Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Avoiding Seizure Of Pres. Aircraft? Tango-01  
User currently offlineAeroflot001 From Argentina, joined Oct 2009, 400 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

The President of Argentina, Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner (CFK) ,opted not to take the presidential aircraft all the way to Rome for the inauguration of Pope Francis. Rather it landed somewhere in Morocco and CFK had a jet chartered for the remainder of the trip to Rome's Ciampino airfield.

Does anyone know where Tango-01 landed/is? Casablanca (CMN)? Pictures would be great.

Do debt collectors have the right to seize a presidential aircraft? Does it not have some form of diplomatic immunity?

If anyone can explain the exact nature of these debts that would be a plus. Thank you very much.

Both links in English and Spanish are provided below.
http://www.clarin.com/mundo/evitar-e...n-Tango-Marruecos_0_884911526.html

http://m24digital.com/en/2013/03/18/...e-jet-to-avoid-a-possible-seizure/

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6148 posts, RR: 31
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1994 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Thread starter):
If anyone can explain the exact nature of these debts that would be a plus. Thank you very much.

In simple terms:

When Argentina defaulted in 2001/2002, the government negotiated with its creditors a substancital reduction in debt. About 95% of the creditors accepted such reduction and were paid accordingly.

However, there are cetrain funds in New York mostly, whose MO is precisely to buy debt of countries in distress and then when they default, demand payment in full. They do not enter into the arrangements the rest of the creditors enter and then hold out pulling stunts like lawsuits and embargoes of assets etc. Cristina calls them Vulture funds.

These are the funds that were behind the embargo of the ARA Libertad and that the government in Argentina fears could seize the 757 Cristina uses on her travels.



MGGS
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 801 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
When Argentina defaulted in 2001/2002, the government negotiated with its creditors a substancital reduction in debt. About 95% of the creditors accepted such reduction and were paid accordingly.

You've left out the fact that Argentina also agreed that any future debt would be subordinated to this 2001/2002 issued debt, and then blatantly ignored this agreement when they issued debt again in the 2008-2011 time frame.

This issue went all the way to a US Federal Court of Appeals, which ruled in favor of the hedge funds.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

Quoting Aeroflot001 (Thread starter):
If anyone can explain the exact nature of these debts that would be a plus. Thank you very much.

You just opened a big can of worms here. Be prepared to some serious flaming by some members that think that Argentina is un-touchable and any negative issue related with the country should be discussed ever.

Like AR385 explained, the NML Elliot Capital and other similar entities had refused to accept the cut of the 70 % of the debt proposed by Argentina. There are also smaller bondholders involved, many of them Argentinians. The main course of action was through the New York Courts since the bonds are subordinated to that laws. There should be news about the result of this actions at the end of the month, since the court gave time to Argentina until March 29th - 2013, to propose a payment schedule.

Regarding your question about the creditors having the right to seize the aircraft or not, the short answer is probably NO. But as the "ARA Libertad show demonstrated", despite the action was unsuccessful in keeping the seized asset for them, they were able to put Argentina in shame worldwide, and created a lot of noise for the Argentinian government. Clearly Mss. K has worries about that, since the Tango 01 only has two flights out of Argentina since the ARA Libertad incident, one to the Chavez's funeral in Venezuela ( where there is no chance of a court doing something against her ), and now to Morocco, where there are some ties with the highest authorities of the country that made this "operation" possible.
The funny thing is, the Pope requested austerity to all, and the answer of Mss. K to that request was.... renting a private jet for the final leg to Rome...  


Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3884 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1252 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
But as the "ARA Libertad show demonstrated", despite the action was unsuccessful in keeping the seized asset for them, they were able to put Argentina in shame worldwide, and created a lot of noise for the Argentinian government.

There is also no guarantee that another countries courts would rule the same way, so it's worth a creditors throw of the dice!


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1235 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
There is also no guarantee that another countries courts would rule the same way, so it's worth a creditors throw of the dice!

Oh absolutely. But AFAIK, all the assets like Embassies, Military ships, aircraft ( I think Tango 01 is part of the Argentina Air Force fleet ), are not seizable due to UN treaties or similar. It was discussed ad nausea in the Argentinian newspapers when the ARA Libertad incident, but to be honest I don't remember the details, and I wasn't really worried about that since I live in a country without that annoying problem of creditors sniffing our possessions all over the world    



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinejoacocifuentes From Argentina, joined Sep 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1211 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
The funny thing is, the Pope requested austerity to all, and the answer of Mss. K to that request was.... renting a private jet for the final leg to Rome...  

She had to get there because she was invited by the Pope... He wanted to have his last luch as Buenos Aires' Bishop with her.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1170 times:

Quoting joacocifuentes (Reply 6):
She had to get there because she was invited by the Pope... He wanted to have his last luch as Buenos Aires' Bishop with her.

So what ?? Were all the First Class seats taken in every single flight EZE-FCO ?? The Pope itself ( a 76 y.o. man ) flew to the Conclave in Rome from Argentina in a scheduled flight, in ECONOMY. The President of Uruguay also flew as a common passenger in scheduled flights several times. She could try a gesture of humility for once, specially when The Pope is asking for it...

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1159 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
Regarding your question about the creditors having the right to seize the aircraft or not, the short answer is probably NO.

Really? Why not? Because it's owned by a government? There are no "diplomatic immunity" issues. The seizure wouldn't be by a government, it would be by an organization contracted by the creditor.

Now, you can ask the question as to whether a government would allow such a seizure. I don't think that would happen. But, stranger things have happened and money in the right hands at the right time can make for some strange circumstances.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
Really? Why not? Because it's owned by a government? There are no "diplomatic immunity" issues. The seizure wouldn't be by a government, it would be by an organization contracted by the creditor.

Like I said in an earlier reply to this thread, I don't remember the details, but in fact there is a protection ( I don't know if we can call it diplomatic immunity or not ), that makes impossible the seizure of Embassies, Military Ships and aircraft and other valuable assets owned by a state or government. I'm sure that, without that protection, NML Elliot Capital and many other creditors would take all the necessary actions to seize every possible thing from Argentina. The discussion with the ARA Libertad ship was that, being a ship for Instruction of marines, it was part of the Argentinian Navy. After two months in Ghana the court in Hamburg gave the reason to Argentina and the ship was freed.
I hope someone with a deep knowledge of how this protection work can help us...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6148 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1128 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
So what ?? Were all the First Class seats taken in every single flight EZE-FCO ??

Come on Gonzalo, even for you, that is a lame argument. She is the head of state. She has a big entourage. Most heads of state travel on a VIP plane owned by the state. What did Piñeiro travel on? Or whatever delegation he sent if he himself did not go? Did they fly LA and connect at MAD? What did Dilma take? And furthermore, yes, all the F seats from EZE to FCO were taken for that weekend.



MGGS
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1105 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
The funny thing is, the Pope requested austerity to all, and the answer of Mss. K to that request was.... renting a private jet for the final leg to Rome...  

As we've seen, she'll do anything do distract from domestic issues.
(Yes, I know the first Pope from S.America is a big thing for Catholics, for Argentina an even bigger thing, still she did not exactly get on with him before. Not that having her an enemy should reflect badly on the new Pope).

A British based company provided the private jet?
We are just too nice sometimes.
Missed a chance there to give her a taste of her own medicine what with her embargoing of sea trade.

Still, this whole Tango-01 issue puts all of her play acting on the world stage into context, cannot even use her own aircraft.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6148 posts, RR: 31
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1100 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
(Yes, I know the first Pope from S.America is a big thing for Catholics, for Argentina an even bigger thing, still she did not exactly get on with him before. Not that having her an enemy should reflect badly on the new Pope).

Interesting that Argentina, being one of the more liberal nations on Earth, does not recognize the separation of church and state. Catholicism is their official religion and whomever wants to run for President HAS to be Catholic.

Still, the real guy who was a sworn enemy of Francisco was Néstor, not really Cristina.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
A British based company provided the private jet?
We are just too nice sometimes.

Not really. More likely, a business is business approach. Nothing to do with being nice. For the life of me I don´t get why they would charter a jet from a British company, if indeed tis is true.



MGGS
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1091 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
Interesting that Argentina, being one of the more liberal nations on Earth, does not recognize the separation of church and state. Catholicism is their official religion and whomever wants to run for President HAS to be Catholic.

It's a funny thing, the UK of course does not separate church from state yet is considerably more liberal (and secular) than many who do, including the USA.
Here, a Conservative led government has endorsed gay marriage for example, issues like abortion are not anywhere near as politically sensitive as elsewhere.

A historical hangover - from long periods of intra Christian wars - has excluded Catholics from the Royal Family. Not that anything would actually happen now if one did marry into it. That's true about a lot of things really.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1985 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1073 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
Come on Gonzalo, even for you, that is a lame argument. She is the head of state. She has a big entourage. Most heads of state travel on a VIP plane owned by the state. What did Piñeiro travel on? Or whatever delegation he sent if he himself did not go? Did they fly LA and connect at MAD? What did Dilma take? And furthermore, yes, all the F seats from EZE to FCO were taken for that weekend.

OK, point taken. But still there is a enormous amount of hypocrisy in her trip to Rome. From 2003 to the past week, her husband and CFK avoided Bergoglio like if he was the pest, going to attend the religious ceremonies to every place but Buenos Aires, precisely to avoid not the ceremony, but the person, Jorge Bergolgio. Now, after he becomes the new Pope, she runs like a 15 y.o. to his arms ? Come on... really pathetic.



Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
Still, the real guy who was a sworn enemy of Francisco was Néstor, not really Cristina.

Not buying it. Jorge Bergoglio, before the Conclave, made 14 formal requests to meet her. Not three, not five. Fourteen. Every single one was dismissed.
And there are very recent disrespects from her government to Begoglio, like the Vice President Boudou saying about a declaration signed for Bergoglio, just at the end of 2012 " That document from the Bishops is completely irrelevant for us and for everyone"...
She never was available for "this guy".... Talk about mistreating a cousin all his life, and then he wins the lottery jackpot    

All in all, she had the opportunity to wear the life-jacket that the Pope throw to her when he said "Don't came to the Vatican, just give that money for travel to the poor". That would be more honest from her part. And it would save some millions to the Argentines too.



Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6148 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1012 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 14):
Now, after he becomes the new Pope, she runs like a 15 y.o. to his arms ? Come on... really pathetic.

Its´called "Politics". As a Cardinal, she did not have any obligation to meet him. Nor does she as a Pope, really. But, a Pope, is a head of state, and the representative of the religion of most Argentines, aside from being the head of the official reilgion of Argentina. It would have simply been impossible for her not to go. Mujica did not go. See the comments in Uruguayan papers to see how he´s faring with that decision.

http://www.clarin.com/europa/razones-ausencia-Mujica_0_885511616.html

The above is not an Uruguayan newspaper, but read the comments from the Uruguayans and you´ll see what I mean.

It´s a case of damn if you do, damn if you don´t. Mexico´s president went. I for one do not appreciate it. Mexico has no official religion, but I understand that it would have been pretty stupid if he had chosen not to attend.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 14):
And there are very recent disrespects from her government to Begoglio

And do tell, why is it disrespectful not to receive him? And frankly, Boudou (whom I personally think is a joke) probably said what many have not dared to say.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 14):
All in all, she had the opportunity to wear the life-jacket that the Pope throw to her when he said "Don't came to the Vatican, just give that money for travel to the poor"

It was impossible for her not to go. She would have never heard the end of it.

[Edited 2013-03-20 17:46:29]


MGGS
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 969 times:

She went to vietnam a couple of months ago on are private chartered jet for the same reason, fears that it might be seized.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
FYI: Plural Of "Aircraft" Is "Aircraft." posted Sat Jun 8 2002 20:57:33 by ExitRow
Pres. Obama Hands Out First Medal Of Honor posted Fri Sep 18 2009 07:06:17 by Aaron747
Website Of Aircraft Mx Related Pics. posted Tue Feb 3 2009 20:35:44 by HAWK21M
Jett Travolta Dies Of Seizure At Age of 16 posted Fri Jan 2 2009 13:35:52 by NIKV69
Fastest Manned Aircraft Crossing Of US Continent posted Fri Oct 3 2008 09:29:33 by Pe@rson
John Hoffmeister Ex Pres. Of Shell On Glenn Beck.. posted Sat Aug 9 2008 16:10:53 by MIAMIx707
New Type Of Aircraft Tug (video) posted Mon Apr 30 2007 14:58:07 by EK20
Muslim Kicked Of Aircraft Due To Toilet Trip posted Sat Dec 9 2006 06:14:46 by 777ER
Video Of Heckler At Bush/Chinese Pres. Hu Summit posted Thu Apr 20 2006 18:23:27 by Max999
What Type Of Aircraft Are You? posted Fri Jan 27 2006 04:09:14 by CurtisMan