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Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 444 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2870 times:
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The court has overturned her appeal and she must go back to Italy to stand for retrial..

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...-retrial-meredith-kercher/2020289/

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCplKlinger From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Actually, she does not, and more than likely won't be compelled to. She will be tried in absentia if she if found guilty, Italy can request her extradition. I can see the US turning that request down rather quickly. The Italian justice system is not particularly known for it's trustworthiness. As long as she stays out of an EU member country, there is little to no chance of her ending up back in Italy.

User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

This is double jeopardy in the US which is not allowed by the US Constitution. I highly doubt Amanda Knox will go back even if extradition is requested. The US State department would have grounds to turn it down. The prosecution would have to put forth an extemely compelling argument of her guilt. Based on the last trial, I do not think this is possible.


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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

Actually the Italian justice system is pretty solid, not afraid to go after the powerful, and independent from politicians. Now, I have really no opinion on that particular story, Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.


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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2687 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This is double jeopardy

No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well.



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User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

Unless there is new evidence, a retrial seem illegitimate to me.

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 5):
Unless there is new evidence, a retrial seem illegitimate to me.

A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!



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User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well.

Indeed. She hasn't been recharged; the verdict from a lower court has been annulled on appeal. No double jeopardy would apply.

Wonder what the rationale for this ruling is though.



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User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!

Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!

I believe you are confusing civil with criminal. If she was found innocent, it is double jeopardy. If it was a hung jury or mistrial, different story.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.

At what point? As long as the formal appeal process remains open, no decision is written in stone. Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

It doesn't make a very good impression when a lower court first convinces a defendant, then an appeals court nullifies the conviction, and then a higher appeals court questions the previous acquittal. But this can happen and does indeed happen - not only in Italy of course.



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User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Actually the Italian justice system is pretty solid, not afraid to go after the powerful, and independent from politicians. Now, I have really no opinion on that particular story, Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

Untrue.

I think she's guilty as sin, but also that any government should only get one opportunity to try somebody for a crime.


If folks in Rome want to let the courts bend Italians over a barrel that's fine, but I don't think the US should extradite Knox in this case.



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29698 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Unfortunate after the railroad job the Italians tried to pull and are still trying to follow through with.

I doubt she will over go back to Italy. Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.



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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
I believe you are confusing civil with criminal.

No, I don't.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
If she was found innocent, it is double jeopardy.

That's a double 'no'. The prosecutor can appeal against any decision made by a court that appears to violate judicature, and Mrs Knox wasn't found innocent, even though she's considered to be innocent.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.

Is that just a cheap shot at non-Americans or can you actually substantiate your claim?



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29698 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

NoUFO

I am thinking of that EA-6B crew that Italian officials didn't want to follow the existing SOFA on. particulaly the two backs eaters. The mock charges against this alleged CIA officials that even the national government there refused to ask extradition on even though they had been convicted In absentia the case was that bad. And of course the railroad job previously done on Ms. knox.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This is double jeopardy in the US which is not allowed by the US Constitution.

Doesn't that cover Roman Polanski ?

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 11):
I think she's guilty as sin, but also that any government should only get one opportunity to try somebody for a crime.

Well that's the US system. In other countries both parties can appeal, whether the decision is innocence or guilt. In France it is quite new (last 10 or 15 years) before that none could appeal for criminal trials (the ones with a jury).



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User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well

In Italy, maybe, However they were aquitted AND released from prison by the Appeals court in Italy. In the US. You can't stand trial twice for the same crime. It is double jeopardy.

I understand Italy has different rules, but the way this is regarded in the US is still double jeopardy. Either way after the geologist fiasco, if I was innocent I wouldn't return voluntarily to Italy for a retrial



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User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29698 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2550 times:

Aesma,

roman Polanski was convicted and fled before sentencing. But for a child molester (statutory rape) that probably is par for the course.



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User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2545 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
That's a double 'no'. The prosecutor can appeal against any decision made by a court that appears to violate judicature, and Mrs Knox wasn't found innocent, even though she's considered to be innocent.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well that's the US system. In other countries both parties can appeal, whether the decision is innocence or guilt. In France it is quite new (last 10 or 15 years) before that none could appeal for criminal trials (the ones with a jury).

Congratulations...but I fundamentally disagree with that and would not like to see our government send a US citizen to Italy to be tried for the same crime again after an acquittal.

For the same reason I understand and concur when other countries who disagree with our system (ie capital punishment) likewise refuse to extradite people to the US.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Doesn't that cover Roman Polanski ?

No, different situation. He was found guilty but fled the US because he feared the judge was going to reneg on a plea agreement. I don't know who was legally right or wrong in that case but it's not strictly a 'double jeopardy' issue.

On a side note, I'd like to go on record to say that Roman Polanski is a douche for admitting to having sex with a 13-year old girl in a plea bargain in the first place. If it were my daughter, the courts would be least of his concerns!



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User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26493 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

I actually think that she should not be extradited by the USA if requested by Italy. I don't believe in the Italian justice system to give her a fair trial. They had the chance they ruled and it should be case closed.

There are also plenty of times I think EU countries should not extradite to the USA too.



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User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2535 times:

Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?


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User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
In the US. You can't stand trial twice for the same crime. It is double jeopardy.

When you were found innocent, you can't stand trial for the same crime again, that's right. Talks in American media about double jeopardy being non-existent in Italy is bull I am pretty sure, even though I do not really know Italy's judicial standards. It is just that the case wasn't closed in Mrs Knox' case.

edit:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):
Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

Yes and - apparently - yes.

[Edited 2013-03-26 10:38:05]


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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2526 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 14):
NoUFO

I am thinking of that EA-6B crew that Italian officials didn't want to follow the existing SOFA on. particulaly the two backs eaters.

Well if an Italian military plane had done something similar in the US I'm sure the US public would be fine if the crew went home with no questions asked.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 18):
No, different situation. He was found guilty but fled the US because he feared the judge was going to reneg on a plea agreement. I don't know who was legally right or wrong in that case but it's not strictly a 'double jeopardy' issue.

He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.



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User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.

He willingly agreed to be convicted of a lesser offense, expecting a lighter punishment. I don't know enough about his specific plea agreement to say whether what the judge was planning to do in 1978 was legal or not.

[Edited 2013-03-26 11:56:57]


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User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
It is just that the case wasn't closed in Mrs Knox' case.

But it was closed. The appeals court aquitted her. She walked out without handcuffs and was set free. You don't get a redo in the USA. The Italians will rerun their case, but I don't think their is anything else compelling. The defense mishandled the evidence, and in the very realest sense, there was no real motive.



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User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2611 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
Indeed. She hasn't been recharged; the verdict from a lower court has been annulled on appeal. No double jeopardy would apply.

As soon as the not guilty result was delivered by a jury and accepted by the lower court judge then any further actions by other courts against her is double jeopardy.

It is logical to allow upper courts to overturn a guilty verdict when those upper courts find inappropriate actions by the prosecution (government). It is not appropriate for prosecutors to continually retry a person because they don't like the jury's verdict. Is it not possible that the Italian prosecutors could continue to retry Amanda Knox over and over again until she's an old woman it juries continue to deliver decisions that the prosecutors don't like.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

In terms of extradition is certainly is for the US. Amanda might need to get a list of countries that are safe to visit and countries that re not safe, but for now she needs to put her passport away.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7916 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
But it was closed.

From what I understand it wasn't because the prosecutor challenged the acquittal in due time. Mrs Knox acquittal was, to my knowledge, never a final legal decision.

Edit:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
In terms of extradition is certainly is for the US.

Yes, that's certainly right. She would have to stay clear from Schengen member countries (if not the entire European Union), but in the U.S. she's certainly safe.

[Edited 2013-03-26 11:49:47]


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User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2677 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
I doubt she will over go back to Italy. Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.

While the Italian justice system can appear chaotic, slow, even eccentric, they do not carry out judicial murder, including of, inevtiably, innocent people.
Neither do they set up extra judicial gulags on what is essentially a colony.
They both sound harsh i know, I'm just comparing catch all judgements from outsiders of nations justice systems.

Every justice system in every country has it's quirks, in my one for instance, it has a very eccentric idea of defamation and libel which is turning London into a one stop shop for the rich to sue, not just oligarchs but the Scientologists of all people.

I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.
You have to wonder if it has been in all the coverage in the US of Knox and 'her ordeal', 'her journey', likely with cheesy background music, photogenic images and soft focus footage.

The investigation and trial was complex and messy, however any police officer worthy of that title has to consider all the evidence, witness, forensic and the behavior of suspects.
Knox at least has still some serious questions on that front that were never answered.

Italy is a Western nation, a democracy, a US ally, it's not a theocracy run by Mullahs, or a one party state like China, or even a state where the leaders distort the judiciary for political/economic gain, like Mr Putin does.

It is also worth noting that Knox's former boyfriend, an Italian national, is also facing re-trial, which renders absurd the whole rather silly 'they are trying to screw an American over'.

Knox should go clear her name if she's innocent, if she can take time off from her whole highly lucrative book deal/talk show circuit thing.

[Edited 2013-03-26 12:54:42]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

From wikipedia :

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal against the judgement before the Corte d'Appello (Court of Appeals), that will retry the defendant. The judgement passed by the Court of Appeals can be appealed, again, before the Court of Cassation, that cannot rule on merits. Both the Court of Appeals and the Court of Cassation must examine and rule on every appeal. They can uphold, modify or quash the sentence.

The prosecutor can appeal all judgements issued by the Court of first instance — this means that a not-guilty verdict can be appealed and overturned too -. The Court of Appeals can hand down a more serious penalty than the Court of instance.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2580 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
As soon as the not guilty result was delivered by a jury and accepted by the lower court judge then any further actions by other courts against her is double jeopardy.

Yes- you're right. I misread the details of the original trial.

I hope they don't extradite her TBH (even though I believe she's guilty, based on ludicrously subjective reasons). Once these kind of cases turn into a nationalistic pissing contest the verdict may as well be made on the toss of a coin. Better to err on the side of caution and leave as is.



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User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2570 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
Knox should go clear her name if she's innocent, if she can take time off from her whole highly lucrative book deal/talk show circuit thing.

I disagree strongly. To go is not in her best interests. Sacrifice more time on a wild goose chase because the Prosecutors want to prove that their flimsy motive has flimsy backing evidence in front of a jury again? The line on this is already 50/50 , and now that the Prosecutors are pushing for a retrial, it does nothing for Knox to return. The evidence has been presented, she has testified. The means by which the prosecutor's physical evidence was presented and tested has been shredded by most academics ( which is the reason for the aquittal in 2011) . To go back is to give play to the Prosecutor's sex games gone bad theory that involved 4 people.



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User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9396 posts, RR: 27
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2558 times:
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Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.

Out of curiosity, what would that do, except for escalate people's emotions and have them calling for blood? I don't think anyone's forgotten about her, given than this all started with her murder....



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User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26493 posts, RR: 58
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2546 times:

The extradition treaty between the USA and Italy apparently says that once found innocent they cant extradite. I guess its case closed.


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User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 30):
I disagree strongly. To go is not in her best interests.

You are probably right.
The interests of justice, for the Kercher family however, is a different matter.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 31):
Out of curiosity, what would that do, except for escalate people's emotions

I agree about that, up to a point.
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.
The airwaves, Internet and column inches would been straining under the weight of emotion, anger, accusation, cries for a re-trial and pure blood lust masquerading as 'justice'.

I don't have a view on whether Knox is innocent, guilty of taking part in a murder, I do have a view of the canonisation of her however by much of the US media.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2502 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
The interests of justice, for the Kercher family however, is a different matter.

Guede is already in prison for the murder . They have their justice. The DNA, and footprint in the blood matched him.

However the Prosecutors and police want to beleive that 3 people attacked and murdered Meredith Kercher for a sex game, and the no corroberating details from 3 presumed participants?

It's a waste of time and money. The Prosecutors blew the initial case, and the evidence was blown by the police.



Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.

Let's go one further. Imagine it was a big sports star that was aquitted of murdering his wife and lover? OJ Simpson was aquitted, and everyone had to deal with it.



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User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 11):
If folks in Rome want to let the courts bend Italians over a barrel that's fine, but I don't think the US should extradite Knox in this case.

Agree....but you never know how insane our State Dept will be given the past several years.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
From wikipedia :

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal against the judgement before the Corte d'Appello (Court of Appeals), that will retry the defendant. The judgement passed by the Court of Appeals can be appealed, again, before the Court of Cassation, that cannot rule on merits. Both the Court of Appeals and the Court of Cassation must examine and rule on every appeal. They can uphold, modify or quash the sentence.

The prosecutor can appeal all judgements issued by the Court of first instance — this means that a not-guilty verdict can be appealed and overturned too -. The Court of Appeals can hand down a more serious penalty than the Court of instance.

That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5961 posts, RR: 27
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2476 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.


He still needs to serve his time for his conviction. If he returned to the USA he wouldn't be retried, as his conviction still stands.

He plead guilty to a lessor charge and was awaiting sentence when he left the country. Many criminals are out on bond between sentence and trial or plea deal. He didn't serve is time for crime, he served time in jail before trial (42 days), but there was a plea deal instead. People charged with a crime may or may not get released on bail (or there could be bail set and nobody can pay it so they stay in jail). Many times a judge will take the time served before trial for credit on sentence, but you still have to serve time after sentence. If you skip out before sentence you are a fugitive.

Example. Lets say you serve 30 days in jail while awaiting trial and you get sentenced to 24 months in prison a judge may credit you with the time already served and you get 23 months in prison. It happen on much smaller sentences too. I have known people who have been sentenced to 10 days in jail, but are given credit for the short period in jail before they posed bail so they spent 9 days in jail, with credit for one.

For what its worth.... 42 days wouldn't be the typical sentence for a man who gave a 13 year old drugs and anally raped her. The Sentence would be measured in years not days.



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User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

Maybe it is, OJ Simpson was mentioned, what to say about a system however that appears a lot of the time to be a branch of the 'infotainment' industry?


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9396 posts, RR: 27
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2357 times:
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Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.
The airwaves, Internet and column inches would been straining under the weight of emotion, anger, accusation, cries for a re-trial and pure blood lust masquerading as 'justice'.

That's fine, but my opinion on what I said wouldn't change.

It's a confusing thing for me sometimes (and to be fair, I've never been in this situation). More often than not, when a previous conviction is overturned, you hear the family of the victims crying out in protest, saying that justice has been discarded for their loved one. You never hear "oh, well maybe that person didn't actually do it".

And I soft of feel the same way about people saying "remember the victim!" It feels like a call to convict someone, anyone, to appease to family of the victim. Not saying that that's what's meant by it, it's just the feeling I get.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6103 posts, RR: 9
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

To each their own. The French system is pretty similar (both having roots in ancient Rome) and if it has its flaws, I'm glad we mostly don't have pleas (they were controversially introduced recently, but only for small charges usually judged even quicker than a plea takes), I'm glad we don't have prosecutors or police that are elected politicians, I'm glad we don't put more than 1/1000 inhabitants in jail...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
For what its worth.... 42 days wouldn't be the typical sentence

In 2013 no, but this was the 70's.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
He didn't serve is time for crime, he served time in jail before trial (42 days), but there was a plea deal instead.

Yeah, and what was the plea ? He was expecting probation, then the judge changed his mind. I guess the US system can change its mind after the fact, after all.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):
More often than not, when a previous conviction is overturned, you hear the family of the victims crying out in protest, saying that justice has been discarded for their loved one. You never hear "oh, well maybe that person didn't actually do it".

This happened recently with the Florence Cassez situation. Similarly, she's an attractive young woman claiming her innocence and being unfairly treated by a foreign justice system (in Mexico). I don't know if she was guilty of anything, but I can't respect a justice system that fakes her arrest on live TV. After 7 years in jail and a change of president in Mexico the supreme court released her, precisely because it was shown that she was used as a political pawn to show the government was doing something about the kidnappings. She's back in France, but at no point was it proven that she was innocent. At least she's not suspected of murder so those who believe in her guilt should consider the time she spent in jail, her 60 years sentence was ridiculous.



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User currently offline3DoorsDown From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 376 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

Trust me, not ALL Americans think she's innocent.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Is that just a cheap shot at non-Americans or can you actually substantiate your claim?

No. I think it was a shot at Italians. Or at least their justice system.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3389 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 37):
Maybe it is, OJ Simpson was mentioned, what to say about a system however that appears a lot of the time to be a branch of the 'infotainment' industry?

That is true only if one wanted to see it that way.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8202 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

I think she's guilty.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 40):
Trust me, not ALL Americans think she's innocent.

   Good looking, though.


User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 43, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2175 times:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.

At what point? As long as the formal appeal process remains open, no decision is written in stone. Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

This whole debate makes no difference though as far as extradition is concerned. We have to remember that numerous differences exist between the civil law system in Italy and the common law system in place in the US. In Italy this obviously is not double jeopardy (as you're arguing), but in the US it is. Because of this, the US could not act to extradite Knox as they would be participating in an action (offering her up for a double jeopardy trial) that is unconstitutional.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
I understand Italy has different rules, but the way this is regarded in the US is still double jeopardy.

This is all that matters in the end with the US being the extraditing party.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):
Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

I've always been confused by this as well. I know civil law is different from common law, but what generally is the burden of proof prosecutions have to prove in civil law systems? I can only comment from the common law-US perspective, but I never understood how she was found guilty in the first place as it did not appear to me that the prosecution proved 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that Knox had committed the murder (contaminated evidence, lack of motive..etc), perhaps someone with more knowledge of the two legal systems can speak to this.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2216 posts, RR: 8
Reply 44, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

She is so guilty. I think she is guilty as sin.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):

I actually think that she should not be extradited by the USA if requested by Italy. I don't believe in the Italian justice system to give her a fair trial. They had the chance they ruled and it should be case closed.

There are also plenty of times I think EU countries should not extradite to the USA too.

I also agree with this.                  

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):

Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

It was some weird drunk group sex that turned bad. Very bad.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):

Well if an Italian military plane had done something similar in the US I'm sure the US public would be fine if the crew went home with no questions asked.

I'm sure all the American A.net members would be perfectly silent.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 34):

Guede is already in prison for the murder . They have their justice. The DNA, and footprint in the blood matched him.

If the murder was committed by multiple people, one person cannot take the blame.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

According to whom? You? Based on what?



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5943 posts, RR: 30
Reply 45, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2129 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Similarly, she's an attractive young woman claiming her innocence and being unfairly treated by a foreign justice system (in Mexico).

She is attractive, sure. Unfairly treated? She lived like royalty in her cell. Having an entire one for herself. She had niceties as freshly ground coffee and specially cooked food. She got flown back to Paris in AF on C upon her release and received like royalty at the Elysée. Shame on the French government for treating a convicted kidnapper, an accesory to murder, a torturer and a sadist like a persecuted martyr.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't know if she was guilty of anything,

She was guilty as sin. Of kidnapping, torture and of accesory to murder.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
After 7 years in jail and a change of president in Mexico the supreme court released her, precisely because it was shown that she was used as a political pawn to show the government was doing something about the kidnappings.

No. You got your facts wrong. The Supreme Court released her because the Mexican DA violated her due process. She was not used as a pawn for anything. I, for one, am glad that she was released so certain DAs here learned a lesson and in the future this does not happen again. The guy who screwed this all up, by the way is in hot water now, and will probably go to jail. Still this does not make her innocent and even though she was rightfully released, her victims were left without justice. Not her fault though.

And she would have been released a lot earlier if loud mouthed Sarcozy had kept his mouth shut about the matter, but if anybody used Florence as a pawn, it was him, for his own popularity at home. He tried bullying, instead of diplomacy, exhibiting a huge disregard for another conuntry´s justice system and its times. He is the one to be blamed for that torturer not being released earlier.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
She's back in France, but at no point was it proven that she was innocent.

Because she was guilty.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
her 60 years sentence was ridiculous.

Why? That´s what you get here for kidnapping, torture and accessory to murder.

I see no parallels between this case or the Amanda Knox case. If anything, Cassez was rightfully released and with the blessing of the Supreme Court of a country. I don´t think Knox got that. The opposite, it seems.

[Edited 2013-03-27 01:35:05]


MGGS
User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 46, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
She is so guilty. I think she is guilty as sin.

I believe this too, but admit that it is only based on the most superficial data points since (we don't get to see the real evidence that goes in front of the jury).

Frankly I'm naturally inclined to believe that most people on trial are guilty which of course can come up to bite me in the ass from time to time.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently onlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12034 posts, RR: 47
Reply 47, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1966 times:
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Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
I do have a view of the canonisation of her however by much of the US media.

I bet nobody would think she's innocent if she weighed 250lbs and looked like the back-end of a bus.   



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 48, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
If the murder was committed by multiple people, one person cannot take the blame.

Sure, but who are you going to pin it on. Knox and boyfriend who were so stoned they don''t recall anything and called the cops , or the guy's who's semen was found in the victim, Hand Print on the wall with DNA and victim's blood , and load in the kamode who fled to Germany, that pins it on the other two?

The Police and the Prosecutios screwed up most of the other phyiscal evidence. From my point of view, whether the police are right about motives. Their theory doesn't line up with any of the other storeis told by the defendents or the physical evidence.

What i do wonder and remains to be seen is why the retrial is happening. My one thought on this is that the judge is going to grant retesting of the DNA for the prosecution. This is the one thing that was not allowed in the appeals case where the defense ripped apart the validity of he handling and testing of all the items.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Good looking, though.

She should do Playboy.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 5961 posts, RR: 27
Reply 50, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1925 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Yeah, and what was the plea ? He was expecting probation, then the judge changed his mind. I guess the US system can change its mind after the fact, after all.

He was expecting probation but he feared the judge would change his mind so he left. It still makes him a fugitive because he never served his sentence... Probation is still a sentence and if you don't serve it you're still on the hook, plus the penalties for skipping out. Yes Judges can change their mind before sentence and a defendant can withdraw a plea, it happens all the time.

I don't know why people get so worked up over this guy. If he was just some average guy who raped a 13 year old the most people would want to throw the book at the guy, but since he is a famous director it is some miscarriage of justice. Same thing with Amanda Knox, if she wasn't good looking nobody would care. People get murdered all the time and it is 30 second blurb on the news.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 45):
Why? That´s what you get here for kidnapping, torture and accessory to murder.

She's lucky to get 60 years for that. Those charges can be life here.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

I may be mentally ill, but after reading this thread all I could think of was:


Fox
Socks
Box
Knox

Knox in box.
Fox in socks.

Knox on fox in socks in box.

Socks on Knox and Knox in box.

Fox in socks on box on Knox.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 52, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.
You have to wonder if it has been in all the coverage in the US of Knox and 'her ordeal', 'her journey', likely with cheesy background music, photogenic images and soft focus footage.

Knox should go clear her name if she's innocent, if she can take time off from her whole highly lucrative book deal/talk show circuit thing.

Regardless of whether or not a-net has mentioned Meredith Kercher's name, she has been mentioned frequently in the US media...since this all started. I've heard her name many, many times again over the past 2 days. I live in Seattle. I do feel sorry for Kercher's family though.

Whether or not you believe Knox is innocent or guilty it's a low blow to chastise her for selling a book. Her entire family mortgaged all they owned to defend their daughter and granddaughter who was in a European jail thousands of miles from home. She really had no choice after she was freed but to sell a book to keep her parents and grandparents in their homes.

I'm with others here, the US would never extradite her back to Italy. As they say here, the prosecutors had "their bite at the apple" and they didn't convict her. She'd never be retried here in the US so she won't be forced to go back if they find her guilty, then innocent, then guilty again.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 53, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 52):
She really had no choice after she was freed but to sell a book to keep her parents and grandparents in their homes.

True, which takes us back to:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 49):
She should do Playboy.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 54, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1800 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 53):
True, which takes us back to:

Since she got back to my town, she's been incognito. Other than a few pictures immediately after she returned I couldn't tell you what she's doing now. So, I bet Playboy is out of the question. That is, unless the questionable Italian judicial system releases video of her showering during her 4 years in Italian prison.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 55, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 52):
Whether or not you believe Knox is innocent or guilty it's a low blow to chastise her for selling a book. Her entire family mortgaged all they owned to defend their daughter and granddaughter who was in a European jail thousands of miles from home. She really had no choice after she was freed but to sell a book to keep her parents and grandparents in their homes.

That's one big factor in barring a retrial after a Not Guilty verdict. There are plenty of innocent people who have been faced with massive legal bills because of errors. Continually allowing a retrial is simply a way to punish those who the prosecutors "believe" are guilty.

Maybe if the prosecutors had to reimburse legal fees for those found Not Guilty there would be fewer abuses of the system.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 56, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 52):
Whether or not you believe Knox is innocent or guilty it's a low blow to chastise her for selling a book. Her entire family mortgaged all they owned to defend their daughter and granddaughter who was in a European jail thousands of miles from home.

Maybe Knox and family did need the money, I don't know, the whole soap opera style media circus, not just confined to the Knox case, I find reprehensible anyway.

It seems a bit rich to always assume foreign legal systems, in other Western democracies, are somehow intrinsically flawed with the rather superior assumption that the US system is not.

It's very patronising to keep up with this assumption that foreigners are more prone to creating an injustice than the US system.
Just the other day a man was freed after over 20 years after being wrongly convicted in the US, at least he's still alive, there have been numerous cases of deeply flawed, some to the point of absurdity, injustices carried out in the US.

This of course happens in other Western democracies too, a whole bunch immediately come to mind in the UK.

The Italian system, no doubt flawed in some ways too, has developed and evolved just like other systems, this whole idea that 'of course Knox would be unfairly treated because she was tried in a foreign country' is just not on.

Especially from a nation, that in very recent history, has broken numerous international laws by kidnapping people - including from the streets of supposed allies - 'rendering' them in secret torture chambers, some in nations run by dictators with an appalling human rights record.
Whose government all too often gets very put out when demands for extradition of other nationals are not met with clicked heels and a cry of 'Sir, Yes Sir!'

And the Italian legal system is 'dubious?'
No, it's just a bit different in some respects, not the same thing at all.

[Edited 2013-03-27 17:50:09]

User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 57, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 56):
Maybe Knox and family did need the money, I don't know, the whole soap opera style media circus, not just confined to the Knox case, I find reprehensible anyway.

There's no maybe about it. They were broke. Her family were only able to travel back and forth to Italy because a family friend worked for an airline and they got ID90 passes. It's well documented that her parents and her grandparents both mortgaged their homes so she could have a legal defense in Italy.

Quoting GDB (Reply 56):
And the Italian legal system is 'dubious?'
No, it's just a bit different in some respects, not the same thing at all.

Of course it is. In what way is it fair that prosecutors can fail at convicting you and for the rest of your life you have to worry that even if you've been ruled innocent you can be taken back to trial again? Yes, that's dubious.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3333 posts, RR: 9
Reply 58, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This is double jeopardy in the US which is not allowed by the US Constitution.

Depends, in the event of a mistrial IIRC the defendant can be re-tried given new evidence or perhaps the selection of a new jury if both sides agree.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 5):
Unless there is new evidence, a retrial seem illegitimate to me.

I tend to agree, even with most mistrials they aren't tried again unless something new is presented.

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.

I don't know how you familiar with the courtroom media in the US or know who Nancy Grace is (yes I came up with that term  ) but from what someone mentioned about the Casey Anthony trial was they justice wasn't done for the victim and the victim in that case was ignored.

In criminal cases it isn't about the victim it is all about whether the person all trial committed the crime in question beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
The prosecutor can appeal all judgements issued by the Court of first instance — this means that a not-guilty verdict can be appealed and overturned too -. The Court of Appeals can hand down a more serious penalty than the Court of instance.

IMHO this makes the US justice system (outside of perhaps capital punishment) is a better system and it is based on the concept that it is better to let 100 guilty men walk free than letting one innocent man go to jail.

Having the prosecution who relatively speaking has unlimited resources to appeal will create abuse.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
She is so guilty. I think she is guilty as sin.

OJ is as guilty as sin also but in the courtroom the DA couldn't prove it and that is all that matters.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 59, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 56):
It seems a bit rich to always assume foreign legal systems, in other Western democracies, are somehow intrinsically flawed with the rather superior assumption that the US system is not.

I think it mainly just comes from ignorance in people on both sides not realizing the two operate under fundamentally different legal systems. It goes both ways though and really is just a matter of preferring what you're used to and know, a lot of people in Europe think the US legal system is nutty and vice versa.

Quoting GDB (Reply 56):
It's very patronising to keep up with this assumption that foreigners are more prone to creating an injustice than the US system.

Well, as pointed out, it's not so much a question of whether or not an injustice was carried out by the Italians so much as it is that what's legal in Italy is not legal in the US. A retrial of Knox by this nature is perfectly legal in Italy, but according to US laws it's unconstitutional, thus the US Justice Department won't extradite her.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 12
Reply 60, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Its not like the Italians don't know there are problems with their legal system.  When Bernie Madoff was sentenced the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera published a front-page cartoon mocking Italy’s trial system. On one side was a U.S. courtroom, where a judge was handing down a 150-year sentence after a six-month trial. On the other, an Italian courtroom with a judge handing down a six-month sentence after a 150-year trial.

Fair use from the New York Times.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2216 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1618 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 48):

Sure, but who are you going to pin it on. Knox and boyfriend who were so stoned they don''t recall anything and called the cops , or the guy's who's semen was found in the victim, Hand Print on the wall with DNA and victim's blood , and load in the kamode who fled to Germany, that pins it on the other two?

If multiple people commit murder, you pin it on everybody! If in the US you were on trial for murder, marijuana use is no defense, in fact it would make you look worse in the eyes of a jury/judge. By the way, I'm sure you mean "the guy's whose semen" and "commode."



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 62, posted (1 year 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 57):
There's no maybe about it. They were broke. Her family were only able to travel back and forth to Italy because a family friend worked for an airline and they got ID90 passes. It's well documented that her parents and her grandparents both mortgaged their homes so she could have a legal defense in Italy.

Is there no kind of , what we call legal aid in the US?
People travel far more and with greater frequency than ever before, so inevitably more cases will involve citizens abroad?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 59):
Well, as pointed out, it's not so much a question of whether or not an injustice was carried out by the Italians so much as it is that what's legal in Italy is not legal in the US. A retrial of Knox by this nature is perfectly legal in Italy, but according to US laws it's unconstitutional, thus the US Justice Department won't extradite her.

But the crime was not committed on US soil, against someone neither American or Italian.

I would totally understand objections if the case was being tried in.......you can think of a whole bunch of nations here, Italy as an EU member has to have a whole load of legal and human rights safeguards.


User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1268 posts, RR: 3
Reply 63, posted (1 year 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1556 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 62):
But the crime was not committed on US soil, against someone neither American or Italian.

True, but countries routinely base their extradition decisions on what awaits their citizens on the other end. For instance, countries that are against capital punishment can refuse to extradite people to the US when the possibility of a death sentence exists.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4157 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 61):
If multiple people commit murder, you pin it on everybody! If in the US you were on trial for murder, marijuana use is no defense, in fact it would make you look worse in the eyes of a jury/judge.

You can pin it on everyone, but you have to have the evidence. The prosecution lacks it. Remember Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt ? The courts will have their day here. However with as much information is lacking, this case will go on for centuries withoug a resolution due to appeals. I don't think the prosecution has any new evidence. I think what they want is all the DNA retested, which is what the appeals court strangely rejected.

You can have your feelings on who is guilty or not, but with reasonable doubt and evidence it has to be concrete. Otherwise we wind up with a bunch of innocent people in jail.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1850 posts, RR: 10
Reply 65, posted (1 year 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 62):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 59):
Well, as pointed out, it's not so much a question of whether or not an injustice was carried out by the Italians so much as it is that what's legal in Italy is not legal in the US. A retrial of Knox by this nature is perfectly legal in Italy, but according to US laws it's unconstitutional, thus the US Justice Department won't extradite her.

But the crime was not committed on US soil, against someone neither American or Italian.

Where the crime was committed doesn't matter though in this instance. In acting to extradite her back to Italy for a trial that is illegal under US laws, the US government would effectively be a party to unconstitutional actions against a US citizen.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 63):
Quoting GDB (Reply 62):
But the crime was not committed on US soil, against someone neither American or Italian.

True, but countries routinely base their extradition decisions on what awaits their citizens on the other end. For instance, countries that are against capital punishment can refuse to extradite people to the US when the possibility of a death sentence exists.

 checkmark 

[Edited 2013-03-28 10:35:52]

User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 925 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Yep, we had a war over here...one of the reasons was the abuse of the State...Double Jeopardy was written into our Constitution for this very reason and one of the early Articles .....Such that the State could not keep retrying citizens after a jury, of the accused peers, I might add... found them innocent, guilt has to be proven BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

And the way the prosecution mucked up this one, I could only image what a US Appellate Court judge would say...



Carpe Pices
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9396 posts, RR: 27
Reply 67, posted (1 year 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1437 times:
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Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 58):
Depends, in the event of a mistrial

....then it's not double jeopardy.  



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 68, posted (1 year 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
If the murder was committed by multiple people, one person cannot take the blame.
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 61):
If multiple people commit murder, you pin it on everybody! If in the US you were on trial for murder, marijuana use is no defense, in fact it would make you look worse in the eyes of a jury/judge.

In the US, at least in Texas, the person who actually committed the murder is too often able to get a plea deal for a life sentence, and testify against the accessory persons like Amanda Knox - who will get the death penalty.

She should thank her lucky stars that this happened in Italy, and not in Texas.

Yes, I think she is guilty. The only thing I've seen of her 'innocence' was part of an expensive and well orchestrated PR campaign.

No, I don't blame her for the book deal. There were people standing in line begging her to take the money. She only had to talk to a ghost writer a few times. Honestly, would any of you do any different in such a case?

At least she had a good use for the money, to repay her parents and grandparents.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 55):
That's one big factor in barring a retrial after a Not Guilty verdict.

A lot of people are taking the appeals judge ruling as a Not Guilty verdict. It was not.

His issue of an opinion that she was not proven guilty and the 'acquittal' are similar to what happens in the US when an appeals court says there were problems with the trial.

In the US, Appeals Courts do not issue acquittals. They send the case back to the lower court for another trial, and hopefully the prosecution will choose to not retry the person(s) if there are serious doubts about the guilt.

In Italy, the Prosecution has the right to appeal the Appeals Court ruling, rather than having to go back to the lower court for another trial.

All the Italian courts have done in this latest ruling - is to apply the US standard to Amanda Knox - that her case be remanded back to the trial court.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 49):
She should do Playboy.

While some things have been made about her looks - she is in no way close to being Playboy material.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 48):
What i do wonder and remains to be seen is why the retrial is happening.

Because it is the same as a US Appeals Court ruling.

Rather than being 'acquitted' as the Italian judge ruled - in the US the case would be sent back to the lower court for retrial. She should have been sent back for retrial. If the appeals court in the US found that the person was truly not guilty, the case would still be sent back to the lower trial court - possibly with an order for a directed verdict of not guilty.

But the Italian judge allowed her to be released - pending a decision about another trial.

[Edited 2013-03-28 13:12:49]

[Edited 2013-03-28 13:14:26]

User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 925 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

Rfields5421.."All the Italian courts have done in this latest ruling - is to apply the US standard to Amanda Knox - that her case be remanded back to the trial court."

Nope, there is no "US standard" for the prosecution to appeal an innocent verdict from a jury. The State does not have that right...The "US Standard" is the 5Th Amendment.

There is no such thing as prosecutorial "do overs" in the US.

http://law.justia.com/constitution/u...rosecution-following-mistrial.html



Carpe Pices
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1195 times:

Well if she is retried I hope both parties have sorted out their stories and found solid evidence.

From reading the newspapers (unreliable sources I know) there do seem a number of points that need clearing up. The victims parents need to know for sure their daughter's murderer hasn't got off and I'm sure the accused would like final closure on the case.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 3
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1155 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 68):

While some things have been made about her looks - she is in no way close to being Playboy material.

Have you seen some of the models they have in the mag without make-up and lighting, she's easily as attractive.


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