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Barack Obama's Speech Today In Jerusalem  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Barack Obama is still talking as I write this, but I think, so far, his speech of today in Jerusalem is definitely something different. The usual rhetoric is absolutely absent, and there are some phrases and sentences that should have a real impact in the common people of Israel and Palestine, and probably in their authorities too.... I'm not saying this will cause any immediate change, or any sort of miraculous hug between Israelis and Palestinians.
But it seems very different compared with all the previous U.S.Presidents.



Your thoughts ?


Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2411 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2760 times:

Yes, the rhetoric is really different, and it raises the expectations. I really, really hope deeds will follow these words.

"Put yourself in their shoes -- look at the world through their eyes," he said. "It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of her own, and lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements of her parents every single day. It is not just when settler violence against Palestinians goes unpunished. It is not right to prevent Palestinians from farming their lands; to restrict a student's ability to move around the West Bank; or to displace Palestinian families from their home."

Sounds like the Sermon on the Mount.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

I would have liked to hear more about how it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNZniRFSeug

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
Sounds like the Sermon on the Mount.

Oh... My... God...



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2711 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I would have liked to hear more about how it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

That's direct result from all the actions of Israel against Palestinians. When negotiations to stop building of these illegal settlements and stop violating basic human rights of Palestinian people failed it's just natural that people resort to radicalism and violence.

That's what has always happened, when you take democratic means of changing things away from people radicalism will start to grow. Maybe this is what Israelis wanted, discriminating Palestinians until they lose their faith in solving the conflict peaceful way and start fighting back, and after that Israel starts to play the role of a victim.

This is so typical from Israeli supporters and many Americans in general, blaming people Palestinians & other people for radicalism completely forgetting what has driven these people to the point where they see no other way of solving anything than violence.

The ultimate truth is that Israel & United States are largely responsible from all the events that have driven groups of people to the point where they see no other way than terrorism to have any effect on anything.


Great to see Obama finally doing the right thing and trying to solve problems instead of making them worse like George W Bush and other short sighted Republicans have done.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 3):
That's direct result from all the actions of Israel against Palestinians. When negotiations to stop building of these illegal settlements and stop violating basic human rights of Palestinian people failed it's just natural that people resort to radicalism and violence.

Horsecrap. Such propaganda is geared towards raising children to believe in Genocide and glorious martyrdom in its execution. It goes far beyond the desire for land, self-determination and self-government. You don't see the same sort of thing from the Basques or the Irish, do you?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2661 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Horsecrap. Such propaganda is geared towards raising children to believe in Genocide and glorious martyrdom in its execution. It goes far beyond the desire for land, self-determination and self-government. You don't see the same sort of thing from the Basques or the Irish, do you?

Both Basques and Irish people in Northern Ireland live in democratic countries where they can promote their ideas peaceful way, Palestinians can't as Israel isn't interested in real negotiations and peace.

Also if you didn't notice over its history ETA has killed hundreds of people in Spain, I believe way more than Palestinians have killed Israelis during last 10 years combined. But maybe you were too busy thinking about 9/11 and poor people living in Rogue State of Israel to notice this, it's sad how people keep thinking about how horrible 9/11 was each year when 11th of September completely ignoring all the other just as huge crimes against humanity committed by US and Israeli military.


Also as far as I know both Spain and the UK have pretty good education systems, I doubt Gaza has thanks to Israel making Gaza one huge prison camp. In general less educated people are more likely they are going to fall for pure propaganda and radicalism. Proper and objective education could help these people better understand the other side of this conflict and thus maybe help with the negotiations, however I can't see that happening as long as Israelis keep messing around in Palestinian area.

[Edited 2013-03-21 12:52:54]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Both Basques and Irish people in Northern Ireland live in democratic countries where they can promote their ideas peaceful way,

Yet until very recently (ie the 1990's) they chose NOT to do so, and continued acting as urban guerrillas. Specifically with respect to Ireland, the geopolitical landscape hasn't changed one iota since before the violence in Ireland began. You really should do some homework and fact checking before making statements. Rhetoric and idealism are only worth so much.

I for one am perfectly fine with a two-state solution, as per the original mandate. Two states or not, the United States government will not withdraw support from Israel as long as oil plays a roll in the region. Supporting Israel ensured the US government has a place at the table. Relations with a future Palestinian state (IMHO inevitable at this point) may be helped by the Obama administration's initial stance, though they will likely still be frosty at best given the political history of the region. I should like to point out, that the two-state option was rejected by the Palestinians themselves more than once. I can't say that I particularly blame the Palestinians for not being thrilled about Israel. We're talking about creating a nation that (in name) hadn't existed for almost two thousand years, comprising a group of people largely implanted from several parts of the globe in the name of a homeland. On the flipside, Palestine wasn't a country either, but rather just a region and its people continually being rolled over by the various empires du jour that have been drawing and redrawing the lines in what we call the Middle East for thousands of years. This is really just another chapter.

[Edited 2013-03-21 13:30:04]

User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 6 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2625 times:

Yeah well sure I'm not saying that Palestinians are blameless, both Israelis and Palestinians are at fault. I can understand both sides here, Palestinians and their ancestors have lived there for a long time and I can very well understand why Israeli Jews want to have their own state at any cost after all the horrible events of WW2.

Indeed two state solution is the only real option, I hope some day there will be peace between independent states of Israel and Palestine... If nothing else seems to work then I think some third party should force both sides to peace through military intervention if nothing else has an effect.

I hope both Israelis and Palestinians would stop listening extremists and start seriously working towards two state solution.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2546 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I would have liked to hear more about how it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

Why? Because you only see one side? Then you're part of the problem.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2527 times:

Until 1967, the Palestinians were citizens of Jordan and Egypt, respectively. Israel captures the land in the war, and annexes it. That's the way wars have been fought since the beginning of time. Israel tried to return these lands (with the exception of East Jerusalem) to Jordan and Egypt, and both refused.

As they say, to the victor go the spoils.

Past posts aside...after my up close and personal experience with Palestinians on my latest trip to Israel, they will NEVER get support of any kind from me.

Marc


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2608 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2512 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Horsecrap. Such propaganda is geared towards raising children to believe in Genocide and glorious martyrdom in its execution. It goes far beyond the desire for land, self-determination and self-government.

        

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
Until 1967, the Palestinians were citizens of Jordan and Egypt, respectively

Well, the King of Jordan got tired of their rabblerousing and threw them out, massacring them by the thousands in the Black September of 1970.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
Israel captures the land in the war, and annexes it. That's the way wars have been fought since the beginning of time. Israel tried to return these lands (with the exception of East Jerusalem) to Jordan and Egypt, and both refused.

As they say, to the victor go the spoils.

        

Too bad "We the People" will likely never be privy to what is being said behind closed doors. I would love to be a fly on the wall.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2504 times:


This is all I have to say. I think it is time for a different approach though but both sides need to figure things out its not a one sided thing. CNN quickly pulled the Gaza Article from their front page mobile website btw.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

A bunch of the press coverage here in the US of this current trip has labelled Israel as "The US's Best Ally". I'm not at all sure why Israel is given that label. The fact is that they receive large sums of money from the US Treasury over decades of time and don't deliver it back, and have drawn us into many political tensions that we'd otherwise not be concerned with. Why is this?

Bennie was pretty much ready to draw us into a war with Iran last fall till Obama told him to go blank himself. I for one am glad for it. The result for all of this was our 'best ally' interfering with US elections by hosting Mitt Romney campaign fund raising appearances . Why is this?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):

A bunch of the press coverage here in the US of this current trip has labelled Israel as "The US's Best Ally". I'm not at all sure why Israel is given that label. The fact is that they receive large sums of money from the US Treasury over decades of time and don't deliver it back, and have drawn us into many political tensions that we'd otherwise not be concerned with. Why is this?

Israel might not pay back all of their debt in terms of money, but a lot of US hi-tech companies are over there with major research and development facilities, and they pay little to no taxes, which are a major expense in Israel.

As pro-Zionist as I am, I'm not sure where the label "The US's Best Ally" came from. Culturally and strategically, they are an important ally, but so are other countries that we are allies with.

Marc


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
they will NEVER get support of any kind from me.

Well, they say.... a leopard never changes its spots !

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Why is this?

1) Because of AIPAC (American Israel Public affairs Committee) A VERY influential and powerful lobby group, with contacts all over Capitol Hill.
Most US politicians want to retain their elected position in the US administration, however, one way to get your marching orders is to call AIPAC into question.

2) Israel has a vast and ever present propaganda machine.. it never sleeps !

3) Most Americans are ignorant of external affairs, especially ME politics !

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 13):
but so are other countries that we are allies with.

Pity then that they don't receive the same unquestioning support as Israel seems to enjoy

[Edited 2013-03-21 20:00:48]

[Edited 2013-03-21 20:14:14]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 13):
As pro-Zionist as I am, I'm not sure where the label "The US's Best Ally" came from. Culturally and strategically, they are an important ally, but so are other countries that we are allies with.

My $0.02: The UK is the US's best ally. Despite that unfortunate colonial era, and even discounting the WWII era, they've given us access to their military facilities without question and have partnered in countless military systems that both depend on and have joined along on various military endeavors both valid and invalid and have shared a 'special' relationship with regard to intelligence sharing that no other nation shares. They are a very important trading partner and IMO deliver more than they ask for in return.

I'd say Israel is an important ally, but the current PM is putting a lot of that at risk.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Pity then that they don't receive the same unquestioning support as Israel seems to enjoy

Really? Because I've never seen our support of most of Europe, South Korea, Australia, etc. questioned I could name tons of other countries, but I don't really need to list just about every country on the planet - do I?.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
they will NEVER get support of any kind from me.

Well, they say.... a leopard never changes its spots !

Let's see how you'd feel if you PERSONALLY were targeted in an attack. I was. Another second or two, and my friend and I would have been a couple of burned out corpses. This is no dramatization or exaggeration. This is fact.

Marc


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7914 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
As they say, to the victor go the spoils.

Very well, then don't complain about the present situation...

I don't get the huge outrage when someone criticizes Israel. I haven't seen anyone here being anti-Jewish/Israel, even our resident poster who heavily criticizes Israel/the US (not trying to call you out, pvjin, giving you props) posted:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Yeah well sure I'm not saying that Palestinians are blameless, both Israelis and Palestinians are at fault

The only one sided garbage I'm seeing is Israel can do no wrong. There are the extremes on the other side out there, don't get me wrong, but to say one side is only to blame is pretty ignorant


At least be honest, the only way Israel is going to get everything they want is if they kill all the Palestinians. I don't think any of our posters want that, so stop with the unrealistic expectations. Israel is not perfect, they make mistakes, they have a right to exist IMO, and I think they can do a lot better in dealing with this situation. The attitudes like this--

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):
Past posts aside...after my up close and personal experience with Palestinians on my latest trip to Israel, they will NEVER get support of any kind from me.

completely don't help, and then you're aghast when you don't see the Palestinians budging?

Thanks to those here keeping it civil and looking for a real way out of this hole. I'm so tired of being criticized for not giving Israel 100% support



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2608 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2428 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Israel has a vast and ever present propaganda machine.. it never sleeps !

and it is because-----------

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

And the Palestinian Arab Propaganda Machine is limitless with it's Petro-Dollar funding from the oil rich Arab nations. They all teach horrible lies about Jewish people to their children to be sure and instill plenty of hatred for the next generation.
While Israel is told to "turn the other cheek" and take "the upper-hand". A nasty set of double-standards from a vile collection of anti-semities continues to grow and spread like a cancer in the region. Hatred is the fuel that drives them.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Most Americans are ignorant of external affairs, especially ME politics !

What do you know of "most Americans"? Just what makes you an expert on who and what "most Americans" are?
You should be reminded we are all entitled to our opinions and arguments on this blog. We pay for the equal right to our opinion. Democracy is the right to have a different opinion than yours.

Speaking of blogs, if anyone would like to read about the atrocities the world press keeps under-wraps because of the power of the Petro-Dollar funded Arab propaganda machine then read you some AtlasShrugs! I'll bet you never hear of any of this stuff going on in the mainstream media! Wonder why? Makes me want to go hmmmmmmmm.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1988 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 13):
Culturally and strategically, they are an important ally, but so are other countries that we are allies with.

No doubt, U.K. is IMO the most notorious case, but probably this is just diplomacy. If they are asked in two weeks in London, the "most important and close ally of US" will be U. K .

Can some of the U.S. based A.net members give us an update about how is this speech being commented or analyzed by the media and international experts in the U.S. ?? Were there any reactions from the Republicans ?

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
While Israel is told to "turn the other cheek" and take "the upper-hand".

I'm not sure how being told to stop building settlements in the West Bank equates to "turning the other cheek".

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 16):
This is no dramatization or exaggeration. This is fact.

It may well be, I don't doubt you for a miniute.

But what I do think though, is why ?

Why did this happen. What were the reasons for this attack. It generally takes two to tango, dose it not ?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
What do you know of "most Americans"? Just what makes you an expert on who and what "most Americans" are?
You should be reminded we are all entitled to our opinions and arguments on this blog. We pay for the equal right to our opinion. Democracy is the right to have a different opinion than yours.

Its a very well known fact, that many Americans are extremely insular in there international political views, that is if they have a view at all.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
A nasty set of double-standards from a vile collection of anti-semities continues to grow and spread like a cancer in the region. Hatred is the fuel that drives them

Oh well......
Perhaps Israel should take head of what BO and many countless of other world leaders have said. Israel needs to embrace peace with the Palestinians stop building on land that is not theirs, and agree to a 2 state solution. NOW !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I would have liked to hear more about how it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNZni...FSeug

I wonder what propaganda these guys have been eating.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-2...epare-to-join-israeli-army/4397478


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

And the Palestinian Arab Propaganda Machine is limitless with it's Petro-Dollar funding from the oil rich Arab nations.

What does either position matter to the bulk of US citizens in the current times?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2368 times:
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Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 16):
Let's see how you'd feel if you PERSONALLY were targeted in an attack.

But why were you "personally targeted"?

I've walked the streets of Ramallah and Gaza City and never felt threatened in any way, quite the reverse.

Were you just unlucky, wrong place, wrong time, in which case it wasn't personal, or were you doing something that caused them (whoever they are) to attack you - personally?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1555 posts, RR: 4
Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
It may well be, I don't doubt you for a miniute.

But what I do think though, is why ?

Why did this happen. What were the reasons for this attack. It generally takes two to tango, dose it not ?

The night before we went to this site, a couple Israeli soldiers got bored and decided to harass Palestinians. As far as I know, there were no injuries or fatalities...mainly they were acting like punks. As soon as this came to light, the government issued a formal apology, and I believe the soldiers were given some sort of penalty. Still, this raises the question of why they would choose to retaliate at a site that is holy to the 3 religions of Israel.

I'll also add that although the incident lasted about a half hour, I do have flashbacks. My psychologist says that what I went through is definitely enough to cause some PTSD. If we had gotten to his car a few seconds earlier, we'd be dead.

I'll reiterate in this post for those who did not see my post in January: The IDF immediately got visitors to the site behind a long and very tall concrete wall for protection. I asked one of the soldiers what was going on, and he told me the situation and that they were waiting for back up to neutralize the situation. I asked if that meant killing those who were attacking us. His response was pretty much (translated by my Israeli friend), "We won't use deadly force unless we need to. Rubber bullets, stun grenades, stuff like that. But we are under orders never to use live ammunition unless our lives or those of civilians such as yourself are at risk."

Marc


User currently offlineCaryjack From United States of America, joined May 2007, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2434 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 19):
Can some of the U.S. based A.net members give us an update about how is this speech being commented or analyzed by the media and international experts in the U.S. ?? Were there any reactions from the Republicans ?


I'm a conservative US citizen and listen to a few talk radio stations. This afternoon I was listening to Michael Medved's show on KTTH near Seattle. Michael has a very large national audience and is a conservative Jew who generally supports Republican political candidates. He characterized Obama's speech as the best speech of Obamma's presidency and the most important speech of Israel's history.
Thanks,  
Cary


User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 27, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

I love all these conservative Americans talking about Israel. They have never even studied the situation or the politics there. It is really ironic; they would rather oppose President Obama than find peace.

Peace with regards to Israel/Palestine will never be. Never.

I wonder why...people would rather be nasty and bitter than allow peace, rightful ownership of land, decency, and human rights.

Let the Palestinians have their state; let them have peace.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Obama is right. Hard to swallow for all the safe-right majorities in both populations, but nevertheless finally a clear word.

The Israelis and Palestinians must end to act after the biblical rule "an eye for an eye...". Thousands of years of history have only shown its a stupid concept.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2411 posts, RR: 13
Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2386 times:

The U.S., as the celebrated world "leader" in democracy and other stuff like that should force Israel to make one law. One law, with one article. And enforce it. Else they won't get any $$$ anymore.

The law should read like this: "Every person in Israel and its occupied territories has the same rights and the same duties. No person shall be treated differently because of his or her religion, origin, race, place of living, sexual orientation and other factors."

Palestinians shall be drafted into the common army, Palestinian children be taught with the same quality of education, Palestinian hospitals be enabled the same level of care, or else they should just leave Palestine to be a viable and sovereign state.

Would solve many a problem there IMHO. And I know that I'm dreaming. Because the day such a law is enacted Israel will erupt into a civil war, with the orthodox Jews murdering the liberal ones, with right-wing fanatics driving leftists out of the country, making the reverse aliyah to the U.S. or Europe.



David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2608 posts, RR: 22
Reply 30, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Its a very well known fact

No, that is a very condescending generalization.
Like saying all gays are feminine, or all people of Scotch or Dutch decent are cheap.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7410 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 13):
but a lot of US hi-tech companies are over there with major research and development facilities, and they pay little to no taxes

So apart from taking money from the US taxpayer and giving nothing in return they are also taking jobs from the US economy, so what exactly is the benefit in this deal for the people of the US?


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2721 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 30):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Its a very well known fact

No, that is a very condescending generalization.

It is a generalisation, but it can also be a measurable phenomenon. A number of Pew global attitudes surveys show that Americans are less interested in international affairs than their counterparts in developed nations. Being less interested, they are generally less informed.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 46
Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2356 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 28):
"an eye for an eye..."

... makes the World blind.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2342 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
The law should read like this:

This sounds rather like a statement proclaiming the annexation of the West Bank and Gaza - i.e. the creation of a single State and the abandonment of the Two State approach. There are a couple of obstacles to that approach. Firstly it would effectively negate the recognition of Palestine as a non-member State by the UN and continue to be opposed by both the Palestinians and their supporters. In the absence of formal annexation, drafting Palestinians into the IDF would be in breach of international law. Under article 51 of the Fourth Convention, the population in an occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier's armed forces, nor may propaganda be issued encouraging them to enlist.

Secondly, while some major voice within Israel have specifically called for formally annexing those territories, there is considerable caution in doing so. There is a concern that formal annexation would threaten the future viability of Israel as a Jewish State. For this reason, those within Israel who do advocate a single Jewish State - and it is they who emphasize its essential Jewish character - have suggested that Palestinians be given a choice: sign an oath of loyalty to a Jewish State, accept a secondary status as a non-citizen or emigrate.

While there are some Arab Israelis and Bedouin in the IDF, I could imagine there would reluctance to drafting large numbers of Palestinians from outside the current officially recognised borders, both from within the defence establishment and among the people currently living under occupation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2339 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 27):

I love all these conservative Americans talking about Israel. They have never even studied the situation or the politics there. It is really ironic; they would rather oppose President Obama than find peace.

Peace with regards to Israel/Palestine will never be. Never.

I wonder why...people would rather be nasty and bitter than allow peace, rightful ownership of land, decency, and human rights.

Let the Palestinians have their state; let them have peace.

I'm just curious - are you saying that if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, and Palestine becomes an independent nation free to do what they want, there will be peace?

Sorry, I just don't believe it. Palestinians will celebrate, saying "Thanks for Gaza and West Bank", quickly followed by, "Now hand over the rest of Palestine/Israel". Live and let live is not a concept present in their culture.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1224 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Don't worry, we can be assured that within an hour of giving a mildly empathetic speech for the Palestinians, Mr Obama will have gotten back to the task at hand of Israel-pandering. He didn't even have the balls to request a halt to the strategic building of settlements.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
I'm not saying that Palestinians are blameless

The Palestinian children are. Israeli kids too. Sadly the children on both sides will be brought up to hate each other.  
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 9):

Until 1967, the Palestinians were citizens of Jordan and Egypt, respectively. Israel captures the land in the war, and annexes it. That's the way wars have been fought since the beginning of time. Israel tried to return these lands (with the exception of East Jerusalem) to Jordan and Egypt, and both refused.

As they say, to the victor go the spoils.

Which is why Afghanistan is the 51st state of the US and Iraq the 52nd, right? And how France, Italy, UK, Qatar and the US have divided up Libya and taken it for themselves?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
1) Because of AIPAC (American Israel Public affairs Committee) A VERY influential and powerful lobby group, with contacts all over Capitol Hill.

   For those interested, this is a fantastic book on the matter: http://amzn.to/11oIlS2

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
2) Israel has a vast and ever present propaganda machine.. it never sleeps !

   Meanwhile the Palestinians can't afford one. And even if they had the money, it is probably better spent on humanitarian purposes.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
3) Most Americans are ignorant of external affairs, especially ME politics !
Quoting flymia (Reply 11):
but both sides need to figure things out its not a one sided thing.

  

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
The UK is the US's best ally.

That sounds about right. I would even suggest that Israel isn't the US's best ally in the middle east. From the top of my head; Bahrain hosts the US Navy's Fifth Fleet at a very large facility near Manama, Qatar hosts the US Air Force at Al Udeid Air Base and also jointly assists the US's goals in recent conflicts such as Libya and Syria, Kuwait apparently hosts a few US Military bases which were rather handy during the invasion of Iraq. Iraq itself, now with Saddam removed, is also a reasonably close ally, no?

Israel on the other hand sucks up billions of US taxpayer dollars in support money, costs the US friendship among many middle easterners and (through the Israel Lobby) pretty much gets to decide the US's vote on the UN Security Council. Just my 2c.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
No person shall be treated differently because of his or her religion, origin, race,

An interesting article related to that:
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/shared-announces-segregated.html

[Edited 2013-03-22 06:24:41]


Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2316 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Quoting na (Reply 28):
"an eye for an eye..."

... makes the World blind.

well said.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
Sounds like the Sermon on the Mount.

Wow...He really is the Messiah..

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I would have liked to hear more about how it is wrong for Palestinians to propagandize their children on the desirability of martyrdom and killing Jews.

Same here..

Quoting pvjin (Reply 3):
That's direct result from all the actions of Israel against Palestinians. When negotiations to stop building of these illegal settlements and stop violating basic human rights of Palestinian people failed it's just natural that people resort to radicalism and violence.

Blah, blah, blah...This same old rhetoric is getting old.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Why? Because you only see one side? Then you're part of the problem.

Which is why the Arab's are the problem.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I'd say Israel is an important ally, but the current PM is putting a lot of that at risk.

Or I would say our current leader occupying the White House would be putting it at risk.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):Most Americans are ignorant of external affairs, especially ME politics !
What do you know of "most Americans"? Just what makes you an expert on who and what "most Americans" are?

Why do you continue to make statement's like this?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Its a very well known fact, that many Americans are extremely insular in there international political views, that is if they have a view at all.

This fact must be written down somewhere. Can you please show it to us?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
on land that is not theirs,

Your opinion

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
and agree to a 2 state solution

Which had been offered and turned down by the Arab's before. Snooze you loose...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 27):
Let the Palestinians have their state; let them have peace

They have one. It is called Jordan...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
One law, with one article. And enforce it. Else they won't get any $$$ anymore.

What about the even larger amount that we give to the Muslim Brother hood in Egypt? Are you okay with that one? Should we break up the peace agreement that was made and stop giving money to all of the countries in hte area?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
Palestinians shall be drafted into the common army, Palestinian children be taught with the same quality of education, Palestinian hospitals be enabled the same level of care, or else they should just leave Palestine to be a viable and sovereign state.

This will never rhappen as long as the terrorist organizations that are running them stay in power. They have already been handed enough money to do these things. But thugs like Arafat became millionaires instead.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Meanwhile the Palestinians can't afford one. And even if they had the money, it is probably better spent on humanitarian purposes.

They have been given plenty of money. their plight is of their own making.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
Israel on the other hand sucks up billions of US taxpayer dollars in support money, costs the US friendship among many middle easterners and (through the Israel Lobby) pretty much gets to decide the US's vote on the UN Security Council. Just my 2c.

Israel, Egypt and Jordan suck up how much US money in order to keep peace? Why do you continue with a one sided story? And the bigger question is why do we continue to borrow money from Japan and China and give it away to any country at all? We need to end all support including the UN.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1263 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2307 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Blah, blah, blah...This same old rhetoric is getting old.

Nah, it's the truth. As long as any Palestinian can't pick up a random part of land from area of Israel and start building a settlement there without any permission from the actual owners of that area you have no right to do that either.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 36):
The Palestinian children are. Israeli kids too. Sadly the children on both sides will be brought up to hate each other.  

True, the continuing hate and extreme views are what fuels this conflict on both Israeli and Palestinian sides. I doubt there will be peace as long as big masses of people keep hating each other like this...

I can't stop being amazed by how full of stupidity big masses of people seem to be everywhere in the world, fighting for whatever stupid nationalistic/religious ideas those in power teach them instead of questioning all this madness and starting to work for peace. I guess getting proper education can help with this, but seems like in case of so many conflicts even the well educated supposedly rational people become blood thirsty animals.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 27):
Peace with regards to Israel/Palestine will never be. Never.

Never is a long time. Personally, I 'never' thought I'd see the fall of the Soviet Union, but fall it has. In time the Arabs will gain control through sheer weight of numbers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
So apart from taking money from the US taxpayer and giving nothing in return they are also taking jobs from the US economy, so what exactly is the benefit in this deal for the people of the US?

A lot of intellectual property in the high tech space comes from US companies located in Israel. Chances are quite good the CPU in your laptop or server came from designs that came from Intel employees working in Israel, and a lot of the ideas behind a lot of the high tech startups from the last two decades or so came from Israelis. The famous/infamous Predator drone is the brain child of a former colonel from the Israeli Air Force who developed the first few iterations with his own money and that of his family.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I'd say Israel is an important ally, but the current PM is putting a lot of that at risk.

Or I would say our current leader occupying the White House would be putting it at risk.

One of these two is building settlements in places his country committed to not building settlements...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 46
Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 37):
well said.

Unfortunately, I can't claim it as my own. Widely attributed to Mahatma Gandhi.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
The law should read like this: "Every person in Israel and its occupied territories has the same rights and the same duties. No person shall be treated differently because of his or her religion, origin, race, place of living, sexual orientation and other factors."

Must admit that that's largely the way I see it. I'm old enough to have heard some of the radio news, and even seen some newspaper headlines, way back in 1948 when this business started. The whole idea of 'Israel' appears to been based on 'holocaust guilt' - the Allies were ready to allow the Jews to set up a 'Jewish State' to compensate them for the (admittedly dreadful) things the German Nazis had done to the European Jews. I can only assume that the popular conception of 'Arabs' at that time was of nomadic tribes riding round deserts on camels - not people who, like everyone else, had been been living in cities for thousands of years. As it happens, I had older uncles and cousins who were still in the British Army, and served in Palestine in the aftermath of WW2 - they told me how sickened they were by the things that the Jewish 'militias' did to the Arabs......

So the Jewish people were kind of 'granted a licence' to occupy and 'colonise' Palestine. Without much, if any, regard to the rights of the inhabitants. And there's no doubt that the Jewish migrants used military force, from 1947 on, to drive large numbers of Palestinians off their ancestral land, and take it for themselves. And, to this day, people of the Jewish faith are allowed special privileges in terms of rights to emigrate to Israel etc. - and ALSO take land for themselves, with no pretence of compensating the Arabs who had been living on it for centuries.

In my view, the only available solution to the problem is to abandon any idea of a "Jewish State' and instead set up a single state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan - and grant genuine 'equal rights,' including freedom of religion, to everyone living there.

I still find it deeply ironic that the Jewish people - who undoubtedly suffered terribly from the 'religious intolerance' meted out by Hitler and his gang - now appear to be determined to maintain the 'State of Israel,' which is now itself based on religious discrimination. The only difference being that the discrimination these days is Jews oppressing Muslims, whereas in the 1940s it was largely Christians oppressing Jews.......?

[Edited 2013-03-23 05:53:12]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2067 times:

I wouldn't say that its Jews vs Muslims. I'd say that its zionism vs everyone else. And don't forget that, although Muslims make up the majority of Palestinians, not all Palestinians are Muslims. But yea, I agree with pretty much what you said.

[Edited 2013-03-23 08:29:54]

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
The whole idea of 'Israel' appears to been based on 'holocaust guilt' - the Allies were ready to allow the Jews to set up a 'Jewish State' to compensate them for the (admittedly dreadful) things the German Nazis had done to the European Jews.

The idea of zionism, and in particular the support given it by the Balfour declaration of 1917, predates the Holocaust by quite a bit.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
I can only assume that the popular conception of 'Arabs' at that time was of nomadic tribes riding round deserts on camels - not people who, like everyone else, had been been living in cities for thousands of years.

Possibly true, even though accounts of the Crusaders would have given the lie to it. Perhaps such thinking was adopted as a lie of convenience.

On the other hand, it was all too common for the power elite of Europe to be making decisions about the fate of non-Europeans in that time frame with not much more than their own prejudices to guide them.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
As it happens, I had older uncles and cousins who were still in the British Army, and served in Palestine in the aftermath of WW2 - they told me how sickened they were by the things that the Jewish 'militias' did to the Arabs......

Human life was treated quite cheaply in that era.

It kind of amazes me how these things swing back and forth. During the Clinton era when US forces bombed ex-Yugoslavia the mandate was not to lose a single US life, and the nation held its breath for five days when ONE pilot ejected from his aircraft and eluded capture. Fast forward less than a decade and thousands of US servicemen/women are killed in Iraq and no one bats an eye.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
The only difference being that the discrimination these days is Jews oppressing Muslims, whereas in the 1940s it was largely Christians oppressing Jews.......?

I don't think there's much linkage between Nazism and Christianity. I'm sure most of the Nazis were funneled through Christian training as a part of their upbringing, but clearly didn't take much away from it. They were far more influenced by the teachings of Adolf Hitler than Jesus Christ.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2020 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
. I can only assume that the popular conception of 'Arabs' at that time was of nomadic tribes riding round deserts on camels - not people who, like everyone else, had been been living in cities for thousands of years.

I don't think that's the case. From the First World War on, it had been the British/French intention that "Palestine" become a Jewish state, as defined on the map by Sykes-Picot and which included the West Bank.

British interests were centred on "Iraq" - a created country - Jordan and the Canal Zone. French interests were all in Syria and the Levant.

Even before the First World War this was accepted by various British/French Orientalists, as a division of the post Ottoman spoils. T E Lawrence wrote approvingly of it in his diary of tours in the area in 1911/12, and wrote of the industry of the people there.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 put this on paper, but with one important proviso:

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

The intention was to give "independence" to the people already there, the native Jews and Arabs, and that the rights of both be protected.

But then Hitler and the Shoah happened, and what was to have been a Jewish national home became as well a sanctuary for the remaining Jews of Europe, which had never been part of the original plan.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-23 12:23:15]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 46, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1926 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):

I'm just curious - are you saying that if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, and Palestine becomes an independent nation free to do what they want, there will be peace?

How does treating a population humanely equate to peace between two populations?

No. You must treat the populations humanely first. And then find peace later. You are on no moral high ground when you treat one subversively for decades, and then demand peace.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):

They have one. It is called Jordan...

Wow. That is akin to telling a million + Israelis to go back to Europe and Russia/CIS countries.

[Edited 2013-03-24 03:34:07]


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 47, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1922 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
The intention was to give "independence" to the people already there, the native Jews and Arabs, and that the rights of both be protected.

But then Hitler and the Shoah happened, and what was to have been a Jewish national home became as well a sanctuary for the remaining Jews of Europe, which had never been part of the original plan.

I think you've got it exactly right. mariner. But, in the event, after the holocaust, the Jewish refugees gained priority and there was never any prospect of the rights of the Palestinians being 'protected.' Even though they'd taken no part in WW2. Except, I suppose, helping the Allies by serving as a base/rest area for British and Commonwealth forces fighting the Nazis in North Africa.

[Edited 2013-03-24 04:38:49]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 47):

Much of the discussion surrounding the Balfour Declaration and the attitude towards Palestine of the British post 1945 has been covered in many previous threads. One thing that stands out was the irreconcilability of that declaration and Woodrow Wilson's encouraging the adoption of the idea of the right of nations to self-determination adopted by the League of Nations. The mandate was impossible to carry out from the start. How can you promise a "homeland for Jews" and at the same time assert

Quoting mariner (Reply 45):
that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,
?


Already in the framing of that statement, we see a difference. While the "civil and religious rights" of people already in Palestine were to be protected, the "political status enjoyed by Jews" was guaranteed. One group has only civil and religious rights while the other has political rights. While the League of Nations was prepared to recognise the Jewish Agency, no International recognition was ever accorded to representatives of Palestinians. From the very onset, the plan was flawed and discriminatory.

In contemporary attitudes to Balfour in the West and Israel, he is described as something of a hero. Long forgotten is his sponsoring the Bill that introduced the first restrictions on immigration to the UK, the Aliens Act of 1905. The aim of that Act was to specifically reduce the number of Jewish refugees from Galicia and the Pale. Reading his comments in Hansard is illustrative and they seem to have formed the basis of many comments made by those who opposed later waves of immigration by people from the West Indies, Pakistan or those who fear immigration from Bulgaria and Romania to Britain today. Western support for a Jewish Homeland has been, from day one, based on anti-Semitism. That remained true at the end of the Second World War.

My mother, who worked with displaced persons following the defeat of Germany in 1945, recorded that many Jews wished to return but were unable, others wished to emigrate to the US and other parts of Europe. Yet, beset by the dislocation of the War and the need to rehouse and resettle local populations, many states were unwilling to accept large-scale Jewish immigration.

Even Australia imposed severe restrictions on Jews, while welcoming people from other ethnic backgrounds. The justification, stated by the minister for immigration at the time was that, "Australia does not wish to import the problems of Europe". In 1947 (before the declaration of the State of Israel), Caldwell removed immigration on "humanitarian grounds" and quotas were imposed limiting the number of Jews who could arrive on any ship. In 1952 this was extended to bar any people from "behind the Iron Curtain", though this meant Jews in particular due to Israel's open-door policy. Denied the country of choice, many Jews had no option but to seek a new life in what became Israel.

The irony today is that today many Jewish people have returned to Germany where younger people regard life as less "stultifying" and where, in cities like Berlin, accommodation is more affordable. For a number of years older Israelis have been migrating to Germany because they can not afford to live on their income in Israel and because at least in Germany they can afford health care.

But none of this addresses the immediate issue. What practical steps can be taken to assure justice for all and peace in the region?

[Edited 2013-03-24 08:37:59]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 49, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1835 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 48):
One thing that stands out was the irreconcilability of that declaration and Woodrow Wilson's encouraging the adoption of the idea of the right of nations to self-determination adopted by the League of Nations. The mandate was impossible to carry out from the start. How can you promise a "homeland for Jews" and at the same time assert

Not everyone thought it was irreconcilable and not every (Palestinian) Jew wanted the doors to be opened to European Jews.

One of the two Eliahu's who assassinated Lord Moyrne in Cairo in 1946 (both were members of the Stern Gang), said at his trial that he was fighting for a Palestinian homeland free of British rule - he was not fighting for a sanctuary for all the Jews in Europe.

What was ignored (and surprisingly by the United Nations) were the sentiments of those native to Palestine, many of whom believed (rightly or wrongly) that an overwhelming influx of Ashkenazi Jews would be to their disadvantage.

It is also possible to say that under Ottoman rule, Arabs and Jews had lived in comparative peace in Palestine. This may have been because of a common enemy, the occupying force, but, as noted above, T E Lawrence spoke admiringly of the area called Palestine before the Turks were kicked out, as did numerous others.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 48):
In contemporary attitudes to Balfour in the West and Israel, he is described as something of a hero.

I've never called him a hero and I think disgraceful things were done to the Jews. But, as a British Palestinian - one of the last of my kind? - I think he got at least this one thing right and it is more than possible, or might have been then, to provide a bi-national framework of governance, however well or ineptly that may be instituted.

The Balfour Declaration was aspirational, but the events of history were the enemy of that aspiration.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 48):
But none of this addresses the immediate issue. What practical steps can be taken to assure justice for all and peace in the region?

I'd like to say work from the edges, as has happened with the restoration of ties between Israel and Turkey, and, importantly, for Israel to encourage a sense of participation among the Israeli Arabs, instead of the dis-enfranchisment many presently feel.

Since you raise Australia, I'll say that fifty years ago it would have been impossible for me to imagine that country's present head-turn to Asia, or its (comparatively) peaceful embrace of its new Asian populations, long considered the Yellow Peril. When I first arrived in Australia in 1967 uni-racialism - White Australia - was institutionalized and had been for a very long time. It is within my life-time that an Australian Prime Minister said, without controversy, that "two wongs don't make a white."

But as in any complex national or racial situation, I think nothing much will happen until both sides stop being guided by the extremists.

mariner

[Edited 2013-03-24 12:00:49]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
What do you know of "most Americans"? Just what makes you an expert on who and what "most Americans" are?

Well for one thing, I read plenty on foreign affairs and world issues.

Interesting Thesis done from the University of Sydney, on just how insular many Americans are on world politics and affairs.

http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitst...m/2123/8289/1/Lindsay%20Gumley.pdf

http://worldjournalism.wordpress.com...s-its-a-major-problem-for-america/

And

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/03/20/how-dumb-are-we.html

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
You should be reminded we are all entitled to our opinions and arguments on this blog.

Never said otherwise have I ?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 29):
The U.S., as the celebrated world "leader" in democracy and other stuff like that should force Israel to make one law. One law, with one article. And enforce it. Else they won't get any $$$ anymore.

The law should read like this: "Every person in Israel and its occupied territories has the same rights and the same duties. No person shall be treated differently because of his or her religion, origin, race, place of living, sexual orientation and other factors."

  

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 30):
No, that is a very condescending generalization.
Like saying all gays are feminine, or all people of Scotch or Dutch decent are cheap.

Well on this side of the planet its very well understood as being correct.Go read up on it .

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 32):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 30):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Its a very well known fact

No, that is a very condescending generalization.

It is a generalisation, but it can also be a measurable phenomenon. A number of Pew global attitudes surveys show that Americans are less interested in international affairs than their counterparts in developed nations. Being less interested, they are generally less informed.

        

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
This fact must be written down somewhere. Can you please show it to us?

See my earlier reply's with links.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Why do you continue to make statement's like this?

I don't think I'm the only one saying that !

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
Your opinion

Sorry, but I cant take any credit for that....Its the opinion of the international community really. How many times have we been over this, yet Israel sticks its head in the sand and just carries on and on, violation after violation and new settlement after new settlement.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 39):
Nah, it's the truth. As long as any Palestinian can't pick up a random part of land from area of Israel and start building a settlement there without any permission from the actual owners of that area you have no right to do that either.

Now aint that right.
  

Quoting mariner (Reply 49):
I'd like to say work from the edges, as has happened with the restoration of ties between Israel and Turkey, and, importantly, for Israel to encourage a sense of participation among the Israeli Arabs, instead of the dis-enfranchisment many presently feel.

  



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 51, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1786 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
They have one. It is called Jordan...

Ahhhhh - Netanyahu's old hobby-horse - the Jordanian Option.

How does that work - a whole mass of people should be uprooted their ancestral homeland and go somewhere else? If Israelis can claim a historical association with Palestine the Palestinians can claim a greater one - they didn't leave in the first century.

I recall the words of the great Israeli diplomat, Abba Eban, defining the three critical processes of how the Shoah developed:

(i) You cannot live amongst us as equals.

(ii) You cannot live amongst us.

(iii) You cannot live.

Your "Jordanian Option" fulfils two of those three.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7914 posts, RR: 51
Reply 52, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1638 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
They have one. It is called Jordan...

Ahhhhh - Netanyahu's old hobby-horse - the Jordanian Option.

How does that work - a whole mass of people should be uprooted their ancestral homeland and go somewhere else?

I guess the Native Americans should kick us Americans out and ship us back to Europe, Africa, and Asia??? Basically the same thing



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 53, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1634 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 52):
I guess the Native Americans should kick us Americans out and ship us back to Europe, Africa, and Asia??? Basically the same thing

The Aborigines of Australia, too. In Tasmania we came very close to wiping them out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/oct/14/australia.features11

"The lost tribe

Only a handful of native Tasmanians escaped being slaughtered by the English in the 19th century


And England did get rid of all the Jews in England in the 12th century - having massacred a fair number of them first, before the rest were expelled.

mariner.



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 54, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 52):
I guess the Native Americans should kick us Americans out and ship us back to Europe, Africa, and Asia??? Basically the same thing
Quoting mariner (Reply 53):
And England did get rid of all the Jews in England in the 12th century - having massacred a fair number of them first, before the rest were expelled.

Difference is

We've learnt from past !

Unfortunately though, Israel continues to go down the path of Barbarism....

Pity for them as history will show

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
I still find it deeply ironic that the Jewish people - who undoubtedly suffered terribly from the 'religious intolerance' meted out by Hitler and his gang - now appear to be determined to maintain the 'State of Israel,' which is now itself based on religious discrimination. The only difference being that the discrimination these days is Jews oppressing Muslims, whereas in the 1940s it was largely Christians oppressing Jews.......?
 Sad

[Edited 2013-03-28 23:25:47]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 55, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1591 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 54):
Difference is

We've learnt from past !


It took a long time - centuries - I would't brag about it.

Emancipation of Jews in England didn't happen until 1835 - reversing what was begun with the York Massacre in 1190.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12564 posts, RR: 25
Reply 56, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 54):
We've learnt from past !

That will be true, at least until the next time "you've" forgotten what "you've" learned from the past...

Let's face it, land grabs are hard to resist, and the past is not prologue...

I for one thought the US had learned from its involvement in Vietnam, but GWB and the neo-cons seemed to have skipped that chapter of history.

Ah that quaint time when we were worried about excess surpluses!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2874 posts, RR: 8
Reply 57, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 56):
That will be true, at least until the next time "you've" forgotten what "you've" learned from the past...

How true...

Yes, history has a habit of repeating itself now doesn't it !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 58, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
Ahhhhh - Netanyahu's old hobby-horse - the Jordanian Option.

How does that work - a whole mass of people should be uprooted their ancestral homeland and go somewhere else? If Israelis can claim a historical association with Palestine the Palestinians can claim a greater one - they didn't leave in the first century.

I recall the words of the great Israeli diplomat, Abba Eban, defining the three critical processes of how the Shoah developed:

(i) You cannot live amongst us as equals.

(ii) You cannot live amongst us.

(iii) You cannot live.

Your "Jordanian Option" fulfils two of those three

Funny how when the Jordan controlled the West Bank they did not give the "Palestinians" a homeland. Do you really think that if the Syria, Jordan and Egypt had defeated and destroyed the Zionist state at any time between 48 and now that we would even be talking about creating a new state for the "Palestinians"? No the land would of been divided between the three nations and those living in that area would of become part of those states. To say otherwise is pure fantasy. Some of those nations even tried to make deals with Israel in land swaps for keeping refugees. You give us the West bank and we will keep 300,000 refugees. Do you really think that the Arabs would create a new nation out of the spoils?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 54):
Unfortunately though, Israel continues to go down the path of Barbarism....

Barbarism is the path of the Muslims who have been trying to liquidate the Zionist since the late 30's.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7914 posts, RR: 51
Reply 59, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 58):
Funny how when the Jordan controlled the West Bank they did not give the "Palestinians" a homeland. Do you really think that if the Syria, Jordan and Egypt had defeated and destroyed the Zionist state at any time between 48 and now that we would even be talking about creating a new state for the "Palestinians"? No the land would of been divided between the three nations and those living in that area would of become part of those states. To say otherwise is pure fantasy. Some of those nations even tried to make deals with Israel in land swaps for keeping refugees. You give us the West bank and we will keep 300,000 refugees. Do you really think that the Arabs would create a new nation out of the spoils?

...assuming that is what would happen, that should mean Israel should continue to do its current actions, and it is ok because "the Arabs states may do the same thing?" In the next part of your post, you pretty much are saying that Israel is taking/trying to take the moral high road over its neighbors, so what does it matter if the Arab states would have not made a Palestine? Israel should do what's right regardless...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 58):

Funny how when the Jordan controlled the West Bank they did not give the "Palestinians" a homeland. Do you really think that if the Syria, Jordan and Egypt had defeated and destroyed the Zionist state at any time between 48 and now that we would even be talking about creating a new state for the "Palestinians"? No the land would of been divided between the three nations and those living in that area would of become part of those states. To say otherwise is pure fantasy. Some of those nations even tried to make deals with Israel in land swaps for keeping refugees. You give us the West bank and we will keep 300,000 refugees. Do you really think that the Arabs would create a new nation out of the spoils?

Funny, how ignorant some Israelis are with regards to treating humanely people they live amongst. If people are angry enough to blow themselves up...there has to be a reason for it. Some people never want to wake up and smell the coffee.

You never acknowledged my previous statement, so I guess that hits too close to the belt for some... Mazel tov.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 58):

Barbarism is the path of the Muslims who have been trying to liquidate the Zionist since the late 30's.

And the barbarism of the Israelis who advocate destruction of innocent and captive Palestinians. Palestinians who have no autonomy, no self-determination, no freedom of movement, few job opportunities? Really? You want to be that one sided?

Let us have peace, and not this old bickering and jealousy. I am so sick of it, but I will still straighten you out.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25280 posts, RR: 85
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1406 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 58):
Funny how when the Jordan controlled the West Bank they did not give the "Palestinians" a homeland.

I don't know what that has to do with anything I said. You said that Jordan is the Palestinian state:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 38):
They have one. It is called Jordan...

Why should the Palestinians be forced from their land to live among the Hashemites?

Here's another - after the Diaspora, the Jewish people had nearly two thousand years to go back from Europe to Palestine. Why didn't they go back and why did so many go to America instead?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (1 year 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

I know you're a self proclaimed zionist and you seem to be pretty proud about it but, zionism is widely opposed by many people, not just Muslims. Look at your own brothers and sisters... Just thought I'd point that out. This is my own observation but, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of zionists were actually non Jews

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