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Muslims Declare Victory In Anti Islam Lego!  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26503 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

Austria’s Turkish community claimed a victory in its fight against Danish toy giant Lego yesterday after the firm agreed to withdraw a Star Wars toy set featuring a mosque-like building inhabited by an obese, hookah–smoking alien, following complaints that it was anti-Muslim.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...over-antiislamic-lego-8555610.html

I think Ive heard it all now. Shame Lego caved in to this nonsense.


AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

And if it had been the Jews doing so and won there would be applause and congrats and support.

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 1):
And if it had been the Jews doing so

What about the Christians? Or the Buddhists? Really, dividing everything up in the world as one religion against the other is really petty.

All that the Lego is is a replica from a Star Wars movie. That's it. Nothing else. It's ridiculous for the toy to be banned. Somehow, in all of the ensuing years, it's never been an offense yet!



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
What about the Christians? Or the Buddhists?

Do they ever protest at anything, the only times Ive heard of Bhuddist doing so is against the Bhudda Bar chain, or do you have to jump to defend Jews and castigate Muslims always?

It may be silly for Muslims to have done so, but I'm pointing out how it would have been if Jews were involved.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 1):

And if it had been the Jews doing so and won there would be applause and congrats and support.

They are not so given to hysterics. The hypersensitives and perpetually outraged and offended would point to this as an example of institutionalized cultural racism. For the most part, it’s a projection of their own insecurities.

Anyone who feels so threatened by such an inoffensive thing as Legos based on a 30 year old movie, must harbor deep insecurities about their own faith. Indeed they might be so insecure, they might do things that signal the emptiness of their faith loud and clear, such as threaten physical and legal sanctions against those who do not agree with their faith.

The truly faithful would shrug it off.

[Edited 2013-04-01 18:32:33]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
do you have to jump to defend Jews and castigate Muslims always?

Feel free to point out where I've ever done so (you can look, but you won't find any examples). Pointing out the partisan religious swipe you made is not tantamount to taking sides.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The truly faithful would shrug it off.

As I have, also said this, did you read it?

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
It may be silly for Muslims to have done so,
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):

So you think you wouldn't have sided with them had they done so?


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4390 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 6):
So you think you wouldn't have sided with them had they done so?

Had who done what? There wasn't any religious connotation to the Jabba-The-Hut figure.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

It seems to have caused Turks more offence than to Muslims in general, emphasis in article is only on Turk community and no one else, perhaps due to resemblance to that Turrkish mosque though I don't see it looking similar, yes it does look like a mosque though and has a minaret too.

[Edited 2013-04-01 19:08:43]

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15485 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Austria’s Turkish community claimed a victory in its fight against Danish toy giant Lego yesterday after the firm agreed to withdraw a Star Wars toy set featuring a mosque-like building inhabited by an obese, hookah–smoking alien, following complaints that it was anti-Muslim.

That's odd. The hutts and jawas always exhibited Jewish stereotypes. Muslims would make more sense if they were angry about the sand people.

Edit: I totally forgot about that one creature in the prequels who was Anakin's owner and sold spaceship parts. That guy is basically the most stereotypically Jewish looking and acting an alien could be.
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
What about the Christians?

I'm sure the Westboro Baptists dislike Star Wars for some reason or another.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
They are not so given to hysterics.

Jewish groups sunk a deal for Allianz to buy naming rights to what is now MetLife Stadium.

[Edited 2013-04-01 21:06:44]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9400 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4283 times:
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Quoting 777way (Reply 1):
And if it had been the Jews doing so and won there would be applause and congrats and support.

Not from this Star Wars fan.

Quoting 777way (Reply 8):
It seems to have caused Turks more offence than to Muslims in general, emphasis in article is only on Turk community and no one else, perhaps due to resemblance to that Turrkish mosque though I don't see it looking similar, yes it does look like a mosque though and has a minaret too.

That so?

But in January this year the set started to provoke outrage in Austria’s Islamic community...

Anyway. I'm sorely disappointed in Lego for this one. From the article:

“This sort of thing does not belong in a child’s bedroom,” said Melissa Gunes, a spokeswoman for Austria’s Turkish Cultural Association.

THEN DON'T BUY IT FOR YOUR CHILD.

Christ, what kid between 9 and 14 HASN'T seen Return of the Jedi????????



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

But it also says:

. Austria’s Turkish community claimed a victory. .....a spokeswoman for Austria’s Turkish Cultural Association...... Critics also claimed that the palace had an uncanny resemblance to Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia mosque........the TCA complained, adding ........the president of the TCA, said in a statement: .... The decision followed a meeting in Munich between Turkish community leaders and Lego executives......

Lego are not removing it immediately but from 2014 after selling a good number and perhaps making a decent amount if it sells well.

[Edited 2013-04-01 21:29:12]

User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9400 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4259 times:
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Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
But it also says:

Oh, my fault. I read your post as saying the country Turkey, rather than Turks.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

The correct answer was : this has nothing to do with any religion. Contact Disney for further information.

Apparently the outrage is due to the building vaguely resembling the Hagia Sophia. I guess catholics and orthodox should be offended then, as this is originally a christian church, especially the dome !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinebwest From Belgium, joined Jul 2006, 1356 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Meanwhile, on Lego.com.

Quote:
A few media have reported that the product is being discontinued due to the mentioned criticism. This is, however, not correct.

As a normal process products in the LEGO Star WarsTM assortment usually have a life-cycle of one to three years after which they leave the assortment and may be renewed after some years. The LEGO Star WarsTM product Jabba's Palace 9516 was planned from the beginning to be in the assortment only until the end of 2013 as new exiting models from the Star Wars universe will follow.


As much as I dislike religion, I dislike dishonest media even more...

[Edited 2013-04-02 05:55:10]


I love my Airport Job! :)
User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1286 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

I suppose the Inuit will be going after the Hoth playset next.


We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1201 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

I am a Muslim myself. However, I think this Austrian Turkish community objection is ridiculous. It may make more sense if they say the toy offends Turkish people, not Muslims.

User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting bwest (Reply 14):
Meanwhile, on Lego.com.

Good on Lego. I particularly like this phrase:

Quote:

The LEGO Group regrets that the product has caused the members of the Turkish cultural community to interpret it wrongly

In other words, "we apologize that you are a bunch of imbeciles".....



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineEDKA From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
withdraw a Star Wars toy set featuring a mosque-like building inhabited by an obese, hookah–smoking alien, following complaints that it was anti-Muslim.

A new level of ridiculous...

Quoting 777way (Reply 1):
And if it had been the Jews doing so

But they weren't Jews...why would you even mention Jews here??

Get back to me when the Jews will complain about something as trivial as this....


User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 1):
And if it had been the Jews doing so

See answer 18.

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
Lego are not removing it immediately but from 2014 after selling a good number and perhaps making a decent amount if it sells well.

Good on Lego.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 18):
Get back to me when the Jews will complain about something as trivial as this....

Mel Gibson?   


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

Quoting EDKA (Reply 18):
But they weren't Jews...why would you even mention Jews here??

Just pointing out standards practiced here as observed. The toy resembles a mosque anyways it has a minaret too.


User currently offlineRedd From Poland, joined Jan 2013, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
it has a minaret too.


It looks more like a bell tower to me.


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6666 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Based on this stupidity my image of Mohamed is now that of a hukka smoking giant slug. I can't help thinking this wasn't the intention of Austria's Turkish Muslim minority.

Don't you just hate it when minorities screw things up for everyone else?


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
Just pointing out standards practiced here as observed. The toy resembles a mosque anyways it has a minaret too.

It resembles Jabba's Palace in the film much more than a mosque. Why don't you complain about the film instead?

Or is it just because Lego are Danish? Seems like you're the one with double standards  



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting Redd (Reply 21):

Might to you but I would have said so if it appeared the same to me.


User currently offlineCalebWilliams From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 274 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

Please keep in mind that not all mosques have minarets. I've been to two mosques in the United States, neither of which have one.


Caleb Williams MSP AUS STL AMS CPH LGW YYZ
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):
The toy resembles a mosque anyways it has a minaret too


Sorry, I did a search for minaret to see what it was, then looked at the images associated with minaret and none of those images even come close to looking like Jabba the Hutt's lego palace. I see no resemblance at all.

This being offended stuff is really silly, you do not have the right to NOT be offended by things in life, people need to get over things and themselves.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Anyone who feels so threatened by such an inoffensive thing as Legos based on a 30 year old movie, must harbor deep insecurities about their own faith. Indeed they might be so insecure, they might do things that signal the emptiness of their faith loud and clear, such as threaten physical and legal sanctions against those who do not agree with their faith.

It's not insecurity. They're compelled to act that way because their prophet demands it. If this were centuries earlier, they'd have just taken the scimitar to Lego's head.

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
uncanny resemblance to Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia mosque

The irony being, of course, that it was an Orthodox church before it was conquered. You know, when the Turks overtook Constantinople and killed everyone, raped and enslaved the women, children, that little matter from the 15th Century.

But architectural and historical facts get in the way of good old fashioned inflamed butthurt by Muslims who, proving once again, they can't get along with anyone. Anywhere.

And piss on Lego for capitulating.


User currently offlinecjg225 From United States of America, joined Feb 2013, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

I read past the first post expecting this to be an April Fool's joke. I am disturbed by the fact that it is not.


Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3241 posts, RR: 17
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3901 times:
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Quoting slider (Reply 27):
But architectural and historical facts get in the way of good old fashioned inflamed butthurt by Muslims who, proving once again, they can't get along with anyone. Anywhere.

Was waiting for that, yes Slider according to you all Muslims are terrorists and they can not go along with anyone, have you ever visited Muslims in Washington DC? I lived there for over 30 years and i found that they did get along with other Americans, Christian, Jews and Muslims. The same applies to other cities i visited. So i don't know where you get your ideas from.
As for the Lego story, well those Muslims should forget about those small items and get involved in protesting the massacre against Muslims in Burma. As far as i know a Lego never killed anybody.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
It's not insecurity. They're compelled to act that way because their prophet demands it. If this were centuries earlier, they'd have just taken the scimitar to Lego's head.

No, the prophet does not demand that they behave this way. This is human stupidity, pure and simple.

1) By calling this "anti-Muslim bias" they are self-confirming their own stereotypes. At no point did it ever occur to me that Jabba or anything about him might in any way be related to Islam. THEY pointed out that he is fat and smokes a hookah and keeps slave girls, like a Sultan might. Until they brought it up, I doubt anyone actually drew such a connection. Now that they did...well, come to think of it...  

2) Islam strictly bans the likenesses of people or things in art. To make a likeness, one must study a thing so closely that it could turn into something like worship. Judaism has a similar prohibiton on attempting to make any likeness of God. Islam does not ban this sort of thing.

3) I think Lego basically agreed to end production of the line at the end of the planned production run. Next time, Lego needs to show some backbone.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3867 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
As far as i know a Lego never killed anybody.

But what if Lego said no? What then? A fatwa? a call to kill the infidel plastic brick makers?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
No, the prophet does not demand that they behave this way.

Go read the quran and the hadiths....


User currently offlinevirginblue4 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

I'm sorry, but this has to be one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever read. People are actually offended over some lego bricks?

It does not come preassembled. If you are offended due to what the building looks like, build it differently. Nobody is forcing you to build it as it is shown on the box!

Even if it did come preassembled, get over it! It's a toy!!!!



The amazing tale of flight.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
And piss on Lego for capitulating.

I've never known you to pass up an opportunity to voice your hate for Muslims, but try reading the whole thread before commenting:

Quoting bwest (Reply 14):
A few media have reported that the product is being discontinued due to the mentioned criticism. This is, however, not correct.

As a normal process products in the LEGO Star WarsTM assortment usually have a life-cycle of one to three years after which they leave the assortment and may be renewed after some years. The LEGO Star WarsTM product Jabba's Palace 9516 was planned from the beginning to be in the assortment only until the end of 2013 as new exiting models from the Star Wars universe will follow.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoting 777way (Reply 1):
And if it had been the Jews doing so and won there would be applause and congrats and support.

That is pure conjecture. Please prove your point, because it just looks like the typical Jews vs. Muslims nonsense.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3241 posts, RR: 17
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3825 times:
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Quoting slider (Reply 31):
But what if Lego said no? What then? A fatwa? a call to kill the infidel plastic brick makers?

It seems you know Muslims more than i do, then you tell me, till i read about this in here i never read or heard anything about this subject, but as usual you never miss a chance to show how much you hate Islam and Muslims.

Quoting slider (Reply 31):
Go read the quran and the hadiths....

The Coran never tells us to bother with stupid things like a Lego game, but to worry about such things as human massacres based on religion, or bias and people full of hate.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3810 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 31):
Go read the quran and the hadiths....
Quote:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.

Where do you suppose these quotes are from? The last one is particularly interesting.

It's not the Quran which "compels them to act this way". It's individuals, making individual choices. Some people are thugs and have a need to justify their impotent rage by using religion. I would say it's more cultural than religious, and I've seen it the world over with many different religions.

In this case though, all anybody did was raise a complaint. They have a right to do that, even if you (and I) think their claim is ludicrous. That's what people do in all civilized countries.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 31):
Go read the quran and the hadiths....

I have read Q'uran and I defy you to quote to me the relevant passages.


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1915 posts, RR: 32
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 31):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
No, the prophet does not demand that they behave this way.

Go read the quran and the hadiths....

Jeez, go read the BIBLE. The old testament has just as many of the same. People interpret it and spin it.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 35):
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.

Where do you suppose these quotes are from? The last one is particularly interesting.

Indeed, it continues:

Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God,.

And it's Deuteronomy 13

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
I've never known you to pass up an opportunity to voice your hate for Muslims, but try reading the whole thread before commenting:

I do not understand what triggers some people to become totally obsessive about their hatred of Islam. It reminds me of how much the human mind rearranges data to fit its established viewpoint rather than vice versa. It should be possible to criticize branches or aspects of a religion or certain of its adherents without going to extremes or making incredible over-generalizations of the type that appear on here most often about Muslims, but also about Catholics, Jews, Mormons, and others.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 18):
Get back to me when the Jews will complain about something as trivial as this....

Oh, please. We wrote the textbook on this stuff. Don't like the West Bank occupation? Anti-Semitic! Don't like Netanyahu? Anti-Semitic! Don't like any other specific policy or law in Israel? Anti-Semitic!

That said, anyone who wasted time being offended by this Lego Jabba needs to get a life. They are doing no favors for themselves or their cause.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5911 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
And piss on Lego for capitulating.

Except Lego has done no such thing? They've explained the rationale behind it to the Austrian group, but the product stays on the market until 2014, when it's withdrawn as part of the natural product cycle.


User currently offlineSmittyone From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 1286 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Islam or not, I guess I could see where Turks might get upset if their culture was obliquely represented as that of the Hutts.

Of course a more accurate representation would have a Walmart instead of a mosque-like building and a paper bag with an M on it instead of a hookah.



We live in an age surrounded by complex machines but the basic knowledge of the average punter is minimal. -GDB
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8741 posts, RR: 28
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 39):
Turks might get upset if their culture was obliquely represented as that of the Hutts.

You come close. The present, nationalistic Turkish government is instrumentalising the Turkish expats in Europe and use them for all kinds of interference in domestic affairs of their new home countries. I doubt that the Turkish community in Austria would have kicked off this stupid non-issue without the help of DITIB or whichever Turkish institution is behind it.

We experience such interventions in domestic affairs almost on a daily basis. Own incompetence, own fault is never the cause of evil things against Turkey or its still or former citizens. It is always the bad host country, or evil corporations like Lego. If I were of Turkish decent, I would kindly ask my government to stop such interferences. It certainly does not make life easier for those expats who want to make a living in Europe by minding just their own business.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 26
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

I don't think it has anything to do with their religion. These people are just very uneducated, and therefore think its provocative. Almost exactly to what is going on here in Sweden with muslims (of course not all of them).

I do not think a well educated muslim would think it's provocative. It all comes down to education.

I'm sorry for Lego.



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
I've never known you to pass up an opportunity to voice your hate for Muslims, but try reading the whole thread before commenting:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 34):
It seems you know Muslims more than i do, then you tell me, till i read about this in here i never read or heard anything about this subject, but as usual you never miss a chance to show how much you hate Islam and Muslims.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I have read Q'uran and I defy you to quote to me the relevant passages.

Ahhh, yes, the cyberlynching commences. Every time Islam comes up. I love it. Once again, I'm branded the hater, yet there's centuries of history supporting my assertions here. On NUMEROUS occasions, I've depantsed SOBHI on his own dogma that he himself doesn't fully understand. I've documented quotes, I've explained--ad nauseam--the notion of abrogation and how the quran was written and the formulation of their sacred texts. And, because some of you continue to twist my words, I'll re-explain my stance on islam: I believe there are peaceful practitioners of it, but it is not by its essence, peaceful. Nor is it a religion. It's a way of life--islam surrounds all facets of life: social, familial, political, and, yes, religious. We continue to look through a faulty Western lens at it.

So once again, I ask you: why the hulabaloo about a Lego set? Return of the Jedi came out in 1983. The imagery and design of Jabba's palace actually originated from a Ralph McQuarrie matte painting on his own and Lucas implemented it. That's thirty freaking years ago. Where was the outrage then? Why doesn't the rest of the world simply tell these malcontent lunatics to STFU and go away?

It's high time the world get keen to this or else we're toast. Islam uses deception by trade to get what they want. The irony is that they needn't even deceive--they can merely play the victim card, decry blasphemy against their prophet (nevermind the continued blasphemy against Christianity), and then either make threats or carry them out.

It's been happening since 632AD. Islam was born of the sword, and lives by the sword. Throughout it's entire damn history. And you needn't look any further than the Hagia Sophia to see that.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
It's high time the world get keen to this or else we're toast. Islam uses deception by trade to get what they want. The irony is that they needn't even deceive--they can merely play the victim card, decry blasphemy against their prophet (nevermind the continued blasphemy against Christianity), and then either make threats or carry them out.

What gets me is your blindness to your own hypocrisy. Over all the threads on the topic of Islam, people have continuously posted Biblical verses that are no less violent and bloody than what you will find in the Quran, but you blatantly ignore them. I don't think I'll ever understand why Americans (and many Western Europeans) have this fearful loathing of Muslims, but all I know is it's getting pretty petty, and I say that as someone who is neither Muslim nor Christian.

Furthermore, my comment was completely valid. You decided to deride Lego and blame Muslims while it had already been well established that this story is false. But of course you wouldn't dare re-direct your blame at the sensationalist media that originally misreported this story, because that would give you less room to voice your disdain for a religion.

Bring something legitimate to the discussion that isn't the typical blind hate that has become expected of you, and maybe we'll take your opinion seriously.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 41):
I don't think it has anything to do with their religion. These people are just very uneducated, and therefore think its provocative. Almost exactly to what is going on here in Sweden with muslims (of course not all of them).

I do not think a well educated muslim would think it's provocative. It all comes down to education.

I'm sorry for Lego.

Sounds reasonable.



Flying refined.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 26):
Sorry, I did a search for minaret to see what it was, then looked at the images associated with minaret and none of those images even come close to looking like Jabba the Hutt's lego palace. I see no resemblance at all.

there are all types of mosques a hut with a matching tower will look like a mosque to muslims, even if its not, the toy concept even if not inspired by a mosque looks like one to me and most muslims.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 25):

The traditional mosque design have minaret, just because some don't does not mean anything.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
What gets me is your blindness to your own hypocrisy. Over all the threads on the topic of Islam, people have continuously posted Biblical verses that are no less violent and bloody than what you will find in the Quran, but you blatantly ignore them. I don't think I'll ever understand why Americans (and many Western Europeans) have this fearful loathing of Muslims, but all I know is it's getting pretty petty, and I say that as someone who is neither Muslim nor Christian.

Let's be PERFECTLY CLEAR here. I'm not hypocritical at all about it. You are wrong, amigo. I acknowledge Old Testament Biblical items, always have. There's no denying it--they're there in print. But what YOU don't understand is how the Quran was written. And beyond that, you have to have a better understanding of even VERY basic tenets of Christianity. Moreover, I've also gone on record repeatedly here in harsh criticism of organized religion in general and of Catholicism specifically. I think the rules of MAN under the name of religion (not God's way) have led to a great deal of bloodshed and misery on this planet.

But let's start with Christianity. When Jesus came, he expressly stated he was the New Covenant. He overrode those ideas of the "Old Testament vengeful God" if you will. No Christian scholar denies this and, frankly, I don't know of any Christians personally who give more credence to that vs the Gospels. There are many lessons in the Old Testament of value, but one has to have that basic understanding that it's Jesus as the Son of God who came to set us free--and the principles of his crucifixion, death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins. He went out on top.

Similarly, Islam has dynamic like that. It’s called abrogation. The concept stipulates that later verses abrogate, or cancel/replace, earlier ones whose instructions they may contradict. Therefore, the verbiage later in Medina from Muhammad overrule the Meccan verses. Ie: the violent bloodthirsty Muhammad is the LATER one not the peaceful former one. This is an issue of confirmed historical fact, just as we know there was a real person named Jesus. The quran even says so: “2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?”

Where things REALLY get confusing is that the Quran was not compiled in chronological order (like the Bible generally is, at least insofar as Old vs New Testaments, and many of the books therein). And truly, even the most ardent Islamic scholars acknowledge that the holy texts of Islam are a sheer mess in their original form. The Quran was compiled in longest to shortest verses, without regard to context, content or consistency (I can’t recall offhand the name of the Caliph who did this). When they are examined, as many scholars have, they begin to tie back to Muhammad chronologically. It is these later verses, ie The Verse of the Sword, among others, that are nothing but an express call to kill infidels and engage in violence against anyone who denies their prophet.

The hadiths were collated in a similar manner, but at least a century after Muhammad’s death. Even noted Islamic scholars have battled with authenticity and such of these are they are supposedly firsthand accounts by those who were with Muhammad. As a means of comparison, we have in the Bible letters from Paul to the Corinthians (among many others) that spread the word of Jesus after his death. But in Islam, it's not that clear. There is a very difficult challenge in even confirming if person X knew Muhammad, or if what person Y saw was corroborated by person Z, and so on.

Nevertheless, in all of islam, the problem is that Muhammad is hailed as the archetype for behavior and morality—infallible manifestation of Allah. Therefore, there is no evolving morality and thus, as I’ve said maybe a hundred times if I’ve said it once on this forum, there can be no reformation of Islam as there was in Christianity. They've backed themsevles into a corner, frankly, and what it results in is a very selective picking and choosing of what people want to follow. While there are doctrinal sects of Christianity and different denominations, they revolve more around theological interpretation. In Islam, those same sect differences revolve around the selective taking of this, excluding that, and are more dogmatically different in how varying Islamic silos sprung up (ie: take the radical wacko Wahhabists vs some others...)

So where Jesus came to love and set people free, Muhammad came to kill and enslave. Or worse. This is history. These are facts. SOBHI admitted his own ignorance of this numerous times in this forum and slinked away when challenged. Meanwhile, I’m branded a “hater” (whatever that means) because I’m daring to take an unpopular and politically incorrect stance. None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
You decided to deride Lego and blame Muslims while it had already been well established that this story is false.

Lego backtracked....it was good political cover. Very astutely done, I might add to go for a compomise position. I can still decide to deride them for taking ANY compromise position. What they should have said was that there was no intent to offend, we pay a sh*tzillion dollars for Star Wars licensing and we will continue any product line we choose. Star Wars is a cash cow for them. Lego itself is a freaking cash cow. They had the position of strength and they took a milquetoast way out to save face. Politically savvy but pretty weak, IMO.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 44):
there are all types of mosques a hut with a matching tower will look like a mosque to muslims, even if its not, the toy concept even if not inspired by a mosque looks like one to me and most muslims.

So what if it does?

Your right to be offended does not constitute anyone else's right to not make such a toy.


User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3441 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
So once again, I ask you: why the hulabaloo about a Lego set?

And once again I ask you- is it so bad that somebody complained about something which offended them (in a peaceful way), then the offending manufacturer said they had listened to the complaint but weren't going to do anything about it?

Has that never happened with a Christian? Have Christians never complained about anything they saw on TV which makes fun of Jesus, for example, that you thought "they're being a bit oversensitive there"? Have Jews never complained about anything that alludes to the Holocaust where you've thought "maybe you should just let it go"? People complain about things all the time.

When people are burning Lego effigies in the streets over this, then you might have a point.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
Ahhh, yes, the cyberlynching commences.

The victim card- nicely played!



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 46):

I''m not offended, scroll up and read my earlier posts, just saying it looks like a mosque more than anything else.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 45):

A very nice history lesson, but it doesn't contradict my biggest gripe which I admit I have not made clear (and was in the process of editing when you replied). Apart from the fact that many, many people do use the New Testament to enforce their repressive beliefs, your comments are completely sweeping. Why is it that when Muslims do something wrong, it is the fault of Islam as a whole, and not the break-off sect itself? Again, when threads like this pop up, you're quick to voice your opinions on the entire religion, when I think it is plainly clear that the problem is in the interpretation. It can easily be equated to blaming Christianity for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

The fact is that no religion is perfect. I personally have no time for religion. But I don't see how you can fault Islam anymore than any other organized religion. All of them have been used for hateful purposes, with some followers being crazier than others. At the end of the day, the only thing that is empirically wrong are your statements that (intentionally or otherwise) ignore the fact that the fundamentalists, like the Muslims bitching about LEGO toys, are representative of the entire religion. The opposite is true. We have Muslim groups where I live that devote themselves to promoting the loving side of the religion which you mention in your post.

We could technically have this exact discussion about any religion. Some are just more popular than others. Again, I don't have much time for any religion, but I do have time to call out hypocrisy and inaccuracies when I see it. Either way, I'm going to drop the topic because it's bordering on turning into a flamefest which I don't think either of us (or the Mods!) want.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
This is an issue of confirmed historical fact, just as we know there was a real person named Jesus.

There was probably a guy named Jesus.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
What they should have said was that there was no intent to offend

I consider that statement to be over-apologetic. I think they handled it properly, especially the following comments:

"Jabba´s palace does not reflect any non-fictional buildings, people, or the mentioned mosque."

"The LEGO Group regrets that the product has caused the members of the Turkish cultural community to interprete it wrongly, but point out that the design of the product only refers to the fictional content of the Star WarsTM saga."


They clearly say that that the group that complained is wrong...and yes, I do believe that they have predetermined product life cycles for all their products and that the 2014 date was not influenced by this vocal group of confused Muslims.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1169 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
I think the rules of MAN under the name of religion

Off topic- is it bad that I read that as "I think the rules of Manchester under the name of religion"?

I've been here too long.....



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3241 posts, RR: 17
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3357 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
SOBHI admitted his own ignorance of this numerous times in this forum and slinked away when challenged.

Make up your mind, did i admit my ignorance or slinked away (whatever that means)?
The problem is your questions have words i do not understand, you use words i never heard before, knowing that whatever response i will give you will still spit your hatred in here, so why bother.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
Ahhh, yes, the cyberlynching commences.

Shame you could not add anti semitism in here, but lets wait and see.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
Where things REALLY get confusing is that the Quran was not compiled in chronological order (like the Bible generally is, at least insofar as Old vs New Testaments, and many of the books therein). And truly, even the most ardent Islamic scholars acknowledge that the holy texts of Islam are a sheer mess in their original form. The Quran was compiled in longest to shortest verses, without regard to context, content or consistency (I can’t recall offhand the name of the Caliph who did this). When they are examined, as many scholars have, they begin to tie back to Muhammad chronologically. It is these later verses, ie The Verse of the Sword, among others, that are nothing but an express call to kill infidels and engage in violence against anyone who denies their prophet.

WRONG, THE Coran starts with ALFatiha has 7 verses, followed by Albakara 286 verses, a little further AlMaeda 120 followed by AlAnaam 165 followed by AlAaraf 206 verses.
If you have never read the Coran, it is translated to English on the web, maybe you can spend some time reading it.

There is no Surat of the Sword in the Coran.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
Critics also claimed that the palace had an uncanny resemblance to Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia mosque.......

It may have a superficial resemblance to the main structure, based on the dome shape. What I find bizarre is that any resemblance should give rise to offense among Turks, given that the Hagia Sophia hasn't been a mosque for quite some time. If she had claimed it was based on the Sultanahmet (Blue Mosque) it may have had more substance. Melissa Gunes must surely know that the Ayasofya was secularised in 1931 and became a museum in 1935. I hate to imagine what she would do if she actually visited the place. There were many icons and mosaics depicting Jesus, Mary and other saints had been uncovered when I was there last. That would be a no-no in Islam and far more serious than a childrens toy. Perhaps Ms Gunes is trying to make a name for herself?

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
. No Christian scholar denies this

Really? If that is the case why are the books of the Old Testament still included in the bibles used by many Christian denominations? And straight from the mouth of Jesus (as reported by Matthew) "I have not come to change the law". Which law was he talking of? He wasn't talking about changing laws passed in Rome but the law of Moses and the prophets. Indeed, many of the ideas of Jesus can be found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
This is history. These are facts.

These are opinions. The bible is not written consecutively and what we have presented to us today is a collection of works that have been the subject of intense debate at one time or another as to whether or not they should be included. Read some of the books of the bible to see various prophesies being made only for a reference in a previous book we find the predicted event didn't happen.

What is interesting is that your "facts" regarding Jesus are not supported by independent cotemporaneous observers. There are no records presented by any of the priests who allegedly wanted Jesus killed. There are neither records from Pilate and his staff, nor from Herod Antipas. The stories that we are told about the life and sayings of Jesus all come from his post-death supporters but not from people who knew him personally or met him. Later Roman writers did comment on Christian sects but none claimed to have met Jesus, basing their comments on letters they received from others. The Qur'an does recognise Jesus as a prophet but regards it as blasphemy to call Jesus the son of god or a one of the personifications of God other than in the sense that all men are the sons of God.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 51):
There is no Surat of the Sword in the Coran.

I think he is referring to the Surat at-Tawbah (The Repentance). Verse 5 of this Surat is also known as Ayat al-sayf, Ayah of the Sword or The Sword Verse, but many who want to discredit Islam choose to ignore the historical context and the limitations imposed, including forgiving those who repent. Equally, the context is ignored by those who would use the Qur'an to further terrorist attacks. Reading this Surat it almost appears that it follows from an unfinished prior revelation as it is the only one that does not start with the Bismillah.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3243 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
Let's be PERFECTLY CLEAR here. I'm not hypocritical at all about it.

You are merely ignorant, ill-informed, and foolish.

When you worked for CO, your attitude was, perhaps, tolerated. Now, you work for UA, which flies to KWI, BAH, DXB, etc.

Perhaps it is time for you to be less bigoted and more informed. Just a suggestion.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 54, posted (1 year 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting cws818 (Reply 53):
You are merely ignorant, ill-informed, and foolish.

Prove me wrong.


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6661 posts, RR: 35
Reply 55, posted (1 year 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 49):
A very nice history lesson, but it doesn't contradict my biggest gripe which I admit I have not made clear (and was in the process of editing when you replied). Apart from the fact that many, many people do use the New Testament to enforce their repressive beliefs, your comments are completely sweeping. Why is it that when Muslims do something wrong, it is the fault of Islam as a whole, and not the break-off sect itself?

Fair point at least from what I think you're trying to say. But the whole point is that pure islam--as driven and dictated by their prophet himself--does NOT allow deviation from total adherence to his words as given carte blanche from allah.

The New Testament affirms much in Christianity and is very chronological in a literary historical standpoint. Islamic texts are NOT that way (as SOBHI's below post indicates his own ignorance on the subject) and that structural confusion is glossed over by the West.

It also is why, as I've said on numerous occasions, Islam cannot have a true reformation. There's not going to be a Vatican II conference, there's not going to be an equivalent of Martin Luther nailing docs on the door of a church calling for reformation. So even among the sects in islam, they consider themselves PURE (ie: more radical) in how they interpret things. I've asked Muslims this time and time again and have never had a scholarly or sincere answer, because it exposes islam as something they don't want it to be. They've painted themselves in a corner, essentially.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 51):
WRONG, THE Coran starts with ALFatiha has 7 verses, followed by Albakara 286 verses, a little further AlMaeda 120 followed by AlAnaam 165 followed by AlAaraf 206 verses.
If you have never read the Coran, it is translated to English on the web, maybe you can spend some time reading it.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 52):
Reading this Surat it almost appears that it follows from an unfinished prior revelation as it is the only one that does not start with the Bismillah

Again, if you understand the concept of abrogation, it makes sense. And let's not be fatuous here--there are calls for violence. To SOBHI's point above, he's misunderstanding his own texts. I've read it, I've made the point of the evolution of how Islam transmogrified from a peaceful existence to a very violent bloodthirsty way of life after 632AD.

I don't know whether some people choose to be deliberately obtuse or are just so obsessed with political correctness or what. But when we're faced as we are with a certain group that cannot--globally--get along with anyone (and where they do could be driven by their own code of deception, taqqiya and kitman, to advance their own cause), then what are we to think?


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1915 posts, RR: 32
Reply 56, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
But let's start with Christianity. When Jesus came, he expressly stated he was the New Covenant. He overrode those ideas of the "Old Testament vengeful God" if you will. No Christian scholar denies this and, frankly, I don't know of any Christians personally who give more credence to that vs the Gospels.

Of course! It isn't as though any Christians are using the Old Testament to argue against things like gay marriage and the like, and it isn't as though some politicians in the US have tried to have the Ten Commandments ("Thou shall have no other Gods but me"--on pain of death) or other Old Testament stuff put on courthouse lawns or schools or made into official...oh, wait, never mind.

Quoting slider (Reply 55):
Again, if you understand the concept of abrogation, it makes sense. And let's not be fatuous here--there are calls for violence. To SOBHI's point above, he's misunderstanding his own texts. I've read it, I've made the point of the evolution of how Islam transmogrified from a peaceful existence to a very violent bloodthirsty way of life after 632AD.

So what you are saying is that you have the uniquely correct interpretation of the Koran? I guess there's no need for all those scholars and Imams who disagree then. You've got it all solved! Congrats to you! No if only everyone in the world agreed that you are the uniquely correct interpreter. Right now you have Pamela Geller and Geert Wilders and Superfly on board. You'll have to broaden your flock. As of yet, so many Muslims haven't bought your interpretation!



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 57, posted (1 year 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 55):
It also is why, as I've said on numerous occasions, Islam cannot have a true reformation. There's not going to be a Vatican II conference, there's not going to be an equivalent of Martin Luther nailing docs on the door of a church calling for reformation.

We saw how well that worked. The Vatican promised Martin Luther safe passage and then tried to kill him. The Vatican then tried to stamp out the Protestant movement by force and the only reason that Protestantism still exists is because the Vatican failed.

That didn't stop Pope Pius X from declaring ex cathedra that the Catholic Church had the authority to declare that the Roman Catholic faith was the only true religion. The Vatican didn't voluntarily admit that it had turned away from Christ's message and seek reform of its own accord. At least not until Vatican II, and that was not exactly an impressive reform given the behavior we have seen from the Vatican since that time.

Quoting slider (Reply 55):
But when we're faced as we are with a certain group that cannot--globally--get along with anyone

...then what? Genocide? What's your solution?


User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2378 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (1 year 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

My God poeple - don't we have much bigger fish to fry than this???


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 59, posted (1 year 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 55):
And let's not be fatuous here
Quoting slider (Reply 55):
if you understand the concept of abrogation

... then you understand the notion that rulings and interpretations can be made as circumstances change. That there is a difference between that which is indicative and that which is instructive. You will also be aware that there are many conflicting fatwas that are based both on tradition and an objective analysis of (at the time) present needs. Islamic jurisprudence is nowhere as rigid as you would have us believe. This is evidenced by the way that countries that are predominantly Muslim do not all share the same laws and punishments for infractions.

Quoting slider (Reply 55):
I don't know whether some people choose to be deliberately obtuse

... when they ignore passages within the Bible which clearly indicate that in certain circumstances Jesus did support the use of violence - abusing and chasing the money lenders was hardly a simple exercise in philosophical debate - and he even advocated his followers buy weapons. Why buy weapons if there will never be an intent to use them? While a dubious explanation is presented that it was necessary in order to fulfil a prophesy, the more likely reason that Jesus told his followers to lay them down was because he clearly knew that he was out-numbered. He had been expecting to deal with some rabble that could be frightened off by a display of strength, he did not expect the Roman Army to turn up and block any chance of escape. So based on the example of Christ, Christians can, in certain circumstances, justify the use of violence and some do so and a regular basis.

The proponents of a bill to kill homosexuals in Uganda are Christians (its author was a Catholic Priest and now Government Minister) and they use Biblical justifications. Clearly they don't understand the concept of abrogation, as defined by yourself, yet they still regard themselves as Christians.

Yes, there are calls to violence contained within many passages of the Qur'an and in hadith. But, as you continue to plug the notion of abrogation or Naskh, why do you continue to ignore the context? Even your reference to taqiyya and kitmān is unrefined, ignoring both context and the different approaches of Sunni and Shi'a.

Perhaps you need to talk to some "scholars" who don't necessarily confirm your own views. Have a look at the conflicting arguments and debates, both within Christianity and Islam. You will find that the serious scholarship is nowhere near as united in agreement as you think.


User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (1 year 5 hours ago) and read 2607 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 54):
Quoting cws818 (Reply 53):
You are merely ignorant, ill-informed, and foolish.

Prove me wrong.

Where should I start?

And, if I did, would you understand what I said?



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1171 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 5 hours ago) and read 2606 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 58):

My God poeple - don't we have much bigger fish to fry than this???

Reasonable people do. Slider does not. He is bitter, bigoted, and oozing hate. It is not his fault. He, seemingly, cannot help himself.



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 62, posted (1 year 4 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

So I guess a 'Crusades' themed lego is out of the question then...?

  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 3):
Do they ever protest at anything, the only times Ive heard of Bhuddist doing so is against the Bhudda Bar chain, or do you have to jump to defend Jews and castigate Muslims always?

It may be silly for Muslims to have done so, but I'm pointing out how it would have been if Jews were involved.

As an atheist who dislikes all organized religion- we can't expect the rest of the world to cave in to Taliban Stone age burka wearing ideas and what may offend others. I have never seen any other religion complain and get so offended as much. They need to get over it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Had who done what? There wasn't any religious connotation to the Jabba-The-Hut figure.

If anything the Buddhists should complain because Jabba is a big fat guy.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 18):
Get back to me when the Jews will complain about something as trivial as this....

Or when they start rioting and burning Denmark flags due to a comic strip


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

The Taliban are not representing true Islam, majority muslims don't subscribe to their beliefs, they will not get over it because in their minds they're right.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 63):
Had who done what? There wasn't any religious connotation to the Jabba-The-Hut figure.
If anything the Buddhists should complain because Jabba is a big fat guy.

The fatt Bhudda is is not really Bhudda hes some Chinese or Japanese figure AFAIK.


User currently offlineGeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 49):
It can easily be equated to blaming Christianity for the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Let's get one thing very clear here; don't even mention Christianity and the Westboro Baptist Church in the same sentence; the WBC has nothing to do with Christianity, it is NOT a church, and they are sure as hell NOT Baptists !
They're imbeciles, fools, idiots, period.

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 65):
Let's get one thing very clear here; don't even mention Christianity and the Westboro Baptist Church in the same sentence; the WBC has nothing to do with Christianity, it is NOT a church, and they are sure as hell NOT Baptists !

Well by definition they are indeed a church. You may not like their interpretation of the Bible, but they still practice what they believe is Christianity, therefore they worship in what is properly known as a church.

But that has little to do with the point I was making...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2012 times:

Quoting Geezer (Reply 65):
Let's get one thing very clear here; don't even mention Christianity and the Westboro Baptist Church in the same sentence; the WBC has nothing to do with Christianity, it is NOT a church, and they are sure as hell NOT Baptists !
They're imbeciles, fools, idiots, period.

Funny, that's what my Muslim friends say about Al Qaeda.... (obviously replacing Christianity with Islam, etc)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAviRaider From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 174 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 66):

They are a true definition of a cult, plain and simple. They pick and choose parts of the Bible for their own hateful agenda. They are only one family.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 68):

Same as.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 67):
Funny, that's what my Muslim friends say about Al Qaeda.... (obviously replacing Christianity with Islam, etc)


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