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Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

In last nights speech, Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour. I for one think this is a huge mistake was a lot of small businesses could not afford to do this, and be forced to reduce headcount leading to more unemployment making matters worse.

I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

308 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

He doesn't know economics 101 of capitalism and the free market economy. There will ALWAYS be some unemployment (though it can get down to the 3-4% range) and you can raise the minimum wage all you want, but prices will just go up to compensate for it. There will ALWAYS be people at the bottom. Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.


"Head knocking against the wall" with these asinine policies.



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4342 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

Great utopian theory. There was a time not that long ago when it was like that. It wasn't fun.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

If you can't pay enough to provide reasonable living you should not be in business. All you are doing is dragging everyone down.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Of course he does. It's a main goal of his party to see the min wage rise. Don't see it happening, however.


So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas.

Same here in New Jersey, and our prices are cheaper than all but four States in the Nation.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6575 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4293 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
minimum wage to $9.00 per hour.

There are some GOP states whose minimum wage is higher than the federal one.

www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Interesting map - really...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinevenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

He can raise the minimum all he wants. All it will do is make the employers pass on costs to the consumer, lower his payroll and cut hours to the remaining employees especially if is a major corporation like McDonald's or and other chain store that answers to shareholders and not their employees and customers. It seems every time Washington opens its mouth about business the ranks of the part time and unemployed rise. It will be a harder in the future to find full time entry level work.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

I never gave a thought to minimum wage in the US until seeing this thread and I'm surprised how low it is! Here it is $10.25, and nobody is shutting their doors because the raises.

But with that said, Obama isn't solving the underlying problem. The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees. Raising minimum wage to $9 won't have a positive impact (nor will it have a disastrous effect that some people are suggesting).

Also, Boehner needs to crack a smile once in a while. I've never seen a more sour-faced man in my life than I did during the SOTU last night. Can't be good for his health to be so pissed off all the time. Perhaps a few less trips to the tanning salon would help as well... 
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I generally promote a total free market economy, but in this instance we would have to tread incredibly lightly.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas
Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Same here in New Jersey

That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!



Flying refined.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4236 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees

  
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinehOmsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4212 times:

The "minimum wage" was never intended to be a living wage, perhaps. But these days, when Wal Mart is the biggest employer in some towns and entire families' wages are dependent on what essentially amount to minimum-wage jobs, the minimum wage has become the de facto living wage for these people.

We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

Nowadays, the jobs that sustained the middle class are leaving (and have been for a few decades now). The only jobs left for lots of people are these minimum-wage jobs.

It completely sucks, but that's the way it is. Unless and until this fact changes, then you can't keep treating the minimum wage as if it's just for part-time college students looking for extra spending money.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!

Jobs is the usual reason given these days, but Oregon law actually codifies 17 separate reasons for banning self-dispensing of gasoline in the state:

480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

(1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

(2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

(3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

(4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon’s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

(5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or has a disability, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

(6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and persons with disabilities in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and persons with disabilities must pay the higher costs of full service;

(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

(8) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

(9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

(10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:
(a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;
(b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or have disabilities who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices; and
(c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

(11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

(12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

(13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

(14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

(15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to persons with disabilities, elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

(16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to persons with disabilities at retail gasoline stations; and

(17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster

Together, they are an added cost of doing business. The reality is, doing business requires making money, and most business owners are pretty smart people. You can only raise your prices so much in this economy before demand begins to fall, so you have to balance price increases with other measures. In the case of labor, you are going to mitigate the increases by reducing hours, gaining efficiencies, and avoiding added burdens such as ObamaCare.

The end result will be a lot more people working, but a lot less of them working full-time.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?

1. Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon. Oregon is at 30 cents, so even adding in the cost of labor for pumping it might still come out a wash. There are also many people in Washington who work in Portland and who probably will fuel up there if it's a nickel a gallon less.

2. You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative. If McDonald's raises the price of a Big Mac, Kohl's raises the price of underwear, or Starbucks raises the price of coffee, I have options. But I can't get gas from Joe's Espresso, Fuel, and Towing without paying all of the same things that Chevron charges.

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

And that says as much about the rising cost of college as it does about the need for a rise in the minimum wage.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4186 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Not enough right wingers understand that it is what many companies pay full time employees.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

It's an unnecessary cost. It is the same thing as mailing welfare checks to those same guys. You say you don't notice the cost of that. Okay. But it's there. The reality is, you are paying a tax and receiving nothing of value for it. The model is NOT promising.

Edit: Just want to add, my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics. When government makes these decisions for us, the decisions aren't very good. Investment in useful activities that improves people's lives goes down. Motivation to succeed goes down. Society ends up without a business sector -- meaning, people do nothing you'd be willing to pay them for.

[Edited 2013-02-13 09:29:09]

User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4185 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees


Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Oh well .. in that case, let's just put things back in there proper place shall we...

...women were meant to stay at home, not taking up a job that man could have.

And none of this, working two jobs to make ends meet..one job will do.
That job not paying enough to make ends meet??? Too bad for you, keep looking ...because this
..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour ...

Is out there for you somewhere... but wait..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
...and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.

...oh then never mind, that's just not going to do you any good, is it?


That's what it was 'meant to be' is an acceptable answer??? Society 30 years ago was meant to be something else too and guess what it's completely different 30 years later - meaning, times have changed, good lord!

If only common sense stood a chance against insanity..

How is it that some seriously twisted mindsets have no problem with fuel prices rising exponentially (because the oil companies MUST maintain profit levels), distribution cost continually on the increase, warehousing cost must rise along with the steady climb of production cost resulting in inflated rates and prices for virtually everything sold...but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3053 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4179 times:

While I will agree with many that the minimum wage is not something that should be treated as the wage for living, keep in mind something that the OP conveniently left out:

Quote:
In fact, working folks shouldn’t have to wait year after year for the minimum wage to go up while CEO pay has never been higher. So here’s an idea that Governor Romney and I actually agreed on last year: let’s tie the minimum wage to the cost of living, so that it finally becomes a wage you can live on.

Notice the two bold areas:
1) If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

2) Of course, if a President Romney had said this, then perhaps this thread would be nonexistent or in support of the policy.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

If we did this, then unemployment would certainly drop but wages would be a fraction of what they are now. If a free market decides the minimum wage, I'll bet you anything that a board of directors locked up in a building would decide to keep the wages low and split the profits among themselves. Free market supporters give too much credit to the integrity of big executives. We were told to give millionaires a tax rate so that they create jobs. It's been 10 years since the Bush tax cuts were enacted. Where did employment go?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

People making $7 now seeking $9 now will be either losing their job or getting $9... at the expense of the poor guy or gal who was laid off. Most likely, robotics will see a boost, further reducing the need for low skill workers.

It's just not a solution that helps ANY group of people. The $7 group overall will not be helped. Certain individuals will be... and others will be hurt.

If people are unwilling to work for under $16, let them quit! Nobody is forcing them to work. Or they can apply for a $16/hr job with the necessary skills. Plenty of Wal Mart employees make $16/hr and much, much more.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon.

Offset by higher other taxes, such as income and higher property taxes in Oregon. WA has a sales tax to cover what OR collects via other means. CA gas taxes are about on par with WA. Regardless, the difference in pricing just on a direct tax basis is barely $1-$1.50 per fill-up.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative.

Sure there is, you can always drive less, buy at a more competitively priced station, get a more economical car ...



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

I have to wonder if this proposal is Obama's way of compensating those that will be going to part time next year when Obummercare take effect and companies scramble to get under the 50 full time employee limit.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4141 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

Yes, I know..I'm above that. But that's not point.

My point is this..

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):
If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

$100 an hour is certainly a far cry from 'reasonable minimum wage'.. but what the Prez was proposing, $11 I believe seems very reasonable in the face of what's been going on in this country. The rest of the developing nations has CEO average pay at 10-12 x ratio vs that of the average worker...in America it's 35X and more. And the disparity shows no sign of letting up.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4138 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics.

A Federal Minimum Wage is not equal to a planned economy. The minimum wage could be $5 or $10, and it will still be business owners, not the gov't, who decide on what jobs to hire people to fill, their expected productivity, and what benefits to offer.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4121 times:

I was ascertaining a point by using the "$100/Hr". If it goes to $11, $15 or whatever doesn't matter. Prices will rise and those making the minimum wage will still be at the bottom scraping by. If you aren't happy making that pay, educate yourself and find a higher paying position.

Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.



Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4156 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

Considering how many slave owners were among them ...

(Not every analogy stands the test of time.)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4152 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

..exactly, as their slaves were making them rich...

Concept of minimum wage making sense yet, or are you still advocating everyone just become CEOs and be happy?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinehOmsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4203 times:

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
educate yourself and find a higher paying position.

Of course, how easy that is.

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

As noted, education expenses have skyrocketed, and even college graduates and other well-educated people have been struggling to find jobs.

Of course, as economics teaches us, the more supply of "educated" people in the labor market, the lower the wages for the "higher-paying positions" will be over time. You'll still have more people competing for relatively few jobs. Which means some folks are going to wind up without jobs, or with jobs much lower than their abilities.

This actually happened a few years ago. There were anecdotes (granted, just anecdotes, I don't have full data right now) of well-educated folks who had good-paying jobs and lost those jobs when the economy tanked. Some were so desperate that they went looking for any low-paying job they could find. I guess the real answer was that they should just go educate themselves some more, and then they could find a better job, right?



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21557 posts, RR: 55
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4194 times:

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
It completely sucks, but that's the way it is. Unless and until this fact changes, then you can't keep treating the minimum wage as if it's just for part-time college students looking for extra spending money.

That's true, but I'm still not sold on the idea that you should be above the poverty line on a minimum wage job. But one thing that we should definitely do is tie the minimum wage to inflation or the cost of living.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4180 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!

Safety.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4132 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Thanks for posting AeroWesty.

You're welcome!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

So then why don't the station attendants wear masks if they're around it all day?

Hey now, you're dealing with a service that's almost an institution now. Who says it has to be logical? 

I will say this though, once you get used to having your gas pumped for you, it's a rather nice little luxury. Almost all of it is "mini-serv" though, so you don't get your oil and air checked, etc. I only know of one real full-service gas station, but not a single one where they still do car repairs like the olden days.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

I would also love to see more taxes for the rich, progressive taxing is awesome. Nobody should have need to earn more than a couple of millions of dollars.

Then you need only free universities and proper healthcare system available to everyone and paid by the government, then you could enjoy the welfare and life quality we have in here Europe.   

And don't worry about what it costs, just raise taxes and cut from completely useless military spending. Nobody is going to attack you anyway.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4098 times:
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Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

  

Amazing to see the level of fear created by the prospect of not being able to just leech off the super-low-paid.

One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them. Don't let that ruin your anti-socialist, Obama's a communist scare stories though. After all, it's wonderful entertainment.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

Great generalization there. I'm actually a student, I've made only minimum wage, and for some people it is definitely overpaying them.

And while you are soooooo certain that you're going to get that great education, and make 'all the right choices' then secure that great paying job and fly off into Donald Trump orbit...

I just wish you could have 'a shelter lunch' with former (now homeless) pilots, people with masters degrees in all sorts of occupations who lost their homes and everything else they own thru corporate mismanagement, buyouts, downsizing, mergers and acquisitions and anything else I'm missing.

As a student, I'm not trying to spook you.. but the biggest mistake most young people make is 'that can't happen to me..' ... those people who lost everything, thought that too. Just look around.

How many pilots are moonlighting to care for their families? how many cops take on security jobs at supplement income..it just goes on and on.

One thing is for certain.. either wages remain exceptionally low vs skyhigh CEO pay with no limit in sight will yield extraordinary large poor class than today or a higher minimum wage and closer to commensurate CEO salaries* - leads to a more sustained middle class keeping the poor class numbers from spiraling out of control.

* by that I mean, the man or woman who builds up his own business should be able to pay himself as much as he or she wants or thinks to be fair.

Versus a Ivy Legacy stepping to a public traded company like AA or GM... well 'he did not build' that.. he's just a place holder - cap those dudes because their arrival was anticipated since their days as a freshman at Whatever U.



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
Well up here it is customary to tip the station attendant who pumps your gas (and often will do your windows). Do you guys still tip them then?

Not at each visit. The kids at my local Texaco usually work while they're attending school, so they aren't too transient. One guy is on his third year now, I think it is. I give them GCs at Christmas—nothing more than $20 for iTunes or something.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4201 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Not enough right wingers understand that it is what many companies pay full time employees.

I did not realize how little the wages are in the States. I certainly don't pay my employee that little. I should evaluate their compensation, although they do have to live. I might add that she also gets benefits on top of her salary.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3860 times:

http://www.epi.org/publication/state...e_declining_value_of_minimum_wage/


How fair is this? I agree with Obama, people are getting screwed here. An old practice in this world. Exploitation of the workers.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Jobs is the usual reason given these days, but Oregon law actually codifies 17 separate reasons for banning self-dispensing of gasoline in the state:

Now that we know what the "law" relative to pumping gasoline in the state of Oregon is.....let me ask you this;
Do you have ANY credible statistics showing that there are any fewer fires started while cars are being "gassed up" in Oregon, than in any OTHER state ?

In addition.......while I am very aware of the inherent, potential dangers involved in pumping gasoline, I'm also just as aware of the potential dangers involved in DRIVING all those cars, once they are "fueled up"; so are the liberal law-makers in Oregon going to "pass a law" requiring that everyone MUST have their cars driven by some "professional driver", (who MUST be paid at least $11 per hour ?)

Also.......do you have any credible statistics showing that "Oregonions" have any better driving records than do drivers in any other state ?

I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S., OTHER than Oregon; I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon; so when I go to Seattle the next time, I'll just travel I-90 across Idaho and into Washington State, and just "pretend" that Oregon doesn't exist !


As for New Jersey.......I haven't been there since 1997, but unless there have been an awful lot of changes made since then........you'll have to show me documented PROOF that N.J. has a law against people pumping their own gas !
Let's face it; are "average" Americans too stupid, too ignorant, too careless, too irresponsible to pump their own gasoline ? To start with, there is NO such thing as an "average American"; and yes, a very large % of Americans definitely ARE too stupid, ignorant, careless, and irresponsible to pump their own gas, and a great many of them are also too (all of the preceding), to drive their own vehicles safely, also. ( just a glance at national MV statistics will PROVE that once and for all.)

But back to Oregon for a minute; Have the liberal pin-heads in the Oregon State Legislature ever taken the trouble to give 17 different reasons why they think THEY are so much smarter than the pin-heads in the other 49 State Legislatures ?

I'm sure glad I found out about this ridiculous law when I did ! I was thinking about going through California, and up I-5 clear through Oregon; now I'll just avoid both of them ! ( I sure wouldn't want to take a chance on "running into" Nancy Pelosi or Diane Feinstein while I'm "passing through" the state !)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):

I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S., OTHER than Oregon; I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon; so when I go to Seattle the next time, I'll just travel I-90 across Idaho and into Washington State, and just "pretend" that Oregon doesn't exist !

And oral sex is illegal in Indiana. Do you think have the patent on 'freedom' or immunity from stupid or archaic laws? I'm sure Oregon will really miss you.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinehOmsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

That little detail gets overlooked quite often by folks who don't think it's worth it for poor folks to earn more money.

Now, all that said, one thing I'd definitely like to see is the elimination of the exception to the minimum wage for waiters/waitresses at restaurants. Their minimum wage is considerably lower because it's assumed they'll be earning tips (so, basically, not only are the customers paying the restaurant for food, we're paying their employees' salaries too).



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
Do you have ANY credible statistics showing that there are any fewer fires started while cars are being "gassed up" in Oregon, than in any OTHER state ?

Why should I care? Gas doesn't cost any more here than anywhere else.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
Also.......do you have any credible statistics showing that "Oregonions" have any better driving records than do drivers in any other state ?

What on earth could that possibly have to do with anything?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
But back to Oregon for a minute; Have the liberal pin-heads in the Oregon State Legislature ever taken the trouble to give 17 different reasons why they think THEY are so much smarter than the pin-heads in the other 49 State Legislatures ?

Okay, now you've really lost the plot and totally blown your credibility. Outside of the metro areas of Portland/Salem/Eugene, Oregon is a HUGELY rural, red/conservative state. Banning self-serve gas has full bipartisan support. Even though the current legislature is held by a slight Democratic margin, that's not always been the case. Even our record of governors is split nearly down the middle half and half between parties, and our US senators have more often been Republican than Democrats.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1865 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3730 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

In last nights speech, Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour. I for one think this is a huge mistake was a lot of small businesses could not afford to do this, and be forced to reduce headcount leading to more unemployment making matters worse.

The number 1 employer of minimum wage employees are fast food and big box stores. Most small business pay more than minimum wage for retention purposes. Also by raising the minimum wage you raise the disposable income of people which will in turn increase demand and help the economy.



The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon

Hard to believe you've ever set foot in Oregon. You must not have been very observant. That's been the law for 60+years.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S.

LOL. Just because you didn't know about something doesn't mean it didn't exist. Yes, imagine the massive bloodletting of population Oregon will suffer at the hands of the indignity of sitting in your car to get gas for the same price. The horror. Get over yourself..



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 37):
Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

That very notion is SO lost on conservatives (even poor conservatives in the Red States who consistently vote against their own interest because they;d rather do that than vote for the black dude) talk about about ironic.

But exactly right, the poor or minimum wage people spend every cent they get in and wait to the same to the week around. It goes for food, utility bills, buses, gas (if they have a car), rent and yes,righties drugs - just like you guyswho smoke weed, do meth or 'legal drugs'. But they spend every single cent back into the economy - they DO NOT save. They can not afford it.

Do think it adds up?

Look at how Obama outspend McCain 5-1 in their race and it was done with nickel and dime low-dollar donations. But all their low wage and benfit money goes to one place - into the economy, not stocks, investments, 401s or any of that ...they collectively inject more cash back into the economy more so than those that sphincter out every penny after weeks of consideration. and the wealthy who sends out a servant to load up at Costco every other month.

More of them do the jobs many of you find beneath you and jobs you'd dare not be seen at. And no question (aside from the DMV ppl [but that's gov't employment not private]) fewer of them slack off at the water cooler than none mini-workers - of which more and more are morphing into WFHs - working from home.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6177 posts, RR: 30
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3705 times:
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Obama should do well to learn from Latin America in the 70s.

Raising the minimum wage by decree is a wash. The employers just pass the cost on to the customers. Doing that once in a while, for election purposes for example, is harmless.

The dangerous part is to index it to inflation or the cost of living. That just creates an uncontainable, self-reinforcing monster that just generates more inflation, which generates increases in the minimum wage that generates more inflation etc. etc. etc and ad nauseaum.

It´s a big mistake.



MGGS
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 37):

Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

DINGDINGDING We have a winner. Give an extra $20 to one of the working-poor and it will be spent (put back into the economy), give an extra $20 to someone higher up the wage scale and it is most likely going to be put into a savings account and not re-enter the economy for a good while. As it happens, The Economist agrees with me to some degree:
http://www.economist.com/news/financ...inimum-wages-can-do-more-good-harm

Obviously, the above theory has its limits as the effect a wage floor change has on an economy will depend on the margin by which the wage floor was changed.


Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Don't let that ruin your anti-socialist, Obama's a communist scare stories though. After all, it's wonderful entertainment.

   It certainly is. Kinda sad actually that some people here seem to be advocating some kind of serfdom.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them.

   Another good point. When you pay the minimum wage you generally get the minimum wage attitude and skillset that comes with that, even if the employee has a higher skill-set than their wage would suggest.


Anyway, thats just my   



Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour.

Some people get a raise. Others won't.

That extra money is going to have to come from somewhere.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses?

Doesn't matter. They signed a deal that says he does.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

For the same reason your salary doesn't get deposited into my checking account: it isn't their money.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 29):
Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards. Enforcing mediocrity leads nowhere. It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich. It is, however, possible to have one where nobody is rich.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Amazing to see the level of fear created by the prospect of not being able to just leech off the super-low-paid.

It's exceptionally scary to see how giddy many people are at the prospect of getting their hands on some of the money controlled by millionaires. Liberals love to spew crap about how "they didn't build it" and they owe us something for some reason, but the truth of it is that liberals want to tax the rich for the same reason that John Dillinger robbed banks: that's where the money is.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them.

Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 39):
The number 1 employer of minimum wage employees are fast food and big box stores.

...which are patronized by lower and middle class people. There isn't going to be a net flow of money to the poor from increasing minimum wage. People working at Neiman Marcus aren't making minimum wage, it's the Walmart employees making minimum wage.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
Obama should do well to learn from Latin America in the 70s.

I agree. Let's start exporting cocaine.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

I agree with your viewpoint completely, Joe, but I would point out one additional thing; Obama's "un-affordable" Health Care law is doing that ALREADY ! And while we're at it, I'll point out something else it's doing, (or very SOON will be doing); it's going to put a VERY big SCREW into the very "individuals" who voted for him ! I have a very good friend; he's self employed, and does very well for himself; he's also a HUGE obama supporter; thanks to the un=affordable HC "act", his health insurance is very soon about to MORE than double ! Also.....he has a 40 year old son, who is "supposed" to be a "near genius" he's "so smart"; just after Christmas, I was talking with my friend, asking him "how everything is", now that the holidays are behind us; his answer was classic ! Quote: "Well, now that all of our out-of-town guests have gone home.........we're STILL "stuck" with one"; ME; "Let me guess.........your eldest, genius son, Christopher, ?"
Mike; "uh, well...yeah";

Hey....I'm no "psychic" .......I can't tell you what number will win next week's "Power Ball" drawing; but I CAN tell you how to "avoid" having 40 yr old "genius" offspring "lean on you for support" because it's soooooooo, much "trouble" working all the time ! You point to the front door......and say "don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out"!

Or......there's even a MUCH better way; starting when they are about 6 yrs old, you teach them a little "something" every day; by the time they start high school, if your "teaching" was on the money, they will already be headed in the "right direction". My oldest son told me one day when he was about 15 or 16 yrs old, "I'm going to be an electrical engineer"; ( I don't remember what I said, only what I was thinking); ( yeah, sure you are) When he graduated HS, he applied for and was accepted in University of Cincinnati's 5 yr co-op program; 6 months college, 6 months at a company; (he co-oped at Texas Instruments, in Houston) after 5 yrs of back and forth between Cincinnati and Texas, he graduated with a BS in EE; had offers from Kodak, IBM, and Motorola, in Chandler, AZ. He spent the next 4 years living in Chandler, AZ. While he was with Motortola, he spent much of his time working on a contract that Motorola had with the Navy in California; after a year or two, the Navy made him an offer, (which he didn't refuse); after about 10 yrs, (and quite a few nights), he got his PhD. (and he's still just "as smart" as he always was).

I think my friend Mike's son is possibly just as smart as my kid is; (but "smart" is almost impossible to accurately measure) I'm more inclined to be impressed by results; I haven't had to give my kid anything since he was running back and forth to Houston every six months; (I did give him a van to move his junk back and forth) ( he's in his early 50's now, so I think he'll probably "make it").

So...........what does all that have to do with "minimum wage" you ask ? Just this; some people go out and make it on their own; about 25 times as many sit around on their butts, crying about how "unfair" the cruel world IS; Where do you suppose they ever heard that ?

If you are really serious about wanting to really understand "minimum wage", just look up Dr. Milton Friedman's classic work on the subject; he says it better than any one else ever has, or ever will.

I'll make a prediction right now; NO ONE will read what Milton Friedman wrote; what many WILL do, is that will "show that old fool" how ignorant HE is, and how "smart" THEY are !

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 43):
But you forget that raising minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

See what I mean ? So the "Gubmint" should GUARANTEE all people who have the "greatest need" X amout of $$ per hour, based on their "need" ? Looking at it through YOUR rose colored glasses, why not just pass a law saying ALL young people, (who OBVIOUSLY have a LOT of NEED), should be paid $100,000 per year; (and maybe we should only require them to work about 24 hours a week ); that way, they can have more "fun", and maybe even have more "self esteem" ! I'm sure if we put it to a vote, they will DEFINITELY ALL voted for it ! There's only one problem; (and if you need me to point it out, you're dumber than I give you credit for, and I don't even want to waste any more time discussing it with you) !

The "Gubmint" has only TWO sources of money to "hand out" to all the people who always have their "hands out";
they have the ability to confiscate it from the people who WORK, and they can "turn on the printing presses at the Bureau Of Printing And Engraving, and ..........make"something" out of "nothing" ! (And the present "clown" (with the ridiculous whiskers) is about the best there is at that !)

"the people with the greatest need" ? I'm wondering.........so many here seem to favor RAISING the "mimium wage"; have ANY you folks ever studied science ? If you do, (or if you already have), you'll run into a lot of "laws" there as well; there's this one that states........."if you throw something UP, it will come back DOWN"; (regardless of what obama, Nancy Pelosi, or Harry Reid tell you), things that get thrown up, always come down; If you ever read any book about simple economics, you'll hear about another "law"; "The amount people receive for their labor is in direct proportion to the difficulty of replacing them".

If you're have any trouble comprehending that. it simply points out that brain surgeons and astro physicists are "more difficult to replace" than Big Mac flippers, and car washers, so they tend to be compensated somewhat better. ( Have you ever heard of a brain surgeon screaming to get "minimum wage" ?)


Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21557 posts, RR: 55
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
I will say this though, once you get used to having your gas pumped for you, it's a rather nice little luxury.

All it gets me (in New Jersey) is wasted time waiting for the attendant to finish with other cars and get to me. It sucks.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
When you pay the minimum wage you generally get the minimum wage attitude and skillset that comes with that, even if the employee has a higher skill-set than their wage would suggest.

That's certainly true, but raising the minimum wage isn't going to make people more motivated. Rather, it'll just change the level of pay that companies have to give to people with minimum-wage attitudes.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6177 posts, RR: 30
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3674 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
I agree. Let's start exporting cocaine.

Nah. You are not producers. You should try pot though, it´s your biggest cash crop, and meth.



MGGS
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Nah. You are not producers. You should try pot though, it´s your biggest cash crop, and meth.

it's funny that you should mention meth ! That's the No.1 cottage industry with all of the "no-goodniks" around here; the big problems are though, first, all their teeth fall out, and then they always get caught and end up in the slammer for the next 20 years or so; personally, (all you libs cover your eyes now, cause you'll think this is "harsh"), I think we should make dealing in meth a Capital crime; (You know, one strike and you're "outa here"!)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
All it gets me (in New Jersey) is wasted time waiting for the attendant to finish with other cars and get to me. It sucks.

I rarely wait a moment. It usually takes me longer to bend down and flip the filler cap button, than it takes for an attendant to come over to the car to find out how much gas I want.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
2. You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative. If McDonald's raises the price of a Big Mac, Kohl's raises the price of underwear, or Starbucks raises the price of coffee, I have options. But I can't get gas from Joe's Espresso, Fuel, and Towing without paying all of the same things that Chevron charges.

You do have options. Go to a different gas station.

Your argument makes no sense. How is gas different from coffee? Assuming you need both to operate, why is it OK if the price of coffee goes up but not the price of gas?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11576 posts, RR: 15
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 9):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Here is the problem the radical right understand: since they decided it was in America's best interest to move jobs overseas, the only jobs left here are minimum wage jobs. That's why there are so many over qualified people working at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Macys, etc. Somehow, their policies are the "liberal's" fault.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 52, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative.
Sure there is, you can always drive less, buy at a more competitively priced station, get a more economical car ...

Well, if I drive less, then I need less gas, which means they need less attendants, which doesn't exactly help with the labor pool.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them.
Another good point. When you pay the minimum wage you generally get the minimum wage attitude and skillset that comes with that, even if the employee has a higher skill-set than their wage would suggest.

Hmmmm.... I'm not sure I agree with that generalization. Having worked with many different pay levels around me, I probably couldn't say that any one group is more or less committed, capable, or hard working than the next. Pay is but one aspect of the whole picture. Work environment, work hours, quantity of hours, other benefits, etc. can certainly make a lower-paying job a good compromise.

Also, minimum wage should be a starting wage that people can grow from. The problem is that when you are doing a job that requires little skill, you have a huge pool of applicants that are more than willing to work at minimum. Those types of jobs are not - and should not - be a place to park yourself for 10 years. I understand that in a down economy there are less options, but that doesn't make them suddenly more valuable or productive or skilled than before.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Some people get a raise. Others won't.

That extra money is going to have to come from somewhere.

True.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 50):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):2. You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative. If McDonald's raises the price of a Big Mac, Kohl's raises the price of underwear, or Starbucks raises the price of coffee, I have options. But I can't get gas from Joe's Espresso, Fuel, and Towing without paying all of the same things that Chevron charges.
You do have options. Go to a different gas station.

Your argument makes no sense. How is gas different from coffee? Assuming you need both to operate, why is it OK if the price of coffee goes up but not the price of gas?

The question was how come in Oregon there hasn't been financial ruin to these service stations because they have the extra labor cost? I replied that it's because they ALL have the same cost added and there isn't an alternative for me to get around that cost. Gas from station to station doesn't vary the same as other products do - if I don't like paying $3.87 a gallon and having John the Gas Pumper pump it in my car, my only option is to go across the street, pay $3.83 a gallon, and have Jim the Gas Pumper pump it in my car. The added cost of the labor is just passed along to the consumer and there really isn't an alternative for the consumer to do anything about it.

I can by a 16 oz cup of coffee at McDonalds for $1. I can by a 16 oz cup of coffee at the grocery store for $2. I can buy a 16 oz cup of coffee at Starbucks for $3. I have choices. And, unless you are absolutely addicted, you can just choose not to buy it at all, which would likely lead to lower prices as demand falls.

When I go out to buy gas, it isn't like there's a dollar store version of gas stations. There is very little variane in a given area between prices, they all have a huge chunk of tax per gallon added in, so regardless of where I go to get gas, it's going to cost me pretty much the same - there isn't a competitive alternative.

Regardless, I'm not arguing against the price of gas going up, I'm just explaining why the added cost from every gas station in the state of Oregon employing these people to pump my gas is not going to ruin them. They just pass on the cost to the consumer, who has virtually no option but to pay it or not drive.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 53, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 48):
(all you libs cover your eyes now, cause you'll think this is "harsh"), I think we should make dealing in meth a Capital crime; (You know, one strike and you're "outa here"!)

Must be a phenomenon where you are, this is the 1st I'm hearing of libs having thing to do with meth-heads
or their treatment. It's largely a red-state.district issue.. any source to back you claims?

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 54, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3577 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Well, if I drive less, then I need less gas, which means they need less attendants, which doesn't exactly help with the labor pool.

The more gas costs, the less volume some people fill their tanks with at each purchase, creating more trips to the gas station, increasing the need for a larger labor pool to staff gas stations. Two can play this game.  

The facts of the situation really are that an extra 20K minimum wage jobs are maintained in the state due to this law being in effect. Some of those employed may very well have been drawing unemployment instead. As a resident of Oregon, I'd much rather have the 20K jobs, even if there was a marginal price difference as a result, which there isn't.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards.

Look at Norway then come back to me, it kicks the US's arse in just about any metric I can think of and it's one of the most socialist countries on the planet. Most Americans could only dream about the lifestyle that all Norwegians live.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich.

Norway gets pretty close. Just about everyone I know and work with would be a dollar millionaire if cashed up. I guarantee you that the percentage of people who would be cashed up millionaires in Norway would be significantly higher than in the US.


User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Why should I care? Gas doesn't cost any more here than anywhere else.

How do you know that ? Have you bought gasoline in every state ?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Okay, now you've really lost the plot and totally blown your credibility. Outside of the metro areas of Portland/Salem/Eugene, Oregon is a HUGELY rural, red/conservative state. Banning self-serve gas has full bipartisan support. Even though the current legislature is held by a slight Democratic margin, that's not always been the case. Even our record of governors is split nearly down the middle half and half between parties, and our US senators have more often been Republican than Democrats.

Don't worry about my "credibility", I'm not; and now you're trying to tell us that Oregon is a "red" state ? where ? out in the boondocks where the bears live ? It sure doesn't sound so "red" around Portland; (or haven't you noticed ?)
So you think a state has the "right" to BAN self-service gas pumping do you ? Then you're lucky; (if you live in Oregon) Personally, I think it's a crock of you know what! And as long as other states do allow self service gas pumping, (and I'm VERY confident that will be FOR EVER), I am hereby declaring my life-long boycott of Oregon ! (I'll see to it that MY tax dollars go to a state that isn't living in the dark ages !

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 40):
Hard to believe you've ever set foot in Oregon. You must not have been very observant. That's been the law for 60+years.

Fortunately, the last time I was there, I didn't have to worry about running into libs like you ! ( you weren't even born yet!) (and inasmuch as I'm officially never coming back, I can assure you we will never have to "put up with" each other ! (unless of course, you go to Vegas a lot) (then we may)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Here is the problem the radical right understand: since they decided it was in America's best interest to move jobs overseas, the only jobs left here are minimum wage jobs. That's why there are so many over qualified people working at Wal-Mart, McDonalds, Macys, etc. Somehow, their policies are the "liberal's" fault.

Tell me Seb, what's the difference between a "radical" right, and any other kind of "right" ? And now all of a sudden it's ALL the "right's" fault that all the jobs moved overseas ? There's only one thing wrong with that statement......it's wrong! It just isn't true!

And you're wondering why so many people are working at McDonalds ? Actually, the "reason" varies greatly from person to person; both of my sons worked at McDonalds at one point; during the summer while they were still in High School, or very shortly after they graduated; neither one has had to work there since though; when you get out of college with a degree in engineering, you seldom have to worry about working for McDonalds any more. About all you have to worry about is some lib trying to blame you because "all of the jobs have moved overseas" ! (and even then, you don't have to worry very much)

While we're on this "all the jobs have moved overseas" kick, let me ask you this; if "all the jobs have moved overseas" as you say, please explain to me why millions of people from "overseas" have moved from "overseas" to "over here", and seem to be "making it" without too much trouble ? How is that possible, Seb, if "all of the jobs have moved overseas" as you say they have ? Could it possibly be that the people from "overseas" are more "flexible", or more "industrious" than many of the people from "over here" ?

You seem to have a mind-set that it's almost impossible for anyone to "get by" in the U.S. because of "all the jobs moving overseas"; I'm going to pour a bit of cold water on that ridiculous statement, with just two very good examples, which are VERY close to me.

We live in rural Indiana; the closest town of any size is Brazil; Brazil isn't exactly the kind of a small town where one would expect people from other countries to be able to move to, and end up making a very handsome living; I would have thought that myself back in the 80s and 90s when I had occasion to deliver a few new cars here from time to time;
however, in just the last 3 years, I have become personally acquainted with two different families who have not only "done quite well", they have done extremely well! One is a very nice man who came here from Mexico; he opened a restaurant, serving NOTHING but mexican food; (I always "assumed" I didn't "like' mexican food, mainly because I don't know a whole lot of Spanish  Lucky for me, I recently married a lady that DOES know enough Spanish to be able to order mexican food anyplace, (including Mexico) Since this fellow opened Mario Brothers in Brazil, he's also opened about five more restaurants; I like to go to his restaurant for three reasons; 1. the food, while not "cheap", is excellent !
2. The place is absolutely beautiful! All of the booths and chairs were hand carved in Mexico, and all of his staff are also from Mexico. Are they "legal" ? I have no idea; nor do I care. The man is very good for Brazil; that's all I care about. 3. I like to eat there because, notv only is the food great, I also like the people; (most "Brazilians are hill-billies)'

The other example is a small fellow from Viet Nam; my wife has her nails done at his shop about every two weeks; I think he may even be makin more money that Mario is, as he has a tremendous business; he and his wife both work long hours, 6 days a week; I can't think of anyone, less likely to end up "affluent" in the U.S., than some one who lived in Viet Nam during the "war" there. ( and I can think of very few people from this country, who could move to any country and "do as well" as either one of these people have, ( even though all of the jobs have moved overseers.)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 57, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3555 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

Pay more, be more discerning, enfornce higher standards.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Liberals love to spew crap about how "they didn't build it" and they owe us something for some reason

Liberals? Why do you consider anyone who desires a certain amount of wealth distribution to be 'liberal'? It's not necessarily the case at all. Plus, I for one am not in favour of something for nothing or getting a free ride. Far from it in fact.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 58, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3552 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
How do you know that ? Have you bought gasoline in every state ?

Where a price comparison would be instructive, right across the river in Washington State, it has been well-established that there's no discernible price difference.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
Don't worry about my "credibility", I'm not; and now you're trying to tell us that Oregon is a "red" state ? where ? out in the boondocks where the bears live ? It sure doesn't sound so "red" around Portland; (or haven't you noticed ?)

Already answered in my post. I even said, and you quoted (!), "Outside of the metro areas of Portland/Salem/Eugene."

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
So you think a state has the "right" to BAN self-service gas pumping do you ? Then you're lucky; (if you live in Oregon)

What I said is that I don't have a problem with the law, and I recognize its overall benefits.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
I am hereby declaring my life-long boycott of Oregon !

It's a free country, you may choose to travel where ever you'd like or not. No skin off my nose, LOL



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 59, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3545 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):

So you think a state has the "right" to BAN self-service gas pumping do you ?

So it's all about states rights until its not?

I'm confused now. I thought conservatives wanted a smaller federal government and states having more control over their issues. Silly me, to actually consider these issues in context of overarching principles like federalism, or individual liberties, but in actuality its all about what Charley likes and doesn't like.

Do you think a state has a 'right' to let a man marry a man?

Do you think a state has a right to let citizens openly carry firearms?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
Personally, I think it's a crock of you know what! And as long as other states do allow self service gas pumping, (and I'm VERY confident that will be FOR EVER), I am hereby declaring my life-long boycott of Oregon ! (I'll see to it that MY tax dollars go to a state that isn't living in the dark ages !

Is this some sort of running contest on who can find the least important issue to take some grand principled stand and declaration of boycott? If it is, you're winning.

I myself find the Oregon law quirky and rather pointless, but I just get to chill in the car.

What about Indiana and all the stupid laws of Indiana? Should I boycott Indiana because the state books technically say I cannot get a blow job? Now we've finally arrived at some real personal liberties!

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):

Fortunately, the last time I was there, I didn't have to worry about running into libs like you ! ( you weren't even born yet!) (and inasmuch as I'm officially never coming back, I can assure you we will never have to "put up with" each other ! (unless of course, you go to Vegas a lot) (then we may)

Cannot even imagine what you could possibly mean by this, much less something relevant to Oregon gas. My point, if you've been to Oregon in the last 63 years, you've encountered this. Spoiler alert: I don't live in Oregon.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 60, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards. Enforcing mediocrity leads nowhere. It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich. It is, however, possible to have one where nobody is rich.

High amount of welfare we have in here Europe has proven that the system we have around here is totally superior to yours in the US. It's possible to have a system where almost nobody is filthy rich but still those who work hard can become reasonably rich and those who are in the least favorable situation get enough money not to have to live on the streets & have access to healthcare just like every human being should have.

In the end also our economy here in Europe in general hasn't done much worse than yours in the US although you have way less social policies to add equality.

Any society where a person can't get proper healthcare because of not having enough money is totally unethical and sucks.

[Edited 2013-02-14 02:26:23]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 61, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Look at Norway then come back to me, it kicks the US's arse in just about any metric I can think of and it's one of the most socialist countries on the planet. Most Americans could only dream about the lifestyle that all Norwegians live.

Miami is like that, it has no real industry that matches all those mansions on the intercoastal..
*hint, hint* International Banking aka Money Laundering for 'the product'..

What exactly is it that Norway produces that enriches it so? Cars? nope. Airplanes? nope? Diamond capital? Nope.
I've heard they've got quite abit of international banking biz going on there too. No offense but what exactly does Finland produce? Because I just don't see Norway & Finland trading on par with Greece & Portugal and those guys are flat broke - with harbors and ports far more hustling and bustling than the aforementioned Nordic lands...so what is it if it isn't 'creative banking'?

BN747

[Edited 2013-02-14 03:10:05]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 62, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 61):
What exactly is it that Norway produces that enriches it so? Cars? nope. Airplanes? nope? Diamond capital? Nope.

Norway just saves a little out of the lunch money to squirrel away.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5613 posts, RR: 51
Reply 63, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 62):

Norway just saves a little out of the lunch money to squirrel away.

Ahh Oil and Gas.. has it always been that way?

So with Alaska 'taking care of it's citizens' with socialist Oil stipends... the answer to KiwiRob's question would be for the US to Alaskanize the entire USA with Oil and Gas stipends for all citizens - everyone's a millionaire and there are no Oil Barons. Hmmmmm... with poverty gone, Americans would have to find something else to divide themselves over. And they would.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 15):
This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

Maybe they think if act the same than the rich they will get richer?! my advice is not crave more than you earn.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 65, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 61):
What exactly is it that Norway produces that enriches it so?

Oil of course, plus it's also a major exporter of electricity to Europe, the oil service industry is massive, Stavanger is one of the oil capitals of the world, Norwegian fisheries are worth billions. The Norwegian people are healthy, happy and productive, damn socialism sucks   Can you say that about your lot?

I could also have said Sweden, they are right up there on all the nice states which splat the US, they produce cars, planes, heavy construction equipment, Volvo is the largest producer of heavy trucks, armaments, steel, Sweden is a highly industralised country which produces a hell of a lot of stuff, and they pay there people more than what US citizens get paid plus they are well educated (for free) and get free healthcare, I bet the average Swede is far happier and better off than the average American, plus the women are better looking over here.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1172 posts, RR: 1
Reply 66, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

But it still costs the employer to train them. Additionally, new employees are much more likely to make mistakes which can potentially cost the firm plenty. This depends on the business model though and certain types of firms are fine with a high turnover of staff.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Having worked with many different pay levels around me, I probably couldn't say that any one group is more or less committed, capable, or hard working than the next.

If you want/need employees to 'go the extra mile', those who are seen as 'valued' by the firm are more likely to do so. This does tie in with what you say below.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Pay is but one aspect of the whole picture. Work environment, work hours, quantity of hours, other benefits, etc. can certainly make a lower-paying job a good compromise.

   Certainly.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Also, minimum wage should be a starting wage that people can grow from. The problem is that when you are doing a job that requires little skill, you have a huge pool of applicants that are more than willing to work at minimum. Those types of jobs are not - and should not - be a place to park yourself for 10 years.

Agreed. Problem being that lots of western manufacturing jobs have been outsourced in recent years.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Norway gets pretty close. Just about everyone I know and work with would be a dollar millionaire if cashed up. I guarantee you that the percentage of people who would be cashed up millionaires in Norway would be significantly higher than in the US.

And here is some evidence that sortof backs that up (I don't think the graph is corrected for income inequality which is quite high in the US). http://econ.st/12LQseP

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
It's possible to have a system where almost nobody is filthy rich

There are plenty of very rich people in Europe. Sadly, a small portion of them move to tax havens like Monaco, Switzerland and Lichtenstein.



Air New Zealand; first to commercially fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
Personally, I think it's a crock of you know what! And as long as other states do allow self service gas pumping, (and I'm VERY confident that will be FOR EVER), I am hereby declaring my life-long boycott of Oregon !

So, forever avoid Oregon because of gas pumping laws. I'm sure you'd be the first.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
Fortunately, the last time I was there, I didn't have to worry about running into libs like you !

Cause everybody knows liberals will bite your face off and drink your blood. Did you know there are liberals in Indiana too?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 57):

Liberals? Why do you consider anyone who desires a certain amount of wealth distribution to be 'liberal'? It's not necessarily the case at all.

It's an American point of view. Almost anywhere in the world, I'd be pretty conservative across a large amount of fronts. But here in 'merka, still pretty left of center. I'm sure you can see FOX where you are, and I know that looks positively insane, but it you have to understand that it does speak very well for mainstream right-wing america. So, yes, to us, virtually anything reasonable, weather we're talking finances, safety, or human rights, will appear radically liberal, thanks to the extremist positions the GOP has adopted. It's pretty sad, but "normal" in most places pretty much has to be "liberal" here. We have a long way to go, as you can see.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):

Any society where a person can't get proper healthcare because of not having enough money is totally unethical and sucks.

And can also be known as America. We have a long way to go here, and we will get there, but yes, it's downright pitiful how much we still need to educate people on what's normal and/or correct about these things. There's a lot of pride here, and a lot of breathtakingly short-sighted "values" at play. I'm sure it will be a while before that all gets worked out and we're really with the program on these things...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 63):
Hmmmmm... with poverty gone, Americans would have to find something else to divide themselves over. And they would.

That's what sports are for. I really don't mind that we like to divide on issues. Just so the important ones (like this and a few others) get sorted out in a fashion that raises the economic standards of the most people and lowers the same for the least. It's ugly that people feel the need to resist that, but it won't be like that forever...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards. Enforcing mediocrity leads nowhere. It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich. It is, however, possible to have one where nobody is rich.

Without some socialism the best and brightest people are unlikely to get a chance. We need to stop thinking of socialism and capitalism with blinds. It is about what brings best result for everyone. Without dogma.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
It's exceptionally scary to see how giddy many people are at the prospect of getting their hands on some of the money controlled by millionaires. Liberals love to spew crap about how "they didn't build it" and they owe us something for some reason, but the truth of it is that liberals want to tax the rich for the same reason that John Dillinger robbed banks: that's where the money is.

There are two ways to make money. You can create something that bring value or you can take it from others. Not paying fair salary is taking.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

The mentality that has brought us so much problem. Employee turnover is very costly. Doesn't matter what the position is.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 69, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards. Enforcing mediocrity leads nowhere. It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich. It is, however, possible to have one where nobody is rich.

There are too many assumptions going on here. I don't think (at least I hope not) anybody is advocating blanket socialism over the US. The fact is that "socialism" can come in many forms. Example: Canada is a fairly conservative country, yet we have what Americans fearfully know as "socialized healthcare" ("universal healthcare" to us) that actually works quite well. The US would be better off to take a more socialized stance in some areas; but with that said, wages isn't one of them.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

True, but the most effective companies are those that are able to extract all the potential from their resources.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Here is the problem the radical right understand: since they decided it was in America's best interest to move jobs overseas

Nonsense. It's the radical right that is screaming about foreigners taking their jobs. It's the right that wants to lower corporate taxes so that companies maintain their operations in the US instead of offshoring.

If you want to play that game, then we can also say that the radical left is responsible for jobs leaving the country because of their propensity to tax the shit out of corporations which prompts them to leave with their middle fingers in the air.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Norway gets pretty close. Just about everyone I know and work with would be a dollar millionaire if cashed up.

I guess you don't know many fast-food employees, housekeepers, or civil servants? Surely they aren't millionaires by any stretch of the mind.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 56):
Are they "legal" ? I have no idea; nor do I care.

That's rather contradictory. I've seen you ramble on about illegal immigrants in other threads. So which is it?

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 64):
my advice is not crave more than you earn.

So then where is the incentive to strive for more? No economy grows based on the mindset that "we're happy with what we have, and we won't try to do any better".



Flying refined.
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 70, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3416 times:

Just in case you wanted to know, here is a list of the average gas prices by state and the gasoline taxes per state.
http://gasbuddy.com/GB_Price_List.aspx

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/web_gas_taxes.php


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 71, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):
civil servants?

My wife is a civil servant, she makes about 90K USD, plus has an amazing pension plan. I delivered newspapers for the first 6 months I lived here, my salary for this was 45k USD. So whilst CEO's and upper management aren't as well paid as they would be in the US, the rank and file are significantly better paid.

I used to think the salaries of CEO's were ok, they do a big job so pay them big, but now I don't, paying someone 100m per year to run a company is stupid and not justifiable, when they can easily make do with 10m and still have a fantastic lifestyle.


User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 72, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):
Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 64):
my advice is not crave more than you earn.

So then where is the incentive to strive for more? No economy grows based on the mindset that "we're happy with what we have, and we won't try to do any better".

Sure it's good to try to do better and strive for more but in reason. Not take more loan than u can handle and so on..


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 73, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 71):
My wife is a civil servant, she makes about 90K USD, plus has an amazing pension plan. I delivered newspapers for the first 6 months I lived here, my salary for this was 45k USD. So whilst CEO's and upper management aren't as well paid as they would be in the US, the rank and file are significantly better paid.

   FDI in Norway must be terribly low. I can't see any MNE wanting to have any part of that unless they got the bargain of the century.

But what does your wife do as a civil servant? I may have been too broad, since civil servant pretty much describes every government employee. I was going more towards street cleaners and the like.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 71):
I used to think the salaries of CEO's were ok, they do a big job so pay them big, but now I don't, paying someone 100m per year to run a company is stupid and not justifiable, when they can easily make do with 10m and still have a fantastic lifestyle.

I'm pretty sure the number of CEOs making 100m+ you could count on one hand. Also keep in mind that all of the highest earning CEOs accrue most of their compensation through stock and other compensatory vehicles such as travel and benefits, not salary and bonuses.

Quoting AY-MD11 (Reply 72):
Sure it's good to try to do better and strive for more but in reason. Not take more loan than u can handle and so on..

Well yes, I agree when you put it that way, but there's a difference between incentivizing success and taking out inappropriate loans in order to reach them.


Quoting cmf (Reply 68):
Not paying fair salary is taking.

But you can't quantify "fair", therefore it's totally based on opinion, which is going to vary from person to person.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 74, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3332 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):
But you can't quantify "fair", therefore it's totally based on opinion, which is going to vary from person to person

Why can't we quantify it?


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 75, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3326 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 74):
Why can't we quantify it?

How DO you quantify fair? As I mentioned:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):
it's totally based on opinion, which is going to vary from person to person.

There's no one generally accepted definition of "fair" when it comes to wages at any level. There's no one accepted wage scale. There's at least 30 posters on this thread, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had 30 different ideas of what "fair" really is, whether we're talking about wages or otherwise.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 76, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3321 times:

http://www.epi.org/publication/ib347...-top-one-percent-rebound-strongly/


Some more data on who is getting screwed in this country. Heaven forbid that people on the bottom make more, that is a disaster waiting to happen. But it is wonderful if people who make it big, get more of the pie. Read the charts. Of course this is all liberal boloney. We are tying to destroy the country by advocating for the 99%. Just ask the followers on the "Right". Funny that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 77, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3312 times:
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Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 67):
It's an American point of view. Almost anywhere in the world, I'd be pretty conservative across a large amount of fronts. But here in 'merka, still pretty left of center. I'm sure you can see FOX where you are, and I know that looks positively insane, but it you have to understand that it does speak very well for mainstream right-wing america. So, yes, to us, virtually anything reasonable, weather we're talking finances, safety, or human rights, will appear radically liberal, thanks to the extremist positions the GOP has adopted. It's pretty sad, but "normal" in most places pretty much has to be "liberal" here. We have a long way to go, as you can see.

Certainly pretty common here. As soon as you give an opinion on a particulat topic, you are immediately pigeon-holed and labeled as being one thing or another, even though you may hold a different political stance on other matters. Is it really so difficult to grasp that people might hold a range of views? It is just so black and white for many here. You're either 'them' or 'us'. Would be good to just debate the opinion given rather than immediately assume you're one thing or another.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 78, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
http://www.epi.org/publication/ib347...-top-one-percent-rebound-strongly/

Superb sourcing of an openly liberal think-tank to support a liberal perspective.   There are moderate thinktanks out there you know...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
But it is wonderful if people who make it big, get more of the pie. Read the charts.

I read the charts. I don't particular like that they source all of their stats from a single reference point, but I'll tell you this: they don't exactly support your argument.

Yes, it's true that the top 1% have rebounded the most during the recovery. But you know what else the statistics say? They say that the top 1% was also the hardest hit in the recession. The wealthy aren't safeguarded against anything, they are at a far greater risk to fluctuations in their wealth because for most of them it's entirely dependent on market strength. The good days are good for the rich, but the bad days are just as bad.

I make the same argument in the CBA talks between owners and athletes: Those who bear the greatest risk should enjoy the greatest reward.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
Of course this is all liberal boloney. We are tying to destroy the country by advocating for the 99%. Just ask the followers on the "Right". Funny that.

Obama said during his SOTU address that both sides need to start getting along. I guess some didn't get the memo...

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 77):
As soon as you give an opinion on a particulat topic, you are immediately pigeon-holed and labeled as being one thing or another, even though you may hold a different political stance on other matters.

   I'm decidedly conservative, but often the fellows on the far-right will often accuse me of being a "lib" (as if it's the worst thing in the world) simply because I don't prescribe to every conservative value. I'm honestly not offended in the slightest at being called a liberal, it's actually more amusing how much some people will close-mindedly tow the party line. I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand that others can have views in certain areas that fall to either side of centre depending on the area.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 79, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
The question was how come in Oregon there hasn't been financial ruin to these service stations because they have the extra labor cost? I replied that it's because they ALL have the same cost added and there isn't an alternative for me to get around that cost.

That and looking at the tax rates, of the states that border Oregon, only Idaho has lower gas taxes.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Most Americans could only dream about the lifestyle that all Norwegians live.

That's because too many Americans are too busy decorating their trailers and having babies rather than going to school. You can't tax your way out of a stupid populace.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Just about everyone I know and work with would be a dollar millionaire if cashed up. I guarantee you that the percentage of people who would be cashed up millionaires in Norway would be significantly higher than in the US.

How much will that buy you? Being a paper millionaire is not particularly rich here, let alone Norway where a BMW 328i will set you back the equivalent of $97,000.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 57):
Pay more, be more discerning, enfornce higher standards.

When you're talking about jobs like being a janitor or burger jock, why do any of that? Those jobs don't require any standards for the most part.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 57):
Why do you consider anyone who desires a certain amount of wealth distribution to be 'liberal'?

Seeking artificial redistribution of wealth is a cornerstone of the liberal economic policy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
It's possible to have a system where almost nobody is filthy rich but still those who work hard can become reasonably rich and those who are in the least favorable situation get enough money not to have to live on the streets & have access to healthcare just like every human being should have.

That's exactly the system I don't want. Having it set up to keep people from becoming filthy rich and engaging in artificial redistribution of wealth is generally an awful thing to do. Be hands off with the market and let the cream rise to the top and rest go wherever their abilities can take them.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 60):
Any society where a person can't get proper healthcare because of not having enough money is totally unethical and sucks.

Ah, yes. The pure evil of not giving people things they don't pay for.  
Quoting zkojq (Reply 66):
But it still costs the employer to train them.

Jobs that take more training are better paid. Most minimum wage jobs require little more than a warm body.

Quoting cmf (Reply 68):
Without some socialism the best and brightest people are unlikely to get a chance.

I'm not saying we should dismantle public education.

Quoting cmf (Reply 68):
Not paying fair salary is taking.

Strictly speaking, fair salary is whatever the market will bear. Whatever you can get away with paying is fair, not what some bleeding heart liberal believes a job is worth.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1630 posts, RR: 2
Reply 80, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

While we are at it, let kids work again and reintroduce 18 hours shifts.




Usually those who support this kind of idiocy, do it under the assumption that such wage cuts and hour increase wouldn't affect them as well.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 81, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3274 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Seeking artificial redistribution of wealth is a cornerstone of the liberal economic policy.

......and a view held by a range of others.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
When you're talking about jobs like being a janitor or burger jock, why do any of that? Those jobs don't require any standards for the most part.

Seriously? It doesn't matter how menial you might consider the work, of course there are always standards and differing levels of efficiency. Pay peanuts, get monkies. I don't care if it's the cleaner or the CEO, I would want all workers to be fully effective, efficient and loyal. If you want the extra expense of a revolving door, where you have stupidly high staff turnover and the costs of hiring people new on a regular basis, then I guess disastrously low pay is desirable for you. It doesn't make much sense though.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
That extra money is going to have to come from somewhere.

I spent a lot of years working retail budgets and there is ample ability to increase minimum wages without impacting company performance. If you can't handle a 5¢ or 10¢ increase in the cost of your trip to McDonalds then see if you can get on food stamps.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
It's exceptionally scary to see how giddy many people are at the prospect of getting their hands on some of the money controlled by millionaires.

Actually it is exceptionally scary to see how the tax system favors ultra high earners. The one think that Mitt Romney's tax filings presented was just how much the wealthy can get away with. 300+ pages for a tax return?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Liberals love to spew crap about how "they didn't build it"

Can you name me one person in the US that was able to gain wealth without some parts of the US business environment?

Start with Bill Gates. Forget the illegal activities of his company - just consider how great his wealth would have been if IBM had chosen another company for their PC OS. And how dependent Bill was on customers actually spending money on his products.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
that's where the money is.

And, of course, that is where the major loopholes are. Just think about personal tax returns of 300+ pages to get an idea of the games being played.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

The problem we, as a country, face when embracing commodity labor is that tax dollars are needed to cover the poverty wages that employees pay.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
...which are patronized by lower and middle class people. There isn't going to be a net flow of money to the poor from increasing minimum wage. People working at Neiman Marcus aren't making minimum wage, it's the Walmart employees making minimum wage

You don't believe that Neiman Marcus has low paid workers?         

Let's start with the cleaners who make sure the stores look great.

Then lets go to their receiving facilities where merchandise is unpacked and prepared for the floor. And RTMs are packed up and sent back to their suppliers.

Poverty level wages are pervasive in this country - and that leads to corporate welfare.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 45):
he's also a HUGE obama supporter; thanks to the un=affordable HC "act", his health insurance is very soon about to MORE than double !

Considering that my health insurance doubled during the first term of W & Dick I'm not surprised. Maybe he can find a better insurance company as many are actually sending customers refunds. Current law required that 85% of premiums be spent on actual health care. If an insurance company doesn't get up to that level then they have to send out refunds.

The biggest factor for me with ObamaCare is the elimination of pre-existing conditions. That can have a huge impact on the country's quality of care as demonstrated in outcomes. The US is first in the world in outcomes for women with breast cancer, but that is the only place where we are first. The average guy might find 15 or 20 countries with better outcomes for his potential conditions. Infants? We're 22nd in infant mortality. Tied with Cuba. Bloody Cuba.

Next important factor is going to be Medicaid improvements. Bit queer, but some southern states are actually letting the Federal Government handle the new programs. Big time having the Feds getting their nose under the tent and really queer that those states would do it.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 83, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
I spent a lot of years working retail budgets and there is ample ability to increase minimum wages without impacting company performance. If you can't handle a 5¢ or 10¢ increase in the cost of your trip to McDonalds then see if you can get on food stamps.

Perhaps. However, if you want to imply that the only increases going on with the McWhatever is labor, then you are missing the bigger picture. Food, fuel, insurance, taxes, changing regulations, equipment, etc are ALL going up.

I don't dispute that the labor impact per burger is going to be manageable, but I don't think your example should stand alone. Those very people are going to get priced out of a job because there is only so much that Ronald can charge for a burger before they get priced out of the market. In fact, I'd be curious what the same-store guest counts are for their units year-over-year (don't know if that stat exists). I think that same-store sales are important but price increases and so forth can affect those.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 84, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
That's because too many Americans are too busy decorating their trailers and having babies rather than going to school. You can't tax your way out of a stupid populace.

Best comment on this thread so far.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
The pure evil of not giving people things they don't pay for.

They pay for it through taxes. Governments with universal healthcare don't just pull it out of their a**es. Do you think it's a coincidence that Canadians pay higher taxes for consumer goods than you do?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 80):
While we are at it, let kids work again and reintroduce 18 hours shifts.

Oh please.   Getting rid of minimum wage legislation doesn't automatically get rid of other labour laws. They are independent of each other. Your argument is using the same tactic as the folks who say "If we let men marry men, then it's only a matter of time before men are marrying animals".

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
I spent a lot of years working retail budgets and there is ample ability to increase minimum wages without impacting company performance. If you can't handle a 5¢ or 10¢ increase in the cost of your trip to McDonalds then see if you can get on food stamps.

So you admit then that the burden of cost will be passed to the consumer and not the multi-billion dollar businesses?



Flying refined.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 85, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3227 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 73):
But what does your wife do as a civil servant?

She works for NAV which is the social welfare agency.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
How much will that buy you? Being a paper millionaire is not particularly rich here, let alone Norway where a BMW 328i will set you back the equivalent of $97,000.

Which is interesting because BMW is currently the best selling car in the county I live in and last year I believe they were the fifth best selling marque in Norway. People here have money to burn.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 86, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 81):
Pay peanuts, get monkies.

Exactly. Some jobs can be done perfectly well by monkeys.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 81):
It doesn't make much sense though.

For some jobs it probably does make sense.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
I spent a lot of years working retail budgets and there is ample ability to increase minimum wages without impacting company performance.

That, by definition, cannot really be true. You could say that budgets can increase and the company will still be profitable, but there is no way to increase costs without either making less profit or passing the increase on to customers. Of course, at this point it is important to remind people that companies are not run for the benefit of employees.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
Actually it is exceptionally scary to see how the tax system favors ultra high earners.

...and yet they still pick up most of the bill for the entire country.

There need to be changes to the tax code. But, rather than trying to break into the millionaires' vault the changes need to be focused on making the lower and middle classes pay. They need to be in the taxation crosshairs, and only then will the importance of spending become clear to people who at this point either don't know or don't care.

Right now it's Friedman's fourth way of spending money and that's why governmental budgets are so messed up. The old saying about liberals trying to fix everything with other people's money is for the most part true.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
Start with Bill Gates.

Drives on the same roads, uses the same post office, and is protected by the same military as you or I. And I'm pretty sure he never even went to public school. The reason he is a billionaire and you and I are not billionaires has nothing to do with government policies giving him anything special.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
The problem we, as a country, face when embracing commodity labor is that tax dollars are needed to cover the poverty wages that employees pay.

That's why welfare programs need to go.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
You don't believe that Neiman Marcus has low paid workers?

They have some, but I'd wager that most of their workers get paid more than equivalent workers at Walmart or Target. The businesses with large numbers of minimum wage employees are ones that are patronized largely by lower and middle class people. Raising minimum wage won't pull money from the pockets of millionaires, it will pull money from the pockets of regular people.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 87, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3232 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Ah, yes. The pure evil of not giving people things they don't pay for.  

Health is not something you should need to pay for, totally different from all the useless material stuff that you don't really need.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
That's exactly the system I don't want. Having it set up to keep people from becoming filthy rich and engaging in artificial redistribution of wealth is generally an awful thing to do. Be hands off with the market and let the cream rise to the top and rest go wherever their abilities can take them.

In the US and countries with similar society and economic system it's not your abilities that matter so much but how much money your parents have. No matter how intelligent and how good working morals you have if you don't have the money to educate yourself your chances of becoming rich and getting high quality of life quality are very small. And I'm talking now how things go in general, of course every now and then somebody with incredible luck manages to rise from total poverty to the top, but that's extremely rare.

In the end at least in the US how much money your parents have, your social status and contacts to right people seem to matter way more than your actual abilities.

I'm really glad we have these state funded universities and institutes in here Finland, they allow even poor people with normal abilities to educate themselves to higher levels and that way obtain higher social status instead of staying poor like in the US.

Inequality is something that should be always fought against and proper state funded school system all the way to higher education levels is one of the most important parts of this fight. I dislike any society where lack of money prevents you from studying as high as your abilities would make you go.

[Edited 2013-02-14 12:10:11]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 88, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 84):
They pay for it through taxes.

Which means that some people pay far more than they get out of it and some people take far more than they put in.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 84):
Governments with universal healthcare don't just pull it out of their a**es.

Tell that to people who continually talk about providing "free" healthcare. But given how tax revenue is distributed here, that may actually be the case for many people.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 85):
Which is interesting because BMW is currently the best selling car in the county I live in and last year I believe they were the fifth best selling marque in Norway. People here have money to burn.

It's hard to trumpet how much money Scandinavians have when they also top the list in cost of living. Not to mention the flawed logic of trying to apply to the US as a whole policies from a country with the population of Colorado spread over an area similar to Montana.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 87):
Health is not something you should need to pay for, totally different from all the useless material stuff that you don't really need.

And yet nobody has any problems letting food be a for-profit industry.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 87):
In the US and countries with similar society and economic system it's not your abilities that matter so much but how much money your parents have.

Bullshit. Having family money can make an easier road for some people but anyone who tells you they can't succeed because their parents don't have enough money is lying to you.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 87):
I'm really glad we have these state funded universities and institutes in here Finland, they allow even poor people with normal abilities to educate themselves to higher levels and that way obtain higher social status instead of staying poor like in the US

There is tons of student aid in the US, both need and merit based. If it were me, I would require all government student aid to become solely merit based. I don't care if your parents are homeless or billionaires, if you demonstrate the ability, the government can help you be educated to a high level.

For that matter, I think that some Ivy League schools have enacted policies that do not allow students to graduate with debt, but I'd have to check that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 87):
Inequality is something that should be always fought against

No. Inequality and competition should not just be allowed, but encouraged. I personally make it my life's goal to build up as much inequality economically as possible.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 89, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Having it set up to keep people from becoming filthy rich and engaging in artificial redistribution of wealth is generally an awful thing to do. Be hands off with the market and let the cream rise to the top and rest go wherever their abilities can take them.

You've got it all wrong there again, there are plenty of people in Norway who are self made and stinking rich. There are also plenty of stinking rich families with old money in Norway as well. The system here doesn't hinder anyone from becoming rich if they want to, for those that don't the average wage gives Norwegians a pretty good lifestyle, those that need help get it, but not many people here need help, unemployment is under 4%. I'll take the Scandinavian socialist system over the failed US system any day of the week and twice on Sundays.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 90, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3211 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 86):
Exactly. Some jobs can be done perfectly well by monkeys.

Monkeys that you should want to work hard, do a good job, turn up, and not leave the job every five minutes so you have to hire more, be able to afford to look after themselves and keep themselves healthy.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 91, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):

It's hard to trumpet how much money Scandinavians have when they also top the list in cost of living.

It's hard to bitch about the cost of living when you're living the good life, you'd be surprised but most people here don't really care that the cost of living is high, nearly 30% of Norwegian households also own a holiday home so go figure. The standard answer to a foreigner complaining about the costs of everyday items in Norway is 'so what we earn a lot so it doesn't matter'.

I've complained about the cost of living in Norway, but when push comes to shove I know I'm far better off here than anywhere else.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Not to mention the flawed logic of trying to apply to the US as a whole policies from a country with the population of Colorado spread over an area similar to Montana.

What's flawed about it, the US system clearly doesn't work for everyone, IMO it only really works for a select few the rest are just cheap (but increasingly not cheap enough) labour. I really don't see the problem with implementing some socialist policies.

[Edited 2013-02-14 12:48:19]

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 92, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Which means that some people pay far more than they get out of it and some people take far more than they put in.

Many people don't drive, yet their tax dollars still pay for the DMV.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Tell that to people who continually talk about providing "free" healthcare.

Half of them know it's not free and only refer to it as "free" because they can leave the hospital with their credit card intact; while the other half are morons. I never said that there weren't stupid people in Canada too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Bullshit. Having family money can make an easier road for some people but anyone who tells you they can't succeed because their parents don't have enough money is lying to you.

   Just for fun, I checked my university's scholarship page. Of the ones I looked at, over 80% have "demonstrate financial need" as a requirement to be considered for the scholarship/bursary. There's a boatload of money out there for students that can't afford post-secondary education out of their own pocket (or family's pocket).



Flying refined.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 93, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
And yet nobody has any problems letting food be a for-profit industry.

As long as government offers even most unfortunate people enough money to buy food or directly offers them free food I have no problem with food being a for-profit industry. You don't need that much food to stay alive and healthy, for many in western countries less food would do just better.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
Bullshit. Having family money can make an easier road for some people but anyone who tells you they can't succeed because their parents don't have enough money is lying to you.

Then tell me how somebody whose parents have barely enough money to eat and have some place to live could study in some good US university?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
There is tons of student aid in the US, both need and merit based. If it were me, I would require all government student aid to become solely merit based. I don't care if your parents are homeless or billionaires, if you demonstrate the ability, the government can help you be educated to a high level.

I've seen plenty of news from the US about people who struggle to get enough money to study in universities. Obviously those aids aren't big enough or are only for people with exceptionally good abilities. In my opinion anybody with average abilities (for that whatever education level they are joining) should be able to get enough of those aids to study, not just those who are way better than average. Only then there can be true equality.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 88):
No. Inequality and competition should not just be allowed, but encouraged. I personally make it my life's goal to build up as much inequality economically as possible.

Competition and inequality are rubbish. People should work together to make world a better place to live in instead of competing with each other. Whole idea of infinite economic growth and endless competition is flawed and will only result in misery when that whole piece of garbage collapses.

Things can't continue like this, eventually it will all lead into a big disaster. I bet it will be combination of wars, natural disasters such as climate change and simply endless greed will cause it and worldwide economics and capitalism in its current form will cease to exist.

Too bad it most likely won't happen in our lifetime, would be just awesome to witness total collapse of this "civilization" run by money and greed.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 94, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

The minimum wage is probably the best ever example of forceful government policy having the completely opposite result of what it was intended to do.

By setting a price that people can sell their labour at above the market rate, you essentially just destroy all of the jobs for people who don't provide productivity at or above that level.

Now these people will end up on benefits, won't have a chance of progressing their skills, won't experience on their CV. A person is forced into a life of benefit dependency because people thought they were protecting him from terrible exploitive employers who had the cheek to offer somebody a job.

The saddest thing of all though is even though life is now worse for these people (as well as the taxpayer and the consumer) even suggesting its remove results in many people foaming at the mouth and quoting this mythical "race to the bottom" theory. And shameful politicians who probably know the consequences play on this myth to win votes.

If you absolutely must give people who are unproductive some financial assistance then working tax credits are a far superior way of achieving this. Essentially, let's say for every 2 pennies a person earns below £5 the government will subsidise him 1 penny up to a cap of what would be his dole money if he had no job.

Now we have a system where

A) It never makes more sense to stay on benefits
B) It'll never make sense not to improve your skills and push for a payrise
C) Employers will never be forced to pay above the market rate for employees and we can hope to provide work for everyone that wants it.

Really though the government should stay out of voluntary employment agreements. Out of wages, out of redundancy packages, pension packages, working hours, holidays. The only thing the government should do is provide a system where if one party breaches the terms of their working agreement then the other is retributed accordingly.

As for the socialism debate.

The problems with the world today aren't due to a lack of socialism, the problems are due to a lack of capitalism.

If we got rid of this ludicrous corporative system where central banks give commercial banks money that they've just created on a computer and instead went back to a system where there are no central banks, the monetary base is static and the market sets the interest rates, humanity might progress and the standard of living would rise for everyone instead of for the small banking elite in The City or on Wall Street.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 95, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
That's because too many Americans are too busy decorating their trailers and having babies rather than going to school. You can't tax your way out of a stupid populace.

Cute picture of poverty in the US. At least you recognize that it's a problem.

As for education for many, you assume that everyone has IQ to be moderately successful in school. You'd probably be critical of someone with anencephaly for not doing their homework.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
When you're talking about jobs like being a janitor or burger jock, why do any of that? Those jobs don't require any standards for the most part.

The level of public or company training might not be that high, but those jobs are necessary for generating revenues (flipping burgers) or maintaining various standards customers expect - your Neiman's example.

Just because the job does not require a university education doesn't mean it is a worthless job. To trivialize a job in order to justify poverty level wages is exactly why we need federal laws to protect the population.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Seeking artificial redistribution of wealth is a cornerstone of the liberal economic policy.

We have had redistribution of wealth under Bush & Cheney - shifting wealth from the middle class to the moneyed class. Great wealth that can hire an army of lobbyists to get the loopholes they want, even if it required a 300+ page income tax return.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Ah, yes. The pure evil of not giving people things they don't pay for.

When you talk about doctors, you will have a hard time finding a US trained doctor who did not benefit from public generosity in obtaining his education.

We have hospitals receiving major federal funding so they are not giving away anything for free.

We also have major funding of medical research at various hospitals and have every right as taxpayers to receive the benefit of that research without additional costs.

And the list can go on for most companies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Jobs that take more training are better paid. Most minimum wage jobs require little more than a warm body.

Regardless of the education needed for a position there is no excuse for companies to pay poverty level wages. We don't need a serf class in this country - even if it would make the rich even richer.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Strictly speaking, fair salary is whatever the market will bear. Whatever you can get away with paying is fair, not what some bleeding heart liberal believes a job is worth.

That's a cute game. Carnival might have been playing that game and it might end up being the cause of the fire.

So we might actually see a balance to those low wages - a few thousand lawsuits from passengers who were made to endure the operation of the ship after the fire. Let's let all those juries in all those suits help Carnival understand what is fair. What ever the trial lawyers "can get away" with is the other side of your coin.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 96, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
Well, if I drive less, then I need less gas, which means they need less attendants, which doesn't exactly help with the labor pool.

That statement explains why the North American and Euro economies are growing at a snail's pace while places like China, India, and Brazil are slowing down.

Basically a capitalistic economy requires spending to function and with the lower and middle classes squeezed who are the engines of a modern economy they won't spend the money on gas to take a road trip then the attendant will get laid off. Same with retail as we are all reluctant to buy clothes and new electronics etc. (I could go on).

In an economy your spending in my income and my spending is your income and if no one spends then no one earns. Right now there is far less spending out of fear and the only way to get this going again is for someone to invest.

What we need is a large number of game changing Entrepreneurs and it would be good for the education system to find a way to teach something that is not that easy to teach.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
The question was how come in Oregon there hasn't been financial ruin to these service stations because they have the extra labor cost? I replied that it's because they ALL have the same cost added and there isn't an alternative for me to get around that cost.

Australia has a $16 per hour minimum wage and while some things are more expensive it has hardly ruined their economy and they have the second best standard of living in the world next to Norway IIRC.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
That's because too many Americans are too busy decorating their trailers and having babies rather than going to school.

That is a huge generalization but I will say that in Norway many more people get higher education because it is paid for by the state though taxes (or heavily subsidized). Where as in the US many cannot afford it because of astronomical costs and if they do they are paying essentially a mortgage in student loans that even in a good economy an entry level salary isn't going to cover.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 86):
And I'm pretty sure he never even went to public school.

He did go to a private school but he didn't finish college and neither did Steve Jobs, also when these guys were growing up the US had one of the best public education systems out there. Education is important yes but a lot of the time you can't judge the intelligence of a person by how they do in the classroom.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
Whole idea of infinite economic growth and endless competition is flawed and will only result in misery when that whole piece of garbage collapses.

There is truth to that, we cannot grow forever in a planet that is finite.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
Things can't continue like this, eventually it will all lead into a big disaster. I bet it will be combination of wars, natural disasters such as climate change and simply endless greed will cause it and worldwide economics and capitalism in its current form will cease to exist.

What is more likely is something similar to the French revolution is where the masses who are suffering say "I've had enough and am not going to take in anymore". Hopefully it's not as violent as that was.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 97, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 96):
That statement explains why the North American and Euro economies are growing at a snail's pace while places like China, India, and Brazil are slowing down.

Basically a capitalistic economy requires spending to function and with the lower and middle classes squeezed who are the engines of a modern economy they won't spend the money on gas to take a road trip then the attendant will get laid off. Same with retail as we are all reluctant to buy clothes and new electronics etc. (I could go on).

One must be careful to define what economic growth is. Economic growth is an increase in an economy's productivity, not an increase in the amount of spending.

It is an increase in productivity, normally achieved through savings and capital investment that results in more spending thanks to surplus productivity. it's not the other way round.

Both the UK and the US have been spending their little hearts out over the last 10 years. But the embarrassing trade deficits say, we're not at all very productive any more.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 98, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
The system here doesn't hinder anyone from becoming rich if they want to,

They just have to pay dearly for the privilege.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 89):
but not many people here need help, unemployment is under 4%.

Now you're getting it. The real solution is real growth and real prosperity, not rearranging the economic deck chairs. Build actual value rather than using the government to shovel money at people who don't really deserve it. It's supply side economics that are the actual answer.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 91):
It's hard to bitch about the cost of living when you're living the good life,

Not really. People love to talk about those making $250,000 per year are the fat cats who need to be taxed more when in reality that's only middle class even in the cheaper parts of the country. You could make twice that and still be very much middle class, even in places like California.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 91):
I really don't see the problem with implementing some socialist policies.

It has to come from somewhere. Money doesn't just appear.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 92):
Half of them know it's not free and only refer to it as "free" because they can leave the hospital with their credit card intact; while the other half are morons. I never said that there weren't stupid people in Canada too.

In the US, with the current tax system, for a lot of people it actually will be free. Somebody else will have to pay for it since they pay little in taxes.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
As long as government offers even most unfortunate people enough money to buy food or directly offers them free food I have no problem with food being a for-profit industry. You don't need that much food to stay alive and healthy, for many in western countries less food would do just better.

That's not what socialized healthcare is proposing though. What you're talking about is more like the current system where an ER will treat you and keep you alive even if you can't pay.

What the universal healthcare people are actually talking about would be more like something where everyone gets to eat steak. The richest and the poorest all get the best healthcare, at government expense.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
Then tell me how somebody whose parents have barely enough money to eat and have some place to live could study in some good US university?

Scholarships and financial aid. There is plenty of money out there for students. I'm pretty sure that Princeton and Harvard will not allow students to have loans, either the families have money to pay or the student gets grants and scholarships.

Furthermore, many top schools are making a concerted effort to add economic and ethnic diversity among their students. Personally, I very much dislike that and think it should be a complete meritocracy.

The bottom line is that family money might get someone into a spot they don't really deserve, but lack of family money won't keep deserving students out of schools they deserve to be at.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
Only then there can be true equality.

"True equality" just means forcing everyone to be average. It's a terrible idea.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
Competition and inequality are rubbish. People should work together to make world a better place to live in instead of competing with each other.

Competition and inequality is what is responsible for every improvement in the world. Somebody wanted something. That's the bottom line. A caveman wanted to kill bigger animals to get more food so he made a spear and mankind was off and running. Greed is good.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 94):
The minimum wage is probably the best ever example of forceful government policy having the completely opposite result of what it was intended to do.

Actually I think that award has to go to the American CAFE laws.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
Cute picture of poverty in the US. At least you recognize that it's a problem.

Not my problem.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
As for education for many, you assume that everyone has IQ to be moderately successful in school.

The bar for being moderately successful in school is not that high. I'm not saying everyone has to go to an Ivy League college, or even college at all. There are many people who are too dumb to get a Ph. D. but very few are too stupid to lay tile or be a welder.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
To trivialize a job in order to justify poverty level wages

Some jobs actually are trivial. That's why it's "minimum wage job" and not "minimum wage career."

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
We don't need a serf class in this country

Yes we do. We absolutely do because we like cheap things. In fact we need a serf class in other countries too. A serf class is a necessity because fries don't fry themselves, fruit doesn't pick itself, and floors don't sweep themselves.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 96):
He did go to a private school but he didn't finish college and neither did Steve Jobs, also when these guys were growing up the US had one of the best public education systems out there.

The reasons Jobs and Gates made billions and many other people did not has nothing to do with the education system. The difference was not in the government policy and the government does not get to lay a claim to their success. In short, they did build it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 99, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 94):
The minimum wage is probably the best ever example of forceful government policy having the completely opposite result of what it was intended to do.

The minimum wage in the US is so low that it cannot adversely impact any but the most incompetent business owners. THe proposed raise will basically have very little impact on normal business operations. We are not looking at a $50,000 a year minimum wage.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Not my problem.

Unless, of course, you happen to be diagnosed with one of those conditions were that are 20+ countries delivering better outcomes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
but very few are too stupid to lay tile or be a welder

Maybe you haven't seen a wide range or people with Downs, or CP.

In terns of welders or construction workers, I'm all for formal programs that deliver on the apprenticeship side, with a real tradesman being the result. I've used Qantas as an excellent example in the past. Start young and receive a decent wage when you graduate. And, by decent, I mean above the poverty line.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Some jobs actually are trivial. That's why it's "minimum wage job" and not "minimum wage career."

The issue isn't how long someone would stay in a job, though some would want to make it a career. The issue is the pay level. You pay below poverty levels and we taxpayers have to pitch in to cover your abusive actions. If you can't pay above the poverty line then you should be fined, or shut down.

Again, it may cost 5¢ to 10¢ more when you go for your Happy Meal. BFD.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Yes we do.

Careful, you are one drunk driver away from joining that group.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 100, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3112 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Maybe you haven't seen a wide range or people with Downs, or CP.

How much of the population do they make up?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
The issue isn't how long someone would stay in a job, though some would want to make it a career.

That is an issue because in the liberal economic narrative, people are stuck with such jobs and have no way out.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
You pay below poverty levels and we taxpayers have to pitch in to cover your abusive actions.

That's something that needs to end too.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
If you can't pay above the poverty line then you should be fined, or shut down.

If you can't earn above the poverty line, get a second job. If two jobs can't do it, get a third job. Or an education.

You can't have a bunch of people who have no skills and no education but still expect the government or business owners to pay them more than they are worth.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Careful, you are one drunk driver away from joining that group.

That doesn't change macroeconomics.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 101, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 95):
Cute picture of poverty in the US. At least you recognize that it's a problem.

Not my problem.

Is that because you're still living with your parents while you suck up federal benefits for schooling? Never did find out how your job search went—did you get to put your degree to work, or are you at the federal trough again for more schooling benefits?

Those in glass houses ...



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
but still expect the government or business owners to pay them more than they are worth.

Lol, I'm sure that irony isn't lost on others here besides myself.

Fred


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 103, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
"True equality" just means forcing everyone to be average. It's a terrible idea.

Wrong, we have plenty of rich people in here Finland too. If you truly deserve to be rich you will become rich even with a bit higher taxes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
Competition and inequality is what is responsible for every improvement in the world. Somebody wanted something. That's the bottom line. A caveman wanted to kill bigger animals to get more food so he made a spear and mankind was off and running. Greed is good.

If all these cavemen had been intelligent enough to stop fighting each other and had started to work for better future together we would probably already have colonies in space. Instead humans keep competing with each other creating wars and poverty. That's because of greed. You don't need to be greedy or wish to compete with other people to seek for improvements.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 104, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
The minimum wage in the US is so low that it cannot adversely impact any but the most incompetent business owners. The proposed raise will basically have very little impact on normal business operations. We are not looking at a $50,000 a year minimum wage.

You're look at it the wrong way. Businesses want to maximise profit. They'll do this by organising labour and capital in the most efficient way they can.

If the government increases the minimum wage, no, it won't put his company out of business, but he will think, what way can i organise my labour and capital in order to maximise my profits. Now that labour is more expensive, it will likely make sense to remove 1 or 2 of his least productive employees who now cost more to employ than the value they add to the company from their labour.

This particularly impacts the young who often don't need to earn a lot as they still live at home. But they have now lost their first step on the job ladder.

[Edited 2013-02-14 14:53:45]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 105, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 101):
Never did find out how your job search went%u2014did you get to put your degree to work, or are you at the federal trough again for more schooling benefits?

Funny you should mention that.

I did get an offer for a pretty decent job, but I turned it down because I didn't like the location. This was, in hindsight, a mistake. I learned a lesson, namely to not care about things besides money. Worrying about things other than the almighty dollar will only make me miserable, I'm much better off following the money. It was admittedly a lapse in judgement and I won't make that mistake again.

In the mean time, I have gotten a menial retail job. It pretty much sucks, is totally commodity labor, and offers little besides filling in a gap on my resume. It requires no skills whatsoever other than being alive and ambulatory, and a trained ape could do the job as well as me. The most difficult thing was going through the process and pretending that I don't plan on bolting at the first opportunity.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 103):
That's because of greed. You don't need to be greedy or wish to compete with other people to seek for improvements.

Everything good that's ever happened was because of greed. Even altruism can be traced back to selfishness and greed. Parents sacrifice for their kids so their family line can continue. Soldiers give their lives for their country so their country can survive and thrive. People act as part of a team so that the team, and by extension themselves, can win in whatever form that may be.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1248 posts, RR: 3
Reply 106, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3069 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
Soldiers give their lives for their country so their country can survive and thrive. People act as part of a team so that the team, and by extension themselves, can win in whatever form that may be.

Nah, soldiers fight for "their" country because they either earn money/other benefits by doing so or in case of common conscription because they are forced to do so. Or alternatively they might be brainwashed with nationalism and other such nonsense. Most of the time wars are fought for rich ruling elite to get more power and wealth, not for the people.

Countries rise and fall, personally I would never give away my life for any country.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 107, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 97):
Both the UK and the US have been spending their little hearts out over the last 10 years. But the embarrassing trade deficits say, we're not at all very productive any more.

I blame that on the decisions made my corporations in each country to move their production to places like China and India, places where the middle class is growing. We need to start making things again.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 97):
It is an increase in productivity, normally achieved through savings and capital investment that results in more spending thanks to surplus productivity. it's not the other way round.

Savings and Capital investment have been very limited since 2008 both from the private sector (where you ideally want it from) where corporations are still very profitable as the world's stock exchanges reflect and have loads of cash. Governments aren't investing either as many of them are taking Austerity measure.

As for savings there have been none at the personal and government level so we can't dip into them to invest or spend either and at the corporate level they sit on their cash because they don't see a return.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
The reasons Jobs and Gates made billions and many other people did not has nothing to do with the education system. The difference was not in the government policy and the government does not get to lay a claim to their success. In short, they did build it.

They were the visionaries and had the ideas but they had plenty of investments and surrounded themselves with the right people who could do things that they were not able to do well. Those investors took a chance on them as well and without them their success may not have been possible.

If you have seen the Social Network you will see that even a genius like Mark Zuckerburg would likely never have made Facebook what it is today without his supporting cast.

No one hits the top alone and if you do get the massive amount of money you seek out you will probably realize that your success was possible because of people who took a chance on you and your ideas be it investors, partners or employees.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 108, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
In the mean time, I have gotten a menial retail job.

After all that angst you put us through? At least you're honest about the mistake you made, but you really shouldn't be lecturing us on economics in future. When it comes down to it, you aren't able to put into motion that which you advocate so strongly in words.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 109, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 75):
How DO you quantify fair? As I mentioned:

In the SAME way you quantify so many other things. Look at how ROI is quantified for guideline.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
engaging in artificial redistribution of wealth is generally an awful thing to do.

Yet that is what the current what today's conservatives want.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
Strictly speaking, fair salary is whatever the market will bear. Whatever you can get away with paying is fair, not what some bleeding heart liberal believes a job is worth.

Whatever you can get away with. By your definition bank robbery is fine, just get away with it.

Fair salary isn't what the market will bear. Fair salary is based on the time, skill and risks involved in performing a task. But as usual right wingers want employees who are so starved they will take any job just to give their children a grain of rice.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 110, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 106):
Nah, soldiers fight for "their" country because they either earn money/other benefits by doing so or in case of common conscription because they are forced to do so.

All of that is still greed. Want steady pay or a free college education so you join the military? That's still greed. Want to not pay a fine or be imprisoned? That's still greed.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 107):
If you have seen the Social Network you will see that even a genius like Mark Zuckerburg would likely never have made Facebook what it is today without his supporting cast.

The government didn't do anything special for Zuckerburg that should make him have to pay more.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
At least you're honest about the mistake you made

Let's be clear that the mistake was not chasing the money. Letting things cloud economic judgement causes problems, it's much better to be greedy.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
but you really shouldn't be lecturing us on economics in future.

Sure I should. None of my experience changes reality.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
When it comes down to it, you aren't able to put into motion that which you advocate so strongly in words.

I still have a six figure education that I was quite successful with getting that isn't going anywhere. I have no intention of keeping a retail job even a day longer than necessary. Furthermore, none of the economic changes liberals want will help me, they'll all do the opposite.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
Whatever you can get away with. By your definition bank robbery is fine, just get away with it.

Nobody is saying that coercion is something that should be allowed. That's not the market and you know it.

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
Fair salary is based on the time, skill and risks involved in performing a task.

The market recognizes that. See how much a truck driver in Afghanistan gets paid versus one in the US.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 111, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 110):
I still have a six figure education that I was quite successful with getting that isn't going anywhere. I have no intention of keeping a retail job even a day longer than necessary. Furthermore, none of the economic changes liberals want will help me, they'll all do the opposite.

So your menial retail job pays more than $11 per hour?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 112, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 111):
So your menial retail job pays more than $11 per hour?

Nope. But that doesn't guarantee that I wouldn't have to be cut because others have to be paid more. Plus much of what I pay for involves minimum wage workers, so I'd have to pay more for a lot of things. It's just not worth it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 113, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 111):
So your menial retail job pays more than $11 per hour?

Nope.

If you can't see the inaccuracy in your previous statement, then there isn't anything you purvey on economic topics that can taken as relevant in real world applications.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 114, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 107):
I blame that on the decisions made my corporations in each country to move their production to places like China and India, places where the middle class is growing. We need to start making things again.

Its not the corporation's fault, they're just doing what's in their best interest like any rational person would.

When the government make a high tax and spend environment, with onerous regulations and a central bank giving everyone the illusion of wealth which is actually being fuelled by debt and debauchery of the local currency, it's not surprising that these corporations choose foreign workers. Even with geography working against them.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 115, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3042 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 114):
Its not the corporation's fault, they're just doing what's in their best interest like any rational person would.

Where are our manners? Welcome back to a.net, RomeoBravo. 



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 116, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 115):
Where are our manners? Welcome back to a.net, RomeoBravo. 

Thanks!  

I love a good heated political debate, so i think i'm going to enjoy this forum Big grin

[Edited 2013-02-14 15:54:54]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 117, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 113):
If you can't see the inaccuracy in your previous statement, then there isn't anything you purvey on economic topics that can taken as relevant in real world applications.

All it takes is recognition of the fact that this isn't something that exists in isolation. Increasing minimum wage increases costs, unless of course businesses try to increase productivity or just get by with fewer employees. You could raise minimum wage to $50 per hour, and a lot of people would lose their jobs and some would get raises.

There is also the fact that to cover the increased labor costs, I and everyone else will have to pay more for many things. Overall the change in policy is a loser. Let the market set the cost.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 118, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

Interesting stats, regardless of where you stand on the issue:

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 103):
If all these cavemen had been intelligent enough to stop fighting each other and had started to work for better future together we would probably already have colonies in space. Instead humans keep competing with each other creating wars and poverty. That's because of greed. You don't need to be greedy or wish to compete with other people to seek for improvements.

I wonder who'd be in charge? Who's interests will be best represented? How will this new world design avoid the power and corruption that has so far plagued us? I'm not asking that to be rude, I really am curious how we get from here to there?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 106):
Countries rise and fall, personally I would never give away my life for any country.

"Country" is another way of saying people.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
After all that angst you put us through? At least you're honest about the mistake you made, but you really shouldn't be lecturing us on economics in future. When it comes down to it, you aren't able to put into motion that which you advocate so strongly in words.

But he's willing to accept what comes his way, versus the moron who was on a radio show awhile back with a six figure student loan portfolio who refused to work for less than $100,000/year.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
The most difficult thing was going through the process and pretending that I don't plan on bolting at the first opportunity.

Well, you always accept life, so I hope you accept that attitudes like that are perceptable to your employers. The current ones may not care, particularly if you are little more than a monkey to them, but some will. Good luck with getting everything you want - sincerely.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 119, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 117):
All it takes is recognition of the fact that this isn't something that exists in isolation.

Let's see, going from $7.25/hr to $9.00/hr (for some reason I mistyped $11 in my earlier post) is an increase of almost 25%. Of course nothing works in a vacuum, but if you think the inflation rate would rise by 25% in tandem as a result, then you have more economic theory problems than first suspected.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 120, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 118):
But he's willing to accept what comes his way, versus the moron who was on a radio show awhile back with a six figure student loan portfolio who refused to work for less than $100,000/year.

Go back to some of the election threads from last November, and that's exactly what he said he was prepared to do. Emphatically. Across a multitude of threads. Flatly declaring that his education made him too good to take a job outside of what he was educated for, even to gain work experience.

And look at where we are now. ::chuckle::



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 121, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 118):
I hope you accept that attitudes like that are perceptable to your employers.

I'm not sure that's the case. I don't think I changed colors when people go on about "personal growth" or how all their managers started out as hourly. I have no intention of doing any of that unless they want to triple my pay in a hurry.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 119):
Let's see, going from $7.25/hr to $9.00/hr (for some reason I mistyped $11 in my earlier post) is an increase of almost 25%.

But how many people get the increase and how many are made redundant?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 120):
Flatly declaring that his education made him too good to take a job outside of what he was educated for, even to gain work experience.

It does. I have no interest in pretending that the job isn't completely beneath me, because it is. I am too good for it, I just have to pretend otherwise sometimes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 122, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

It really depends on the supply/demand curve how many people are made redundant.

http://www.wikinvest.com/images/thumb/5/5a/Price_floor.bmp/842px-Price_floor.bmp.png

It's not just about that though.

The whole point in wages (prices) is that they are signals to say where people should be looking for jobs. Low wages say, oversupply of this job, don't do this job, go do something else. High wages say the opposite.

If we go around fixing the prices of things, the very elegant way that the invisible hand tells people where to work is distorting, resulting in the sub-optimal allocation of resources. This means society isn't working as efficiently as it should be.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 123, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 121):
But how many people get the increase and how many are made redundant?

You're the one making the argument, so the burden is on you to provide those numbers to back up your assertions. What you're exposing is that the theories you're arguing are rooted merely in what you think might happen, not necessarily what will happen, and that you've not done sufficient research on this topic to argue it one way or the other. Well, other than it was proposed by a "liberal", and therefore bad. ::chuckle::



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 124, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
but very few are too stupid to lay tile or be a welder

Maybe you haven't seen a wide range or people with Downs, or CP.

Be careful when comparing persons with mental disabilities to people who are just plain stupid. There's a big difference.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
I learned a lesson, namely to not care about things besides money. Worrying about things other than the almighty dollar will only make me miserable, I'm much better off following the money.

I, too, believe cash is king, but never make a decision based on a single variable. I don't know what your degree is in or what classes you've taken, but anyone in business will know what every alternative needs to be weighed on decision matrix with no less than three variables. You and I just happen to weigh money a little more than the average person, but never discount other factors.

The best job I ever had was at RIM. Sure, they paid VERY well, but that was only a component of how awesome that job was. Other factors that weighed heavily into my experience was a great location and a young working environment (average age of my coworkers was about 25).

I'm not saying your way of thinking is wrong, because I don't know you or what's best for you, but just a little bit of perspective there.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 107):
I blame that on the decisions made my corporations in each country to move their production to places like China and India, places where the middle class is growing. We need to start making things again.

That happens because the US has made the labour market and overall business operating environment unattractive.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 107):
Those investors took a chance on them as well and without them their success may not have been possible.
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 107):
If you have seen the Social Network you will see that even a genius like Mark Zuckerburg would likely never have made Facebook what it is today without his supporting cast.

Those investors weren't the government. They were private investors and venture capitalists.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 108):
but you really shouldn't be lecturing us on economics in future. When it comes down to it, you aren't able to put into motion that which you advocate so strongly in words.

That's unnecessarily discriminatory. What about me then? I don't have a high-paying job right now that relates to my (almost finished) degree, so does that mean I can't school most of the people here in my field of study?

Quoting cmf (Reply 109):
In the SAME way you quantify so many other things. Look at how ROI is quantified for guideline.

The variables used in an ROI formula are easily quantifiable because they are based in dollars. How do you put a dollar figure on "fairness"?

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 122):

A perfect visual representation of the current situation.   



Flying refined.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 125, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
How much of the population do they make up?

More than you think. Remember that, by definition, half the population has an IQ under 100.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
That is an issue because in the liberal economic narrative

So everything that doesn't meet your hard right standards is "liberal"? I guess you get a thrill using that word, even if it's a moderate's position.

Real world is that there will always be a group of workers who will stay at the lower job levels because of their limited capacity. That doesn't mean that they cannot make a wage above the poverty line.

From a conservative position, why should we pay out federal benefits simply to allow company owners pay poverty level wages?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
people are stuck with such jobs and have no way out.

That goup has increased dramatically thanks to the Bush/Cheney Great Recession. 750,000 jobs lost a month

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
That's something that needs to end too.

End poverty level wages and it can be significantly reduced.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
If you can't earn above the poverty line, get a second job.

What we are talking about is employers paying above the poverty line. As long as we are allowing it we are pouring out a lot of taxpayer dollars for corporate welfare. That corporate welfare is what needs to end.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
You can't have a bunch of people who have no skills and no education but still expect the government or business owners to pay them more than they are worth.

If a job position isn't worth a wage above the poverty line then close that position down. If the employers play games then shut that company down through major fines.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 104):
You're look at it the wrong way

I don't think so. I'm against corporate welfare via allowing below poverty line wages. There is a huge difference between maximizing profits and operating a responsible company. I have no problems going after those companies who play games at the lower levels of employees.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 110):
All of that is still greed.

One of the saddest comments in this thread is this one - and your inability to understand that some people join the military because they actually believe in serving their country.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 104):
This particularly impacts the young who often don't need to earn a lot as they still live at home. But they have now lost their first step on the job ladder.

Flipping burgers may be considered by some to be a "kids" job, but adults are also working those positions - especially after Bush/Cheney's FUBARs.

If you want a special "kids wage" then tie it to a real apprenticeship program during the high school years with tradesman level jobs on graduation. I'll repeat the Qantas Maintenance Apprenticeship program again as a solid example.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
I learned a lesson, namely to not care about things besides money.

That's a great way to be branded in a company. Why should supervisors or managers promote you with that attitude?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
I did get an offer for a pretty decent job, but I turned it down because I didn't like the location.

So you didn't even consider that the ladders for success may well involve transfers to different locations?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
In the mean time, I have gotten a menial retail job.

The primary reason it is menial is because you make it so. A lot of retailers promote from within - some on a pretty rapid basis. I still recall one of the top CEOs in Australia who started with a "menial job" in retailing (right out of growing up in an orphanage) and going all the way to the top.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 121):
But how many people get the increase and how many are made redundant?

Take your burger flipper example. You might pay a few cents for your Happy Meal, but we all know that most owners won't be flipping burgers because of an increase in the minimum wage. Reality is that most people will not notice cost increases in their purchases because of an increase in minimum wages.

Some companies may try to cut staff. Delta Airlines is a classic example of that game - pax raised hell and Delta rapidly apologized and increased their employe count.

Maybe you need to remember that a company's competition will also face that cost increase and they are ready to take care of customers the greedy companies won't.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 126, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
That's unnecessarily discriminatory. What about me then? I don't have a high-paying job right now that relates to my (almost finished) degree, so does that mean I can't school most of the people here in my field of study?

You have to read my comments in context to all of the arguments he was making last November in relation to his education in aerospace engineering (I believe it was), the job market, and economic theories, accompanied with flat declarations that he wouldn't even consider a position outside of his educated field as an interim job, as it would be beneath him.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8957 posts, RR: 40
Reply 127, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

There is not one aspect of minimum wage laws that actually yields a social positive. It's a very well understood problem, but it's too easy for people like Obama to sell the idea to millions who are economically illiterate as something that is a good thing. After all, it's not like he is faking that he wishes well, and it's very feel-good talk, so it is easy to fall for it.

If you could solve poverty with minimum wage laws, this world would have been fixed a long time ago. The whole idea should be just plain silly, too good to be true to anyone with both of their feet on the ground.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 128, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
I'm not saying your way of thinking is wrong, because I don't know you or what's best for you, but just a little bit of perspective there.

I think I'm much better off paying less attention to jobs and more attention to just chasing the money. If I like doing something that much, I'll find a way to do it whether I'm getting paid for it or not.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
More than you think. Remember that, by definition, half the population has an IQ under 100.

And the vast majority of them have perfectly satisfactory careers. How many people are so disabled or just dumb that they can't have any job?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
So everything that doesn't meet your hard right standards is "liberal"? I guess you get a thrill using that word, even if it's a moderate's position.

Not at all, but liberals support economic policies like increasing minimum wage based on the ideas that people with low paying jobs will never move up and that things like retiring or supporting a family are God given rights.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
Real world is that there will always be a group of workers who will stay at the lower job levels because of their limited capacity.

Fine. That's their problem.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
From a conservative position, why should we pay out federal benefits simply to allow company owners pay poverty level wages?

We shouldn't.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
If a job position isn't worth a wage above the poverty line then close that position down.

That's already been happening, in case other people didn't notice jobs moving offshore.

I have no idea where this idea that everyone's job has to pay above poverty level came from. It sure didn't come from the free market. Either way, it is a damaging economic fallacy that must be exterminated.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
One of the saddest comments in this thread is this one - and your inability to understand that some people join the military because they actually believe in serving their country.

Why do you believe in serving your country? So YOUR country and YOUR culture can survive? So YOUR family can have a safe environment to live? So you leave a better place for YOUR children?

I'm not saying it's bad, but even selflessness and altruism ultimately is rooted in self centered interests.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
That's a great way to be branded in a company. Why should supervisors or managers promote you with that attitude?

Just don't tell them.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
So you didn't even consider that the ladders for success may well involve transfers to different locations?

It wasn't likely in this case. Either way, I made a mistake in even considering it relevant. From now on it has to be all about the Benjamins.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
The primary reason it is menial is because you make it so.

There's really no way in which it isn't. A middle schooler could do the work with no problems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
A lot of retailers promote from within - some on a pretty rapid basis.

It better be early and often if I'm expected to stick around.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 125):
Maybe you need to remember that a company's competition will also face that cost increase and they are ready to take care of customers the greedy companies won't.

...and all of that will ultimately have to come from the pockets of customers.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6593 posts, RR: 9
Reply 129, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

I think it's a good proposition, although he also mentioned a free trade agreement with the EU, so I'm guessing it's one chip to get that. I hope it fails because there is nothing in it for us, especially while the US wages a currency war by printing money like there is no tomorrow.

Minimum wage is 9,43€ an hour here (such a strange number is caused by it being indexed on inflation, and governments giving X or Y % more once in a while, not a round number). That's about 12$ at current rates, and is typically what McDonald's pay its waiters (with some benefits on top). Typically we work 35 hours only, though, so you have to take that into account. On the other hand this is not what the employers spend, since they also pay "taxes" for your pension, health care etc., and the worker also pays a little for that (a little at that wage anyway).

All in all it's a living wage, you have to be careful with your money and if you live in expensive cities get some government help to pay the rent or get a low rent flat.

As for McDonald's, they seem to survive fine, in fact France is their biggest market after the US (I know, a disgrace), and French McDonald's make more money than US ones.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 130, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2943 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 128):
...and all of that will ultimately have to come from the pockets of customers.

I ask, is this not how the system works? You make, we take, we pay. I do not remember any other way in this country, of course their is always bartering. Not very practical these days.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20500 posts, RR: 62
Reply 131, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2947 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 127):
There is not one aspect of minimum wage laws that actually yields a social positive.

The minimum wage was introduced in the U.S. in the 1930s in reaction to the proliferation of sweatshops, who employed mainly women and younger workers. Even if the minimum wage does nothing other than provide a barrier from one form of blatant workplace exploitation, then it does indeed yield a social positive.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 132, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 78):
Superb sourcing of an openly liberal think-tank to support a liberal perspective. There are moderate thinktanks out there you know...Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):But it is wonderful if people who make it big, get more of the pie. Read the charts.I read the charts. I don't particular like that they source all of their stats from a single reference point, but I'll tell you this: they don't exactly support your argument. Yes, it's true that the top 1% have rebounded the most during the recovery. But you know what else the statistics say? They say that the top 1% was also the hardest hit in the recession. The wealthy aren't safeguarded against anything, they are at a far greater risk to fluctuations in their wealth because for most of them it's entirely dependent on market strength. The good days are good for the rich, but the bad days are just as bad.

I wonder, did you read table 3 and below, about the share of wages from 1947 until ? It seems that the top have doubled their share in recent years, after many years of stability. I would appreciate some figures refuting my figures from the ultra liberal site that I provided. Please, nothing from Fox.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 133, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
Those investors weren't the government. They were private investors and venture capitalists.

I never mentioned the government and ideally you don't want the government doing that job because I don't think that is their duty.

What I am getting at is that when someone says "I built that" its not a one person effort as those venture capitalists took a risk in the success of most if not all successful entrepreneurs.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 124):
That happens because the US has made the labour market and overall business operating environment unattractive.

In a way yes so how can that be fixed?

Do we strip wages and regulations to those of China?

I do think we can get corporations to bring some jobs back for a tax incentive but I don't think they many businesses would pay the market wage in the west because its too high and our cost of living is much higher with no sign of dropping.

Note this isn't just unskilled work being off-shored, now a lot of highly technical work is being sent overseas.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 134, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 131):
The minimum wage was introduced in the U.S. in the 1930s in reaction to the proliferation of sweatshops, who employed mainly women and younger workers. Even if the minimum wage does nothing other than provide a barrier from one form of blatant workplace exploitation, then it does indeed yield a social positive.

I applaud your common sense. You hit it right on the head. Exploitation is the name of the game, then as well as now. Imagine no laws at all to protect from the exploiters.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 135, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting warri1 (Reply 134):
I applaud your common sense. You hit it right on the head. Exploitation is the name of the game, then as well as now. Imagine no laws at all to protect from the exploiters.

They are hated by a lot of people here but employee exploitation is the reason unions were created.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 136, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 135):
They are hated by a lot of people here but employee exploitation is the reason unions were created.

As a union member for 42 years, and a member here for a few years, trust me, I know about union hatred. There is no question, you are absolutely correct about exploitation being the cause of the union movement. The unions will rise again if this period of exploitation continues too long. The Robber Barons of the old days could learn something from the modern day Robber Barons. They were pikers back then. They did not own our governments as is the case now.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 137, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?

The price of gas at the pump is more dictated by gas taxes than distribution costs (the profit made by governments on a gallon of gas is higher than that of any member of the value chain). But of course, thinking that mandating inefficiencies somehow creates value is a central tenet of liberals, and should tell you everything you need to know about how economically illiterate they are. This from the party that believes ATMs somehow cause unemployment, so should not surprise you.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 138, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 137):
This from the party that believes ATMs somehow cause unemployment, so should not surprise you.

I suggest you ask the thousands of tellers laid off, forced into retirement, displaced because of them.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 139, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 59):
Do you think a state has a right to let citizens openly carry firearms?

You're trying to talk about 3 things at once; No one has said ANYTHING about "openly" carrying firearms; I don't just "think" Indiana has "the right" to issue me a permit to carry, I have it in my possession; but it's NOT to "openly carry"; that doesn't work; If I ran around "flaunting" the fact that I have a .40 caliber pistol dangling from my belt, it would cause many unneeded problems. That's exactly why permits are called "CC" permits; (which is the whole basis of citizens "carrying" that you "gun grabbers" still just don't seem to understand; we can explain it to you until we're blue in the face, but you STILL "don't get it".
There always HAVE been, and there always WILL be, criminals running around armed with weapons; they have weapons for one reason.......to commit crimes with; (read: ROB PEOPLE) If all the customers of a particular store are known to NEVER carry weapons, (because of security searches before entering), and the customers of the store next door were known to be 50% armed and trained, the second store would have FAR LESS problems with armed robberies that the first store; criminals may be dumb, but they're NOT completely stupid; they would much prefer to rob a person they know will be un-armed, than to risk robbing someone who has a 50% chance of being armed, and trained to "shoot back"; That's really a very simple concept; there's only ONE reason if anyone doesn't "grasp" that concept; ( they prefer to remain ignorant ) (and vulnerable)
Some people just don't wish to be "vulnerable".

The sad fact in all of this "right to bear arms" bru-ha-ha is...........so very many of you "gun grabbers" are too "timid" to defend yourselves, to lazy to train yourselves in self defense, and knowing that you will NEVER have a means of self defense when the "need arises", you're jealous ! You don't want ANYONE ELSE to have that ability either. (I can just hear all of the screaming and yelling now, when you read this) you have never faced a criminal with a weapon, when you were empty handed; I have; and I have no intention of ever allowing it to happen again. Just keep one thing in mind; if you ever come to Indiana, and if you ever get the "urge" to rob someone here, be advised..........MANY potential "victims" here have NO INTENTION of becoming victims. Many citizens in Indiana are fully prepared to "shoot back", should then need arise.

Do you really think that if it became known that EVERY airliner had 10 armed guards aboard on every trip, that terrorists would still try an occasional high-jacking ? No they wouldn't; they would "re-group", and try to come up with a safer means attacking our airplanes.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 59):
Cannot even imagine what you could possibly mean by this, much less something relevant to Oregon gas. My point, if you've been to Oregon in the last 63 years, you've encountered this. Spoiler alert: I don't live in Oregon.

News flash to you, genius: I couldn't possibly care LESS where you live ! ( if I were you, I wouldn't "let it out" where you live either, because any potential robber is going to know that you're an "easy target"!
As far as "what you can't imagine".............I'm sure there are many things that you "can't imagine"; (perhaps you should consider taking a "course" to improve your "imagination" ?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 69):
Canada is a fairly conservative country, yet we have what Americans fearfully know as "socialized healthcare" ("universal healthcare" to us) that actually works quite well. The US would be better off to take a mo

Yes.......tell us all about your health care that "works so well" ! (so "well" the Canadiens must sometimes WAIT for 2 or 3 years to have a surgical procedure performed, that is likely to be fatal if not performed "shortly"; you can rattle on all day about hiow great "your" health care is, but you're talking to someone that SEES the constant line of Canadiens who come to the U.S. EVERY DAY to have procedures performed, that they would have to wait 2 years for in Canada. ( Incidentally, ever hear of "Canada Drugs" in Winnepeg ? I'm a customer of theirs.) Believe me, we Americans know ALL ABOUT how "great" YOUR "socialized medicine" is !

Quoting pvjin (Reply 87):
'm really glad we have these state funded universities and institutes in here Finland, they allow even poor people with normal abilities to educate themselves to higher levels and that way obtain higher social status instead of staying poor like in the US.

I'm really glad you have all of those "state funded" universities also ! But I'm afraid I have bad new for you; you don't have a CLUE as to how "higher education" in the U.S. "works" ! Not a CLUE" ! You're talking to a non-college educated man, whose 5 "off spring" ALL have college educations, none of them are "poor", (as you seem to think everyone in the U.S. is), and at age 80, I'm NOT on "public assistance" myself ! So how do you account for that ? How do you think we ever "survived" without "socialism" as you put it ?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 91):
I've complained about the cost of living in Norway, but when push comes to shove I know I'm far better off here than anywhere else.

I'm glad you're happy there, Rob ! ( The cost of airfare to visit your family in N.Z. must be a "bitch" though ?)

[quote=pvjin,reply=93]Then tell me how somebody whose parents have barely enough money to eat and have some place to live could study in some good US university?

I think I've pretty well covered that already; You know, anyone reading your question will immediately realize that you are attempting to talk about something which you very obviously know absolutely NOTHING about ! Your "thinking" is completely negative! Every College and University in the U.S. is FILLED with students whose parents are; everything from "dirt poor", "slightly poor", "not so poor", to "getting by O.K", and all the way up to "filthy rich" ! We don't try to FORCE everyone to be in the exact same economic situation as you do in Europe; and you know what ? We're really GLAD all of you folks in Europe are doing so well ! WE really are; But if it's not too much trouble, please explain this to me; If Europe is in such marvelous economic shape, if it's the veritable "Paradise" that you paint it to be.............then why in the hell are so many people from Europe still FLOCKING to the U.S. every year, seeking to "improve their lives" ? I really would love to hear your "explanation" of that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 93):
've seen plenty of news from the US about people who struggle to get enough money to study in universities. Obviously those aids aren't big enough or are only for people with exceptionally good abilities. In my opinion anybody with average abilities (for that whatever education level they are joining) should be able to get enough of those aids to study, not just those who are way better than average. Only then there can be true equality.

You know........I had fully intended to try and address every one of your "questions"; but after reading through the last one again, I'm afraid it's an "exercise in futility"! I'm sure anyone else reading that last statement / question, will understand what I'm talking about; There are a couple of things that come to mind; such as.........."you can give a man fish, and he won't be hungry today".................or.........."you can TEACH a man to fish, and he "should" be able to feed himself (at least until he gets tired of eating fish ?) ...........or..........."you can spend 10 years trying to teach trigonometry to a three toed sloth, and he will probably still just go hang in a tree" ! (in which case, you will have just wasted 10 years, much like I have no doubt just wasted 10 minutes ?)

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 140, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

http://t.money.msn.com/now/would-a-dollar9-minimum-wage-hurt-mcdonalds


Here we go, whoa is me. Let the employee's collect food stamps, and welfare so we can eat a not so cheap burger. I wonder who pays for welfare and food stamps in the end? Is that government welfare for McDonald's etc?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4383 posts, RR: 29
Reply 141, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2866 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 139):

You're trying to talk about 3 things at once; No one has said ANYTHING about "openly" carrying firearms; I don't just "think" Indiana has "the right" to issue me a permit to carry, I have it in my possession; but it's NOT to "openly carry"; that doesn't work

Jesus. No. You completely miss the point. I'm not starting a gun argument, i'm not talking about gays and i'm hardly even talking about gas pumping. I only used open carry as an example because many states have it, and many do not. I'm talking about your completely self-serving and erratic views of federal vs. state power. Your opinions on it simply reflect your whims on a particular issue rather than any overarching principle or ideology.

You are the one who said you don't think Oregon has the "right" to have their own gas pumping laws? Why not? What laws shouldn't states be allowed to make? Do you find this law unconstitutional? Even someone who generally prefers federal consistency (like me) realizes states have much power, and this is perfectly within their authority.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 139):

The sad fact in all of this "right to bear arms" bru-ha-ha is...........so very many of you "gun grabbers" are too "timid" to defend yourselves, to lazy to train yourselves in self defense, and knowing that you will NEVER have a means of self defense when the "need arises", you're jealous ! You don't want ANYONE ELSE to have that ability either. (I can just hear all of the screaming and yelling now, when you read this) you have never faced a criminal with a weapon, when you were empty handed; I have; and I have no intention of ever allowing it to happen again. Just keep one thing in mind; if you ever come to Indiana, and if you ever get the "urge" to rob someone here, be advised..........MANY potential "victims" here have NO INTENTION of becoming victims. Many citizens in Indiana are fully prepared to "shoot back", should then need arise.

Wow, you really are in love with hearing yourself talk, aren't you. BTW, that diatribe was relevant to precisely nothing.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 139):

News flash to you, genius: I couldn't possibly care LESS where you live ! ( if I were you, I wouldn't "let it out" where you live either, because any potential robber is going to know that you're an "easy target"!

Yes, so listen here all you potential robbers- be sure to make that correlation that since I recognize the State of Oregon's ability to make their own laws pursuant to the Constitution, i must not be a gun owner. You really are a fallacy machine, Charlie. If only you cared.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 139):

As far as "what you can't imagine".............I'm sure there are many things that you "can't imagine"; (perhaps you should consider taking a "course" to improve your "imagination" ?

OUCH!!



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlinewarri1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 142, posted (1 year 6 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?p...2914e4-d6f7-4e68-bf36-a3b4a0ef3df7


Is this an ultra liberal site also? I am sorry if it is. There seems to b e a pattern to all these articles about the top of the heap raking it in while minimum wage workers get nothing but hard work.

[Edited 2013-02-14 19:33:47]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.