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Student Debt Nears $1 Trillion  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

Rather scary headline that caught my attention.

Quote:

Total student debt has nearly tripled over the past eight years, a new report from the New York Federal Reserve has found.

Total student debt stands at $966 billion as of the fourth quarter of 2012, the N.Y. Fed said in press materials, with a 70 percent increase in both the number of borrowers and the average balance per person. The overall number of borrowers past due on their student loan payments has also grown, from under 10 percent in 2004 to 17 percent in 2012.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...t-debt-new-york-fed_n_2783103.html

It might be easy to hit on the HuffPost, but the information came from the New York Federal Reserve. That gives it a lot of credibility.

It also points to a lot of concerns that are going to be related.

Quote:

Fewer people with student loans are buying homes, according to data in the report. Of borrowers ages 25 to 30 who are taking out new mortgages, the percentage of those with student debt has fallen by half, from nearly 9 percent in 2005 to just above 4 percent in 2012.

When you exclude the insanity (and fraud) of the housing bubble there has been an intelligent progress of home ownership for college grads. Starter homes were a responsible first step, moving up periodically when kids (and salary increases) arrived.

The games related to student loans has cut over half of those graduates from that normal consumer pattern.

Quote:

"I don't like to use the word 'crisis,' because it's a 'crisis' that really can't melt down the same way that the mortgage market did," Chopra said on HuffPost Live. "In fact, a lot of the student loan issues are just going to be a drag on the economy, because young people aren't going to be able to participate like a generation ago when they're making very large payments out of their salaries every single month instead of putting it to better use."

That pretty well points to a deteriorated economy in the future.

With interest rates so low these days it is, I believe, in our interest to allow students and graduates to refinance their loans under the new system. That puts cash into the local economies as soon as the loans are refinanced and the payments are lowered.

Putting that increased cash into the economy can only help. The financial sector would fight that - they are getting super cheap money and are making a killing off of those under the old loan system. Personally I'll go for helping grads, the housing markets and the local economies over the financial sector.

Quote:

The fed's report comes less than 24 hours before the federal sequester is scheduled to take effect, the automatic budget cuts that will cut off federal financial aid for as many as 280,000 students nationwide.

My bet is that won't matter. The financial sector has the money for lobbyists to keep those loans active. With billions going out in annual bonuses.

109 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

It doesn't surprise me one bit. I myself owe over $100k in student loan debt, which I am unable to even think about paying because I can't find a job. Lenders like Sallie Mae don't want to hear that I can't pay because I don't have a job so I've just stopped talking to them. There are many other recent college graduates in similar positions to mine (I'm 27 and graduated college in 2009).

Marc


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
$100k

man! For four years of uni?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
graduated college in 2009

sorry to hear it.

What degree do you have, if you don't mind me asking.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
man! For four years of uni?

Welcome to the USA. I'm sitting on about 60K.

Unfortunately there hasn't been much done to keep college costs from escalating.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

Germany is now going the opposite way: After experiments with study fees for third level university education the states are going back to free and almost free (a nominal semestral fee of a few hundred Euros, mainly for the student´s association and medical insurance). In vocational apprenticeships the apprentices have always been employed by their companies and have received a salary of a few hundred Euros a month, which increased as their experience and knowledge (and therefore their useability for the company) increased. University students still need some income for their daily needs, but they get it either from their parents, through working besides studying or through scholarships.
We realised that the base of our economy is the education of the population. We need highly qualified engineers and scientists as well as highly trained skilled workers.

Jan


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
I'm sitting on about 60K.

Is that the total bill for a degree?
What degree is that for?
What does that include,housing, books etc?


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2569 times:

...and then the president of my university once said in an interview that although he is happy with the 1500 $ / year of tuition (does not matter if philosophy or medicine!), he said that he thinks about raising the fees.

Why?

Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

The Federal Institute of Technology consistently ranks among the five best European universities, and among the twenty best ones world-wide. In spite of a tuition of 1240 $ / year.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2552 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2524 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.

Does that include for foreign students or is it limited to citizens/ permanent residents of Norway?

I ask because a number of countries provide education to nationals either free or for a low fee but charge full-fee for overseas students. Many overseas students' families are willing to pay the higher amount as they see it as a first step to migration and citizenship or improved employment chances and higher living standards elsewhere. The universities are happy to offer places because it means extra funding and the Governments are happy because it improves the balance of payments - education of overseas students is akin to exporting.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
I ask because a number of countries provide education to nationals either free or for a low fee but charge full-fee for overseas students.

Here in the UK, Scotland provides university education to Scots AND citizens of the EU. All citizens, apart those from those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who have to pay.  


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
Does that include for foreign students or is it limited to citizens/ permanent residents of Norway?

University is free for everyone in Norway regardless of where you come from, hence the reason why there are a lot of Chinese studying here.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Asians appear to be pretty happy travelling to Norway where university tuition is free.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):

In Switzerland, we just began to raise tuition fees for aliens. At the moment, many French and Germans attend our universities, but from other countries, there are very few students.

Current tuition fees for all Swiss universities:

http://www.crus.ch/information-progr...dy-in-switzerland.html?L=2#8_Costs


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
hence the reason why there are a lot of Chinese studying here.

So what sort of restrictions, if any (e.g. visas), are there on people simply moving to Norway to study? Can anyone just turn up or is there some sort of screening? And what's in it for Norway to subsidise overseas students?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
In Switzerland, we just began to raise tuition fees for aliens.

I can understand that within the EU and associated areas (I know that CH is not an EU member) that things may be different because of the ease in movement and in taking up employment but I am surprised that fees are not significantly greater for students who themselves or their parents have not paid taxes to support education services. Australia really does see education as an export and has encouraged student visas to support the growth of the education sector.

Sorry Ken. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I will ask a couple of questions as I am not familiar with student loans in the US. I assume that these are provided by private organisations, including banks and not universally provided by the States or Federal Government. Would that be right?

Here in Australia, while some fees need to be paid upfront, much of the education is provided on the basis that a person will "repay a debt" through a levy on income tax once they start working. This means that students don't have to sell their soul to a bank or other financial institution and no-one (in theory) is turned away because they can't afford it. The criteria for admission is whether the student has achieved a suitable score for admission through the examination system. In this respect the "debt" is to the Tax Office and not a private organisation.


User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
There are many other recent college graduates in similar positions to mine (I'm 27 and graduated college in 2009).

I'm not surprised. I had a boss that graduated from a great 4-year college and couldn't find a job. Worked at a fast food restaurant and gas station for a year or two after graduating. He graduated in 2009 and said a lot of his classmates were in a similar situation.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
$100k

man! For four years of uni?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
graduated college in 2009

sorry to hear it.

What degree do you have, if you don't mind me asking.

The school I went to was about $30,000/year including room and board. My grades were average so I didn't get scholarships, and grants were few and far to come by. I was on the five-year-plan. I have a degree in communications with a focus on broadcasting. Here's where my situation gets really screwed up. Since my creditor wants more money per month then I can pay, and won't accept anything less, I don't pay at all. So they report me to the credit bureaus. I don't want to get into specifics, but let's just say that my credit sucks because of this. What's one thing potential employers look at when considering an interview? You guessed it! Your credit score. So...I can't pay off my loans because I don't have money. I don't have money because I can't get a job. I can't get a job because my credit score stinks. I'm stuck in a vicious circle.

Marc


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Because 1500 $ / year is not seen as a sign of quality by U.S. and Asian students and their parents. Why send their sons and daughters to Switzerland if it's *that* darn cheap?

I think university admins worry too much about such things. It's not essential to have huge numbers of international students to have a vibrant university, IMHO.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=76 says that for year 2010-11 the cost (room, tuition, board) for a year of education at a 4 year institution averaged $16k for a public institution and $32k for a private institution. Multiply by four years, and add in the cost of weekend meals, gas money, cell phones, clothes, etc. and you can see why people leave university with six figures of debt.

Compare that to $7k/$14k twenty years earlier in constant (inflation-adjusted) dollars and you can see the problem.

I'm not sure what the root cause is. I've been back to my university and can't see things that cost >2x after inflation than they did 20 years ago.

I'm told that federal and state support for higher education has dropped over the years and more and more of the cost is passed via these costs, which means families and/or eventually financial institutions in the likely case the student can't keep up with the payments.

It's my own theory that as the price for public institutions goes up then the cost for private institutions goes up because the low cost competitor is what is driving the market. Flipping that around, the more we support public institutions, the more the entire cost for higher education goes down.

I think this is a wedge issue. The right doesn't like public support of anything, and is backed by the wealthy who won't be using the public institutions anyway. However they seem to ignore the fact that the world wasn't built exclusively by the graduates of the elite institutions.

I think a lot of what we call the greatest generation yada yada happened because of the huge amount of support for public higher education after WW2. Most of my engineering profs in the early 80s were ex-GIs who trained on the GI Bill. That's the same generation of folks who sent a man to the moon, built the Interstates, and created the integrated circuit, the microprocessor and the Internet (with or without Al Gore).



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 14):
I'm stuck in a vicious circle.

First of all, happy anniversary on Anet.  

My gosh. Your position as stated does suck. I simply can not see the sense in your credit provider accepting less than you can afford to pay if you have advised them of a problem. I don't mean that they should write off the loan or anything like that, but simply accept a regular payment. What can they possibly expect to gain from refusing to restructure and accept payments? I appreciate that the loan may be unsecured but surely some payment is better than none and what would they gain from bankrupting you? Are they applying additional interest or fees while refusing payments? I hope not, if they are refusing to accept what you can afford.

I hope that you are able to come to some sort of sensible arrangement. The way you describe it, nobody gains and that is counterproductive to all involved, not least yourself.

Best wishes in solving this problem.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7251 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 12):

So what sort of restrictions, if any (e.g. visas), are there on people simply moving to Norway to study? Can anyone just turn up or is there some sort of screening? And what's in it for Norway to subsidise overseas students?

I think the deal is if you are accepted to a university in Norway, getting a study visa is a given, from what I know so long as you meet the entry criteria you can go. What's in it for Norway, I believe they hope you stay after getting your qualifications, many do. I know a couple of Russians and an Chinese person who have stayed after going to university here.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2422 times:
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Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):
Here in the UK, Scotland provides university education to Scots AND citizens of the EU. All citizens, apart those from those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who have to pay

Yes, very vexing. As for me, I fell into the 'experiment period' of the abolition of grants - starting uni in the year they were abolished, and graduating 1-2 years before they were reinstated. Had they been available, I would certainly have qualified for one. As it is, of course my student debt is nothing like the 100k figures being quoted by some of our American friends, but the repayments every month make the difference between affording to buy a home, and not being able to buy a home. It is not that I expect to receive a completely free university education (though that would of course be desirable), but the levels of support that were available to those most in need when I started were pathetic. Had the current grant levels been around when I studied, I would be finishing my pay-back roughly now. As it is, I have a further three years or so to go, and will be lucky to think about starting to buy a tiny place by the time I'm 40.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):

Thanks everyone who has been willing to answer my questions on how things work in different countries. I appreciate both your time and effort made in replying.


User currently offlineKlima From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

The best decision I made about college was joining the Air National Guard. I got 100% tuition assistance for going to a public in-state university. I took some loans out to pay for room and board and when I studied abroad, but that debt only amounted to 11k by the time I graduated.

I just wish I'd majored in something useful  

My cousin has over 100k in student loan debt. Her problem was she took out way more money than she needed. Instead of taking out just enough to cover tuition and related costs, she got more money to rent an apartment, furnish the apartment, buy 2 dogs, etc. And she didn't even go to a private university, so the majority of her debt was from buying crap. I wonder how many other students who are drowning in debt have done the same thing?


User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Quoting Klima (Reply 20):
the majority of her debt was from buying crap. I wonder how many other students who are drowning in debt have done the same thing?

This is very much the problem. Couple that with a barage of useless degree programs and unrealistic expectations of the students when they get out and you have a fine mess.

Quoting max999 (Reply 21):
Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'

Public Universities in the US are already massively subsidized. The FED ponies up $30 billion alone with billions more spent by the States running their University systems. The average tuition subsidy is around 40%.

[Edited 2013-03-01 09:42:42]

User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2363 times:
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I don't have sympathy; most of the debt is actually in the form of things that are optional, ie costs associated with living alone, costs associated with going to private vs public school , costs associated with going out of state vs instate. This in itself explains about 80% of the debt because instate out of pocket tuition remains very affordable.

User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2358 times:

I went to school (2010 college grad) with many people who were $100,000 or more in loans. Some of them may have been pushing upwards of $200,000. I feel bad for them, they will never, ever ever be able to get out from under that with the low paying jobs they were forced to get into. Sure, down the road they will make decent money, but the interest goes up so quick they will be paying for decades.

I'm very fortunate to have got into a job that allowed me to pay off my student loans (roughly the amount of a mid-sized car) in 2 years. Now I'm debt free, just over 2 years out of college. IMO, the real problem with the entire economy is that there is simply too much credit available to high school kids to go to college.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2437 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 22):
Public Universities in the US are already massively subsidized. The FED ponies up $30 billion alone with billions more spent by the States running their University systems. The average tuition subsidy is around 40%.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/24/pf/c.../public-college-tuition/index.html

Apparently it's not subsidized enough when the average public university tuition is $8,655 per year (excluding rooming, board, textbooks, etc) and it has risen 104% in the past 10 years.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2439 times:

I'm sorry, but instead of pointing the finger at universities for sky high tuition, I can't help but think the majority of the fault lies on the student.

There are so many ways to get a degree without accumulating $60K or higher of debt. The ones who have accumulated all this debt and are now complaining about it are the ones who wanted to attend a 4 year, out-of-state university with complete disregard of the cost and how they are going to repay these loans. It is financial mismanagement on the student's part.

In hindsight, I'm sure many of those who racked up enormous debt now wish they had gone to a community college for the first two years and then on to a university close to home so that it would not require room & board, worked harder in high school to get a scholarship of some sort, worked part time during college for a company that would give tuition assistance, sought out grant assistance, etc. etc, etc,

But in the U.S. these days, its never anyone's own fault, its always someone else's fault.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2783 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting EricR (Reply 26):
The ones who have accumulated all this debt and are now complaining about it are the ones who wanted to attend a 4 year, out-of-state university with complete disregard of the cost and how they are going to repay these loans. It is financial mismanagement on the student's part.

Sometimes it isn't that easy. My major was not available at any local University. I had to go all the way to North Dakota to find it. My tuition with room and board is about 25,000 with flight costs about 16-20k a year on top of that. My school is cheap too compared to other schools with the same degree. I'm not just going to go to a local school to get a degree in something I don't want to do.

I can believe it's this high. I'm fortunate that my folks can cover my tuition. I still have to cover my flight costs but not having to pay tuition is a huge relief. I already have about 25,000 in loans and I'm not too far into my schooling. The only good part about my school is they hire a huge amount of recent grads as flight instructors so I have the opportunity to get a job when I finish. I only wish access to government loans was easier. Just because my mother does well doesn't mean she can afford two kids in college. I get a pretty small amount of government loans. I'm honestly scared of what is going to happen when I graduate and banks start chasing me for money.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3053 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2413 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 26):
There are so many ways to get a degree without accumulating $60K or higher of debt. The ones who have accumulated all this debt and are now complaining about it are the ones who wanted to attend a 4 year, out-of-state university with complete disregard of the cost and how they are going to repay these loans. It is financial mismanagement on the student's part.

So...if I wanted to go and study aviation and no campus in my state offers it, I should settle for a business major and then find a way to earn my wings? I don't know why I think that if this were the case, I would be told that it's my fault for not taking a risk (or that if I really don't want business then I should dropout or go to a community college).

Bottom line: we know the risks involved when choosing a college. However, I shouldn't settle for good if I can be the best...partly a reason I have dreaded the past 6 years studying engineering instead of aviation.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

One deep down issue is there is a lot of parental fear about the college experience. Parents feel afraid to steer the kid at all lest they be accused of wrecking their future. That fear drives a lot of parents to make a lot of unwise decisions, ones bad for the kid and bad for themselves. They'd rather put tens of thousands of dollars that they and the kid(s) don't have just to avoid that fear. The entire system is geared around getting either the parents or the government to co-sign for massive loans, ones they'd never take out under other circumstances.

Another deep down issue is it's all but impossible to decide up front which kid will be a good student and what area of studies a student should persue. Given this uncertainty, it seems the system just lets kids sort it out for themselves and puts them, their parents, and the entire system itself at risk when it all doesn't work out.

Quoting max999 (Reply 21):
Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'

Well, there is a great spectrum between total socialism and total conservatism.

In the conservative system, you end up with mostly the children of the wealthy getting educated and/or the profit imperative making it so that people get diplomas without actually getting educated.

In the liberal system, you end up with everything being funded equally (poorly), which typically ends up with lots of weak students either dropping out or taking majors that are easy to pass that don't contribute much back to society.

The current system ends up with a lot of the worst of both, with the insiders at the public institutions feeling they have to provide lots of costly extras because they feel like they are competing with the private sector.

The core issue is you can't decide who really is going to be a good student or where the economy will want them to be when they graduate and years after as their skills grow.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 24):
IMO, the real problem with the entire economy is that there is simply too much credit available to high school kids to go to college.

Yes, that's the root cause.

It's fuelled by parents with a guilt complex that makes them do whatever the kid wants to do, instead of treating it like any other decision you'd make that involves tens of thousands of dollars. Quite often these parents will co-sign loans that eventually drag them down. Also the US system allows for a lot of government-backed loans that never get paid off.

It's also fuelled by student expectations. Even back in the olden days living off-campus was a lot better than living on-campus, but if you did the math it cost a lot more. The dorms I lived in had two guys per room in bunk beds and a common shower. The ones they build now have individual rooms with a common living area. Sure it sucked to have to share a room with a dude who got wasted and was going to be puking all nite, so you learned to work things out with your neighbors and sleep on an air mattress. Like it or not, it taught you basic coping skills.

Quoting max999 (Reply 25):
Apparently it's not subsidized enough when the average public university tuition is $8,655 per year (excluding rooming, board, textbooks, etc) and it has risen 104% in the past 10 years.

As above, it's hard to understand why costs have doubled so quickly. The numbers I posted said >2x in 20 years including room and board and adjusting for inflation.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 27):
I'm not just going to go to a local school to get a degree in something I don't want to do.

Then the right answer would have been to go work till you save enough money to pay for what you want, or change your mind and decide to do something you and your family can afford. Move to ND long enough to earn residency. Join the local guard to get cheap tuition. Otherwise you end up with:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 27):
banks start chasing me for money.

... however the odds are good that you won't have any for them to give, especially if you are wanting to be a pilot.

Getting six figures in debt to get a job that pays, oh, $16-20k to start is a recipe for disaster. Not trying to pick on you specifically, but it's a strong example of how messed up the system is.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 28):
So...if I wanted to go and study aviation and no campus in my state offers it, I should settle for a business major and then find a way to earn my wings? I don't know why I think that if this were the case, I would be told that it's my fault for not taking a risk (or that if I really don't want business then I should dropout or go to a community college).



And this comment is exactly what I am referring to when I say it is financial mismanagement on the student's part.

Since when is college free? For some reason there is a mentality among students that they should be able to go to any school and study any major. Until college becomes free (or you find other ways to fund your college tuition such as the many ways I listed above), then you have to choose what you can afford. However, too many students put little or no thought into the cost and then are faced with loans they cannot repay. They become financially strapped for the rest of their lives.

So to answer your question - sure - go right ahead and rack up $100K in student loans to pursue a major you love, but simply cannot afford, and see how your lifestyle is 5 years after graduating. You will be forever financially strapped. This is the same mentality that caught so many people off guard in the housing crisis. People went out and bought homes that were well above what they could afford. One would think society would learn from past mistakes.


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4627 posts, RR: 36
Reply 31, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2372 times:

So what caused tuition to rise so dramitally over the last 40 years? Clearly easy access to loans is a big part of it. Just like the cheap credit bubble propped up the housing market.


Word
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

I guess I was lucky and my college classes and books paid for (before I got bored with college and dropped out after a few years) by my grandmother (She pretty much split the money she had originally saved up for my mom to go to college between my sister and myself.) and college costs 20 years ago were not that bad and I was going to a state school. Back in the early 90s it cost about $1800-2000 a year (in-state) as a full time student at the two year school I went to before briefly transferring to a four year school. These days, those costs are around $5000 a year.

I remember when I was looking at colleges this time 20+ years ago, I was looking at several out of state schools but opted against them because they want $14,000-17,000 a year for out of state students. I definitely would have had to applied for financial aid and possibly taken out some student loans. My sister was going to a private college back in the early 90s and they wanted $15,000 a year and she ended up having to take out student loans because she couldn't get enough grant money and my grandmother was only partially covering her tuition because of the high costs to attend the school.

These days it is not uncommon for someone to graduate with $40,000-$60,000+ in student loan debts and for someone just getting out into the workforce, it can be difficult to keep up with the payments and it overwhelms many of them. Some colleges have gotten more expensive due to increased student activities fees used to help fun fledgling football and other collegiate sports.


User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2343 times:

My fees starting in September are £9000 a year, plus a living costs loan of £3800. I qualify for grants but they're free.

Either way, I will graduate at the age of 25 in 2017 with debts of around £50,000. That's ridiculous, although they are nice on how you repay it - you pay nothing if you earn under £21,000, then when you earn over that, it's only taxed on what you earn OVER 21k, not the entire amount. If you drop below 21k for whatever reason, no repayments. If you get to 30 years and it's not paid off, no worry - it's written off anyway.

Uni education for poor people and rich people is easy in the UK. If you're middle class you qualify for few loans and no grants but can't afford to pay up front necessarily. Madness.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 12):
Sorry Ken. I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Not a problem - I took a couple of courses at Churchland's

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 13):
He graduated in 2009 and said a lot of his classmates were in a similar situation.

In addition to all of the ripoffs related to the student loans the guy also got his degree at the peak of the Great Recession, making it the worst time to get a degree. I find it amazing that we were able to bail out the financial institutions at that time, but not unemployed graduates unable to find a job.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Compare that to $7k/$14k twenty years earlier in constant (inflation-adjusted) dollars and you can see the problem.

Or the $250 a semester tuition at a local private university when I went. (LSU had a $25 per semester tuition for in state residents at that time - the early 60's)

THe standard in those days was that a student could graduate from a first rate state school and generally be debt free. He or she might have worked a part time job a bit for spending money with the parents picking up some of the costs. bit more expensive than just after WW II, but that system still served this country very well.

Now it's simply a game about money. The schools play it, the bookstores play it and the financial institutions play it. The result is that instead of being a strong, positive impact on the country like WW II it is going to be a drag on the economy for generations.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
We realised that the base of our economy is the education of the population. We need highly qualified engineers and scientists as well as highly trained skilled workers.

Germany is pretty far ahead of the US today when it comes to developing an educated population. We've dropped down so much that we even have large corporations advertising on TV that we need to educate more people in the math and sciences.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):
All citizens, apart those from those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, who have to pay.

LOL! I'm married to a lass born in Dundee and that exclusion of England, Wales and Northern Ireland is actually pretty funny for me.]

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
for year 2010-11 the cost (room, tuition, board) for a year of education at a 4 year institution averaged $16k for a public institution and $32k for a private institution.

Tulsa actually has developed something intelligent - study in High School, graduate and immediately enroll in a local junior college and your tuition is waived. You still have other costs, but it's a step forward.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I'm told that federal and state support for higher education has dropped over the years and more and more of the cost is passed via these costs, which means families and/or eventually financial institutions in the likely case the student can't keep up with the payments.

We have gone from a country that understands that education can be a major force in growing a country to one that believes that universities should be a revenue center. Huge amounts of money, especially with the student loan games that the financial sector worked up.

I was surprised that i actually agree with Rick Perry down in Texas who is pushing for a $10,000 cost for a 4 year university degree. I'm amazed that the guy can actually comes up with such a good idea considering how much they hate teaching science in texas.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
The right doesn't like public support of anything, and is backed by the wealthy who won't be using the public institutions anyway.

Unfortunately the Right is pretty stupid when it comes to long term investments in the country - which is what education is. Germany is a mile ahead - as noted above.

As for the rich not getting anything from state schools, start with engineers.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I think a lot of what we call the greatest generation yada yada happened because of the huge amount of support for public higher education after WW2.

There has never ben any doubt about that and the country continued to benefit when their children went to university,

Quoting max999 (Reply 21):

Conservatives here in the US - 'Subsidizing low-cost or free college education? That's socialism and simply cannot be done!'

That would be right. But conservatives never complain when they receive benefits.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 22):
This is very much the problem.
Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 22):
Public Universities in the US are already massively subsidized.

So where we need to start is with changes that get the US more benefits from the money invested.

Let's start with allowing students & grads with the "old system" of student loans to refinance under the new system. If financial institutions won't allow that then (1) end their federal guarantee and (2) add in a windfall profit tax.

Then let's look at where research grants are going. Send those grants to schools that don't leave students in a lifetime of debt.. Focus more on state schools that have the lowest costs.

And let's address those over-priced text books. Use Federal Grants to "motivate" schools to go to ebooks at a very low cost, or free. $30 Billion is a lot of motivation.

We also need to recognize that often times a lot can be achieved for students with a 2 year degree. In 2 years a student can become a physical therapy assistant, or occupational therapy assistant. Pass the licensing test and start earning some pretty decent money.

And there are a lot of other JC courses that lead to jobs.

We also need to rebuild strong apprenticeship programs for young people. I like the Australian approach simply because I saw it performing so much better than ours.


User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 24):
IMO, the real problem with the entire economy is that there is simply too much credit available to high school kids to go to college.

All kinds of debt, not just tuition debt, is a major problem in the US...one of the big reasons for the 'Great Recession.' Simply put, I believe that with our stagnant wages over the past 20 years combined with the massive increases in cost of living in everything from tuition, housing, energy, etc...middle to low income Americans have kept up only by using lots of credit. The banks are responding to consumer demand for debt by making as making credit readily available...maybe it is too easily available.

So if we really want to resolve the debt problems of this country, we need to look for ways to increase the wages of low/middle income Americas so they can start spending with real cash instead of debt.

[Edited 2013-03-01 13:41:00]


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting max999 (Reply 35):
The banks are responding to consumer demand for debt by making as making credit readily available...maybe it is too easily available.

I think now the pendulum has swung the other way where credit for people who want to start businesses or buy homes is very difficult

Quoting max999 (Reply 35):
All kinds of debt, not just tuition debt, is a major problem in the US...one of the big reasons for the 'Great Recession.'

The biggest difference with student loan debt is that it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy meaning that it needs to be paid off.

This gives those lenders little to no incentive to re-finance student loans where as with traditional loans the lender has an interest in re-financing because if the don't and that person goes bankrupt the lender takes a loss.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7874 posts, RR: 52
Reply 37, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

I think more states should do what Georgia does with HOPE scholarship. I think many states have something similar. You need (well, until they made it harder because they were going broke) a 3.0 and to be full time (first semester went off high school grades.) Between that and the military, I got a free ride and then some.

There are also a lot of scholarship opportunities that often to unused that people could snag.

But at the end of the day, I know a lot of smart, responsible people that have a lot of debt and it really isn't their fault. I think the government shouldn't push college so much, I think tech schools are just as good and more appropriate for some people.

Student debt is what I see as a good investment (it's better when the economy doesn't suck and all it does is produce a lot of worthless degrees or put people in jobs that pay so low it's hard to pay off the debt.) Optimally, it improves education, makes a smarter workforce, gives people opportunity, and the debt (all of it, right?) eventually gets paid.

I get mad at the government spending money frivolously, but I don't see this as really spending, more like loaning it out (hence the name student loans, I guess)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 16):
First of all, happy anniversary on Anet.  
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 16):
My gosh. Your position as stated does suck. I simply can not see the sense in your credit provider accepting less than you can afford to pay if you have advised them of a problem. I don't mean that they should write off the loan or anything like that, but simply accept a regular payment. What can they possibly expect to gain from refusing to restructure and accept payments? I appreciate that the loan may be unsecured but surely some payment is better than none and what would they gain from bankrupting you? Are they applying additional interest or fees while refusing payments? I hope not, if they are refusing to accept what you can afford.

They have proof of my monthly income, and a statement from me that I refuse to send them 100% of what I get. Yes, I keep getting billed additional interest and fees on the loans so every month, the debt goes up. They've told me that they want a minimum of $1100/month. When you're not making that, it's not possible to pay that, and they won't discuss forbearance or anything like that. So at this point, I'm almost waiting for them to sue me for the loan. I'll be able to show that the only thing I own worth any money is this laptop, and I'm sure any judge would side with me. I'd counter sue for harassment and damages since it's a fact that they have put negative marks on my credit score, and a low credit score (mine is below 600) will keep one from getting any type of job other than say at McDonald's (which I can't do for health reasons - I can't stand for long periods due to a bad ankle injury).

Marc


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2277 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):

I think more states should do what Georgia does with HOPE scholarship. I think many states have something similar. You need (well, until they made it harder because they were going broke) a 3.0 and to be full time (first semester went off high school grades.) Between that and the military, I got a free ride and then some.

I started college right when the HOPE Scholarship was first introduced and most of the people I knew that qualified for it based on their high school grades lost it by the end of their Freshman year of college. I never got it because I didn't graduate high school with a 3.0 GPA (Screwing off my first two years of high school killed my GPA.) and I was always just on the cusp of being eligible for it when I was in college. The only scholarship I ever got in college was for one semester my sophomore year, as one of the two students in my major that were getting a partial scholarship from the Fine Arts department wasn't taking any classes that semester and I was given it and it covered about half my course costs that quarter.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7874 posts, RR: 52
Reply 40, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 39):

Those 2 things you mentioned were what I didn't like about it... you could be a brand new person in 11th and 12th but 9th and 10th screwed ya, and my lowest semester was my first semester, and it is for a lot of people (most that I've known.) I guess a cut off must be made but I think it could be a little bit more lenient in these cases (somehow... guess they really can't since GA is broke like everyone else it seems)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 36):
I think now the pendulum has swung the other way where credit for people who want to start businesses or buy homes is very difficult

The banks are in a no-win situation because they are so hated by the public. If they loosen credit, someone will criticize them for being irresponsible. If the banks remain tight with credit, someone will criticize them for holding back on economic growth. The middle ground in the right amount of lending and risk becomes impossible to achieve.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 42, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 28):
So...if I wanted to go and study aviation and no campus in my state offers it, I should settle for a business major and then find a way to earn my wings?

Life is a balancing act between what you may want and what you may have. Hopefully you know this before you are 18 and are making a choice about college. If not, it's a great time to learn. Hopefully the cost isn't decades of not being able to get credit because you didn't learn.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34):
Now it's simply a game about money. The schools play it, the bookstores play it and the financial institutions play it. The result is that instead of being a strong, positive impact on the country like WW II it is going to be a drag on the economy for generations.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34):
We have gone from a country that understands that education can be a major force in growing a country to one that believes that universities should be a revenue center. Huge amounts of money, especially with the student loan games that the financial sector worked up.

  

I fear we have only seen the beginning. For-profit "universities" are in their early days. Wait till they really penetrate the right offices in Washington and we'll think today is the good old days. One of the more notorious diploma mills has made its in with my employer and is spamming our internal e-mail accounts.

Quoting max999 (Reply 35):
All kinds of debt, not just tuition debt, is a major problem in the US...one of the big reasons for the 'Great Recession.'

Right, but the theory behind education is that it enables you to gain access to a higher paying job, unlike, let's say a McMansion or a luxury car.

The problem with that theory is that it very much depends on the student, the economy and the school.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):

So what caused tuition to rise so dramitally over the last 40 years? Clearly easy access to loans is a big part of it. Just like the cheap credit bubble propped up the housing market.

It's all a matter of Supply and Demand.

Simply put, there has been a massive increase in demand of people going to university because they have been told time and time again they have to. In today's world getting some kind of education beyond high school is pretty much mandatory so with the increased demand the prices go up. Also the purpose of universities is to make money at the end of the day so they will take all the money given to them.

Quoting max999 (Reply 41):
The middle ground in the right amount of lending and risk becomes impossible to achieve.

   It's fairly easy to achieve and all is requires is a bank doing due diligence.

Saying that if you are an aspiring entrepreneur youe best best is seeking out venture capitalists over banks because they have more stakes in your success.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):

Simply put, there has been a massive increase in demand of people going to university because they have been told time and time again they have to.

And chances are that is correct. There really is not much of a job market for someone without higher education in the US and Canada: there also the supply exceeds the demand.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
Also the purpose of universities is to make money at the end of the day so they will take all the money given to them.

Most unis are either publicly owned or controlled by not-for-profit foundations.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
It's fairly easy to achieve and all is requires is a bank doing due diligence.

It seems to not be happening. I recall filling in the standard 'Financial Aid Form' was quite a chore decades ago, and seems to be worse now, yet I hear of very few rejections, and lots of cases of students with six figure debts and no realistic prospects of paying them off.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 801 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 5):

Is that the total bill for a degree?
What degree is that for?
What does that include,housing, books etc?

My tuition this year is $37,576 (or $54,496 if you include health insurance and room/board); this is for a four-year BA degree.

That being said, these "sticker prices" are a little bit misleading. My university has the most generous financial aid program in the country (all grant based, no loans); 62% of undergraduate students receive some sort of financial aid (students with parents whose income


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 46, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 45):
That being said, these "sticker prices" are a little bit misleading.

Not really, they exist because someone is paying them ...

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 45):
62% of undergraduate students receive some sort of financial aid

.. 38% of the undergraduates are!

And when you say "some" FA, that means those who only get a small percent of that large bill are lumped into that 62%.

It'd be a lot more informative if they said N% of all undergraduate tuition/fees/books/room/board are covered via financial aid.

This is called critical thinking, something I hope you are picking up at your university!  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 47, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2032 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Lenders like Sallie Mae don't want to hear that I can't pay because I don't have a job so I've just stopped talking to them.

Sorry, but fault is not of the lenders - this problem is solely of the Government's creation, since, just like in mortgages, they are practically the only lender there is. "I am from the Government and I am here to help" - one of the scariest set of words in the English language.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 31):
So what caused tuition to rise so dramitally over the last 40 years? Clearly easy access to loans is a big part of it. Just like the cheap credit bubble propped up the housing market.

Bingo. The government throwing money around.

Quoting max999 (Reply 35):
The banks are responding to consumer demand for debt by making as making credit readily available...maybe it is too easily available.

Banks don't provide student loans, the government does.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
For-profit "universities" are in their early days

All universities are for-profit, it is just that some are honest enough to admit. By far the most expensive expenditure of my life was a little piece of paper I bought from a "non-profit" university - an institution run by faculty for the benefit of faculty. Just because you manage to blow all your money because of tremendous amounts of waste doesn't mean you are a non-profit - with that logic, General Motors is a non-profit too.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):

Saying that if you are an aspiring entrepreneur youe best best is seeking out venture capitalists over banks because they have more stakes in your success.

Banks are not in the business of providing equity, they are in the business of providing debt. If more people knew the difference between the two (along with perhaps a bit of Capital Structure 101) we wouldn't be in the mess we are in.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 48, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
I think the government shouldn't push college so much, I think tech schools are just as good and more appropriate for some people.

I'll agree with that for a lot of students. And I believe that we need to start looking at kids when they are 10 to 12 to get an initial indication of where they can be both reasonably successful and reasonably happy. That is going to lead some kids to a "professional course" (college bound) and some to a "trades course", be it electrician or aircraft mechanic.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Student debt is what I see as a good investment

It depends. 40 years ago it was fine, today (pre-Obama reform) it is a disaster, The difference is that too many people/industries started looking at universities as a great place to suck out a lot of money, with students paying off a debt for far too many years. Overburdening loans that cannot be refinanced under today's standards. Overpriced text books, often delivering generic information. Overpriced tuition & fees.

The university debt game is not a good investment for most students, nor is it a good investment for the country. Go back to Reply 4 to see how Germany handles it. And try to look at it as a long term investment for the county.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
I fear we have only seen the beginning. For-profit "universities" are in their early days.

That is one of the scary new fads. Massive student, high profits and no oversight on the quality of the product.

Maybe we need to have some regulations and oversight as vets on the GI Bill have been a target for the rip off deals.

And maybe some significant fines for those schools who don't deliver performance at a responsible level.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
And chances are that is correct. There really is not much of a job market for someone without higher education in the US and Canada: there also the supply exceeds the demand.

Looking at the trades you can find some jobs. Have you had to pay a plumber recently? Those are the guys that will be able to buy a new car and pay in cash.

Same with electricians, carpenters, etc. Get them young - start apprenticeships at 16 and train them well. Focus their non-job related courses on intelligent courses they can use in life - like personal finance.

That's pretty well how it worked when I worked in Australia. A clerk who worked with me (and her bricklayer boyfriend) were building a 2300 sq ft home. Her boyfriend had helped his mates in other trades when they built their house so guess who showed up to work for free for them. The house was finished and fully furnished by the wedding. And there was NO DEBT for the house or furnishings. She was 23 and he was 25 and they were debt free home owners.

BTW, saw her about 3 years later and they were building a 3500 sq ft home. Same financial situation - fully paid for before they moved in.

When I compare that to a US graduate with a mountain of debt they will pay for over 20 or 30 years and a lower chance of home ownership the overpriced educations that do not deliver solid jobs is pretty much a joke.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):
"I am from the Government and I am here to help"

Doesn't scare me a bit. If they want to help build an Interstate System I'm not scared. If they want to get that totally unnecessary, grossly overpriced albatross of health insurance off the backs of employers I'm nor scared - especially when I see just how poor our outcomes are compared to the rest of the world.

If the government wants to set up a Social Security system for Americans to contribute to during their working years I'm not scared. My only fear (and it is a real one) is that the Financial Sector will get their hands on those trillions - they are sure trying hard to screw up the system.

I'm certainly not afraid of talking to FBI Agents (did that & identified a gal who had passed stolen money orders), I'm not afraid to fly commercially knowing that the ATC is staffed with government employees. I'm not afraid to drive over a bridge built to federal specifications, or take a vaccine that the government has helped developed and get in the hands of public health departments.

I appreciate the police cars driving around this part of the city and the fire department station that is half a mile away.

Saint Reagan loved that line, which is a pity as it didn't really help this country in the end.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 49, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):
Banks are not in the business of providing equity, they are in the business of providing debt.

There's always private equity, but they're evil.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
When I compare that to a US graduate with a mountain of debt they will pay for over 20 or 30 years and a lower chance of home ownership

That line sounds like it came straight out of 2006. This governmental and societal cheerleading for home ownership is part of how you ended up with the housing bubble. The whole idea that really being American or being successful means owning a house is part of how this whole mess started.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
This governmental and societal cheerleading for home ownership is part of how you ended up with the housing bubble.

You're too young to remember when the housing market was a responsible part of this country's economy.

The house we got in the early 70's (using the GI Bill) was a pretty solid program. The mortgage company took their time, verified income & expenses, etc. We didn't have the explosive inflation, but that wasn't the point. We also had 235 homes in our new neighborhood - a government program for people on low incomes - and these were bought by people working jobs and paying bills.

Seems to me that our real problems got started when the conservatives put making a lot of money quickly over the interests of the country.

In terms of home ownership, I believe it is a great long term investment when there is a responsible market. It does a lot for growing an asset that can be used in retirement. My generation is in pretty good shape, home wise, but your generation is going to have some major problems as they age. We've protected our kids from needing student loans, but a lot of parents simply were not able to. That is where the student debt is going g to drive the economy down.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 51, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 50):
You're too young to remember when the housing market was a responsible part of this country's economy.

It still is.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 50):
Seems to me that our real problems got started when the conservatives put making a lot of money quickly over the interests of the country.

The real problems got started when people became convinced, by themselves or by others, that they could afford a house or a house they couldn't really afford. Consumers also began believing that the housing market would only go one direction: up.

It set up a situation where consumers thought that 1) to live the American dream or to have "made it" you had to own a home and 2) owning a home was a foolproof, guaranteed investment. Lenders didn't care much since they saw the market going up and they were just going to package up the mortgages and sell them off anyway, they had no interest in collecting themselves.

The point of all this is that the media and society needs to stop telling people that they have to own a home. They don't. The mystique of home ownership has to end because assigning that sort of goodwill value to ownership partly contributed to the bubble. People have to go back and see a home for what it is: an asset and a line on the balance sheet.

It's great to say that student loan debt should drop because being deep in debt is bad. But it's not good to say that student debt should drop so they can have a different debt instead by buying a home. I understand why you think that way, after all you do need a market to prop up the value of your own home, but I know better. Hopefully others in my generation do too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1852 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The real problems got started when people became convinced, by themselves or by others, that they could afford a house or a house they couldn't really afford. Consumers also began believing that the housing market would only go one direction: up.

Oh the poor, poor banks. You're blaming the consumers. When I take out a loan I won't meet any bank clerk in Switzerland that does not thoroughly check my financial pluses and minuses. They want to be sure to get the money back in the next 10 to 20 years.

It is the duty of the bank to minimize risks. The bank employees are the financial experts, *not* the house owner. Normally, banks behave like financial experts and demand interest rates that appropriately reflect the risk of not getting the loan back.

The end of the story is that if you're unable to pay back the loan, you simply do not have to. The housing market gets upset, and my 1'000'000 loan is crippling me while the home is only worth 200'000? Good luck, BearStearnsMorganStanleyFannieMaeAndFreddieMac. The interest rates are there to cover that risk. Banking 101.


David

[Edited 2013-03-03 04:00:56]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
Simply put, there has been a massive increase in demand of people going to university because they have been told time and time again they have to. In today's world getting some kind of education beyond high school is pretty much mandatory so with the increased demand the prices go up. Also the purpose of universities is to make money at the end of the day so they will take all the money given to them.

The problem is that the US don´t really have a recognised vocational system with apprenticeships, which offers the not so academically inclined an alternative education after highschool.

Come on, in the US an aircraft mechanic with a FAA airframe and powerplant licence is considered "semiskilled". To get his licence he had to show three years of work experience on aircraft, plus passing several theoretical and practical exams. The equivalent (through structured training with both classroom and on-the-job elements) over here would be a journeyman´s certificate of being an aircraft mechanic, which would make the person counted as skilled worker EU wide. He then would have the chance to improve himself to become a master mechanic after a few years of experience, probably gaining an EASA B1 licence and would in many companies elegible for a supervisor or shiftleader position .

Jan


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 52):
Oh the poor, poor banks. You're blaming the consumers.

It takes two to tango.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 52):
When I take out a loan I won't meet any bank clerk in Switzerland that does not thoroughly check my financial pluses and minuses. They want to be sure to get the money back in the next 10 to 20 years.

Part of what led to the meltdown is that the people writing the loans weren't the same people collecting on the loans. Banks were making these loans and then selling them off as securities.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):
All universities are for-profit, it is just that some are honest enough to admit. By far the most expensive expenditure of my life was a little piece of paper I bought from a "non-profit" university - an institution run by faculty for the benefit of faculty. Just because you manage to blow all your money because of tremendous amounts of waste doesn't mean you are a non-profit - with that logic, General Motors is a non-profit too.

Even allowing for rhetoric, I have no idea what you are on about.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
Looking at the trades you can find some jobs. Have you had to pay a plumber recently? Those are the guys that will be able to buy a new car and pay in cash.

Same with electricians, carpenters, etc. Get them young - start apprenticeships at 16 and train them well. Focus their non-job related courses on intelligent courses they can use in life - like personal finance.

Yep, too bad we don't do that. From what I can see of the trades, getting in is mostly about who you know.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 50):
Seems to me that our real problems got started when the conservatives put making a lot of money quickly over the interests of the country.

Yep, the 80s was the era of the corporate raider, junk bonds and the S&L crisis.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The point of all this is that the media and society needs to stop telling people that they have to own a home. They don't.

Says the guy living with his parents...

While I'm mostly in agreement with what you are saying, there is some actual value in terms of quality of living and piece of mind in home ownership. Your thinking may shift a bit after a few years of renting.

Where I agree is that said value does get oversold, but that's just marketing, same as what we see for autos, etc.

In particular, females with that nesting/nurturing side seem to buy into the hype and seem to throw caution to the wind when it comes to home ownership.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The mystique of home ownership has to end because assigning that sort of goodwill value to ownership partly contributed to the bubble.

Yes, it contributed, but what really accelerated it was banks loaning amounts of money to people one could easily see could never pay it off.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
People have to go back and see a home for what it is: an asset and a line on the balance sheet.

That should be the primary way of looking at it. A person/couple/family needs housing and that needs to fit into the family budget without taking on unsustainable debts. Home ownership should be considered only once it makes financial sense.

Early when I got out of college I looked into home ownership and was given a booklet that laid out a few simple guidelines. They said only buy a home if you think you'll be in it five or more years, and never take on debt more than twice your annual family income. Unfortunately it seems not too many followed those guidelines.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
It takes two to tango.

Nope. The banks are supposed to know the markets as well as watching out for looming housing bubbles and manage the risks accordingly. The blame falls on the one of the two who has the better expertise in finances. End of the story. It is all about how much a customer can reasonably trust the bank clerk. When I ask for a 500k $ mortgage and he shoves another 500k down my throat (Well, because a swimming pool and a patio are NICE, and the interests are LOW!), do I have a reason to expect a housing crisis in the next years? NO!

Because... I'm not a financial expert. The onus is on the better trained and more experienced person to avoid and minimize risks, and this has been all the time in civil law. The reason I'm so sure about this? I offer mountain tours, in any accident the blame will first fall on me because I have been trained as a guide. So I'm supposed to take all reasonable steps to foresee, avoid and minimize risks. Or else I have to pay damages.

But somehow there is an accepted double standard. Financial corporations will get bailed by the government, while the customers that have been lulled with low interests get their homes repossessed.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1791 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
While I'm mostly in agreement with what you are saying, there is some actual value in terms of quality of living and piece of mind in home ownership.

People need to be honest with themselves about what that's worth. To me, it isn't worth much if anything.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Your thinking may shift a bit after a few years of renting.

I hope not. Hell, I hope my thinking never shifts because every potential shift can be damn expensive.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Where I agree is that said value does get oversold, but that's just marketing, same as what we see for autos, etc.

There is a ton of marketing. Mutual funds are not part of the "American Dream." And there are no commercials on television touting that kids whose parents own treasury bonds do better in school. That said, it's not entirely the same as other purchases.

The first thing is simply the magnitude. A house is, for the vast majority of people, the biggest purchase they'll make. Getting burned on a new fridge or even a car simply cannot do the same sort of financial damage as a house can.

The second, and probably larger issue, is that other things are not considered appreciating assets. The vast majority (I'd guess north of 99%, and that's conservative) of cars depreciate and everyone knows it. Same with appliances and pretty much everything else. Nobody really cared if they got a good deal on a house since they could just turn around and sell it for a profit in a month or a year. They didn't really care if they got a good deal on a loan either, or got an interest only loan, since they could just refinance. Lenders didn't care either: they would just package up the mortgages and sell them.

You had a situation where people were buying the most expensive thing they'll ever buy, which is also something society tells them they need to have to be successful, and they're doing it with the intent of making money. And doing it with a twenty year loan that neither side had any intention of being involved with for twenty years.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Yes, it contributed, but what really accelerated it was banks loaning amounts of money to people one could easily see could never pay it off.

As I mentioned above, neither side was ever really that interested in paying it off. And, most of those could have been paid off, had the market not come crashing down. It was all good if the assumptions were right, but they weren't.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 56):
When I ask for a 500k $ mortgage and he shoves another 500k down my throat (Well, because a swimming pool and a patio are NICE, and the interests are LOW!), do I have a reason to expect a housing crisis in the next years? NO!

Basic skepticism should give you more than enough reason. And nothing can ever be shoved down your throat unless you open your mouth. I've yet to meet the salesman who holds a gun to a customer's head. Seriously, people need to stand up for themselves and understand the business model of who you're dealing with.

Salespeople will tell you what you want to believe, especially when they are not just selling a house, they're selling a lifestyle and a dream. Resist the urge.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 56):
Because... I'm not a financial expert.

No excuse for this. Information is too easy to come by these days so you should always know at least as much as the person doing the selling, whether it's a house, a car, a computer, or anything else. Educate yourself and be the expert because, shockingly, people selling something aren't always truthful.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The real problems got started when people became convinced, by themselves or by others, that they could afford a house or a house they couldn't really afford.

If you are making $30K a year you generally know you can't afford a $300K house.

Then comes along a snarky real estate team with "special financing". No Down. Ultra low interest only for a few years and then inflation will give you a lot of profit. Just Sign Here!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
It takes two to tango.

It took 3 for that tango and it was the players who knew how to play the game that made the fortunes.

The issue TODAY is how we work to improve the situation. Refinancing with the low interest rates of today is a huge Step One. Then move to repayment rates based on a percentage of income. Use the new loan program to run the refinancing.

That may cut out some bank profits. Too bad. We bailed out the banks. Now it's time to take care of student loan so they have a lower negative impact on our economy. This can be a 20 or 30 year problem that can be cleared up very fast. And it can have a positive impact on the economy. Everyone but the banks should like that.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1777 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
Then comes along a snarky real estate team with "special financing". No Down. Ultra low interest only for a few years and then inflation will give you a lot of profit. Just Sign Here!

...and people signed. They should have known better.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
It took 3 for that tango and it was the players who knew how to play the game that made the fortunes.

Some of those same players who knew how to play the game also got left holding the bag when it collapsed. And let's not forget that some of that was real value with real growth. Bubbles do grow on the backs of booms, after all.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
Refinancing with the low interest rates of today is a huge Step One. Then move to repayment rates based on a percentage of income.

If banks are willing to make that deal, they can. If not, then people don't have to take out loans.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
Now it's time to take care of student loan so they have a lower negative impact on our economy. This can be a 20 or 30 year problem that can be cleared up very fast. And it can have a positive impact on the economy.

It's ridiculous to advocate reducing one type of debt so you can load people up with another.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1770 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
...and people signed. They should have known better.

Yes, they *should* have known better. But whom are you going to trust if somebody offers you a 300'000 loan, but then your yearly income is only 30'000? After all, the bank knows how much you're earning, too. Estimating the chance of a default is at the core of the banking profession. They have to protect their own assets by setting the right interest rates.

What you're effectively telling me is that banks are charities that hand out money to anybody who is in need of a home. No questions asked...


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
Then comes along a snarky real estate team with "special financing". No Down. Ultra low interest only for a few years and then inflation will give you a lot of profit. Just Sign Here!

...and people signed. They should have known better.

This is why German civil law distinguishes between a professional business person (Vollkaufmann, somebody who has a degree in business, law or has done an apprenticeship as a merchant) and a layperson. The professional is expected to know exactly what risks he is getting himself into, while there exist certain protections for laypeople.

Jan


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
But whom are you going to trust if somebody offers you a 300'000 loan, but then your yearly income is only 30'000?

Just because someone offers to sell you something doesn't mean you should buy it.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
Estimating the chance of a default is at the core of the banking profession.

It is. But, if they offer a loan they might make money. If they don't offer a loan, they are guaranteed to not make money. But here's the rub: they didn't need to have the loan paid off. Loans got packaged up and sold, so the loan originators weren't getting paid as home buyers sent in checks each month, they got paid when they sold off the mortgage backed securities. The money wasn't in getting the loan paid off, the money was in making the loan.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
They have to protect their own assets by setting the right interest rates.

Even in that case, banks weren't too worried since they weren't dealing with the loan for that long. They didn't need borrowers to not default for the term of the loan, all they needed was for the borrower to not default long enough to sell the loan off.

Borrowers didn't care a whole lot about interest rates either. They were just going to have that rate long enough to refinance and then they'd get a better rate.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 60):
What you're effectively telling me is that banks are charities that hand out money to anybody who is in need of a home. No questions asked...

You're the first person to blame the market crash on banks not being greedy enough, but that's not really accurate. Again, there was the higher risk, higher reward proposition and there's not a ton of risk when you think the underlying asset will only go up in value. Also, as I said before, neither side had any intention of sitting on the loan. Borrowers wanted to refinance and banks made money making the loans, not getting them paid off.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 801 posts, RR: 2
Reply 63, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
This is called critical thinking, something I hope you are picking up at your university!
Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 45):
That being said, these "sticker prices" are a little bit misleading.

Not really, they exist because someone is paying them ...

Snide remark aside, our system is such that only those who "should" be able to afford the sticker price are paying it. The school assumes that if combined parental income is greater than $200,000, then the family should/can afford to pay the full price, or

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
And when you say "some" FA, that means those who only get a small percent of that large bill are lumped into that 62%.

As I said, the average tuition cost for a student on financial aid is $11,000. So while, yes, some get only a small portion of financial aid, that figure shows that it's not like they're giving out little to everyone.


User currently offlinezhiao From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1718 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Fewer than 12% of private college students pay those schools' high sticker prices. Fully 88% of all freshmen at private universities received scholarships to reduce their costs, according to a recent survey by the National Association of College and University Business Officers. Private college students receive, on average, $15,530 in scholarships and federal tax benefits, reducing their average net cost to $26,700, the College Board found.

• Fewer than half of all public university students pay the full sticker price to attend. Federal surveys show at least 52% of all students at public four-year universities receive scholarships or grants. Aid, not counting loans or campus jobs, brought the net tuition paid by the average student at a typical public university to about $2,500, the College Board estimates. That brings the total average net cost of a year on campus (including dorm, books, travel and living expenses) to $11,400
- See more at: http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/pf/c...ost/index.htm#sthash.fykekweR.dpuf

So as I said, most of the debt is comprised of living expenses, not education per say.

Net tuition of $2500 is very reasonable so there should be no complaints.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 65, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science, engineering, business/economics. But students majoring in the liberal arts would get less help.

As unpopular as this is among many of the intellectuals, I think there is merit in the idea. Literature and the arts is all well and good, but I think it's way overemphasized in education in general. I'm terribly sorry, but I have never once used my "five paragraph essay" skills in my work. Nor has having read Kant and Rousseau in any way enriched or changed my life. And most certainly the literature and arts... these things are entertainment. There are things to be learned about history from them, but let us not forget that Shakespeare and Twain wrote their works as entertainment, not to be critically deconstructed by generation upon generation of bored high school and college students.

Encouraging those students going into fields with good economic prospects with less restrictive loans and grants, while asking students going to fields with poorer economic prospects to pay their own way may not be "fair" to the intellectuals, but it seems like sound policy to me.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7874 posts, RR: 52
Reply 66, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):

An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science, engineering, business/economics.

That is a very interesting idea... I like it a lot. Of course I can see it being abused but if we need some kind of field more than another, give better terms for that loan.

The only real concern I see (and it is a very big, realistic one) is how slow, inefficient, and wrong our government can be. What if we need more physicists so they give incentives for those loans... the government doesn't do their math correctly (shocking) and we have too many physicists and many are without a job and the government continues to give better loans to them because they are too slow or don't want to be seen as anti-physics or whatever


And your sentiment on some of the more liberal arts courses, I agree 100%. I don't see my education as "well rounded" from some of the classes I've gotten, I see a lot of it as wasted. Instead of reading Hamlet or another (*puts on flame suit*) dumb book, I much rather would have been learning more about chemistry or physics or math. Don't completely get rid of literature, but give it to the few who care. I think a few people dedicated to the arts is actually good, but the key word is "few"



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 67, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science, engineering, business/economics.

Field has to be a consideration when making these loans. Part of it does probably lie in having some of these guaranteed. It's just beyond me why anyone would lend $50-60k to somebody who will probably end up as a social worker making barely above poverty level wages when they graduate, at best.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
The only real concern I see (and it is a very big, realistic one) is how slow, inefficient, and wrong our government can be. What if we need more physicists so they give incentives for those loans...

It shouldn't be based on need, but rather just dictated by market. Occupations with higher salaries for graduates can get more aid at better terms since they're more able to pay. If you want to study creative writing, good luck finding money. If people need more writers, their pay will rise and people with that degree will be better able to pay off loans so lenders will be more willing to lend.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
And your sentiment on some of the more liberal arts courses, I agree 100%. I don't see my education as "well rounded" from some of the classes I've gotten, I see a lot of it as wasted.

Liberal arts is horseshit, pure and simple. You don't need to know about Virgil to make coffee at Starbucks.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 68, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
Don't completely get rid of literature, but give it to the few who care. I think a few people dedicated to the arts is actually good, but the key word is "few"

I think that it's still important to study to be well-rounded.

But here's what kills me: where I went to college, I was required to take TEN courses in the liberal arts. Liberal arts students were required to take only THREE science courses. Many of them graduated without knowing the difference between a virus and a bacterium. That's actually important knowledge so that you understand WHY the doctor doesn't want to give you an antibiotic for your cold.

Carl Sagan (I think) once said: "We live in a world that is heavily dependent on science and technology in which few people understand science and technology." We really need to fix that.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3983 posts, RR: 28
Reply 69, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1596 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
there is some actual value in terms of quality of living and piece of mind in home ownership.

In the U.S. you cannot own a home, as, whether you have a mortgage or "own" it outright, you need to pay property taxes that are far, far in excess of the profits made by the entire mortgage industry (you remember them, those mean, bad people that were making money out of a housing price bubble). Having an unencumbered title to your property only means you are two paychecks away from being evicted vs one.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science, engineering, business/economics. But students majoring in the liberal arts would get less help.

That would make total sense, so of course it will never be implemented.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 68):
Carl Sagan (I think) once said: "We live in a world that is heavily dependent on science and technology in which few people understand science and technology." We really need to fix that.

True. We also have a society that is heavily dependent on finance and economics, and in which few people understand those. In fact, the amount of economic ignorance among the general populace (as can be seen in multiple examples in this thread) is shockingly high.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 70, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53):
The problem is that the US don´t really have a recognised vocational system with apprenticeships, which offers the not so academically inclined an alternative education after highschool.

We do have specific vocational programs at high schools, we do have high schools (gymnasium) that are entirely dedicated to vocational programs, and we do have the associate's degree (2 year college program) that is quite often given in the vocational arts. What we don't have is that strong link between these programs and industry. Not to say such linkages dont exist at all, but they are quite random. If your institution is in a place where a particular business needs a particular skill you're golden, otherwise you're on your own.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
Part of what led to the meltdown is that the people writing the loans weren't the same people collecting on the loans. Banks were making these loans and then selling them off as securities.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 56):
Nope. The banks are supposed to know the markets as well as watching out for looming housing bubbles and manage the risks accordingly. The blame falls on the one of the two who has the better expertise in finances.

The real problem is indeed that we capitalized the profit and socialized the risk. Indeed banks were all to happy to originate loans and quickly pass them on, which meant they collected their windfall up front. In the middle we had the 'robo-signers' who didn't pay much attention to the papers and it all ended up being rubber stamped into the risk pool.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Your thinking may shift a bit after a few years of renting.

I hope not. Hell, I hope my thinking never shifts because every potential shift can be damn expensive.

What you value will shift with time, count on it.

As you say a home is the biggest purchase many make, but it's also one of the biggest tax shelters available to most people.

In short, you may find it's damn more expensive to rent,

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
No excuse for this. Information is too easy to come by these days so you should always know at least as much as the person doing the selling, whether it's a house, a car, a computer, or anything else.

Shelter is a basic human need, and not everyone who wants/needs shelter is as competent as you'd like them to be.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 63):
As I said, the average tuition cost for a student on financial aid is $11,000. So while, yes, some get only a small portion of financial aid, that figure shows that it's not like they're giving out little to everyone.

Thanks for redirecting my critical thinking a bit!  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
As unpopular as this is among many of the intellectuals, I think there is merit in the idea.

Me too.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 69):
In the U.S. you cannot own a home, as, whether you have a mortgage or "own" it outright, you need to pay property taxes that are far, far in excess of the profits made by the entire mortgage industry (you remember them, those mean, bad people that were making money out of a housing price bubble). Having an unencumbered title to your property only means you are two paychecks away from being evicted vs one.

There's no free lunch. Even if you have that unencumbered title, unless it's an unlit shack with no plumbing, you're going to have a few other bills too. If you really need that free lunch, I suppose you can find some property in an unincorporated county and live like Ted Kacyzinski (sp?). I hope you're good at hunting and raising crops, though.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 71, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
Encouraging those students going into fields with good economic prospects with less restrictive loans and grants, while asking students going to fields with poorer economic prospects to pay their own way may not be "fair" to the intellectuals, but it seems like sound policy to me.

A very close friend of mine has two doctorates in German and American studies each (literature, culture and history from a German and an American university each), she is highly intelligent (maybe the smartest woman I have ever met, I have known her since we were in highschool together, and we re-established contact a few months ago after 25 years), but today she lives with her mother and tries to make the ends meet by doing independent research and writing books. She admits that she should maybe have studied something more practical, but being blind from birth her choices were somewhat limited. I think if she were sighted she probably would have gone into science.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 70):
We do have specific vocational programs at high schools, we do have high schools (gymnasium) that are entirely dedicated to vocational programs, and we do have the associate's degree (2 year college program) that is quite often given in the vocational arts. What we don't have is that strong link between these programs and industry. Not to say such linkages dont exist at all, but they are quite random. If your institution is in a place where a particular business needs a particular skill you're golden, otherwise you're on your own.

You won´t find many schools and companies doing shipbuilding in the mountains of Bavaria. If you want to learn this trade you´ll have to go up north to the coast and get hired as an apprentice by a shipyard. So regional limits still apply, but there is a close connection between the industry (through the chambers of trades, commerce and industry, who actually supervise the apprenticeship standards and carry out the exams) and the state departments of education (education in Germany is a state matter, but there exists a steering committee at federal level to ensure that the standards are the same all over the country). The industry defines what is required and the curricula are matched to these requirements. E.g. I did my apprenticeship with LH Technik, where I did the practical part in their maintenance facilities on live aircraft (of course I was working under supervision by skilled mechanics). The theoretical part was done in a state owned vocational school.

Jan


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 72, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
So regional limits still apply

I was more getting after the fact that most industries in the US don't find ways to use entry level workers that have studied at a vocational high school or have an associates level degree, thus they would not have a program similar to the one you were able to use at LH Technik.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 73, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
So regional limits still apply

I was more getting after the fact that most industries in the US don't find ways to use entry level workers that have studied at a vocational high school or have an associates level degree, thus they would not have a program similar to the one you were able to use at LH Technik.

OK, I missunderstood. Companies here see the apprenticeship programmmes as an investment into their own future and often the former apprentices get hired as fully qualified skilled workers after they have passed their exams.
Of course, a first year apprentice costs money to the company (after all he gets paid a salary of a few hundred Euros a month. The purpose is to make the apprentice realise that he is now in a different environment than at highschool. NOW it matters if he is late for work or calls in sick, the same rules apply as for a regular employee because he gets his boss´s money. So if he calls in sick, he has to get a cert from a doctor.
An apprentice in his last year on the other hand can be used almost like a fully qualifed skilled worker and is much cheaper than one (even though his salary will have increased by then).

To prevent abuse (e.g. the apprentices not being trained, but used like cheap labourers) the apprentices have to write a diary and have it signed by their instructor. The diaries will be checked by the supervisory authority, which also takes the exams (mostly the relevant chamber of industry, commerce or trades).
The exams consist of practical and theoretical elements, e.g I had to do 4 written exams on mathematics/physics, technical drawing, aircraft technology and materials and basic labour law.
Then I had to do 5 tasks to the satisfaction of an examiner on an aircraft, e.g. changing a wheel, servicing a brake accumulator, changing an ignitor plug and replacing a valve and a coalescer bag on an aircon pack of a Boeing 737-200.
Finally I had to make my journeyman´s piece, this means on the final exam day I received a plastic bag full of metal and plastic parts, screws, nuts and rivets and a drawing. Then I had 8 hours time to manufacture the parts listed in the drawing from the raw materials in the bag and to assemble the resulting gadget. For this I had to use all the metalworking skills I learned during the apprenticeship, from flat filing to machine shop work. The whole exam took three days.

Jan


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 74, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Quoting zhiao (Reply 64):
Net tuition of $2500 is very reasonable so there should be no complaints.

If that was the only significant cost from the school I would agree. But let's add in all the Fees and the overpriced text books and that $2,500 explodes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):

An idea has been floated to offer student loans and grants to students going into certain fields of study that are in demand in the workforce. Science, engineering, business/economics. But students majoring in the liberal arts would get less help.

I can see benefits of motivating students to the sciences and engineering. First I believe you need to start in High School, with the better students being encouraged to focus in these fields.

In terms of general studies, other countries have managed to deliver quality liberal arts studies in High Schools, leaving the Universities to focus on selected majors. When my wife went through Physiotherapy School in Australia her school day was focused on medical courses & supporting courses. Basically a 7 hour day of classes 5 days a week for 2 years. An hour for anatomy every weekday (with Saturday morning in the dissecting rooms) for 2 years. Other courses that received an hour a day were physiology, medical conditions. Trivial stuff like that. No room for French, but she had 5 years of French before starting her professional course. BTW, the Physio School was part of the Med School.

She finished in 3 Years and MD's finished in 6 Years. With no money wasted on courses not related to the focus of their education.

Business & Economics are two areas where I'd motivate less. Stanley Marcus (of Neiman Marcus fame) was pretty blunt. He hired Liberal Arts grads, believing that they could teach them the business, but business grads would never catch up on the Liberal Arts side. I'd put them into the General Education Group.

Steve Jobs is another one to consider, continually saying that he was placing Apple at the intersection of Technology & Liberal Arts. When you look at where all the other computer makers are these days that Liberal Arts side made sense. Remember Compaq? NCR? DEC? Wang?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
It's just beyond me why anyone would lend $50-60k to somebody who will probably end up as a social worker making barely above poverty level wages when they graduate, at best.

Some people actually like fields other than engineering or medicine. Plus, if everyone studied Engineering your chances of ever finding a job would diminish significantly.

BTW, we need people to become teachers and we actually need people to become GOOD teachers. You want to put the education burden of pre-university studies on public high schools then you bed teachers who are really good at teaching Calculus, Physics and English. I put English in that group as too many come out of High School with very poor writing and (especially) spelling skills. They need to be able to pick up a pen or pencil and write clearly and accurately with zero spelling errors. Good teachers, unfortunately, cost money and most people these days don't want to pay that price.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
Occupations with higher salaries for graduates can get more aid at better terms since they're more able to pay.

Maybe we take a more intelligent approach and simply tax graduates a certain percentage of their salary. Get them all educated (be it Doctor, nurse, electrician or plumber) and let them repay the costs of their education by paying a small percentage of their income. That way someone. like a doctor or engineer, would get their "free" education (which is more expensive than educating a social worker) and they would repay more from their significantly higher salary.

Reality is that Doctors would have a pretty tough life without all of their support professions: nurses, lab staff, therapists, etc. A doctor's ability to make a lot of money is in large part based on their ability to spend a limited amount of time with the patients, establish what needs to be done, then passing on those tasks to teams of people supporting him or her.

Maybe that means we need to motivate students to be nurses, techs, therapists, etc. The system doesn't work if the Doctor has to operated the MRI and CT Scans themselves - then run down to lab to run all of those blood, urine & fecal tests.

It also doesn't work without the people cleaning surgical instruments after surgery, and simply cleaning the hospital itself. Or delivering food services.

A lot of very well educated (and very well paid) people are totally dependent on those you look down on so easily.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 75, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1497 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The real problems got started when people became convinced, by themselves or by others, that they could afford a house or a house they couldn't really afford.

Because the banks looked the other way on it and had all of those mortgages insured (win-win) for them. However in 2008 it hit the fan because AIG couldn't pay all those claims.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
The point of all this is that the media and society needs to stop telling people that they have to own a home. They don't.

I agree that it should be a long thought out process before deciding to buy a home but it should be a goal.

It is financially not that smart to rent forever especially if a mortgage payment is comparable because eventually you will own the home outright and not have to pay anything.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 51):
People have to go back and see a home for what it is: an asset and a line on the balance sheet.

First of all it's shelter and a primary residence is usually a liability at the end of the day, if you consider property taxes, mortgage payments, utilities and upkeep.

To make home ownership a true asset you should be using it as an investment property and renting it out.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 55):
Yep, too bad we don't do that. From what I can see of the trades, getting in is mostly about who you know.

They need to be encouraged much more, because those jobs cannot be sent overseas and will always be necessary. Furthermore getting any job in today's economy mostly relies on who you know.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 58):
Then comes along a snarky real estate team with "special financing". No Down. Ultra low interest only for a few years and then inflation will give you a lot of profit. Just Sign Here!

...and people signed. They should have known better.

How??

Not everyone understands how lending really works and I doubt you do.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 76, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):
In terms of general studies, other countries have managed to deliver quality liberal arts studies in High Schools, leaving the Universities to focus on selected majors.

This is actually what we do here. If you plan to go through the academic (university / college) lane, you´ll do public highschool until grade 12 / 13 (depending on the state). The last two years are already the equivalent of your junior college. Then you´ll finish it with a series of tough exams covering all aspects from languages over social sciences, hard sciences and maths to liberal arts. If you pass these exams, called the "Abitur", you can enter any university in Germany. There the courses are very much on topic for what you´ll need to get your final degree, e.g. when I studied physics the first semersre topics were mathematics, theoretical physics and experimental physics (Newtonian mechanics) plus a lab class. Next semestre was more mathematics, theoretical and experimental physics (classical and relativistic electrodynamics), a chemistry lab class and an advanced physics lab class. And so on. It was expected that you already had learned at least two foreign languages and had a basic knowledge about history and arts in highschool.

Jan


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 77, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1494 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):
Some people actually like fields other than engineering or medicine. Plus, if everyone studied Engineering your chances of ever finding a job would diminish significantly.

That's fine, but the issue with funding education is that the cost of an education and the value of an education are almost completely divorced. Universities will charge basically the same tuition for a theology or social work student as they will a computer science or math student despite the fact that the latter will make far more money, and thus have far more ability to pay, than the former.

And almost like the housing market, students didn't really bat an eye at this, since 1) an education is something you're supposed to have and 2) people were lining up to give or loan them money for it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):
A lot of very well educated (and very well paid) people are totally dependent on those you look down on so easily.

Well everybody needs help. I just have no interest being the help.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
Because the banks looked the other way on it and had all of those mortgages insured (win-win) for them. However in 2008 it hit the fan because AIG couldn't pay all those claims.

Yeah, somebody should have noticed that the entire market was insured by one company.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
It is financially not that smart to rent forever especially if a mortgage payment is comparable because eventually you will own the home outright and not have to pay anything.

In some cases, but if you can rent and stuff the money you would have spent on a house in a mutual fund that pays more then you are better off renting. It's all about getting the best return on your money, plus real estate is about the least liquidity a person can have in an investment.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
First of all it's shelter and a primary residence is usually a liability at the end of the day, if you consider property taxes, mortgage payments, utilities and upkeep.

People lost sight of exactly this in the mid-2000s. A house was an asset. If you bought one, the value would go up. If you had one, you were leaving money on the table if you weren't borrowing against it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
How??

Ask yourself what happens if the market changes. Know what you're getting into and what you're signing. And when people tell you the that you can't lose money and real estate is a guaranteed investment, it should be obvious that you're potentially walking into a trap. Beware the guy who says there's no risk.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 78, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 74):
When you look at where all the other computer makers are these days that Liberal Arts side made sense. Remember Compaq? NCR? DEC? Wang?

Pretty faulty logic, IMHO. I was at DEC from 1991-2001 and there's no correlation between its failure and a lack of liberal arts education amongst its employees.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
Because the banks looked the other way on it and had all of those mortgages insured (win-win) for them. However in 2008 it hit the fan because AIG couldn't pay all those claims.

Right. There was little downside risk to institutions who originated the loans and kept the fees. The real risk was either holding the mortgages themselves or their derivatives.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
somebody should have noticed that the entire market was insured by one company.

You did notice that financial institutions lobby heavily against funding such "watchers", no?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
In some cases, but if you can rent and stuff the money you would have spent on a house in a mutual fund that pays more then you are better off renting. It's all about getting the best return on your money

Right, which in the case of home ownership often involves home mortgage interest deductions, whereas your mutual fund will involve long and short term capital gains taxes if/when you actually realize the gains.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 79, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1477 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 78):
You did notice that financial institutions lobby heavily against funding such "watchers", no?

It shouldn't be the government, it should be someone in their own offices raising red flags about what could happen if the market changes. Otherwise, they sort of deserve to go out of business when things go south.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 78):
Right, which in the case of home ownership often involves home mortgage interest deductions, whereas your mutual fund will involve long and short term capital gains taxes if/when you actually realize the gains.

All the more reason to switch to something like FairTax which would remove (mostly) that sort of issue. To be fair though, people are taxed on gains from selling real estate too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 80, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
I fear we have only seen the beginning. For-profit "universities" are in their early days. Wait till they really penetrate the right offices in Washington and we'll think today is the good old days. One of the more notorious diploma mills has made its in with my employer and is spamming our internal e-mail accounts.

A lot of the for-profit universities are only in business because of federal financial aid. It's a great business model for them: they get paid upfront by the government, and they don't have to pursue their students for failing to repay their loans. Their likelihood of getting repaid is not at all linked to the educational product they are offering. These for-profit universities have no skin in the game at all, and if you want them to reform, you need to force them to offer financial aid out of their own pocket books, so that they have an incentive to see that the loan gets paid off, and they get their money back.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
The university debt game is not a good investment for most students, nor is it a good investment for the country
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 48):
Massive student, high profits and no oversight on the quality of the product

It really depends. I think part of the problem is in the government acting as the lender, and willing to blindly handout student loans. There are plenty of people I know who taking out federal loans for student debt is indeed a good investment--but these area also people with the type of track record that would have gotten them loans from private institutions as well.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53):
The problem is that the US don´t really have a recognised vocational system with apprenticeships, which offers the not so academically inclined an alternative education after highschool.

That needs to change, I'll agree with you.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
Encouraging those students going into fields with good economic prospects with less restrictive loans and grants, while asking students going to fields with poorer economic prospects to pay their own way may not be "fair" to the intellectuals, but it seems like sound policy to me.

Well, it's the federal government acting like a prudent lender--which it should be.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
Liberal arts is horseshit, pure and simple
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
You don't need to know about Virgil to make coffee at Starbucks.

Liberal Arts is not "horseshit"--but you referring to it as such means that it's probably next to impossible to have an informed debate about it with you, but I am going to try. A liberal arts degree provides you a firm educational foundation. It teaches you how to write, critically read, and critically think--all valuable skills to have. You can be the world's greatest accountant or engineer, but if you are incapable of writing down your ideas in a form that people can understand, then your genius is wasted and effectively worthless.
Now, the job market for pure liberal arts majors is not great, unless you go to an Ivy, a top-25 school, or a top-ranked liberal arts college. If you do not attend either, probably best to double major in a field that will give you a marketable skill for potential employers. Simply referring to liberal arts as "horseshit," and not attempting to qualify or explain the statement, however, reveals a certain level of ignorance concerning the subject.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1468 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 80):
It teaches you how to write, critically read, and critically think--all valuable skills to have.

Doctors, lawyers, and pretty much every other professional can do that too. Liberal arts is kind of an "I'm not stupid" diploma.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 73):

Companies here see the apprenticeship programmmes as an investment into their own future and often the former apprentices get hired as fully qualified skilled workers after they have passed their exams.
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
I agree that it should be a long thought out process before deciding to buy a home but it should be a goal.

I agree. I was lucky in that I was able to get our first home on the GI Bill - but then I worked for 4 years in uniform for that GI Bill. Ny wife and I have only bought 3 homes to live in during 44 years of marriage. The GI Bill house, one when we moved to PER and one when we moved back to TUL. Not a lot of speculation, but it has served us well. Now we are looking at what we want for our "old years". Our current house is a split level and not made for health problems.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
t is financially not that smart to rent forever especially if a mortgage payment is comparable because eventually you will own the home outright and not have to pay anything.

The harsh reality is that part of your rent goes to mortgage interest, property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc. And then profits.

Buying a home that needs some labor is a good way to build equity fairly fast. I just finished rebuilding a bathroom (I should start a self gloss thread on that) and if I can do it anyone can.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 75):
To make home ownership a true asset you should be using it as an investment property and renting it out.

That might be the second house you buy. Unless you live with your parents you'll still be paying someone else forthe space you live in.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
but the issue with funding education is that the cost of an education and the value of an education are almost completely divorced.

There are some upside down fields. Teaching is one. Costs a fortune to become a really good math and/or science teacher and (at least in the US) teaching is considered pretty low on the status (and pay) scale.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 78):
I was at DEC from 1991-2001 and there's no correlation between its failure and a lack of liberal arts education amongst its employees.

I was more focused on one company that had a strong liberal arts bent (Apple) and other companies that are no longer around. My first computer program was "written" on punch cards and ran through a Xerox mini - early 70s that was. Memory was passed around in a plastic cup - little magnetic discs that were wired together.

I also remembered DEC as Churchlands in PER had one and I used it on a project - 12 years before you started with them.

When I look around today at the companies active I see Apple being the leader in new ideas for their market. Apple releases an iPhone and everyone has to follow suit ASAP. That iPhone was one of those products from the intersection of Technology & Liberal Arts. And look at the new iMac to see a company that loves beauty in design.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 83, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
There are some upside down fields. Teaching is one. Costs a fortune to become a really good math and/or science teacher and (at least in the US) teaching is considered pretty low on the status (and pay) scale.

Is that really the case though? It's well known that we need way more teachers, but why do education students choose to go to expensive private universities when the state school that costs half as much has the same program? Teaching isn't one of those fields where you need a big name diploma to get hired.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 84, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
Liberal arts is kind of an "I'm not stupid" diploma.

Some schools include courses like Economics in their Liberal Arts College. Other people who are looking at Law (and maybe politics) will take Political Science or History. The smartest guy I ever worked for was a History major. Before he went to Law School.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
It's well known that we need way more teachers,

Do we? Looks to me that all the cuts in taxes & spending is going to hit teachers (and education in general) pretty hard. Look for cuts in a lot of states

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
but why do education students choose to go to expensive private universities when the state school that costs half as much has the same program?

It might be because they get significant financial aid. Might also be because there are some school systems that will pay very good money for very good teachers. Some graduating teachers might have actually changed majors after a year or two at a very highly rated university.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
Teaching isn't one of those fields where you need a big name diploma to get hired.

But it might be a good start if you plan on moving up. School systems here require continuing ed and a lot of teachers will get their Masters. And some will get their PhD in Education or their specific field.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 85, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 79):
It shouldn't be the government, it should be someone in their own offices raising red flags about what could happen if the market changes.

The private sector was the one that was raking it in knowing that the government and in turn the taxpayers would have no choice but pick up all the pieces.

Quoting us330 (Reply 80):
A lot of the for-profit universities are only in business because of federal financial aid.

Indeed true, probably because the rules were written presuming the players weren't driven by capitalistic greed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
When I look around today at the companies active I see Apple being the leader in new ideas for their market. Apple releases an iPhone and everyone has to follow suit ASAP. That iPhone was one of those products from the intersection of Technology & Liberal Arts. And look at the new iMac to see a company that loves beauty in design.

Right, it works for them, but they are a consumer products company, and DEC never was. Yes, DEC produced and sold PCs for a while, but they entered that market for all the wrong reasons.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 86, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
Doctors, lawyers, and pretty much every other professional can do that too. Liberal arts is kind of an "I'm not stupid" diploma.

You have to have a bachelors before you go to professional school--and that's what a decent chunk of liberal arts majors do.
And if we are on the topic of student debt, talking about lawyers and law schools opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. Yes, a law degree is a professional degree, but the dirty little secret about law school is that it doesn't teach you how to practice law--it's essentially a three year liberal arts law degree. And law grads have horrible employment prospects.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
but why do education students choose to go to expensive private universities when the state school that costs half as much has the same program?

Private universities can sometimes be cheaper than state universities through generous financial aid policies done through the school itself.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 87, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1401 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 86):
You have to have a bachelors before you go to professional school--and that's what a decent chunk of liberal arts majors do.

That's fine then, but maybe you shouldn't go into a ton of debt to do it if you're just going to continue to professional school.

Quoting us330 (Reply 86):
And law grads have horrible employment prospects.

Law school is basically a scam, except for a select few.

Quoting us330 (Reply 86):
Private universities can sometimes be cheaper than state universities through generous financial aid policies done through the school itself.

That's possible. Students should look at the total packages.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 80):
You can be the world's greatest accountant or engineer, but if you are incapable of writing down your ideas in a form that people can understand, then your genius is wasted and effectively worthless.

  

People who study things like liberal arts are usually the sales people of the world and likely have the personality to manage people well. If you can't understand people you can't be successful no matter how smart you are.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
Doctors, lawyers, and pretty much every other professional can do that too. Liberal arts is kind of an "I'm not stupid" diploma.

Your an engineer aren't you??

Engineers have a notorious reputation that they are poor communicators and there is a lot of truth to it. Most if not all engineering companies hire people who have a liberal arts degree or something similar to make sure that reports make sense when being sent out.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 82):
That might be the second house you buy. Unless you live with your parents you'll still be paying someone else forthe space you live in.

When you buy a house you will eventually own it outright and won't have to pay another dime to live there outside up property taxes and upkeep and those you will pay even if you rent.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 77):
In some cases, but if you can rent and stuff the money you would have spent on a house in a mutual fund that pays more then you are better off renting.

Your free to do that but it carries way more risk than home ownership even in today's economy.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 88):
When you buy a house you will eventually own it outright and won't have to pay another dime to live there outside up property taxes and upkeep and those you will pay even if you rent.

I'm a very strong believer in homeownership. If we wouldn't purchased the home we live in we still would have been paying rent - but that rent would have increased every year. At least our mortgage payments stayed constant. Insurance & property taxes went up every year, but at 65 we were able to freeze the property tax payments.

Another benefit is the ability to deduct interest expense and property taxes from your income taxes. For some people this deduction is what allows them to get into a modest house, and have a nice asset when they retire. A far better asset position then if they had only rented all their lives.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 90, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1321 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 88):
People who study things like liberal arts are usually the sales people of the world and likely have the personality to manage people well. If you can't understand people you can't be successful no matter how smart you are.

Add to that another important thing... liberal arts students have more homework, and they have a greater choice in their lectures. They have to design their own weekly timetables, while I as a biology student everything was in place. Almost no lecture overlapped with another. Next to no homework (except studying for exams and the lab reports in the 3rd year).

People who get a BA or MA in liberal arts have learnt how to manage time and make choices. They are flexible people who have success in professions for which they haven't studied (for example studied history and psychology and now works for a newspaper or a publisher).

I just have to say that as a biologist.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 91, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 90):
People who get a BA or MA in liberal arts have learnt how to manage time and make choices. They are flexible people who have success in professions for which they haven't studied (for example studied history and psychology and now works for a newspaper or a publisher).

You can also analogize research and writing papers to project management. Much of the work is independent--you have to come up with your own ideas, have to do your own research, have to use your own judgment to determine what's relevant and what's not, and you have to tailor your "project" or "paper" to a specific audience--your professor.

If you are working in areas where there's a lot of client interaction, it can also serve as a basis for shared interests and developing a strong relationship--that "something extra" that seals the deal.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 92, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1306 times:

Quoting us330 (Reply 91):

Scientific collaboration in science is much tighter, at least in my experience. You have to allocate lab space, you have to reserve time to use the shared confocal microscope, and storage space for the samples and cultures is not unlimited. But you still have an environment that allows you less choice and self-determination.

And it happens more often in liberal arts that you can tailor your own research to your professor. For example, in historical and linguistic research, your audience is limited by the language or region you're working on, while in molecular biology, you've to keep track on what the Japanese and the Americans are doing at the moment.


I think one needs both, science and liberal arts. And the tuition fees should be the same for both. Public-private partnerships between companies and universities are a good way to put students in a position where they can do something for the economy.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 93, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1303 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 88):
Most if not all engineering companies hire people who have a liberal arts degree or something similar to make sure that reports make sense when being sent out.

Bagels don't order themselves.

Quoting us330 (Reply 91):
You can also analogize research and writing papers to project management. Much of the work is independent--you have to come up with your own ideas, have to do your own research, have to use your own judgment to determine what's relevant and what's not, and you have to tailor your "project" or "paper" to a specific audience--your professor.

Engineering students do all of that too, or at least I did and everyone else should too. Some of the things I read or checked from other people were things I would have been embarrassed to turn in, but I suspect that's hardly limited to STEM people.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 92):
And the tuition fees should be the same for both.

That's part of the problem: students will pay a ton of money for a degree that won't earn them enough to pay it off when they graduate.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 94, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 93):
Bagels don't order themselves.

I can remember for years Dad & his assistant kept it a secret that the assistant wasn't an engineer. Everyone thought he was because everyone thought the job required an engineer's orientation. (This was in the oil industry, well known for demanding engineers)

Actually the guy was an accountant by education (not a CPA) but he was a very bright guy, understood the business very well, and both of those guys were great friends for decades. When Dad died Nick rode in the Family Car with us.

BTW, when dealing in natural gas contracts back in the 50s and 60s there was a greater need to understand the mountain of legal issues, especially as they related to the FPC, than a lot of what was taught in engineering schools at the time.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 95, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1285 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 89):
Another benefit is the ability to deduct interest expense and property taxes from your income taxes. For some people this deduction is what allows them to get into a modest house, and have a nice asset when they retire. A far better asset position then if they had only rented all their lives.

The only issue I have with the mortgage interest which deduction which we don't have in Canada is that it (to some I reckon) is a deterrent to actually paying off that mortgage. They will just pay the interest for the deduction and its the equivalent to paying the minimum off a credit card.

The banks like it because they make more in interest but as someone who wants to have debt for as little amount of time as possible that loophole would be a nice convenience while I had a mortgage.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2687 posts, RR: 53
Reply 96, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1224 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 88):
Engineers have a notorious reputation that they are poor communicators and there is a lot of truth to it. Most if not all engineering companies hire people who have a liberal arts degree or something similar to make sure that reports make sense when being sent out.

A lot of the content engineers discuss and communicate with others is of a highly technical nature. How much of this would be understood by a liberal arts graduate?

If the content of the communication in question revolved around public relations, human resources, management or sales, a liberal arts graduate may be able to do a great job, but these areas often have very little to do with engineers.

Quoting us330 (Reply 91):
You can also analogize research and writing papers to project management. Much of the work is independent--you have to come up with your own ideas, have to do your own research, have to use your own judgment to determine what's relevant and what's not, and you have to tailor your "project" or "paper" to a specific audience--your professor.

This is exactly what I am doing as an engineering research student in the area of fluid dynamics. All the papers I am reading are written by research engineers or engineering academics / students, and they have all effectively communicated highly complex and technical ideas which are no doubt, the result of much self-directed effort.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 97, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1215 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 93):
That's part of the problem: students will pay a ton of money for a degree that won't earn them enough to pay it off when they graduate.

I don't think so. The market forces are already playing. Otherwise all the liberal arts students would earn as much as engineers, mathematicians or biologists after receiving their BSc/BA or MSc/MA.

Setting the tuition fees equal, no matter what you want to study, is the right thing to do.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 98, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 97):
I don't think so. The market forces are already playing.

But they're only working on one half of the equation. A computer science degree is worth more than a creative writing degree but the cost is the same: one is a demonstrably better value than the other.

The other part of the issue is that there's so much student aid out there that paying a lot for a degree of low monetary value is not a barrier to entry but only a millstone on the neck of graduates.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2366 posts, RR: 13
Reply 99, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1205 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
But they're only working on one half of the equation.

And this is just.

About 80% of U.S. students attend public colleges and universities. Putting a different price tag on a engineering course vs. a history course would be a governmental attempt at regulating the job market.

If one wanted to help the enterprises find employees, the colleges should open the floodgates and offer engineering degrees for the price of a hamburger with french fries. Then, the companies can pick the best and brightest people from a huge pool - and it's the students that have to care for a job. They have to compete against others. With a limited pool of well-educated young people, it's the companies that have to compete for employees.

Either way, the tuition fee is carrying a message to the student. Either "you're bearing the true costs of being taught medicine", or "we think all sciences are should be treated equal, and choose your field wisely - you've got to look for a job in three or four years' time".


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 100, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
Putting a different price tag on a engineering course vs. a history course would be a governmental attempt at regulating the job market.

You wouldn't put a different price tag on the degree to regulate the market, it would be a result of a less regulated market. If loans weren't as easy to get, especially for lower paying degrees, students will gravitate away from those until the costs get to a level they can handle, which would be more in line with what that sort of degree would pay.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 101, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1159 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
Putting a different price tag on a engineering course vs. a history course would be a governmental attempt at regulating the job market.

That's one possible way of looking at it. Another is an attempt to wisely utilize limited public resources (in the case of publicly owned and subsidized institutions).

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
If one wanted to help the enterprises find employees, the colleges should open the floodgates and offer engineering degrees for the price of a hamburger with french fries. Then, the companies can pick the best and brightest people from a huge pool - and it's the students that have to care for a job. They have to compete against others. With a limited pool of well-educated young people, it's the companies that have to compete for employees.

About the least efficient possible way of doing it!

What we do see many public institutions do is create more openings in programs that are more likely to produce successful careers.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
choose your field wisely - you've got to look for a job in three or four years' time

That's what we've been doing, and as above, we have college grads with tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and no way to pay it off.

It's also the core issue: we're counting on the "wisdom" of eighteen year olds to "choose wisely" and/or the ability of parents to steer their children wisely, and it's just not working. The outcomes are unsatisfactory for both the parents, the students, and definitely the taxpayers.

I have a relative who liked modern art in high school. His parents didn't have the experience of college themselves so they didn't have that much knowledge about the process and no personal experience to fall back on. Ultimately the kid decided he wanted to go to an expensive private art school. The parents were glad that the kid was doing "something" and didn't want to question the kid's decision lest the kid just decide to do "nothing". They also didn't want to be blamed later in life for not helping the kid get "educated". They did the financial aid form and the bill was split between the parents, loans the kid took, and the institution's grants. The parents struggle for four years to keep up with their part of the bill. They give very spare dollar to the school and burn into their retirement savings just to scrape by. The kid has an enjoyable four years in school but absolutely no job prospects after school. It turns out the kid loves creating art, but hates to show it to anyone! So much for a career as an artist. He goes on to take a series of entry level jobs and never pays back the loans, and this never has access to credit nor banking, and so is living a "hand to mouth" life.

Ideally the parents would have nurtured the kid's interest in art, but also made sure the kid knew that there were a lot of other artists out there and it'd be difficult to make a career out of it, so he should think of it as a side avocation and try to nurture some more desirable skills to become the basis of a career. It turns out the kid worked summers at a local factory and by his fourth summer he was the supervisor of the second shift they ran during the summer, so he had aptitude if/when it was channeled. If the kid insisted on art, he should have been steered to a more fiscally responsible choice to work on his skills and academic requirements, and told he should save his money for grad school. Unfortunately the parents just didn't have personal experience or a strong guidance counselor to fall back on.

There's many parallels to the health care problem. We have a finite resource where there's more demand than supply, and where it's darned difficult to prioritize access to that resource. We also have the case where people are allowed to readily consume that resource by the tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars without knowing if they can ultimately pay for it, and when they don't, the "system" is left picking up the tab. In both cases there's a lot of emotion around the issue: relatives/friends want to see a healthy patient, parents want to have satisfied students, etc but ultimately there is amazing amounts of waste and a lot of disappointed people.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3359 posts, RR: 9
Reply 102, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1125 times:

Quoting jetmech (Reply 96):
A lot of the content engineers discuss and communicate with others is of a highly technical nature. How much of this would be understood by a liberal arts graduate?

If the content of the communication in question revolved around public relations, human resources, management or sales, a liberal arts graduate may be able to do a great job, but these areas often have very little to do with engineers.

A liberal arts graduate can help to get a lot of the technical terms understood by someone with no knowledge of the field.

This has to be done when engineering plans and reports for things like infrastructure all the way up to an NTSB report. It is expected that this information in simplified as best as it can be so in can be understood by people with no background. They complement each other in this regard and most engineering firms have people who aren't engineers who look over the reports to ensure it makes sense as well as the licensed engineers to ensure there are no errors.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1102 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 73):
OK, I missunderstood. Companies here see the apprenticeship programmmes as an investment into their own future and often the former apprentices get hired as fully qualified skilled workers after they have passed their exams.

In the US, many companies in their cost cutting have deemed training programs to be unnecessary. They only want to hire people who will either pay for their own training or already fully capable / qualified.

The WSJ did an article about this issue and how US employers are exacerbating unemployment due to their unwillingness to invest in people.

All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

To see the WSJ article I mentioned above, Google for Why Companies Aren't Getting the Employees They Need.


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8220 posts, RR: 8
Reply 105, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1078 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 98):
A computer science degree is worth more than a creative writing degree but the cost is the same: one is a demonstrably better value than the other.

For some employers. Not all companies need engineers, but all companies ned accountants and lawyers (even if via outside services).

A walk around Barnes & Noble shows that there are a lot of writers who are making more than your average engineering graduate.

And, for many companies, engineering services are like outside accounting services - needed from time to time, but not on a full time basis.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 99):
Either "you're bearing the true costs of being taught medicine",

No one gets through university and/or grad school without help from others. Taxpayers who have funded the growth of public schools over the decades as well as ongoing funding, grads making contributions to endowments - many on a yearly basis - and federal funds for various projects that help support operations. And, of course, the Federal Funds that go for student loans, or guaranteeing student loans.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
If loans weren't as easy to get, especially for lower paying degrees, students will gravitate away from those until the costs get to a level they can handle, which would be more in line with what that sort of degree would pay.

Take away the lower paying degrees (especially teachers) and eventually you end up with a shortage of teachers and a glut of engineers. Would be wild if teachers then get higher starting jobs than engineers.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 106, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1033 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 105):
And, for many companies, engineering services are like outside accounting services - needed from time to time, but not on a full time basis.

Actually the founder of the German electrical company AEG, Emil Rathenau, said back in the 1920s: "One doesn´t become an enginer, one keeps engineers".

Jan

[Edited 2013-03-06 11:33:58]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 107, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 921 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 105):
A walk around Barnes & Noble shows that there are a lot of writers who are making more than your average engineering graduate.

I'd bet that for each creative writing graduate who has a book on the shelf at Barnes and Noble, there are probably twenty working the registers.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 105):
Would be wild if teachers then get higher starting jobs than engineers.

And then that's what would happen and you'd see more people studying teaching. No problems there.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 108, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 894 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 106):
Actually the founder of the German electrical company AEG, Emil Rathenau, said back in the 1920s: "One doesn´t become an enginer, one keeps engineers".

IMHO, one of the things that holds Europe back is that many of the elites look down at engineers instead of being thankful that they have them.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 109, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 892 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 108):
IMHO, one of the things that holds Europe back is that many of the elites look down at engineers instead of being thankful that they have them.

Remember that the European definition of an engineer is often different. In the US engineers generally work in offices or labs designing things. In Europe the term also covers a lot of what Americans would describe as "technicians" or "mechanics."



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
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