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Student Debt Nears $1 Trillion  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Rather scary headline that caught my attention.

Quote:

Total student debt has nearly tripled over the past eight years, a new report from the New York Federal Reserve has found.

Total student debt stands at $966 billion as of the fourth quarter of 2012, the N.Y. Fed said in press materials, with a 70 percent increase in both the number of borrowers and the average balance per person. The overall number of borrowers past due on their student loan payments has also grown, from under 10 percent in 2004 to 17 percent in 2012.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...t-debt-new-york-fed_n_2783103.html

It might be easy to hit on the HuffPost, but the information came from the New York Federal Reserve. That gives it a lot of credibility.

It also points to a lot of concerns that are going to be related.

Quote:

Fewer people with student loans are buying homes, according to data in the report. Of borrowers ages 25 to 30 who are taking out new mortgages, the percentage of those with student debt has fallen by half, from nearly 9 percent in 2005 to just above 4 percent in 2012.

When you exclude the insanity (and fraud) of the housing bubble there has been an intelligent progress of home ownership for college grads. Starter homes were a responsible first step, moving up periodically when kids (and salary increases) arrived.

The games related to student loans has cut over half of those graduates from that normal consumer pattern.

Quote:

"I don't like to use the word 'crisis,' because it's a 'crisis' that really can't melt down the same way that the mortgage market did," Chopra said on HuffPost Live. "In fact, a lot of the student loan issues are just going to be a drag on the economy, because young people aren't going to be able to participate like a generation ago when they're making very large payments out of their salaries every single month instead of putting it to better use."

That pretty well points to a deteriorated economy in the future.

With interest rates so low these days it is, I believe, in our interest to allow students and graduates to refinance their loans under the new system. That puts cash into the local economies as soon as the loans are refinanced and the payments are lowered.

Putting that increased cash into the economy can only help. The financial sector would fight that - they are getting super cheap money and are making a killing off of those under the old loan system. Personally I'll go for helping grads, the housing markets and the local economies over the financial sector.

Quote:

The fed's report comes less than 24 hours before the federal sequester is scheduled to take effect, the automatic budget cuts that will cut off federal financial aid for as many as 280,000 students nationwide.

My bet is that won't matter. The financial sector has the money for lobbyists to keep those loans active. With billions going out in annual bonuses.

109 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

It doesn't surprise me one bit. I myself owe over $100k in student loan debt, which I am unable to even think about paying because I can't find a job. Lenders like Sallie Mae don't want to hear that I can't pay because I don't have a job so I've just stopped talking to them. There are many other recent college graduates in similar positions to mine (I'm 27 and graduated college in 2009).

Marc


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
$100k

man! For four years of uni?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
graduated college in 2009

sorry to hear it.

What degree do you have, if you don't mind me asking.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
man! For four years of uni?

Welcome to the USA. I'm sitting on about 60K.

Unfortunately there hasn't been much done to keep college costs from escalating.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13987 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Germany is now going the opposite way: After experiments with study fees for third level university education the states are going back to free and almost free (a nominal semestral fee of a few hundred Euros, mainly for the student´s association and medical insurance). In vocational apprenticeships the apprentices have always been employed by their companies and have received a salary of a few hundred Euros a month, which increased as their experience and knowledge (and therefore their useability for the company) increased. University students still need some income for their daily needs, but they get it either from their parents, through working besides studying or through scholarships.
We realised that the base of our economy is the education of the population. We need highly qualified engineers and scientists as well as highly trained skilled workers.

Jan


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
I'm sitting on about 60K.

Is that the total bill for a degree?
What degree is that for?
What does that include,housing, books etc?


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2378 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

...and then the president of my university once said in an interview that although he is happy with the 1500 $ / year of tuition (does not matter if philosophy or medicine!), he said that he thinks about raising the fees.

Why?

Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

The Federal Institute of Technology consistently ranks among the five best European universities, and among the twenty best ones world-wide. In spite of a tuition of 1240 $ / year.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7256 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.

Does that include for foreign students or is it limited to citizens/ permanent residents of Norway?

I ask because a number of countries provide education to nationals either free or for a low fee but charge full-fee for overseas students. Many overseas students' families are willing to pay the higher amount as they see it as a first step to migration and citizenship or improved employment chances and higher living standards elsewhere. The universities are happy to offer places because it means extra funding and the Governments are happy because it improves the balance of payments - education of overseas students is akin to exporting.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
I ask because a number of countries provide education to nationals either free or for a low fee but charge full-fee for overseas students.

Here in the UK, Scotland provides university education to Scots AND citizens of the EU. All citizens, apart those from those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who have to pay.  


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7256 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2494 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
Does that include for foreign students or is it limited to citizens/ permanent residents of Norway?

University is free for everyone in Norway regardless of where you come from, hence the reason why there are a lot of Chinese studying here.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2378 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):

In Switzerland, we just began to raise tuition fees for aliens. At the moment, many French and Germans attend our universities, but from other countries, there are very few students.

Current tuition fees for all Swiss universities:

http://www.crus.ch/information-progr...dy-in-switzerland.html?L=2#8_Costs


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
hence the reason why there are a lot of Chinese studying here.

So what sort of restrictions, if any (e.g. visas), are there on people simply moving to Norway to study? Can anyone just turn up or is there some sort of screening? And what's in it for Norway to subsidise overseas students?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
In Switzerland, we just began to raise tuition fees for aliens.

I can understand that within the EU and associated areas (I know that CH is not an EU member) that things may be different because of the ease in movement and in taking up employment but I am surprised that fees are not significantly greater for students who themselves or their parents have not paid taxes to support education services. Australia really does see education as an export and has encouraged student visas to support the growth of the education sector.

Sorry Ken. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I will ask a couple of questions as I am not familiar with student loans in the US. I assume that these are provided by private organisations, including banks and not universally provided by the States or Federal Government. Would that be right?

Here in Australia, while some fees need to be paid upfront, much of the education is provided on the basis that a person will "repay a debt" through a levy on income tax once they start working. This means that students don't have to sell their soul to a bank or other financial institution and no-one (in theory) is turned away because they can't afford it. The criteria for admission is whether the student has achieved a suitable score for admission through the examination system. In this respect the "debt" is to the Tax Office and not a private organisation.


User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
There are many other recent college graduates in similar positions to mine (I'm 27 and graduated college in 2009).

I'm not surprised. I had a boss that graduated from a great 4-year college and couldn't find a job. Worked at a fast food restaurant and gas station for a year or two after graduating. He graduated in 2009 and said a lot of his classmates were in a similar situation.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
$100k

man! For four years of uni?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
graduated college in 2009

sorry to hear it.

What degree do you have, if you don't mind me asking.

The school I went to was about $30,000/year including room and board. My grades were average so I didn't get scholarships, and grants were few and far to come by. I was on the five-year-plan. I have a degree in communications with a focus on broadcasting. Here's where my situation gets really screwed up. Since my creditor wants more money per month then I can pay, and won't accept anything less, I don't pay at all. So they report me to the credit bureaus. I don't want to get into specifics, but let's just say that my credit sucks because of this. What's one thing potential employers look at when considering an interview? You guessed it! Your credit score. So...I can't pay off my loans because I don't have money. I don't have money because I can't get a job. I can't get a job because my credit score stinks. I'm stuck in a vicious circle.

Marc


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12427 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2433 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

I think university admins worry too much about such things. It's not essential to have huge numbers of international students to have a vibrant university, IMHO.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=76 says that for year 2010-11 the cost (room, tuition, board) for a year of education at a 4 year institution averaged $16k for a public institution and $32k for a private institution. Multiply by four years, and add in the cost of weekend meals, gas money, cell phones, clothes, etc. and you can see why people leave university with six figures of debt.

Compare that to $7k/$14k twenty years earlier in constant (inflation-adjusted) dollars and you can see the problem.

I'm not sure what the root cause is. I've been back to my university and can't see things that cost >2x after inflation than they did 20 years ago.

I'm told that federal and state support for higher education has dropped over the years and more and more of the cost is passed via these costs, which means families and/or eventually financial institutions in the likely case the student can't keep up with the payments.

It's my own theory that as the price for public institutions goes up then the cost for private institutions goes up because the low cost competitor is what is driving the market. Flipping that around, the more we support public institutions, the more the entire cost for higher education goes down.

I think this is a wedge issue. The right doesn't like public support of anything, and is backed by the wealthy who won't be using the public institutions anyway. However they seem to ignore the fact that the world wasn't built exclusively by the graduates of the elite institutions.

I think a lot of what we call the greatest generation yada yada happened because of the huge amount of support for public higher education after WW2. Most of my engineering profs in the early 80s were ex-GIs who trained on the GI Bill. That's the same generation of folks who sent a man to the moon, built the Interstates, and created the integrated circuit, the microprocessor and the Internet (with or without Al Gore).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 14):
I'm stuck in a vicious circle.

First of all, happy anniversary on Anet.  

My gosh. Your position as stated does suck. I simply can not see the sense in your credit provider accepting less than you can afford to pay if you have advised them of a problem. I don't mean that they should write off the loan or anything like that, but simply accept a regular payment. What can they possibly expect to gain from refusing to restructure and accept payments? I appreciate that the loan may be unsecured but surely some payment is better than none and what would they gain from bankrupting you? Are they applying additional interest or fees while refusing payments? I hope not, if they are refusing to accept what you can afford.

I hope that you are able to come to some sort of sensible arrangement. The way you describe it, nobody gains and that is counterproductive to all involved, not least yourself.

Best wishes in solving this problem.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7256 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 12):

So what sort of restrictions, if any (e.g. visas), are there on people simply moving to Norway to study? Can anyone just turn up or is there some sort of screening? And what's in it for Norway to subsidise overseas students?

I think the deal is if you are accepted to a university in Norway, getting a study visa is a given, from what I know so long as you meet the entry criteria you can go. What's in it for Norway, I believe they hope you stay after getting your qualifications, many do. I know a couple of Russians and an Chinese person who have stayed after going to university here.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2423 times:
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Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):
Here in the UK, Scotland provides university education to Scots AND citizens of the EU. All citizens, apart those from those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who have to pay

Yes, very vexing. As for me, I fell into the 'experiment period' of the abolition of grants - starting uni in the year they were abolished, and graduating 1-2 years before they were reinstated. Had they been available, I would certainly have qualified for one. As it is, of course my student debt is nothing like the 100k figures being quoted by some of our American friends, but the repayments every month make the difference between affording to buy a home, and not being able to buy a home. It is not that I expect to receive a completely free university education (though that would of course be desirable), but the levels of support that were available to those most in need when I started were pathetic. Had the current grant levels been around when I studied, I would be finishing my pay-back roughly now. As it is, I have a further three years or so to go, and will be lucky to think about starting to buy a tiny place by the time I'm 40.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2407 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):

Thanks everyone who has been willing to answer my questions on how things work in different countries. I appreciate both your time and effort made in replying.


User currently offlineKlima From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

The best decision I made about college was joining the Air National Guard. I got 100% tuition assistance for going to a public in-state university. I took some loans out to pay for room and board and when I studied abroad, but that debt only amounted to 11k by the time I graduated.

I just wish I'd majored in something useful  

My cousin has over 100k in student loan debt. Her problem was she took out way more money than she needed. Instead of taking out just enough to cover tuition and related costs, she got more money to rent an apartment, furnish the apartment, buy 2 dogs, etc. And she didn't even go to a private university, so the majority of her debt was from buying crap. I wonder how many other students who are drowning in debt have done the same thing?


User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Klima (Reply 20):
the majority of her debt was from buying crap. I wonder how many other students who are drowning in debt have done the same thing?

This is very much the problem. Couple that with a barage of useless degree programs and unrealistic expectations of the students when they get out and you have a fine mess.

Quoting max999 (Reply 21):
Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'

Public Universities in the US are already massively subsidized. The FED ponies up $30 billion alone with billions more spent by the States running their University systems. The average tuition subsidy is around 40%.

[Edited 2013-03-01 09:42:42]

User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2364 times:
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I don't have sympathy; most of the debt is actually in the form of things that are optional, ie costs associated with living alone, costs associated with going to private vs public school , costs associated with going out of state vs instate. This in itself explains about 80% of the debt because instate out of pocket tuition remains very affordable.

User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

I went to school (2010 college grad) with many people who were $100,000 or more in loans. Some of them may have been pushing upwards of $200,000. I feel bad for them, they will never, ever ever be able to get out from under that with the low paying jobs they were forced to get into. Sure, down the road they will make decent money, but the interest goes up so quick they will be paying for decades.

I'm very fortunate to have got into a job that allowed me to pay off my student loans (roughly the amount of a mid-sized car) in 2 years. Now I'm debt free, just over 2 years out of college. IMO, the real problem with the entire economy is that there is simply too much credit available to high school kids to go to college.

-DiamondFlyer


25 Post contains links max999 : http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/24/pf/c.../public-college-tuition/index.html Apparently it's not subsidized enough when the average public university tui
26 EricR : I'm sorry, but instead of pointing the finger at universities for sky high tuition, I can't help but think the majority of the fault lies on the stude
27 jetblueguy22 : Sometimes it isn't that easy. My major was not available at any local University. I had to go all the way to North Dakota to find it. My tuition with
28 einsteinboricua : So...if I wanted to go and study aviation and no campus in my state offers it, I should settle for a business major and then find a way to earn my wi
29 Revelation : One deep down issue is there is a lot of parental fear about the college experience. Parents feel afraid to steer the kid at all lest they be accused
30 EricR : And this comment is exactly what I am referring to when I say it is financial mismanagement on the student's part. Since when is college free? For so
31 VonRichtofen : So what caused tuition to rise so dramitally over the last 40 years? Clearly easy access to loans is a big part of it. Just like the cheap credit bubb
32 srbmod : I guess I was lucky and my college classes and books paid for (before I got bored with college and dropped out after a few years) by my grandmother (S
33 ajd1992 : My fees starting in September are £9000 a year, plus a living costs loan of £3800. I qualify for grants but they're free. Either way, I will graduat
34 Ken777 : Not a problem - I took a couple of courses at Churchland's In addition to all of the ripoffs related to the student loans the guy also got his degree
35 max999 : All kinds of debt, not just tuition debt, is a major problem in the US...one of the big reasons for the 'Great Recession.' Simply put, I believe that
36 StarAC17 : I think now the pendulum has swung the other way where credit for people who want to start businesses or buy homes is very difficult The biggest diff
37 DeltaMD90 : I think more states should do what Georgia does with HOPE scholarship. I think many states have something similar. You need (well, until they made it
38 Cadet985 : They have proof of my monthly income, and a statement from me that I refuse to send them 100% of what I get. Yes, I keep getting billed additional in
39 srbmod : I started college right when the HOPE Scholarship was first introduced and most of the people I knew that qualified for it based on their high school
40 DeltaMD90 : Those 2 things you mentioned were what I didn't like about it... you could be a brand new person in 11th and 12th but 9th and 10th screwed ya, and my
41 max999 : The banks are in a no-win situation because they are so hated by the public. If they loosen credit, someone will criticize them for being irresponsib
42 Post contains images Revelation : Life is a balancing act between what you may want and what you may have. Hopefully you know this before you are 18 and are making a choice about coll
43 Post contains images StarAC17 : It's all a matter of Supply and Demand. Simply put, there has been a massive increase in demand of people going to university because they have been
44 Revelation : And chances are that is correct. There really is not much of a job market for someone without higher education in the US and Canada: there also the s
45 FURUREFA : My tuition this year is $37,576 (or $54,496 if you include health insurance and room/board); this is for a four-year BA degree. That being said, thes
46 Post contains images Revelation : Not really, they exist because someone is paying them ... .. 38% of the undergraduates are! And when you say "some" FA, that means those who only get
47 Pyrex : Sorry, but fault is not of the lenders - this problem is solely of the Government's creation, since, just like in mortgages, they are practically the
48 Ken777 : I'll agree with that for a lot of students. And I believe that we need to start looking at kids when they are 10 to 12 to get an initial indication o
49 BMI727 : There's always private equity, but they're evil. That line sounds like it came straight out of 2006. This governmental and societal cheerleading for
50 Ken777 : You're too young to remember when the housing market was a responsible part of this country's economy. The house we got in the early 70's (using the
51 BMI727 : It still is. The real problems got started when people became convinced, by themselves or by others, that they could afford a house or a house they c
52 flyingturtle : Oh the poor, poor banks. You're blaming the consumers. When I take out a loan I won't meet any bank clerk in Switzerland that does not thoroughly che
53 MD11Engineer : The problem is that the US don´t really have a recognised vocational system with apprenticeships, which offers the not so academically inclined an a
54 BMI727 : It takes two to tango. Part of what led to the meltdown is that the people writing the loans weren't the same people collecting on the loans. Banks w
55 Revelation : Even allowing for rhetoric, I have no idea what you are on about. Yep, too bad we don't do that. From what I can see of the trades, getting in is mos
56 flyingturtle : Nope. The banks are supposed to know the markets as well as watching out for looming housing bubbles and manage the risks accordingly. The blame fall
57 BMI727 : People need to be honest with themselves about what that's worth. To me, it isn't worth much if anything. I hope not. Hell, I hope my thinking never
58 Ken777 : If you are making $30K a year you generally know you can't afford a $300K house. Then comes along a snarky real estate team with "special financing".
59 BMI727 : ...and people signed. They should have known better. Some of those same players who knew how to play the game also got left holding the bag when it c
60 flyingturtle : Yes, they *should* have known better. But whom are you going to trust if somebody offers you a 300'000 loan, but then your yearly income is only 30'0
61 MD11Engineer : This is why German civil law distinguishes between a professional business person (Vollkaufmann, somebody who has a degree in business, law or has do
62 BMI727 : Just because someone offers to sell you something doesn't mean you should buy it. It is. But, if they offer a loan they might make money. If they don
63 FURUREFA : Snide remark aside, our system is such that only those who "should" be able to afford the sticker price are paying it. The school assumes that if com
64 Post contains links zhiao : Fewer than 12% of private college students pay those schools' high sticker prices. Fully 88% of all freshmen at private universities received scholars
65 DocLightning : An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science
66 DeltaMD90 : That is a very interesting idea... I like it a lot. Of course I can see it being abused but if we need some kind of field more than another, give bet
67 BMI727 : Field has to be a consideration when making these loans. Part of it does probably lie in having some of these guaranteed. It's just beyond me why any
68 DocLightning : I think that it's still important to study to be well-rounded. But here's what kills me: where I went to college, I was required to take TEN courses
69 Pyrex : In the U.S. you cannot own a home, as, whether you have a mortgage or "own" it outright, you need to pay property taxes that are far, far in excess o
70 Post contains images Revelation : We do have specific vocational programs at high schools, we do have high schools (gymnasium) that are entirely dedicated to vocational programs, and
71 MD11Engineer : A very close friend of mine has two doctorates in German and American studies each (literature, culture and history from a German and an American uni
72 Revelation : I was more getting after the fact that most industries in the US don't find ways to use entry level workers that have studied at a vocational high sc
73 MD11Engineer : OK, I missunderstood. Companies here see the apprenticeship programmmes as an investment into their own future and often the former apprentices get h
74 Ken777 : If that was the only significant cost from the school I would agree. But let's add in all the Fees and the overpriced text books and that $2,500 expl
75 StarAC17 : Because the banks looked the other way on it and had all of those mortgages insured (win-win) for them. However in 2008 it hit the fan because AIG co
76 MD11Engineer : This is actually what we do here. If you plan to go through the academic (university / college) lane, you´ll do public highschool until grade 12 / 1
77 BMI727 : That's fine, but the issue with funding education is that the cost of an education and the value of an education are almost completely divorced. Univ
78 Revelation : Pretty faulty logic, IMHO. I was at DEC from 1991-2001 and there's no correlation between its failure and a lack of liberal arts education amongst it
79 BMI727 : It shouldn't be the government, it should be someone in their own offices raising red flags about what could happen if the market changes. Otherwise,
80 us330 : A lot of the for-profit universities are only in business because of federal financial aid. It's a great business model for them: they get paid upfro
81 BMI727 : Doctors, lawyers, and pretty much every other professional can do that too. Liberal arts is kind of an "I'm not stupid" diploma.
82 Ken777 : I agree. I was lucky in that I was able to get our first home on the GI Bill - but then I worked for 4 years in uniform for that GI Bill. Ny wife and
83 BMI727 : Is that really the case though? It's well known that we need way more teachers, but why do education students choose to go to expensive private unive
84 Ken777 : Some schools include courses like Economics in their Liberal Arts College. Other people who are looking at Law (and maybe politics) will take Politic
85 Revelation : The private sector was the one that was raking it in knowing that the government and in turn the taxpayers would have no choice but pick up all the p
86 us330 : You have to have a bachelors before you go to professional school--and that's what a decent chunk of liberal arts majors do. And if we are on the top
87 BMI727 : That's fine then, but maybe you shouldn't go into a ton of debt to do it if you're just going to continue to professional school. Law school is basic
88 Post contains images StarAC17 : People who study things like liberal arts are usually the sales people of the world and likely have the personality to manage people well. If you can
89 Ken777 : I'm a very strong believer in homeownership. If we wouldn't purchased the home we live in we still would have been paying rent - but that rent would
90 flyingturtle : Add to that another important thing... liberal arts students have more homework, and they have a greater choice in their lectures. They have to desig
91 us330 : You can also analogize research and writing papers to project management. Much of the work is independent--you have to come up with your own ideas, h
92 flyingturtle : Scientific collaboration in science is much tighter, at least in my experience. You have to allocate lab space, you have to reserve time to use the s
93 BMI727 : Bagels don't order themselves. Engineering students do all of that too, or at least I did and everyone else should too. Some of the things I read or
94 Ken777 : I can remember for years Dad & his assistant kept it a secret that the assistant wasn't an engineer. Everyone thought he was because everyone tho
95 StarAC17 : The only issue I have with the mortgage interest which deduction which we don't have in Canada is that it (to some I reckon) is a deterrent to actual
96 jetmech : A lot of the content engineers discuss and communicate with others is of a highly technical nature. How much of this would be understood by a liberal
97 flyingturtle : I don't think so. The market forces are already playing. Otherwise all the liberal arts students would earn as much as engineers, mathematicians or b
98 BMI727 : But they're only working on one half of the equation. A computer science degree is worth more than a creative writing degree but the cost is the same
99 flyingturtle : And this is just. About 80% of U.S. students attend public colleges and universities. Putting a different price tag on a engineering course vs. a his
100 BMI727 : You wouldn't put a different price tag on the degree to regulate the market, it would be a result of a less regulated market. If loans weren't as eas
101 Revelation : That's one possible way of looking at it. Another is an attempt to wisely utilize limited public resources (in the case of publicly owned and subsidi
102 StarAC17 : A liberal arts graduate can help to get a lot of the technical terms understood by someone with no knowledge of the field. This has to be done when e
103 Post contains links max999 : In the US, many companies in their cost cutting have deemed training programs to be unnecessary. They only want to hire people who will either pay fo
104 max999 : To see the WSJ article I mentioned above, Google for Why Companies Aren't Getting the Employees They Need.
105 Ken777 : For some employers. Not all companies need engineers, but all companies ned accountants and lawyers (even if via outside services). A walk around Bar
106 MD11Engineer : Actually the founder of the German electrical company AEG, Emil Rathenau, said back in the 1920s: "One doesn´t become an enginer, one keeps engineer
107 BMI727 : I'd bet that for each creative writing graduate who has a book on the shelf at Barnes and Noble, there are probably twenty working the registers. And
108 Revelation : IMHO, one of the things that holds Europe back is that many of the elites look down at engineers instead of being thankful that they have them.
109 BMI727 : Remember that the European definition of an engineer is often different. In the US engineers generally work in offices or labs designing things. In E
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