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Political Gridlock In Italy Threatens The EU?  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

I don't pretend to understand European politics - but this looks serious to me.

Apparently, in the Italian elections, the 'left' has secured a 'thin' majority giving it control of the 'lower house.' But the right (under Berlusconi) appears to have secured an (almost as thin) majority in the 'upper house.'

According to the article, the Italian Constitution makes no provision for this situation happening? So, on the face of it, it looks as if neither the left nor the right will have the authority to form a government?

http://www.theage.com.au/world/uncer...-vote-in-italy-20130226-2f2r9.html

Probably won't help that Italy (which, I believe, is the third largest economy in the Eurozone) is already largely dependent on handouts from Brussels to keep its economy running?

Hope some sort of solution is found - the world needs the EU and the EU needs the rest of the world. But, with dimwits like Merkel and Hollande in charge, I'm not overly hopeful.....

[Edited 2013-02-26 04:16:16]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 886 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1596 times:

How Italy functions is a mystery to me, but it just does. With something like 65 governments since WW2 and I think only one that actually managed the full 5 years, I believe Italians just get on with things. Its probably the vast govt bureaucracy that never changes that provides the stability.

I doubt the end of the EU would come about due to an Italian election, but it will be interesting to see what happens.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3766 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1585 times:

Medias love drama.

They've predicted the fall of Europe a number of times already. I doubt this will do any better at drastically changing anything.

Italian politics have always been an organized chaos that keeps teetering on the brink of anarchy, but somehow never crosses the line. Just another day at the office.

As for the economic situation, it's not brilliant, but they're not the only ones, and it's been so for a while. So there's no major change either way.

They'll manage an uneasy ruling alliance and life will go on.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
the world needs the EU

I'm not sure about that.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1530 times:

Now they are all after Beppe Grillo to join them to form a coalition!!! Only that Beppe said he would form an alliance with neither parties!!!

15.14 GRILLO: NON CI ALLEIAMO CON NESSUNO, LO DIRO’ A NAPOLITANO
Grillo: we will ally with no one. I will tell Napolitano.

Well done Beppe! I would have voted for you if I had to vote in these elections!!!!

  

Bersani: primi, ma non abbiamo vinto
Bersani: we are first but we did not win

Grillo: “Ostacoleremo il governissimo”
Grillol: we will obstacle big government

Berlusconi: “Tornare a votare è inutile”
Berlusconi: Going back to vote is useless

 Wow!

[Edited 2013-02-26 08:27:39]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7915 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1525 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
So, on the face of it, it looks as if neither the left nor the right will have the authority to form a government?

It almost sounds like the US lol...

On a serious note, how will this be devastating to the EU? I can see it being a headache, but it kinda just looks like media hype



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but it kinda just looks like media hype

        

Also, the media hype is because some institutional investors used it as an excuse to force the US stock market down sharply - making them a lot of money.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):

On a serious note, how will this be devastating to the EU? I can see it being a headache, but it kinda just looks like media hype

The Brussels gnomes hate it that Monti was crushed. He was one of theirs a non-elected technocrat turned Prime Minister. Now he can either.go back working for Goldman Sachs, or be a University Professor

Now they are embarrassed as they will have to deal either with Berlusconi or Bersani - which ever candiate will be able to form an alliance for a new government - maybe these new people will not want to abide to Brussels the same as Mario Monti.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

Media hype and nothing else. The EU has been (supposedly) at the brink of collapse for the past 5 years. The scare mongering is getting old.

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):

Probably won't help that Italy (which, I believe, is the third largest economy in the Eurozone) is already largely dependent on handouts from Brussels to keep its economy running?

What handouts are you talking about exactly? Apart from being the third largest economy in the Eurozone, Italy is also one of the biggest net contributors in the EU and has not asked for any financial assistance during the crisis. It would be nice for a change if people dropped the "Southern moocher" theory.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 8):
Italy is also one of the biggest net contributors in the EU and has not asked for any financial assistance during the crisis. It would be nice for a change if people dropped the "Southern moocher" theory.

Italians are artists and creative they like doing their own thing, it's in their nature and they always come out of complex situations some way or other. I am sure they will come up with a solution. Bersani isn't too left of center and Berlusconi will agree to whatever arrangements that will put him back in power. We thought he was finished but he seriously isn't at least by voter's choice.

Now Beppe Grillo is the man. He and his people will make any government stand or fall at will. He is having a consultation online with his party's members asking them if he will be a candidate for the Presidency.

Writer and playwright Dario Fo said he is too old to be a candidate for the Presidential post as per Grillo's idea of having Fo becoming the next President.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6672 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Apparently, in the Italian elections, the 'left' has secured a 'thin' majority giving it control of the 'lower house.' But the right (under Berlusconi) appears to have secured an (almost as thin) majority in the 'upper house.'

No. The democrats have a majority in the house, but nobody has a majority in the senate. Berlusconi's party has a few more seats than the democrats, but lacks dozens to have a majority.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
Well done Beppe! I would have voted for you if I had to vote in these elections!!!!

What would have been the point ? Do you know his platform ? It's a mix of Le Pen and Mélenchon, it's hardly going to lead to anything.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

So apparently Italians feel having sex with a underage prostitute and criminal counts (tax evasion) means squat compared to being right person to leading the country?

Well if Bill Clinton survived Monica Lewinsky, I guess Berlisconi can become PM again...  



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
It's a mix of Le Pen and Mélenchon, it's hardly going to lead to anything.

It seems that you don't know the man. Beppe is a comedian now turned politician. He is immensely popular in Italy. He is looking to ridicule a certain political class - aka Berlusconi and Monti - and he succeeded. The closest thing to him that I can think of is Coluche. Only that Coluche never ran for any election.

I support Beppe Grillo. Are we no longer allowed to think/vote different from the herd?

   Wow!


As for Bersani he is hardly "left" as you might think. He is "left of center" and a moderate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Luigi_Bersani

Bersani won by very little. He himself declared "we are first but we did not win" after the final results were proclaimed.

Bersani: H 29,54% S 31,60%

Berlusconi H 29,13% S 30,66%

Bersani gets more seats in the House because of the electoral system but in percentage the two came roughly even.

The Left in this election are Mario Monti (fail) and Antonio Ingrola (mega-fail)

 Wow!

[Edited 2013-02-26 10:48:21]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7915 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
I support Beppe Grillo. Are we no longer allowed to think/vote different from the herd?

What are you talking about? That is not what he said



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1404 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Beppe is a comedian now turned politician.

Grillo is certainly not a politician. He barely has a program - other than condemning the Euro and cursing his opponents. He's a demagogue, the hope of the disenchanted, the incarnation of dumpiness. He's an anti-politician more than a politician.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
He is looking to ridicule a certain political class - aka Berlusconi and Monti - and he succeeded.

Yes, but is that enough to govern anything bigger than a regular's table?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):
Are we no longer allowed to think/vote different from the herd?

  

Sure, you can vote for any weirdo you want. Grillo is the one who does not allow unorthodox thinkers. He kicked everyone out of his movement who did not agree with him, which is the typical behavior of extreme right- or left-wingers who fail to grasp the meaning of words like "republic" or "democracy".



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 14):
He's an anti-politician

With all the shit happening in world politics at the moment due do 'politicians' I'm happy to consider some 'anti-politicians'.... If for anything, to give 'politicians' a good kick in the nuts.


I'm so bloody tired of politics.   


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 14):
Yes, but is that enough to govern anything bigger than a regular's table?

Don't tell that to me. Go tell those who have voted for him.

People are fed up. They have had enough of all the years of Montis and Berlusconis seeing no results other than these leaders having it more and more comfortable with more and more money in their pockets. Monti the Golden Boy from Goldman Sachs, University Professor and Brussel-ite. Berlusconi the Cavaliere head of media and industries with his young mistresses and bunga bunga parties.

Monti got crushed. Look at his results. Nil. They got fed up of this non-elected technocrat/Brussels gnome.

The exact same goes in other countries, take Greece, Bulgaria and Spain where huge protests are being held with hundreds of thousands showing their ire on the streets.

If voters vote for a Grillo or another borderline candidate with no meaning it is not without reason.

Either that or a neo-Hitler or a Wahabi Muslim or the Muslim Brotherhood like it happened in Egypt.
I prefer Grillo and by far.

Please give us your solution - and if you have one then go see all of Grillo's voters and try convincing him to vote for someone else. I am ready and waiting til you do it - and see what results you will get.

     

And now Bersani the non-winner with the most seats inthe House is courting Grillo to form a government after he dismissed Berlusconi for an alliance.

To which Grillo answered: we will consider/value one thing after another.

Italian
Dopo aver gelato le aperture di Berlusconi per un governissimo pd-pdl annuncia che si presenterà in Parlamento con un programma basato su temi che richiamano le parole d’ordine del movimento cinque stelle: legalità, moralità, sobrietà della politica, questione sociale. E su quello chiederà la fiducia. Lo farà perché il risultato gli ha consegnato la maggioranza alla Camera e la consistenza di prima forza al Senato. Sul piatto Bersani mette anche l’offerta della presidenza della Camera al movimento cinque stelle, che è diventato, riconosce «il primo partito italiano» ed è giusto che venga coinvolto nella vita delle istituzioni. Favorevole alla ricerca di un’intesa con l’M5S è anche Nichi Vendola: «l’alleanza con Grillo è l’unica possibilità’, dice il leader di Sel, che boccia invece un governo con il Pdl.

English
After having frozen Berlusconi openings for a big government pd-pdl Bersani announces that he will introduce to Parliament a program based on themes that recall the watchwords of the five star movement: legality, morality, sobriety of politics, social issue. Ask and trust. It will do so because the result handed him the majority in the House and the first consistency strength in the Senate. Bersani also puts on the offer of the Presidency of the rHouse to the five-star movement, which became the first recognized Italian party» and it is right that is involved in the life of the institutions. Pro looking for an understanding with the M5S is even Nichi Vendola: "the Alliance with Grillo is the only opportunity ', says the leader of Sel, which rejects a Government with the Pdl.

Cinque Stelle (Five Stars is Beppe Grillo's movement)

What will be your answer to this?

 Wow!

[Edited 2013-02-26 13:31:09]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
What will be your answer to this?

I don't even think of telling Italians anything.

Quoting Redd (Reply 15):
With all the shit happening in world politics at the moment due do 'politicians' I'm happy to consider some 'anti-politicians'.... If for anything, to give 'politicians' a good kick in the nuts.

That's talk from the regular's table and won't do anything good.
The answer to corrupt or otherwise bad politicians is better politicians, not electing a demagogue into office.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Italy (which, I believe, is the third largest economy in the Eurozone) is already largely dependent on handouts from Brussels to keep its economy running

Italy hasn't received any help from the EU. Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Spanish banks have received economic help, and that money went straight into debt repayment owned, mostly, by German and European banks. Guess who's most interested in political instability and high interest rates in those countries?


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

It's certainly nice to see the politics of Italy returning to a state of complete chaos... that does remind me so much of my childhood!

As for the doomsday prophets who are proclaiming once again that this, now, will definitely be the end of the EU (Promise!) - please don't hold your breath. Instead, I suggest that you do what you've always done - should be easy enough: moan and grumble and complain about all that riff-raff what is invading your sceptred isle or your grande nation... or about all those stupid regulations what keep coming out of Brussels... and so on, ad infinitum. Makes it easier for the rest of us to stay away from you.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 17):
I don't even think of telling Italians anything.

But, look, you're German, so you must be thinking just that! By law!



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 17):
I don't even think of telling Italians anything

If only Schauble and other politicians/foreign press had refrained from advising the Italian people (and Greeks before them) how to vote - or rather how not to vote - then maybe we would have seen a smaller knee-jerk reaction in both elections.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...r-berlusconi-a-884265.html#ref=rss

http://www.expatica.com/de/news/germ...and-gives-election-tip_234293.html


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1293 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 20):
If only Schauble and other politicians/foreign press had refrained from advising the Italian people (and Greeks before them) how to vote - or rather how not to vote - then maybe we would have seen a smaller knee-jerk reaction in both elections.

Well, if you decide to vote for someone just to spite some foreign politician who said that it wouldn't be a good idea, you cannot be called a responsible voter. And I don't think that many in Italy made such decisions.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 18):
Guess who's most interested in political instability and high interest rates in those countries?

No one.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10899 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1168 times:

Beppe Grillo sees Bersani and Berlusconi forming an alliance to form a new government.

Beppe Grillo on Bersani: Dead man talking
http://www.beppegrillo.it/

"Today in Italy, what will happen is what happened before. The right and the left will get together and will govern a country of rubble that they are responsible for," he said.
"It will last a year. One. Maximum. Then there will be elections again. And once again, in the elections, the Five-Star movement will change the world," he added.

Mr Grillo said the M5S would decide whether to support specific legislation on a case-by-case basis.
Any attempts to persuade the movement to take part in a government were fake, he asserted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21605388

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1078 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 21):

Well, if you decide to vote for someone just to spite some foreign politician who said that it wouldn't be a good idea, you cannot be called a responsible voter.

You are fortunate enough to not be in a situation where you have literally lost the world from underneath your feet and you wake up every day worrying if you will lose your job and not be able to afford the new taxes being levied on you on a daily basis, which could lead to your imprisonment or confiscation of everything you have worked hard to obtain. You simply cannot understand the current psyche of the people in Portugal, Spain, Italy or Greece.

Voting for someone being suggested by an outside entity would not be easy as you would not see that person as someone who has your interests in mind above everything else. It is not about spite, it is about disliking obvious attempts by external entities to affect the voting process of their country. If a Greek/Portugese/Spanish/Italian newspaper wrote articles directed to you, as a German voter, telling you that you should vote for X because this would keep the money rolling, would you consider that move beneficial to you? What if a Greek politician of the current Greek government came out and called your choice of leader "a clown"?

I have been following the German press and their articles on the Italian election. The main message is that Italian voters are children and "idiots". For better or worse, Italians feel that they want a different leadership with new ideas and preferably not a puppet of outside entities. I do not expect any German to know what goes on in an Italian's head these days and I do not see why any German feels entitled to judge the democratic elections of another country in such a condescending way, implying that democracy is good as long as it has the desirable outcome during elections. I do not get that condescending attitude of superiority "we are responsible voters while you obviously are not". I will wait for the German elections and their outcome to see just how true that is because it is already evident that the German voters will also vote based on their feelings and not their logic.


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 43
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1075 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
You are fortunate enough to not be in a situation where you have literally lost the world from underneath your feet

Sorry, but why do you assume that I don't know how that feels? Just because I'm German?

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
You simply cannot understand the current psyche of the people in Portugal, Spain, Italy or Greece.

I don't believe for a second that all the people in all those countries are feeling the same about their futures. There is tremendous hardship, obviously, but Southern Europe is no Biafra.

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
If a Greek/Portugese/Spanish/Italian newspaper wrote articles directed to you, as a German voter, telling you that you should vote for X because this would keep the money rolling, would you consider that move beneficial to you?

I don't know of any German newspapers printing such articles, but that is probably due to my disinterest in the German media; i.e. I do believe that they may have done it - but I'm guessing that the reputable papers kept it in the op/ed sections. As for the yellow press, they're best ignored.

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
What if a Greek politician of the current Greek government came out and called your choice of leader "a clown"?

Since I would never vote for someone like Berlusconi or Grillo, I doubt that this scenario is ever going to become a reality. In any case, I don't hold a grudge against e.g. the USA because Obama flat out ignores Europe - which is even worse - because I know that the links between the US and the EU run much, much deeper than politics. The same is true for Germany and Greece.

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
I have been following the German press and their articles on the Italian election. The main message is that Italian voters are children and "idiots".

We must not be reading the same newspapers - the message that I get is "They could only have done this out of desperation." And if there is a people that knows all about desperation leading to poor choices, it's the Germans.

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
I do not get that condescending attitude of superiority "we are responsible voters while you obviously are not".

Neither do I, but please do remember that this attitude is in no way limited to some Germans' opinions on Southern Europe. Neither is it an opinion shared by all Germans.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1017 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
I have been following the German press and their articles on the Italian election. The main message is that Italian voters are children and "idiots".

Could you provide some examples, please?



I support the right to arm bears
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