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Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage  
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

It occurred to me that most of the reasons against same sex marriage are based on religious views with people often quoting the bible. Are there any/many reasons why people are against same sex marriage that have nothing to do with religion?

Thanks for your (civilised) replies.


Fortune favours the brave
166 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBraybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 5678 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose, but as a gay man I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him . . .   

User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Quoting bristolflyer (Thread starter):
It occurred to me that most of the reasons against same sex marriage are based on religious views with people often quoting the bible.

I find this to be the ultimate fallacy of this line of reasoning. Those that are so strongly outspoken about same sex marriage often ignore other aspects of the Bible. Leviticus 18 and 20 and Deuteronomy all contain so called verse about how same sex marriage is sin, but yet other passages are often ignored. (See Deuteronomy 12–26.)

Deuteronomy 14 (New International Version):
These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep ... camel, the rabbit or the hyrax.

Lamb? Venison? Anyone?

Quoting bristolflyer (Thread starter):
Are there any/many reasons why people are against same sex marriage that have nothing to do with religion?

I think those that do prefer traditional marriage on non-religious grounds are just those who are uncomfortable with the idea of two same sex partners cohabiting. It's a change thing, I think.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4128 times:

Here are a few:

1) The government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.

Regardless of the sensibility of this philosophy, the fact remains that the government is in the marriage business, and as long as it is, equal protection under the law demands that gays be allowed to marry as well. So this argument doesn't really work.

2) The tax benefits that married couples get in essence punish single people, so we shouldn't be extending them to gays as well.

Likewise, one can't deny a certain segment of the population the same rights others have just because others feel slighted by it. So this doesn't work either.

3) Allowing gays to marry would represent an economic hit to the country, as more people would be eligible for reduced taxes by virtue of being married.

And while this may be true, that's the cost of doing business in a country where we have equal protection.

So none of these really work. But then again, there really is no justification to ban gay marriage at all.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6088 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4128 times:
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Some people just don't like the idea of two people of the same sex getting married even if they don't care about religion.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone

Good stuff!

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him .

I avoid women that want to get married.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone

Good stuff!

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him .

I avoid women that want to get married.

I probably haven't had lamb in a while, but venison is great.

Also, you don't really hear people get up in arms about man and woman that live together for a long time (maybe even marry) but have to kids? I'd like to see a protest: "Married? No children? SINNER!"   



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

I know a few non-religious people that aren't a fan of gays altogether just because they don't like the idea of a man having sex with a man. They find it "gross". But I should note that these people have never been outspoken about gay marriage, so I'm not sure if that counts towards the original question or not.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone?

Yes please! I had some fantastic lamb lollipop hors d'oeuvres at a networking event last week and have been craving ever since.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
3) Allowing gays to marry would represent an economic hit to the country, as more people would be eligible for reduced taxes by virtue of being married.

And while this may be true, that's the cost of doing business in a country where we have equal protection.

Interestingly enough, the marriage business would actually go a long way to counteract the hit suffered by the tax reductions. Weddings are a massive expense. When same-sex marriage was legalized in the state of Washington last year, many in British Columbia were quite worried about the wedding industry there since quite a large portion of their business was based on gay couples crossing into Canada to get married.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 5):
I'd like to see a protest: "Married? No children? SINNER!"

And god help the ones who have kids before getting married!!!   



Flying refined.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20506 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
as a gay man I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him

You and me both! I don't have anything against it if two guys want to exchange vows for whatever reason, but you won't ever find me doing it.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Gay people know from their own experience that different people can have fundamentally different preferences, simply by growing up being gay in a straight-dominted world.

But some straight are ignorant of that fact and adhere to the illusion that absolutely all people had to feel exactly alike and that variations could not exist.

This leads to the bizarre theory that gay people were "really" straight, but for some inexplicable reason acted against that presumed straight nature of theirs.

Despite the overwhelming implausibility of that false explanation, especially organized religions mostly stuck to it nevertheless.

This just gets more and more difficult with gay people no longer being mysteriously exotic objects of people's wild imaginations but increasingly just ordinary relatives, friends, neighbours and co-workers.

It's just a fact: Different people can and do in fact have different inclinations, and only acting against the one one actually happens to have would be "unnatural".

Discrimination advocates are simply ignoring a crucial bit of information and are constructing whole ideologies from that false idea.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6182 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4007 times:
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The ones I´ve heard:

1) Sex is for procreation, gays can´t procreate, therefore gay marriage is abnormal.

2) Sex between two people of the same gender is just gross.

3) It´s unnatural (no explanation given).

4) Gays are an embarrassement to all the straights. Now they have the gall to WANT to be married?

5) Gays are sexual predators, therefore can´t be near children, teenagers, or any other straight person for that matter.

6) Gay marriage will mean the destruction of the human race (A lot of people subscribe very openly to this line of thought. They can´t explain why, funnily enough)



MGGS
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19515 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

As has been pointed out. When you strip religion away, you are left with the honest answer:

"I think gays are icky and I don't like them."

You'd be amazed at the things that have been defended or opposed using religion. Slavery, denial of anesthesia to women in labor (even for C-sections), interracial marriage, women's suffrage, etc. etc. etc.


User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

Everything that has happened is all knee jerk reactions to "rights" of individuals without being properly thought out by those that write the laws.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6575 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3992 times:
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Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

Black and Whites have been able to marry for decades; and Polygamist marriage has not happened yet. What makes you think that Gay Marriage would cause it?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

Can your pets talk to make decisions? How would you know that you pet want to get married?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):

You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

What does this mean?

[Edited 2013-03-26 08:38:32]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
1) Sex is for procreation, gays can´t procreate, therefore gay marriage is abnormal.

I'd say this is solely a religious argument. Genesis 1:28



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21558 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3969 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

No, you don't. Marriage between two people is a completely different concept from marriage between multiple people.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

No, you don't. Marriage is between two consenting adults. A pet is not, and cannot be, a consenting adult.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

But that IS a religious argument, which is not the point of this thread.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

What?

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 13):
I'd say this is solely a religious argument. Genesis 1:28

I have to disagree with you that it's solely a religious argument. I've heard people approach it with an exclusively biological mindset who believe that life only exists to multiply itself, and since gays can't procreate and grow the population, it is unnatural.



Flying refined.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20506 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
When you strip religion away, you are left with the honest answer:

"I think gays are icky and I don't like them."

There's also the contingent out there who believe that since gays and lesbians can't procreate, they must recruit straights. Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
There's also the contingent out there who believe that since gays and lesbians can't procreate, they must recruit straights. Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".

Was that why that gay guy was hitting on me? And here I thought I was attractive. Dang.



Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20506 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 17):
Was that why that gay guy was hitting on me?

There are people out there who believe that recruitment is a core principle of «The Gay Agenda».



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2038 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3928 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 12):
and Polygamist marriage has not happened yet. What makes you think that Gay Marriage would cause it?

I doubt we'll see Polygamy legalized in the West. The link to sexual and psychological abuse has been well established by authorities in the US and Canada, and successfully proven in court.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11576 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 6):
I know a few non-religious people that aren't a fan of gays altogether just because they don't like the idea of a man having sex with a man.

I don't like the idea of a woman having sex with a woman. But, as long as I don't have to see it, I don't care.

Amazingly, people who think male/male sex is disgusting also think that female/female sex is just fine. That one makes my head hurt.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20506 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
Amazingly, people who think male/male sex is disgusting also think that female/female sex is just fine. That one makes my head hurt.

When you think of it in terms of recruitment, it makes perfect sense. If the women tried to recruit the men into having sex with them, it would simply be 'the more the merrier'.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10679 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

My basic opinion is that people should be left alone with what they think is their sexual way unless it means harm to anyone. No hatred here against homosexuals.

But: the idea of marriage and the underlying sense of it is to tie man and woman closer together to produce kids.
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples. Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

That said, I anyway do think that only marriages that produce kids should be allowed to enjoy tax reductions in the long term. Marriages not producing kids for whatever reason should loose at least part of their their fiscal benefits after 15 years or so. Marriage shouldnt be allowed to be perverted into a tax-evasion model because that is only discriminating singles.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6594 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

President François Hollande is applying his platform promise of "marriage for all" currently, while himself not believing in marriage and asking for countries he visits to accommodate his partner.

This to say that just because it doesn't concern you doesn't mean you are legitimate in opposing it.

Now, the right-wing opposition is against it, but officially not for religious reasons, because invoking religion would backfire. Last time it happened was in 1997 when deputy Christine Boutin, a devout catholic, brandished her bible in the National Assembly, she was booed and expelled and it demonstrated the conservatism of the right (conservatism being an insult similar to "liberal" in the US). She was against civil pacts aimed at gays but open for all, now she says those pacts are good and enough, marriage is only for a man and a woman. She even said that LGBT can marry, just do it with someone of the opposite sex !

Arguments are that "it's not natural" and that "children should have a father and a mother". Of course marriage itself is not natural but as long as they appear to do their jobs of opponents, who cares ? There is also the argument that children with two mothers/fathers will be victimized. Then they ask for a referendum. But they didn't do any when in power, even when 3 millions people were protesting in the streets.

I'm already jubilating at the thought of seeing them all admit, in 3-4 years, that they were wrong and now support the law.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19515 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".

If you *fear* me based on the idea that I might convince or "recruit" you to do something that you genuinely don't want to do, then you must think what I do is pretty "icky."

If you were actually confident that nothing I could say or do would convince you to turn gay, you wouldn't have such a fear.

So I lump that argument in with general animus.


25 vikkyvik : Have at it, I say! If you and your dog BOTH consent to getting married, I don't have a problem with that. Of course, your dog is not considered an ad
26 AeroWesty : Do you not have sex with women because you have neither any erotic or romantic attraction to them, or is it because you think women are "icky"? For m
27 Aesma : I'd say having less than two kids is actually helping humanity, in the current situation. But LGBT marrying often see marriage as a way to start a fa
28 RomeoBravo : There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all. Absolutely no reason.
29 AeroWesty : Marriage has legal ramifications. The state needs to be involved to legitimize a marriage simply by default, to give the union legal standing.
30 Mir : May I assume that you are also against the marriage of elderly couples or heterosexual couples that cannot, for one reason or another, have children?
31 mt99 : OK fine - so are you OK with Civil Unions? or just 2 guys living together for their entire life. In neither of these cases would children be produced
32 mt99 : You are German huh -.
33 CalebWilliams : It is for some, yes. Widely believed by whom exactly? The only people I've ever heard spout off such ridiculousness is a few people in the American f
34 RomeoBravo : It really doesn't. All a marriage is is a contract, the state only needs to know if it's breached.
35 AeroWesty : The state must first acknowledge what types of contracts are legal, before ruling on if there's a breach to the contract. There cannot be a breach to
36 Aesma : The reason is social engineering.
37 RomeoBravo : I've signed a lot of contracts recently without the state getting involved.
38 AeroWesty : So what? If the state wasn't there prior to back their validity in law, you probably wouldn't find the other party willing to sign the contract with
39 RomeoBravo : That's ok, the state i live in accepts written contracts.
40 Post contains images AeroWesty : So the state was involved then. Glad that's clear to you now.
41 RomeoBravo : Ok, but my point was the state needn't be involved in marriage, i didn't say the state shouldn't be involved in enforcing contracts.
42 KiwiRob : Bingo, that's pretty much my objection in a nutshell, I couldn't give a crap about religion, I have no problem with gay people, I just don't like the
43 AeroWesty : Roll back several posts to the marriage is a contract bit. Now let's return to Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage instead of RomeoBrav
44 mt99 : But why? Verbalize it.. State clearly - why this is. This is your chance. Was interracial marriage a "door opener"? That is fine. That is a completel
45 vikkyvik : I think the point is that there's no reason for marriages to be legislated and recorded by the state. There's no reason to file for a marriage licens
46 mt99 : How else would the state know that you are eligible for marriage benefits?
47 Ken777 : How many Justices on the Supreme Court are married and have children? Yet when it comes to two women having sex some of those same people will ask "C
48 TheCol : It was already challenged in Canada and upheld. If they appeal, the current laws will likely be upheld again. The RCMP and Crown Counsel have been on
49 aloges : People who believe that they could somehow be "converted" to homosexuality have a lot to explain to themselves; perhaps that they are, in fact, bisex
50 RomeoBravo : Sadly at this stage i had forgotten just how much you pine to prove me wrong at all costs, as such i was not choosing my words as carefully as i shou
51 bhill : The legal machinations of divorce here in Washington applies EQUALLY to ALL marriages....it was never an issue...even when all there was was Domestic
52 Post contains links AeroWesty : At the link below is an outline for how these folks think. I am Homophobic (and you should be too!) Illuminati = Secret conspirators. LOL, when all e
53 starbuk7 : I am not a Mormon but suppose I am in love with two different women, they love me, and we want to get married. We are all consenting adults and are a
54 mt99 : Easy: Interracial Marriage.
55 Aesma : Is having sex a contract ? Don't states/gov in the US go after men who fathered children even if they didn't agree to it ?
56 TS-IOR : Apart from the religious reasons, in my belief, same sex marriage will of course facilitate children adoption and/or artificial insemination... and th
57 starbuk7 : What does interracial have to do with it?? These people can be of any race! They want to marry more that one person and religion has noting to do wit
58 KiwiRob : I've got no problem with interracial marriage either, provided it's male female. I don't have any opinion for or against it. But it's not really, it'
59 mt99 : If you let black people marry white people what is next? That is not the question that the supreme court is answering is it? The question has always
60 mt99 : Interracial marriage was once defined as "alternative marriage" once. It may be similar argument, but that is NOT what the SC is debating now - is it
61 aloges : How exactly is it so? A child needs love and support, the latter including food, shelter and so on. If a homosexual couple can provide those, they're
62 Post contains links mt99 : "Mother Nature" is OK with Gays.. Every spring for six years Gentoo penguins Inca and Rayas have lovingly built a nest together, only to find that no
63 RomeoBravo : I believe it is preferable for a child to have a Mother and Father. That means in the case of adoption there should be a preference towards firstly a
64 mt99 : Should single parents gets their children taken from them and given to a heterosexual couple?
65 RomeoBravo : No. That's a ridiculous suggestion.
66 TS-IOR : It's my proper belief and i think there has even been studies around that. A child need parental care from both mother and father; mother at the early
67 Post contains images aloges : So you think that a belief of yours should keep others from adopting children - not their inability to provide for them or some other true shortcomin
68 mt99 : Why? You would obviously use the "law" to ensure children have a mother and father. That just a logical step in the same direction. . Why even risk a
69 vikkyvik : Well, if the state were removed from the whole marriage thing, there would be no marriage benifits. If you have consensual sex with someone, I think
70 luckyone : I have no problem with stupid people. I just have a problem with them reproducing, and that's it... I also don't have a problem with fat people. I ju
71 RomeoBravo : My there really seems to be a poor standard of verbal reasoning here. Actually i didn't preclude adoption. Just specified that couples who are able to
72 mt99 : So how would your "plan" be executed and enforced?
73 Acheron : You could argue the same thing for women's voting rights, interracial marriage, etc.
74 aloges : You did specify that you want singles and homosexual couples to be kept from adopting children until heterosexual couples have had "their turns". Tha
75 RomeoBravo : I specified it's preferable for a child to have a mother and father actually. I'm not sure where you got the quote ""their turns"" from. I would neve
76 Maverick623 : As long as the legal issues with consent are worked out, it's really no big deal. You're not stopping behaviors you don't agree with from happening j
77 KiwiRob : Showing your ignorance of NZ here, the natives have all the same rights and privileges (and more) as anyone else living in NZ, they always have had,
78 RomeoBravo : So there are facts that state it is not preferable to have a Mother and Father? Sorry but i'm going to have to see a source for that because i find t
79 CalebWilliams : Being a Mormon is neither here nor there. The Church of Latter Day Saints has long since denounced polygamy (and excommunicated those practicing poly
80 tugger : From where do you get this? Is it just "common knowledge" or specific factual proof? And did you account for living status, income, location, neighbo
81 flipdewaf : There are numerous reasons why the state needs to know. Next of kin is changed so the requirements in situations such as switching off life support.
82 AeroWesty : That ship has sailed. As it is, in the 2000 U.S. Census, 33% of female same-sex couple households and 22% of male same-sex couple households already
83 Post contains images flipdewaf : not having facts to support one line of thinking does not mean that the opposite is true no matter how much you might not like it, thats how science
84 CalebWilliams : You may not have had a father, but had you had two dads or two moms, you may have ended up with that "father figure" you feel you missed out on. The
85 Maverick623 : The fact is there are no studies that show having one male and one female parent is any better or worse than having two female or two male parents. .
86 Post contains links Ken777 : I believe that we need to recognize we will get through this issue and at that point we will look back at it just like we do with the "challenging cha
87 AeroWesty : What's interesting about the current vote is that the USSC has to come up with a solid legal argument why same sex marriage is unconstitutional or pi
88 Post contains links WestJet747 : My oh my, I believe this is the third time I've shared this video since becoming an A-net member. I think Mr. Wahls sums up the argument quite eloquen
89 Post contains images aloges : It wasn't a quote, otherwise it would have been in one of Anyway, I got the gist of your statement from this: Limiting singles and homosexuals to the
90 Aesma : About polygamy personally I believe love is possible at more than two, however that's usually not what you see in religiously based polygamy (polyandr
91 zrs70 : As a gay rabbi, and a member of the Central Conference of Reform Rabbis - who as a group has supported gay marriage for years - I am proud to be part
92 Post contains links zckls04 : Here's an example of a study which shows the exact opposite. http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/ffp10b.pdf Sexual orientation was found not to
93 Post contains links RomeoBravo : It sounds like we agree to an extent. I don't know what the exact formula is but i think it should play a considerable part. A mother and father figu
94 Post contains links and images aloges : Too funny. Someone else said it before: Once again, when I do quote you, you will see it appear in one of those boxes that say "Quoting RomeoBravo" -
95 zckls04 : That is one of those studies that looks convincing but is actually worthless. Most of the children with "same-sex parents" the author studies are act
96 Geezer : Non-religious reasons to oppose same sex marriage. That's what the discussion is supposed to be about ? First of all, I think the OP got a little mixe
97 Klaus : Based on what, exactly? This is the center of the topic of this thread. If your "belief" is based on ancient religious prejudice, then that has lost
98 bristolflyer : Happy to enlighten you (yes, my profile needs updating)...late 30s married heterosexual male living in the US. The reason I started the thread was th
99 aloges : I wonder how this "preference" might actually work. Suppose there is a five-year-old whose parents have become the victims of a violent crime, died i
100 Ken777 : You are assuming a "normal, happy marriage" which is often not the case. Substance abuse in the home, violence or any other problem in a traditional
101 Pyrex : No need for god to help anyone who has kids before getting married, that is what government is for - provide massive amounts of it. That is why over
102 seb146 : So, according to you, a five year old can sign a contract. A five year old can be issued a credit card. A five year old can recieve a drivers lisence
103 flymia : It won't affect my life much. If a gay couple wants to get married let them get married. I do think the SCOTUS has to make a decision on this though b
104 seb146 : Sounds like other issues....
105 RomeoBravo : Again i have never ever claimed this is anything to do with the sexual orientation of the parents. Merely there is a lack of *insert Gender* role mod
106 aloges : Do you even know what Godwin's law states? You could start by avoiding terms like because they show that you think of those children as statistics, n
107 na : No. I am only against sanctioned partnerships which are mainly contracted beause its about saving tax. As said thats discriminating singles. A geneti
108 NAV20 : I've been wondering why this is such a big issue. Here in Oz, homosexual couples are free to live together, and I'm sure it's the same in the USA. But
109 mt99 : Then your marriage should have been revoked. Plain and simple. By your own words: No kids, no "Marriage"
110 Quokkas : That is not an argument than can be used against same-sex marriage in Australia. Here you don't automatically receive any tax offsets or allowances s
111 seb146 : Castration? That's the best you can come up with? That's low. I have family in Montana. If we were to go visit them and one of us had a brain anuryzm
112 CalebWilliams : See: Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement. If the only reason one is in a marriage is to save on taxes, then perhaps they should be
113 Ken777 : So would that mean "Kids, No Divorce"? The BS comments related to kids in these arguments are pretty worthless because we supposedly have a separatio
114 mt99 : His marriage was a fraud. He had no children.
115 Mir : There is implicit state involvement in any contract, however, because ultimately the state will be the enforcement mechanism. The fact that there is
116 RomeoBravo : Who said anything about banning marriage? I am saying take the state out of marriage. Let people or religions define it as they want. The state hasn'
117 Aesma : Well if it's all about paying less taxes then people could get married for that reason and not actually live together, or is that prohibited ? If not
118 Mir : Technically speaking, perhaps. But if the state is enforcing a contract that the people involved consider to be a marriage contract, then for all int
119 CalebWilliams : Religions are already able to define marriage how they want and therefor perform marriage ceremonies of their choosing. The only people that say othe
120 RomeoBravo : No, sorry, i can see where you're coming from, but the state has only got involved in contract enforcement. It is blind to the reasoning behind that
121 mariner : Did you not want to get married when you were young? I didn't, and (presumably) would not have wanted to if I were straight, but I have always though
122 seb146 : That will get rid of the tax breaks and who can see whom in the hospital and survivor's benefits and wills. This fight for marriage equality is more
123 Post contains images NAV20 : No, I didn't want to at all, mariner, I was happy just 'playing the field' in my spare time; if anything I was scared of the whole idea of marriage.
124 mariner : The point is that you did get married, there was no barrier to you dong so. But why should you be able to do that and others not? If a bloke meets th
125 Klaus : The idea of fixed gender roles is mostly fictional – and where it is a sad reality, it is enforced by authoritarian regimes or cultures which is ab
126 Post contains images Quokkas : In Australia marriage is defined in law by the Marriage Legislation Amendment Act 2004. That amendment inserted a definition into s5(1) of the Marria
127 Post contains images Klaus : Wow. Blatant bigotry poured into rigid law to explicitly enshrine discrimination. Just as sick as the reactionaries elsewhere.
128 AirAfreak : I find, to have this to be even an issue in the year 2013, is quite embarrassing as a member of the human race. Our own beloved household pets will lo
129 seb146 : 128 replies and the only non-religious reason is procreation. That means people who choose not to have children or people who can not medically have c
130 mariner : Hopefully, it will soon be corrected in New Zealand - hopefully - but I agree with you. I pay taxes as a single man, but I make almost no call on the
131 MSPNWA : I wish the government would have never gotten involved in a God-given gift of marriage, but I understand why they did. There's an economic benefit to
132 Post contains links trav110 : Yes, we do. The American Psychological Association has filed a brief saying that not a single study has found children of lesbian or gay parents to b
133 AirAfreak : I wish you the best of luck for you and for your friends in New Zealand that share our plight... I am still in shock that in the State of California,
134 seb146 : And, because of my upbringing, I have two hetero brothers and me. The gay one. Our mom was the active parent and our dad was not around. He lived wit
135 AirAfreak : AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN! If I was given a questionnaire at birth and had the choice, I would choose to be gay because I fall into the stereotype of dress
136 Quokkas : First, if you assert that marriage is "God-given" then it is up to you to prove that to be the case. Second, if marriage is God-given, why do those w
137 mariner : Hopefully, for you too - soon. Whatever the Supreme Court decides (June?), it will be a watershed moment. I think they will avoid doing anything eart
138 Post contains images EA CO AS : Enact laws so that going forward, any and all civil ceremonies uniting two people are "civil unions" under the law, carrying the same legal weight as
139 Mir : Perhaps. But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be as successful, which is what's really important. -Mir
140 Post contains images us330 : To prevent them from going through a bitter divorce?
141 Aesma : Well some people like the word marriage and don't see it as a religiously connoted word. In France we have a civil marriage (mariage civil) performed
142 seb146 : That is what a lot of people are trying to work for here. One "non-religious" argument I have heard that really bothers me is: how do I explain to my
143 mt99 : But that argument does not get solved by banning gay marriage. Men will still live with men and women will still live with women. Unless you ban "peo
144 mariner : I'm not sure why it needs to be explained other than as the fact that it is. As you correctly point out, the child has no innate value judgements of
145 135mech : Well said!!! So far, this thread is great! At my work, we have been chatting about this, and the "religious" issue is the dominant argument. MANY MAN
146 luckyone : Bingo. Most people are lousy historians with little to no perspective beyond what they're spoon-fed and many are also equally lazy and don't want to
147 HOONS90 : Non-religious reasons to oppose same-sex marriage? I can't think of any rational ones at all. On the other hand, there are plenty of reasons to suppor
148 seb146 : My father used media to base his hatred upon. He saw the limp wristed, child molesting queers on 1960s and 1970s TV as his sole basis for hating gays
149 135mech : WOW... All I have to say to that is "WOW"... that is a very "simplistic" view of life. There are Millions of HORRID full couple parents and Millions
150 Post contains images Geezer : First of all, I really don't know how many Mormons there are in total, but as I understand it, the Church of Latter Day Saints officially "outlawed"
151 2707200X : A few nights ago Bill O'Reilly said in a snippet that I heard from MSNBC that the opponents of gay marriage know that they are on the loosing side of
152 seb146 : I have seen this too. I wonder if he is near the end of his contract and has something bigger planned? I always thought he and Hannity would be hesit
153 Post contains links mariner : But Rush Limbaugh has said that gay marriage is now "inevitable": http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...baugh-gay-marriage-now-inevitable/ Rush Limb
154 luckyone : They're saving political face and doing their best to avoid political suicide. They are politicians first and foremost and form their principles late
155 seb146 : wow. That's scary. He is still wanting people to fight against it. Isn't he one of the ones who is all for states doing what they want? Like issuing
156 luckyone : Yes it is scary. But the reality is he is still an important mouthpiece for the Republican Party, a fact both sides are well aware of. As the GOP's o
157 DocLightning : Yes, but he is lamenting it. When your own "States' Rights" argument starts to work against you and yet you still oppose same-sex marriage, I think I
158 mariner : What else would you expect? I doubt Rush Limbaugh will ever actually "embrace" marriage equality and cheer it on - I doubt he believes it is a good t
159 seb146 : What I don't get is: Peole like Limbaugh and Gingrich go on and on about "traditional family values" but the irony is lost on them that they are divo
160 Post contains links mariner : Yes, but you'll fry your brain trying to understand their rationalisations because, as in the Bible, they are adulterers and break one of the ten com
161 Post contains images Klaus : I don't see how. Marriage is a joint decision by consenting adults to become relatives, which in view of the formal consequences and obligations requ
162 DeltaMD90 : You may be right but you may be dead wrong too... I don't know why you are being so cynical. Some people can legitimately have a position different f
163 seb146 : I am cynical when it comes to pundits on either side. I alluded to this before, but it wasn't a complete surprise O'Reilly came out for same sex marr
164 DeltaMD90 : The smarter ones do usually put a lot of time into what they are saying, and I almost can just pass it off as a difference in opinion. But there is u
165 FlyDeltaJets : Personally, so long as people are not being taken advantage of and they are all consenting adults, there is no problem. Yep The challenges of raising
166 seb146 : It actually does make sense. There are things the left wing pundits argue for that fly in the face of what they stand for too. Gay marriage is one th
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