DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23605 posts, RR: 60 Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3366 times:
So hubby and I have decided that it's time to do something about the Battle of the Bulge. We're both exercise junkies, so that's not it. We eat lots of veggies and try to adhere to a low-fat diet, but when we try to control portion sizes, we'd just wind up hungry, so that didn't work.
This weekend, we started a completely new way of life. I'm not sure how it's going to work out, but a number of friends have tried it and have had spectacular success, many of whom are similar in lifestyle to us (active exercise junkies). Most have reported weight loss of up to 30 lbs without even trying and a few have stopped relying on blood pressure meds.
The premise is that you eat foods that would be similar to those encountered by our paleolithic (pre-agricultural) ancestors. Lean meats (not grain-fed, but free-range grass-fed), fish, fruits, and vegetables in unlimited quantities. No dairy, no grains or grain-like seeds (like quinoa), no refined sugar, no processed foods, no starches (like potatoes), no added salt.
Tonight, I made our first paleo meal. I marinated chicken in just a touch of Kinder's marinade (this isn't technically paleo, but I added a tablespoon to a half pound of boneless, skinless breast tenders and got most of a tablespoon sitting in the bottom of the plastic baggie when I took the chicken out) and grilled it. I also grilled some asparagus. I then sauteed some onions and peppers in some olive oil with garlic and then added some shrimp. My mother's salad dressing, which is composed of olive oil, vinegar, and dijon mustard, is Paleo-happy (olive oil is one of the only oils permitted) and so we had a salad with avocado, spinach, onions, tomato, and cucumber. I made some sweet potato fries in the oven, too (sweet potatoes and yams are permitted, but potatoes are not).
It was a bit odd what happened. I was happily eating away when suddenly a message came from my stomach: "STOP. You are full. Do not take one more bite." And, sure enough, I wasn't really inclined to take one more bite. I felt full, but not stuffed, not bloated, not like I had over-eaten. It's odd, because had we had our usual side-dish of pasta, I would have kept on eating it until I was stuffed.
I find the entire thing convincing after reading the books because they actually make physiologic sense. Unlike the Atkins diet, which relied a bit too much on what I call "smoke and mirrors," this method actually can explain the detailed physiology, which is something that I really want to see as a physician. In addition, in one of the books, the author freely admitted to having changed his postion on certain foods between editions as new data came in. This speaks to me of a scientific mind that is willing to be proven wrong, rather than a pseudo-religious faddist.
Who here has tried it and what has been your experience?
Kingsford From Belgium, joined Nov 2003, 427 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3301 times:
Staying clear of pre-prepared meals, processed foods and starchy&sugary foods is very good in my opinion. By going 'paleo' you can better control the sugar and salt intake, as well as the origin of your food. However make sure you also do not eat red meat more than once (or twice) a week. This for arteries' sake and the environment. Also if you forego grains, I would probably have some Omega-3, like fish oil as a supplement for a good digestion if that becomes an issue, or chew your food longer than usual.
Grilling meat, poultry or fish is fine to avoid alternative use of oils/fats however bear in mind BBQing or too much grilling is not healthy. I tend to eat my red meat and fish raw (Beef carpaccio/Steak tatar, sashimi). Only cooking poultry and pork really.
Then you have to think of portion control and sports, stay clear of diet soda too
While I've not, I had a friend who went paleo and had pretty good results - the only downside she found was that she came away from it with lactose intolerance. Whereas she loved dairy before, she steers clear now and says in some respects, she wonders if it was worth it. Whether the lactose intolerance is a result of paleo or not I'm not sure, but she seems to think it is.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
RomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3263 times:
Yes i have and i found several problems with it.
1) It's expensive
2) It's hard to get the calories up (i'm not actually overweight, just thought i'd try it anyway)
3) It's completely impractical. You can't eat out and have to prepare all your meals in advance.
4) After a while it's pretty bland.
I'm not actually convinced about the science behind it either. Species can evolve fairly quickly if environments change quickly and i think we are now somewhat adapted to eating cooked things and other carbs like rice and potato.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23605 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3117 times:
Quoting Kingsford (Reply 2): Staying clear of pre-prepared meals, processed foods and starchy&sugary foods is very good in my opinion. By going 'paleo' you can better control the sugar and salt intake, as well as the origin of your food. However make sure you also do not eat red meat more than once (or twice) a week. This for arteries' sake and the environment. Also if you forego grains, I would probably have some Omega-3, like fish oil as a supplement for a good digestion if that becomes an issue, or chew your food longer than usual.
What is important, according to the Paleo folks, isn't red meat, but how that meat was raised. If it was fed grains and confined to a feed lot, it is going to be very high in fat and that fat will be high in Omega-6 fatty acids and also in saturated fats. Free-range grass-fed beef is a) less likely to contain antibiotics (primary cause of antibiotic resistance in the world) and b) much lower in fat and the fat that it does have tends to be more enriched in Omega-3 fatty acids. It's also important to choose cuts that are low in fat, like flank steak, as opposed to fatty cuts like T-bone.
Grains are a horrible source of Omega-3 fatty acids. Those are found most in fish oils. Grains are rich in Omega-6 fatty acids, which are essential, but the balance of Omega-3 to Omega-6 should weigh heavily on the side of the Omega-3's. The modern diet is increasingly enriched in Omega-6, which is partially to blame for all the heart disease and diabetes. Omega-6 fatty acids are precursors of pro-inflammatory molecules called prostaglandins, while Omega-3 fatty acids inhibit the formation of prostaglandins.
Alias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2991 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
My fiancée started last month. She's a type 1 diabetic and it's been very good for keeping her BG levels consistent. She lost I think four pounds in the first two weeks too. It hasn't always been easy having to plan meals ahead, but she seems to feel better on Paleo.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
MrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 985 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3054 times:
Still a fad diet, no matter what anyone says. And like all fad diets, while there *might* be some real benefit to eating what is outlined in the diet, the real mechanism behind their success is that they get you to consciously think about what, when, and how much you're eating. Regardless of whether or not you're following a diet, this...
...is still your only true means of losing weight by diet (you've even said it yourself before). Yeah, it might be uncomfortable to feel hungry once in a while, but more often than not it's more of a psychological need to eat than physiological. Apart from the "low-hanging fruit" (avoiding processed foods or foods high in sodium, no more pop or fruit juice, essentially eliminating alcohol intake, switching most of my carb intake to whole grains and increasing my fibre intake), I've basically done nothing diet-wise apart from aggressively (and honestly) count my caloric intake.
One thing you might want to consider is adding more weight training to your workout routines, as it will not only give you a big, short-term boost in metabolism, but the resultant increase in muscle mass will burn more calories for any given workout whether it's mostly cardio or mostly weights. Think of it this way - running a 6-liter auto engine at full power will burn a lot more fuel than if you ran a 2-liter engine at full power. Also, try to find a way to work out more often; I went from three long workouts a week of moderate intensity to five short workouts a week of high intensity - even if it's only 15-20 minutes it will make a huge difference. I can't recommend Men's Health's "Big Book of 15-Minute Workouts" enough - no matter your level of knowledge, it is a fantastic resource.
Since I made all those changes about a year ago, I've gone from a muscular-but-soft 215 lb. to a much more trim 200; I went from 34" to 32" around my waist, and went from 40" to 43" around my chest (for reference, I'm 6'1" tall). Also, for the first time in nearly 10 years, my abs are starting to show themselves. Beyond the superficial benefits (and there are benefits - just ask MrsChips!), my stress levels are lower (despite working in an arguably more stressful environment compared to last year) and my energy level is leaps and bounds higher than before. As cliche as it sounds, I truly am in the best shape of my life right now.
Also, please don't eat quinoa. By eating this grain, you're pricing it out of the reach of the people who need to eat it to survive.
captaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5116 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3047 times:
I have been on a Pseudo Paleo diet for about a year. I do include hard cheeses and yoghurt, corn and rice in limited quantity. The results are amazing... I feel great, I have endless energy, I have become much slimmer, my skin, my wife´s skin amazing. The list of changes we noted is pretty long. I think Paleo or Paleo like is good, because the premise is avoid processed foods, gluten and other foods not typical of the paleolithic age, since our genetic makeup hasn't varied much since that time. Nevertheless, avoidance of things like gluten is reasonable because gluten, or at least gliadin (one of the proteins) is known to damage the epithelial cells in the small intestines, you being celiac or not. It as a result can cause leaky gut. Go for it. Just try it for one month, just one month and report. Of course spend the type reading up on scientific research and not just listen to opinions. There are alot of articles on PubMed, Elsevier etc, if you have access to those.
DL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
Yes, and with exercise lost about 45 pounds from July-November 2011 and have kept it off. Still have a little ways to go (lately a foot injury has kept me from exercising) but I plan to reach my goal weight by the end of the summer and will probably stay with paleo for the rest of my life.
A couple common misconceptions: calorie restriction has little to do with the results. I sometimes eat 3000+ calories a day, 40-50% of which are fat. It's actually one of the great benefits of the diet for people like me who like to eat - no calorie restriction is required as long as you stick strictly to paleo foods. I also went from high LDL and total cholesterol, and borderline high blood pressure, to normal cholesterol and blood pressure. My doctor couldn't be happier.
Going out to eat is not a problem if you're dedicated. You can get pretty paleo meals just about anywhere. Most places have grilled chicken salads, and you can get oil and vinegar dressing and hold the cheese and croutons (or just push them aside). Most types of cuisine will have a grilled chicken, fish, or steak option, and you can get steamed vegetables as a side dish. Even if you have no choice but fast food, you can get two grilled chicken sandwiches and toss the buns. It won't be ideal (the meats probably won't be grass-fed and pastured, and there may be some mildly objectionable ingredients in sauces) but as long as you stick with the basic concept you'll be fine. Lots of restaurants now are going to locally-sourced natural foods, and generally those types of places have lots of paleo-friendly options. There are even paleo restaurants now; I live near one in my city.
It can be expensive but there are ways to reduce cost. You can order grass-fed meat online in bulk if you have decent freezer storage space. Google to see if you have a local CSA in your area, which will deliver locally raised meat every month and/or more frequent deliveries of locally grown produce, and you can save money by buying straight from the farm. It's probably not workable on a 3 packs of ramen a day budget, but if you have discretionary income there are worse things to spend money on than high-quality, healthy natural foods.
NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7992 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2967 times:
The only diet I believe in is my own:
- Little meat and dairy products
- Little to no processed foods
- Maintain a typical Omega-3 to Omega-6 profile of 1:4 (and often better)
- Lots of veggies, fruits and water (and ahem: coffee )
Shop at farmer's markets whenever possible instead of supermarkets.
The only nutritional supplement would be vit-D3 capsules from mid October to mid March (1,000 or 2,000 i.u. daily).
I do not count calories (BMI: 23), and now and then I do sin, eat something totally unhealthy like a good pizza and enjoy it tremendously. I find that important! There are plenty of religions, eating shouldn't be another one.
My doc is either happy or bored when I come for a check-up, because my blood pressure and values are good to very good, and I don't even exercise a lot. This is the way it should be, so why would I change my diet?
Then logically this likely wouldn't be true following evolutionary principles. The dogmatics in paleo will tell you that starches such as potato, sweet potato and pumpkin are from the devil however paleo is about self experiment. If you are trying to lose weight it is probably not the best idea to eat loads of carbs and I think this is how this notion creeped in.
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 5): 3) It's completely impractical. You can't eat out and have to prepare all your meals in advance.
Never been to a restaurant that will serve you a salad with olive oil dressing? What about a burger joint where you can take the bun off? I cook minutes in advance. I decide I'm hungry, see what's in the fridge and get cooking.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7): What is important, according to the Paleo folks, isn't red meat, but how that meat was raised.
This is hardly true. Only a crazy person will tell you to pay for grass fed beef while you can barely afford to keep the heat on. It is more, if you have the option and can afford it, do it. If someone has an infection and you only have/can afford a lower quality antibiotic will you tell them to not take it just because there exists something better?
You listed yourself some of the reasons why grassfed is better. Buy it if you can, get normal stuff if you can't.
What a delightfully paleo(ish) diet you have. What I've found is do what feels right for you. Paleo is all about getting in touch with how your body works, thus there is no 'this is the correct thing, this is bad'. Eat what you feel good eating. I love eating potatoes, gave them up for about a year but started reading a little bit more about what they do, and decided due to the fact I am not overweight I will eat them. I eat plenty of cheese and I drink loads of milk. At the moment I'm drinking about 1-2L of milk a day. Evolution is a work in progress and many people (most of northern European ancestry) have largely evolved to consume cows milk. If it makes you feel bloated and sick, don't drink it. If it doesn't and you feel good, go ahead.
What it really boils down to (to steal a quote) is eating real food.
Not sure if you've found it but MarksDailyApple and FreeTheAnimal are great blogs to get started.
RomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2890 times:
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13): Never been to a restaurant that will serve you a salad with olive oil dressing? What about a burger joint where you can take the bun off? I cook minutes in advance. I decide I'm hungry, see what's in the fridge and get cooking.
Yeah i'm out of the house 12 hours every day. I don't really want to spend what little time i do have cooking lunch for work the next days. I'd much prefer to go to the work canteen instead.
Low GI diet works fine for me.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13): Because plain pasta, bread, sugar and salt are so delightfully tasty?
They sure are. Thow in cheese, couscous, rice and potatoes too, oh and lentils, mmmmm....
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 4379 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2785 times:
Ah, here is the paleo thread.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6): Basically what you've done there is Doc is cut out refined sugars and reduced the fat intake, also the refine carbs intake. Pretty basic dieting principles which will certainly work if stuck to.
My diet consists of very little carbohydrates, but lots of fat and proteins. Bacon, pork, cheese, you name it. And I lost a big deal of weight when I only ate bacon with lentils (the classic diet from old Mesopotamia, so it's a meso diet?).
I also exercise a lot (1-3 hours of running each week, plus two hours of volleyball, plus 1 to 2 hours of climbing), and I very rarely feel "hitting the wall" while running, the depletion of the body's carbohydrate stores. A five hour hike without having had a breakfast, and no calorie intake during the hike? No problem. I also do not feel any sort of "hypoglycemia" during the day.
Edit: I also eat very little processed foodstuff, because it's also a lot cheaper and if you know how, cooking "raw materials" is not wasting any of your time. At work, I love to eat bananas, at home I eat apples, and well... lots of potatoes, carrots, onions, tomatoes, bell pepper, white mushrooms.
At home, I only drink artificially sweetened stuff. I take sugar for the coffee when I'm drinking out at a café, and I drink the normal coke in a restaurant. But at home, every sweet stuff I drink does not have any sugar in it.
[Edited 2013-03-20 19:40:48]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
When I had some dietary issues a couple of years ago, I was amazed at how broad of a spectrum of minerals contained in mushrooms when I looked up the nutrition value of foods. Nowadays I'll slice up a good quarter-pound of them to go with a steak or chicken breast, or quarter a bunch of them to sauté for adding to a vegetable dish like creamed spinach. I'd much rather do that than take a vitamin/mineral pill.
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1970 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2734 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter): The premise is that you eat foods that would be similar to those encountered by our paleolithic (pre-agricultural) ancestors. Lean meats (not grain-fed, but free-range grass-fed), fish, fruits, and vegetables in unlimited quantities. No dairy, no grains or grain-like seeds (like quinoa), no refined sugar, no processed foods, no starches (like potatoes), no added salt.
Doc...granted I'm probably the last person on the planet who should be giving diet advice, but from a medical point of view, don't dairy and grains play a pretty important role in our overall health?
I know you're a physician, but let me offer this food-for-thought. Two years ago, I broke my ankle (a trimalleolar fracture). Among the list of advice I was given by my surgeon was to drink a lot of milk for calcium to strengthen the bone. That wasn't an issue, because I am a huge milk drinker (I can go through a gallon in a day or two). After about a year and a second surgery to remove some screws that were no longer needed, my ankle was "as good as it'll ever get."
flyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 4379 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2705 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 19): I know you're a physician, but let me offer this food-for-thought. Two years ago, I broke my ankle (a trimalleolar fracture). Among the list of advice I was given by my surgeon was to drink a lot of milk for calcium to strengthen the bone. That wasn't an issue, because I am a huge milk drinker (I can go through a gallon in a day or two). After about a year and a second surgery to remove some screws that were no longer needed, my ankle was "as good as it'll ever get."
Reminds me of my grandma. She often suffered from stomach ache, and she drank much and much of milk to fight the burning sensation. Now she's 82 and all the osteoporosis indicaters remain perfect.
Quoting Airstud (Reply 18): Is there scientific evidence that there weren't no fatsoes among the pre-aggies?
Pretty surely no fatsoes. Gathering or hunting food meant exercise. And lots of. And more importantly, you easily ate nothing for one day or two until your tribe killed the next mammoth, capibara, quokka or squirrel.
Just think of a A/C engineer that works for 2 hours on paperwork, 2 hours doing the real work (make the birds fly) and *then* has to spend half a day to gather himself and his family food. This meant hiking, hiking, hiking.
And well, the body does not need any carbohydrates. There's gluconeogenesis for that, and as we can't avoid all carbohydrates anyway, so we can just eat nothing that is *rich* in carbohydrates.
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23605 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2668 times:
Quoting MrChips (Reply 9): ...is still your only true means of losing weight by diet (you've even said it yourself before). Yeah, it might be uncomfortable to feel hungry once in a while, but more often than not it's more of a psychological need to eat than physiological.
It's both. Part of the problem is that fats and starches are not nearly as satiating as proteins. When you get more of your calories from protein, you tend to consume fewer calories overall.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 19): Doc...granted I'm probably the last person on the planet who should be giving diet advice, but from a medical point of view, don't dairy and grains play a pretty important role in our overall health?
That's been the revelation: the answer is NO. Compare a grass-fed free-range cow to a grain-fed feed-lot cow. The grass-fed cow has very little fat around the body and very little fat between the muscles (marbling). The grain-fed cow is covered in a 6-8" layer of fat and and has a lot of fat between the muscles and inside the peritoneum. In other words, the grain-fed cow has the Metabolic Syndrome that afflicts humans. This is because mammals in general do not eat grains. Grains are not natural foods in that they do not exist in the wild. There is no such thing as wild corn or wild wheat; these organisms are the product of selective breeding by humans.
As for dairy, while humans have begun a basic step in evolution to be able to process dairy (lactase production sustained into adulthood), this step has only been taken in a portion of the human population and by no means comprises a complete biochemical solution. Humans are the only mammals to consume dairy outside of infancy and our biochemical pathways in our livers and muscles really aren't optimized for this. Dairy is loaded with fat and sugar, while the protein content is relatively low. Most of the "milk is good for you" line is dairy industry advertisement. Until contact with the West, pretty much the whole of China did not consume dairy (they tend to be lactose intolerant) and yet the formed a massive empire with a long history. So clearly, dairy is not essential to human existence.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 13): This is hardly true. Only a crazy person will tell you to pay for grass fed beef while you can barely afford to keep the heat on.
It's a big problem with the diet. But then you don't buy beef. You buy chicken and fish.
I experienced a powerful revelation a few days ago. I'd only been on the diet for a day or two and after coming home hungry, I had a small handful of almonds and thus killed my appetite. So after making dinner, I just sat down with a bowl of salad and ate that.
Well, we were watching TV a bit later on and an Arby's commercial came on for their Reuben sandwich.
So we have rye bread (trafe), corned beef (trafe because it's processed), saurkraut (trafe because it's pickled), and cheese (trafe). In that instant, I realized that I could have eaten two of those delicious, salty, greasy, starchy sandwiches (not to mention a soda and a huge side of fries) in about ten bites total had someone put them down in front of me and I wasn't even hungry!.
And at that point the entire obesity problem in the Western world started to make sense to me.
As for me, I've been an adherent for four days now and my pants are already a bit looser and someone at work noticed that my face seemed thinner. It's probably mostly water retention from the decreased sodium load, but the way I feel has been much more impressive. I'm clear-headed, can exercise harder, I'm less moody, and I have a spring in my step that wasn't there last week. If four days can do this, I can't wait to see what four months does.
So I have a question here. If you are going Paleo, should you consider seasons and migration when consuming?
Much of your vegie's and fruit would only be available seasonably in the olden days, and must be supplemented /replaced by meat in the offseasons. Much of my thoughts around Paeo, is that at the core, you are eventually left with the Atkins diet Stage 3. In Atkins, Much of Stage 1 and Stage 2 tosses out a lot of consideration for Fruits and Vege's but at Stage 3 you are usually consuming what you really should to get buy with under Paleo.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
: That's not exactly true Doc, wild corn (teosinte) still exists. Growers are even experimenting with cross breeding domesticated corn with teosinte.