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Republican Disarray On Full Display At Cpac  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Interesting article: Republican disarray on full display at CPAC

Overview:

Quote:

In an era when every politician is a robotic follower of message discipline, CPAC was riotously off-message. The chief reason for the thematic disarray was that most prominent Republicans simply do not agree on the long-term message to offer that will help them win presidential elections.

Then lots of talk about how the GOP is out of touch with members of many different demographic groups, and a quote of Sarah Palin taking a swipe at Karl Rove, something once unthinkable.

Then something I think that's been brought up here a few times by our younger members:

Quote:

A telling reflection of the Republican Party’s ideas gap is its Ronald Reagan problem.

At CPAC, virtually every orator felt compelled to reverently invoke the Gipper at least twice – and sometimes three times if the audience’s attention was drifting. It is worth pointing out that Reagan, for all his accomplishments, was last on a ballot in the Orwellian year of 1984.

Yes, when Reagan swept 49 states to win a second term, Paul Ryan wasn’t old enough to drive. Something is wrong when a party’s hero comes from an era when a smart phone was one that had a mechanical answering machine attached.

For those familiar with Boston sports sayings, this is the political equivalent of Rick Patino saying "Larry Bird's not coming through that door" i.e. you gotta play with the players you have.

Interesting that they trotted ol' Mitt out: what were they thinking?

Quote:

Mitt Romney, making his first major public appearance since the Election Day unpleasantness, delivered a speech of such soul-numbing banality that I half expected him to eat up time by reciting the words to “America the Beautiful.”

There were no driving ideas and no revealing personal anecdotes. Just bland Mitt-isms like, “I utterly reject pessimism. We may not have carried on November 7th, but we haven’t lost the country we love. And we have not lost our way.” It is telling that Romney refuses to take any rhetorical risks even now that the active phase of his political career is over.

And that Rick Perry seems to think the way to win is to endorse even more strongly views that the voters have widely rejected:

Quote:

Perry offered the most reassuring argument to partisans refusing to believe the party needs to change. Decrying what he called a “media narrative” suggesting conservative arguments have failed, Perry said “That might be true if Republicans had actually nominated conservative candidates in 2008 and 2012.”

There is an element of truth to Perry’s argument, since neither John McCain (who voted against George W. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts) nor Mitt Romney (remember the Massachusetts health-care plan) are traditional conservatives. Perry’s words also reflect the insistence by many in conservative movement who blame weak candidates for their problems and see no need to adjust their views.

It'd be suicide to put up a "true conservative" in 2018, IMHO.

The writer mentions Rubio as the person who expressed the most compelling vision, and it seems hard to argue that point when his competition was Ryan, Romney, Palin and Perry.

He sums things up quite correctly:

Quote:

Before the Republicans can elect a president, they first need to solve what George H.W. Bush once awkwardly referred to as “the vision thing.”

That big tent has a lot of holes in it, and someone needs to get out the needle and thread instead of the scissors.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2783 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3350 times:
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It's painful as a republican to read anything to do with the party. Even Fox News is having trouble fluffing things up. They are so out of touch it is amazing. They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded. As my generation becomes larger and larger they are going to be in for a world of hurt. They need to start appealing to younger voters as President Obama did in 2008. Use social media more, become pro gay marriage, stop the blocking of everything the democrats do. They need to reinvent themselves and quick. They ultimately just need to get over Ronald Reagan. Listen, I think he is the man. He's a personal hero of mine. But so much has changed since Reagan was around. The cold war is gone, technology rules the world, and we are burning through more money on a daily basis than ever before. Most of my friends (who are all of voting age) weren't even alive when he was President. Time to move on, become younger and fresher, and get back in the white house. I liked Paul Ryan. He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

   

This is my face right now.

[Edited 2013-03-19 13:39:46]


Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
Time to move on, become younger and fresher, and get back in the white house.

All good things, but not likely to happen if they can't fix "that vision thing".

The GOP seems suited to a system where there's lots of independent parties and a coalition is formed. It seems there's so many splinter groups who think of themselves of "X" first, Republican second (and fill in the blank for "X").

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
I liked Paul Ryan.

I also did, but his main strength is the budget area, which is something next to impossible to solve, and something that doesn't generate the interest it should. I liked the fact that before being selected VP, he was ready/willing/able to discuss the budget, but the first thing Mitt's campaign said was that they weren't bound to following Ryan's approaches and then they stopped talking about the budget because in general it's a tough area to make progress in and easy area to negatively inflame those impacted by cuts.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.

In the case of the GOP, they seem to be missing both the right candidate and the right message and don't seem to be on the track to find either.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded.

And be a RINO? Everything will be fine, repeal the 15th, 19th and 26th Amendments!

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
technology rules the world,

What's wrong with GOP technology?




Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
It'd be suicide to put up a "true conservative" in 2018, IMHO.

No, that's what the left wants us to believe.

Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Fact: When you tell the same people generic questions like "do you have a more favorable view of Republicans or Democrats", or even if told that their policy vote mirrored the Republican platform, people jump off the bus.

Let's face it, the problem is not conservatives. Most people want a conservative/libertarian government. Polls tend to show that very clearly (those polls that go into more depth than superficial likability). But they don't think that the Republicans can deliver the goods. Easy to understand when you have a lot of Republicans who seem to off nothing more than Democrat Lite. Just a little less spending, a little less taxes, and a little less corruption.

I want an unabashed conservative/libertarian party that runs on a platform of having a policy goal of achieving 50% unemployment in the Washington DC area, as he cuts through buraucrats. The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6575 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3259 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3244 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Right, but that puts them in the "fiscal conservative" camp, which is a small splinter of what Republicanism is.

And many can argue via example that the GOP is *not* fiscally conservative.

Every recent time they've had power they've massively increased government spending, mostly on the military side.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.

Libertarianism is far, far, from Republicanism.

The most common definition of Libertarianism I've heard is "fiscally conservative, socially liberal".

The GOP is not socially liberal.

You also may have noticed that the Libertarian Party has gotten zilch in terms of election results.

To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative, but the Lib Party is just too extreme, saying they'd cut many popular programs and change many policies immediately. It may appeal to the hard cores, but it'll never fly with the main stream.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5499 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded.

And be a RINO?

I wish that the idiot is Canada had not used the word "Rhino" for a silly political party up there because I would LOVE for some one to start a "RINO/Rhino" type named party that is fiscally conservative and socially liberal and believed in compromise and negotiation and did not believe that there is only one way to pay the debt down, etc. I have had to become quite OK with being called a RINO and understand that those that "call you names" are just trying to bully you into either leaving or changing your view. And I am conformable standing by my positions and arguing for them and letting the schoolyard name calling go by.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I want an unabashed conservative/libertarian party that runs on a platform of having a policy goal of achieving 50% unemployment in the Washington DC area, as he cuts through buraucrats. The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.

As long as they can negotiate effectively, work backroom deals, and compromise appropriately, then sure, put one up.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
And many can argue via example that the GOP is *not* fiscally conservative.

It isn't. And "conservative" and Republican" are not the same thing, personally I would much prefer a party and leaders that are "fiscally responsible" versus the "fiscally conservative" crap that is currently contributing to the mess. Manage your budget with the tools available, pay your bills, pay down your debt (you do not need to eliminate it completely or immediately) and do what is needed to ensure the health and survival of the nation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative,

  

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative, but the Lib Party is just too extreme, saying they'd cut many popular programs and change many policies immediately. It may appeal to the hard cores, but it'll never fly with the main stream.

This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them. To get small government there has to be some agreement on what to axe. Until then it's just a fantasy which as you say is borne out by the libertarians' election results.

The GOP will recover though. People thought the Tories were doomed when they were wheeling out Michael Howard as leader in the UK, and now they're back in power, albeit only just. So much in the end revolves around having the right candidate, and one will inevitably come along. There may even be an election cycle where no old white men feel the need to let people know their views on rape!

I certainly hope they do recover though. An effective opposition is always important in a democracy, no matter how much you disagree with them.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5499 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Let's face it, the problem is not conservatives. Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them. To get small government there has to be some agreement on what to axe. Until then it's just a fantasy which as you say is borne out by the libertarians' election results.

I think a very important thing to determine is what exactly to people mean by "conservative"? What does "conservative mean? What do people internally think of and mean when they say "conservative"?

It is obvious that there are many different meanings and interpretations for the title and word "conservative". And it is not Republican's alone that get to claim it but they act like they are and are the arbiter of the word/title. I am fiscally conservative and for me one of the things it means is to not enter into debt without the ability and the will to make the payments. It doesn't mean living on the cheap, it doesn't mean threatening to not pay my bills, it doesn't mean saying "but my wife created that debt, I didn't agree with it".

Tugg

[Edited 2013-03-19 16:03:39]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
And be a RINO? Everything will be fine, repeal the 15th, 19th and 26th Amendments!

24th Ammendment too?



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
I am fiscally conservative and for me one of the things it means is to not enter into debt without the ability and the will to make the payments. It doesn't mean living on the cheap, it doesn't mean threatening to not pay my bills, it doesn't mean saying "but my wife created that debt, I didn't agree with it".

Good point. I usually hate home/government comparisons, but in this case it is apt. I earn a lot and spend a lot. I always pay my bills. Am I fiscally conservative? Probably not. but I am fiscally responsible.

If a government spends a huge quantity on services but gets good value for money and covers its outlay with sufficient income, they are being fiscally responsible. But I don't think most Tea Party activists would consider that acceptable, even if it is sustainable. Similarly you could have tiny government which spends almost nothing, but what it does spend is wasteful, and it taxes even less.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
I certainly hope they do recover though. An effective opposition is always important in a democracy, no matter how much you disagree with them.

I agree, when they regain their sanity on the "right" and stop protecting the wealthy. When they realize that the majority of people are not wealthy, and resent the 1% who scoff up wealth through tax breaks and laws written to protect the special people, then Democracy, and the LOYAL OPPOSITION will be back to where it belongs, protecting all the people, not a special few.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2783 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3126 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
All good things, but not likely to happen if they can't fix "that vision thing".

The GOP seems suited to a system where there's lots of independent parties and a coalition is formed. It seems there's so many splinter groups who think of themselves of "X" first, Republican second (and fill in the blank for "X").

That's a pretty good point. I never really thought of it that way. There allegiances are not always with the party.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.

I don't think anyone would consider Romney very moderate. He's a conservative through and through. He was the safe candidate out of all the primary runners for sure. But I have to imagine the republicans had better candidates than that.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
I agree, when they regain their sanity on the "right" and stop protecting the wealthy. When they realize that the majority of people are not wealthy

I never really understood the point that all the republicans do is protect the wealthy. Mitt Romney got nearly 61 million votes in the last election. With many of his electoral college ballots coming from states that generally would not be considered wealthy. Why would people with an average or below average income vote for someone who doesn't represent them properly? Because unless there are 61 million millionaires now, something isn't right. People are voting based on who they think will do the best job and represent their values.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8871 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
I never really understood the point that all the republicans do is protect the wealthy. Mitt Romney got nearly 61 million votes in the last election. With many of his electoral college ballots coming from states that generally would not be considered wealthy. Why would people with an average or below average income vote for someone who doesn't represent them properly? Because unless there are 61 million millionaires now, something isn't right. People are voting based on who they think will do the best job and represent their values.
Pat

You have touched on the great mystery about that subject. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone votes for those who are out to screw them over, whether Democrat or Republican. Now as for the Wealthy and the Republicans getting votes from people who live in poor states, and poorly paid people voting for the likes of Romney is something that I cannot understand. This is something that is a peculiar thing to me. It seems a regional thing to some extent. The majority of those 61 million votes certainly came from regular people who enjoy no perks, no loopholes that are so valuable to the wealthy, yet they vote for them to get more. I certainly do not have a great respect for them identifying with the very people who take advantage of them by manipulating the system to their advantage. Some people get screwed over and their ideology keeps them coming back for more screwing over. This is the great mystery to me.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13184 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
The GOP will recover though. People thought the Tories were doomed when they were wheeling out Michael Howard as leader in the UK

They might have has some links in the past but I'd not put the British Conservatives anywhere remotely in the same camp as the Republicans of more recent times.
Nearest equivalent? Some say a mix of UKIP and the BNP but maybe the Monster Raving Loony Party is more apt.
At least as a description of the GOP activist 'base'.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

That question is about details of a previously decided policy question. It assumes that the person answering the question has already agreed with the Republican Party position that deficits while a Democrat is president are bad, and deficitys while a Republican is president are good.

A more unbaised question is: "Is the deficit an important concern/issue?"

I receive national and state GOP questionaires frequently. And every question on them is framed to ensure the 'correct' response is reached.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?

Actually I believe those and the economy in general, were not the issues focused upon by the Romney campaign, the Republican Party and FoxNews in October leading up to the election. In mid-September they abandoned the economy, the deficit, Obama's poor leadership on those - and focused everything on Benghazi.

They took the voters eyes off a winning issue, and focused on a side concern.



Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them.

The key point.

Everyone wants someone ELSE to cut what they receive from the government, not what the 'voter' wants to receive.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
The GOP will recover though.

I wonder.

I constantly see statements like some at CPAC and some on this thread, and other threads on this forum that focus on issues/ positions which are of concern for an increasingly smaller minority of Americans.

Like it or not, the true less government, smaller taxes, smaller spending, send all the illegals home 'conservative' is not the thought process of the majority of American voters.

They try to hide the truth with fictions about voter fraud, turnout, etc - but the truth is their message is running hundreds of thousand of voters who agree with the values of family, responsibility, working to get ahead away from voting Republican.

As the highly vocal fraction of that Republican minority who identify themselves as Tea Party becomes more obstructionist, I fear the Republican Party may fracture.

The Tea Party will become a true political party, with a minor position in government.

A new conservative party will emerge, which might use the GOP name.

The good thing about such a fracture is that the many people who vote Democratic in defense might well move toward the Liberitarian postion. That party might become a real force in the future.

[Edited 2013-03-19 18:17:31]

User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3852 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?

Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 11):
24th Ammendment too?

Yeah that too!



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
They might have has some links in the past but I'd not put the British Conservatives anywhere remotely in the same camp as the Republicans of more recent times.

Politically, yes. But I was really comparing how far they dropped (or appeared to have dropped) and then recovered. I heard the same predictions of doom for the Tories then, and yet they survived. People have short memories.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
They took the voters eyes off a winning issue, and focused on a side concern.

Completely agree with this. Benghazi was the worst possible issue to focus on because nobody gives a crap. Ditto all the other so called "scandals" (ACORN, Solyndra etc). If you're an opposition party you have to run a positive campaign. Negative campaigning only works if you're the incumbent IMO (as the Dems showed in November). But that's a strategy error, not something fundamentally wrong with the GOP as a political force in my opinion.

All the GOP needs is for a few of the more extreme new batch of Tea Party favorites to be voted out (which isn't impossible given the gradual shift of the country towards more socially liberal views) and I think you'll find a lot of the more "bendy" Republicans will shift back to the center too. If they have a charismatic leader and the Dems put up somebody awful (which again is hardly unheard of) then they will be back. It's way too soon to be writing them off.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

The Republicans are not is as much disarray as some of them as well as the Liberals/left of centers think. The Republicans control a clear majority of States' Governorships, other top State voted positions, Judges, legislatures as well suburban and rural county or local governments. The Republicans control the clear majority of the Congress and only a few members short in the Senate. They didn't lose by much in the Presidential election and that loss was more about Romney's terrible business history and too many dumb statements. They still overall agree with not raising taxes, cutting spending on most social programs but raising spending for police, spying, farmers/ranchers and the Military, reducing government regulation on business, gutting labor rights but increasing it on personal lives (abortion, civil rights, GLTB rights, medical rights). They also generally agree with very strong policies on Immigrants and those that are here illegally.

So, what are the problems with the party? To me the struggle is over WHO is in power, not so much as what they generally believe in. The 'Tea Party' and conservative side has put out too many outrageous persons, pushing extreme ideas as to taxes, government spending, policies - especially 'Obamacare - and government regulations from guns to religion. A number of Tea Party officials displaced some reasoned and more moderate-centrist experience officials (especially in the Congress) and they now hold the rest of the party and many Democrats in their threatening tactics that appeal to middle and upper middle class taxpayers and money from pro-corporate and rich voters. The 'Tea Party' don't want to compromise on their overall views, believe they are supported by a majority of Americans outside of urban centers and many White males. They despise the Karl Rove's who support CINO's (Conservatives in Name Only) and other 'professionals', they rather go with their 'seat of their pants' ideas that are simple and sell well to many voters.

Eventually the Republicans will go too far to the right, they will start to lose when people realize that government cuts in spending and regulation have gone too far, they see the rich keep getting richer still and the working class sees themselves screwed.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7870 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Well I hope they recover, I'd rather have 2 mediocre parties instead of a mediocre party and a bad party...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11574 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

What I see is the right keeps playing the same song over and over again hoping more and more people go along. They also scream and shout that any other ideas are wrong and bad without giving them a try. People are sick of the "no compromise" stand from the right.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
Eventually the Republicans will go too far to the right, they will start to lose when people realize that government cuts in spending and regulation have gone too far, they see the rich keep getting richer still and the working class sees themselves screwed.

I thought that process had occurred already; short of black uniforms, how far more right can they realistically go? They were the party of fiscal responsibility, yet it was Clinton who did a lot to repair the national finances after Bush I, only for Bush II to arse them up monumentally thanks to his Iraq war.

The Republicans may not be able to see it - or willing to recognise it - but the egregious nature of Bush II's eight years, on almost every front, helped to colour the political views of the younger generation, and not just those of minorities. And four years on from that disaster, they still get the same old, tired men, selling something tired and full of hate and hostility, like a group of old army comrades angrily banging their sticks and calling for hanging and flogging. Their drive to change is driven not by recognition of a changing society and the changing reality of that society, but purely by their need to get elected; they're not seeing the root of their problem. As much as many of us might enjoy the spectacle of the Republican party on a downward spiral, this is not the way to go.

It comes down to basic values and among the most fundamental of these is that in a modern democracy, there is separation of Church and State; they may not like it, but their first duty is to the society, not a particular Church. I think this will be a huge problem for them. I think that another is/will continue to be that they are too beholden to corporate America to develop a coherent series of policies in key areas, which are attractive to ordinary salaried workers. They have so much to prove and such massive changes to make and none of what is happening now suggests that they are within a country mile of recognising the reality of their situation, let alone doing anything about it; they can see the areas of red and yellow on their map displays, yet they are flying right into it, regardless.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them.

Which is another problem the GOP uniquely faces: they are the ones saying spending must be reduced which gives the Dems the political high ground of being able to say, OK, what are you going to cut? This is what leads to things like the sequester, which IMHO puts the mostly GOP congress in a bad light, and seems to particularly upset the defense contractors and the GOP pro-military base.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
Benghazi was the worst possible issue to focus on because nobody gives a crap.

I think people cared up front, but once it became clear it was being used by the GOP to score political points people in general tuned it out. Interesting how McCain is still out there banging the drum. Seems he feels the need to try to legitimize the GOP's disproportional interest in the issue. Good luck with that, John.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
If they have a charismatic leader and the Dems put up somebody awful (which again is hardly unheard of) then they will be back.

Certainly a possibility, but still, a lot of trends seem to be working against them.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
It's way too soon to be writing them off.

I think the article or at least its headline set the right tone. Clearly there is disarray now and some demographic trends that are going to hurt, but that doesn't mean to me that they get written off.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
They still overall agree with not raising taxes, cutting spending on most social programs but raising spending for police, spying, farmers/ranchers and the Military, reducing government regulation on business, gutting labor rights but increasing it on personal lives (abortion, civil rights, GLTB rights, medical rights). They also generally agree with very strong policies on Immigrants and those that are here illegally.

Good summation and I'd add in the mostly common position on guns, which you did later. I'm saying that because like it or not, the mostly Dem push on guns is giving the GOP a rallying point. To me it's not the greatest of rallying points because it emphasizes that the GOP is the party of angry aging white men, but it's still something to rally around.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
So, what are the problems with the party? To me the struggle is over WHO is in power, not so much as what they generally believe in.

I suppose, but even that issue seems far from resolution, and doesn't seem to address the big problem that the general belief is losing favor, at least nationally.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
What I see is the right keeps playing the same song over and over again hoping more and more people go along. They also scream and shout that any other ideas are wrong and bad without giving them a try.

Another problem along the same lines is they impose litmus tests on their own members. For instance, Romney is a Mormon which means he's a Christian, but apparently not Christian enough for many Conservatives. Another example is the use of the term RINO, which clearly is a litmus test on who is Republican enough. They seem to excel at throwing people out of the Big Tent, which means the tent is getting more and more empty.

They seem to have this fear of the Apocalypse and seem to always be deciding who will be fit enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In the mean time, most of the rest of us are trying to deal with the world as it is and don't feel the need to have our guns stockpiled in preparation for the shootout at the OK Corral if not the End of Days.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 23):
I think that another is/will continue to be that they are too beholden to corporate America to develop a coherent series of policies in key areas, which are attractive to ordinary salaried workers.

IMHO both parties are far too beholden to corporate America. For example, everyone who looks at what is really driving government spending is the cost of health care for its own employees and retirees as well as health care programs such as Medicare, but we can all see that government is being prevented from using many tactics to reduce cost mostly via the lobbying of big med / big pharma.

Another prime example is how little the big Wall Street firms have suffered after dragging the country through the GFC and how the Treasury Department is crammed full with Wall Street alumni.

It's interesting to me to see that while conservatives think of Obama as this extremely liberal guy, their heads would explode if they hung out with some of the hard core liberals I know. They routinely slam Obama on things like the above as well as his handling of Gitmo and his general lack of defense of privacy rights. It's interesting to me that while such fissures exist in the Dem ranks, the GOP can''t take advantage of them because they've already painted Obama as the ultimate leftist liberal commie pinko rat Kenyan.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Post contains links CalebWilliams : Isn't he a Muslim too? http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama's_Religion
26 seb146 : Interesting.... Voter fraud? How so? The people who stood in line for hours and hours to vote or the exactly zero people who cast a ballot in someone
27 Post contains images CalebWilliams : I can't believe you fell for that.
28 par13del : Ok, the govt. does spend a huge quantity on services, everyone complains about their service so the value for the money is not there, since they are
29 Post contains images Revelation : Good point. I should have gone with "the ultimate leftist liberal commie pinko rat Kenyan Muslim closeted jihadi"!
30 zckls04 : This isn't really a discussion about whether the current government is doing its job- more of a philosophical aside on the concept of fiscal conserva
31 Confuscius : BTW, the RNC Chairman's name is Reince Priebus, which sounds like Rinse Pubis. ...and if you remove the vowels it spells RNC PR BS. .
32 bhill : All because of the 2010 midterms...... Don't vote when you are pissed...at ANYTHING....take a deep breath, put the bottle down and sleep on it.
33 n229nw : Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative s
34 BN747 : Precisely, and it has worked for decades.. people are easily manipulated into the incredible ignorance of voting against their own interest. The what
35 Post contains images Ken777 : Until you tell them that they are going to cut back on Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. And the Veterans are in danger also. I strongly Paul
36 Post contains images jetblueguy22 : . Wow.... Glad to hear all who vote for republicans are dumb people who are easily manipulated. Has nothing to do with values or belief... I don't fe
37 BN747 : The lobbyist are getting more than their money's worth of government... if the American people don't step up demand attention to their interest - and
38 Post contains images windy95 : Is that not the whole plane of the Democrat and Republican party masterrmind's? To keep us divided by race, sex and class and fighting amongst oursel
39 Revelation : I doubt it's the "whole plane". Clearly people who gravitate to politics largely enjoy the power that comes with the office, and clearly to me at lea
40 seb146 : That is a vocal minority within the Republican party who use that to manipulate voters. It worked for a while. Starting in September, 2001, we were t
41 Post contains images helvknight : You forgot Chemtrails. [Edited 2013-03-21 10:09:39]
42 DocLightning : So why not stop being a Republican? If the party has moved in a direction that no longer represents you, leave it. There are two outcomes: #1) The GO
43 zckls04 : That's true, but remember that the more extreme somebody's views are, the louder they tend to rant about them. It does rather distort things. The lef
44 jetblueguy22 : Because I just can't find a democrat I can associate with. I'm originally from CT. We have Blumenthol and Chris Murphy. They're just holier than thou
45 tugger : As far as I can tell what California has now is by far the most fair process that I have seen in a long time. It has absolutely reduced the gerrymand
46 Post contains images n229nw : I didn't say that everyone who votes Republican is dumb (wrong and dumb aren't the same thing ). I did say that the answer to the "mystery" of why th
47 Ken777 : That's not the point and I'm sure you know it. Lots of very bright folks in the GOP, especially the very wealthy GOP voters. The GOP does, however, h
48 BN747 : Pat, piece of advice. Rise above that because people of all political, social and every other persuasion will actually and intentionally pull the 'I'
49 Post contains links Confuscius : Rather than dwell on past failures, the GOP should address the five most important issues among conservatives. 1. Benghazi 2. Benghazi 3. Benghazi 4.
50 jetblueguy22 : Well it doesn't necessarily make them wrong either. It's all how you view the world. If people still believe that they are more ignorant than uneduca
51 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : LOL are they still going on about that? I thought they learned that wasn't a very good road to go down in order to make Democrats look bad
52 seb146 : Exactly. The right no longer says "Vote for us because...." but instead say "Don't vote for them because... so vote for us."
53 DocLightning : Not happening any time soon. Even if the grass roots of the party is no longer on-board with the anti-gay, the leaders of the party (the "Old White M
54 LMP737 : Even though Reagan is hero worshiped by may current republicans the truth is that he would probably not meet the current litmus test for being a "goo
55 OzGlobal : I assume this is satire of Glen Beck cuckoo land: 1. Voter fraud is a non-existent problem according to the independent and non-partisan agencies ove
56 jetblueguy22 : I completely agree that it won't happen. The fact is though they need to get younger, that is the best way to get the younger demographic. Well that
57 Post contains links seb146 : Wasn't Bush I in office during Andrew? Everyone said he did a remarkable job with that storm. I think it is all in how a president relates to people.
58 jetblueguy22 : I don't think it is more to do with the time the storm came. It was close to the election and still fresh in many people's minds. I couldn't comment
59 DocLightning : Florida was a fantastic example. Florida's GOP-dominated state government ensured that there was 1) minimal opportunity to vote early or by mail-in,
60 tugger : Doc, is there a source on this? Tugg
61 jetblueguy22 : Thanks for the reply Doc. But isn't it law that everyone must have an opportunity to go out and vote? Couldn't these people who work multiple jobs lea
62 wingman : The repubs are in a world of pure Catch 22 hurt right now. Only those candidates that appeal to the fringe white extremist branches can get past the p
63 zckls04 : In practice that's rarely the case. For low skilled jobs the employer can make it very clear that's not an option, or that there will be negative con
64 zckls04 : There is a critical distinction. The argument from the anti-ID side is not that there is no voter fraud (clearly there is tons), but that there is li
65 jetblueguy22 : I can't understand how it got that bad. Certainly not every republican is extreme right. They're scaring the base that is more to the center and maki
66 gatorman96 : Here's a tip: run away from people like Trump and Palin. Run far, far away! I'm embarrassed that the GOP would actually choose these people to represe
67 LMP737 : Can you imagine if he said this at the GOP convention 2012? "We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy
68 LMP737 : I's kind of hard nowadays to know who is in charge of the Republican Party. If the kooks were really in charge Mitt Romney would not have been nomina
69 FlyPNS1 : But even a far right candidate can't do that because the largest employer of government bureaucrats is the Department of Defense...that sacred entity
70 DocLightning : The point is that voter fraud IS rare. What the GOP is doing is trying to disenfranchise traditionally DNC-leaning demographics and that is undemocra
71 Post contains images CPH-R : They'd stall the second they saw that he used to head the Screen Actors Guild
72 GDB : Before the election, Sarah Silverman did a video to encourage (in her own inimitable style) people to register and to avoid the barriers some states
73 DocLightning : He was the most moderate, but was forced to say ridiculous things during the campaign by that same leadership. They're crazy, but not stupid. They kn
74 seb146 : Problem is: these two are the most recognizable and favorable in the right-wing world. I want the voters to come out. Period. My problem is the right
75 flyguy89 : I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have
76 seb146 : What I think is funny is a small group of people bought a political party and branded themselves as "Christian" and "American" and people believe it
77 tugger : As a Republican, I am not concerned about the left and what Dems think, why are you? I am fully worried at the failures of the Republican Party and i
78 flyguy89 : Of course you do. I am not, hence my amusement.[Edited 2013-03-26 22:44:59]
79 Revelation : Actually what the topic is about is the GOP disarray on show at CPAC. Care to read the linked article in the thread starter and tell us what you thin
80 CalebWilliams : Exactly. If 100 % of eligible voters voted and it came back Republican, I'd be willing to except it. During past elections, I've encouraged others to
81 bhill : What I found so funny is all the tons of monies...especially PAC monies that the GOP spent and got sooo little to show for it. And the look on Karl Ro
82 Aesma : I really don't like the idea of cutting the people into groups and trying to appeal to each with one or two issues. To me that's the opposite of what
83 seb146 : That would be fine, if it was of their own free will. But, with re-districting heavily in favor of the right, that "free will" is out the window.
84 CalebWilliams : I was referring to the popular outcome in a hypothetical situation with no Electoral College.
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