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Maryland Votes To Abolish Death Penalty  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1538 times:

I think this is excellent news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21810683

This now makes 18 states which will not have the ultimate penalty (according to Wiki). Are there any other states where this is likely to happen in the near future? How do you feel about this and why?


Edited for capitalisation error.

[Edited 2013-03-16 12:36:04]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1533 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
How do you feel about this and why?

I am against it both religiously and non-religiously. I don't see it as accomplishing much, just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind and executions are irreversible. I don't see it as much as a deterrent either



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1531 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I am against it both religiously and non-religiously. I don't see it as accomplishing much, just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind and executions are irreversible. I don't see it as much as a deterrent either


   Agree totally.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

It's definitely not a deterrent. In Canada capital punishment was formally abolished in 1974. Since then the per capita homicide rate has fallen 50%. There's a lot of factors involved in that, clearly, but the basic fact is quite clear.

Another issue is simply cost: with the death penalty, the prosecution has to make it absolutely, 100% clear that the accused is both: guilty, and deserving of the death penalty. For it's part, the judiciary has to afford the condemned every reasonable avenue of appeal, since once it's done it's done.

A twenty year sentence is pretty straightforward, you shorten the cycle time for the accused to be processed and if a mistake has been made, a pardon can be granted and the (formerly) guilty party can be released. Cheaper, an avenue for a meaningful pardon preserved, and public safety is still protected if the accused is indeed guilty.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1509 times:

Over the years I have softened my position on capital punishment. I was a strong supporter, but have moved away from that position. Can't really quantify why I've changed my position. I do believe that capital punishment does have a place in our legal system, but only for the most heinous of criminals. And, you know what? I don't think pre-meditated murder quite cuts it...in my book.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind


Curious, change their mind about what?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I don't see it as much as a deterrent either


There was a study I read sometime ago that concluded it did have a deterrent effect. Don't recall where I read it, though. I'm sure if someone looked hard enough they could find it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind


Curious, change their mind about what?

I'm sorry, should have been more clear. Even if a guy is stuck in prison for life with no chance of getting out, I like the fact that a prisoner has the opportunity to become a better person and change his/her whole mentality, even if it doesn't matter



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13148 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

This is an important trend, in parts recognizing the terrible imbalance of race, economic background and lack of sufficient quality legal counsel too man of those convinced and sentenced to the death penalty vs a live sentence or even able to not be convicted. There has also been growing issues in states with the death penalty having problems with the access to the drugs or staffing to carry out executions. I believe too that anyone who commits a murder may not be fully sane, in too many cases there may be a rush to judgment, lousy police investigations, prosecutors looking for a big conviction to use move on to higher office or big bucks as a private lawyer.

I still believe a death penalty ought to exist on the Federal level for mass or multiple murder especially by terrorism or the murder of a high level Federal official.

It is expected that the Governor (a Democrat) will sign this bill quickly. It will probably help Democrats in Baltimore and other mainly non-white districts in the state but more importantly mean more states reconsidering the moral, ethical and practical issue of continuing the death penalty.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I'm sorry, should have been more clear. Even if a guy is stuck in prison for life with no chance of getting out, I like the fact that a prisoner has the opportunity to become a better person and change his/her whole mentality, even if it doesn't matter


Yeah, on further reflection the case of Stanley Williams may have been the first step in my examining my position on capital punishment.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
I do believe that capital punishment does have a place in our legal system, but only for the most heinous of criminals. And, you know what? I don't think pre-meditated murder quite cuts it...in my book.

So you think it should be reserved for terrorists, or mass murder etc where there is no question over his/her guilt? I'm not a fan of capital punishment in general (I think it's dangerous, expensive and inneffective) but I can probably get behind that...



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

I'm against it for several reasons

1) There's an element that you're bringing yourself down to their level
2) I feel it's a let off, i'd rather die than spend my life in prison. Also a lot of people who do terrible crimes are so nuts they don't seem to care about dying anyway
3) The obvious chance that you kill an innocent person

Maybe for serious war crimes


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This now makes 18 states which will not have the ultimate penalty (according to Wiki). Are there any other states where this is likely to happen in the near future? How do you feel about this and why?

Colorado & Delaware are looking to go that way soon too.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13148 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

Another factor leading more states to end or considering ending the death penalty are the costs of it There are the numerious appeals to the court system, the paying for appointed defense lawyers, the increasing costs of challanges of methods of execution, as well as that for special jail housing for those on 'death row'. That appeals to many taxpayers of both parties beyond the moral reasons and together with stronger and true 'life without parole' sentences so jailed until death in jail of old age sentences, the death penalty is becoming less practical to have on the books.

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
So you think it should be reserved for terrorists, or mass murder


Personally, I don't think terrorists belong in our judicial system. They have declared war against us...but, that's a different topic.

As for mass murderers: I'm not a fan of putting a number on when it's ok to execute someone. What's the number? 5, 10, 20?
And, while I'm not a fan of the insanity defense...there's is that element to a mass murderer.
Let's just say I'm on the fence when it comes to a mass murderer. but, given the opportunity, they normally take care of themselves.

I want sexual predators, pedophiles and drug pushers (not the street level idiot) done away with.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1347 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
How do you feel about this and why?

I loathe that "penalty".

It is immoral because it takes the public who hands out the penalty to the level of the criminal. Taking someone else's life is always wrong. It is not a deterrent, not in many cases anyway, as statistics show. It does not bring anyone justice, only revenge and this kind of revenge has no place whatsoever in a civilised society.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7592 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I don't see it as much as a deterrent either

putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life. The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down, having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
As for mass murderers: I'm not a fan of putting a number on when it's ok to execute someone. What's the number? 5, 10, 20?

What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1301 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life

Let's be realistic - in most western countries (in fact, particularly in your adopted country Rob) nobody 'rots' in a cell. Many prisons offer opportunities for learning and other self-development, so I think we need to retain some perspective here. In the US there are some harsh prisons as I understand, but I still believe that some are probably not all that bad for longterm prisoners. I think it's a better punishment, because it doesn't involve more murder, and it allows a person to come to their wits about what they did. I think the denial of freedom permanently is more of a satisfactory punishment for many victims too - I know it would be for me. As for cost-effective, I don't know, but I don't think that cost should be the primary concern where justice is concerned.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1286 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life. The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down, having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.


I disagree, someone sentenced to death should be afforded every avenue to mitigate his sentence. If we execute someone, we need to be damned sure. And, I would never use the cost argument...that does bring us down a notch.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB,


The Norwegian guy? Yeah, like I said...I'm on the fence in the case of a mass murderer.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
In the US there are some harsh prisons as I understand,


Having never been to a US prison, I can't speak to it from experience. But, while there may be isolated aberrations, I suspect even the harshest US prison is a veritable paradise compared to some other countries.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
because it doesn't involve more murder,


That statement implies that you believe capital punishment is murder. I wouldn't say that. Execution, after due process has been followed, is not murder, it is "just retribution".



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1277 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
That statement implies that you believe capital punishment is murder.

And I do. It's the pre-meditated taking of a life. I know obviously in the legal sense it can't be considered murder in places where the law allows it, but in the moral sense I consider it to be so.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
But, while there may be isolated aberrations, I suspect even the harshest US prison is a veritable paradise compared to some other countries.

I am talking in relative terms, for instance in comparison to progressive Norwegian prisons. I am absolutely in agreement that in comparison to the conditions in many poorer countries, US prisons are not harsh. I will certainly qualify my earlier statement also by saying that I'm no expert on the US prison system, and am basing my observations largely on various documentaries. One casual observation is that in some high security prisons in the US, cells can be both tiny and very 'cage-like', whereas as far as I see in UK and many other European jails, cells tend to at least to some small extent look a little bit more like actual rooms. As I say though, no expert - just amateur observations.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinegabrielchew From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3311 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1216 times:

I can't believe that 2/3 of US States still have the death penalty. State sanctioned murder has no place in a civilised society, irrespective of the crime.

Well done Maryland for joining most of the rest of the First World.



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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):
I loathe that "penalty".

And so do I.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down,

And how many appeals do they have in the U.S.? To my albeit limited knowledge, there normally is one automated appeal to the supreme court of state, one appeal to the federal court and one petition for writ of habeas corpus. You only have more rights when new evidence is found, and even this right to appeal is limited, the number of different attacks one can raise has been limited.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.

As I said, in most cases we basically have the situation you want: Two appeals, one writ of habeas corpus. If you wish to further limit appeals, you run at risk of executing innocent people - which sadly has happened. There were reports concerning an Alabama(?) woman the other day who spent 20 years on death row and who is probably innocent as we only now know.

Besides, the ' deterrent value of the sentence' has always been questionable, no matter how long prisoners are on death row.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.

First: It is highly unlikely that Anders Breivik will be out in 20 years. Second: he should of course not have been executed. The death penalty is abolished, and that's one of the better things here in Europe.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20013 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1177 times:

I don't have a problem with the death penalty in theory. If guilt could be absolutely, mathematically certainly demonstrated, then I'd be all for it. The trouble is that it's never the case. If it were, then there would be no need for appeals.

In the real world, the death penalty does not deter crime. It does not save money (it costs more to execute a prisoner than keep him in prison for the rest of his life). It runs the risk of killing innocents and it has in the past.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
I still believe a death penalty ought to exist on the Federal level for mass or multiple murder especially by terrorism or the murder of a high level Federal official.
Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 18):

There is no federal murder statute so that would require a change in laws before all the states abolished it and kept it only for mass murders.

There are plenty of horrendous and hanieous crimes commute which I do beleive the death penalty should exist. However I also believe there needs to be 100% certainty. How? DNA evidence, maybe a security camera of there's on committing the crime. Things like that. But states certainly should be able to chose if they want it or not and I won't hate on a state for getting rid of it. I think about how much it does cost to have a trial with the death penalty and it sure is costly. But I do see a place for it for the worst society has to offer. And absolute worst.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1164 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 21):
However I also believe there needs to be 100% certainty.

Hasn't "100% certainty" always been required? Yet innocent people have been executed? Kinda touches on what Doc said



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20013 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1156 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):

Hasn't "100% certainty" always been required? Yet innocent people have been executed? Kinda touches on what Doc said

I can see when it's for things like genocide. In those cases, it's awfully clear-cut. But otherwise, I oppose it.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1895 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1154 times:
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The death penalty is the ultimate level of government control. The government can literally choose who can live or die. This has to be a small government hawk's worst nightmare. There is no reversing death. We have made mistakes in the past and we will do it again. This should be reason enough that it should be eliminated. Drawing a line about how heinous a crime should be to warrant death is a slippery slope. It is expensive. Any person sentenced to death in the US must automatically go through a "second trial" to ensure the death penalty is to be applied. This doesn't include the countless appeals a condemned prisoner will undertake with the hopes of overturning or reducing the sentence. It also cost's more to house a death row inmate in comparison to a regular inmate. Estimates are it is $90,000 per year more to house someone on death row.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
25 KiwiRob : You don't know the Norwegian justice system, he'll be out, I guarantee it, if a.net is around in 20 years we will be discussing his release, that's i
26 Darksnowynight : Totally agree. Good to see my home state doing the right things here. Yeah, that makes enough sense. If I were enraged/crazy enough to kill someone,
27 bueb0g : Paedophiles or child molestors? He won't be out in 20 years. If you remember from the trial, there were special measures taken in his sentencing for
28 fr8mech : No. The government does not decide, in the end, who lives and dies. A jury does that. The government can bring the charge and seek the death penalty.
29 Post contains links Darksnowynight : Yes. Perhaps. It would be something of a paradox there. But the fact remains that it would still lack deterrent value there as well.
30 fr8mech : Well, assuming that the authors are correct, it just solidifies my position that I think, in general, that capital punishment isn't always the way to
31 Post contains links connies4ever : I remember back in the 70s buying a guy (American) a beer in Marbella, Spain, Just got out after year for a small amount of bud (this was when Franco
32 DeltaMD90 : Again, unless I'm mistaken, that is already required yet there still are these cases. I thought there were more, and I'm too busy at the moment to lo
33 fr8mech : I guess, I need to be clearer on what I mean. I used the word "proven", but let's use the word "obvious and proven". How about Loughner and Holmes? T
34 DeltaMD90 : Or as obvious as OJ? Point is, our justice system is imperfect. Maybe we are right 99.9% of the 'obvious' times but with any chance of failure, I don
35 fr8mech : No, OJ was neither obvious nor proven. I'm pretty much saying that if all we're looking at is a jury conviction, it is not enough to execute. I want
36 DeltaMD90 : But what is the legality/framework for this, etc? What exists being juries of peers? Who would make this determination?
37 fr8mech : There is none. So we work within our current framework and seek the death penalty only when it's "obvious." A pipe dream. That's why over the years m
38 DeltaMD90 : Ah I gotcha. I don't think it has a place, but I see that your outcome is basically the reasoning I'm getting at. I'd add that your admitted pipedrea
39 KiwiRob : No he was sentenced to the Norwegian maximum term of 21 years. See above, he'll actually be eligible for parole after 10 years. Anders did his crime
40 fr8mech : You know what? I do believe that if I had lost someone during his cowardly, heinous attacks, I may just take the lax penal system in Norway and use i
41 Post contains links Dreadnought : The only reason that it is not an effective deterrent is that it takes 20 years to execute someone. If one were assured of a trail within 6 months of
42 fr8mech : Funny thing is: I really don't think the prison system here in the states is much of a deterrent. Yeah, it's better to be free than to be confined, b
43 Post contains images L0VE2FLY : I wonder how many of those against the death penalty will reverse their stance if the murder victim was someone from their immediate family?! Someone
44 DeltaMD90 : I hardly consider myself "bleeding heart" but I'm still against killing him. He's disgusting, no doubt That is a good point which is exactly why I lo
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