Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Republican Disarray On Full Display At Cpac  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 9 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3585 times:

Interesting article: Republican disarray on full display at CPAC

Overview:

Quote:

In an era when every politician is a robotic follower of message discipline, CPAC was riotously off-message. The chief reason for the thematic disarray was that most prominent Republicans simply do not agree on the long-term message to offer that will help them win presidential elections.

Then lots of talk about how the GOP is out of touch with members of many different demographic groups, and a quote of Sarah Palin taking a swipe at Karl Rove, something once unthinkable.

Then something I think that's been brought up here a few times by our younger members:

Quote:

A telling reflection of the Republican Party’s ideas gap is its Ronald Reagan problem.

At CPAC, virtually every orator felt compelled to reverently invoke the Gipper at least twice – and sometimes three times if the audience’s attention was drifting. It is worth pointing out that Reagan, for all his accomplishments, was last on a ballot in the Orwellian year of 1984.

Yes, when Reagan swept 49 states to win a second term, Paul Ryan wasn’t old enough to drive. Something is wrong when a party’s hero comes from an era when a smart phone was one that had a mechanical answering machine attached.

For those familiar with Boston sports sayings, this is the political equivalent of Rick Patino saying "Larry Bird's not coming through that door" i.e. you gotta play with the players you have.

Interesting that they trotted ol' Mitt out: what were they thinking?

Quote:

Mitt Romney, making his first major public appearance since the Election Day unpleasantness, delivered a speech of such soul-numbing banality that I half expected him to eat up time by reciting the words to “America the Beautiful.”

There were no driving ideas and no revealing personal anecdotes. Just bland Mitt-isms like, “I utterly reject pessimism. We may not have carried on November 7th, but we haven’t lost the country we love. And we have not lost our way.” It is telling that Romney refuses to take any rhetorical risks even now that the active phase of his political career is over.

And that Rick Perry seems to think the way to win is to endorse even more strongly views that the voters have widely rejected:

Quote:

Perry offered the most reassuring argument to partisans refusing to believe the party needs to change. Decrying what he called a “media narrative” suggesting conservative arguments have failed, Perry said “That might be true if Republicans had actually nominated conservative candidates in 2008 and 2012.”

There is an element of truth to Perry’s argument, since neither John McCain (who voted against George W. Bush’s 2001 tax cuts) nor Mitt Romney (remember the Massachusetts health-care plan) are traditional conservatives. Perry’s words also reflect the insistence by many in conservative movement who blame weak candidates for their problems and see no need to adjust their views.

It'd be suicide to put up a "true conservative" in 2018, IMHO.

The writer mentions Rubio as the person who expressed the most compelling vision, and it seems hard to argue that point when his competition was Ryan, Romney, Palin and Perry.

He sums things up quite correctly:

Quote:

Before the Republicans can elect a president, they first need to solve what George H.W. Bush once awkwardly referred to as “the vision thing.”

That big tent has a lot of holes in it, and someone needs to get out the needle and thread instead of the scissors.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
84 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days ago) and read 3556 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

It's painful as a republican to read anything to do with the party. Even Fox News is having trouble fluffing things up. They are so out of touch it is amazing. They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded. As my generation becomes larger and larger they are going to be in for a world of hurt. They need to start appealing to younger voters as President Obama did in 2008. Use social media more, become pro gay marriage, stop the blocking of everything the democrats do. They need to reinvent themselves and quick. They ultimately just need to get over Ronald Reagan. Listen, I think he is the man. He's a personal hero of mine. But so much has changed since Reagan was around. The cold war is gone, technology rules the world, and we are burning through more money on a daily basis than ever before. Most of my friends (who are all of voting age) weren't even alive when he was President. Time to move on, become younger and fresher, and get back in the white house. I liked Paul Ryan. He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 9 months 5 days ago) and read 3553 times:

   

This is my face right now.

[Edited 2013-03-19 13:39:46]


Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
Time to move on, become younger and fresher, and get back in the white house.

All good things, but not likely to happen if they can't fix "that vision thing".

The GOP seems suited to a system where there's lots of independent parties and a coalition is formed. It seems there's so many splinter groups who think of themselves of "X" first, Republican second (and fill in the blank for "X").

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
I liked Paul Ryan.

I also did, but his main strength is the budget area, which is something next to impossible to solve, and something that doesn't generate the interest it should. I liked the fact that before being selected VP, he was ready/willing/able to discuss the budget, but the first thing Mitt's campaign said was that they weren't bound to following Ryan's approaches and then they stopped talking about the budget because in general it's a tough area to make progress in and easy area to negatively inflame those impacted by cuts.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.

In the case of the GOP, they seem to be missing both the right candidate and the right message and don't seem to be on the track to find either.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded.

And be a RINO? Everything will be fine, repeal the 15th, 19th and 26th Amendments!

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
technology rules the world,

What's wrong with GOP technology?




Ain't I a stinker?
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8952 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
It'd be suicide to put up a "true conservative" in 2018, IMHO.

No, that's what the left wants us to believe.

Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Fact: When you tell the same people generic questions like "do you have a more favorable view of Republicans or Democrats", or even if told that their policy vote mirrored the Republican platform, people jump off the bus.

Let's face it, the problem is not conservatives. Most people want a conservative/libertarian government. Polls tend to show that very clearly (those polls that go into more depth than superficial likability). But they don't think that the Republicans can deliver the goods. Easy to understand when you have a lot of Republicans who seem to off nothing more than Democrat Lite. Just a little less spending, a little less taxes, and a little less corruption.

I want an unabashed conservative/libertarian party that runs on a platform of having a policy goal of achieving 50% unemployment in the Washington DC area, as he cuts through buraucrats. The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6674 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3465 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Right, but that puts them in the "fiscal conservative" camp, which is a small splinter of what Republicanism is.

And many can argue via example that the GOP is *not* fiscally conservative.

Every recent time they've had power they've massively increased government spending, mostly on the military side.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.

Libertarianism is far, far, from Republicanism.

The most common definition of Libertarianism I've heard is "fiscally conservative, socially liberal".

The GOP is not socially liberal.

You also may have noticed that the Libertarian Party has gotten zilch in terms of election results.

To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative, but the Lib Party is just too extreme, saying they'd cut many popular programs and change many policies immediately. It may appeal to the hard cores, but it'll never fly with the main stream.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They need to stop bowing down to the Christian Right, and start being a little more open minded.

And be a RINO?

I wish that the idiot is Canada had not used the word "Rhino" for a silly political party up there because I would LOVE for some one to start a "RINO/Rhino" type named party that is fiscally conservative and socially liberal and believed in compromise and negotiation and did not believe that there is only one way to pay the debt down, etc. I have had to become quite OK with being called a RINO and understand that those that "call you names" are just trying to bully you into either leaving or changing your view. And I am conformable standing by my positions and arguing for them and letting the schoolyard name calling go by.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I want an unabashed conservative/libertarian party that runs on a platform of having a policy goal of achieving 50% unemployment in the Washington DC area, as he cuts through buraucrats. The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.

As long as they can negotiate effectively, work backroom deals, and compromise appropriately, then sure, put one up.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
And many can argue via example that the GOP is *not* fiscally conservative.

It isn't. And "conservative" and Republican" are not the same thing, personally I would much prefer a party and leaders that are "fiscally responsible" versus the "fiscally conservative" crap that is currently contributing to the mess. Manage your budget with the tools available, pay your bills, pay down your debt (you do not need to eliminate it completely or immediately) and do what is needed to ensure the health and survival of the nation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative,

  

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
To me I like the idea of socially liberal and financially conservative, but the Lib Party is just too extreme, saying they'd cut many popular programs and change many policies immediately. It may appeal to the hard cores, but it'll never fly with the main stream.

This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them. To get small government there has to be some agreement on what to axe. Until then it's just a fantasy which as you say is borne out by the libertarians' election results.

The GOP will recover though. People thought the Tories were doomed when they were wheeling out Michael Howard as leader in the UK, and now they're back in power, albeit only just. So much in the end revolves around having the right candidate, and one will inevitably come along. There may even be an election cycle where no old white men feel the need to let people know their views on rape!

I certainly hope they do recover though. An effective opposition is always important in a democracy, no matter how much you disagree with them.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Let's face it, the problem is not conservatives. Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them. To get small government there has to be some agreement on what to axe. Until then it's just a fantasy which as you say is borne out by the libertarians' election results.

I think a very important thing to determine is what exactly to people mean by "conservative"? What does "conservative mean? What do people internally think of and mean when they say "conservative"?

It is obvious that there are many different meanings and interpretations for the title and word "conservative". And it is not Republican's alone that get to claim it but they act like they are and are the arbiter of the word/title. I am fiscally conservative and for me one of the things it means is to not enter into debt without the ability and the will to make the payments. It doesn't mean living on the cheap, it doesn't mean threatening to not pay my bills, it doesn't mean saying "but my wife created that debt, I didn't agree with it".

Tugg

[Edited 2013-03-19 16:03:39]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 4):
And be a RINO? Everything will be fine, repeal the 15th, 19th and 26th Amendments!

24th Ammendment too?



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
I am fiscally conservative and for me one of the things it means is to not enter into debt without the ability and the will to make the payments. It doesn't mean living on the cheap, it doesn't mean threatening to not pay my bills, it doesn't mean saying "but my wife created that debt, I didn't agree with it".

Good point. I usually hate home/government comparisons, but in this case it is apt. I earn a lot and spend a lot. I always pay my bills. Am I fiscally conservative? Probably not. but I am fiscally responsible.

If a government spends a huge quantity on services but gets good value for money and covers its outlay with sufficient income, they are being fiscally responsible. But I don't think most Tea Party activists would consider that acceptable, even if it is sustainable. Similarly you could have tiny government which spends almost nothing, but what it does spend is wasteful, and it taxes even less.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9290 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
I certainly hope they do recover though. An effective opposition is always important in a democracy, no matter how much you disagree with them.

I agree, when they regain their sanity on the "right" and stop protecting the wealthy. When they realize that the majority of people are not wealthy, and resent the 1% who scoff up wealth through tax breaks and laws written to protect the special people, then Democracy, and the LOYAL OPPOSITION will be back to where it belongs, protecting all the people, not a special few.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3332 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
All good things, but not likely to happen if they can't fix "that vision thing".

The GOP seems suited to a system where there's lots of independent parties and a coalition is formed. It seems there's so many splinter groups who think of themselves of "X" first, Republican second (and fill in the blank for "X").

That's a pretty good point. I never really thought of it that way. There allegiances are not always with the party.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.

I don't think anyone would consider Romney very moderate. He's a conservative through and through. He was the safe candidate out of all the primary runners for sure. But I have to imagine the republicans had better candidates than that.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
I agree, when they regain their sanity on the "right" and stop protecting the wealthy. When they realize that the majority of people are not wealthy

I never really understood the point that all the republicans do is protect the wealthy. Mitt Romney got nearly 61 million votes in the last election. With many of his electoral college ballots coming from states that generally would not be considered wealthy. Why would people with an average or below average income vote for someone who doesn't represent them properly? Because unless there are 61 million millionaires now, something isn't right. People are voting based on who they think will do the best job and represent their values.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9290 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
I never really understood the point that all the republicans do is protect the wealthy. Mitt Romney got nearly 61 million votes in the last election. With many of his electoral college ballots coming from states that generally would not be considered wealthy. Why would people with an average or below average income vote for someone who doesn't represent them properly? Because unless there are 61 million millionaires now, something isn't right. People are voting based on who they think will do the best job and represent their values.
Pat

You have touched on the great mystery about that subject. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone votes for those who are out to screw them over, whether Democrat or Republican. Now as for the Wealthy and the Republicans getting votes from people who live in poor states, and poorly paid people voting for the likes of Romney is something that I cannot understand. This is something that is a peculiar thing to me. It seems a regional thing to some extent. The majority of those 61 million votes certainly came from regular people who enjoy no perks, no loopholes that are so valuable to the wealthy, yet they vote for them to get more. I certainly do not have a great respect for them identifying with the very people who take advantage of them by manipulating the system to their advantage. Some people get screwed over and their ideology keeps them coming back for more screwing over. This is the great mystery to me.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
The GOP will recover though. People thought the Tories were doomed when they were wheeling out Michael Howard as leader in the UK

They might have has some links in the past but I'd not put the British Conservatives anywhere remotely in the same camp as the Republicans of more recent times.
Nearest equivalent? Some say a mix of UKIP and the BNP but maybe the Monster Raving Loony Party is more apt.
At least as a description of the GOP activist 'base'.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

That question is about details of a previously decided policy question. It assumes that the person answering the question has already agreed with the Republican Party position that deficits while a Democrat is president are bad, and deficitys while a Republican is president are good.

A more unbaised question is: "Is the deficit an important concern/issue?"

I receive national and state GOP questionaires frequently. And every question on them is framed to ensure the 'correct' response is reached.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?

Actually I believe those and the economy in general, were not the issues focused upon by the Romney campaign, the Republican Party and FoxNews in October leading up to the election. In mid-September they abandoned the economy, the deficit, Obama's poor leadership on those - and focused everything on Benghazi.

They took the voters eyes off a winning issue, and focused on a side concern.



Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them.

The key point.

Everyone wants someone ELSE to cut what they receive from the government, not what the 'voter' wants to receive.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
The GOP will recover though.

I wonder.

I constantly see statements like some at CPAC and some on this thread, and other threads on this forum that focus on issues/ positions which are of concern for an increasingly smaller minority of Americans.

Like it or not, the true less government, smaller taxes, smaller spending, send all the illegals home 'conservative' is not the thought process of the majority of American voters.

They try to hide the truth with fictions about voter fraud, turnout, etc - but the truth is their message is running hundreds of thousand of voters who agree with the values of family, responsibility, working to get ahead away from voting Republican.

As the highly vocal fraction of that Republican minority who identify themselves as Tea Party becomes more obstructionist, I fear the Republican Party may fracture.

The Tea Party will become a true political party, with a minor position in government.

A new conservative party will emerge, which might use the GOP name.

The good thing about such a fracture is that the many people who vote Democratic in defense might well move toward the Liberitarian postion. That party might become a real force in the future.

[Edited 2013-03-19 18:17:31]

User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Is that why Romney won in November?

Those where the issues in November; don't you remember?

Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 11):
24th Ammendment too?

Yeah that too!



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
They might have has some links in the past but I'd not put the British Conservatives anywhere remotely in the same camp as the Republicans of more recent times.

Politically, yes. But I was really comparing how far they dropped (or appeared to have dropped) and then recovered. I heard the same predictions of doom for the Tories then, and yet they survived. People have short memories.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
They took the voters eyes off a winning issue, and focused on a side concern.

Completely agree with this. Benghazi was the worst possible issue to focus on because nobody gives a crap. Ditto all the other so called "scandals" (ACORN, Solyndra etc). If you're an opposition party you have to run a positive campaign. Negative campaigning only works if you're the incumbent IMO (as the Dems showed in November). But that's a strategy error, not something fundamentally wrong with the GOP as a political force in my opinion.

All the GOP needs is for a few of the more extreme new batch of Tea Party favorites to be voted out (which isn't impossible given the gradual shift of the country towards more socially liberal views) and I think you'll find a lot of the more "bendy" Republicans will shift back to the center too. If they have a charismatic leader and the Dems put up somebody awful (which again is hardly unheard of) then they will be back. It's way too soon to be writing them off.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13197 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

The Republicans are not is as much disarray as some of them as well as the Liberals/left of centers think. The Republicans control a clear majority of States' Governorships, other top State voted positions, Judges, legislatures as well suburban and rural county or local governments. The Republicans control the clear majority of the Congress and only a few members short in the Senate. They didn't lose by much in the Presidential election and that loss was more about Romney's terrible business history and too many dumb statements. They still overall agree with not raising taxes, cutting spending on most social programs but raising spending for police, spying, farmers/ranchers and the Military, reducing government regulation on business, gutting labor rights but increasing it on personal lives (abortion, civil rights, GLTB rights, medical rights). They also generally agree with very strong policies on Immigrants and those that are here illegally.

So, what are the problems with the party? To me the struggle is over WHO is in power, not so much as what they generally believe in. The 'Tea Party' and conservative side has put out too many outrageous persons, pushing extreme ideas as to taxes, government spending, policies - especially 'Obamacare - and government regulations from guns to religion. A number of Tea Party officials displaced some reasoned and more moderate-centrist experience officials (especially in the Congress) and they now hold the rest of the party and many Democrats in their threatening tactics that appeal to middle and upper middle class taxpayers and money from pro-corporate and rich voters. The 'Tea Party' don't want to compromise on their overall views, believe they are supported by a majority of Americans outside of urban centers and many White males. They despise the Karl Rove's who support CINO's (Conservatives in Name Only) and other 'professionals', they rather go with their 'seat of their pants' ideas that are simple and sell well to many voters.

Eventually the Republicans will go too far to the right, they will start to lose when people realize that government cuts in spending and regulation have gone too far, they see the rich keep getting richer still and the working class sees themselves screwed.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Well I hope they recover, I'd rather have 2 mediocre parties instead of a mediocre party and a bad party...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

What I see is the right keeps playing the same song over and over again hoping more and more people go along. They also scream and shout that any other ideas are wrong and bad without giving them a try. People are sick of the "no compromise" stand from the right.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12593 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
Eventually the Republicans will go too far to the right, they will start to lose when people realize that government cuts in spending and regulation have gone too far, they see the rich keep getting richer still and the working class sees themselves screwed.

I thought that process had occurred already; short of black uniforms, how far more right can they realistically go? They were the party of fiscal responsibility, yet it was Clinton who did a lot to repair the national finances after Bush I, only for Bush II to arse them up monumentally thanks to his Iraq war.

The Republicans may not be able to see it - or willing to recognise it - but the egregious nature of Bush II's eight years, on almost every front, helped to colour the political views of the younger generation, and not just those of minorities. And four years on from that disaster, they still get the same old, tired men, selling something tired and full of hate and hostility, like a group of old army comrades angrily banging their sticks and calling for hanging and flogging. Their drive to change is driven not by recognition of a changing society and the changing reality of that society, but purely by their need to get elected; they're not seeing the root of their problem. As much as many of us might enjoy the spectacle of the Republican party on a downward spiral, this is not the way to go.

It comes down to basic values and among the most fundamental of these is that in a modern democracy, there is separation of Church and State; they may not like it, but their first duty is to the society, not a particular Church. I think this will be a huge problem for them. I think that another is/will continue to be that they are too beholden to corporate America to develop a coherent series of policies in key areas, which are attractive to ordinary salaried workers. They have so much to prove and such massive changes to make and none of what is happening now suggests that they are within a country mile of recognising the reality of their situation, let alone doing anything about it; they can see the areas of red and yellow on their map displays, yet they are flying right into it, regardless.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
This is the problem- people like the idea of "fiscal conservatism" but don't actually want to give up the programs which benefit them.

Which is another problem the GOP uniquely faces: they are the ones saying spending must be reduced which gives the Dems the political high ground of being able to say, OK, what are you going to cut? This is what leads to things like the sequester, which IMHO puts the mostly GOP congress in a bad light, and seems to particularly upset the defense contractors and the GOP pro-military base.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
Benghazi was the worst possible issue to focus on because nobody gives a crap.

I think people cared up front, but once it became clear it was being used by the GOP to score political points people in general tuned it out. Interesting how McCain is still out there banging the drum. Seems he feels the need to try to legitimize the GOP's disproportional interest in the issue. Good luck with that, John.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
If they have a charismatic leader and the Dems put up somebody awful (which again is hardly unheard of) then they will be back.

Certainly a possibility, but still, a lot of trends seem to be working against them.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 19):
It's way too soon to be writing them off.

I think the article or at least its headline set the right tone. Clearly there is disarray now and some demographic trends that are going to hurt, but that doesn't mean to me that they get written off.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
They still overall agree with not raising taxes, cutting spending on most social programs but raising spending for police, spying, farmers/ranchers and the Military, reducing government regulation on business, gutting labor rights but increasing it on personal lives (abortion, civil rights, GLTB rights, medical rights). They also generally agree with very strong policies on Immigrants and those that are here illegally.

Good summation and I'd add in the mostly common position on guns, which you did later. I'm saying that because like it or not, the mostly Dem push on guns is giving the GOP a rallying point. To me it's not the greatest of rallying points because it emphasizes that the GOP is the party of angry aging white men, but it's still something to rally around.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
So, what are the problems with the party? To me the struggle is over WHO is in power, not so much as what they generally believe in.

I suppose, but even that issue seems far from resolution, and doesn't seem to address the big problem that the general belief is losing favor, at least nationally.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
What I see is the right keeps playing the same song over and over again hoping more and more people go along. They also scream and shout that any other ideas are wrong and bad without giving them a try.

Another problem along the same lines is they impose litmus tests on their own members. For instance, Romney is a Mormon which means he's a Christian, but apparently not Christian enough for many Conservatives. Another example is the use of the term RINO, which clearly is a litmus test on who is Republican enough. They seem to excel at throwing people out of the Big Tent, which means the tent is getting more and more empty.

They seem to have this fear of the Apocalypse and seem to always be deciding who will be fit enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In the mean time, most of the rest of us are trying to deal with the world as it is and don't feel the need to have our guns stockpiled in preparation for the shootout at the OK Corral if not the End of Days.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 23):
I think that another is/will continue to be that they are too beholden to corporate America to develop a coherent series of policies in key areas, which are attractive to ordinary salaried workers.

IMHO both parties are far too beholden to corporate America. For example, everyone who looks at what is really driving government spending is the cost of health care for its own employees and retirees as well as health care programs such as Medicare, but we can all see that government is being prevented from using many tactics to reduce cost mostly via the lobbying of big med / big pharma.

Another prime example is how little the big Wall Street firms have suffered after dragging the country through the GFC and how the Treasury Department is crammed full with Wall Street alumni.

It's interesting to me to see that while conservatives think of Obama as this extremely liberal guy, their heads would explode if they hung out with some of the hard core liberals I know. They routinely slam Obama on things like the above as well as his handling of Gitmo and his general lack of defense of privacy rights. It's interesting to me that while such fissures exist in the Dem ranks, the GOP can''t take advantage of them because they've already painted Obama as the ultimate leftist liberal commie pinko rat Kenyan.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
It's interesting to me that while such fissures exist in the Dem ranks, the GOP can''t take advantage of them because they've already painted Obama as the ultimate leftist liberal commie pinko rat Kenyan.

Isn't he a Muslim too?

http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama's_Religion



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 26, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 18):
Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

Interesting....

Voter fraud? How so? The people who stood in line for hours and hours to vote or the exactly zero people who cast a ballot in someone else's name or the people were were eligible to vote but were told they couldn't because they still had a minor conviction on their record from 20+ years ago?

Media: The same media who called a land slide victory for Romney? That media?

Sandy: When in doubt, blame the forces of God.

ACORN: Was disbanded well before this election. WELL before.

Water flouidation: I got to this point and though "Oh, he's just being snarky about the list"

Well played, sir. Well played.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3124 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
Well played, sir. Well played.

I can't believe you fell for that.   



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7638 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 12):
If a government spends a huge quantity on services but gets good value for money and covers its outlay with sufficient income, they are being fiscally responsible.

Ok, the govt. does spend a huge quantity on services, everyone complains about their service so the value for the money is not there, since they are spending tax money and overpsneding creating more debt and pushing the debt ceiling higher and higher they are not being fiscally responsible. I think everyone knows the facts but as mentioned no one really wants to do anything about it, those who do are essentially demonized.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 12):
But I don't think most Tea Party activists would consider that acceptable, even if it is sustainable.

Is there anyone who believes that the current spending and taxes in the US is sustainable, a lot of people seem to think that increase taxes will only benefit additional government spending with no negative effects.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 25):
Isn't he a Muslim too?

Good point.

I should have gone with "the ultimate leftist liberal commie pinko rat Kenyan Muslim closeted jihadi"! 



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 28):
Ok, the govt. does spend a huge quantity on services, everyone complains about their service so the value for the money is not there, since they are spending tax money and overpsneding creating more debt and pushing the debt ceiling higher and higher they are not being fiscally responsible. I think everyone knows the facts but as mentioned no one really wants to do anything about it, those who do are essentially demonized.

This isn't really a discussion about whether the current government is doing its job- more of a philosophical aside on the concept of fiscal conservatism and what it means to different people. To some it means "spending less than you earn"- to others it means "small government". The two are not synonymous.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 27):

BTW, the RNC Chairman's name is Reince Priebus, which sounds like Rinse Pubis.

...and if you remove the vowels it spells RNC PR BS.

.



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1023 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

All because of the 2010 midterms......

Don't vote when you are pissed...at ANYTHING....take a deep breath, put the bottle down and sleep on it.



Carpe Pices
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Reply 33, posted (1 year 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
I never really understood the point that all the republicans do is protect the wealthy. Mitt Romney got nearly 61 million votes in the last election. With many of his electoral college ballots coming from states that generally would not be considered wealthy. Why would people with an average or below average income vote for someone who doesn't represent them properly? Because unless there are 61 million millionaires now, something isn't right. People are voting based on who they think will do the best job and represent their values.

Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 25):

Isn't he a Muslim too?

http://www.conservapedia.com/Obama's...igion

Exactly: by getting support from people who want to bomb countries they can't find on a map, they thus get people to vote Republican who are hurt by Republican fiscal policies...

This is why the party can't unify their message. If they abandon the social conservative side of their base, they abandon a whole lot of red states. If they harp on it too much, they lose the center. They will always have to walk this line, but the split has gotten bigger in recent years, so it is harder.

The democrats certainly know how to play politics too, and they can get the votes of people who think they will get free handouts if they vote Dem, but at the end of the day, at least those people aren't voting for the party that has it in for them.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 34, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 33):
Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,

Precisely, and it has worked for decades.. people are easily manipulated into the incredible ignorance of voting against their own interest.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They ultimately just need to get over Ronald Reagan. Listen, I think he is the man. He's a personal hero of mine. But so much has changed since Reagan was around.

The whatever you do... don't watch Oliver's Stone's History of America Season 1 Episode 8..
..you'll never view him the same way again.

And yes, in subsequent episodes, he lowers the boom on Carter, Clinton and Obama. Bushes are a given.

BN747

[Edited 2013-03-20 17:44:26]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 35, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.

Until you tell them that they are going to cut back on Social Security, Medicare & Medicaid. And the Veterans are in danger also.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
I liked Paul Ryan. He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.

I strongly Paul Ryan's approach to budgets and therefore have a strong distrust for the man. It is totally amazing that when he talks about getting wonky he is really saying that the Social Security that helped him and his family isn't going to be there in the future because the wealthy are more important. Same with health care - just die faster so we can keep taxes lower for the rich. Talks like he's smarter than he is when he puts on his goofy face, but totally under the thumb of big money.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Until Spending Cuts Conservatives crosses the NIMBY Conservatives. The NIMBY Conservatives are the ones who all of a sudden discover that the jobs that are being cut in their state or district are actually pretty important for the economy of the state or district. Unfortunately those Spending Cuts Conservatives have yet to feel the pain in their star or district. At some point they will and then they are going to look for some way to blame the Democrats.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.

Sounds good, until reality hits. A true conservative/libertarian government is going to need to put a LOT of government workers out of work. Maybe not as fast as W at the end of his years, but you cannot grow the economy while becoming a true conservative/libertarian government. Maybe a few generations after the collapse, but a true conservative/libertarian government is not going to be nice to the middle class or the poor.

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
personally I would much prefer a party and leaders that are "fiscally responsible" versus the "fiscally conservative" crap that is currently contributing to the mess.

Sadly that would require "adjustments" to loopholes and actual tax rates. The GOP simply cannot go down that road as they receive too much from the top 1% of the top 1%.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 9):
To get small government there has to be some agreement on what to axe.

Jobs. Basically that is it. You can reduce or cut a "program", but effectively you are cutting jobs - and it is a generational effort to recover. BTW, how will people like Paul handle the federal expenditures to pay for benefits on those they lay off? That is going to be pretty costly in itself.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
I don't think anyone would consider Romney very moderate. He's a conservative through and through.

I believe Romney has been a flexible politician. He bent when governor on health care reform (though he has been attacked for doing so when he was running for President.) He also hides is big money connections and is a strong supporter of eliminating capital gains taxes. Basically he wants to appear "reasonable" in public and considered a "nice guy" by the lower classes. That 47% he will never understand.


Quoting Confuscius (Reply 18):
Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

Voter fraud? Wasn't that JFK? Remember his father saying he wouldn't pay for a landslide? Some people didn't realize that was a joke.

Media' FOX News?

Hurricane Sandy? I actually believe that this impacted the election. The GOP didn't do too good a job at responding to this disaster leaving a lot of voters very turned off. Sort of like Cheney staying on vacation immediately after Katrina. The GOP does a lot better when they don't have to show how well they can respond to a natural disaster.

ACORN? That was McCain's boost, wasn't it? Like Palin.   

Water fluoridation? Wasn't that Goldwater?


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2936 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting n229nw (Reply 33):
Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Precisely, and it has worked for decades.. people are easily manipulated into the incredible ignorance of voting against their own interest.

 . Wow.... Glad to hear all who vote for republicans are dumb people who are easily manipulated. Has nothing to do with values or belief... I don't fear any candidate and don't vote because I'm afraid. I vote for them because I believe they are the right candidate. Nobody throws around those terms in a national election. I vote based on the common interest of everybody. Thats a problem with America today. What can I gain. What about the collective? It's insanity.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
And yes, in subsequent episodes, he lowers the boom on Carter, Clinton and Obama. Bushes are a given.

You can make any president look bad. You can go ahead and twist the nicest people to look like demons. I'm not saying they wrongly judged him. But the presidency is a messy job.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 37, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2890 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
Wow.... Glad to hear all who vote for republicans are dumb people who are easily manipulated. Has nothing to do with values or belief... I don't fear any candidate and don't vote because I'm afraid. I vote for them because I believe they are the right candidate. Nobody throws around those terms in a national election. I vote based on the common interest of everybody. Thats a problem with America today. What can I gain. What about the collective? It's insanity.

The lobbyist are getting more than their money's worth of government... if the American people don't step up demand attention to their interest - and I mean like quickly, ..it will indeed be game over! I don't look at what can gov't do for me - about all it can do (for me) is lessen visa requirements in a few countries (and everyone gains from that).

But make no mistake, if the public doesn't start sending very strong signals to Congress as placing their needs ahead of politics and lobbyist.. that final tally will insurmountable. The clock is ticking!

The Lobbyists... blue prints mapped out for the next 50 years..

The American Public - all over the map - no designs whatsoever .. divided & fighting over everything that means nothing
(It's no wonder Congress ignores them and listens to the well-paying lobbyists.


Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
You can make any president look bad. You can go ahead and twist the nicest people to look like demons. I'm not saying they wrongly judged him. But the presidency is a messy job.

It's not about making any of these guys look bad or good.. it;s about reflecting on actions they and alone ..took for whatever reason. And did those actions serve the American Public - positively or negatively. The actions taken are recorded historical fact.

Yep. the Presidency is messy and so is Politic in general. The trajectory or prognosis, with Lobbying influencing only intensifying promises for it only get messier! The history Lobby influence points straight to that direction. If people start taking matters in their own hands and voting with united interest..we'll have more wrongful wars - costing more unnecessary lives and politicians absconding from blame. We've gotta own up..and so must they! And only we can make them do..that is not in the interested of the monied Lobby groups.

BN747

[Edited 2013-03-20 23:56:58]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2750 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 37):
The American Public - all over the map - no designs whatsoever .. divided & fighting over everything that means nothing(It's no wonder Congress ignores them and listens to the well-paying lobbyists.

Is that not the whole plane of the Democrat and Republican party masterrmind's? To keep us divided by race, sex and class and fighting amongst ourselves while they and their special interest friends rape and plunder the treasury. All the while keeping power collectiviely between their two party system.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 33):
Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,

All I can say about this one is....WOW!!!! Speaking of uneducated voters...  



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 39, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Is that not the whole plane of the Democrat and Republican party masterrmind's? To keep us divided by race, sex and class and fighting amongst ourselves while they and their special interest friends rape and plunder the treasury. All the while keeping power collectiviely between their two party system.

I doubt it's the "whole plane". Clearly people who gravitate to politics largely enjoy the power that comes with the office, and clearly to me at least both parties have special interests feeding that power base. To me neither fully acts on their stated principles even when they could be doing so, but if they did follow their principals, I think the world the conservatives would create would be a far worse world than one that the liberals would create.

As an example of how parties do not act to benefit their party's principles even when they could, we have the case just weeks ago when Harry Reid could have changed the filibuster rules so that one didn't need a super-majority of 60 votes to get anything done in the US Senate, but chose NOT to. If he had, he could have driven much more of the Dem agenda, but his main concern was NOT driving his party's agenda, it was preserving the idea that NEITHER PARTY could drive their agenda via the filibuster/super-majority rules thus the will of the people as expressed via the electoral process is NOT his imperative, preserving the power of the Senate itself (and thus his power as a Senator) is.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 33):
Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,

All I can say about this one is....WOW!!!! Speaking of uneducated voters...

Obama himself famously said in an unguarded moment that the right was full of people who "cling to guns or religion", and he's a Harvard Law grad and was an editor then the president of the Harvard Law Review, so I don't think this is a view held by "uneducated voters".

I don't think you find too many Doomsday Preppers who are on the left politically.

Above we read a good characterization of issues that matter to conservatives:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
They still overall agree with not raising taxes, cutting spending on most social programs but raising spending for police, spying, farmers/ranchers and the Military, reducing government regulation on business, gutting labor rights but increasing it on personal lives (abortion, civil rights, GLTB rights, medical rights). They also generally agree with very strong policies on Immigrants and those that are here illegally.

And in this we find fear of giving power to the government, fear of crime, fear of the poor taking my money, fear of other countries, fear of not being to defend myself, fear of unions, fear of God's wrath, fear of immigrants taking my money/job, etc.

I think liberals fear some of the same things but to a lesser degree, and others don't bother them at all. In particular liberals are more afraid of giving corporations power and wealth whereas conservatives are more afraid of giving the government more power and wealth, and none of this seems to drive the liberals to arm themselves en-mass.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 40, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
Obama himself famously said in an unguarded moment that the right was full of people who "cling to guns or religion", and he's a Harvard Law grad and was an editor then the president of the Harvard Law Review, so I don't think this is a view held by "uneducated voters".

That is a vocal minority within the Republican party who use that to manipulate voters. It worked for a while.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
All I can say about this one is....WOW!!!! Speaking of uneducated voters...

Starting in September, 2001, we were told terrorists were everywhere. EVERYWHERE!!! They are all Muslim and they all want to kill and we should all be afraid. We needed to cling to the Founding Father's Chrisitan values and be afraid. Even though the Founding Fathers wanted freedom of and from religion. They try to scare the American people into doing things like voting for "traditional values" and against Muslim terrorists and deficits don't matter because we are at war for our freedom (from a nation that did nothing to us).

Democrats are not blameless, but this thread is about the right-wing.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinehelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 41, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 18):
Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 11):
24th Ammendment too?

Yeah that too!

You forgot Chemtrails.  

[Edited 2013-03-21 10:09:39]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 42, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
It's painful as a republican to read anything to do with the party. Even Fox News is having trouble fluffing things up. They are so out of touch it is amazing.

So why not stop being a Republican? If the party has moved in a direction that no longer represents you, leave it. There are two outcomes: #1) The GOP realizes how many people they are losing and why and start to change their tune to something more sane or #2) The GOP becomes more insular and isolated and extreme, leading to sidelining and irrelevance while a new political party rises and takes their place.

I don't understand why so many Republicans admit that they're standing on a sinking ship and yet refuse to get in the lifeboats.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
I don't think anyone would consider Romney very moderate. He's a conservative through and through.

I agree. The trouble is that the GOP definition of "Conservative" has shifted so far off any known historical political spectrum that Mr. Romney wound up in a rather awkward position of having to renounce his actual conservatism in lieu of GDB's "Monster Raving Loony"ism. He himself was the chief architect of ObamaCare, including the Individual Mandate. There was a viral YouTube video of him talking about how important that mandate was in the MA arrangement. And then he was put in the place of having to contradict himself. ObamaCare is actually a Conservative idea. It was a brilliant move by Mr. Obama to steal the GOP's idea and then give them a choice of either playing along or being obstructionist (and he knew full well which it would be).

And so whether Mr. Romney is a true Conservative, the positions he was forced to espouse by the GOP were anything but Conservative and were "Monster Raving Looney." The GOP wasn't running on any ideas of its own, just on a basic platform of: 1) No abortion 2) God Hates Fags* 3) NObama. Well, that works well for dyed-in-the-wool Republicans, but for independents, it was a turn-off and the results were self-evident.

*Call me harsh or "flamebait" but the GOP primaries featured three prominent candidates (Mr. Santorum, Mrs. Bachmann, and Mr. Perry) who devoted a huge amount of their airtime to talking about gays. All of the candidates signed the NOM pledge and they ALL invoked religion in their justifications for why they were taking this stand. An anti-gay agenda was a massive part of the GOP campaign and platform.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):

The Republicans are not is as much disarray as some of them as well as the Liberals/left of centers think. The Republicans control a clear majority of States' Governorships, other top State voted positions, Judges, legislatures as well suburban and rural county or local governments. The Republicans control the clear majority of the Congress and only a few members short in the Senate. They didn't lose by much in the Presidential election and that loss was more about Romney's terrible business history and too many dumb statements.

While the GOP does control a majority of states governorships, many of those governors are not nearly as "Monster Raving Looney" as the national GOP. As for the Senate, I'd remind you that there were many more Democrats up for re-election than Republicans and the Democrats won all but one of those elections. By contrast, the Democrats picked up a few seats (three, I think) from the GOP. So they gained two seats.

As for the House, the GOP controls, but the popular vote in the house would have given the DNC control. Due to redistricting ("Gerrymandering") the GOP retains control.

This raises a side issue: a key portion of the GOP strategy seems to be attacking voter rights and redistricting so as to leverage the election process to guarantee GOP wins. Of course, they do this while loudly beating their chests about voter fraud, even though the total number of voter fraud cases in the last election was very low (and most of the fraud was being committed by Republican-leaning individuals). This speaks of a party that is so convinced of its own rightness that it disrespects the democratic process, so fundamental to the United States and other free countries.

However, if the GOP continues to behave as a bigoted, arrogant party of rich, white dudes who wave their crosses around and hate gays (and that is exactly the sense that they project), rather than a party that tries to reign in government regulation and over-reach, no amount of election-rigging is going to save them.

Although I vote Democrat (by default), I really do not want a country completely dominated by one political party that contains such wackjobs as Jesse Jackson Jr.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
I don't think you find too many Doomsday Preppers who are on the left politically.

That's true, but remember that the more extreme somebody's views are, the louder they tend to rant about them. It does rather distort things. The left have 9/11 conspiracy theorists, which are the other side of the tin-foiled coin.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2729 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
So why not stop being a Republican? If the party has moved in a direction that no longer represents you, leave it. There are two outcomes: #1) The GOP realizes how many people they are losing and why and start to change their tune to something more sane or #2) The GOP becomes more insular and isolated and extreme, leading to sidelining and irrelevance while a new political party rises and takes their place.

Because I just can't find a democrat I can associate with. I'm originally from CT. We have Blumenthol and Chris Murphy. They're just holier than thou people. They all think some fancy education makes them better than me. Sorry I'm only working on my bachelors. It may be a sinking ship but from the sinking something else will appear. Hopefully instead of gay haters and abortion nuts they'll be for civil rights. I think if they dropped the anti gay stance they could really be a much more powerful party. A lot of people I know that voted for Obama did so because it made them sick how anti gay Romney was. Even though on most other issues they identify with republicans much more.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
This raises a side issue: a key portion of the GOP strategy seems to be attacking voter rights and redistricting so as to leverage the election process to guarantee GOP wins

Doc you had a lot of good points up to this. Both parties do this. And if it gives them an advantage of course they will do it. They aren't redistricting to attack voter rights, they are doing it to win. California did it a couple years ago, you mean to tell me they did it so it was completely fair, not to get democrats in congress?
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 45, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 44):
Both parties do this. And if it gives them an advantage of course they will do it. They aren't redistricting to attack voter rights, they are doing it to win. California did it a couple years ago, you mean to tell me they did it so it was completely fair, not to get democrats in congress?

As far as I can tell what California has now is by far the most fair process that I have seen in a long time. It has absolutely reduced the gerrymandering where districts were drawn in the most bizarre shapes. The issue is that there are by the nature of the states population, a lot of Democrat leaning districts when drawn reasonably, that is why the Republican's agreed to the gerrymandering in the past that while it locked them into a minority status, it at least gave them a few more seats and prevented the domination by the Democrats.

Now the state is very much in the hands of the Dem's and it will sink or swim based on what they do and control, they can;t blame anyone else.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1972 posts, RR: 31
Reply 46, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2695 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
Glad to hear all who vote for republicans are dumb people who are easily manipulated.

I didn't say that everyone who votes Republican is dumb (wrong and dumb aren't the same thing    ). I did say that the answer to the "mystery" of why there are so many poor and lower-middle-class people who vote Republican even through Republican policies hurt them directly is that the fear or difference side of the platform kicks in and overrides the other aspects of the platform, and that that is why the Republicans can't win if they ditch the social rightwingers (and their attendant foreign policy), but also have a dilemma about turning away other voters because of this. The fact that fear of the other (at home or abroad) can be used to win political power is hardly new.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 33):
Fear. I hate to say it, but it is because the GOP has learned to manipulate people who fear difference. They use the Christian, social conservative side of their platform to woo uneducated white voters by throwing around words such as communist, Muslim, gay agenda, etc.,

All I can say about this one is....WOW!!!! Speaking of uneducated voters...

So I stand by that quote. The people who think Obama is a secret Muslim or a communist are either dumb or uneducated or both. While there are many people who vote Republican for much more thoughtful reasons, the GOP depends on the former base to contribute heavily to winning most of their important elections.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8471 posts, RR: 9
Reply 47, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
Glad to hear all who vote for republicans are dumb people who are easily manipulated.

That's not the point and I'm sure you know it. Lots of very bright folks in the GOP, especially the very wealthy GOP voters.

The GOP does, however, have strong ties to the other end of the intellectual spectrum. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act he said that it would cost the Democrats the South for 50 years. It's been longer than that, but the GOP can still use various levels of hate to gain votes. The WASP is the targeted voter - no surprise there. Call him Bubba in a lot of situations - no matter how educated he is.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
The GOP wasn't running on any ideas of its own, just on a basic platform of: 1) No abortion 2) God Hates Fags* 3) NObama. Well, that works well for dyed-in-the-wool Republicans, but for independents, it was a turn-off and the results were self-evident.

You forgot cuts in NIMBY Spending as well as more tax cuts. The Ryan Budget got passed again today.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 44):
Because I just can't find a democrat I can associate with.

Then be an Independent. In a lot of cases it will almost be the same as being a Democrat.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 48, posted (1 year 9 months 3 days ago) and read 2670 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 44):
Because I just can't find a democrat I can associate with. I'm originally from CT. We have Blumenthol and Chris Murphy. They're just holier than thou people. They all think some fancy education makes them better than me

Pat, piece of advice. Rise above that because people of all political, social and every other persuasion will actually and intentionally pull the 'I'm better than you' card. And that is a card and a very silly game at that! Let's just say for instance.. you drive a nice motorcycle, some douche pulls up next to you at the light on a jacked up, tricked out BMW kick ass bike..looks at you, revs up the engine a few times before the light changes - everyone has seen it, and we know what it is about, he's showing off his better toy than yours - he thinks he's better than you. Politicians (local,county, state & fed) do it all the time. As do Actors/celebs, regular Hotel guest (even some snotty concierge workers), Flight Attendants, - this going to occur all you life. The best remedy .. dispense with the notion and let it live in their heads. Because once you've made yourself immune to such feelings, it is those very people who get eaten up as they begin to run into more and more people who are either indeed better than them... or their 'holier than thou' act just doesn't work. I've seen it way too much and how it ends...it's never pretty. They become a complete lonely mess.

The guy on the bike ...will pull that one time too many and broadside a truck.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 43):
The left have 9/11 conspiracy theorists, which are the other side of the tin-foiled coin.

Yeah, but who does a 9/11 Conspiracy Theorist hurt? Or the JFK Conspiracy Theorist harm? They are like Bible (to a point)...don't like 'em, don't read it. Whereas the Bible will get people killed (abortion clinic bombings, etc). And on the right.. anyone rememb ering Bomb Iran drums just before the election??? Mitt was all for it, the right was all over it... that kind of stuff is dangerous! And these things always get people senselessly killed - in large numbers over nothing.I could not believe after all the proof of the Iraq Invasion (and it's cost) a good number of Americans allowed themselves to get scared into thinking 'we must Iran now'! Seeing how easily many Americans fell for that.. sent a message to the Lobby Interest - the msg: They can be made to believe anything! .. just spend enough money on it.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineConfuscius From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 3875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Rather than dwell on past failures, the GOP should address the five most important issues among conservatives.

1. Benghazi
2. Benghazi
3. Benghazi
4. Benghazi
5. Benghazi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl-z2s2XbtM



Ain't I a stinker?
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2664 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting n229nw (Reply 46):
wrong and dumb aren't the same thing    ).

Well it doesn't necessarily make them wrong either. It's all how you view the world.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 46):
The people who think Obama is a secret Muslim or a communist are either dumb or uneducated or both. While there are many people who vote Republican for much more thoughtful reasons, the GOP depends on the former base to contribute heavily to winning most of their important elections.

If people still believe that they are more ignorant than uneducated. The GOP will appeal more to these voters, but it's because they are ignorant and can't see the other side. Similar to the far left. They will never vote for a republican.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
Then be an Independent. In a lot of cases it will almost be the same as being a Democrat.

I've considered dropping the party affiliation as the tea party has become stronger. At first I kind of liked the idea. Now it's just a power grab that is resulting in no good. If the GOP could separate themselves from the tea party I may reconsider dropping the party affiliation.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 48):
Pat, piece of advice.

Good advice, but for the most part I do understand that. I've just never found a democrat that I can identify with. They are power hungry and arrogance comes with it, but it's tough when those same people think I'm crazy for supporting the second amendment and attend church. Doesn't mean I'm not for some liberal social policies.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 48):
Whereas the Bible will get people killed (abortion clinic bombings, etc).

Thats pretty excessive. The bible doesn't encourage anything like that. Just as the Quran does not encourage jihad. Those are insane people who do horrible things. People who do those things hurt religion because they try to justify evil crimes with their religious text of choice.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 51, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 49):

Rather than dwell on past failures, the GOP should address the five most important issues among conservatives.

1. Benghazi
2. Benghazi
3. Benghazi
4. Benghazi
5. Benghazi

LOL are they still going on about that? I thought they learned that wasn't a very good road to go down in order to make Democrats look bad  



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 52, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 46):
While there are many people who vote Republican for much more thoughtful reasons, the GOP depends on the former base to contribute heavily to winning most of their important elections.

Exactly. The right no longer says "Vote for us because...." but instead say "Don't vote for them because... so vote for us."



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 53, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 44):
I think if they dropped the anti gay stance they could really be a much more powerful party.

Not happening any time soon. Even if the grass roots of the party is no longer on-board with the anti-gay, the leaders of the party (the "Old White Men" that they're so afraid of looking like) simply will not budge.

When SCOTUS knocks down DOMA and issues a blanket ruling outlawing gay marriage bans (and I think this will be the outcome), it will be the biggest saving grace the GOP could ever have. They will be able to blame it all on those dastardly Democrat Liberal Hippie Commies and then let it drop, and in typical GOP fashion claim it was all their idea ten years down the line.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 44):
Doc you had a lot of good points up to this. Both parties do this.

Both parties do it and it needs to stop, HOWEVER, the vast majority of voter fraud has been perpetrated by GOP. The vast majority of attempts to disenfranchise voters has been by the GOP. It has been in GOP states that voters have had to wait hours to vote. And those long lines were disproportionately in Democratic districts.

I am not just making this up. I am not pointing fingers. Both parties game the system, but the GOP has been playing a LOT more games, and that is objective truth, not just my opinion.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
They ultimately just need to get over Ronald Reagan. Listen, I think he is the man. He's a personal hero of mine. But so much has changed since Reagan was around. The cold war is gone, technology rules the world, and we are burning through more money on a daily basis than ever before. Most of my friends (who are all of voting age) weren't even alive when he was President.

Even though Reagan is hero worshiped by may current republicans the truth is that he would probably not meet the current litmus test for being a "good republican".

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
I liked Paul Ryan. He is an example of some change, though not drastic enough.

In spite of all his talk for reducing the deficit he certainly likes to vote for things that increase it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Most people want a conservative/libertarian government.

Everyone is a libertarian until they're unemployed.

[Edited 2013-03-22 00:15:49]

User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2732 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 18):
Reasons why Romney lost:

1. Voter fraud
2. Media
3, Hurricane Sandy
4. ACORN
5. Water fluoridation

I assume this is satire of Glen Beck cuckoo land:

1. Voter fraud is a non-existent problem according to the independent and non-partisan agencies overseeing the process. This is a GOP pretext to reduce minority access to voting. This is the shameful fact.
2. Media. Apart from MSNBC with is openly progressive, the media are hardly pro-Democrat. Fox, however, with the largest single chunk of the viewing audience is, not just partisan, but an integral part of the GOP machine: propaganda, misinformation, fake polls, fake facts, fake issues; need I go on? Ailes is even on tape making an offer to put Petreus in the Whitehouse and run his campaign for him.
3. Bad weather? Seriously?
4. ACORN: too much Fox news : ACORN was shut down several years ago; they did not even EXIST during the election campaign
5. Water: another left wing conspiracy



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 56, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Not happening any time soon. Even if the grass roots of the party is no longer on-board with the anti-gay, the leaders of the party (the "Old White Men" that they're so afraid of looking like) simply will not budge.

I completely agree that it won't happen. The fact is though they need to get younger, that is the best way to get the younger demographic. Well that and they can gain back their souls...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
HOWEVER, the vast majority of voter fraud has been perpetrated by GOP. The vast majority of attempts to disenfranchise voters has been by the GOP. It has been in GOP states that voters have had to wait hours to vote. And those long lines were disproportionately in Democratic districts.

How do they slow down the vote? I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious to be honest.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 54):
Even though Reagan is hero worshiped by may current republicans the truth is that he would probably not meet the current litmus test for being a "good republican".

Sad but true.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 55):
3. Bad weather? Seriously?

Well the thing with that is the republicans seem to believe that the storm made the president look good. Which it did. He did a fantastic job responding to the storm and making sure people got the help they needed. Which is what the president should do anyways. But they use it as a crutch...
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 57, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 56):
the republicans seem to believe that the storm made the president look good.

Wasn't Bush I in office during Andrew? Everyone said he did a remarkable job with that storm. I think it is all in how a president relates to people.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 56):
How do they slow down the vote?

Putting a few voting machines in poorer precincts and putting a lot of voting machines in smaller and/or richer precincts.
http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/16/2...oppe-big-precincts-long-lines.html says that some people in Richland county South Carolina (hardly a bastion of liberalism) waited up to seven hours to vote. SEVEN HOURS!! How is that American? Making people wait that long to vote? I went to Google for this information.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 58, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2469 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting seb146 (Reply 57):
Wasn't Bush I in office during Andrew? Everyone said he did a remarkable job with that storm. I think it is all in how a president relates to people.

I don't think it is more to do with the time the storm came. It was close to the election and still fresh in many people's minds. I couldn't comment on Andrew because I was still 4 months from birth at that point.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 57):
Putting a few voting machines in poorer precincts and putting a lot of voting machines in smaller and/or richer precincts.
http://www.thestate.com/2012/12/16/2...oppe-big-precincts-long-lines.html says that some people in Richland county South Carolina (hardly a bastion of liberalism) waited up to seven hours to vote. SEVEN HOURS!! How is that American? Making people wait that long to vote? I went to Google for this information.

Okay but how was that the republicans fault? I did a search on the page and not once found republicans or democrats mentioned. It seems it was an error on the election commissions part. Plus if it wasn't a liberal district, wouldn't you want the voters to come out? It seems that you would want votes for your guy.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 59, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 56):
How do they slow down the vote? I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious to be honest.

Florida was a fantastic example. Florida's GOP-dominated state government ensured that there was 1) minimal opportunity to vote early or by mail-in, so people who work two jobs and scrape by to make a living (Democrat demographic) had a lot more hurdles to leap to vote. 2) insufficient voting machines in predominantly Democrat districts leading to very long lines. 3) Republicans have been trying to pass voter ID laws with more and more restrictive requirements for documentation. Because many African-Americans born prior to the Civil Rights Act in the South have no birth certificates, they can't get the required ID. Guess who those folks are most likely to vote for? 4) Of the voter fraud events in 2012 the great majority were perpetrated by Republican-leaning individuals.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 60, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
4) Of the voter fraud events in 2012 the great majority were perpetrated by Republican-leaning individuals.

Doc, is there a source on this?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2454 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Thanks for the reply Doc.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
1) minimal opportunity to vote early or by mail-in, so people who work two jobs and scrape by to make a living (Democrat demographic) had a lot more hurdles to leap to vote.

But isn't it law that everyone must have an opportunity to go out and vote? Couldn't these people who work multiple jobs leave in order to vote and not be punished?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
2) insufficient voting machines in predominantly Democrat districts leading to very long lines

Interesting

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
3) Republicans have been trying to pass voter ID laws with more and more restrictive requirements for documentation. Because many African-Americans born prior to the Civil Rights Act in the South have no birth certificates, they can't get the required ID. Guess who those folks are most likely to vote for?

I'm not trying to say voter id laws are right or wrong, but how do people live without having ID? I mean I can't even go out and buy tobacco or alcohol without it. Nevermind operate a motor vehicle or get a job. Is there a method where they can obtain a birth certificate? I would have to imagine there is.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
4) Of the voter fraud events in 2012 the great majority were perpetrated by Republican-leaning individuals.

Okay but the big debate from the left is that voter fraud cases are so low that it shouldn't be a problem. I saw a graphic (on Fox if you can believe that) that there were only 17 cases of voter fraud in 2010. Thats pretty low. If these republicans are committing voter fraud why isn't it front page news that ends with their prosecution.

It's nice to have a healthy debate on the subject. Republicans need to get their act together or float off into the abyss. They're starting to do it, but they are far from the point of no return. The midterm elections should be interesting. Perhaps they will get their act together by then, but a lot has to change. I think how they continue to handle the sequester and the budget will determine it all.
Have a great weekend everyone,
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 62, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

The repubs are in a world of pure Catch 22 hurt right now. Only those candidates that appeal to the fringe white extremist branches can get past the primaries. But once they get there they can't convince women and latinos that they really care about their needs, concerns, and/or wants.

The funniest thing in all of this is to watch these people invoke Reagan in every speech. The man never would've made it past the first two weeks of Republican primaries nowadays.

It's sad really because I'd actually vote for a fiscally conservative Republican that didn't pander to the party's iditoic fringe (Buchanan, Palin, Hannity, Limbaugh etc.). But these poeple don't exist anymore and when I weigh fiscal irresponsibility and social views that look like the 15th Century I'll sacrifice the former every time. You can always fix the books, but when you let extreme haterd and intolerance drive a legislative agenda, that can take 2 or 3 generations to repair.

Anyway, I gave voting after Citizens United. Our democracy just isn't a real democracy anymore. This is a country of sheep.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 61):
But isn't it law that everyone must have an opportunity to go out and vote? Couldn't these people who work multiple jobs leave in order to vote and not be punished?

In practice that's rarely the case. For low skilled jobs the employer can make it very clear that's not an option, or that there will be negative consequences. It's completely illegal, but the law is pretty useless here. Low skilled workers don't have the time or money to sue, and they can't afford to lose their jobs anyway. The employers know it full well and exploit it to the max.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2435 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 61):
Okay but the big debate from the left is that voter fraud cases are so low that it shouldn't be a problem.

There is a critical distinction. The argument from the anti-ID side is not that there is no voter fraud (clearly there is tons), but that there is little voter fraud which requiring ID would actually prevent.

There are many different types of voter fraud. Voter impersonation is just one.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2838 posts, RR: 4
Reply 65, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2435 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting wingman (Reply 62):
The repubs are in a world of pure Catch 22 hurt right now. Only those candidates that appeal to the fringe white extremist branches can get past the primaries.

I can't understand how it got that bad. Certainly not every republican is extreme right. They're scaring the base that is more to the center and making sure independents will never vote for them.

Quoting wingman (Reply 62):
The funniest thing in all of this is to watch these people invoke Reagan in every speech. The man never would've made it past the first two weeks of Republican primaries nowadays.

It's pretty amazing that it has come to this. He's the hero of everyone with an R next to their name, yet his politics are not referenced..

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 63):
In practice that's rarely the case. For low skilled jobs the employer can make it very clear that's not an option, or that there will be negative consequences. It's completely illegal, but the law is pretty useless here. Low skilled workers don't have the time or money to sue, and they can't afford to lose their jobs anyway. The employers know it full well and exploit it to the max.

Makes sense. It is beyond wrong, but I can see how they can accomplish doing that. I wish enforcement was higher. It may benefit democrats but it really bothers me that not everybody has the right to vote. Their voices should be heard.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Here's a tip: run away from people like Trump and Palin. Run far, far away! I'm embarrassed that the GOP would actually choose these people to represent their party...


Cha brro
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 67, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2398 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 62):
The funniest thing in all of this is to watch these people invoke Reagan in every speech. The man never would've made it past the first two weeks of Republican primaries nowadays.

Can you imagine if he said this at the GOP convention 2012?

"We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that's crazy."


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 53):
Not happening any time soon. Even if the grass roots of the party is no longer on-board with the anti-gay, the leaders of the party (the "Old White Men" that they're so afraid of looking like) simply will not budge.

I's kind of hard nowadays to know who is in charge of the Republican Party. If the kooks were really in charge Mitt Romney would not have been nominated. Say what you will about him he was more of a moderate than most of the other Republicans running fr president.

On the other hand it seems like the GOP panders to the kooks in their ranks. They need to cast them out like William F. Buckley kicked the John Birchers and other loons out of the conservative movement.

[Edited 2013-03-22 12:34:28]

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 69, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):

I want an unabashed conservative/libertarian party that runs on a platform of having a policy goal of achieving 50% unemployment in the Washington DC area, as he cuts through buraucrats. The "safe, moderate" candidates like McCain and Romney have been a disaster.

But even a far right candidate can't do that because the largest employer of government bureaucrats is the Department of Defense...that sacred entity that conservatives can't cut.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Sure, as long as the cuts don't affect them personally. Have a poll question that asks "should we reduce the deficit by cutting your social security check by 10%" and see how much support you get in the polls!! In fact, polls like this have been asked and Americans overwhelmingly oppose cuts to Social Security, Medicare or defense. However, without cuts to those programs, it is impossible to balance the budget.

It's a fundamental hypocrisy for conservatives and one that no conservative has an answer for.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 70, posted (1 year 9 months 2 days ago) and read 2375 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 61):
Okay but the big debate from the left is that voter fraud cases are so low that it shouldn't be a problem. I saw a graphic (on Fox if you can believe that) that there were only 17 cases of voter fraud in 2010. Thats pretty low. If these republicans are committing voter fraud why isn't it front page news that ends with their prosecution.

The point is that voter fraud IS rare. What the GOP is doing is trying to disenfranchise traditionally DNC-leaning demographics and that is undemocratic.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6054 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2340 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 54):
Even though Reagan is hero worshiped by may current republicans the truth is that he would probably not meet the current litmus test for being a "good republican".

They'd stall the second they saw that he used to head the Screen Actors Guild  


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13252 posts, RR: 77
Reply 72, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 70):
The point is that voter fraud IS rare. What the GOP is doing is trying to disenfranchise traditionally DNC-leaning demographics and that is undemocratic.

Before the election, Sarah Silverman did a video to encourage (in her own inimitable style) people to register and to avoid the barriers some states were throwing up (for certain groups only).
Included was footage at a GOP conference where a speaker boasted that the schemes they've put in would deliver (his word), that state to Romney. It didn't however.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20335 posts, RR: 59
Reply 73, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 68):
I's kind of hard nowadays to know who is in charge of the Republican Party. If the kooks were really in charge Mitt Romney would not have been nominated. Say what you will about him he was more of a moderate than most of the other Republicans running fr president.

He was the most moderate, but was forced to say ridiculous things during the campaign by that same leadership. They're crazy, but not stupid. They knew that the likes of Mrs. Bachmann, Mr. Santorum, or Mr. Perry. Any of those three would have lost by at least 20% of the popular vote to Mr. Obama and they knew it. However, the fact that Mr. Santorum won as many delegates as he did was telling.

Part of the problem is the evangelicals. When you are absolutely, positively, 100.0% convinced that you are right, you are a very dangerous person. One need look no further than Al Qaeda to see the extremes of the dangers of certainty. It also means that you will not negotiate, and our current debt ceiling and budgetary woes are due in part to a refusal to negotiate.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 74, posted (1 year 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 66):
run away from people like Trump and Palin. Run far, far away! I'm embarrassed that the GOP would actually choose these people to represent their party...

Problem is: these two are the most recognizable and favorable in the right-wing world.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 58):
Okay but how was that the republicans fault? I did a search on the page and not once found republicans or democrats mentioned. It seems it was an error on the election commissions part. Plus if it wasn't a liberal district, wouldn't you want the voters to come out? It seems that you would want votes for your guy.

I want the voters to come out. Period. My problem is the right wing tries so hard to make it impossible for anyone to vote at all. That is not the United States I want to live in. Look at Pennsylvania and all the states that are re-districting.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 58):
I don't think it is more to do with the time the storm came. It was close to the election and still fresh in many people's minds.

Katrina? That was not even close to an election but it was still enough for the right to get creamed.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2001 posts, RR: 21
Reply 75, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2128 times:

I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 76, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

What I think is funny is a small group of people bought a political party and branded themselves as "Christian" and "American" and people believe it and vote for them because the media they bought told them what to think!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5778 posts, RR: 10
Reply 77, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2134 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

As a Republican, I am not concerned about the left and what Dems think, why are you? I am fully worried at the failures of the Republican Party and its apparent inability to learn from the past and to work for the people and the country and not "planks" and blowhards.

But that's just me.
Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 2001 posts, RR: 21
Reply 78, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2132 times:



Quoting seb146 (Reply 76):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

What I think is funny is a small group of people bought a political party and branded themselves as "Christian" and "American" and people believe it and vote for them because the media they bought told them what to think!

Of course you do.


Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

As a Republican, I am not concerned about the left and what Dems think, why are you? I

I am not, hence my amusement.

[Edited 2013-03-26 22:44:59]

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12947 posts, RR: 25
Reply 79, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 75):
I can't help but chuckle at reading this thread filled with leftists and Democrats hand-wringing over the Republican party thinking they actually have their fingers on the pulse of Conservatives and know what they really think.

Actually what the topic is about is the GOP disarray on show at CPAC. Care to read the linked article in the thread starter and tell us what you think of the points it makes, mostly that if there was some sort of message the GOP was trying to amplify, no one was doing so?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 74):
I want the voters to come out. Period. My problem is the right wing tries so hard to make it impossible for anyone to vote at all. That is not the United States I want to live in. Look at Pennsylvania and all the states that are re-districting.

Exactly. If 100 % of eligible voters voted and it came back Republican, I'd be willing to except it.

During past elections, I've encouraged others to vote, even if I know they will vote for candidates I don't approve of. Of course everyone votes in Minnesota anyway.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1023 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

What I found so funny is all the tons of monies...especially PAC monies that the GOP spent and got sooo little to show for it.



And the look on Karl Rove's face on FOX that night......


Priceless!!



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6926 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

I really don't like the idea of cutting the people into groups and trying to appeal to each with one or two issues. To me that's the opposite of what having a political vision should be. If some republicans are so concerned with religion that they basically want a theocracy, expel them from the party and let them create a new party with that platform ! It seems there is more division between moderate republicans and the religious right and tea party than there is between the same moderate republicans and Obama.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Fact: Look at all the polls that ask detailed policy questions, such as "should the deficit be reduced by a) cutting spending only, b) raising taxes only, or c) combination", people by a very wide margin tend to vote sharply conservative.

Most people are against tax increases, even taxes they don't pay and aren't likely to ever pay (wealth taxes, high income taxes, etc.).

Add a line about what spending would be cut, and see how people don't want to cut anything that they benefit from.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11796 posts, RR: 15
Reply 83, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 80):
If 100 % of eligible voters voted and it came back Republican, I'd be willing to except it.

That would be fine, if it was of their own free will. But, with re-districting heavily in favor of the right, that "free will" is out the window.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 83):

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 80):
If 100 % of eligible voters voted and it came back Republican, I'd be willing to except it.

That would be fine, if it was of their own free will. But, with re-districting heavily in favor of the right, that "free will" is out the window.

I was referring to the popular outcome in a hypothetical situation with no Electoral College.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Anti-Gay Speaker Booed Off The Stage At Cpac posted Fri Feb 19 2010 21:03:45 by JCS17
Wall St. Plumments -286 Points On 07-26 At Closing Bell posted Thu Jul 26 2007 20:58:56 by PSA53
Theft/Shoplifting On The Rise At Wal-Mart posted Wed Jun 13 2007 23:00:30 by PSA53
New Storm On Jupiter Hints At Climate Change posted Fri May 5 2006 02:35:46 by Wannabe
Republican Probe On Katrina Fails To Pass posted Tue Sep 20 2005 07:12:07 by Tbar220
Thoughts On GWB's Speech At The RNC posted Wed Sep 8 2004 03:17:43 by Aa61hvy
New Cool Sh*t On Western Values At Abu Ghraib posted Fri May 21 2004 14:00:33 by Rabenschlag
My Theory On The People At The Anti-war Protests posted Wed Mar 26 2003 22:52:31 by Jcs17
Giving Your Full Name Out At Work posted Tue Feb 5 2013 12:13:56 by fca767
Possible To Party A Night At ZRH On A Budget? posted Sat May 12 2012 06:16:37 by Stratofish