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Government Money Grab In Cyprus  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Kind of surprised that this topic didn't get any attention here, and that it doesn't get much attention in the US, given our great debts. Yes, I know we can always print more money, but still...

What do you think about the idea that a government would try to grab 10% of it's nation's bank funds to try to bail itself and its insolvent banks out of trouble?

Do you think Cyprus knew the measure would be so unpopular that there really wasn't much risk of presenting that to its people, or do you think they honestly thought it might pass?

Where does Cyprus go now that indeed their main banks are insolvent and there's no one around to bail them out at this point?

How long will they keep the banks closed while they try to sort things out?

Has this made you think differently about keeping your money in a bank?

If so, what is your 'plan B'?


Inspiration, move me brightly!
179 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4963 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Kind of surprised that this topic didn't get any attention here, and that it doesn't get much attention in the US, given our great debts. Yes, I know we can always print more money, but still...

Because nobody is laughing. If things go seriously in the tank over here, I could very well see Obama wanting to do the same thing. Wealth is theft, after all...

New Zealand seems to like the idea - they are considering the same course of action. Not many Cypriots on this forum, but we have some Kiwis - what do you guys think of it?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA130...style-solution-for-new-zealand.htm

In fact the precedent has already been done in the US, and we Americans sat for it when we allowed the GM bailout to take place where the seniority of bondholders (i.e. people's retirement savings) was ignored and they were screwed while the UAW was made whole.



In a couple of years federal medical spending along with Social Security and interest will, on current paths, reach the total of all tax receipts - and I'm not even going to take into account interest increases when the Fed can no longer hold back the dam on that falling asteroid.

At the outside the market will realize that Congress will never address the underlying issue with medical care because they have steadfastly refused to do so. At that point we will have become Greece and Cyprus.

Look for people to invest increasingly in "safe" assets - such as gold which you can hide under your bed, or explore ways on getting their money to safe harbors such as banks in stable foreign countries. Do you think it was a coincidence that Obama passed FATCA a few years ago? FATCA costs more to enforce than it was ever anticipated to recover in back taxes and penalties back in 2009, but now it is in place when not just the wealthy few, but EVERYONE will try to hide their money from the taxman.

For those who say that our banking system is “strong” and “not corrupt unlike Cyprus” may I ask what the record is on money laundering and intentional obfuscation of the truth with regard to firms such as HSBC and Wachovia (both of which were caught laundering enormous amounts of money) and JP Morgan (which was just grilled, along with the regulators, regarding the “London Whale”) and not one person or institution has been indicted and prosecuted?

There is about $20 trillion in US Retirement “assets.” A “small” 10% “one time” tax levy on those assets would fund the US Deficit a couple of years from now, and I will go out on a limb now and predict that exactly that will be done.
Of course the “one time” aspect will be a lie too, but we Americans will lap that one up as well just like you have all the others.

We all know that someday are entitlement debt will become just to much. It WILL happen as we continue kicking the can down the road. At that point what will government do? Think it can’t happen here?

The fact of the matter is that the purpose of capital supervision in a banking system is to prevent a degrading banking institution from ever going into negative capital and thus having to hit depositors. But the record from 2007 to the present is that our banking regulators, including the FDIC, have repeatedly failed to follow the law on Prompt Corrective Action which mandates that no bank be allowed to go into a negative capital situation. Despite this mandate in the law the FDIC has repeatedly, in virtually every case, shown an actual loss when it has closed a bank during these years - a loss that, if the law is followed, can't happen. Following the law, at worst, a failing bank will repay its depositors using its legally required reserves - which have been allowed by the Fed to themselves be put at risk.

It is simply a matter of time given the endemic corruption and fraud throughout the system before a large institution -- or set of institutions -- is exposed as actually having negative capital and a run occurs which the FDIC and Treasury cannot cover.

We have $20 trillion in IRAs and 401k retirement assets. There are almost $300 trillion floating around in the form of derivatives (the derivative bomb, which nobody understands or wants to deal with). The FDIC insurance fund is only $25 billion.

Have fun - I need a drink now.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Yes, I know we can always print more money, but still...

Best method ever of avoiding obligations. Devalue the currency and pay half (if that much) of the debt. Problem for Cyprus is that they are part of the Euro bloc and can not simply pay in worthless paper. Greece has experienced the same quandary with some naively suggesting that they leave the Euro bloc and pay in confetti. Problem is that it doesn't actually solve the problem.

Assume for a minute that Cyprus (or Greece) leaves the Euro. Then what? If the loans are written and to be repaid in Euro, rapid inflation will result unless the debt is written down. If the debts are written in USD, will it be that different? But for the sake of argument, the debts are cleared. What then? Will Cyprus (either the Government - note that it is not the Government of Cyprus that incurred the debts - or Cypriot banks) be able to raise further finance on favourable terms? Those "analysts" who suggest that countries leave the Euro to solve the immediate problem almost without fail do not address what happens next. Why is that, I wonder?

Fortunately the Parliament of Cyprus has voted against the proposal. Of course this does not guarantee that the depositors are safe. If a solution to the problems of the banks is not found, then the depositors are still at risk for the simple reason that they are unsecured creditors.

Falls in the All Ordinaries Index have been attributed to the uncertainty surrounding the proposed "theft" of savers money. I note that their has been an attempt by some media (the Guardian among others) to hint that it was somehow fair because Russians invest their money in Cyprus. Whether or not Russians choose to launder money in Cyprus, why penalise those who have saved for their old age?

We constantly hear from the right-wing that the State can not afford pensions. Due to the rising number of people who are living longer, it is up to the individual to save for their retirement. And then the very same people who tell us this say that we should pay for the losses incurred by their lack of oversight. Am I surprised that there is anger at the politicians and the banks? No way.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Wealth is theft, after all...

I think it was Proudhon who stated "Property is theft", not wealth. He was of course referring to those who secured their income through the labour of others and, historically, who had appropriated property through wars and other acts of dispossession. In short, he wasn't talking about somebody who opened a joint and started selling burgers. Of course, Proudhon was neither Marxist, nor Socialist.  


User currently offlinearrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4917 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Have fun - I need a drink now.

Have a beer on me. Your analysis is right on the "money" if you'll forgive the pun.

It's one thing for a savings account "theft" program to be put forward by little Cyprus; it's quite another for the idea to be put forward by the EU as a condition of bailout. The money people put in their savings accounts is after-tax money and it's there to make a little (fully taxable) interest (very little these days) and provide some future financial security. Governments everywhere encourage people to do this because the alternative is for the state to go the "cradle to grave" route which has been, I hope, largely discredited.


If you decide to go the "wealth tax" route, you remove entirely the incentive to save. You might as well put your money in a sock and keep it under the mattress. Or buy gold, I guess, but that's very uncomfortable to sleep on. It's no surprise now that Cyprus wants to keep its banks closed for a few more days. But they've already let the genie out of the bottle, and if I had money in a bank in Cyprus, I'd yank it out at the first opportunity -- never mind that the Cyprus parliament voted the move down. I've lost trust.

And frankly, I'd be nervous about money in European banks now, given that the EU thought this was an OK move and in fact made it a requirement. If they can do that to Cyprus, they can also do it to Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Whoever.

And I agree -- the US is quite capable of doing this as well. Through FATCA, they've already put in place measures designed to steal significant amounts of money from their expatriates (about 7 million folks) through arbitrary and Draconian fines for minor examples of non-compliance that revolve around the bizarre forms you're expected to complete. What's interesting about FATCA is it will steal money not just from the Americans who live in other places, but indirectly from the national economies of the countries in which they all live. Where's the outrage from those countries?

I think we're in for major volatility over the next few years (and I'm tired of reading financial media reports about how the economy is improving -- what a crock!).



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4912 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
New Zealand seems to like the idea - they are considering the same course of action. Not many Cypriots on this forum, but we have some Kiwis - what do you guys think of it?

It's Green party scare tactics, I doubt the governing National party would do something like this, they'd be out the following election if they tried.

All of the big high street banks operating in NZ are Australian owned, so I'm not sure how this would work in NZ anyway, NZ account holders might be covered by there parent bank and the Australia deposit insurance. There are only 2 NZ owned banks, both fairly small.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
I doubt the governing National party would do something like this

Thankfully, at present I don't think that there is any need to consider anything like it in New Zealand.

As far as I am aware, the Australian Government's Deposit Insurance scheme introduced in response to the GFC was time limited to two years and then only up to a maximum of two million dollars. This was reflected in interest rates offered on deposits at the time and for investments over longer terms or larger amounts different rules applied because the Government, understandably, did not wish to write a blank cheque. Insurance on amounts over two million is and was optional, though in practice the banks would encourage it because they benefit.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting arrow (Reply 3):
The money people put in their savings accounts is after-tax money and it's there to make a little (fully taxable) interest (very little these days) and provide some future financial security. Governments everywhere encourage people to do this because the alternative is for the state to go the "cradle to grave" route which has been, I hope, largely discredited.

Not really. Cypriotic banks have the reputation of being a bit dodgy and not asking too much where the money invested in them came from. Due to this Cyprus has rthe reputation of being a tax haven, where tax evaders bring their illegal moneys, as well as a place for money laundering for criminal gangs.

Jan


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4896 times:

Government isn't in debt, the country is - so who should pay that debt off? The citizens of that country, obviously.

The bailout agreement requires a quick reduction in overall debt held by the country, and the way the government has come up with is a windfall tax rather than a monthly tax.

Come on Cyprus, it's time to pay your obligations!


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7118 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4888 times:

My bigger question is in spite of the supposed leaks, who exactly came up with this idea, and no I'm not buying that Cyprus politicians came up with it without prodding / leading.
Now let's see Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, France or any of the other major players in the debt service dilema come up or mention doing something similar.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 8):

The stuff that I have read explains that there is a huge amount of money stored in unstructured savings accounts in the country that arent currently taxed to any real value, with Cyprus being somewhat of a grey area tax haven to some degree - the idea (I don't know where it came from originally) was to capture taxation of that untapped fund.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Cypriotic banks have the reputation of being a bit dodgy

Every used car dealer in the world has a reputation of being dodgy. But the proposed tax did not distinguish between those who were honest workers putting a bit of money aside for the old age, workers temporarily located in Cyprus who needed a bank account to receive their pay, or alleged Russian mafia laundering money. It is for this reason that the UK Government took the unprecedented step of guaranteeing that army/navy/air force and other personnel would be compensated if the "theft" went ahead.

Quoting moo (Reply 7):
The citizens of that country, obviously.

The banks have exposure - i.e. the banks have debts. Why should the "citizens" pay? If you borrow more money than you can afford to repay, the bank makes little or no check to see that you can pay, why should someone else forego their retirement income?

The problem with your glib solution is that others are held responsible for the negligence of those who should know better. A major part of the problem is not that residents of Cyprus have borrowed too much, but that Cypriot banks have loaned more overseas than they can cover. Why should an old age pensioner in Limassol or an RAF maintenance worker in Akrotiri be punished because a billionaire in another part of the world wishes to deny responsibility?


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3909 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4869 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):

The answer to my "glib solution" is for those citizens to keep government spending in check.

This bailout is not about rescuing the banks, it's about rescuing the government from its debts. The government spent on behalf of the citizens, so the citizens are liable.


User currently offlinearrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4861 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Not really. Cypriotic banks have the reputation of being a bit dodgy and not asking too much where the money invested in them came from. Due to this Cyprus has rthe reputation of being a tax haven, where tax evaders bring their illegal moneys, as well as a place for money laundering for criminal gangs.

I understand that -- but not all Cypriot depositors are that "dodgy." And if you are going to single out jurisdictions that don't ask enough questions about depositors as "tax havens" then you have to put the US in that camp as well. There's something like $20 trillion in foreign investment in the US, and about $3 trillion of that is in the form of bank accounts in places like Florida, California, Nevada, and Delaware.

Those banks also don't ask any questions of their depositors, and the interest that money earns in the US is tax-free, and not reported to the IRS. Foreign depositors are guaranteed privacy. There may well be lots of "dirty" money in Cypriot banks -- but there's lots of "dirty" money in US banks too.

So, if a wealth tax on Cypriot depositors can be justified by the "dirty money" argument, then I guess the same wealth tax should be applied to US banks, based on the "dirty money" argument.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 11):
This bailout is not about rescuing the banks, it's about rescuing the government from its debts. The government spent on behalf of the citizens, so the citizens are liable.

Actually what happened in this case was that the Cypriot banks got themselves heavily involved in pre-crisis Greece and got burned when the Greek financial crisis surfaced. Similarly the Irish banks gambled heavily on the I rish real estate market and got burned (as did some German banks, which gamled on the American real estate market).
You could say that the savers were attracted by the high yield promised by the Cypriot banks as long as the economy was going through the bubble. Now that the bubble has burst, the banks are blackmailing the government that if they would go bankrupt millions of savers would lose thzeir retirement money, if they wouldn´t get a bailout from the government. Now the Cypriot government doesn´t have the money to bail out the banks by themselves, so they need support by the EU. The choice fror the savers in Cypriot banks is either to lose 10% (but this only applies to big savings accounts) or to lose everything if the banks go bankrupt.

Jan


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4856 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 11):
This bailout is not about rescuing the banks,

Dig deeper.

A lot of the problem is linked to supporting the Greek banks. Cypriot financial institutions were major bond-holders for Greek debt, i.e. the problem is not that ordinary people in Cyprus are profligate. The aim was to raise 5.8 billion euro ($7.6 billion) to recapitalize banks and service debt.

A lot of disinformation has been published about Russian oligarchs laundering money but even if that was true (and it may be) how does that make the ordinary worker in Cyprus liable?

What we seem to be experiencing is pressure from banks to get Governments to underwrite their debts, reinforced by pressure from the EU and pushing fringe members to cough up to protect those in the core areas. Punish Cyprus to protect banks in the stronger EU countries. This has little, if anything, to do with wastrel Cypriots living it up. Why else would the British Government move to protect its citizens working in Cyprus?

[Edited 2013-03-20 11:33:07]

[Edited 2013-03-20 11:34:28]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8825 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
What we seem to be experiencing is pressure from banks to get Governments to underwrite their debts, reinforced by pressure from the EU and pushing fringe members to cough up to protect those in the core areas. Punish Cyprus to protect banks in the stronger EU countries. This has little, if anything, to do with wastrel Cypriots living it up. Why else would the British Government move to protect its citizens working in Cyprus?

All good points but it dances around the central issue. With the EU fully behind this confiscation of assets - the message is clear:

In the EU, private property is NOT sacrosanct.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
In the EU, private property is NOT sacrosanct.

Has it ever been anywhere? The very notion of taxes on any kind of property assumes otherwise. A basic premise of a property tax is that you hold property under some sort of licence and can be taxed upon it for the "greater good", be that buying B52s or paying pollies salaries.

Of greater interest would be proposals to not only deal with the immediate crisis but to ensure than innocent parties are affected in future. I freely admit that I do not know how the problem (and I don't mean the immediate issue of Cyprus) can be resolved. But I do note that those who assume they do have the answer, never go further than somebody else should pay. Why is that that those who incur the debt should be exempt from any pain? Remember that those who accrue debt are not necessarily those who wish to.

If you wish to buy the latest Lamborghini but can't afford it, why should I pay simply because we live in the same country or share the same birth date?


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

Quoting arrow (Reply 3):
And frankly, I'd be nervous about money in European banks now, given that the EU thought this was an OK move and in fact made it a requirement. If they can do that to Cyprus, they can also do it to Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Whoever.

What they basically said to all bank account holders in the problematic states of the EZ was "get your money out of your accounts ASAP", this can happen to you too. They placed the foundations for a huge bank run. Per usual, politicians who have no clue and do not think of repercussions before opening their mouths. The fact that the EU political elite though this was a great idea says a lot about the intellect of all the people moving the strings during the crisis.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):

Not really. Cypriotic banks have the reputation of being a bit dodgy and not asking too much where the money invested in them came from. Due to this Cyprus has rthe reputation of being a tax haven, where tax evaders bring their illegal moneys, as well as a place for money laundering for criminal gangs.

There are other tax havens where people stash untaxed wealth, sometimes of questionable origin . Switzerland, Luxembourg, Channel Islands, even London. But I forgot, this is where N.Europeans stash their wealth so those tax havens are fine, right?

The foreign press has been to hasty to label all Cypriot bank account holders as money launderers and tax-haven seekers. In addition to that, every single Russian that wanted to place their money in Cypriot banks is apparently an oligarch money launderer. When you need to clean up the banking system, you investigate and act accordingly, you don't punish all depositors in a country!

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
A lot of the problem is linked to supporting the Greek banks. Cypriot financial institutions were major bond-holders for Greek debt, i.e. the problem is not that ordinary people in Cyprus are profligate. The aim was to raise 5.8 billion euro ($7.6 billion) to recapitalize banks and service debt.

Exactly. Cyprus and its banks were forced to accept a haircut to its Greek bonds, which created a huge hole in their finances that now needs a bailout to be solved.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):

A lot of disinformation has been published about Russian oligarchs laundering money but even if that was true (and it may be) how does that make the ordinary worker in Cyprus liable?

It doesn't. The plan would also take money from all depositors, regardless of the source of that money (which can range from disability/unemployment benefits to pensions). It also didn't look at whether a specific bank was healthy or not. A bank customer who had just been given a loan would have part of it confiscated and at the same time would be asked to pay all of it (plus interest of course) back. How crazy is that?

Quoting par13del (Reply 8):
My bigger question is in spite of the supposed leaks, who exactly came up with this idea, and no I'm not buying that Cyprus politicians came up with it without prodding / leading.

An interesting article on how things unraveled:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013.../cyprus-bank-bailout-nicos-germany

After the summit, it was a he said/she said discussion once again. I wonder, aren't official minutes kept in such cases?

Quoting moo (Reply 9):
the idea (I don't know where it came from originally) was to capture taxation of that untapped fund.

An approach they could have taken would be to tax the interest given on these accounts, which would not go against the unwritten banking rule of "do not touch depositor money" and would not create such an issue on bank trust. I just want to wait and see how things will unravel once Cypriot banks finally open for business. I expect a huge capital flight out of Cyprus so whether or not the parliament approves the measure, the Cypriot economy is toast and no matter how many bailouts come their way, the Cypriots will never be able to pay it back just by relying on the other sector of their economy, which is tourism.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2364 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Reminds me of something we already had some decades ago in Europe...

...the government forcing people to buy war bonds.      

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
In the EU, private property is NOT sacrosanct.

The guarantee of private property is the smaller problem here.

The problem is that Frau Merkel has, through her speaker, said that all bank accounts would be safe. This has reassured the population and enterprises so that they keep their money available to the financial markets. Now the proposal that Cyprus should grab a percentage of all bank accounts is sending tremors through Europe, and will lead the population to withdraw their money rather early than too late.

Liquidity problems anyone? After all, you hardly get any interest anymore on bank accounts. People keeping their € at home? It will be en vogue again...


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 17):
Switzerland, Luxembourg, Channel Islands, even London. But I forgot, this is where N.Europeans stash their wealth so those tax havens are fine, right?

I haven´t heard that they are in trouble. Also, you don´t know about the German customs checks at the borders between Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland. Switzerland, Luxembourg, Austria and the Channel Islands are pretty much out of fashion as tax havens today due to international cooperation.

Jan


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
I haven´t heard that they are in trouble.

I'm taking about the issue of pointing fingers at countries because apparently they accept lots of money in their banks without caring about the origin and about taxing them. Whether they are in trouble is irrelevant. Cyprus is NOT in trouble because it hosts foreign wealth, they have been doing this for decades and never kept it a secret.It is in trouble due to its exposure to Greek debt. The fact that it hosts so much foreign capital just makes it impossible for them to deal with saving their banks and it is not the cause. But, I guess the mantra of the naughty southerner has to somewhat be made to stick in the Cyprus case as well. How else are they going to explain it? Say that the haircut of Greek bonds was a disaster and all it did was move the debt elsewhere?

Asking for punitive measures that will destroy the Cypriot economy as much as a default would is not the answer and follows no logic whatsoever - let alone the bank run and capital flight that has been initiated. As a German taxpayer who is being told that is funding this bailout, you should be demanding that Cyprus is left in a position to be able to pay back at some point. Throw the Cypriot economy in the trashcan and you can kiss the bailout money goodbye in advance.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
Also, you don´t know about the German customs checks

Apparently Germany needs to look internally as well, based on what I have been reading about domestic money laundering:
http://www.dw.de/germany-a-safe-haven-for-money-laundering/a-16343313

Quote:

According to a study published by the Tax Justice Network that examined 70 countries, Germany is one of the biggest havens for tax evasion - ranking even before Switzerland, the Cayman Islands, Luxembourg or Jersey.

Yup, those places are indeed getting out of fashion.

[Edited 2013-03-20 14:50:15]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26909 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4718 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 17):
An approach they could have taken would be to tax the interest given on these accounts, which would not go against the unwritten banking rule of "do not touch depositor money" and would not create such an issue on bank trust. I just want to wait and see how things will unravel once Cypriot banks finally open for business. I expect a huge capital flight out of Cyprus so whether or not the parliament approves the measure, the Cypriot economy is toast and no matter how many bailouts come their way, the Cypriots will never be able to pay it back just by relying on the other sector of their economy, which is tourism.

That could have been an avenue they could have gone down for sure.

There was no way the people were going to accept that deal and neither should the everyday people have to. The people to target are the ones with numerous accounts of laundered money that is mostly Russian. The Cypriot government are to blame for alot of this also. As usual and the same was in Greece its the everyday innocent citizen on the street that suffers.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
Now the proposal that Cyprus should grab a percentage of all bank accounts is sending tremors through Europe, and will lead the population to withdraw their money rather early than too late.

Tremors for sure. After this no one in any European country can feel safe. Even my own bank account is not safe anymore.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
Also, you don´t know about the German customs checks at the borders between Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerland. Switzerland, Luxembourg, Austria and the Channel Islands are pretty much out of fashion as tax havens today due to international cooperation.

If you think that tax evasion and secret accounts are gone from these countries you live in a dream world.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

If I had money I wouldn't have money but a loan on a house, can't take a haircut that easily.

Quoting arrow (Reply 3):
It's one thing for a savings account "theft" program to be put forward by little Cyprus; it's quite another for the idea to be put forward by the EU as a condition of bailout. The money people put in their savings accounts is after-tax money and it's there to make a little (fully taxable) interest (very little these days) and provide some future financial security. Governments everywhere encourage people to do this because the alternative is for the state to go the "cradle to grave" route which has been, I hope, largely discredited.

Tax is one of the problems. There is little to none. And we can see here but also in "northern" Iceland and Ireland, that such policy doesn't prevent banks from going bust. It's high time, especially in the eurozone, to equalize taxes, or at least have small brackets, from VAT to capital gains and corporate taxes.

Quoting par13del (Reply 8):
My bigger question is in spite of the supposed leaks, who exactly came up with this idea, and no I'm not buying that Cyprus politicians came up with it without prodding / leading.
Now let's see Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, France or any of the other major players in the debt service dilema come up or mention doing something similar.

Yes, I wonder too, and I don't think politicians are to blame, unless the objective was to sink the Cypriot government, that is. Politicians would have seen right away that this was a very bad idea, I suspect bureaucrats.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4634 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Cypriotic banks have the reputation of being a bit dodgy

Every used car dealer in the world has a reputation of being dodgy. But the proposed tax did not distinguish between those who were honest workers putting a bit of money aside for the old age, workers temporarily located in Cyprus who needed a bank account to receive their pay, or alleged Russian mafia laundering money.

On the way home (hooray for podcasts!) I heard from a Cypriot MP of the ruling party that the higher 10% tax on the accounts with more than EUR 100,000 was done so with the intention of targeting the money launderers.

The Cypriots themselves know/admit/proclaim that their banking sector is a tax haven, and this MP stated one thing that's a key point in the current behind the scenes negotiations is how to keep this money in Cyprus, because if it all leaves at once that too will cause the banks to collapse!

One should say then why did they do one thing to make those people nervous, and the thought was that all would rather take a 10% haircut rather than lose it all via bankruptcy.

The MP said quite clearly that the Cyprus President only agreed to the "tax" at 4AM because he was being told by "the Germans" that all ECB funds would be stopped before the banks opened Tuesday at 8AM.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
It is for this reason that the UK Government took the unprecedented step of guaranteeing that army/navy/air force and other personnel would be compensated if the "theft" went ahead.

Now that's an "under-reported" fact.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
The banks have exposure - i.e. the banks have debts. Why should the "citizens" pay?

I'm no expert, but from what I understand, if the banks fail, there is no economy. The failing banks could all close, but of course then they take 100% of their depositor's "money" with them so there's no money for new (local or international) banks to come in and manage, and without money there's no (local or international) trade. The Cypriot Pound could be re-instated for local trade, but no foreign entity would be interested in trading them.

The depositor's "money" doesn't really exist. The banks do not have cash or any other form of asset that could be used to repay the depositors.

The government's (other) problem is that all the losses in the economy in general and the banking sector in particular mean it's not collecting enough tax revenues to pay for the greatly increased social burdens, and because of this, no one is willing to buy their government bonds because they don't see how Cyprus can pay them back in the future.

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):
And if you are going to single out jurisdictions that don't ask enough questions about depositors as "tax havens" then you have to put the US in that camp as well.

Discussion of other country's banking situations is quite off-topic and should be in another thread, IMHO, otherwise this degrades into a "But Mommy, Johnny's doing it too!" kind of discussion.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Now that the bubble has burst, the banks are blackmailing the government that if they would go bankrupt millions of savers would lose their retirement money

Blackmail or not, it's the truth.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 21):
The people to target are the ones with numerous accounts of laundered money that is mostly Russian.

I suppose, but if all the large account holders (Russian or otherwise) take their money out the banks will collapse just as surely, and it's not at all clear if the large account holders have violated any EU or Cypriot laws, even if their own government might ask them exactly where all that money came from.

However it seems to be driving the Germans crazy that "their" money would be used make sure that Russian tax dodgers don't lose their money. The Cypriot MP's response to this was that Cypriot banking practices were well known when Cyprus entered the EU.

Quoting lewis (Reply 17):
The plan would also take money from all depositors

The last form of the rule was going to be nothing taken from accounts under EUR 20k, then 6.75% for 20k to 100k and then 10% for 100k and above.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4618 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):

The last form of the rule was going to be nothing taken from accounts under EUR 20k, then 6.75% for 20k to 100k and then 10% for 100k and above.

Still wouldn't look at whether:

-The account is held in a healthy bank.
-The account is owned by a Cypriot national or a foreign national.
-The account's balance came from a recently obtained loan, paychech, retirement, life savings, already-taxed income.
-Whether it is a corporate or personal account.
-The source of the capital is dubious or not.

Whatever the final % was, along with the thresholds, the capital flight and bank run would still occur. We will just see what happens when the banks open, whenever that is.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
The Cypriot MP's response to this was that Cypriot banking practices were well known when Cyprus entered the EU.

The practices have pretty much been the same for the past four decades, never causing a problem for Cyprus. Also something to consider, those same Cypriot banks that are now at the brink of collapse passed the so called EU "stress tests" performed after the crisis started with flying colors.


25 NAV20 : It's pretty clear that the wealthier EU countries - particularly Germany, I expect - are getting fed up with pouring money into the weaker ones; money
26 okie : Exactly. Which bore the question what are the tax rates. 20% at the low end 35% at the 60K mark. 14.3% Social Services. Roughly 5% (mid rate) on prop
27 Revelation : Not sure where you're going with this. If you're saying the approach should be to only tax foriegn nationals or corporations having funds that can be
28 lewis : If you had read the news reports, you would have seen that the only reason the troika suggested involving depositors it is because Cyprus is a tax ha
29 Revelation : I've read lots of news reports and if there are specific other reports to add to the conversation that have credibility, please do. As above, I've re
30 offloaded : We do hear a lot about how fed up the Germans are about subsidising everyone else, but the reality is that in part thanks to the weaker EZ members, t
31 Post contains links OA260 : Indeed. Another interesting development but not surprising. (Reuters) - Piraeus Bank has been chosen to take over the Greek branches of Cypriot lende
32 Post contains links Revelation : Current news reports state that "the message coming from Brussels and Berlin is that the money has to come from the banking sector and investors who h
33 Post contains images okie : But the Germans are saying the Euro is good for a thousand years. Sorry, could not resist. The situation is not much different than the US four years
34 Post contains links NAV20 : According to this story a solution has been 'agreed':- "Politicians in Cyprus have reportedly agreed a new one-off levy on savers in order to secure a
35 okie : It is just the Bank of Cyprus and a few others that are in non recoverable issues with bad loans, real estate of all things does that ring a bell. Th
36 Dreadnought : And why should he get whacked? That money could be his life savings on which he was hoping to retire soon. If the government can prove that the money
37 okie : It is called taking money from those who have it and giving it to those who do not. It is called a tax and when they have no money to take then I sus
38 Dreadnought : It's called double-taxation. People earned money, paid taxes, and put a little away each year, believing that they have paid their due, as far as tax
39 Post contains images BMI727 : To be fair, the US does the same to dead people. They just complain a bit less. And set up a veritable death spiral for Eurozone countries. Already d
40 Pyrex : Exactly right. The reason people have money in Swiss bank accounts is precisely for this reason - preservation of principal. Because they know that,
41 MillwallSean : Hmm, and if you read up the germans, the dutch, the finns all explain what a weak and strong Euro is. And when you get its 1.3 or 1.4 as it has been
42 OA260 : So you are saying that in Northern Europe this does not exist right?
43 par13del : Its Sunday and some form of deal has been agreed in Cyprus where they will be raiding the bank accounts of depositors, president flying to Brussels to
44 Post contains images NAV20 : My guess is that said 'framers' are just in a state of panic, par13del. Running around in circles........ One question, though. It's a long time sinc
45 par13del : One thing with politicians, they always look out for the masses, in this case they know that the masses cannot up and leave the country, so yes they
46 MD11Engineer : On the other hand the depositor expected an interest on this money if everything would have gone well. With Cyprus being a tax haven (and therefore v
47 NAV20 : True enough, par13del. But I should have said that, if I lived in Cyprus, I wouldn't necessarily leave the country; I'd just make sure that my saving
48 par13del : So you believe that the government of Cyprus created a tax haven for banks without putting in any benefit for themselves??, the government is the pub
49 Post contains links Revelation : Seems the current state of play is: Ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21916102 No doubt, but the money must be raised... The underpinnings h
50 BMI727 : Ridiculous that the Steve Miller Law looks like it will actually happen. I'd expect an idea like this from some raging socialist, but usually there's
51 par13del : I agree the patient has been sick for a while, but do you propose euthanasia versus treatment? In this case, is the patient really dying or are those
52 Quokkas : The problem that I have with a general "creaming off" is that it makes no distinction between good and bad banks - i.e. those banks that can meet thei
53 Revelation : Despite what various charters probably say, the 'doctors' in this case aren't altruists. Earlier info I've posted says that Dr. Germany is steering t
54 par13del : One less voice to sit at the discussion table and one more person to care for????
55 AR385 : As of a few hours ago, no one can withdraw more than 100 Euro per day from any account in Cyprus, initially, for all of next week.
56 BMI727 : Wow. To me, this is just beyond the pale. I don't see how anyone can completely trust any EU bank in the future when the precedent of a freeze and sk
57 OA260 : Well long gone are the days when the saying was '' Your money is safer in the banks''. Thats for sure. Nothing would surprise me now. Anyone in any E
58 par13del : How long can they maintain that restriction, the key is what is going to happen when they remove and or raise the limits, a liquidity crisis should b
59 BMI727 : For the actual stock markets, I agree. They love stability, or at least the appearance of stability. Remember how the markets rallied when Bear Stear
60 Post contains links OA260 : So they did a deal ! Cyprus Rescue Deal Wins Eurozone Approval The plan will see the creation of a "good bank" and a "bad bank". The Popular Bank of C
61 okie : Thanks OA260 It does not indicate in the article the amount of money in Laiki above 100,000 per customer. Should we guess the the number is above 5bn
62 Aesma : Quick poll : Do you actually save in the form of money on a bank account ? It seems silly unless there is a great interest rate, which doesn't happen
63 par13del : So these people do have funds to take care of themselves during a rainy day and it is being taken away, so what's the difference, now the government
64 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Yes (and, oddly enough, my savings account contains about $A120,000 - almost exactly Euro100,000 ). Interest rates in Australia remain at quite satis
65 Aesma : If you don't understand the difference between losing 10% of your savings compared to 30% of your income, I can't help you. The consequences for the
66 AR385 : The US has had the good sense not to enter into daft agreements where it relinquishes the control of its monetary policy.
67 Post contains images BMI727 : I'm pretty sure most of my grandmother's money is saved in CD's, but I'm not certain. Foreign account holders didn't. So, just because you think some
68 mariner : I wonder what would happen if there was no rescue package and if Cyrus had to leave the EZ and/or default. I'm sure it would be ugly, but part of me t
69 Pyrex : You're clearly not looking at the right places... And still has way too many...
70 na : So someone with 99999 in the bank will still have 99999 now, while the one with 100001 will have 70000? Unfair math. Lets hope its mostly Russian Mill
71 OA260 : Indeed . The good thing is the poorest of society have been protected and that Im thankful for. Say you have life savings of only 2-3K then Im glad t
72 par13del : Biggest issue I take from the deal is the quote below from the BBC story on the issue, thank the stars gun boat diplomacy is no longer practised. "One
73 OA260 : A fairer way would be allow 100K then anything else over that is taken into account. So if you had 100001 only 1 would be taxed at the rate.
74 Post contains links NAV20 : The press reports aren't clear yet. But my guess is that it will indeed only be the amount over E100,000 that will be taxed at 'around' 30%. Deposits
75 Dreadnought : Resolve? I'll bet anyone that, 5 years from now, Cyprus will be just as much in the crapper as it is now, and they will be thinking about having anot
76 Aesma : It would be a procession of aid instead, because Cyprus' economy is not uncompetitive, it is nonexistent outside finance. And yes, I'm discovering th
77 Post contains links mariner : So what happened?: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...uss-banking-status/article9938368/ "Once a thriving country with virtually no unemployment
78 offloaded : "Cyprus deal is model for future bailout" reports The Indepenendent quoting European officials. As I have bank accounts in Portugal, albeit not at the
79 Dreadnought : I'd start looking at a bank in Liechtenstein. Not necessarily a secret numbered account, just an account in a bank in a country that will never do su
80 AR385 : This "deal" is bound to cause serious trouble in Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy and any other country requiring a bailout in the near future. It´s al
81 NAV20 : In fairness, Dreadnought, it was the journalist who used the word 'resolve,' not me! I agree that Cyprus - and a number of other countries with weak
82 AR385 : Not only the central bank. They would require a fiscal policy union, if you like. That goes along the lines of giving up most sovereignity, as you sa
83 NAV20 : The only difference between us, AR385, is that I reckon the idea of the Euro (saddling 'weak' economies with a 'hard' currency) IS useless...........
84 AR385 : No, NAV20, you are right and I share your view. It was a bad idea from the start. I just don´t get why they doggedly want to stick with it.
85 Post contains links NAV20 : Fair enough, misunderstanding, AR385! One advantage we have in Australia is that we're basically 'a day ahead' of the rest of the world - it's afterno
86 AR385 : Interesting article, NAV20, thanks. I don´t see how a Cypriot economic meltdown will be averted in say, 5 or 6 months´ time. This is just a band-aid
87 MD11Engineer : So who should pay for bailing out the affected banks, which got themselves into trouble through no fault but their own? We could also let the banks g
88 Revelation : At this point in the game, having the failed economies move to their own currencies pretty much takes them out of the international economy and would
89 JJJ : There was such a mechanism, the euro stability pact which started with a deficit target of 3% (and debt ratio of max 60%) to be progressively lowered
90 Post contains links NAV20 : Since when was there ever 'one Europe,' Revelation? Europe's had the Napoleonic Wars, the Crimean War, the Franco-Prussian War, and two 'world' wars
91 par13del : Well did all the banks in the EU suffer the same fate, some of the blame has to fall on them and their depositors. When the entire nation is used to
92 Post contains links Quokkas : Took a while for me to get back to it, but here is the announcement: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...prus-savings-levy-british-deposits And ma
93 Post contains images NAV20 : Only thing is, Quokkas, with respect, that article is dated 17th. March. People with less than E100,000 in the banks will no longer be subject to any
94 Quokkas : I am aware of that but posted the link to support what was described by another poster as "a under-reported fact". I don't think it was the intention
95 Post contains images NAV20 : Fair enough, mate........
96 Aesma : Protecting military personnel is one thing, but that doesn't apply to British citizens in general. Yesterday there was one on the French TV news, sayi
97 Revelation : Interesting to see how the discipline they failed to impose on themselves is now causing such mayhem in smaller economies because the money speculato
98 BMI727 : You have to wonder just how much sovereignty European countries will be willing to give up. Are people really going to be okay with cutting the milit
99 Dreadnought : If Germany pays the bills, hell yeah!
100 BMI727 : You'd think that at some point somebody might question whether or not Germany really has their best interests in mind.
101 offloaded : I wouldn't want to be a bank manager in Cyprus when the Russian clients start showing up! "Ah, Mr. Makarov and Mrs. Kalashnikov, its about your accou
102 Dreadnought : Which should in turn cause them to attempt to be more self sufficient and not become dependent on someone else paying their bills. Hmmmm, I wonder wh
103 Aesma : Actually the idea is that you can, as a country, manage things as you wish, you just have to balance the budget. Seems pretty reasonable to me. And i
104 MD11Engineer : I think the only solution is to legalise a strict separation of consumer banks for the man on the street, where he can keep his current account for hi
105 offloaded : I was looking at that Jan but then we get this: Implicit guarantee subsidy Since the full amount of the deposits and debts of "too big to fail" banks
106 MD11Engineer : Then it has to be done through legal means (no matter if the banks are moaning). It can´t be that all financial losses are in the end guaranteed by
107 BMI727 : And that idea is a concession of basic sovereignty. Two of the things countries can do is set monetary policy and create a budget, and the management
108 prebennorholm : When they joined the Euro they were willing to give up fiscal sovereignty to the ECB. When you join a club, then you stick to the club rules, or you
109 Revelation : To be fair, EU rules don't set a budget, they limit the amount of debt that can be carried as a percentage of the nation's GDP. They don't tell them
110 Post contains links NAV20 : Here's 'tonight's' contribution from 'tomorrow's' Melbourne Age:- "The voice of Cypriot accountant Katy Michaelidou is shaky as she contemplates the f
111 OA260 : Well for sure there are going to be huge changes of lifestyle in cyprus. It was always a very expensive place compared to Greece. They relied on and
112 BMI727 : Exactly, which is why if I were European I would be extremely anti-Euro and anti-EU. Some of the things states have to cede control of go too far. Th
113 Aesma : They can't force the tax, the parliament will vote on it. The simple truth is that the alternative is bankruptcy of the banks and the state. I haven't
114 Post contains images Revelation : In all regards except the outcome, that's a terrible analogy. Everyone knows that's not sustainable. It's not clear if that has been cut back enough
115 Post contains links and images OA260 : Oh they will for sure. I quite fancy a nice week in the Intercontinental Aphrodite Hills Looks like the offers are already in Free HB would be unhear
116 par13del : It is a requirement of this bail out that it not be put to a vote.
117 Post contains links NAV20 : Here's the next step - literally shiploads of Euros arriving in Nicosia; but Joe Public will only be allowed to withdraw E300 a day:- "When banks in C
118 BMI727 : That is a tacit yet unmistakable admission that the banking system has been recklessly disemboweled and now the officials are doing what they can to
119 Dreadnought : The idea is to stop people from taking their money out to escape the tax. But I understand that there were no such limitations on withdrawals from ov
120 par13del : If such is the case one would expect some move to re-institute the tax on the lower deposit levels, I would expect it to go way below the 100K level
121 Post contains links NAV20 : Have to disagree to an extent, Dreadnought. I think they're anxious to stop even people with savings under the E100,000 level taking too much of thei
122 par13del : The issue here may be that since other countries in the EU which use the Euro did not have its citizens doing a run on their banks after the grab was
123 Arrow : The limits are designed to prevent a one-day run on the banks that might collapse them all. A more interesting question, going forward, will be how m
124 BMI727 : Sure, but that assumes that people forget about this in one day. I don't think they will. Not the smart people anyway.
125 Arrow : I agree. When I say a one-day run, all I'm saying is that if the controls were lifted, that would happen. The controls will be in place for a long lo
126 Post contains links NAV20 : Pretty sad 'human interest' story here. Brings home what that (far too low) 'E100,000 limit' looks like doing to a lot of relatively-ordinary people:-
127 Revelation : I feel that the limit is too low and that the EU is setting a very bad precedent for the future of the Euro, but one does have to ask why one would p
128 Post contains links iakobos : http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w...rticles_wsite1_1_29/03/2013_490679 As if the Cypriots didn't know how the system works...and this is (likely) o
129 MD11Engineer : I could also say that he is lucky. If the bank hadn´t been saved and went bankrupt he really would have lost everything, not just 30% of his savings
130 Post contains links Revelation : That's a workable figure, although the exact percent isn't known. Ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21922110 Of course, one might think that a
131 Post contains links NAV20 : On the evidence of previous articles, Reuters appear to have pretty good sources. But, given the consequences of this rumoured massive reduction in ba
132 Post contains links par13del : Agree As per the link below from the BBC, they are now talking about 60%, my question, how is it legal to make someone an investor in a business with
133 BMI727 : They've already frozen accounts and stolen money out of them. I'm guessing that legality isn't a consideration.
134 par13del : Legality may be an issue but the laws of the country may prevent a filing of wrong until you can prove the extent of your loss. Add the time for the
135 Post contains links NAV20 : I expect that the matter is now classed as a case of twin 'bank failures,' par13del. Banks do occasionally fail, and the depositors can only expect t
136 Dreadnought : But here is the issue. In a normal (bank) business, in case of bankruptcy (or liquidation), The Shareholders get wiped out first, then bondholders, t
137 MD11Engineer : Actually according to the German Spiegel magazine, originally the Cypriot PM proposed to fleece the smallscale depositors first (which would probably
138 Dreadnought : Whether German or Cypriot, it makes no difference. My point is that the normal procedures for a bankruptcy have been hijacked by politicians for thei
139 Post contains links NAV20 : I think the basic problem was that Cyprus was only offered a 'partial' bailout, Dreadnought; a mere E10B.. I have no idea why it was so low - vast am
140 offloaded : I would agree with that. Politically inspired bolloxology from day 1. It is interesting to see trends when clients pay us. Cash has returned in a big
141 NAV20 : Interesting new angle, offloaded, thanks. Just as a matter of interest, are people all still dealing in Euros? Or are some of them opting to use othe
142 Post contains images OA260 : Yep cash is king I told my Family to get their money out of Greece and the Euro zone when this crisis hit. Now safely and legally in UK banks in poun
143 Aesma : That's because 10 billions is half the GDP of Cyprus. No single bailout was as big as that relative to the economy, and only Greece got more in the e
144 PanHAM : The € is the legal tender n the Euro zone. Payments in other currencies would always be based on the € price converted into Dollars or Pounds or
145 Post contains images OA260 : Dont forget Germany has hosted EUR140 billion in Russian ''black'' money also .
146 PanHAM : Germany definately not, may be German Banks have illegally earned money in foreign accounts. However, since each and every deposit made in a German ba
147 par13del : Based on some quarters, it is being done to preserve the Euro and not have one nation leave which may have a domino effect on the others. Cyprus did
148 NAV20 : Basically, PanHAM, because of a 'design flaw' in the whole concept of the Euro. The Euro was accepted as the single currency of all the Eurozone coun
149 PanHAM : You come close but not near. The EU has 27 nations, 17 have elected to join the € so far. There is a European Central bank, right here in Frankfurt
150 Post contains images OA260 : Really I would read your newspapers and media over the next few weeks my friend. Some very interesting revelations await about money laundering and t
151 PanHAM : FAZ and WELT on a daily basis. but the other poster said that "Germany has hosted 140 bn" . Now. German banks are not Germany and the country, the Bun
152 BMI727 : You can bet they'll find somewhere now. And never underestimate the power of ill gotten gains to stimulate an economy. You should have considered tha
153 Aesma : Well, I seem to remember Merkel doing all in her power to exempt a lot of Germany's bank from the new capital rules (CRD IV/Basel III).
154 Post contains images NAV20 : The only area where we appear to differ, PanHAM, is that the ECB may be be called a 'central bank,' but it doesn't have the powers that sovereign cen
155 AR385 : The way things are going, NAV20 you should add "Barter" to that list. What will most probably end up happening is something along the lines of what P
156 PanHAM : calm down. The first name made public was that of Gunther sachs who deceased 2 years ago. Now, Gunther was a Swiss citizen by birth, he may have had
157 Post contains links par13del : Not Cyprus, the only reason I quote the article is the comment that even though a court of law in Portugal has found some of the cuts illegal the ECB
158 offloaded : We accept cheques in GBP, but as we are based in Portugal 99% of our bills (IATA / tax / VAT / social security payments etc) are in EUR, as PanHAM sa
159 PanHAM : You can pay an invoice to a UK company in Pounds, evenm from a Pound account, a UK company can pay an invoice to the € zone from a € account with
160 Aesma : Isn't it a "socialist" that got Germany where it is today ? Granted, that cost him his job. From 2002 to 2012 the French "conservatives" were in powe
161 offloaded : Absolutely, but it is the "panic management" approach to what is going on now that is of major concern. Here is a small example. In 2008, they change
162 PanHAM : that was a Social Democrat and rather on the right wing. The same party wants to set back the watches if they win the election. After all, the highes
163 Post contains images offloaded : Very efficient. Very German. Never work here.
164 BMI727 : Why the hell are names on bank accounts being made public anyway? That's a big problem in and of itself. No it does not. You cannot have a country (o
165 PanHAM : Unless you ask for help from that country Until they go broke because of that policy The € is not the problem. The problem is that some national ec
166 BMI727 : It still does not allow you to help yourself to someone else's money and justify it by saying that they're Russian. It's economic discrimination to t
167 Aesma : In the end it's Cyprus that decided to do this. They could have just let the banks go bankrupt and people would have lost everything because the coun
168 par13del : Well, some of the insurance was most likely re-insured by companies outside of Cyprus, all the banks would not have failed - if a bail out is in the
169 PanHAM : Aes,ma has n answered that already in principle. Foirget about the Russian, They are outstanding since they are the majority of the depositors in Cyp
170 Post contains links NAV20 : Long - but pretty clear and readable - article by George Soros that provides a pretty clear explanation of how the 'Eurocrisis' arose:- "The euro cris
171 PanHAM : Mr. Soros is, what politicians over here call a "grasshopper". It looks like he and his funds are over exposed and the only way to saqve his @.. is Ge
172 NAV20 : Agree entirely about Germany being 'over-exposed,' PanHAM. Looks like Slovenia will be the next country holding out the begging-bowl; then Portugal,
173 Revelation : So the EUR has a problem: it is the national currency for some nations whose economies can't function with a strong currency. Ok, then, we'll justify
174 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like the wheels just fell off the Eurozone ambulance:- "Cyprus must take on an extra €5.5bn in the cost of its bail-out, a sum equivalent to a
175 Post contains links and images NAV20 : PS Link above doesn't seem to work - this one does (so far) :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...n-as-EU-IMF-refuses-extra-aid.html
176 OA260 : You could be right. This is bad news for everyone as the Euro has a good chance of crashing making it worthless against the USD and GBP. People will
177 Aesma : Well, you might not agree with his "solution", but what he says is still true. Merkel's solution doesn't work and it will continue to not work. Do yo
178 Post contains links NAV20 : Exactly so, in my view, Aesma. What's more, the way the Cypriots have been treated virtually ensures a Eurozone-wide banking crisis - basically every
179 PanHAM : I lack the time to go into that deeper but as mentioned before, Mr. Soros is not an authority on this matter as he is simply trying to influence inves
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