulletproof and will run on cooking oil" but of wisdom is necessarily true. They are all built to better tolerances and over the years have added more complicated injection mechanisms and all of the tricks to reduce emissions as well. I don't think that diesels are necessarily the simpler, more reliable option anymore.

That said, gas engines have been getting more complex too. To get the necessary power and efficiency manufacturers have been adding all sorts of bells and whistles: direct injection, variable valve timing, turbochargers, etc.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
Unless GM buys about 6 oil refineries and starts selling diesel fuel 15 cents less than gasoline, the diesel "car"market will remain right where it is right now; in 2500 and 3500 series P/U trucks. Period.

VW's been proving that wrong for a while. Either way, it isn't like GM is really sticking their neck out here as the diesel Cruze is already designed and produced for the European market.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5555 posts, RR: 28
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
I may never buy a new car again!

If you ever have, you were doing a very unwise thing, cost wise.

I've bought one (1) car new, for myself - 2001 Deville. Great car, fast, amazingly economical, smooth, quiet, comfy. Loved it.

Now, I have a Suburban (2003). 150,000 miles, drives and operates like a new car.

Bought a car recently for wifie (well, year and half ago), BMW on lease return. Saved something like 25k over what it would cost new. So far, so good.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
Most of that is true; however, you're talking about Australia

Even in Australia, LPG is almost totallly a taxi fuel, even though both GM (Holden) and Ford have been selling dual fuel and LPG full sized sedans for many years and LPG is at most fuel stations. It's only been the last 3 or 4 years where LPG systems didn't cause a signifcant drop in power from petrol on the same engine, and LPG tanks are still quite intrusive.

The Cruze diesel seems to be doing decent volumes here in Australia, although the locally assembled Cruze (petrol and diesel) was outsold last month by the Thai built Focus - the Focus of course being the better car to drive. Neither of them came near the best selling Mazda3 or even the Corolla. And Opel possibly sold a couple of Astras - can't see that that launch has been very successful.  


User currently offlineIH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1142 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2005 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):

What are you talking about? Chevrolet sold over half a million cars in Europe in 2012. Now it's most popular markets are Eastern - like Russia and the Ukraine - but it still sold about 200,000 vehicles in the Western European markets.

In the UK they're still very much a minor brand - though their share is growing. Looking at the UK market alone (figures from UK industry body the SMMT), Chevrolet registered just under 13,500 cars in 2012. Although that was over 7% up on the previous year, by comparison Vauxhall's car registrations for the year, though 1% down on 2011, were over 230,000. Even at the present rate of growth Chevrolet remains a relative minnow here and, if you look at their marketing, still sells on price rather than model strength, despite the fact that they're now producing some competitive cars. Anecdotally, I don't think the Cruze has very good name recognition in the UK yet - but that comes with time.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
For whatever reason, though, GM decided to make the car very well-equipped. It comes with a lot of expensive options like leather, alloy wheels and auto transmission standard, that are optional on lesser models. Those three things alone are probably $2-3k in options. So compared to a compartively equipped model, the difference isn't as large.

Easier, presumably, to hide the increased cost of the diesel engine in the price of the higher-margin, higher spec cars?

[Edited 2013-02-09 04:52:44]


Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 23):
but it still sold about 200,000 vehicles in the Western European markets.

Really I'd love to know where they are hiding them all, must be rentals or something, maybe people are so ashamed that they actually bought one they keep them hidden in their garages  


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1780 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
I'm sure city mileage will be better for the diesel.

Why? Was under the guise they typically fare better on longer trips.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
The reality is that diesel cars get 15 to 25% better fuel results than the EPA estimates.

I've never seen otherwise.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Diesel is an old, reliable and trusted technology and has proven to outlive it's gasoline counterparts.

Indeed.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 12):
but then again, these $60k trucks my clients are buying amaze me too.

Rode one to other day. Can pull a horse trailer and comfy as heck!

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
f you were watching the recent thread about "who drives standard shift" here, you will have noted that, anyone under about 30 or 35 yrs old, is greatly "challenged" to be able to tie their own shoes, much less to be able to "cope" with standard transmissions, NG or LPG fuel systems, PLUS, it would cost "somebody" about ten trillion bucks to build all the infrastructure to "fuel up" your NG (or LPG) daily driver. (I'm sure "some one" could figure out a way to make the "rich 1 %" PAY for the whole thing though.) My best guess is, within the next five years, there will be NO MORE shoe strings in shoes. (for the same reason) (velcro is just soooooo much "simpler" !)

You are so right. Loved that post! So true!

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
Unless GM buys about 6 oil refineries and starts selling diesel fuel 15 cents less than gasoline, the diesel "car"market will remain right where it is right now; in 2500 and 3500 series P/U trucks. Period.

And......ta daaaaaaa!!!!!! The Ram 1500 is getting a diesel. GM puts put a game exchanger!!!!


Now I have to decide on a new Ram 1500 Diesel or a CPO Ram 2500..... Just love the ability to have a choice in the matter!!



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1767 times:

The ONLY problem with this car is the price tag.
$26,000 is way too much for a little Chevrolet Cruze. The proper price for this should be about $19,000.
You can get a Buick Regal or even a base Chrysler 300 for $26,000.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33035 posts, RR: 71
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
You are right about "costing more", but the difference is greater than 15 to 20% more. also.......almost NO possibility of diesel getting down to gas prices, because No. 1, it's controlled by a much different "market", and 2. it costs refiners substantially MORE to produce, (thanks to your "Gubmint" (EPA)

Here in LA, diesel today is now cheaper than Premium. So there goes that prediction.



a.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1749 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
To my knowledge, the diesel they plan to use in the Cruze is GM built; which means that it will be "dogey" at best, and sh***y at worst.

Charlie the engine is designed in Germany, the Germans know a thing or two about making decent diesels, it's actually quite a nice engine I've had an Insignia rental with that motor, drove from Hamburg to Oslo in it, it cruised nicely at 150kph on the autobahn and 140 ish in Denmark, pretty quiet as well. We averaged about 6.5 litres per hundred km which was pretty good imo since I thrashed the crap out of it.


User currently onlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1738 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
Charlie the engine is designed in Germany, the Germans know a thing or two about making decent diesels, it's actually quite a nice engine I've had an Insignia rental with that motor, drove from Hamburg to Oslo in it, it cruised nicely at 150kph on the autobahn and 140 ish in Denmark, pretty quiet as well. We averaged about 6.5 litres per hundred km which was pretty good imo since I thrashed the crap out of it.

Not quite. The engines on the Insignia are still the Fiat-sourced JTDs, but the ones on the chevys are made by Daewoo in Korea and were designed by VM Motori.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 41):
VM Motori.

Which is owned by Fiat.

Where ever thay come from they are a decent motor.


User currently onlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1861 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Where ever thay come from they are a decent motor.

They seem to be tuned for economy rather than power/torque.

They're noticeably more sluggish at low RPM than a JTD (CDTI in Opel).


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 43):
They seem to be tuned for economy rather than power/torque.

It's a budget economy car not a performance car.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Here's why we haven't gotten diesel-powered cars in the recent past: the Euro5 emissions certification is weaker than the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions certification needed to sell an automobile in the USA.

But now that new cars in Euirope have to meet the more stringent Euro6 certification (which is more or less equivalent to EPA Tier 2 Bin 5), we will see a plethora of diesel-powered cars in the US market. Already, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz all plan to expand their turbodiesel vehicle offerings over the next two years, and Mazda will offer their Skyactiv turbodiesel engine on US-market CX-5 and Mazda6 models later in 2013.


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 45):
plethora of diesel-powered cars in the US market.

Another blow to the us auto manufacture if that happens, the only way to prevent it is to keep fuel prices low.

I think once people drive these cars and realise that they are powerful and vary efficient and not nosey - smoky like the old diesels the'll switch.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1680 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 46):
I think once people drive these cars and realise that they are powerful and vary efficient and not nosey - smoky like the old diesels the'll switch.

Remember that in the US we are still using around 42 cetane diesel, thanks to the trucking lobby, rather than 52 cetane which you get in Europe. You just won't get the same mileage and efficiency out of that fuel as you guys get.

Low-cetane fuel is fine for big truck engines that never turn faster than 2000 RPM. Car diesels need to turn over a lot faster, hence the need for higher cetane.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
You just won't get the same mileage and efficiency out of that fuel as you guys get.

But still more efficient than the petrol powered equivalent.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
The diesel will last MUCH longer than this 'Eco' Cruze.
Diesel is an old, reliable and trusted technology and has proven to outlive it's gasoline counterparts.
I don't trust this new 'eco' stuff and I be when the eco cars start to get old, they will be unreliable and very expensive to maintain.

You do know that the new tech on the gas engines is largely what has made diesel relevant today? Direct injection, etc. And gas engines today mostly easily outlive the car. What made diesel last longer in previous generations was that they had to be overbuilt (heavy) to withstand the pressures.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
Ask any Jetta diesel owner. Or read a test drive of a Jetta diesel.

I've read many stories. You see an occasional hyper-miler getting over 50 on long stretches in certain conditions, but that is not the norm and your statement is exaggerated hype.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
It hasn't been the case lately, but it was the case around 2008-09, and it will be the case again. These things are in constant flux.

I am not finding that fact. I am rushed for time but maybe you can point out when exactly that happened? http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_w.htm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 31):
To my knowledge, the diesel they plan to use in the Cruze is GM built; which means that it will be "dogey" at best, and sh***y at worst. (which seldom, if ever. produces substantial sales)

The engine is and has always been GM built. Made in Germany.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 32):
VW's been proving that wrong for a while.

VW may ultimately give diesel the bad name considering their continued abysmyl reliability problems in this country. I was surprised to see them in the bottom 5 again for the 2010 model year. They could not even best Chrysler.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7557 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
You do know that the new tech on the gas engines is largely what has made diesel relevant today?

Nice to see that you admit that diesel is relevant today.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 46):
I think once people drive these cars and realise that they are powerful and vary efficient and not nosey - smoky like the old diesels the'll switch.

People in the USA used to think of diesels with their clattering, smoky exhaust engines with no high-end power. But anyone who's driven a US-market Volkswagen powered by the 2.0-liter 142 ps TDI engine knows this is NOT the case--in fact, it's only when you first start the engine you hear a little clatter. Thanks to better engine block designs, common-rail pressurized direct fuel injection, the use of particulate filters and (sometimes) urea injection into the exhaust stream to make it easier to remove NOx gases, today's diesel engines are very civilized and powerful engines.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 38):
$26,000 is way too much for a little Chevrolet Cruze. The proper price for this should be about $19,000.

I agree. GM does not get the marketing concepts the Germans have used for years. Sell your bottom of the line at a loss. Get people excited about it.

The Cruze is an incredible $19,000 car. But a poor $26,000 car. That is Honda Accord money. GM could have engineered a favorable comparison by lowering the price. Gotten a lot of great publicity. Then, 4-5 years later they could raise the price on top of demand.

By pricing it to make profits now as a v1.0 product, they ensure it will only sell to GM diesel fanatics, who number a few dozen maybe (a few thousand).

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
And gas engines today mostly easily outlive the car.

Correct, a well maintained gas motor will last longer than most human drivers' skeletal muscles could possibly drive them.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1579 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 19):
Ask any Jetta diesel owner. Or read a test drive of a Jetta diesel.

I think my mother averages about 45 mpg in her Jetta TDI wagon (lots of highway commuting miles). It goes up to 47 mpg on the interstate when you're taking a trip. I don't think she's ever averaged 50 or greater but the only tank that was ever lower than 40 was the very first one (39mpg).


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 54, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 52):
I agree. GM does not get the marketing concepts the Germans have used for years. Sell your bottom of the line at a loss. Get people excited about it.

The Cruze is an incredible $19,000 car. But a poor $26,000 car. That is Honda Accord money. GM could have engineered a favorable comparison by lowering the price. Gotten a lot of great publicity. Then, 4-5 years later they could raise the price on top of demand.

Where did you get the idea that the Jetta TDI is so much cheaper? It starts at $23,085 + $795 destination charge while the Cruze is $24,885 + $795 destination charge. It should be noted that the base Jetta TDI has a manual, the Cruze will have a automatic. The automatic Jetta TDI is $24,155 + $795 destination charge. So the Cruze Diesel is price competitive...the Jetta TDI has about an ~$6,000 price premium over the base model, just like the Cruze Diesel.


User currently offlinebaw2198 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 637 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

I would be very interested in buying one, however, I see no need to purchase one until that 4.5 gal tank of epa "foo foo" juice is removed. If diesels produce less CO emissions than gasoline powered vehicles, why is this little tank of crud needed?


"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2634 posts, RR: 5
Reply 56, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting baw2198 (Reply 55):
If diesels produce less CO emissions than gasoline powered vehicles, why is this little tank of crud needed?

Because it's there to eliminate the NOx emissions, not CO.


User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting baw2198 (Reply 55):
I would be very interested in buying one, however, I see no need to purchase one until that 4.5 gal tank of epa "foo foo" juice is removed. If diesels produce less CO emissions than gasoline powered vehicles, why is this little tank of crud needed?

You do understand that localised particulate emissions (a significant contributor to smog and a likely carcinogen) are different to CO2 and its global impacts? Diesels emit less CO2 because they are more fuel efficient by swept volume than petrol/gasoline vehicles.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 58, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
VW may ultimately give diesel the bad name considering their continued abysmyl reliability problems in this country. I was surprised to see them in the bottom 5 again for the 2010 model year. They could not even best Chrysler.

Volkswagen has serious problems with the TDI engine's reliability due to its high-pressure fuel pump. Due to the less than optimal quality of North American diesel fuel (there's more moisture/water allowable in diesel refined here than in diesel fuel refined in Europe) the fuel pumps on TDI Volkswagen has had an extremely annoying and common problem - the pump tends to "grenade" itself due to internal corrosion, throwing metal shards of the pump throughout the entire fuel system and engine.... potentially a $6000 plus USD repair cost. A class-action suit by TDI purchasers made VW own up to the problem.... after a couple of years. A Google search turned up thousands of complaints on this subject.....



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1531 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 54):
Where did you get the idea that the Jetta TDI is so much cheaper?

Not what I said at all. Jetta TDI is a premium product and a longtime market leader. GM is to put it VERY mildly not in the same category at all. This reminds me of Cadillac saying they have the BMW 3 series beaten. Cadillac, if all goes well, in 2023 MAY be in a position to discuss earning price yields equal to the 3 series.

No, GM has to be much cheaper as a new contender. Let's watch if the product holds up over the life cycle. In 10 years, let's absolutely talk about pricing in line with the Germans. For now, I'll take a German car, thanks.

[Edited 2013-02-15 20:32:05]

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 59):
Let's watch if the product holds up over the life cycle.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 59):
For now, I'll take a German car, thanks.

     
German cars are known for their engineering. Not their long term reliablity.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 61, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
You do know that the new tech on the gas engines is largely what has made diesel relevant today? Direct injection, etc. And gas engines today mostly easily outlive the car. What made diesel last longer in previous generations was that they had to be overbuilt (heavy) to withstand the pressures.


I thought that had more to do with diesel fuel being a lubricant, unlike gasoline which is a solvent.

Quoting Polot (Reply 60):
German cars are known for their engineering. Not their long term reliablity.


Isn't that one of the same? A well engineered car should last forever with minimal maintenance.
I'd take a 1984 Volkswagen Rabbit diesel in a heartbeat if I had a long daily commute.
15 years from now, that same 1984 Volkswagen Rabbit diesel will be more reliable and cheaper to own than a 2012 Chevy Volt or 2005 Toyota Prius.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
VW may ultimately give diesel the bad name considering their continued abysmyl reliability problems in this country. I was surprised to see them in the bottom 5 again for the 2010 model year. They could not even best Chrysler.


Are you sure it's the diesels that are dragging Volkswagen's numbers down?
Glad to see Lincoln beat out Mercedes and Buick beat out BMW and Audi.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 60):
German cars are known for their engineering. Not their long term reliablity.

GM cars are well engineered too. Usually. But BMW has high residual values and low lease prices mainly because a 5 year old BMW is still a really good car.

GM can't just show up with a brand new model, in year 1, and price equal with the Germans who have been at it 20+ years. It's silly.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 63, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1413 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
Isn't that one of the same? A well engineered car should last forever with minimal maintenance.

I didn't say they were known for well engineering. I said they were known for their engineering. They sometimes have a tendency to make things more complicated with little benefit, and they also are known for being on the forefront of technology. An example of impressive engineering, but with the drawback of encountering all the bugs and issues that come with being innovative. And something can be well engineered and still have poor reliability- it all depends on how long it was designed to last 
Quoting Flighty (Reply 62):
GM can't just show up with a brand new model, in year 1, and price equal with the Germans who have been at it 20+ years. It's silly.

True, but I think that matters less in this segment versus say the luxury ones. VW heavily decontented this generation's Jetta in order to slash costs to be much more competitive with the American and Japanese competition. Will they sell as many Cruze Diesels as VW does the Jetta TDI? No, probably not. But GM is probably well aware of that.


User currently offlinemirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 64, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1392 times:
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[quote=mham001,reply=49][VW may ultimately give diesel the bad name considering their continued abysmyl reliability problems in this country. I was surprised to see them in the bottom 5 again for the 2010 model year. They could not even best Chrysler. /quote].

I'm pretty happy and surprised to see Ram up at the top 10 slot!



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 65, posted (1 year 8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 63):
I didn't say they were known for well engineering. I said they were known for their engineering.


Ah ok, I see what mean.

Quoting Polot (Reply 63):
They sometimes have a tendency to make things more complicated with little benefit



That's the damn truth!
I helped a friend work on his 1985 Mercedes 190E and it was one big headache.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1299 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 51):
today's diesel engines are very civilized and powerful engines.

That's what I'm saying.

Once people try diesel and see the benefit, the'll switch.

I drive a 2009 bmw 320d and will soon be buying a 520d or 525d. The 320 was my first diesel and even though i don't do more than 15k a year i love the car.


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