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Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?  
User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1835 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4093 times:
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The question is self evident.

When we have to register our cars, houses, boats, planes and other objects, why are Second Amendment Advocates pitching such a huge fit about registering firearms?

The reason not to object would seem to be a no brainer, it allows law enforcement to be aware of what guns any particular individual owns so that when they respond to that Domestic Violence call in the middle of the night the officer will know what to expect and can respond accordingly.

So, tell me, why object? What's the big deal about having to inform the police how many guns you own, what type weapons you own and their status: Secured, unsecured, operative, inoperative.


Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
245 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation and that they can only defend themselves from tyranny if they have their own private arsenals. It is neither a rational line of thought nor supported by facts, but nevertheless it exists.

[Edited 2013-03-06 02:05:09]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1365 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):

While this is true, I think there's a little more to it than that...

Simply put, Americans don't like being told what to do. Even when the benefits and indeed (in this case) the necessity are present. We have a tendency to conflate ideals of freedom with the complete disposal of responsibility. This isn't the first time in our history that we've resisted doing the sensible or right thing on the basis of "well, we've never had to do this before, and I don't have a problem, so why should I comply with this..." Hell, one time we had to fight a whole damned war, within our own borders no less, just to wean some of people off the habit of owning other people. The issue is different, but the logic is the same. No matter obviously beneficial something is, it's always automatically bad if it's the gov't doing the fixing.

I think eventually this will pass, along with successively more restrictive measures as time goes by. But in the meantime, the rest of us sure will hear about it and have to endure...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6105 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4043 times:
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Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
The reason not to object would seem to be a no brainer, it allows law enforcement to be aware of what guns any particular individual owns so that when they respond to that Domestic Violence call in the middle of the night the officer will know what to expect and can respond accordingly

If a law enforcement officers sees that nobody owns a gun at a residence and then proceeds to the call as if there will be no guns he/she is acting very stupidly. Who knows who is actually there and what they have, legal or not. A police officer comes on to a scene like that expecting the worst.

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation and that they can only defend themselves from tyranny if they have their own private arsenals.

The only reason the government needs to know if you have something is to tax it or take it. I tend to think they would tax guns. They tax the hell out of everything to begin with. My cars are registered with the government, they are taxed, my home is registered with the government, it is taxed. Boats, campers, airplanes, snow mobiles, etc, are registered by the government and are private property, they are all taxed. I would see no reason why the government wouldn't tax guns too.

The only problem is that people assume that everyone will register their guns. They all will not, I will not (at least all of them). Some of my guns go back in my family far enough there are, and never was, and record of purchase. How will government insure compliance? Will they go to every home and business in the USA and search it to be sure there is no gun? The civil right and civil liberties groups will have a fit. Those are on the far left and the far right tend to love their freedom and will not let government search and seize without a warrant.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14027 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

To put into perspective:

Germany has recently completed a federal register of privately held guns (before it was a state matter, with no federal coordination). There are a bit more than 5 million legally registered guns in private hands in Germany (I don´t remember the exact figure), but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

Jan


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.

I do believe that no one can really justify the owning of an assault rifle for personal use, I also beleive the surrendering of constitutional rights can be equally as dangerous.


User currently offlineluv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4027 times:
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IMHO no solution is going to be perfect, though that doesn't mean we stop trying. And that right there is what I see as going to happen. The NRA will keep knocking down any change in hopes the public gives up the fight.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4004 times:
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Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
I also beleive the surrendering of constitutional rights can be equally as dangerous

Well.. How do you feel about Voter Registration?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.

Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):

I posted a fictional dialogue in another thread a while back.

LEO: Mr. Fr8mech? Good day.
Fr8mech: Good day.
LEO: Mr. Fr8mech, last night a crime was committed in downtown Louisville (18 miles away) and a .40 caliber bullet was recovered. According to registration data, you have a .40 caliber Springfield XD40 sub-compact registered in your name. Is this correct?
Fr8mech: Yes.
LEO: Please account for your firearm and your whereabouts during yesterday during the time the crime was committed. Also, we will need to impound your firearm in order to perform ballistics testing.

I was assured that it would never happen that way.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
The only reason the government needs to know if you have something is to tax it or take it.

Yup.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.

Or, it will lead to a police state where innocent people are presumed guilty simply because they own a gun.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 7):
Well.. How do you feel about Voter Registration?

And exactly how does that play into this? We have voter registration in order to assure ourselves that those folks voting are eligible to vote. You and I both know that I don't think the requirements go far enough, but that's besides the point.

Firearms registration is not a way to cull the ineligible from owning a gun...we already have background checks for that (and, if you've been paying attention, I'm for universal background check), registration is a way for the the authorities to know who has a gun, legally. I don't want the government to know that. The government has failed to provide a compelling reason for having that information.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7417 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3963 times:

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
I posted a fictional dialogue in another thread a while back.

Wow you guys both wearing tinfoil hats, do you think this ever happens in other countries where guns are registered? good grief, register your guns it's pretty simple, you register yours cars, you register where you live, what's the big deal registering your guns, most other countries manage it without any problems.


User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

1) Confiscation
2) Taxation
3) Remember the fiasco where a Northeastern newspaper got ahold of a list of gun owners, then published it? Expect that, but a much larger scale. Registration should not be public information.


I'll also leave this here, have a laugh:



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinedl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11447 posts, RR: 75
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3952 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation

It's not brainwashing, and by calling it such and accusing people who resist greater governemnt interference in their lives of paranoia and other accusations causes people to start arguing about the wrong things. It makes people defensive and angry, which does little to advance debates.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
There are a bit more than 5 million legally registered guns in private hands in Germany (I don´t remember the exact figure), but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

another point against the federal registration of firerams. The majority of crimes ares committed using illegally owned firearms. There are already an estimated 275 million firearms in private hands in the US. How are you reliably going to account and register all of those firearms? How much will be spent in the pointless endeavour? Hundreds of millions of firearms will remain unregistered and millions of criminals created, while doing little to slow criminals from committing crimes.

Registration is yet another high hope by people who believe that more laws and regulations will solve issues that are already regulated but not being addressed by the LEO authorities involved.



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3942 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Or, it will lead to a police state where innocent people are presumed guilty simply because they own a gun.

Or because they are brown in Arizona... (SB170). Is it not the same issue?

Registering people for one right is just as good registering people for another,.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
And exactly how does that play into this? We have voter registration in order to assure ourselves that those folks voting are eligible to vote. You and I both know that I don't think the requirements go far enough, but that's besides the point.

It has everything to do with it! Both are constitutional rights, lets make sure that everyone is nice and papered up BEFORE they get to exercise them

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 11):
1) Confiscation
2) Taxation
3) Remember the fiasco where a Northeastern newspaper got ahold of a list of gun owners, then published it? Expect that, but a much larger scale. Registration should not be public information.

Is that applicable to Voter Registration too? Will voter registration lead to vote taxation?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
Wow you guys both wearing tinfoil hats,

What other reason would exist for a registration database, then? If I were a police commander and I had this tool at my disposal, the first question I would ask is "who has a firearm in that caliber in this area"?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
do you think this ever happens in other countries where guns are registered?

Do you know that it doesn't? Are you privy to the police investigations of every shooting?

Again, we are told that if we register our guns, gun violence will go down. I can't understand how it could go down if the police don't use the tool to find the gun used in the crime.

The only other possible explanation for a registration database is so that the government knows who has guns so that they may tax them or take them.

And, as I've said before in other, non-gun, threads...the power to tax is the power to destroy.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3936 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Is that applicable to Voter Registration too? Will voter registration lead to vote taxation?

Why on earth are you so gun-ho (see what I did there??) about your voter registration comparison?   Give me a constitutional amendment saying my guns wont be taxed, and maybe myself and others would open up to the idea of registration. Poll taxes are illegal, as I am sure you know.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7417 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
There are already an estimated 275 million firearms in private hands in the US. How are you reliably going to account and register all of those firearms?

There are a similar number of motor vehicles in the US, how do they manage to register all of those, isn't it also illegial to drive an unregistered motorvehicle, don't you also have to register when you buy sell or trade your motorvehicle. If it can be done with cars there is no reason why it can't be done with guns.

It's not that difficult, if people don't register and get caught they pay a fine, simple, when a gun is sold it's registered, just like with a car, you can manage it with motor vehicles so you can manage it with guns, those that think it's difficult are just being pig headed.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3928 times:
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Quoting Stabilator (Reply 15):
Why on earth are you so gun-ho (see what I did there??

Nicely Done!! - Touche..

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 15):
about your voter registration comparison?

But seriously , its true. Generally speaking the anti-immigration, pro+voter registration folks that scream and shout on how everyone should have their paper and how everyone who votes should be registered and present ID; get their panties in a bunch when the same is applied to guns. I just don't get it.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3924 times:

The thing I don't understand is: The same people who do not want guns to be registered because that *MIGHT* (key word) be used for taxing or confiscating or rounding people up in the night, those are the same people who said about government data mining and Patriot Act "Well, if you are not doing anything wrong, the government in your e-mail is a good thing!"

They are okay with the government reading everyone's e-mails and listening to everyone's phone calls but how dare they try to find out who owns what guns!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
Again, we are told that if we register our guns, gun violence will go down. I can't understand how it could go down if the police don't use the tool to find the gun used in the crime.

Spot on, not to mention, if registration becomes mandatory, most deviants wont willingly walk in to the local police station and be alll "Here man, this gun is in my possession illegally".



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6105 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3920 times:
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Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
The NRA will keep knocking down any change in hopes the public gives up the fight

People like me will continue to send them money to keep on fighting

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.

I doubt the street thugs in places like Detroit, with illegally imported or stolen guns, will be lining up to have their guns registered.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 11):
I'll also leave this here, have a laugh:

Typical gun grabber, she doesn't even know how to handle a gun. You always treat a firearm like it is loaded.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

I have seen a couple of them. I was offered a couple of pistols in Germany back in 2011. I turned the guy down because I already owned one of them and getting them out of the country would have been too big of pain in the butt. Back in 2008 I saw a nice collection of unregistered firearms in the UK. Some of you might say "you should have turned those guys in because they were breaking the law". I think their governments were suppressing their God given right to own firearms free of government obstruction. I'm no snitch and ratting out law breakers is a good way to get hurt.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 17):

Because registering for voting is guaranteed not to be taxed, you nor any other person can guarantee the same without some sort of amendment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):

FWIW, I think the Patriot Act is a load of crap  



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3909 times:
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Quoting Stabilator (Reply 21):
Because registering for voting is guaranteed not to be taxed, you nor any other person can guarantee the same without some sort of amendment.

Case for free IDs used for voting then?  

But in all seriousness, the link between registration and taxation is all tin foil talk; brought up by others - not me

[Edited 2013-03-06 08:00:39]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
Case for free IDs used for voting then?

Voted "No" for the Voter ID amendment here in Minnesota  



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
the link between registration and taxation is all tin foil talk

Agree to disagree   We all have our concerns.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
25 Post contains links surfpunk : Problem with your hypothesis is, confiscation fears are not unfounded. Take California, for example: CA Wants to Take Registered Guns
26 Revelation : Gun enthusiasts paranoid? Say it isn't so! Indeed, but by insisting on perfection the NRA can impede the process, so that's what they do. They also l
27 MD11Engineer : Most of these guns are staying simply hidden somewhere by the owner, who wants to keep them "just in case", but are never used. I knew a guy who boug
28 L-188 : Love each other as i have loved you.......Heffner Right?
29 RomeoBravo : That's a silly scare story. Just because police have more information doesn't mean they'll reverse the basic tenets of justice. And if they do it'll
30 fr8mech : Then why register guns? If the criminals aren't going to register their guns (and we know they won't), why should the law-abiding folks have to regis
31 bhill : Because it is the "Well Regulated" part of the Amendment that is always glossed over. Insurance should be required as well...like your car, boat, moto
32 mt99 : Wait - Guns are already Taxed no? If i buy a gun do i pay tax on it? Taxes on bullets? How do you know this? Is there any place in the world that has
33 fr8mech : There are proposals out there to tax gun annually as additional property to pay for gun violence. It is a lie because there are over 250,000,000 fire
34 mt99 : NO need to tax for annual gun ownership. Just tax bullets.. Its the same thing for all practical purposes...
35 Mir : You won't, at least not right away. But over time (a long time) the proportion of registered guns will increase. But that process doesn't start until
36 JAGflyer : Americans have a very convaluted sense of privacy. To them it seems that asking or knowing what brand of toothpaste they use is considered an invasion
37 Maverick623 : Tell that to the people of California, who had one of their Reps introduce a bill that would require all people with certain registered weapons to tu
38 fr8mech : I already pay a sales tax on my ammunition. Any other tax would be considered an excise tax. Now, if that tax became so burdensome as to prevent the
39 surfpunk : Yes. Which I linked in reply 25.
40 fr8mech : You can do the same thing with universal background checks and a court order. I mean, that's the goal isn't it? Finding the last legal owner of the g
41 surfpunk : Problem is, the "militia" clause is the prefatory, not operative clause of the Second Amendment. The Supreme Court affirmed this as such in the Helle
42 soon7x7 : That is a rhetorical question...In this case apples and oranges...both are fruit. I would agree with your point and I understand the logic of it howe
43 mt99 : Should be fine.. you should be asked for proof of citizenship too. If you have a problem on why ask Jan Brewer in AZ. if you cant as Sheriiff Joe Arp
44 kachum : And following this logic, Belarus fingerprinted all their male adult population. I take it you would be gladly fingerprinted by Harper's government?
45 kiwirob : Why do you register your motorvehicle, for what reason, surlely is it any different from some one doing a hit and run, whitneses say it was a red car
46 Post contains links fr8mech : So, you're fine giving up your Fourth Amendment rights because "you have nothing to hide"? Hey, nice try at deflection, by the way. 1.oppressively he
47 mt99 : Absolutely - True Patriots like Jan Brewer, Joe Arpaio and several others on this forum think its a great idea. Don't you? I just join them on their
48 fr8mech : That would be for a court to decide, wouldn't it? I could probably afford, say a 20 or 30% tax without too much of a problem. But, what about a co-ed
49 mt99 : Right - so should guns be exempt any tax - including sales tax?
50 fr8mech : Please point to the post where I said that guns and/or ammunition should be exempt from sales tax. You'll note that I don't even say they should be e
51 JJJ : I believe most countries with a national ID system collect fingerprints as part of the process, so everyone's prints are collected, male, female, inf
52 JAGflyer : My fingerprints are on file as I hold an airport restricted clearance pass. To go airside for my job I must scan my RFID pass and then place my finge
53 Mir : If the dealers are keeping their records properly, I suppose you could. If they're not keeping their records properly (and we can safely assume that
54 fr8mech : I've already suggested that the record keeping laws must be improved in order for a universal background check system to work correctly. I have no pr
55 Revelation : You should re-read #6: You can continue to argue that any gun law must cover each and every circumstance to perfection, but the rest of us see right
56 YVRLTN : I have decided I dont really care any more if Americans are OK with killing each other, but this is the bit I really dont get In a nation that is incr
57 kiwirob : Then why register your car, it could be stolen by criminals and used in a crime, so by your rules why should law abiding folks have to register their
58 seb146 : Yeah... I never liked it either. Another thing: When GWB was president, we loved this country so much. With all the shootings and domestic terrorism
59 Maverick623 : The primary purpose of vehicle registration is taxes and emission control. Also, there is no constitutional right to operate a motor vehicle, other t
60 Revelation : Those purposes could be fulfilled without putting a large plate on each vehicle with large numbers and specialized lighting to make sure they are rea
61 casinterest : I find it hypocritcial and sad that the majority of those against Gun registration are the same group that demand Voter ID laws. I guess we should sto
62 starbuk7 : So the state can get revenue from you re-registering it every year. Has nothing to do with tracking who owns it, its where can we get money from ever
63 Post contains links fr8mech : Your understanding is incorrect. When I purchase a firearm from an FFL, the form includes make/model & serial number of the firearm. Under curren
64 Smittyone : Absolutely, and when nobody saw anything wrong with states making people put a big marker plate on it, now you have this situation where government a
65 ATCtower : By that logic since I have to show an ID to buy a gun how about we require people to show an ID to vote?
66 GSPflyer : Others have pretty much said it. While law-abiding gun owners, like myself, will probably register their guns, those who intend to (or have) used thei
67 Smittyone : And then people will insist that this registry information be published.
68 CalebWilliams : Thank you! Yes and a few reps introduced bills making it illegal for a federal officer to confiscate a gun. Both sides are out there silly laws. Wher
69 boeing717200 : You shouldn't have to register a car more than once per purchase. You should be able to buy it, have a visible tag on it and be done. If you sell it,
70 Mudboy : Because the NRA wants you to live in fear that any step by the US Government to hold people accountable, is the first step in stripping your 2nd Amend
71 Post contains images Maverick623 : Nice deflection. Doesn't change the fact that the reason people believe it, is because it's happened. Technically, they are. The 2nd Amendment guaran
72 Post contains links Smittyone : What I'm talking about has already happened Caleb! http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/07/ny...-a-target.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 It does get old, BUT
73 CalebWilliams : Yes, this was by a private company, not the government (I understand the information was public record). While I don't necessarily agree with what th
74 Mudboy : They have not, I am just stating some of those with extremist views and paranoia, would scare me before the US Gov. would, example being James and Te
75 surfpunk : Perhaps you could, but anyone with an axe to grind against gun owners can file the appropriate FOIA requests and get information on CCW permit holder
76 soon7x7 : More gun legislation will only help create a more active black market therefore defeating its own purpose. It makes as much sense as the TSA allowing
77 cmf : From where do you get these crazy ideas? Why on earth would you want illegal sales in the legal market? A more active black market is a sign of succe
78 Ken777 : Another reason might be to identify guns used in a shooting. I tend to believe that law enforcement would like to have a database with ballistics dat
79 starbuk7 : Wow, all of you that are vehemently against anyone owning a gun are grasping and straws along with all the other 'doom and gloom' scenarios that you a
80 FlyDeltaJets : The government will not be able to ensure 100% compliance with a gun registration law. There is no law on the books that has a 100% compliance rate. I
81 TWA772LR : Here's my view on how gun control should be. 1. Ban assault weapons, or make people who want to own them get permits. Yes you want to defend yourself
82 fr8mech : Do you need a permit to vote? Exercise your individual right to free speech? How about a permit to exercise your religion? I disagree. I have a permi
83 FlyDeltaJets : No but you do have to register, so still more required to vote than to own a firearm in many places.
84 windy95 : "Shall not be infringed"....what I own or buy is none of the governments business.
85 fr8mech : Correct, you register to ensure you are eligible to vote and to ensure you are voting in the right place. We have background checks to ensure you are
86 Post contains images TWA772LR : You need to register to vote so it's pretty much the same thing. If you are going to protest somewhere, you have to get it approved. No I do not.
87 Braniff747SP : Then we should abolish all taxes, registrations, licenses, etc... Including for guns. Sounds like a great idea.
88 GSPflyer : I am trying to figure out what banning 'assault" weapons will do, or what actually constitutes an 'assault' weapon. In 2011, 323 out of 12,664 murder
89 fr8mech : Again, you register to vote in order to prove eligibility and in order to ensure you are voting in the correct precinct. We have background checks in
90 Post contains images Maverick623 : And exactly what benefit would that entail? A convicted felon (or other disqualified person) in possession of a firearm is already a felony. And just
91 FlyDeltaJets : Why do you believe that you would be denied registration of a firearm of you meet the appropriate requirements? Registration will only bolster accoun
92 FlyDeltaJets : Background checks do nothing if a person legally buys the gun for someone that cannot legally do so on their own. This type of problem is something t
93 fr8mech : Registration does no such thing. Yeah, registration may present a hurdle to the guy "on the fence", but it's not going to stop "straw sales", at best
94 Post contains images Darksnowynight : "Well - regulated"
95 Post contains images fr8mech : Read Heller.
96 Mir : The conservative arm of the Supreme Court disagrees with you. -Mir
97 fr8mech : I'd have to read it again, but I think the Supreme Court says the states have the right to place some restrictions on the Second Amendment. I'm not s
98 Mir : The Court said that the Second Amendment guarantees a right to keep and bear firearms for purposes unconnected to a militia, but that said right is n
99 fr8mech : I suspect that the potential uses of a registration database may make it unconstitutional. It's something that the Court would have to look pretty ha
100 Maverick623 : I don't see that particular argument being valid. It sounds like the same arguments that were used to justify poll taxes, which has been explicitly s
101 Mir : Then you limit the use of the database so that it is constitutional (as I've suggested - solely to match crime guns to owners and criminals to their
102 starbuk7 : I just love how because someone does not want someone else to have something (in this case guns) since they cannot stop you from having a gun (since
103 fr8mech : Until the next Congress or the one after that or even the one after that is seated and decides that it's ok to take away a certain class of weapons.
104 cmf : I just love how because some people want to something they think they should be able to use it everywhere and every time without responsibilities. Ho
105 starbuk7 : So, tell me where I said anything about not being responsible, didn't think so, thanks for the words in my mouth though. Nice theory, now lets try re
106 Post contains images fr8mech : You mean the level of responsibility that you deem fit...not the level that is currently set by law. If you want gun owners and/or carriers to assume
107 Mir : What you're missing is that registration will, over time, dry up the supply going to the black market, since anyone who sells onto the black market w
108 CalebWilliams : Yes, for some criminals, it won't make a difference. But if it cost $100 to buy a gun instead of $50 (for example), fewer people will be buying them.
109 fr8mech : Which, in my opinion is worse. It's the reason why we should not have a database. Or, more people would have to be "rolled" before a criminal will be
110 mt99 : Like asking for ID at the ballot box?
111 flipdewaf : I think I might have mentioned this in a thread before but why don't you just amend the 2nd amendment again? It's already been done once then the laws
112 Post contains links Smittyone : Because it is a relatively challenging thing to accomplish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article..._of_the_United_States_Constitution Those who are n
113 cmf : I'm sorry, obviously only you are allowed to put words in other peoples mouths. Like how you claim they want to make it more expensive just to deter
114 Mir : Or it can more accurately be looked at as a tool to keep guns out of the hands of those who are likely to do harm with them. It's certainly not a pre
115 Post contains links starbuk7 : Perfect example of what we are talking about right here. http://www.humanevents.com/2013/03/1...er-facebook-photo-of-childs-rifle/
116 Post contains images cmf : Is it? Did they confiscate any guns? It is easy to make an article to say what you want. Then top it off with a half truth to get people up in arms.
117 fr8mech : It's actually analogous to what we do when transferring guns (when using a dealer, and what would happen with universal background check), you are ve
118 cmf : What agent of the state refused to identify herself?
119 Mir : I note that whether or not there was registration would not have made a difference in whether that happened or not. -Mir
120 Post contains links fr8mech : Sorry, I thought he posted the link I had read. Try this one: http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/art...un-photo-4368116.php#ixzz2O5Z3yizW Or this one:
121 Maverick623 : And casting a vote doesn't have costs associated with it?
122 cmf : Didn't know if there was some missing info, you wanted the person who made the call come forward or something else. The additional article certainly
123 Mir : A vote is an abstract concept, and thus cannot have costs associated with it. -Mir
124 fr8mech : So voting equipment is free? The poll workers are paid in "abstract" money? Yes, the actual vote is free, in so much as you don't have to pay to cast
125 Mir : As is the process of obtaining a gun. And that's before you actually pay for the gun. You want a critical difference between voting rights and gun ow
126 kingairta : And how would registering guns actually make society "safer" It doesn't. Because bad guys will still be bad guys. Voter ID I'm for it. Why should an i
127 fr8mech : Careful there. There are a few folks here that think that if the firearm isn't in an alarmed safe at all times, you may as well be handing it to a cr
128 mt99 : Well the ID is intended to prove your registration. No? Gun safety programs would be a good one. So you think this can happen with voting too? why ke
129 kingairta : You need a list of voters to ensure people only cast one vote. How hard is that to understand? Please tell me how gun registration is a good thing?
130 mt99 : Oh - i thought it also supposed to keep illegals from voting too. So as long as illegals only vote once; its OK?
131 kingairta : What it can't do both? I like how you avoided my question. You haven't a clue. You just want to argue to argue.
132 Post contains images mt99 : Right - so why cant gun registration help keep guns from people who should not have them? Just like voter registration is intended to keep illegals f
133 kingairta : So you think that every thug who already has a gun and doesn't give a damn about laws will suddenly go and register his fire arm? So no it won't keep
134 mt99 : Was Adam Lanza a criminal before he went to Sandy Hook?
135 kingairta : I guess you missed the part that he stole the weapons he used. So much for laws against stealing ehh? How would registration have prevented SH?
136 fr8mech : Deflection, again. We understand that you have a hard-on with Arizona's attempts to get the illegal immigration problem under control, but this is a
137 mt99 : 'They belonged to his mother. Would stricter registration made her mother been stopped for purchasing those guns in the first place? How about, regis
138 mt99 : Yet both have fundamental roots in the Constitution. Its a question on how you treat the Constitution in General. Isn't that the main argument agains
139 kingairta : Why would she be stopped from buying a firearm in the first place? Was she a convicted felon barred from owning a firearm? Wouldn't change the fact h
140 mt99 : Was she? i don't know? was she mentally unstable? - did you know her? Agreed. Any reason to make it easier for them? Listen, if you feel like 20 chil
141 kingairta : Your argument is over. You are now attacking ME because you have no where else to go.
142 Post contains images mt99 : Oh i dint know you did run around with 20 guns on your backyard. I apologize. I though i was putting up a complete exaggeration. I guess that really
143 kingairta : It damn well was and you know it. Saying I don't care that innocent children lost their lives because I don't agree with you. That is uncalled for. S
144 mt99 : But he did not did he? He used a guns. OK - this is good; let keep on this point: how do you control the wielder?[Edited 2013-03-21 13:47:52]
145 kingairta : By identifying who needs mental help and ensuring they get the help they need. Which has nothing to do with gun registration no matter how you try and
146 mt99 : So you are saying that his crime was unstoppable? That's giving up. OK , good again - so if someone need mental help should they be allowed to have w
147 flipdewaf : Drug takers will find drugs so you may as well legalise them all. Fred
148 kingairta : Not giving up just directing efforts in a more productive direction. Have you ever tried to purchase a firearm? A NICS check will show those who have
149 mt99 : So you accept that it was unstoppable? Excellent! You are hitting all the good marks!. What about those who have yet to be determined to be mentally
150 kingairta : Given hindsight and what idiot was doing with the spreadsheet of all the mass murders of the past yes he was unstoppable. It might not have been an e
151 mt99 : Ok Unstoppable.Would have a See.. man you are easy to talk to. .so would a single teacher with 45 be able to stop him? Oh yes it can if registration
152 cmf : Because a large number of all guns sold to criminals are through straw sales in the last three years. As it stands today there is no way to tie a wea
153 kingairta : The only way to make registration work and accomplish what people want is to magically make all fire arms vanish and start fresh. There is too many g
154 CalebWilliams : No, you explain it. It is you (and other pro-gun people) that bring this point up. (Again and again.) I can put out any coincidence I want: Why are t
155 Post contains links kingairta : Educate your self on the gun laws in those two cities. Recently the USSC overturned an out right ban on hand guns in both those cities. Just look at
156 Post contains images mt99 : So, tell us about violent crime in Japan.. Tell us abou their gun laws too PS. I like how you ignore my last post
157 fr8mech : Except that it isn't. We register to vote in order to assure that we are eligible to vote and to assure we vote in the right place. We would like to
158 cmf : No, there is no magic in registration. It works but it needs time. It takes time because there are a lot of guns out there. But it gets worse the lon
159 Mir : It absolutely does. Scenario: gunrunner buys gun, later sells gun illegally to criminal on the street, criminal uses it in a crime, gun is later reco
160 kingairta : Because criminals go after easy targets. If they know the target is going to be unarmed then they take advantage. Just look at all the mass shootings
161 Mir : Ah, that old tired argument. I didn't say it would do anything about guns already in circulation - I said it would stop new guns entering the black m
162 fr8mech : You can also say that we've allowed states like New York (specifically NYC), New Jersey, Illinois, etc make it easier for criminals to commit violent
163 cmf : What do you bet?
164 Mir : If that were really true, you'd be seeing a large influx of criminals as well as guns. But you don't - the criminals tend to stay where they are, and
165 mt99 : Does having and ID prove that you do not have a mental illness? So wait - you want a National ID? Signed by who? that hardly matters. Signed (also, a
166 kingairta : I never said they would I said they would find a way to do what they want with what ever weapon is needed. I'm sorry but I'm referring to all the gun
167 mt99 : And tell me.. how do "bad" people kill people in Japan? What weapons do they use? Right - proving that allowing guns in schools would not have necess
168 fr8mech : I agree, let states decide for themselves and let the marketplace deal with it. If people like the way NY, NJ, et. al. are dealing with firearms and
169 mt99 : I cant I think its fantastic idea. 100% support for me. Can you convince the TEA partiers to support it? Remember the ones that refused to answer the
170 kingairta : Tell me why does Switzerland have such a low crime rate. You realize Switzerland every citizen has a firearm right? True. But at the same time Idiot
171 kingairta : Your always going to have extremists. It's human nature. Luckily those few don't out number the many. The problem is the vocal minority over powers t
172 mt99 : Which are issued by the Government, which means that guns are registered, Ammo is highly controlled.. Sounds like a great plant to me. Seems like you
173 mt99 : "thousand upon thousand" have been killed in the USA due to riots? WOW So why have NICS even? Are you against it?
174 kingairta : Because that's how Mass murders work. They go for the easiest targets. Like I pointed out the only mass shooting in the last 20 years that took place
175 kingairta : I didn't say that. I was referring to your idea that people in the US are not killed as a result of free speech. When in fact they are. Because it do
176 fr8mech : Nothing that doesn't run afoul of HIPAA regulations. We'll need some legislation for that. Only of you think it's ok for someone to go through a "vot
177 mt99 : That also happened where shoes where present.. does shoes incite killers? I am not an expert on mass murders (unlike you); but for me the fact that t
178 mt99 : Excellent!., so the "bar" to exercise all constitutional right should be the same? Some eligibility requirements already exist, more can be added no?
179 kingairta : Explain to me why all but one mass shooting has taken place in a gun free zone? Ask those people in the Mall in Oregon that were saved because ONE pe
180 mt99 : Because of what they are: schools, theaters, malls.. nothing more nothing less. Was the mall in darkness? were people sitting down?
181 kingairta : My response did not mean I agreed with the "thousands upon thousands" but I did agree people did lose their lives in the US as a result of people exe
182 Post contains images mt99 : And how do they get killed? Guns maybe?
183 kingairta : What do those areas have in common? Lack of armed response. You know the answer to that. But go ahead and ignore just the presence of resistance ende
184 kingairta : among other weapons... More people are killed every year with a blunt object then a rifle. Maybe we should make everyone register their hammers.
185 Post contains images mt99 : The also have in common that they have running water, people, roof and electric lights.. Dude - i am not slaying it did not. Does it help some times
186 mt99 : We are still talking about killings stemming from Free Speech. How many killing due to Free Speech happend with a hammer?[Edited 2013-03-22 09:46:44]
187 kingairta : Yes. The guy was an off duty cop who is allowed to carry in gun free zones.
188 kingairta : You know I can't answer that. But it doesn't change the fact more people are killed with blunt objects then rifles does it?
189 kingairta : mt99 is doing nothing but being a troll. I'm done.
190 mt99 : So he was a highly trained professional. That makes a huge diffference. What if he had been a random guy who just got his first gun that morning?
191 Post contains links fr8mech : Yes, but a mass killing can be stopped with a gun. It's been shown time and again, as soon as any armed response is mounted, the killer will do one o
192 flipdewaf : In terms of statistical validity that is what is called a Y-Y correlation and as a result shows no specific causal link between the two. The statisti
193 cmf : Where is the willingness you claimed? Are you all talk and no action? Lets make it a real bet.
194 Post contains images Smittyone : "Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after us". But seriously the real question is how does the government manage to give people so
195 Mir : There is a huge difference between laws governing what weapons are legal in a certain state (a state issue) and laws governing the process for procur
196 FlyDeltaJets : A speed bump that will get larger over time. Registration will make it harder for the straw purchase to occur if the straw buyer has to register the
197 fr8mech : There are already federal laws on the books that "prevent" interstate trafficking of firearms. It seems to me, that if a state wants to decrease the
198 Mir : And they're ineffective, because the amount of work that a prosecutor would have to do in order to build a solid case under those laws is prohibitive
199 fr8mech : Yup, but I'm just searching for solutions to the problem that a firearm-restrictive state could enact that would not infringe on the rights of those
200 Darksnowynight : "Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. " "nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding
201 Post contains links fr8mech : No one was making the disenfranchised vote when the poll tax existed either. You're misquoting. On page 26 of the Heller decision you'll find: Finall
202 Mir : Background check. Registration. Done. -Mir
203 kingairta : Registration will not end the black market EVER. Look at all the illegal drugs that come across the boarder. Not much harder to do the same with guns.
204 Post contains images Mir : Nothing will end the black market ever. Good thing we're not talking about ending the black market, only putting a sizeable dent in it. You think it'
205 kingairta : If you get your way it will be the opposite. Tell me how do gang bangers get full auto weapons? Its not straw purchases via gun shows and such that's
206 cmf : Giving everyone a weapon will not stop murders. Still waiting for you to put some of your stated willingness behind that bet you brought up.
207 FlyDeltaJets : Those guns that every Swiss male HAD were highly regulated and they are registered as well. Its only the males of military age as well and the total
208 Post contains links cmf : Your example was far from perfect. Nor is this. But it highlights some of the problems that the gun side constantly refuse to address. "Teenager Mist
209 Post contains links fr8mech : Half a dozen one way, 6 the other. You are proposing we impose a tax on anyone wishing to legally exercise their Second Amendment right. Call it a fe
210 cmf : You already agree on background checks and that there is a cost for them. Including gun registration in that process is next to free of charge. On to
211 dl021 : keeping and bearing arms is an enumerated right protected by the Constitution. Taxing this right would be the same as taxing citizens to exercise thei
212 fr8mech : I don't have a problem with background checks because they confirm eligibility to own a firearm. A registration fee (tax) on each gun is an added bur
213 Mir : Fine. The net trade will still be lower, and that's the important thing. No, it's not. But since the vast majority of gun crimes in this country aren
214 cmf : Registration is about identifying who is the owner of a weapon showing up in a place it doesn't belong. Unlike the background check there is nothing
215 MSPNWA : When I see posts like this, I'm saddened as an American to see where this country is headed. You essentially have no value for the freedoms this coun
216 fr8mech : What is one of the ways a government discourages (or encourages) a behaviour? By taxing that action or reducing the taxation on that behaviour. Reduc
217 kingairta : You might want to look at the laws in regards to record keeping for background checks. I spoke in generalities so back off. You really believe that?
218 cmf : I did not state current laws amount to tyranny. It is sad to see people make so outlandish claims when they can't even read what was said. No, what m
219 fr8mech : Which is exactly what we are doing; standing up for what is right. Oh, that's beautiful. I understand that taxation is necessary. But, it is not taxa
220 FlyDeltaJets : All government services cost money. The money has to come from somewhere.
221 fr8mech : You sound like a firearms registration database is an essential service of government. Again, that's opinion. All the more reason not to do it if the
222 cmf : Why don't you tell me what it is I have overlooked instead of doing unsupported statements. Back off or you will shoot? Because you stand your ground
223 Maverick623 : Actually, you both are wrong in this regard. People are no longer "protected" from anything, if they ever were. Most of the so-called rights we enjoy
224 Mir : Public safety is an essential service of government. Firearms trafficking and straw purchases of firearms present a clear threat to public safety. Th
225 kingairta : CMF if you are so right where is your proof? You say all mine is based on my conviction. Yet you never provide anything to support your opinion. Every
226 cmf : Don't try to turn this on me. Stand up for what you stated. Put a logical statement together and we can start talking. Why don't you start with what
227 FlyDeltaJets : Who is doing these gun grabs. Even the NY law grandfathers the currently owned weapons. It prevents future sales of the "banned" weapons. Gun grabs i
228 CalebWilliams : Kind of like a bunch of men deciding woman's healthcare rights? Or denying rights to other citizens because of so-called religious convictions?
229 Post contains links kingairta : What you don't want to defend your opinions with facts? You demand it of my why not demand it from yourself? Show me proof of why you believe that? I
230 Mir : Are you suggesting that we should let criminals and the mentally ill have guns simply because they were, at one point, eligible to own them? -Mir
231 Post contains links cmf : I defend my statements. You need to defend your statements. No, it is built on experience. Did you read the article? They are taking guns from crimin
232 kingairta : Really? I rest my case.
233 Post contains links starbuk7 : I do not know why some here think that the black market guns that will be sold to criminals were ever registered in the first place. And if this gets
234 kingairta : A 3d printer at this time can't make a chamber that can withstand the pressures of a round being fired. Parts and pieces sure but not the key componen
235 cmf : Who in favor of registration have suggested black market guns will be registered in the first place? Registration isn't about the smuggled and illega
236 kingairta : It wont say who owns it. Just what made it. You will still have to have to find the printer in question. But until the tech improves it is still scien
237 cmf : Safe to create guns then... Because identifying what produced something has never been useful... Then we can safely ignore it... just as you ignore e
238 kingairta : You just love attacking me instead of providing actual points to discuss don't you? It's easy to do when you don't have anything to back yourself up w
239 cmf : I'm not attacking you. I'm just using the same smart ass way of responding as you have been doing. Only in your mind. No, I said it is easy to confir
240 kingairta : And yet is still a long ways away from being able to produce a complete usable firearm. You implied a direct link to the owner of the printer. Maybe
241 cmf : I don't think you will ever choose to do every part in a printer. There are easier and better ways to do some parts. No I didn't. That is your readin
242 kingairta : Doesn't change the fact that it isn't as easy as you would like people to believe. I could say the same about you. Show me the data you supplied? Eve
243 cmf : You just keep repeating the same song. I asked you to list what you feel I should specify better for you. What is so difficult with that? I have prov
244 kingairta : Show me how gun registration will have a significant effect on gun violence.
245 jetblueguy22 : This thread has become quite hostile and personal attacks have become abundant. It will be archived to future posts. Any posts made after the lock wil
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