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Maryland Votes To Abolish Death Penalty  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7638 posts, RR: 21
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1440 times:
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I think this is excellent news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21810683

This now makes 18 states which will not have the ultimate penalty (according to Wiki). Are there any other states where this is likely to happen in the near future? How do you feel about this and why?


Edited for capitalisation error.

[Edited 2013-03-16 12:36:04]


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
How do you feel about this and why?

I am against it both religiously and non-religiously. I don't see it as accomplishing much, just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind and executions are irreversible. I don't see it as much as a deterrent either



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7638 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1433 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I am against it both religiously and non-religiously. I don't see it as accomplishing much, just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind and executions are irreversible. I don't see it as much as a deterrent either


   Agree totally.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

It's definitely not a deterrent. In Canada capital punishment was formally abolished in 1974. Since then the per capita homicide rate has fallen 50%. There's a lot of factors involved in that, clearly, but the basic fact is quite clear.

Another issue is simply cost: with the death penalty, the prosecution has to make it absolutely, 100% clear that the accused is both: guilty, and deserving of the death penalty. For it's part, the judiciary has to afford the condemned every reasonable avenue of appeal, since once it's done it's done.

A twenty year sentence is pretty straightforward, you shorten the cycle time for the accused to be processed and if a mistake has been made, a pardon can be granted and the (formerly) guilty party can be released. Cheaper, an avenue for a meaningful pardon preserved, and public safety is still protected if the accused is indeed guilty.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1411 times:

Over the years I have softened my position on capital punishment. I was a strong supporter, but have moved away from that position. Can't really quantify why I've changed my position. I do believe that capital punishment does have a place in our legal system, but only for the most heinous of criminals. And, you know what? I don't think pre-meditated murder quite cuts it...in my book.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind


Curious, change their mind about what?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I don't see it as much as a deterrent either


There was a study I read sometime ago that concluded it did have a deterrent effect. Don't recall where I read it, though. I'm sure if someone looked hard enough they could find it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
just gives less time for the prisoner to change his/her mind


Curious, change their mind about what?

I'm sorry, should have been more clear. Even if a guy is stuck in prison for life with no chance of getting out, I like the fact that a prisoner has the opportunity to become a better person and change his/her whole mentality, even if it doesn't matter



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

This is an important trend, in parts recognizing the terrible imbalance of race, economic background and lack of sufficient quality legal counsel too man of those convinced and sentenced to the death penalty vs a live sentence or even able to not be convicted. There has also been growing issues in states with the death penalty having problems with the access to the drugs or staffing to carry out executions. I believe too that anyone who commits a murder may not be fully sane, in too many cases there may be a rush to judgment, lousy police investigations, prosecutors looking for a big conviction to use move on to higher office or big bucks as a private lawyer.

I still believe a death penalty ought to exist on the Federal level for mass or multiple murder especially by terrorism or the murder of a high level Federal official.

It is expected that the Governor (a Democrat) will sign this bill quickly. It will probably help Democrats in Baltimore and other mainly non-white districts in the state but more importantly mean more states reconsidering the moral, ethical and practical issue of continuing the death penalty.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1389 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I'm sorry, should have been more clear. Even if a guy is stuck in prison for life with no chance of getting out, I like the fact that a prisoner has the opportunity to become a better person and change his/her whole mentality, even if it doesn't matter


Yeah, on further reflection the case of Stanley Williams may have been the first step in my examining my position on capital punishment.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 4):
I do believe that capital punishment does have a place in our legal system, but only for the most heinous of criminals. And, you know what? I don't think pre-meditated murder quite cuts it...in my book.

So you think it should be reserved for terrorists, or mass murder etc where there is no question over his/her guilt? I'm not a fan of capital punishment in general (I think it's dangerous, expensive and inneffective) but I can probably get behind that...



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1114 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1321 times:

I'm against it for several reasons

1) There's an element that you're bringing yourself down to their level
2) I feel it's a let off, i'd rather die than spend my life in prison. Also a lot of people who do terrible crimes are so nuts they don't seem to care about dying anyway
3) The obvious chance that you kill an innocent person

Maybe for serious war crimes


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This now makes 18 states which will not have the ultimate penalty (according to Wiki). Are there any other states where this is likely to happen in the near future? How do you feel about this and why?

Colorado & Delaware are looking to go that way soon too.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

Another factor leading more states to end or considering ending the death penalty are the costs of it There are the numerious appeals to the court system, the paying for appointed defense lawyers, the increasing costs of challanges of methods of execution, as well as that for special jail housing for those on 'death row'. That appeals to many taxpayers of both parties beyond the moral reasons and together with stronger and true 'life without parole' sentences so jailed until death in jail of old age sentences, the death penalty is becoming less practical to have on the books.

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1261 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 8):
So you think it should be reserved for terrorists, or mass murder


Personally, I don't think terrorists belong in our judicial system. They have declared war against us...but, that's a different topic.

As for mass murderers: I'm not a fan of putting a number on when it's ok to execute someone. What's the number? 5, 10, 20?
And, while I'm not a fan of the insanity defense...there's is that element to a mass murderer.
Let's just say I'm on the fence when it comes to a mass murderer. but, given the opportunity, they normally take care of themselves.

I want sexual predators, pedophiles and drug pushers (not the street level idiot) done away with.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8621 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 1249 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
How do you feel about this and why?

I loathe that "penalty".

It is immoral because it takes the public who hands out the penalty to the level of the criminal. Taking someone else's life is always wrong. It is not a deterrent, not in many cases anyway, as statistics show. It does not bring anyone justice, only revenge and this kind of revenge has no place whatsoever in a civilised society.



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User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6686 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I don't see it as much as a deterrent either

putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life. The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down, having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
As for mass murderers: I'm not a fan of putting a number on when it's ok to execute someone. What's the number? 5, 10, 20?

What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7638 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1203 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life

Let's be realistic - in most western countries (in fact, particularly in your adopted country Rob) nobody 'rots' in a cell. Many prisons offer opportunities for learning and other self-development, so I think we need to retain some perspective here. In the US there are some harsh prisons as I understand, but I still believe that some are probably not all that bad for longterm prisoners. I think it's a better punishment, because it doesn't involve more murder, and it allows a person to come to their wits about what they did. I think the denial of freedom permanently is more of a satisfactory punishment for many victims too - I know it would be for me. As for cost-effective, I don't know, but I don't think that cost should be the primary concern where justice is concerned.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1188 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
putting them down is more humane and probably more cost effective than having them rot in a cell for life. The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down, having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.


I disagree, someone sentenced to death should be afforded every avenue to mitigate his sentence. If we execute someone, we need to be damned sure. And, I would never use the cost argument...that does bring us down a notch.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB,


The Norwegian guy? Yeah, like I said...I'm on the fence in the case of a mass murderer.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
In the US there are some harsh prisons as I understand,


Having never been to a US prison, I can't speak to it from experience. But, while there may be isolated aberrations, I suspect even the harshest US prison is a veritable paradise compared to some other countries.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
because it doesn't involve more murder,


That statement implies that you believe capital punishment is murder. I wouldn't say that. Execution, after due process has been followed, is not murder, it is "just retribution".



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7638 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1179 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
That statement implies that you believe capital punishment is murder.

And I do. It's the pre-meditated taking of a life. I know obviously in the legal sense it can't be considered murder in places where the law allows it, but in the moral sense I consider it to be so.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
But, while there may be isolated aberrations, I suspect even the harshest US prison is a veritable paradise compared to some other countries.

I am talking in relative terms, for instance in comparison to progressive Norwegian prisons. I am absolutely in agreement that in comparison to the conditions in many poorer countries, US prisons are not harsh. I will certainly qualify my earlier statement also by saying that I'm no expert on the US prison system, and am basing my observations largely on various documentaries. One casual observation is that in some high security prisons in the US, cells can be both tiny and very 'cage-like', whereas as far as I see in UK and many other European jails, cells tend to at least to some small extent look a little bit more like actual rooms. As I say though, no expert - just amateur observations.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlinegabrielchew From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 3047 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1118 times:

I can't believe that 2/3 of US States still have the death penalty. State sanctioned murder has no place in a civilised society, irrespective of the crime.

Well done Maryland for joining most of the rest of the First World.



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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):
I loathe that "penalty".

And so do I.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
The problem in the US is to many appeals, they should get 2 appeals at most then put them down,

And how many appeals do they have in the U.S.? To my albeit limited knowledge, there normally is one automated appeal to the supreme court of state, one appeal to the federal court and one petition for writ of habeas corpus. You only have more rights when new evidence is found, and even this right to appeal is limited, the number of different attacks one can raise has been limited.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
having someone sitting on death row for decades reduces the deterrent value of the sentence.

As I said, in most cases we basically have the situation you want: Two appeals, one writ of habeas corpus. If you wish to further limit appeals, you run at risk of executing innocent people - which sadly has happened. There were reports concerning an Alabama(?) woman the other day who spent 20 years on death row and who is probably innocent as we only now know.

Besides, the ' deterrent value of the sentence' has always been questionable, no matter how long prisoners are on death row.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.

First: It is highly unlikely that Anders Breivik will be out in 20 years. Second: he should of course not have been executed. The death penalty is abolished, and that's one of the better things here in Europe.



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User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18708 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

I don't have a problem with the death penalty in theory. If guilt could be absolutely, mathematically certainly demonstrated, then I'd be all for it. The trouble is that it's never the case. If it were, then there would be no need for appeals.

In the real world, the death penalty does not deter crime. It does not save money (it costs more to execute a prisoner than keep him in prison for the rest of his life). It runs the risk of killing innocents and it has in the past.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 6):
I still believe a death penalty ought to exist on the Federal level for mass or multiple murder especially by terrorism or the murder of a high level Federal official.
Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 18):

There is no federal murder statute so that would require a change in laws before all the states abolished it and kept it only for mass murders.

There are plenty of horrendous and hanieous crimes commute which I do beleive the death penalty should exist. However I also believe there needs to be 100% certainty. How? DNA evidence, maybe a security camera of there's on committing the crime. Things like that. But states certainly should be able to chose if they want it or not and I won't hate on a state for getting rid of it. I think about how much it does cost to have a trial with the death penalty and it sure is costly. But I do see a place for it for the worst society has to offer. And absolute worst.



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User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1066 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 21):
However I also believe there needs to be 100% certainty.

Hasn't "100% certainty" always been required? Yet innocent people have been executed? Kinda touches on what Doc said



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18708 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1058 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):

Hasn't "100% certainty" always been required? Yet innocent people have been executed? Kinda touches on what Doc said

I can see when it's for things like genocide. In those cases, it's awfully clear-cut. But otherwise, I oppose it.


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1787 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1056 times:

The death penalty is the ultimate level of government control. The government can literally choose who can live or die. This has to be a small government hawk's worst nightmare. There is no reversing death. We have made mistakes in the past and we will do it again. This should be reason enough that it should be eliminated. Drawing a line about how heinous a crime should be to warrant death is a slippery slope. It is expensive. Any person sentenced to death in the US must automatically go through a "second trial" to ensure the death penalty is to be applied. This doesn't include the countless appeals a condemned prisoner will undertake with the hopes of overturning or reducing the sentence. It also cost's more to house a death row inmate in comparison to a regular inmate. Estimates are it is $90,000 per year more to house someone on death row.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6686 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1082 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 19):
First: It is highly unlikely that Anders Breivik will be out in 20 years.

You don't know the Norwegian justice system, he'll be out, I guarantee it, if a.net is around in 20 years we will be discussing his release, that's if he's not out sooner.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 26, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1059 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):
It is immoral because it takes the public who hands out the penalty to the level of the criminal. Taking someone else's life is always wrong. It is not a deterrent, not in many cases anyway, as statistics show. It does not bring anyone justice, only revenge and this kind of revenge has no place whatsoever in a civilised society.

Totally agree. Good to see my home state doing the right things here.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 19):
Besides, the ' deterrent value of the sentence' has always been questionable, no matter how long prisoners are on death row.

Yeah, that makes enough sense. If I were enraged/crazy enough to kill someone, there's a better than excellent chance that forfeiting my life to make it happen would be little more than an after thought.

Edit for grammar. My graffiti works better that way.

[Edited 2013-03-18 04:07:07]


Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1063 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
pedophiles

Paedophiles or child molestors?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.

He won't be out in 20 years. If you remember from the trial, there were special measures taken in his sentencing for the future; he'll probably never be let out.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 28, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 24):
The death penalty is the ultimate level of government control. The government can literally choose who can live or die.


No. The government does not decide, in the end, who lives and dies. A jury does that. The government can bring the charge and seek the death penalty.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
Yet innocent people have been executed?


Have there been?

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 26):
If I were enraged/crazy enough to kill someone,


Which is a dis-qualifier in most cases for the death penalty. As far as I know, the death penalty requires premeditation or "malice aforethought".

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 27):
Paedophiles or child molestors?


Ok, let's go with the molesters at this point. I guess you can be a pedophile and not have acted on your "impulses", for lack of a better word. Hence, no crime committed.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1038 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
Yet innocent people have been executed?


Have there been?
Yes.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):


Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 26):
If I were enraged/crazy enough to kill someone,


Which is a dis-qualifier in most cases for the death penalty. As far as I know, the death penalty requires premeditation or "malice aforethought".

Perhaps. It would be something of a paradox there. But the fact remains that it would still lack deterrent value there as well.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 30, posted (1 year 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1021 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 29):
Have there been?
Yes.


Well, assuming that the authors are correct, it just solidifies my position that I think, in general, that capital punishment isn't always the way to go, even with premeditation.

I believe that capital punishment has a place in our society, but unless it can be absolutely proven that a person committed an offense that warrants execution, I think we err on the side of a life sentence.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 29):
But the fact remains that it would still lack deterrent value there as well.


Again, I wish I could find that article/study that claimed there was a deterrent value, but to tell you the truth, when I was more of a proponent of capital punishment, I rarely used the deterrent argument, except for one thing.

The person you execute will never threaten anyone again. No one in society and no one in the prison.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 31, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 983 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Having never been to a US prison, I can't speak to it from experience. But, while there may be isolated aberrations, I suspect even the harshest US prison is a veritable paradise compared to some other countries.

I remember back in the 70s buying a guy (American) a beer in Marbella, Spain, Just got out after year for a small amount of bud (this was when Franco was still around). Anyway, you slept on a straw mattress on the floor. With the bugs. Also, he said in passing that for any 'personal items' in jail, you had to pay: toothpaste, soap, and TP, etc, Jeez, if you ran out of cash, that would be harsh !

Anyways, bought the guy what passed for a hot dog, and gave him 500 ptas, which was around $10 back then. I thought he was going to kiss me. But the right thing to do.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 19):
And how many appeals do they have in the U.S.? To my albeit limited knowledge, there normally is one automated appeal to the supreme court of state, one appeal to the federal court and one petition for writ of habeas corpus. You only have more rights when new evidence is found, and even this right to appeal is limited, the number of different attacks one can raise has been limited.

Due to the overly complex legal system in the US, there are many jurisdictions involved in death penalty cases. Between State Supreme Court and the SCOTUS there are Federal Circuit Courts as well. The whole thing is way too involved and only ensures more lawyers have jobs than need be.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 19):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
What about someone like ABB, 78 deaths and he will be out in public within 20 years, that guy should have been executed, no doubt about it.

First: It is highly unlikely that Anders Breivik will be out in 20 years. Second: he should of course not have been executed. The death penalty is abolished, and that's one of the better things here in Europe.

I thought in Norway the legal max was 12 years for anything. That said, some reason will be found to keep him secure until he croaks.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 26):
Totally agree. Good to see my home state doing the right things here.


Governor O'Malley had a thoughtful opinion piece on the topic this AM on Politico ( http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...nds-death-penalty-88972.html?hp=r2 ) I agree, good on Maryland, hopefully more states will follow more quickly.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 32, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 941 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
I believe that capital punishment has a place in our society, but unless it can be absolutely proven that a person committed an offense that warrants execution, I think we err on the side of a life sentence.

Again, unless I'm mistaken, that is already required yet there still are these cases. I thought there were more, and I'm too busy at the moment to look it up, but the fact that this incident could very well happen is another reason I'm against it. 100% sure is already required, yet innocent people still get executed every once in a while?

At least with life in prison you may spend 40 years there and get out... with executions, there is no going back.

I'm also in favor of providing more money for those jailed wrongly. What is offered, $50,000 a year? The almost ultimate deprivation of rights (imprisonment) due to incompetence deserves more, IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 33, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 935 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
Again, unless I'm mistaken, that is already required yet there still are these cases.


I guess, I need to be clearer on what I mean. I used the word "proven", but let's use the word "obvious and proven". How about Loughner and Holmes? They obviously performed the acts they're accused of and it will eventually be proven in a court of law.

Again, there's a place for it in society, but, a very narrow place.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 34, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 932 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
How about Loughner and Holmes? They obviously performed the acts they're accused of and it will eventually be proven in a court of law.

Or as obvious as OJ? Point is, our justice system is imperfect. Maybe we are right 99.9% of the 'obvious' times but with any chance of failure, I don't want death to be on the table.

And even if we do know somehow, some way, that someone did do the crime, what's the big difference between killing them and locking them away forever? I guess it's more of an opinion thing, but I'm pro-life and that to me includes not killing even the most obvious killers



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 929 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
Or as obvious as OJ

No, OJ was neither obvious nor proven.

I'm pretty much saying that if all we're looking at is a jury conviction, it is not enough to execute. I want "obvious". We know Loughner and Holmes did it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 36, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 925 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
I'm pretty much saying that if all we're looking at is a jury conviction, it is not enough to execute. I want "obvious". We know Loughner and Holmes did it.

But what is the legality/framework for this, etc? What exists being juries of peers? Who would make this determination?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 922 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
But what is the legality/framework for this, etc? What exists being juries of peers? Who would make this determination?

There is none. So we work within our current framework and seek the death penalty only when it's "obvious." A pipe dream. That's why over the years my standard for applying the death penalty has changed.

It has a place, but at this point, in my opinion, I just don't like the way it's applied.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 38, posted (1 year 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 921 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):

Ah I gotcha. I don't think it has a place, but I see that your outcome is basically the reasoning I'm getting at. I'd add that your admitted pipedream makes it more trouble than what it is worth... I'd say abolish it just on that logic, my convictions aside



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6686 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 862 times:

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 27):
He won't be out in 20 years. If you remember from the trial, there were special measures taken in his sentencing for the future; he'll probably never be let out.

No he was sentenced to the Norwegian maximum term of 21 years.

Quote:
The indeterminate penalty, called "preventive detention" (Norwegian: forvaring), is set at up to 21 years imprisonment, with no eligibility for parole for a time period not exceeding 10 years. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the detention can be extended by five years at a time. Renewal of the detention every five years can in theory result in actual life imprisonment. Preventive detention is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of his committing violent crimes in the future.[2] However, after the minimum time period has elapsed, the offender can petition for parole once every year, and this may be granted if it is determined that he is no longer a danger to society.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 31):
I thought in Norway the legal max was 12 years for anything. That said, some reason will be found to keep him secure until he croaks.

See above, he'll actually be eligible for parole after 10 years. Anders did his crime and I doubt he'll do anything like it again, he's a smart bloke, he's not nuts, he knows what he did, I'm sure he will be rehabilitated and be out long before 21 years are up. That's the Norwegian way, they don't want people in gaol, they keep them in for the minimum amount of time permissible then send them out, it works the re-offending rate in Norway is about 16% as opposed to 67% in the US. That said I still believe ABB should have been executed; I'm fairly sure than in may countries (NZ included) the police would have killed him rather than arrest him.

Arnfin Nesset Norway's worst serial killer (convicted of 22 murders, believed to have killed 138) was given 21 years, he was transferred to a day release prison after 12 years and eventually given a full release after 21 years.

I have a friend who works with the Norwegian prison system as a social worker, he doesn't say much about his job but he doesn't believe ABB will be in gaol longer than 21 years, so that's good enough for me.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 40, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 854 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):

You know what? I do believe that if I had lost someone during his cowardly, heinous attacks, I may just take the lax penal system in Norway and use it to my advantage.

ABB would die by my hand and then I get to spend 10 years being fed and taken care of by the Norwegian government. Heck, I'd be an exemplary prisoner who has clearly been rehabilitated. I may even get out sooner.

So, with that little bit of drama, we can see where an overly lax penal system acts, not as a deterrent to crime, but may help someone make a decision he wouldn't necessarily make otherwise.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 41, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 844 times:

The only reason that it is not an effective deterrent is that it takes 20 years to execute someone. If one were assured of a trail within 6 months of getting caught, and any appeals are dealt with within a few weeks, and sentencing to be carried out no more than 1 month after sentencing, I'm sure it would cause a few criminals to pause.

But we don't have such a system, so I am ambivalent at best about capital punishment in this country.

I do have 2 things to point out to the bleeding heart crowd, however.

1st: Read this article, and tell me with a straight face that this guy does not deserve to be put down like the rabid dog he is. http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-school-shooter-tj-lane-152105500.html

2nd: Unless you convert every prison in the country to effective solitary confinement, where you never, ever mingle with your fellow prisoners, prisons will continue to be, not a rehabilitation center, but a training ground for criminality. Convicts swap skills, networks and a dog-eat-dog mentality. They leave prison "better" criminals. The only way to stop that is for someone remains locked alone in his cell for 10 years (or whatever his sentence is), and does not set a foot outside for the whole duration. I'm sure even the hardened gangbangers might quail at the thought of going back to that. So, bleeding hearts, would you be willing to make this change?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 42, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 821 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
I'm sure even the hardened gangbangers might quail at the thought of going back to that.

Funny thing is: I really don't think the prison system here in the states is much of a deterrent. Yeah, it's better to be free than to be confined, but does that mindset prevent crime?

Ask yourself this question:

Do you refrain from (***insert crime here***) because you're afraid to go to prison or because it's wrong to commit that crime?

I suggest that if you're reason for not doing the crime is because you fear prison, you're just waiting for the right opportunity or motivation to commit the crime.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineL0VE2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 1162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 821 times:

I wonder how many of those against the death penalty will reverse their stance if the murder victim was someone from their immediate family?! Someone they really love and care about.



Quoting connies4ever (Reply 3):
Another issue is simply cost: with the death penalty, the prosecution has to make it absolutely, 100% clear that the accused is both: guilty, and deserving of the death penalty. For it's part, the judiciary has to afford the condemned every reasonable avenue of appeal, since once it's done it's done.


   During the last elections California considered abolishing the death penalty due to its high cost. The last execution in California was in January 2006.



Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 9):
2) I feel it's a let off, i'd rather die than spend my life in prison.

It depends on the type of prison. A lot of prisoners, including murderers in most developed countries enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle, almost luxurious compared to millions of hard working folks in third world countries.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7278 posts, RR: 52
Reply 44, posted (1 year 1 month 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 793 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
1st: Read this article, and tell me with a straight face that this guy does not deserve to be put down like the rabid dog he is. http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-school-shooter-tj-lane-152105500.html

I hardly consider myself "bleeding heart" but I'm still against killing him. He's disgusting, no doubt

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
2nd: Unless you convert every prison in the country to effective solitary confinement, where you never, ever mingle with your fellow prisoners, prisons will continue to be, not a rehabilitation center, but a training ground for criminality. Convicts swap skills, networks and a dog-eat-dog mentality. They leave prison "better" criminals. The only way to stop that is for someone remains locked alone in his cell for 10 years (or whatever his sentence is), and does not set a foot outside for the whole duration. I'm sure even the hardened gangbangers might quail at the thought of going back to that. So, bleeding hearts, would you be willing to make this change?

That is a good point which is exactly why I look at other countries and see their recidivism rate and how their justice system is. The Europeans may be on to something, their recidivism rate is much much lower but they aren't putting people in total solitary confinement.

I know the US has its own unique problems and adopting another country's system may not work, but it's a great place to start. I think the amount of people we throw in jail for crimes that would only get you fined in Europe doesn't help... turn a non-violent, harmless criminal into a good criminal because he's subjected to much worse people, sometimes

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 43):
I wonder how many of those against the death penalty will reverse their stance if the murder victim was someone from their immediate family?! Someone they really love and care about.

I'll admit, I might think differently if this happened to me. I don't think I would but I never know. I'd be deeply sad, no doubt, but killing the guy, torturing him, letting him free, or any possible action against the criminal wouldn't bring back my love one so I'm not sure if I'd change my mind. It's really a what-if that I don't have the answer for and hope I never do

Until then, I'll use the best reason and morality I have now to guide my actions



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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