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Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3449 times:
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The previous thread was getting quite long so a second thread is being started to continue the discussion. The previous thread can be found here Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage (by JoePatroni707 Feb 13 2013 in Non Aviation) .
Thanks
Pat


You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
248 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5438 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3399 times:

DarkSnowyNight: "The thinking that business will close up and die off, or lay people off, or cut hours, etc, is far more based in panic, or worse, deliberately misleading greed, than actual fact. There's no doubt that increasing payroll on that scale will force changes, but that's what profit margins are for. If they can't handle this, they were likely poorly managed in the first place."

Hmmm....Well, all I can tell you is what I've seen dealing with a high increase in the minimum wage in Washington State, currently $9.19/hour. Businesses will absolutely look to raising prices in order to mitigate the cost increase. They will look to reduce other costs as well, such as managing utilties better, shortening hours open, using cheaper products or ingredients, etc. And, yes, they will also cut employee hours by increasing productivity and changing how they do things. And yes, they will offer raises that are fewer and farther between, saving them for the most valuable employees.

How any of that equates "greed" is beyond me. I know that many of these small/mid size business owners are doing pretty well financially, but even the ones doing really well are still not living some sort of lavish lifestyle. In fact, they work their butts off, are extremely intelligent, tenacious, talented people. They provide jobs, take their businesses seriously, and strive to reward their deserving employees in a variety of ways, financially and otherwise. But, by the very nature of their businesses, they are tapping unskilled, untrained, often uneducated people who would otherwise likely not have a job because they lack the skills necessary.

Calling someone like that "greedy" or suggesting that their businesses are "poorly managed" because the government says they should arbitrarily be paying their employees more seems really unfair. In fact, these businesses are often providing a lower cost product that people who don't have a lot of many can actually afford. Is it their fault that oil has skyrocketed, that the economy hit the skids, that THEIR suppliers have jacked up their prices, that the utility companies just keep increasing their rates, etc?

No, it's the greedy bastard of a small businessman that is leading to the destruction of our otherwise great nation. Right.

DSN: "A lot of the same objections were lofted to the creation of OSHA, the 40 work week, and just about every safety standard ever passed. And yes, financial changes and adaptations had to commence. But that's just the way things are, to put it simply."

I agree. As a conservative, I'm embarrassed that our representatives (conservative) are not leading the charge in more of these areas. In the end, though, it's the push and pull of the political system that creates checks and balances.

DSN: "Less so, I think 25% unemployment (be it from this or anything else) is a long-term unsustainable proposition. As one company collapses or cuts staff to the bone, another will invariably move in to take its place, for the simple reason that there was a reason the dying company existed in the first place. Markets change periodically anyway, and most companies adapt to this. There weren't massive scale unemployment as a result of fuel price increases, but there was some shifting involved. People still need and want things, and as long as this never changes, unemployment on that scale will not increase as a result of wage increases. Places that have unemployment at that level do so for a host of other reasons."

I don't think it's a zero sum game, so if someone thinks that it will balance itself out, I think they are sadly mistaken. Not just because of a big increase in the minimum wage, but because it's just one part of a big, growing increase that is hitting the bottom line of many small and mid sized businesses.

WestJet747: "I have no expectation of you or others to separate your faith from your daily life, but how does it in any way impact your economy-based political preferences?"

It's usually a package deal. Economic policies are shaped by politicians. Electing a politician is about more than just economics. There are a host of issues, including those that impact my personal and religious beliefs, that will guide my decision. It doesn't mean that I always vote for the best person. Anymore, I feel like I'm voting for the "least bad" person. But, yes, I think that it affects economic policy because it's all a package deal when electing politicians.

Ken777: "If tips don't take them past the minimum wage then they are making starvation wages. They get stiffed on some of their tables and it's a slow night and you've hit the starvation level without a problem."

Yes, and that's no different than anyone else. Some days are bad. You get sent home early. It's raining so the roofing company can't work that day. Etc. By and large, I'm doubting that most servers end the day making below minimum, but if you have a link stating the contrary I'm happy with that.

Ken777: "In a lot of companies (especially in the food business) the "entry level" tag is held onto like it's some religion. Actually it's simply greed."

I just have no respect for this out-of-hand label of greed being put on these businesses. It is "entry level" work. They don't need schooling. They don't need previous experience. They don't need a special skillset. Often they don't need to speak English. What ISN'T entry level about that?

If you think these businesses are earning some exhorbitant profit, then I'd like to know where it is, because by and large most of these restaurants are feeling the squeeze from all directions. And remember, many, many, many of these locations are privately owned. Many are single or small group locations, such as local chains or multi-unit owners. And if you check Craigslist, you'll see that numerous locations are failing all the time.

CMF: "If the only way for a company to survive is by exploiting employees then they are on life support anyway. Better let them go under. If the need is there people will pay the higher price needed to support the operation of the remaining company(s). That is capitalism."

Yes, because paying them the federally mandated minimum wage TO START is exploiting them.  

CMF: "I think your numbers are wrong but let's pretend they are right. I suggest if a company can't handle this very low minimum wage then the company will go under soon anyway and thus the real difference is that the problems are dealt with faster."

Well, my numbers are likely wrong because I was making them up for example.

I'm not trying to suggest that the businesses will go under right away. I'm suggesting, though, that the workers are going to carry the brunt of the financial impact through reduced hours (which ObamaCare is going to lead to anyways) and fewer and small raises. For some businesses, though, the impact of EVERYTHING being thrown at them is indeed going to cause them to fail, flounder, or stagnate. How that helps all of these people that want to work and are thrilled to have a job is beyond me, but oh well.

-Dave



Totes my goats!
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply LastThread):
I can give you a link covering this I am sure. To make it simple, a parent needs money, so they send their 10 year old son or daughter to work in a sweatshop or whatever term you want to use. The child is being exploited, by his parents and the workplace. The parent wants or needs money, the shop owner knows this, he uses this desperation to offer less money for the labor of a child. Both parties are guilty of exploitation. The child does not want to work in a shop, the child want to be a child, be with their family, play. The child is being exploited. The same if a child was sent to a house of Prostitution. The history of exploited children is as old as the history of labor. We now have laws that prevent that in the US, not perfect, but better than it was here and elsewhere

Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents. Well i would agree that is exploitation, it is exploitation by the parents as they are forcing the child to do something they don't want to do.

However, it is being assumed that the kid doesn't want to work, i think in a lot of situations he would, because, again, it's better than the alternative. Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
Your description is wrong. It is a ban on exploitation.

It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties. As i have stated you can't force employers to hire someone for more than they're worth. They just won't hire them because they're not stupid. Will you buy $5 off of me for $10?

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
If a company has someone employed and can't get enough value out of them to pay minimum wage they have bigger problems than someone trying to slack.

They often can for the first 3, it's the 4th or 5th that can't. Why is that, because there's often diminishing marginal utility for each additional employee. By increasing the price of an employee, the optimal number of staff at a company might go from 4/5 to 3, so people are going to lose their jobs. Some, might get a payrise, but at the expense of others who lose their job completely.

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
I absolutely think it would have been a lot worse without government intervention.

But the government caused this crisis by centrally planning the price of money in order to inflate an artificial boom. It wouldn't have been a lot worse because it wouldn't have existed.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3363 times:
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Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties. As i have stated you can't force employers to hire someone for more than they're worth. They just won't hire them because they're not stupid. Will you buy $5 off of me for $10?

Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it? Because in this wonderful free-market economy there are just hundreds of other jobs lying there in wait for people? Not always true, and it comes down to situations where people have no option but to accept near-criminally low wages or starve. There is a balance to be struck, and there are plenty of people out there willing to allow terrible working conditions and menial pay in the cause of their own personal enrichment. Some degree of regulation is totally necessary.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it?

Paying people the market rate is what is fair. If someone's paying you far less than you're worth, all you need to do is throw in the towel and go and work for someone else.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Because in this wonderful free-market economy there are just hundreds of other jobs lying there in wait for people?

We do not have a wonderful free market economy. I certainly don't condone much of the current regime, however, i'm very keen to see movement in the right direct.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Not always true, and it comes down to situations where people have no option but to accept near-criminally low wages or starve. There is a balance to be struck, and there are plenty of people out there willing to allow terrible working conditions and menial pay in the cause of their own personal enrichment. Some degree of regulation is totally necessary.

You are basically speaking of this mythical race to the bottom, which in short doesn't exist. The only way companies could continually force progressively worse working conditions and pay on their staff is if that company had the monopoly on employing people.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents ... Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.

LOL! Go back to my Reply #131 and the argument you made to it in Reply #148 in the original thread. Changing the goalposts? Really. It was very clear what we were talking about, the foundation for the minimum wage law in the U.S., and the usual victims of sweatshop owners at the time.

Regardless, sweatshops have been considered an indignation by most of the respondents to the thread, no matter where sweatshops may be found, nor whom they may exploit, judging by the other replies in subsequent posts.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
LOL! Go back to my Reply #131 and the argument you made to it in Reply #148 in the original thread. Changing the goalposts? Really. It was very clear what we were talking about, the foundation for the minimum wage law in the U.S., and the usual victims of sweatshop owners at the time.

I'm a little confused at what you're getting at here? But i will try and cover the potential bases.

I have always maintained that the use of force is immoral. But up until we started talking about parents forcing their children to work, force never came into it.

And yes we might have been talking about the US then, but are you really suggesting that depression-era US was a time of prosperity compared to today?


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3345 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):

Regardless, sweatshops have been considered an indignation by most of the respondents to the thread, no matter where sweatshops may be found, nor whom they may exploit, judging by the other replies in subsequent posts.

No, it's ok - they don't exist apparently:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):

You are basically speaking of this mythical race to the bottom, which in short doesn't exist. The only way companies could continually force progressively worse working conditions and pay on their staff is if that company had the monopoly on employing people.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
No, it's ok - they don't exist apparently:

I must say, the tone of this post is very disrespectful. And it's not really clear what your point is.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3335 times:
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Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):

I must say, the tone of this post is very disrespectful. And it's not really clear what your point is.

The point is that I find it pretty ridiculous to suggest that the circumstances in which people get exploited are 'mythical'. The fact is that in some places companies virtually do have a monopoly, in practical terms. Sorry if you think it came across as disrespectful, but for clarity - it is your arguments here that I am taking against, not you personally.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

BMI727 in previous thread:
"So does the economy, since that's one more person unemployed. It's like saying that unless you can buy a Mercedes, you shouldn't buy a car."

No, minimum wage isn't like giving everyone a Mercedes. It is like requiring every car to have steering wheel, indicators, and brakes.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
Yes, because paying them the federally mandated minimum wage TO START is exploiting them.

Never suggested that. However others did. I stated minimum wages are there to avoid exploitation.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
I'm not trying to suggest that the businesses will go under right away. I'm suggesting, though, that the workers are going to carry the brunt of the financial impact through reduced hours (which ObamaCare is going to lead to anyways) and fewer and small raises. For some businesses, though, the impact of EVERYTHING being thrown at them is indeed going to cause them to fail, flounder, or stagnate. How that helps all of these people that want to work and are thrilled to have a job is beyond me, but oh well.

US companies are very good at making employees taking the brunt while managers and owners carry on like normal. One reason why income disparity is growing.

I'm not a fan of Obama care. I don't think healthcare should be connected to companies. This country has chosen an extremely costly way to handle health and Obama care doesn't make any real changes.

You are right in that the combination of higher salaries and health costs combined with everything else going up will cause some companies to go under. Most of them would even without minimum wage and Obama care. This just brings in the cleaning crew faster.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties.

No it isn't. As I mentioned above, it is the equivalent of requiring cars to have critical equipment.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
They often can for the first 3, it's the 4th or 5th that can't. Why is that, because there's often diminishing marginal utility for each additional employee. By increasing the price of an employee, the optimal number of staff at a company might go from 4/5 to 3, so people are going to lose their jobs. Some, might get a payrise, but at the expense of others who lose their job completely.

If the job can be done with three employees then they should not employee the fourth and fifth person. Let the last two get jobs that are productive.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
But the government caused this crisis by centrally planning the price of money in order to inflate an artificial boom. It wouldn't have been a lot worse because it wouldn't have existed.

???


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
The point is that I find it pretty ridiculous to suggest that the circumstances in which people get exploited are 'mythical'. The fact is that in some places companies virtually do have a monopoly, in practical terms. Sorry if you think it came across as disrespectful, but for clarity - it is your arguments here that I am taking against, not you personally.

First of all no company has a monopoly on work. And secondly even in places which currently have one provider of sweatshops (which is not the same thing as a monopoly) the standards aren't continually going down because at some point people would just quit and take local jobs or go back to farming.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
If the job can be done with three employees then they should not employee the fourth and fifth person. Let the last two get jobs that are productive.

But these jobs don't exist. Otherwise they'd already be in them.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
???

What's not to understand, the government distorted the most crucial price in the economy, the price of money, we all thought we were richer than we were, channelled our money into housing and stop being productive, and now we have gone bust.

[Edited 2013-02-18 03:42:08]

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3323 times:
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Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
(which is not the same thing as a monopoly)

For practical purposes it can be. There is this lovely idea that everyone is completely mobile and free to drift wherever they want to find work, but for the most disadvantaged in the world this is often not the case.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
the standards aren't continually going down because at some point people would just quit and take local jobs or go back to farming.

I haven't actually said that there is a constant lowering of standards. But, if your definition of acceptable wages is one step above subsistence farming then it explains your opinions well.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
I haven't actually said that there is a constant lowering of standards. But, if your definition of acceptable wages is one step above subsistence farming then it explains your opinions well.

Acceptable is subjective. It is better than the alternatives, and therefore, it can not be seen as a bad thing. Over time of course there will be more and more alternatives. Unless, opinions such as the ones viewed in this thread result in the banning of outsourcing things to 3rd worlds countries.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
But these jobs don't exist. Otherwise they'd already be in them.

If they don't exists there can't be a loss...

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
What's not to understand, the government distorted the most crucial price in the economy, the price of money, we all thought we were richer than we were, channelled our money into housing and stop being productive, and now we have gone bust.

You simplify too much. But even so you clearly state we can't count on companies to be responsible.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

It's interesting that this wage raise always brings about such a debate .
This is not as if we are setting the average work rate for workers. We are setting the base working wage that a worker should earn. Most workers can and will earn more based on skills and experience. Those that make minimum are either entry workers (teenagers) , or extremely low skilled. Either way, there is a point where the minimum does not keep pace with inflation, and it becomes exploitive on the part of emloyers that can raise prices and reduce costs due to inflation and delationary pressures to force thos entry level and low skilled workers to accept a below value pay scale.


if you go by a goalpost analogy. the 2013 Mnimum wage worker is behind all of those that worked at minimum wage in the 1960's and 70's. I pay more in taxes than a current minimum wage employee can make in a year.



Yes there are costs to it, and I even think some companies , especially fast food, that depend on low labor rates will pass those costs onword. However that is the nature of inflation, and you need to raise the bar for the minimum as the maximum keeps going up. To not even want to vote on it , shows the current ignorance of certain members of Congress. They didn't hold up the minimum wage increases when I was getting furloughs and pay cuts in 2009 during the recession. So why not have a good healthy debate about raising the minimum wage and what rate seems fare?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3250 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it?

But "how much they're worth" in this case is just an arbitrary government decision, rather than anything based on the market.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
No, minimum wage isn't like giving everyone a Mercedes. It is like requiring every car to have steering wheel, indicators, and brakes.

And as a result, you'll sell fewer cars since some people can't afford all that while not allowing motorcycles or mopeds.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
But "how much they're worth" in this case is just an arbitrary government decision, rather than anything based on the market.

But that is the point of the minimum wage. It is all about arbitrary. Either the worker is an unknown quantity in terms of skill set, or the job requires the bare minimum treatment. Either way, a floor has to be set to make sure the worker is not being underpaid or exploited. Those that have skills will find advancement, and those without will continue to muddle.

The very real minimum wage is always zero, people can choose not to work. Those that do work should be afforded a bit of protection from employers predatory habits.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8835 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3247 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents. Well i would agree that is exploitation, it is exploitation by the parents as they are forcing the child to do something they don't want to do.

However, it is being assumed that the kid doesn't want to work, i think in a lot of situations he would, because, again, it's better than the alternative. Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.




I am guilty of using my country as a barometer for all things good and evil. This is where I live after all. I know that we are very guilty of exploitation past and present. I feel for exploited from everywhere. It is no different even though local conditions may vary. A hungry stomach changes everything, In an impoverished country, even a child will do things out of desperation. In this country things have changed radically over the years, Thank the good Lord for that.

I am a fan of historical photographs. I suggest you may check some of them from the days of child labor here and elsewhere, poverty and exploitation has a face, none of them smiling, young or old. A hungry stomach make one forget that they are being exploited for awhile. I cite the French and American Revolutions as an example. I cite the coal miner. In England and the US and elsewhere. The diamond miner in Africa. They are not called blood diamonds for nothing. It does no good to use semantics, exploitation is exploitation



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8835 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
The very real minimum wage is always zero, people can choose not to work. Those that do work should be afforded a bit of protection from employers predatory habits.

Amen brother. People need protection from predators of any kind. All are not equal for sure, some need more protection, that is why we have laws and rules because of predators, criminal and economic who take advantage of the weak and needy, or just down on their luck for any reason, such as an economic collapse as occurred here. I will not get into that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
*emotional rhetoric*

Their lives may have been bad by today's standards, but think about how much worse they'd been if they didn't have jobs at all. That is what you are arguing for, more starvation, more misery. It's an odd position to hold tbh. Strange that you can have such contempt for your fellow man.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3225 times:

RomeoBravo : I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve on a thread about raising the minimum wage, if you don't recognize the need for a minimum wage to begin with.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):

RomeoBravo : I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve on a thread about raising the minimum wage, if you don't recognize the need for a minimum wage to begin with.

If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

I think a lot of people are just refusing to hear it because Obama said it so it must be true. I know politics is extremely partisan over there, like it is here. But i don't really have a dog in that fight.

[Edited 2013-02-18 09:05:34]

User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 25):
If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

So here is the problem with your argument .

In the USA, it is called the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it is indexed for Inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit


It would actually behoove the Government to drastically increase minumum wage in order to reduce the EITC.

As you can see based on the phaseouts, those in the 10% and 15% brackets loose 21% of their tax credit for every dollar over the maximum threshold .......which is currently above minimum wage. And this is a tax credit, which means that if the person has less taxes than the value, they get a refund and can actually pay negative taxes.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 26):
So here is the problem with your argument .

In the USA, it is called the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it is indexed for Inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit


It would actually behoove the Government to drastically increase minumum wage in order to reduce the EITC.

As you can see based on the phaseouts, those in the 10% and 15% brackets loose 21% of their tax credit for every dollar over the maximum threshold .......which is currently above minimum wage. And this is a tax credit, which means that if the person has less taxes than the value, they get a refund and can actually pay negative taxes.

You might have noticed that i have been suggesting the Negative income tax in this very thread, multiple times, which sounds like a very similar thing to the EITC.

The NIT does not kill jobs, nor the incentives to earn more. It is still slightly distortionary, but is vastly superior to the minimum wage, which economically speaking is a car crash policy.

Again the flaw in your logic is you think that people will earn more due to the minimum wage. They won't, they'll just get sacked (or more realistically, not hired) and then you'll be spending even more in benefits, and the country will be even less productive and worse off.


25 Ken777 : Just because a job position doesn't need a higher education or years of training there is no reason why we need to push wages well below the poverty
26 casinterest : The flaw in your thinking is that you overthink what I think. My point about minimum wage revolves around keeping pace with the state of the economy.
27 cmf : The loss of tying up people in low paying jobs that require supplement income from government or charities is much higher. I'm very happy brakes are
28 BMI727 : But it does. If I have a job that can be done by literally any adult with a pulse and a job that requires specific skills and education, guess which
29 Post contains images RomeoBravo : You should be putting it down then . The US economy is in dire straits and is going further and further down the toilet. Of course, you shouldn't nee
30 Ken777 : The minimum wage is simply one cost factor for a business owner. To give it more weight than changing rates for, say, electricity, demonstrates a lac
31 AeroWesty : That's all we needed to know, really. Someone who used to post here signs on again to show us the light, because he feels we are all mindless lapdogs
32 casinterest : It should exist to provide a floor for predatory employers. The natural market economy takes care of most workers as their value increases. The minim
33 Ken777 : Business cut employee counts for a lot of reasons, sometimes they cut too deep. Delta was the classic example of cutting too deep - their customer se
34 RomeoBravo : Err, no, it isn't. How's the deficit? How's the dollar? How's the trade balance? The US (and my country just in case you think i'm picking) are in th
35 casinterest : No doubt about it. Competition can make decisions very difficult. My own industry saw the effects of it in 2000. Big companies like Lucent and Nortel
36 BMI727 : We don't have to pay welfare, minimum wage or not. Pull out the net, it's too expensive. They need protecting for a reason. Why ensure that people ar
37 casinterest : Those items are what they are. But the economy is improving. You are posting items that are results of policy, not the economy. Yeah, I don't quite b
38 casinterest : people that are a warm body are not working, earning zero dollars. Folks that due the bare minimum to stay employed should earn a minimum wage. Those
39 RomeoBravo : No, they are crucial indicators of a healthy economy. Though it does make me wonder what measure you're using that makes you think it's recovering. N
40 Ken777 : That is going to have a huge, positive impact on both the economy and the crime rate. With 300 million guns in this country you really want to push p
41 Post contains links casinterest : http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm http://www.businessinsider.com/where...-us-economy-is-at-right-now-2013-2 Fair use excerpt "What this means is that
42 AeroWesty : To use one item on your list, the dollar itself is a horrible example of an indicator of a healthy U.S. economy as a standalone item, as it is a glob
43 RussianJet : Have you ever considered the tiny, remote possibility that they just *might* disagree with you and think that the principle of a minimum wage is actu
44 Post contains images AeroWesty : It does sniff of 'having lost the argument, lashing out in frustration,' doesn't it?
45 Post contains images Darksnowynight : So are the percentages the feds use to calculate your income tax. Point? In your case, likely neither. The problem is that most companies would pay f
46 RomeoBravo : The US economy is consuming far more than it is producing and is living off of the last dregs of debt and inflation it can get away with, which is go
47 AeroWesty : What that opinion has to do with the minimum wage—the topic of this thread, and which has been with us through every boom and bust cycle since the
48 BMI727 : I think more of the lower classes than you do. They aren't savages. Because they either have to be unnecessary or things that should have happened be
49 RomeoBravo : The most prosperous economy is that where the people are paid the market rate for their Labour, this means that people and resources are organised in
50 RussianJet : It's not all the same. Again, if you can't afford to pay people a living wage then you shouldn't be in business. Congrats on that. Either that, or yo
51 AeroWesty : There is nothing counter-productive to prosperity to having a government-set minimum wage. The boom years, which will occur with or without a minimum
52 tugger : Please site a source for this. I cannot find any truth in this. Tugg
53 BMI727 : That's a slightly different argument. Attempting to stop re-adjustment and market correction doesn't actively make the economy worse, but it does kee
54 Darksnowynight : Oh, ok. So don't start a project because it should have been done already. That makes a lot of sense... Didn't say that. There are gov't enforced cos
55 Post contains images RussianJet : Something tells me he knows that.
56 BMI727 : No, you should have been smart enough to do it before. Of course sometimes those decisions have to be made when the budget is being overrun by entitl
57 RussianJet : That logic assumes that all bosses are scrupulous to actually pay people what they're worth, when in many cases even if they can afford to they may n
58 Post contains links and images Mir : That's the crux of the issue - we could tie the minimum wage to inflation and end all future discussions about raising it. This isn't a question of w
59 Darksnowynight : It shouldn't be. It's the most important part of this. They're working citizens and this is the minimum wage. That means they're worth it by default.
60 BMI727 : Only if there is exactly one potential employer. Otherwise the worker can find another employer who will pay them what they are worth. Of course, if
61 RussianJet : Not necessarily. And in any case, in some locations and where people are naturally not very mobile due to their limited means and circumstances, choi
62 cmf : I am? You are too focused on unemployment rate. Vompanies not paying enough to cover living costs are leaches. You're suggesting the most expensive o
63 BMI727 : By a completely arbitrary determination with no basis in the market. It does if the foreign workers come to you. Because jobs just grow on trees, rig
64 WarRI1 : As sure as the sun comes up everyday. As someone said to me earlier, it is unbelievable that this has to be explained over and over. Who in this worl
65 BMI727 : Buildings don't maintain themselves. People can. Or on a more basic level, who is responsible for building maintenance? The owner, of course. So, who
66 BMI727 : It doesn't necessarily translate to the ability to better feed and cloth themselves. If budgets get squeezed and they lose their jobs the opposite ha
67 RussianJet : Are you seriously suggesting that the government should not strive to improve conditions and opportunities in the more underprivileged communities? I
68 AeroWesty : You're looking at this too linearly. Far more than the price of labor goes into the cost of goods. The price of commodities, transportation, rents an
69 BMI727 : It costs too much. How much costly bureaucracy is that going to take? Education and infrastructure is fine, but after that you're pretty much out of
70 AeroWesty : Sure it comes from somewhere, but it doesn't always come from the final price at the register. Accumulating wealth at a slower pace can also play a f
71 RussianJet : In the short term potentially costly, yes. In the long term, a sensible investment for the country. Not much, assuming you have an established benefi
72 WarRI1 : If this is true about minimum wage, it only stands to reason that this principle applies to any raise that anyone receives. Every raise across the bo
73 Post contains images RussianJet : Also, the effect of raising minimum wage on the cost of everything is exaggerated. It is not a raise for everybody, it is a raise for only the very l
74 Darksnowynight : Very good point. Can't believe I missed that until now, thanks for bringing it up! To say the least, yes! I'll be a funkey's muncle if that translate
75 BMI727 : Unless you aren't underprivileged, in which case you're basically tossing away money. Getting someone productive isn't a governmental problem unless
76 Post contains images WarRI1 : I am beginning to doubt my limited knowledge of economics. How in the hell did I survive, support my family, end up fairly well off, put my children
77 RussianJet : Wow. So you'd be happy to see some parts of your nation turn into Somalia so long as you're alright Jack? Do you really care so little about the stat
78 WarRI1 : There is an old saying "spitting hairs" A raise is a raise is a raise. Price increases from any source, minimum wages, regular raises is the exact sa
79 Post contains images WarRI1 : I am as puzzled as you are. What are the values being displayed on here? I will take yours and mine and some others any day of the week. I live well,
80 DeltaMD90 : Me as well. Not trying to call you out, BMI, but you (and I) were basically born with a silver spoon. I know you got your Aero Engineering degree, I
81 Ken777 : People who hate government spending tend to forget that those bridges, roads and airports are actually built by private companies. So somehow there i
82 WarRI1 : Now that sums it up very well. I could not agree more with your statement. We are humans, dealing with fellow humans. This covers the frustration som
83 DeltaMD90 : I agree with what you said, but I can also understand why people can think the way BMI does, but I just find it kinda hypocritical that he is saying
84 RussianJet : I grew up with one parent (my father having fled abroad and left us all with no warning, and my mum with the entire household to pay for) and with th
85 Post contains images WarRI1 : A very, very important trait, to have empathy for others not so fortunate. I will give you a passing grade in Humanity. We all do not have to agree o
86 BMI727 : Depends on who you ask. If you ask me, or most other conservatives, the answer would be something along the lines that you learned various things you
87 DeltaMD90 : Well, like I said, it's just empathy, you either have it or don't. I was mainly commenting that I found your mindset weird considering your upbringin
88 RussianJet : It is nothing to do with dragging people along. It's about giving people a fighting chance, and for the life of me I can't understand the selfishness
89 WarRI1 : You have hit it right on the head. I have a problem with this part. One of the reasons that I did so well was the fact that in my age bracket, opport
90 RussianJet : And that's it. Not giving people sufficient opportunity or motivation to work and earn properly COSTS. Even if you can't see the good in helping peop
91 Post contains images Ken777 : Actually, with an engineering degree my bet is that he received a lot of various levels of government support. Maybe a Pell Grant, or something at ob
92 Darksnowynight : No, they were right the first time. You're not self made, or even close to it. Turning down a job doesn't get you anywhere, and has the added bonus o
93 BMI727 : It's insane that people expect government support for their whole lives after they spend the first two decades of it probably not going to school and
94 RussianJet : ??? If you're suggesting I go to school, then don't worry - I already did. I had a good education, in spite of our circumstances. If this was what yo
95 BMI727 : So it worked. That's precisely the point. I'm all for government paid education. That's the safety net and the welfare system, use it or don't. But,
96 AeroWesty : When I read this the first time, I thought perhaps I just hadn't understood the gist of what was trying to be expressed, but upon second reading, I t
97 PlanesNTrains : i'm less concerned about the companies going under because they will naturally manage their businesses in a way that allows them to continue to exist
98 Post contains images RomeoBravo : There are reports out there that both back it up and show little to no correlation. Realistically though, empirical data is difficult because there a
99 RussianJet : Indeed, so why the vitriol for any degree of meaningful help for communities and the disadvantaged displayed throughout the thread up to then? Nowher
100 windy95 : How about paying the extra money every month for the cost of item's if we removed the illegal aliens and placed unemployed citizens into those job's
101 RussianJet : Making a super effort to deport illegal immigrants is definitely a very good way to improve things. Some people seem to just accept them as part of t
102 DeltaMD90 : No, that is actually the complete opposite of what I am saying. Luck is me being born into an upper middle class family. Hard work is where I am toda
103 RussianJet : My goodness, that would be one of the first times I've seen a true opinion in a US political thread that doesn't reflect being either firmly in one c
104 RomeoBravo : There's only really negatives affect of immigration IF they sit on the welfare state. Otherwise, immigrants coming in working and adding to society i
105 RussianJet : That is blatantly untrue. It distorts the labour market, can result in extra policing and other public service costs, and encourages the black market
106 PlanesNTrains : I don't think you sound "harsh" and I don't think you sound "liberal". There is a broad range of opinion here with people falling over the spectrum.
107 RomeoBravo : Not really. Well yeah i did assume that wouldn't sit on welfare and gave them the benefit of the doubt WRT criminality too. Here we go again. Mexican
108 RussianJet : How not? Paying people less than the going rate gives unscrupulous employers the opportunity to gain an unfair advantage, and avoid paying legal work
109 Post contains images AeroWesty : Curious someone from the UK would use an American reference such as this.
110 RomeoBravo : People who work hard and expect little in return are good for the economy. Just like automation is good for the economy. Voting with feet normally sug
111 AeroWesty : Ever hear of Ellis Island? I'd like to see your stats on what percentage of the immigrants who built America were here illegally.
112 RomeoBravo : What difference does legality make?
113 AeroWesty : The subtopic being discussed was the affect of illegal immigrants on the workforce. It appeared that you were stating the "immigration that built Ame
114 RussianJet : Absolutely not when they are basically replacing a proportion of genuinely legal workers, and their criminal employers are replacing a proportion of
115 dallasnewark : It makes all the difference in the world. What part of ILLEGAL do you have difficulty comprehending? If they are in the country illegally, they broke
116 DeltaMD90 : There is a lot of banter and back and forth... can anyone help me break it down with me? 1. Minimum wage is not high enough for living, so the Preside
117 Post contains images Ken777 : Actually the taxpayers get a lot for that investment - especially when you look at the long term returns. The most prominent example was, of course,
118 RussianJet : And that's not legal and is economically harmful too. What's your point? As for who I'm trying to convince, certainly not myself. I am extremely well
119 Ken777 : When wages are increased the employer is going to have a larger tax deduction, meaning the IRS will pick up part of the tab for the increase. States
120 DeltaMD90 : How so? If prices across the board go up, then they'll all rise... competition will only keep them close to each other I'll add that I can see why ma
121 Post contains links Darksnowynight : That's fine. The problem with removing the illegal alien element isn't that it's insurmountable, but that people think it is. Part of the reason I'm
122 RomeoBravo : No, you're not trying to convince yourself at all. You're extremely well acquainted with the harm. What's interesting is that you started off by sayi
123 Darksnowynight : Of course not. You don't get to raise everything else right after you up the minimum wage just because you raised the minimum wage. A. enough of that
124 RussianJet : I guess not, and that quite obviously the impact of the issue is diverse in its consequences. It is massively clutching at straws to pretend these th
125 RomeoBravo : Clearly there has to be a net level of "exploitation". Somebody has to be profiting from all this.
126 Ken777 : Several factors impact European prices that we don't have in the US. First is our use of a very low minimum wage (under $3) for jobs that can receive
127 RussianJet : Various people profit in different ways. Illegal migrant workers themselves can be said to profit from the very fact of securing illegal work, but I
128 BMI727 : Not all of those people are a burden, not by a long shot. I'm simply not afraid to point out the reality that the vast majority of humanity (based on
129 RussianJet : Quite so, and I think I've been very clear that I have no time for people who wish to resign themselves to a life of bludging off others. I think tha
130 Ken777 : And brief (a month or so) experience in any industry means squat to recruiters. As are your chances of making solid, long term contacts. Unfortunatel
131 BMI727 : I'm not sure consumers are willing to deal with the fallout from that. Seeing fruit and vegetable prices rise might not be pretty. They are proof pos
132 AeroWesty : Man oh man, are you ever going to have some big surprises ahead in life. But if you really believed that, down to your core, you would have taken the
133 Post contains images RussianJet : Seasonal agricultural work can be done with controlled work migration. We used to have similar schemes in the UK and they worked very well. The price
134 BMI727 : For what it's worth, there was a little more to it than just location, but that was the primary issue. But that's just the thing: I tried to care abo
135 tugger : Probably the best and most important thing about raising the minimum wage is that it flows monies directly to those lowest on the economic ladder with
136 RussianJet : There are always going to be people at the bottom of the ladder, but they needn't be paid starvation wages. It's lazy to refuse to tackle the issues
137 BMI727 : Sometimes economics dictates that they do. Using artificial price controls introduces inefficiencies. And the money to pay them better than starvatio
138 DeltaMD90 : Um it's a lot more complex than that. Plus, don't you want a job you enjoy? What good is money if you have a lousy job or live in a lousy area? Why a
139 BMI727 : Sure, but not enough to let it cost me a ton of money. Ultimately money buys freedom. Living in a less than ideal area (which often have lower costs
140 Ken777 : And then tax dollars kick in and make up the difference. Plus, of course, the costs of the infrastructures to deliver those benefits. Pretty ineffici
141 BMI727 : Both. I like it, but if it weren't such a high paying field I would have done something else. Beats doing nothing.
142 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I don't know his motivation, but that's clearly the reasoning being put out. Sure. I don't think either deserve to be "helped out". If we are going t
143 Pellegrine : This is your post from the last thread. I have critical disagreements with you. Yes I believe the US Government has money. It comes in the form of fe
144 Post contains images Darksnowynight : Can't speak for Ken, but when I mentioned it, it was in juxtaposition to the idea that welfare exists for the benefit of scammers and cheats. While t
145 cmf : It doesn't matter if the job is done by a student, housewife, head of household or whatever label you want to put on them. What matters is the job, h
146 Post contains images StarAC17 : If you have on your resume several short term jobs, especially after finishing university a recruiter or potential employer is going to wonder whats
147 RussianJet : Yup, wanted by the unscrupulous to avoid paying the going rate and the appropriate taxes. Robbing the nation, in other words.
148 AeroWesty : He's a college graduate with a degree (who always tells us he's not going to end up where we warn him he'll end up, LOL)
149 BMI727 : Engineering's a bit different. Most employers are government contractors so they are required to post jobs publicly. More importantly, as I understan
150 Pellegrine : I don't mean to be untoward, but some of your posts are just sad. Even if you've had an unfortunate turn of events, being bitter about life won't get
151 RomeoBravo : No the government has no money, only it's citizens', and many governments don't even have that any more. Human progress also means cheaper goods and
152 BMI727 : I'm not bitter or even that unfortunate. Unfortunate would be having a creative writing degree or something like that in a bad economy. I just know w
153 Ken777 : Not really. Dad was a mechanical engineer and got a job with an oil company through a friend - in the middle of the Depression, no less. Engineering
154 AeroWesty : If I make this too personal, my post will just get deleted. So instead, let me just remind you that "a rising tide lifts all boats". If you read a fe
155 StarAC17 : No it really isn't that different as most aerospace jobs (which is what you say you want) lies with private companies that make and supply parts for
156 Post contains images AeroWesty : When I was young and thought this way, someone who owned his own business corrected me. "Your customers become your new bosses", he explained, and he
157 BMI727 : Things have changed a bit since then. Of course, cutting out the old boys club is probably a good thing on the whole, but I have a hard time believin
158 AeroWesty : I'll just do one short follow-up on this, and say that this kind of attitude comes through in interviews and in the workplace. When you show disdain
159 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : It's like the common criminal that thinks he can outsmart a detective... of course not, that's what they do for a living, solving crimes. A new appli
160 RomeoBravo : It's very easy to blag interviews in my experience....at least the personality side. Technical questions obviously have to be learnt.
161 StarAC17 : It is still in place, those whom know people in high places and don't piss them off have a head start in the workforce. That's what you want, to get
162 AeroWesty : And may put you into 'fast track for advancement' programs, which some companies have, especially MNCs, where there's a lot of opportunity to work in
163 BMI727 : Of course I want to be a part of the successful team. But not necessarily because I care about the team or the people on it, just because it helps me
164 AeroWesty : And this is what you keep missing, it's not all about you, and a positive attitude isn't something you turn on and off like a faucet. Unfortunately,
165 DeltaMD90 : True, but you as an inexperienced new comer, are you a smart one? Not a smart person, compared to the highly educated group that is Aerospace Enginee
166 BMI727 : It isn't? I think I can, hell that's what life is all about. I have no problem saying or doing the right thing to get along even if I don't really bu
167 WarRI1 : The catch phrase Team Player is very important when you are on a team, or crew of workers. One must adapt to be able to handle the different foibles,
168 Darksnowynight : Absolutley. When I need to hire, generally speaking, I'll pull from a list people I've already worked with before. Saves me a lot of headache, I can
169 tugger : Nope, it isn't. And I know as I am cursed with a naturally positive attitude. I have to tamp it down often enough but my normal state is that "things
170 Ken777 : Really? You think? Who says that it's been cut out? Guys working in their first year after graduation tells the recruiter to check out some guys a ye
171 BMI727 : I understand that, but if it takes too long to get their I'm not interested. I'm not going to do a decade at a throw away job in order to finally get
172 Darksnowynight : Then you are screwed. Don't worry about paying dues, first off. You haven't even started with that, so you can deal with that some other time. Did yo
173 BMI727 : It should open the initial door to get there. The only major mistake I made was not doing an internship and taking classes over the summer instead. I
174 Ken777 : Maybe some work on spelling will help - even if you feel it takes too long to get there. Could it be because you were excluded from discussions by th
175 Post contains images WarRI1 : I am befuddled. I am giving up on this one. I do not know what to say next.
176 BMI727 : If any of them thought I was deficient or not good enough for industry none of them bothered to mention it to me.
177 DeltaMD90 : I really wish the best for you, I do, but can you see that someone like you can get screwed by things outside of your control? Now imagine you aren't
178 BMI727 : That's just the thing, it wasn't entirely out of my control. I messed some things up along the way and am paying the consequences. It's already a fai
179 DeltaMD90 : Well I'll give you props if you actually feel the brunt of it and NOT get a job for a few years and your parents kick you out. If you still feel the
180 BMI727 : Not if getting help when things are bad means paying extra when things aren't. It's a calculated risk for sure, but at the end of the day you live an
181 tugger : That was me when I graduated. I had great dreams and plans, the airlines had just been deregulated, new jobs were being created, airlines were expand
182 PlanesNTrains : Sure, I can agree with that, though I think any more the tide has turned from looking at welfare scammers as bad to looking at rich people as bad. I'
183 StarAC17 : You are the reason that Gen Y have a crappy reputation when it comes to the workforce. You feel that you are entitled to get to the top in a manner t
184 BMI727 : That's great, but I don't think it's worth it to keep on chasing jobs I'll never get. Working ten years or whatever to get an entry level job is a po
185 DeltaMD90 : And you aren't for just a little bit of assistance when it is absolutely needed? There is nothing wrong for asking for help. I learned that in OCS...
186 BMI727 : Yes there is. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it when there's no other alternative, but the implication of asking for help is very, very clear. It m
187 DeltaMD90 : Um, no. I've gotten to where I am now because I've asked for help at some points in my life. That doesn't mean I have been a pushover and have had ot
188 BMI727 : I mean cut throat in terms of being ultra focused on what you want and making pretty much everything "buy" its way into relevance based on that. Aski
189 DeltaMD90 : Well yeah, that's what I'm getting at, everyone needs to do it, it doesn't need to be some taboo thing. And by failure, you are saying you fail to be
190 BMI727 : It is for me. It means I screwed up. Precisely. Falling short might be okay for some people, but not for me. I realize that. And I realize that I hav
191 Darksnowynight : It's a fair point. But I think there is a human tendency to feel embattled in general (witness the Christian Supermajority in the US telling everyone
192 BMI727 : Probably not. But working for years to get the job I should have now, or make the equivalent amount of money, isn't progress. That's failure. I've ye
193 DeltaMD90 : Um yeah, that's the point. Name me one person who hasn't screwed up. It's how you approach it... many people have the wrong attitude of not caring ab
194 StarAC17 : It's called experience and while working you will interact with various clients and will establish professional relationships. Developing those means
195 BMI727 : If I just "move on" it doesn't help. It has to matter, accepting it doesn't help. The problem with government welfare type programs is that they rais
196 DeltaMD90 : Some do. I'm not for free rides, just as you aren't. I'm just for filling the cracks in the floor that lead to the basement Ah, did not know that. Wh
197 Ken777 : Because of variances around the country your best bet for solid information will generally be city offices, or a local university. Sociology or Socia
198 Post contains images planesntrains : Yikes. You have really set yourself up, imho. That's a big part of everything, to be sure. It always comes down to marketing, even in politics, as we
199 BMI727 : Your typical retail crap job. Probably shouldn't say much more than that since I don't have that much nice to say about it. It's a bullet point on a
200 StarAC17 : Then you can move on in 5 years when the economy likely will be better and you have experience and leverage over your current employer if you happen
201 BMI727 : The issue is that I'd be bouncing around, which isn't a problem in itself, but having an entry level job in five years because I spent the last five
202 planesntrains : Well, so far it seems clear that we are just picking numbers out of our collective butts as a way of doing "something". I wish that if people were go
203 flipdewaf : but the market suggests otherwise, surely you of all people understand that. You aren't wanted for that amount of money, so why should you have that
204 Ken777 : Nope. Get some cheap stiffs for customers and you can go home with way below minimum wage for the shift. And your employer can have you working on no
205 DeltaMD90 : You are right... but they are even less likely to do that for someone who is completely unemployed
206 planesntrains : Well, I can only reference the two states that we discussed earlier - RI and WA. Having combed through the minimum wage laws briefly earlier today (b
207 Post contains links Ken777 : Odd thing an going under 30 hours - looks like those employees will then be able to get Medicaid at an affordable cost - with government support if n
208 planesntrains : Well, I hope they need medical care then because Medicaid isn't going to feed them or pay their rent. At least in the hospital they have food and hou
209 Ken777 : But there are other government programs that can kick in, especially when there are kids in the family. You apparently have n't read the article.
210 BMI727 : Sure, but I'm not about to believe that the solution to having wasted $100k is to spend another $50k. I don't want to throw any more money into the p
211 planesntrains : You're right Ken, I didn't. I was getting ready to go out to dinner with my wife and really lacked the desire to delve into the health care debate. M
212 AeroWesty : Wait, wasn't that $100K the spend that got you a job offer? You turned it down.
213 BMI727 : It was. But if getting the next offer is going to cost me that much it isn't going to be worth it. Not without some unrealistically good guarantees.
214 darksnowynight : Sure, there will. I just don't think that push back will materialize to a significant extent when the rise on costs aren't huge but are happening mor
215 planesntrains : I have no problem with requiring a higher minimum for servers. As I said, I'm going by what we do in Washington State. At my last job, it was a uniqu
216 CompensateMe : Raising minimum wage is a cheap bandage solution, one that I don't support. Although wage expansion has soared in the USA against inflation, executive
217 DeltaMD90 : Well anything to gain an edge on everyone else, right? Who knows, this lowly job may be your saving grace, you never know. A bunch of stuff I put on
218 CalebWilliams : Most ignorant thing I've ever heard. Classical uncompassionate conservative. The only people you care about are Wow, they should concider themselves
219 BMI727 : If that gives me an edge, I'd have to seriously question hiring managers. Seriously, I don't care. I don't care who they are, I don't care where they
220 DeltaMD90 : Not for any skill you gain there (or lack of) but employment gaps. It's pretty common knowledge that having an employment gap looks bad. You could wo
221 RomeoBravo : It's probably one of the most enlightened things you'll ever hear. Employers can only demand from their employees what the market will bare. It's lik
222 tugger : If you do not think there are "predators" out there. It is less likely now in the USA but it does happen (though primarily with people that are here
223 DeltaMD90 : True, but that is often not the case. They don't see employment gaps and DQ you, they ask you about them
224 BMI727 : I have no idea why people think that way. I'm sure not proving anything anybody should find relevant. The current gig doesn't even earn space on the
225 RomeoBravo : It's probably been lost in the length of this thread but i had set out the premise that this applied so long as the employment was voluntary. Obvious
226 darksnowynight : In my eyes, that goes by situation. Some small business are no better than the Waltons that run them out of town. The little guy isn't always better.
227 Post contains images Ken777 : The top 1% need those folks. And they need them to keep believing that stuff in order to protect their 300+ Pate tax returns. The classic rip offs th
228 AeroWesty : No one ever argued that if you take a job as say a janitor earning a low salary, that that job is inherently exploitative on the part of the employer
229 RomeoBravo : I am only sharing advice that got me earning in the top 2%ile at the age of 27. Nothing of what i say is a preconceived notion. On the contrary, I wa
230 BMI727 : And cause people who work their butts off writing, editing, and revising text books to lose most all compensation for their work. It's an industry li
231 AeroWesty : You could choose to believe that, or you could do some research on why the Fair Labor Standards Act was passed into law to protect workers, which est
232 StarAC17 : Here's how it gives you an edge. If you are working even a menial job and can show a good work ethic you will know what is expected of you in a workp
233 Ken777 : There is no need to loose compensation for any new work they deliver. At the same time, someone selling a new Algebra book has been able to take all
234 BMI727 : Being a cynic, I'd also contend that those acted as backdoor stimuli. If you can't make one guy work 80 hours a week I have to hire two to work 40 ho
235 AeroWesty : At junctures like this, I wonder if I'm the only one who simply believes in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, and that one treats their employe
236 StarAC17 : Do you know the biggest reason that people get fired? It's because someone is late repeatedly, a fairly minor thing many fail to get right. Also whil
237 BMI727 : That's a fine belief, but having that determined by more or less arbitrary government regulations can be problematic. Having a job that isn't interes
238 planesntrains : Geesh. Is everyone the bad guy? Is the glass always half empty? Who said we HAVE TO pay out the tax dollars? Interesting that it's not even considere
239 AeroWesty : Who in the thread is complaining about wasting $100K on education, and not being able to land a job he's "worthy" of, and who isn't?
240 BMI727 : That's exactly it. You're going to let the government make sure high school dropouts with menial jobs are taken care of but people who do what they'r
241 AeroWesty : No, I'm going to let the government determine what the minimum is to be in compliance with "Fair Labor Standards", no matter who you are, or your lev
242 BMI727 : What it amounts to is the government setting a floor for the bottom of the skill/education spectrum while not doing nearly as much to help people hig
243 AeroWesty : Let's hear what you'd like the government do for the people higher up on a comparable basis. Be detailed.
244 BMI727 : I'm not a professional economist, so I can't be that detailed. But I'd much rather the government buy into supply side economics and break down barri
245 AeroWesty : That certainly explains a lot.
246 Ken777 : How many NEW history books do we need covering the US to 1776? And how much should students have to pay for that rehash? Exactly, making it difficult
247 CalebWilliams : You don't have to tell me, I spent $1,000 dollars for a year's worth of text books, some of which I never even opened for class. I probably still hav
248 Post contains links iowaman : Please continue the discussion here: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 3 (by iowaman Feb 23 2013 in Non Aviation) Thank you to all who have kept
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