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Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

In last nights speech, Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour. I for one think this is a huge mistake was a lot of small businesses could not afford to do this, and be forced to reduce headcount leading to more unemployment making matters worse.

I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

308 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

He doesn't know economics 101 of capitalism and the free market economy. There will ALWAYS be some unemployment (though it can get down to the 3-4% range) and you can raise the minimum wage all you want, but prices will just go up to compensate for it. There will ALWAYS be people at the bottom. Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.


"Head knocking against the wall" with these asinine policies.



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

Great utopian theory. There was a time not that long ago when it was like that. It wasn't fun.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

If you can't pay enough to provide reasonable living you should not be in business. All you are doing is dragging everyone down.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20460 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4305 times:

Of course he does. It's a main goal of his party to see the min wage rise. Don't see it happening, however.


So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16846 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas.

Same here in New Jersey, and our prices are cheaper than all but four States in the Nation.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6575 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
minimum wage to $9.00 per hour.

There are some GOP states whose minimum wage is higher than the federal one.

www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Interesting map - really...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinevenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

He can raise the minimum all he wants. All it will do is make the employers pass on costs to the consumer, lower his payroll and cut hours to the remaining employees especially if is a major corporation like McDonald's or and other chain store that answers to shareholders and not their employees and customers. It seems every time Washington opens its mouth about business the ranks of the part time and unemployed rise. It will be a harder in the future to find full time entry level work.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

I never gave a thought to minimum wage in the US until seeing this thread and I'm surprised how low it is! Here it is $10.25, and nobody is shutting their doors because the raises.

But with that said, Obama isn't solving the underlying problem. The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees. Raising minimum wage to $9 won't have a positive impact (nor will it have a disastrous effect that some people are suggesting).

Also, Boehner needs to crack a smile once in a while. I've never seen a more sour-faced man in my life than I did during the SOTU last night. Can't be good for his health to be so pissed off all the time. Perhaps a few less trips to the tanning salon would help as well... 
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I generally promote a total free market economy, but in this instance we would have to tread incredibly lightly.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas
Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Same here in New Jersey

That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees

  
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinehOmsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

The "minimum wage" was never intended to be a living wage, perhaps. But these days, when Wal Mart is the biggest employer in some towns and entire families' wages are dependent on what essentially amount to minimum-wage jobs, the minimum wage has become the de facto living wage for these people.

We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

Nowadays, the jobs that sustained the middle class are leaving (and have been for a few decades now). The only jobs left for lots of people are these minimum-wage jobs.

It completely sucks, but that's the way it is. Unless and until this fact changes, then you can't keep treating the minimum wage as if it's just for part-time college students looking for extra spending money.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20460 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!

Jobs is the usual reason given these days, but Oregon law actually codifies 17 separate reasons for banning self-dispensing of gasoline in the state:

480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

(1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

(2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

(3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

(4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon’s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

(5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or has a disability, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

(6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and persons with disabilities in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and persons with disabilities must pay the higher costs of full service;

(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

(8) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

(9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

(10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:
(a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;
(b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or have disabilities who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices; and
(c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

(11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

(12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

(13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

(14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

(15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to persons with disabilities, elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

(16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to persons with disabilities at retail gasoline stations; and

(17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5490 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster

Together, they are an added cost of doing business. The reality is, doing business requires making money, and most business owners are pretty smart people. You can only raise your prices so much in this economy before demand begins to fall, so you have to balance price increases with other measures. In the case of labor, you are going to mitigate the increases by reducing hours, gaining efficiencies, and avoiding added burdens such as ObamaCare.

The end result will be a lot more people working, but a lot less of them working full-time.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?

1. Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon. Oregon is at 30 cents, so even adding in the cost of labor for pumping it might still come out a wash. There are also many people in Washington who work in Portland and who probably will fuel up there if it's a nickel a gallon less.

2. You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative. If McDonald's raises the price of a Big Mac, Kohl's raises the price of underwear, or Starbucks raises the price of coffee, I have options. But I can't get gas from Joe's Espresso, Fuel, and Towing without paying all of the same things that Chevron charges.

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

And that says as much about the rising cost of college as it does about the need for a rise in the minimum wage.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Not enough right wingers understand that it is what many companies pay full time employees.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8459 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

It's an unnecessary cost. It is the same thing as mailing welfare checks to those same guys. You say you don't notice the cost of that. Okay. But it's there. The reality is, you are paying a tax and receiving nothing of value for it. The model is NOT promising.

Edit: Just want to add, my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics. When government makes these decisions for us, the decisions aren't very good. Investment in useful activities that improves people's lives goes down. Motivation to succeed goes down. Society ends up without a business sector -- meaning, people do nothing you'd be willing to pay them for.

[Edited 2013-02-13 09:29:09]

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees


Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Oh well .. in that case, let's just put things back in there proper place shall we...

...women were meant to stay at home, not taking up a job that man could have.

And none of this, working two jobs to make ends meet..one job will do.
That job not paying enough to make ends meet??? Too bad for you, keep looking ...because this
..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour ...

Is out there for you somewhere... but wait..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
...and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.

...oh then never mind, that's just not going to do you any good, is it?


That's what it was 'meant to be' is an acceptable answer??? Society 30 years ago was meant to be something else too and guess what it's completely different 30 years later - meaning, times have changed, good lord!

If only common sense stood a chance against insanity..

How is it that some seriously twisted mindsets have no problem with fuel prices rising exponentially (because the oil companies MUST maintain profit levels), distribution cost continually on the increase, warehousing cost must rise along with the steady climb of production cost resulting in inflated rates and prices for virtually everything sold...but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3042 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4172 times:

While I will agree with many that the minimum wage is not something that should be treated as the wage for living, keep in mind something that the OP conveniently left out:

Quote:
In fact, working folks shouldn’t have to wait year after year for the minimum wage to go up while CEO pay has never been higher. So here’s an idea that Governor Romney and I actually agreed on last year: let’s tie the minimum wage to the cost of living, so that it finally becomes a wage you can live on.

Notice the two bold areas:
1) If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

2) Of course, if a President Romney had said this, then perhaps this thread would be nonexistent or in support of the policy.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

If we did this, then unemployment would certainly drop but wages would be a fraction of what they are now. If a free market decides the minimum wage, I'll bet you anything that a board of directors locked up in a building would decide to keep the wages low and split the profits among themselves. Free market supporters give too much credit to the integrity of big executives. We were told to give millionaires a tax rate so that they create jobs. It's been 10 years since the Bush tax cuts were enacted. Where did employment go?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8459 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

People making $7 now seeking $9 now will be either losing their job or getting $9... at the expense of the poor guy or gal who was laid off. Most likely, robotics will see a boost, further reducing the need for low skill workers.

It's just not a solution that helps ANY group of people. The $7 group overall will not be helped. Certain individuals will be... and others will be hurt.

If people are unwilling to work for under $16, let them quit! Nobody is forcing them to work. Or they can apply for a $16/hr job with the necessary skills. Plenty of Wal Mart employees make $16/hr and much, much more.


User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20460 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4150 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon.

Offset by higher other taxes, such as income and higher property taxes in Oregon. WA has a sales tax to cover what OR collects via other means. CA gas taxes are about on par with WA. Regardless, the difference in pricing just on a direct tax basis is barely $1-$1.50 per fill-up.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative.

Sure there is, you can always drive less, buy at a more competitively priced station, get a more economical car ...



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29792 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4150 times:

I have to wonder if this proposal is Obama's way of compensating those that will be going to part time next year when Obummercare take effect and companies scramble to get under the 50 full time employee limit.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4134 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

Yes, I know..I'm above that. But that's not point.

My point is this..

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):
If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

$100 an hour is certainly a far cry from 'reasonable minimum wage'.. but what the Prez was proposing, $11 I believe seems very reasonable in the face of what's been going on in this country. The rest of the developing nations has CEO average pay at 10-12 x ratio vs that of the average worker...in America it's 35X and more. And the disparity shows no sign of letting up.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20460 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics.

A Federal Minimum Wage is not equal to a planned economy. The minimum wage could be $5 or $10, and it will still be business owners, not the gov't, who decide on what jobs to hire people to fill, their expected productivity, and what benefits to offer.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 4114 times:

I was ascertaining a point by using the "$100/Hr". If it goes to $11, $15 or whatever doesn't matter. Prices will rise and those making the minimum wage will still be at the bottom scraping by. If you aren't happy making that pay, educate yourself and find a higher paying position.

Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20460 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

Considering how many slave owners were among them ...

(Not every analogy stands the test of time.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

..exactly, as their slaves were making them rich...

Concept of minimum wage making sense yet, or are you still advocating everyone just become CEOs and be happy?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
25 hOmsar : Of course, how easy that is. As noted, education expenses have skyrocketed, and even college graduates and other well-educated people have been strug
26 Mir : That's true, but I'm still not sold on the idea that you should be above the poverty line on a minimum wage job. But one thing that we should definit
27 STT757 : Safety.
28 Post contains images AeroWesty : You're welcome! Hey now, you're dealing with a service that's almost an institution now. Who says it has to be logical? I will say this though, once
29 Post contains images pvjin : Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in. I would also lo
30 Post contains images RussianJet : Amazing to see the level of fear created by the prospect of not being able to just leech off the super-low-paid. One well-paid and looked-after worke
31 BN747 : And while you are soooooo certain that you're going to get that great education, and make 'all the right choices' then secure that great paying job a
32 AeroWesty : Not at each visit. The kids at my local Texaco usually work while they're attending school, so they aren't too transient. One guy is on his third yea
33 brilondon : I did not realize how little the wages are in the States. I certainly don't pay my employee that little. I should evaluate their compensation, althou
34 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.epi.org/publication/state...e_declining_value_of_minimum_wage/ How fair is this? I agree with Obama, people are getting screwed here. An ol
35 Geezer : Now that we know what the "law" relative to pumping gasoline in the state of Oregon is.....let me ask you this; Do you have ANY credible statistics s
36 jpetekyxmd80 : And oral sex is illegal in Indiana. Do you think have the patent on 'freedom' or immunity from stupid or archaic laws? I'm sure Oregon will really mi
37 hOmsar : Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately
38 AeroWesty : Why should I care? Gas doesn't cost any more here than anywhere else. What on earth could that possibly have to do with anything? Okay, now you've re
39 FlyDeltaJets : The number 1 employer of minimum wage employees are fast food and big box stores. Most small business pay more than minimum wage for retention purpos
40 jpetekyxmd80 : Hard to believe you've ever set foot in Oregon. You must not have been very observant. That's been the law for 60+years. LOL. Just because you didn't
41 BN747 : That very notion is SO lost on conservatives (even poor conservatives in the Red States who consistently vote against their own interest because they
42 AR385 : Obama should do well to learn from Latin America in the 70s. Raising the minimum wage by decree is a wash. The employers just pass the cost on to the
43 Post contains links and images zkojq : DINGDINGDING We have a winner. Give an extra $20 to one of the working-poor and it will be spent (put back into the economy), give an extra $20 to so
44 BMI727 : Some people get a raise. Others won't. That extra money is going to have to come from somewhere. Doesn't matter. They signed a deal that says he does
45 Geezer : I agree with your viewpoint completely, Joe, but I would point out one additional thing; Obama's "un-affordable" Health Care law is doing that ALREAD
46 Mir : All it gets me (in New Jersey) is wasted time waiting for the attendant to finish with other cars and get to me. It sucks. That's certainly true, but
47 AR385 : Nah. You are not producers. You should try pot though, it´s your biggest cash crop, and meth.
48 Geezer : it's funny that you should mention meth ! That's the No.1 cottage industry with all of the "no-goodniks" around here; the big problems are though, fi
49 AeroWesty : I rarely wait a moment. It usually takes me longer to bend down and flip the filler cap button, than it takes for an attendant to come over to the ca
50 DocLightning : You do have options. Go to a different gas station. Your argument makes no sense. How is gas different from coffee? Assuming you need both to operate
51 seb146 : Here is the problem the radical right understand: since they decided it was in America's best interest to move jobs overseas, the only jobs left here
52 PlanesNTrains : Well, if I drive less, then I need less gas, which means they need less attendants, which doesn't exactly help with the labor pool. Hmmmm.... I'm not
53 BN747 : Must be a phenomenon where you are, this is the 1st I'm hearing of libs having thing to do with meth-heads or their treatment. It's largely a red-sta
54 Post contains images AeroWesty : The more gas costs, the less volume some people fill their tanks with at each purchase, creating more trips to the gas station, increasing the need f
55 KiwiRob : Look at Norway then come back to me, it kicks the US's arse in just about any metric I can think of and it's one of the most socialist countries on t
56 Post contains images Geezer : How do you know that ? Have you bought gasoline in every state ? Don't worry about my "credibility", I'm not; and now you're trying to tell us that O
57 RussianJet : Pay more, be more discerning, enfornce higher standards. Liberals? Why do you consider anyone who desires a certain amount of wealth distribution to
58 AeroWesty : Where a price comparison would be instructive, right across the river in Washington State, it has been well-established that there's no discernible p
59 jpetekyxmd80 : So it's all about states rights until its not? I'm confused now. I thought conservatives wanted a smaller federal government and states having more c
60 pvjin : High amount of welfare we have in here Europe has proven that the system we have around here is totally superior to yours in the US. It's possible to
61 BN747 : Miami is like that, it has no real industry that matches all those mansions on the intercoastal.. *hint, hint* International Banking aka Money Launde
62 Post contains links AeroWesty : Norway just saves a little out of the lunch money to squirrel away.
63 BN747 : Ahh Oil and Gas.. has it always been that way? So with Alaska 'taking care of it's citizens' with socialist Oil stipends... the answer to KiwiRob's q
64 AY-MD11 : Maybe they think if act the same than the rich they will get richer?! my advice is not crave more than you earn.
65 Post contains images KiwiRob : Oil of course, plus it's also a major exporter of electricity to Europe, the oil service industry is massive, Stavanger is one of the oil capitals of
66 Post contains links and images zkojq : But it still costs the employer to train them. Additionally, new employees are much more likely to make mistakes which can potentially cost the firm
67 Darksnowynight : So, forever avoid Oregon because of gas pumping laws. I'm sure you'd be the first. Cause everybody knows liberals will bite your face off and drink y
68 cmf : Without some socialism the best and brightest people are unlikely to get a chance. We need to stop thinking of socialism and capitalism with blinds.
69 WestJet747 : There are too many assumptions going on here. I don't think (at least I hope not) anybody is advocating blanket socialism over the US. The fact is th
70 Post contains links starbuk7 : Just in case you wanted to know, here is a list of the average gas prices by state and the gasoline taxes per state. http://gasbuddy.com/GB_Price_List
71 KiwiRob : My wife is a civil servant, she makes about 90K USD, plus has an amazing pension plan. I delivered newspapers for the first 6 months I lived here, my
72 AY-MD11 : Sure it's good to try to do better and strive for more but in reason. Not take more loan than u can handle and so on..
73 Post contains images WestJet747 : FDI in Norway must be terribly low. I can't see any MNE wanting to have any part of that unless they got the bargain of the century. But what does yo
74 cmf : Why can't we quantify it?
75 WestJet747 : How DO you quantify fair? As I mentioned: There's no one generally accepted definition of "fair" when it comes to wages at any level. There's no one
76 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.epi.org/publication/ib347...-top-one-percent-rebound-strongly/ Some more data on who is getting screwed in this country. Heaven forbid that
77 RussianJet : Certainly pretty common here. As soon as you give an opinion on a particulat topic, you are immediately pigeon-holed and labeled as being one thing o
78 Post contains images WestJet747 : Superb sourcing of an openly liberal think-tank to support a liberal perspective. There are moderate thinktanks out there you know... I read the char
79 Post contains images BMI727 : That and looking at the tax rates, of the states that border Oregon, only Idaho has lower gas taxes. That's because too many Americans are too busy d
80 Post contains images Acheron : While we are at it, let kids work again and reintroduce 18 hours shifts. Usually those who support this kind of idiocy, do it under the assumption th
81 RussianJet : ......and a view held by a range of others. Seriously? It doesn't matter how menial you might consider the work, of course there are always standards
82 Post contains images Ken777 : I spent a lot of years working retail budgets and there is ample ability to increase minimum wages without impacting company performance. If you can'
83 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps. However, if you want to imply that the only increases going on with the McWhatever is labor, then you are missing the bigger picture. Food,
84 Post contains images WestJet747 : Best comment on this thread so far. They pay for it through taxes. Governments with universal healthcare don't just pull it out of their a**es. Do yo
85 KiwiRob : She works for NAV which is the social welfare agency. Which is interesting because BMW is currently the best selling car in the county I live in and
86 BMI727 : Exactly. Some jobs can be done perfectly well by monkeys. For some jobs it probably does make sense. That, by definition, cannot really be true. You
87 pvjin : Health is not something you should need to pay for, totally different from all the useless material stuff that you don't really need. In the US and c
88 BMI727 : Which means that some people pay far more than they get out of it and some people take far more than they put in. Tell that to people who continually
89 KiwiRob : You've got it all wrong there again, there are plenty of people in Norway who are self made and stinking rich. There are also plenty of stinking rich
90 RussianJet : Monkeys that you should want to work hard, do a good job, turn up, and not leave the job every five minutes so you have to hire more, be able to affo
91 KiwiRob : It's hard to bitch about the cost of living when you're living the good life, you'd be surprised but most people here don't really care that the cost
92 Post contains images WestJet747 : Many people don't drive, yet their tax dollars still pay for the DMV. Half of them know it's not free and only refer to it as "free" because they can
93 pvjin : As long as government offers even most unfortunate people enough money to buy food or directly offers them free food I have no problem with food bein
94 RomeoBravo : The minimum wage is probably the best ever example of forceful government policy having the completely opposite result of what it was intended to do.
95 Ken777 : Cute picture of poverty in the US. At least you recognize that it's a problem. As for education for many, you assume that everyone has IQ to be moder
96 StarAC17 : That statement explains why the North American and Euro economies are growing at a snail's pace while places like China, India, and Brazil are slowin
97 RomeoBravo : One must be careful to define what economic growth is. Economic growth is an increase in an economy's productivity, not an increase in the amount of
98 BMI727 : They just have to pay dearly for the privilege. Now you're getting it. The real solution is real growth and real prosperity, not rearranging the econ
99 Ken777 : The minimum wage in the US is so low that it cannot adversely impact any but the most incompetent business owners. THe proposed raise will basically
100 BMI727 : How much of the population do they make up? That is an issue because in the liberal economic narrative, people are stuck with such jobs and have no w
101 AeroWesty : Is that because you're still living with your parents while you suck up federal benefits for schooling? Never did find out how your job search went
102 flipdewaf : Lol, I'm sure that irony isn't lost on others here besides myself. Fred
103 pvjin : Wrong, we have plenty of rich people in here Finland too. If you truly deserve to be rich you will become rich even with a bit higher taxes. If all t
104 RomeoBravo : You're look at it the wrong way. Businesses want to maximise profit. They'll do this by organising labour and capital in the most efficient way they
105 BMI727 : Funny you should mention that. I did get an offer for a pretty decent job, but I turned it down because I didn't like the location. This was, in hind
106 pvjin : Nah, soldiers fight for "their" country because they either earn money/other benefits by doing so or in case of common conscription because they are
107 StarAC17 : I blame that on the decisions made my corporations in each country to move their production to places like China and India, places where the middle c
108 AeroWesty : After all that angst you put us through? At least you're honest about the mistake you made, but you really shouldn't be lecturing us on economics in
109 cmf : In the SAME way you quantify so many other things. Look at how ROI is quantified for guideline. Yet that is what the current what today's conservativ
110 BMI727 : All of that is still greed. Want steady pay or a free college education so you join the military? That's still greed. Want to not pay a fine or be im
111 AeroWesty : So your menial retail job pays more than $11 per hour?
112 BMI727 : Nope. But that doesn't guarantee that I wouldn't have to be cut because others have to be paid more. Plus much of what I pay for involves minimum wag
113 AeroWesty : If you can't see the inaccuracy in your previous statement, then there isn't anything you purvey on economic topics that can taken as relevant in rea
114 RomeoBravo : Its not the corporation's fault, they're just doing what's in their best interest like any rational person would. When the government make a high tax
115 Post contains images AeroWesty : Where are our manners? Welcome back to a.net, RomeoBravo.
116 Post contains images RomeoBravo : Thanks! I love a good heated political debate, so i think i'm going to enjoy this forum [Edited 2013-02-14 15:54:54]
117 BMI727 : All it takes is recognition of the fact that this isn't something that exists in isolation. Increasing minimum wage increases costs, unless of course
118 Post contains links PlanesNTrains : Interesting stats, regardless of where you stand on the issue: http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm I wonder who'd be in charge? Who's interests wil
119 AeroWesty : Let's see, going from $7.25/hr to $9.00/hr (for some reason I mistyped $11 in my earlier post) is an increase of almost 25%. Of course nothing works
120 AeroWesty : Go back to some of the election threads from last November, and that's exactly what he said he was prepared to do. Emphatically. Across a multitude o
121 BMI727 : I'm not sure that's the case. I don't think I changed colors when people go on about "personal growth" or how all their managers started out as hourl
122 Post contains links and images RomeoBravo : It really depends on the supply/demand curve how many people are made redundant. It's not just about that though. The whole point in wages (prices) is
123 AeroWesty : You're the one making the argument, so the burden is on you to provide those numbers to back up your assertions. What you're exposing is that the the
124 Post contains images WestJet747 : Be careful when comparing persons with mental disabilities to people who are just plain stupid. There's a big difference. I, too, believe cash is kin
125 Ken777 : More than you think. Remember that, by definition, half the population has an IQ under 100. So everything that doesn't meet your hard right standards
126 AeroWesty : You have to read my comments in context to all of the arguments he was making last November in relation to his education in aerospace engineering (I
127 PPVRA : There is not one aspect of minimum wage laws that actually yields a social positive. It's a very well understood problem, but it's too easy for people
128 BMI727 : I think I'm much better off paying less attention to jobs and more attention to just chasing the money. If I like doing something that much, I'll fin
129 Aesma : I think it's a good proposition, although he also mentioned a free trade agreement with the EU, so I'm guessing it's one chip to get that. I hope it f
130 warri1 : I ask, is this not how the system works? You make, we take, we pay. I do not remember any other way in this country, of course their is always barter
131 AeroWesty : The minimum wage was introduced in the U.S. in the 1930s in reaction to the proliferation of sweatshops, who employed mainly women and younger worker
132 warri1 : I wonder, did you read table 3 and below, about the share of wages from 1947 until ? It seems that the top have doubled their share in recent years,
133 StarAC17 : I never mentioned the government and ideally you don't want the government doing that job because I don't think that is their duty. What I am getting
134 warri1 : I applaud your common sense. You hit it right on the head. Exploitation is the name of the game, then as well as now. Imagine no laws at all to prote
135 StarAC17 : They are hated by a lot of people here but employee exploitation is the reason unions were created.
136 warri1 : As a union member for 42 years, and a member here for a few years, trust me, I know about union hatred. There is no question, you are absolutely corr
137 Pyrex : The price of gas at the pump is more dictated by gas taxes than distribution costs (the profit made by governments on a gallon of gas is higher than
138 warri1 : I suggest you ask the thousands of tellers laid off, forced into retirement, displaced because of them.
139 Geezer : You're trying to talk about 3 things at once; No one has said ANYTHING about "openly" carrying firearms; I don't just "think" Indiana has "the right"
140 Post contains links warri1 : http://t.money.msn.com/now/would-a-dollar9-minimum-wage-hurt-mcdonalds Here we go, whoa is me. Let the employee's collect food stamps, and welfare so
141 jpetekyxmd80 : Jesus. No. You completely miss the point. I'm not starting a gun argument, i'm not talking about gays and i'm hardly even talking about gas pumping.
142 Post contains links warri1 : http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...2914e4-d6f7-4e68-bf36-a3b4a0ef3df7 Is this an ultra liberal site also? I am sorry if it is. There seems to b e
143 AeroWesty : LOL!! What part of the ban on self-service gas is supported by both Republicans and Democrats did you miss? Unbelievable.
144 Skyservice_330 : For someone that b*tches and moans that non-Americans shouldn't participate in US political debates on this forum, you really should be more careful
145 Post contains images zkojq : That is because food is a commodity. Healthcare is not. Apart from anything else I have an interest in for-profit food as my parents own a beef farm.
146 KiwiRob : But they don't, the top tax rate here is 45%. Would be very funny and somewhat poetic if the one opportunity you turned down was your big opportunity
147 PlanesNTrains : As a manager, let me just say that we aren't [usually] that stupid. It's pretty easy to tell what kind of person you are after just a few hours or da
148 RomeoBravo : Slavery is exploitation. A voluntary offer to work in a sweatshop is not exploitation. Otherwise, people would't take the job - would you choose to b
149 AeroWesty : That's just crazy talk.
150 Aesma : Can someone provide examples of a country where their "free market extremism" work ? I seem to remember Milton Friedman advising several countries and
151 RomeoBravo : Can you back this statement up with a reasoned argument? If nobody's forcing anyone to do anything, they can't be being exploited, otherwise they wou
152 RomeoBravo : Really, Friedman had a great influence on Pinochet, Thatcher and Reagan and all 3 administration heavily prospered economically. Hong Kong, Singapore
153 Pellegrine : Minimum wage should be $12.00/hr or more. I'm educated in economics and I'm not about to have any lecture. That some people go unemployed is a given.
154 AeroWesty : Perhaps you don't understand the conditions of sweatshops in the 30s which helped prompt labor laws such as minimum wage and others. There's no need
155 RomeoBravo : Well, that's easy to say but it kind of is a big deal for the people who now can't get a job. A really big deal. It's also a big deal for the taxpaye
156 AY-MD11 : It's not so rosey here in Finland.. since 2007 the conservative government has been driving the public sector down with hard hand. Food,housing and ot
157 Post contains images cmf : Then why do you insist on it? Just you want it to be to the advantage of employees. Does it? What is the comparable purchase power vs rest of populat
158 Post contains links AeroWesty : I'll leave it here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploitative If you don't understand what exploitation is, sorry for you.
159 RomeoBravo : Yes there is, nobody is being forced to work in a sweatshop. It's very important to make the distinction between force (slavery) and voluntary action
160 Pellegrine : And how is this a significance for an American who is paid the minimum wage and still can't pay their way. They still require government assistance.
161 KiwiRob : If you've got no other choice then you are (kinda) forced into taking a job in sweatshop.
162 Pellegrine : And that is so incredibly sad. It is why governments in developed countries protect against this horrible possibility.
163 RomeoBravo : They probably don't require government assistance. You really can live off remarkably little if you get your priorities straight, and i'm sure it wou
164 AeroWesty : It's difficult to understand why someone would sign back up onto a.net simply to attempt wind-ups on non-aviation topics, but there you go, it happen
165 RomeoBravo : They really aren't wind ups. Disappointing that you can only resort to insults and not raise a logical argument really. If my arguments were so off-ba
166 Pyrex : Yes, of course. And computers cause unemployment, too, right? Think of all those typists that lost jobs. And what about those buggy whip manufacturer
167 AeroWesty : In the past presidential election, Romney won the majority of Oregon counties and 42.7% of the vote. Also see my comments in Reply #38 earlier.
168 Boeing717200 : Its not an issue of your gas costing anymore, its an issue of how much less would it be if you pumped it yourself. Self service vs. Full Service typi
169 windy95 : Hey the illegal aliens need a living wage when they are made legal citizens. Somebody has to pay for their living and healthcare.
170 pvjin : These illegal aliens work 10x harder than average American, let alone any Israeli who wastes years of his/her life in training to become better at ki
171 AeroWesty : As I stated in Reply #28, I only know of one true full service station in this area, and the price there is somewhat higher. All others have 'mini-se
172 Pellegrine : How right you are sir.....
173 Boeing717200 : It absolutely adds to the cost of gas. Just because they don't point it out to you by differentiating self serve from full serve doesn't mean the pre
174 AeroWesty : If you've actually read my posts, I don't claim that 'mini-serve' is a no-cost service. Only that it doesn't add an appreciable amount (even using th
175 KiwiRob : I can't comment on the Canadian system but I can on the NZ and Norwegian systems, I've torn the cartilage in my left knee twice, once in NZ and one i
176 BMI727 : Not really. Everyone has a favorite food. Many food components are commodities (can you tell the difference between a Florida orange and a California
177 Post contains links Ken777 : More than you think. Remember that, by definition, half the population has an IQ under 100. So everything that doesn't meet your hard right standards
178 MSPNWA : So Obama is advocating to raise the unemployment level. Doesn't that sound like a good idea? Interesting you bring up Oregon since I've pumped my own
179 Post contains images AeroWesty : Ahh, the third person this morning who hasn't read the thread! LOL As I've already stated earlier, yes, I recognize there's a cost, but not an apprec
180 Ken777 : And how many states in the US have a Sales Tax? Actually multiple sales taxes - state, county, & city/town. Far too many government regulations a
181 KiwiRob : So what VAT hits everyone rich and not so rich alike, if anything it's hitting the not so rich more than the super rich, again it's not punishing wea
182 Post contains images WestJet747 : I don't recall those claims, so I'll take it at face value. But the point remains, he can't be written-off simply for making what may appear to be ou
183 Post contains links BMI727 : Adding up to 25%? That's a rarity, I'm sure. Actually that's about the last place we should be going. This article, from the left leaning New York Ti
184 Post contains images AeroWesty : Yes, I hear that aerospace engineering is a required course for economic studies. At least you're giving it the ol' college try!
185 Pellegrine : The NYT is a very balanced and well researched paper, as your linked article shows. Only conservatives say it is left-leaning as if that were a bad t
186 Post contains images AeroWesty : I'm truly fascinated by the emphasis that conservatives use to qualify everything in terms of whether something (a person, an idea, a publication, et
187 Ken777 : Nope - around 10% in general terms. Other areas for generating tax revenues would be property taxes (which can be a very noticeable hit for the middl
188 BMI727 : I'm just pointing out that places other than Fox News can see where the real budget problems are coming from. Very simple: all that money that goes o
189 bhill : Interesting...BMI747 you working full time yet? And what was your filing status this year? Did you claim yourself on your 1040? Did you FILE a 1040?
190 Ken777 : Which is why the DoD is in line for some major changes. We need to get out of the war waging mentality. The only areas where those wars will need to
191 StarAC17 : It's more that just entitlements and even the right is hesitant to make any huge reforms especially to those receiving benefits now. There are more o
192 KiwiRob : Go out for diner in the US, catch a taxi, get a haircut and you have to tip which IMO isn't much different from a service tax.
193 Post contains links warri1 : http://t.money.msn.com/now/report-fa...ebook-paid-no-income-tax-last-year I guess this might also be interpreted as corporate welfare, it might also b
194 PPVRA : Such a law was passed in Brazil, too, for the same reasons. Typical third-world mentality. Never mind that the act of coercing the gas station owners
195 RomeoBravo : For someone who claims to be educated in economics, i'm surprised that you believe the government has money. Government can only realistically genera
196 MSPNWA : Well excuse me for not reading posts #4-#140 in their entirety. #3 interested me, so that's where I started. That cost has to be appreciable somewher
197 Kent350787 : As a social demoocrat in a social democratic country with low unemployment and liveable minimum wages I just have to shake my head at the USA whilst,
198 warri1 : That is amusing If 20K jobs are created, and the price of gasoline is comparable to pump your own states, what may I ask is the problem? If I was sta
199 warri1 : Good for you, good for Australia. We have a big divide all right, here everything is for the corporations, wealthy, the 1%. We live by the trickle do
200 Post contains images AeroWesty : For someone so focussed on efficiencies, one would think they'd apply that in every aspect, including not rearguing points which have already been ad
201 cmf : There is no choice. You're just trying to rationalize unreasonable actions. Again, rationalizing immoral behavior. It is similar to the terrorist mak
202 warri1 : I like your style, and line of reasoning. One more on my Respected list.
203 warri1 : I like a person who can cut through the fog on here. Another one for my respected list.
204 Post contains images warri1 : I apologize to you both if my adding you to my respected list, lowers your RR.
205 Ken777 : There are jobs that rely on customers tipping - and those jobs have some totally stupid wage - something like $2.75 an hour "wage" and all the tips y
206 RomeoBravo : It isn't immoral behaviour. Giving somebody an option which they can choose to take or leave is not immoral. What is immoral is saying to someone, no
207 Kent350787 : Or providing basic liveable wage which doesn't rely on tips, of course.
208 warri1 : In your line of reasoning, someone who is well aware that the job seeker is desperate and hungry, or has a family who maybe cold and hungry and who t
209 RomeoBravo : The initiation of force is immoral. Offering a job involves no force as the potential employee is free to decide to take that job or not. Saying to p
210 BMI727 : Actually just the opposite. It needs to be clear that just because there aren't as many troops actively fighting overseas does not mean that the War
211 Ken777 : On the other side of the coin, when very low poverty wages are paid then the government needs to step in with various benefits. That's an employer fo
212 RomeoBravo : It's certainly not the employer forcing government spending. It's actually the democratic majority forcing government spending. People who don't run
213 KiwiRob : That would be me, I'd far rather pay more for the food and know that the staff were being properly paid for their services than have to pay a tip, so
214 Post contains images StarAC17 : Australia has this right and keep doing what your doing . I would revise what you said from corporate welfare to paying welfare and food stamps to th
215 PlanesNTrains : I think there is far more to it than one country has it right and another has it wrong. There are a lot of things going on in the US that contribute
216 Kent350787 : More comments are more of bemusement. Your country has proven for decades that "trickle down" doesn't work, and has ever increasing income disparitie
217 pvjin : War on terror is mostly a failure and has managed to create only more hate towards the US. It should not be funded and at least half of the US milita
218 flipdewaf : Absolutely, Altruism really is very important and the survival of the fittest that capitalism is based around. Why is a soldiers altruism different f
219 cmf : Again, what you call an option isn't an option. So you make the argument that unemployment up to WWII was due to minimum wage... and keep calling a f
220 RomeoBravo : Yes it is, it might be an offer that no sane person would reject, but that just makes you forcing them to reject that offer so utterly absurd. Wasn't
221 Pu : . . How many Norwegian flags on the moon? Number of UN headquarters in Oslo? . . 1. The USA lacks the uniform cultural homogeneity of Norway and the
222 flipdewaf : You'd think wouldn't you? But a cursory glance into the history of self regulated industries shows this not to be the case and that money is the be a
223 RomeoBravo : Well there is a Norwegian flag on the South Pole... There is absolutely no point in using Norway as en example of anything, they sit on a sea of oil
224 KiwiRob : Who cares, the America that put a man on the moon was a different country than the America today, the US also pisses all over the UN and only uses it
225 flipdewaf : Strange, you seemed to have missed the point entirely. The facts of the matter are that people do not avoid danger on a rational and informed basis a
226 Darksnowynight : I have to agree. I'm probably not a liberal in the strictest sense of the word, but the black/white thinking that are the effective limits of conserv
227 RomeoBravo : Sorry but i don't know a lot about the early history of UK rail safety hence that point was not obvious to me. I don't believe humans are incapable o
228 Post contains images cmf : You got it wrong, no-one is being forced to reject an offer. What it does is to make sure that one side isn't abusing their position to make unreason
229 flipdewaf : Hence why it was just an but I'm sure your large knowledge of examples on the matter should be ample enough to continue arguing your point as I'm sur
230 Ken777 : So the democratic majority wrote and ratified the Constitution & Amendments. That is where the core force of government spending comes from. And
231 BMI727 : The fallacy is assuming that now that we're basically out of Iraq and we killed Bin Laden that defense policy and spending can basically go back to w
232 WestJet747 : Any news source that leans in either direction is bad thing unless they openly admit it. The NYT operates under a guise of balanced reporting, yet th
233 pvjin : Maybe Al Qaeda, but that's just one group, and not even particularly well organized one. I'm sure Taliban and other similar groups in area are gainin
234 Ken777 : Our military was not a wimp before 9/11. Take a look at the carrier groups if you want one indication. There is no reason why we cannot go back to th
235 KiwiRob : I'd consider that theft of my funds. I have no problem being called a bum. If you don't fight the system how are you ever going to change the system?
236 BMI727 : Terrorist groups do come and go. In the future we need to be vigilant and proactive enough to make sure it doesn't take another 9/11 to get governmen
237 WarRI1 : I guess that Liberal people such as myself who have a deep morality imbedded cannot so easily separate morality and immorality. I treat all in a mora
238 WarRI1 : I do not like the system anymore than you. It is what it is. I cannot in all conscience not leave a tip for the underpaid. Of course once again, a mo
239 WarRI1 : These are working people, who work for a living. I cannot argue against your other points about our troubles in this country. What is the mantra of t
240 Post contains images Ken777 : Since you probably don't encounter places to eat where wages are less than $3 an hour tipping isn't necessary. When I was in Australia on business I
241 BMI727 : There's never a guarantee that you can avoid a terrorist attack. Sometimes guys really do just come out of the woodwork, and a lone wolf type attack
242 RomeoBravo : Yes Thank God our precious caring government is there to ensure something ridiculous like let's say, Horse, doesn't surreptitiously enter the food ch
243 Post contains links zhiao : They don't earn more at all: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ountries_by_average_wage#section_1 In fact Norway isnt even in top 5. And your co
244 RussianJet : Those figures are clearly bunk. To suggest UK average wages are higher than Norway's is just ridiculous. You've obviously taken them at face value, b
245 Darksnowynight : And I think bailing GM out was the wrong answer. Personally, I'm not impressed that they've paid their loans back. There's no question their pre-bk l
246 BMI727 : Isn't that exactly what a minimum wage does for some people? You show up, and you get paid minimum wage whether or not you provide commensurate value
247 zhiao : @RussianJet, What's your point? The wording that you quote suggests that the list is the most inclusive because it includes all jobs, and not just lim
248 RussianJet : The problem I have is that I have been Norway plenty, and been to a host of other European countries which feature on your list, and having lived in
249 PlanesNTrains : Your comments are fine. However, you chose my concluding sentence to reply to even though my broader point was that our two nations have unique circu
250 KiwiRob : Nor mine either, having lived in both the UK and Norway they are not in the same league.
251 RussianJet : My brother lives in Norway, he wouldn't move back to the UK if you paid him a million pounds to do so. The standard of living is just too good, most
252 RomeoBravo : I'm sure wages are higher in the Norway than the UK but i'm not sure the purchasing power necessarily is, as everything is so damn expensive over the
253 KiwiRob : I'll give you food, cars and housing but everything else is pretty much on par with anywhere else in Europe, electronics aren't any more expensive th
254 RomeoBravo : How often do electronics and high end watches appear in your weekly commodity basket though? They likely will be cheap as most are probably important
255 pvjin : There would be no need to do that if US hadn't been interfering with business of other countries at the first place. Actions of US governments after
256 WestJet747 : Better overall? Yes. But when it comes to pretending to being completely unbiased, you're either guilty or you're not, and they're both guilty. Even
257 BMI727 : If I got an offer I'd listen. Paying a lot of money is the incentive you have to have in order to get those jobs filled. If driving a truck in Mosul
258 zhiao : Remember it's a mean not a median. In median terms I am sure UK is lower. But because UK has many more rich people the avg is higher. Edit, I looked
259 Ken777 : Clinton's Defense Force was more than adequate to avoid "the big one". We don't need the expanded Defense that was enlarged for the FUBARs & SNAF
260 BMI727 : Knocking out Sadaam's forces was pretty clean for the most part. It was controlling the country against the terrorists and insurgents that got messy
261 Ken777 : Except for the FUBARs of moving a force too fast, with critical support not keeping up the pace. That was boots on the ground doing the work without
262 DeltaMD90 : The days of guided ordnance have long replaced BBs. The guns on our DDGs and CGs are sufficient enough to augment our guided missiles
263 Ken777 : I saw ammunition pier side in Subic Bay - ready for the New Jersey. Those projectiles were huge. While guided ordnance might be available I have a ha
264 pvjin : Whateva, I don't see how world could be any more messed up than it already is. At least we would have cheap vodka and some real solidarity around ins
265 DeltaMD90 : Don't get me wrong, there is and will be a need for unguided bombardment... I just think (and the Navy thinks, it seems) that cruisers' and destroyer
266 WarRI1 : If I have ever been served that badly, I cannot remember it. It may have happened many years ago. I do know one thing, I never piss off cooks and ser
267 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.minimum-wage.org/rhode-island-tipped-employee-minimum-wage In my state, probably in others, servers are not paid the minimum wage the way o
268 BMI727 : They are. ...and dumb. In 1930 sure. Now they are too big, too expensive, and not useful enough for what the modern Navy needs to do. Add Communism a
269 Ken777 : They are making under $3 an hour, plus what ever tips they may receive. I generally pay around 20% - more in some situations, especially where we are
270 DeltaMD90 : I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... I don't really see what a bunch of big, unguided guns will do that smaller unguided or more importantly, g
271 WarRI1 : I understand, that there are problem employees. I also know there are problem owners and managers. I go to a coffee, (National Chain) shop on a regul
272 pvjin : Nah. Under communism people would be poorer which would mean less consumption. Less consumption would mean less mass industry, and that would ultimat
273 BMI727 : Mass suicide would be good for the environment too. Sound good? Unless you want to, you know, not be miserable. And frankly, screw humankind. I want
274 Darksnowynight : And that just goes back to why Living Wages are essential if we're interested in not being a third world country. This place you mention is not an ex
275 Ken777 : Dumb costs a lot less to acquire per round. Amazing that those 80 year old BBs managed to deliver those rounds with mechanical guidance on the ships.
276 PlanesNTrains : I respect your opinion, but personally I have never figured out how to separate my faith from how I make my life choices. I know others find it easy.
277 pvjin : Sure good for the environment but that's too harsh. What about trying to live in harmony with the environment? Though now when I think about it big m
278 WarRI1 : I could not agree more, people will screw over people, it seems the human way. We need rules to control the human way. Is that not what civilized us?
279 RomeoBravo : More likely there would be less innovation, resulting in less efficiency and more pollution, or the standard of living could improve so much in a cap
280 Darksnowynight : That it will. But with extensive regulation in place for social and environmental reasons, it can be made to work. Raising standards of living for th
281 BMI727 : But it would cost more to have the ships to fire them. Not to mention that the consequences for inaccuracy are probably higher than ever now. I'm not
282 Post contains images WestJet747 : I need to figure out what restaurants you're going to. I receive bad service quite frequently, and I'm not even a demanding customer. That's one thin
283 WarRI1 : I like Capitalism with a kind face. I made a good living in my time, still do on my savings and SS, and Medicare benefits. I try to reply in kind. I
284 AeroWesty : I haven't taken anything you've said seriously since your rabble-rouse about sweatshops not being exploitative, to be honest.
285 RussianJet : Thank God. Someone with a sensible, moral view of capitalism. So much nicer than the hyper-selfish 'me, me, me and sod the others' sort of attitude p
286 WarRI1 : I'll just bet that a ton of servers in the US would like the Australian system. It will never happen here unfortunately. I do not know how long ago y
287 RomeoBravo : I shall repeat the economic realities. If you ban people from earning below a certain wage, it means people who can't earn at or above the certain wa
288 WarRI1 : I would ask, have you heard of Bernie Madoff in the US? Also the inventor of the Ponzi scheme and many others. They are also motivated by personal ga
289 RussianJet : To an extent. In terms of taxes etc, yes. In terms of wages, working conditions etc, far from always.
290 RomeoBravo : What do you mean in terms of taxes? Taxes put the breaks on capitalism and are rarely spent on boosting it, thus they put the breaks on improving peo
291 WarRI1 : I think you would be on more solid ground if you reconsidered your statement about Sweat Shops. They were the epitome of exploitative. Still are. Loo
292 RomeoBravo : If i am not forcing you to do anything how am i exploiting you? And if you choose to take my offer because it is improving your life, again, how is t
293 RussianJet : Generally the more you earn the more you pay, and the taxes go to help everybody through infrastructure, welfare, healthcare, etc.
294 Ken777 : It really won't force that big a change in most companies - maybe a 5¢ increase in a Happy Meal. That shouldn't sadden you that much. Compare that t
295 RomeoBravo : You are just demonstrating that you are of the mindset that companies are cows there to be milked and not the core satisfier of human demands. Compan
296 cmf : Correct, your argument didn't support your claim. Yet you are arguing for removing their freedom. You are making them serfs. If the bank sells it at
297 RussianJet : Not at all. Taxes are a necessary evil, and it is only logical that the more money is earned the more tax is paid. Even if you declared the same tax
298 WarRI1 : I can give you a link covering this I am sure. To make it simple, a parent needs money, so they send their 10 year old son or daughter to work in a s
299 RussianJet : I'm astonished that you really actually have to explain this. It's really doesn't require much imagination or intelligence to understand how certain
300 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.luc.edu/faculty/rmayer/mayer23.pdf I hope this link works. Notice the term Exploitation.
301 WarRI1 : I am also. It astounds me at times.
302 AeroWesty : I am as well! (But then equally astounding is carrying the point of view that someone who won't engage against a ridiculous argument is somehow evide
303 WarRI1 : There are some hard positions on here. I think we agree that all we are advocating is that humans should be treated as humans, not to be exploited, n
304 AeroWesty : Absolutely agreed. There is no harm to society as a whole created by setting reasonable minimum standards of living and safety in exchange for an hon
305 BMI727 : The desire for multirole ships in a multirole navy is part of why we don't have battleships today. Only if it's somewhere naval guns can reach. Not t
306 Post contains links Ken777 : Actually Apple is one of the leaders in auditing their suppliers' factories for safety and pay. Apple is known to pay more for work on the condition
307 Darksnowynight : Nobody's going to outsource jobs over this. Outsourcing occurs for jobs that pay a good deal more than minimum wage. It makes no economic sense whats
308 Post contains links jetblueguy22 : This thread has gotten quite long. Please continue the discussion here Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Way Part 2 (by jetblueguy22 Feb 17 2013 in Non Avi
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