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Obama To Take A 5% Pay Cut...  
User currently offlinealberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2921 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...ama-salary-furlough-hagel/2050121/

Really just 5% ? That is actually more insulting than helpful. Kind of reminds me of this Dilbert strip




short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
224 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

The President gives up $20,000 in salary and you're insulted? Sorry, but I think you just want to be insulted because you don't like the guy. Believe it or not, heads-of-state have the right to be paid as well, and I think "President of the United States of America" is a little more stressful than your average CEO. I'm not an Obama supporter, but even I see a lot of goodwill behind this gesture.

If my Prime Minister willingly cut his pay by any amount I would have absolutely no problem with it, let alone get insulted.  



Flying refined.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5201 times:
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Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Really just 5% ? That is actually more insulting than helpful. Kind of reminds me of this Dilbert strip

Helpful? even if he took 100% pay cut- how is that helpful in anyway?

He is showing solidarity - that all that matters really..

Politics? of course?.. insulting? Not even close!

[Edited 2013-04-03 14:46:49]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5181 times:

He should keep his money and do his job properly, ie give the entire public sector a 15% paycut.

Obama is quite possibly the most opportunistic politician i've ever witnessed.


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 643 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 3):
Obama is quite possibly the most opportunistic politician i've ever witnessed.

See I know that's not true, because you're from the UK so you have to know about Ed Milliband.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Politics? of course?.. insulting? Not even close!

  



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Just some political move. I'm not insulted but I am far far from impressed. He is president of the United States. In three years he will make tens of millions of dollars a year on book deals, interviews, and speaking arrangements. He can probably spare so more money but I get his point. Honestly I think it would have been just better if he didnt say a word about his pay.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
The President gives up $20,000 in salary and you're insulted?

He spends that much just flying to single golf outing.


User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 6):
He spends that much just flying to single golf outing.

Either way, the American tax payers are funding it.....


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 5):
He is president of the United States. In three years he will make tens of millions of dollars a year on book deals, interviews, and speaking arrangements

Heck, he's never had a real job in his life and is a millionaire already, just imagine after (if) he leaves office, with all the cult of personality brainwipes out there.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 706 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

oh wow, another Obama thread.
Although winning a decisive victory for a 2nd term. Airliners.net dudes!, Your supposed to lick your wounds to allow healing, but I guess it's gonna be a long time before you can get your tongue off your arm..

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
Heck, he's never had a real job in his life and is a millionaire already, just imagine after (if) he leaves office, with all the cult of personality brainwipes out there.

Not sure what your definition of a 'real job' is, but I think you should go read his career biography but first of all, me thinks you should take a higher road and go and help deal with your country's 16% unemployment rate lol. What are YOU doing about that?


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5049 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 9):
What are YOU doing about that?

More than Obama i should think.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Really just 5% ? That is actually more insulting than helpful.

Bush took how much of a cut?

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 3):
He should keep his money and do his job properly

That would be......?

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 7):
Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 6):He spends that much just flying to single golf outing.
Either way, the American tax payers are funding it.....

It would be so much better for him to be flying off somewhere every two weeks to clear brush?

I also find it hilarious that people are saying he is not creating enough jobs. Excuse me, but, those tax breaks he hates but signed off on anyway were supposed to create jobs. Where are those jobs? Let's try it his way for a while. We all had to suffer through what Bush wanted because he threw a tantrum when he didn't get what he wanted. Obama tries to be a diplomat. You can't be a diplomat in a room full of egotists.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 6):
He spends that much just flying to single golf outing.

Right, 'cause he's totally the only President who does that.  

But for the heck of it, here's a read: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/goodwill

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
Heck, he's never had a real job in his life

Not sure if you're being facetious or elitist...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5023 times:

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 9):
me thinks you should take a higher road and go and help deal with your country's 16% unemployment rate lol. What are YOU doing about that?

"Never ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for yourself" - not JFK.

Simple, if people want to wallow in socialism and live with a gigantic state let them, but don't expect me to pay for it, I will take my skills and hard work to where they might be appreciated and properly rewarded, not frowned upon.

Sorry, forgot: lol



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3376 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4957 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
Believe it or not, heads-of-state have the right to be paid as well, and I think "President of the United States of America" is a little more stressful than your average CEO.

  

Especially when some CEO's can leave with an 8 figure golden parachute for f*cking up royally.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 6):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
The President gives up $20,000 in salary and you're insulted?

He spends that much just flying to single golf outing.

Where were you when his predecessors were doing the exact same thing. A lot of business deals get done on the golf course so why not very important political decisions.

The resaon that this is done is that there are two ways to know the character of the one you are signing a deal with: Get them drunk or take them golfing. I am sure Clinton/Gingrich and Reagan/O'neill did the same thing.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4922 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
Heck, he's never had a real job in his life

Have you?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
and is a millionaire already

Are you?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Simple, if people want to wallow in socialism and live with a gigantic state let them, but don't expect me to pay for it, I will take my skills and hard work to where they might be appreciated and properly rewarded, not frowned upon.

Fantastic! When is your flight? Do you need a ride to the airport?



volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4914 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
he's never had a real job in his life

Senator in Illinois, Senator in Washington, DC, president, editor of Harvard Law Review. Nope. Never worked a day in his life. Just lounged around sipping mai-tais on the beach...



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinecws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1176 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 12):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
Heck, he's never had a real job in his life

Not sure if you're being facetious or elitist...


Flying refined.

Neither, Pyrex is being loud and ignorant. Everyone needs a hobby. Being boorish seems to be his.

[Edited 2013-04-03 22:57:20]


volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4900 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 14):
A lot of business deals get done on the golf course so why not very important political decisions.

Simple - if a company decides to spend money on T&E, they do so using money that shareholders decided to entrust them with, more likely money their clients voluntarily paid them for. If government decides to spend money on T&E, they do so with money that was forcibly taken from people who had no choice in the matter. That is why T&E policies in the "public" sector cannot and are not the same as in the private sector.

Quoting cws818 (Reply 15):

Fantastic! When is your flight? Do you need a ride to the airport?

You've missed that boat several years ago...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
Senator in Illinois, Senator in Washington, DC, president, editor of Harvard Law Review. Nope. Never worked a day in his life

Being a politician is not a job, it is (or should be) a service you do after you have had a successful career at something, not something you do professionally. And exactly how much of his net worth came from being a co-editor on a school newspaper during grad school?

The reality is that he never worked a single day in his life in the private sector: never had to provide a good or service people were willing to pay for more than what it cost to make or provide, never had to manage to a budget, never had to worry about responding to someone or generating a bottom-line. So no, he has never had a real job a day in his life and that is what causes his warped view of the private sector as merely something he can exploit to implement his policies.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1261 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4862 times:

Who cares Pyrex? Obama is the best president in ages. Already the fact that you don't like him proves it.

Setting more taxes to the filthy rich is always a great thing, United States needs more social equality.

[Edited 2013-04-04 03:11:16]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
Being a politician is not a job, it is (or should be) a service you do after you have had a successful career at something, not something you do professionally.

This pretty much summarizes the problem with your argument. Politics is far too important to be handled by people with little interest for what happens as total. It affects individuals and the country too much to be handled by people who do it for single cause or time filler to make retirement more interesting.


User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
Setting more taxes to the filthy rich is always a great thing, United States needs more social equality.

How utterly naive and juvenile. Discouraging the most productive from working is a sure-fire way to diminish the economy.

I really wish some people would try and consider the unintended consequences of their actions before they open their mouths.

Obama is a disaster for America, almost as bad as his predecessor.


User currently offlineiMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6294 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

If he really meant to cut government spending and had any courage he'd cut military spending 30%.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
The President gives up $20,000 in salary and you're insulted?


Sure, he is taking a 5% hit while every other federal employee going on furlough is taking a 20% hit. That's really fair isn't it? He is just so full of himself while he still goes on his golf trips and his family has been of vacation since this all started.


User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1261 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4804 times:

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 25):
Sure, he is taking a 5% hit while every other federal employee going on furlough is taking a 20% hit. That's really fair isn't it? He is just so full of himself while he still goes on his golf trips and his family has been of vacation since this all started.

Hah you think that kinda behavior is something unusual for high ranking politicians? No, it's a norm.

Around here our prime minister earns more than David Cameron, our capitals mayor and vice-mayor and mayor tried to give each other a huge salary raise during these harsh economic times (thankfully that one was blocked)...

The list of these things is endless. If you seriously think that some other president would have cut his salary any more than Obama is doing you are wrong.



"A rational army would run away"
25 cmhsrq : I'll admit, I had hope for Obama, now it's cope. I strongly disliked Bush, and I find that all Obama has done is taken Bush policies and ramped them u
26 pvjin : Really the ultimate fix for a lot of the things would be cutting 30 to 50% from US military, it's after all huge money eater and people there mostly d
27 RomeoBravo : The US needs to make a huge amounts of cuts and military is certainly an area with scope for that. 2% of GDP seems a good figure - not 4%! However, cu
28 DeltaMD90 : Meh, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, but personally, I think it could've been a bit better. What I really want to see is Congress get cut pretty h
29 KiwiRob : The New Zealand PM John Key donates his pay to charity. He's paid 411,000 NZD, which is approx 350,000 USD.
30 AeroWesty : Having read through all of the replies and considered all of the opinions, I'm left with the impression that no matter what Obama did in this situatio
31 RussianJet : Let's face it - he didn't stand a chance of being right whatever he chose to do, did he? He could work for free and you'd probably still be 'insulted
32 zckls04 : Well, it was good practice since most of his money came from the books he authored. Why does being in the private sector matter? Are people in the pu
33 CalebWilliams : RB can't let Reaganomics go, I would ignore it. It just devalues those that do work hard aren't in the upper echelon.
34 rfields5421 : Just one thought/ question How did the other 525 idiots in Congress give up of their salary? And the Cabinet Secretaries? Every single one of them is
35 zckls04 : Tricky one though isn't it. One could argue with a lot of these radical left wingers or right wingers that they are representing their electorate. Ma
36 StarAC17 : At the end of the day all politics is local and the reason that the same people in congress get elected is that they do good for their districts and
37 bhill : Pyrex, you just pissed of ALOT of career soldiers, sailors, aimen, etc...public service....I know MANY of the aforementioned that joined up just out o
38 cmf : Until we get the income gap between high and low full time income to a reasonable proportion, prob around 30 times, this point is void. Completely di
39 Post contains images RussianJet : Also pretty void so long as we have people around who can't afford bread.
40 RomeoBravo : No. Now let's say you put it at a more realistic high figure say 70%. The people who own all the factories might carry on because after all what do t
41 Post contains images EA CO AS : Even when they perform poorly at their job? Are you sure you don't want to be a nightclub comic? Because you're a really, REALLY funny guy!
42 mt99 : Did you have a problem with GWB' salary?
43 Braniff747SP : Regardless of what one thinks about the guy, he is the president of the United States. He should be paid a decent salary and $20,000 doesn't even regi
44 EA CO AS : No, but then again in my opinion he didn't perform poorly. And spare me a response; it'll just give me a headache and be of no use.
45 RomeoBravo : I can't see how one can defend GWB personally. He got us involved in some terrible middle east entanglements and created one of the biggest economic
46 WestJet747 : Yes. The good thing about heads-of-state is that if you don't like the job they're doing, you get to vote them out (or in this case, he has to leave
47 seb146 : Except it has worked every time it was done. Don't let facts get in the way of your argument. W had the feds send out checks to every person in the c
48 mt99 : Its easy - you just ask him who is deserving.
49 Mir : Marginally higher taxes don't discourage people from working. The people who create the really valuable stuff in the world don't do it because they w
50 RomeoBravo : And what about Kennedy/Reagan/Thatcher who cut taxes substantially on the rich? There are far too many variables at play to draw such a conclusion fr
51 Mir : They did not. Mind you, I don't recall the rich 100 years ago having iPads and widescreen TVs either. Very unlikely. Starting up a business overseas
52 zckls04 : Well, perhaps. But why is it that income inequality has grown over the past few decades? Because we're eating more burgers?
53 cmf : I have paid 80% marginal tax and it didn't influence me or any of the people I worked with who were in the same situation. We were all driven by seei
54 Boeing717200 : The gap increases because skill required to design a structure increases while the skill to flip a burger does not. So the guy charged with running a
55 zckls04 : The gap didn't increase for 30 years though. The gap hasn't increased in the same way (or at all) in other countries. If the march of technology were
56 BMI727 : We're skipping a part though, and it's a pretty damn important one. Education, which is where Google and to a lesser extent Facebook got their starts
57 Boeing717200 : Perhaps we're a victim of our own success - too many skilled people and an insufficient number of positions to support them. Maybe the problem is the
58 casinterest : 5 % is quite a lot, and as a whole is more than the budget was cut by the sequester. Would I like to see more ? Sure. I saw my paycheck get hacked by
59 RomeoBravo : Then why do so many people offshore? Why do people go to such lengths to reduce their tax burden? Men have a little threat of leaving due to pregnanc
60 cmf : Where did I say that? Tens of millions, certainly not. That you have to use such extreme examples shows how extreme your opinion is. Care to explain
61 Cadet985 : You know, a lot of you are saying that POTUS isn't a real job. He currently gets $400,000/year (I believe) plus an expense account as POTUS. His worki
62 cmf : I agree with the sentiment of your post but you have some factual errors. The typical CEO doesn't get home not to think about work either. It is ther
63 Boeing717200 : So it's not really about who makes what for you, it's about envy. You know, envy is a terrible thing. It's destroying this country.
64 ATCtower : Giving up 5% isnt whats insulting, its that his inability to do his job and balance our country's budget requiring other government agencies to take
65 Cadet985 : What I was getting at is that if you own a business, be it a store or a Fortune 500 company, you can go home at 5:00 or whenever, and unless there's
66 RomeoBravo : Honestly, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not attempting to justify anything. I'm just stating a reason why women often get paid less. What
67 Boeing717200 : CEOs are always thinking about their business and thanks to this new fangled thing called a smart phone, they have an eternal tether. So don't kid yo
68 Post contains images Superfly : I'll be more impressed if him & Michelle didn't take anymore vacations until Labor Day weekend. The 5% pay cut is all for show. Every single dolla
69 Post contains images something : ..while you're spending your time posting anonymous, uninformed comments on some pointless online forum. I can see where your anger is coming from
70 BMI727 : It is free. Their employers are free to pay them highly, and you are free to not pay them at all.
71 pvjin : What's the problem with that anyway? It doesn't matter what he has or hasn't done before, his job is to do his best to make United States a better co
72 BMI727 : More civilized as in losing monetary sovereignty, having higher tax rates, and drowning in debt? Nothing says civilization like freezing people's ban
73 pvjin : Heh drowning debt, that's not any different from the US, although you have somehow managed to waste all that huge amount of money even without all th
74 RomeoBravo : That's more of an Eastern European thing. And to some extent Italy and Spain. Extremely rare in the UK and North/West Europe. The Russian World Cup w
75 BMI727 : Except all the civilized Europeans decided to give away their monetary sovereignty so they can't really do anything about it. And add in the massivel
76 Post contains images cmf : To me it is about fair compensation. About not underpaying most workers based on them having no real options and giving it to a few who scratch each
77 BMI727 : That's exactly what the free market is. Something is worth what you can get someone else to pay, but you don't need to find many people willing to pa
78 RomeoBravo : But the poor are getting richer in absolutely terms, and that is all that matters, anything else is just jealousy. If they want to get even richer th
79 pvjin : The situation in Cyprus and other countries with economical crisis has been caused by corruption and incompetence in their governments, not by social
80 Boeing717200 : There's no such thing as injustice when it comes to compensation in a free market. You earn what you're worth and you get paid what you're worth. It'
81 pvjin : Maybe in some fantasy, in reality not. There are huge amount of incompetent people working in leadership of many private companies, earning way more
82 Post contains links cmf : The difference between theory and reality. This isn't the free market your theories are based on. Nor will there ever be a free market. You live in u
83 Boeing717200 : How would I have an envy problem. I'm not the one complaining about what someone else is making or perpetuating the myth of "economic injustice". Tha
84 RomeoBravo : I already have. Since then you have continually tried to change the argument. Just because i won't work for free does not mean i don't like my job. I
85 BMI727 : The social programs are a big part of it and a big part of why these situations are so difficult for countries to fix. No, the best system is as clos
86 Mir : Which works out well, since those are the sort of companies that we really want to retain - companies that not only employ their own people, but who,
87 BMI727 : That's fine by me as long as the educated workers doing the innovating don't have their success attenuated by having to drag along everyone else as w
88 cmf : I have not seen where yo have provided anything but your own statement but great, then you can just tell me the number of the post. You did also post
89 BMI727 : During that time there were actual abuses. If you got the flu and couldn't work for a day, you got fired. I'm not saying that regulations and work ru
90 cmf : Yet you constantly insist we accept your valuation. Apart from that it is. Sadly your theories are. Once you get to see the real world you will learn
91 RomeoBravo : 50 Well, i don't mind it, i wouldn't do it for free. Hmm... First of all this isn't about anyone else, this is about me. Secondly, and i've already c
92 BMI727 : Not at all. Depending on who it is and what they do I might find a given price to be outrageous as well. There are not as many advocating an "everybo
93 RomeoBravo : The only welfare that could conceivably create higher societal productivity would be a basic level of state-funded education for children. Beyond that
94 cmf : Nothing but your statements there. Show the data. OK, I worded it poorly, grant you that. Though the meaning was clear. It is about creating things t
95 RomeoBravo : The legal system has nothing to do with welfare, and you don't need "welfare" to provide the others. LOL indeed. This is nothing to do with those peo
96 BMI727 : You never said they couldn't be, although you did say that nobody should make $10 million per year. People can become rich, as long as they give you
97 cmf : If only. Poor welfare system push problems to the legal system. Because money grows on trees... Reality is that we need active governments to have a
98 RomeoBravo : No, in fact quite the opposite is the case, government causes many problems by trying to play an active role in the economy, including the current pr
99 cmf : I'm not walking around with blinds like you. Still waiting for you to provide support for your statement. Post 50 certainly didn't contain anything.
100 BMI727 : Not to you anyway, which makes it quite convenient that nobody is forcing you to pay someone $10 million to do a job you don't believe deserves it. E
101 cmf : You must have lost it. When has a minimum wage job been filled with a livable salary, much less 10 MUSD??? Taking your description of the American Co
102 seb146 : Some households make far too much to receive any kind if assistance. But, they still don't make enough to survive. All because the right-wing decided
103 CalebWilliams : CMF, conservatives will never admit that anyone on welfare should actually be so. I would just ignore it.
104 BMI727 : You get the freedom to not pay anyone $10 million per year because you don't believe there is any job that is worth it. Fine, that's your choice and
105 CalebWilliams : And maybe perhaps, by paying taxing.
106 RomeoBravo : Apart from the disabled people really don't need benefits. Benefits just distort human behaviour including what they are willing to work for or study
107 cmf : They want us to let it go. That way they can continue their unsavory act of stealing money. They are free to pay anything they want above livable wag
108 zckls04 : SOME human's (sic) have been able to survive for thousands of years. Others died of hunger, or exposure, or disease. If you accept the concept of a s
109 RomeoBravo : We've had such great advances in technology since that time though it is pretty safe to say that almost every able bodied person in the west could su
110 Post contains images BMI727 : People collecting welfare are almost certainly in the half of the country that pays basically no federal taxes. Why? There is not a single reason why
111 zckls04 : What technology is that? What technology provides a house to somebody who doesn't earn enough to rent one? What technology provides somebody food who
112 pvjin : Not really, the most unfortunate ones just died from hunger, diseases, cold etc. How? If you have no house, no job, don't happen to live in some trop
113 zckls04 : If you accept it has to be done, there's no other way.
114 ER757 : Needs congress to act first and put legislation on his desk to sign Have you paid any attention to that conglomeration of fools in the past 8 to 12 y
115 RomeoBravo : In a genuinely free market, why would you not have a job?
116 zckls04 : Why would you? Or more specifically why would a free market lead to full employment?
117 RomeoBravo : No benefits - more incentive to work Low/no taxes - cheaper to hire people Low/no regulations - easier to hire people No minimum wage - low paying jo
118 cmf : Again, because they are taking unfair advantage of someones misfortune. The they shouldn't exist. When the only reason you can survive is by stepping
119 zckls04 : Only of use if the jobs are there, spread perfectly throughout the country based on population- a free market does not achieve this. Why would a comp
120 pvjin : Somalia fits pretty much all of those, yet it has unemployment rate of 54%. Why is that? Also somebody will be always ready to do that job cheaper ab
121 zckls04 : It's too dangerous for anybody to be able to do anything there. That has nothing to do with a free market or lack of it. Practically no countries hav
122 BMI727 : Which is why the state should fund a quality education system. Not welfare, or higher minimum wages, or punitive taxes on the wealthy. Education. The
123 RomeoBravo : Obviously, if people needed to work or have no money (from benefits) and there were no restrictions on selling their labour it would be almost impossi
124 Post contains images zckls04 : Exactly, hence the reason I said "if". I'm aware of your views on this Can you expand this? I must be misreading because it makes no sense to me.
125 RomeoBravo : Have amended slightly. If you had to work because you weren't getting benefits. And there were no restrictions on what you could earn or the hours yo
126 zckls04 : And can you think of a time in history when that might have been the case? What were the standards of living like for people who had those jobs?
127 RomeoBravo : Why would historical standards of living apply to now?[Edited 2013-04-09 14:49:44]
128 zckls04 : Why wouldn't they? What would arrest the decline of working standards and pay? What would prevent wages from dropping below what is necessary to main
129 RomeoBravo : Market forces, just like with any other job.
130 zckls04 : How? Be more specific. Would people choose starvation over near-starvation? Homelessness over living in slums? Again, history shows not. I'm not sayi
131 cmf : Private charities are incredibly inefficient. More often than not they are tax deductible parties and a place to ship the owners useless relatives. N
132 RomeoBravo : Ask yourself why you do not work for pittance in appalling working conditions (assuming this is the case) and you will have your answer. I ignored mo
133 zckls04 : Answer- I don't have to. But if I had the choice between nearly starving and actually starving, you can be damn sure I'd pick nearly starving. Do you
134 RomeoBravo : I've already told you the answer, market forces. You asked me to expand and i told you to consider why your wages and working conditions aren't being
135 Post contains images zckls04 : Thanks for the tip Just saying the words "free market forces" isn't enough. You have to understand how those forces actually work, how they affect pe
136 RomeoBravo : I have already told you the answer. And i've already offered you a practical example in your own life.
137 zckls04 : OK- I can see you're going to obfuscate to avoid elaborating. What about the other parts of post 119 which you labeled "fallacies"? Do you have an an
138 RomeoBravo : I have elaborated. If you went to work and your employer said, "i'm halving your salary". You'd say, ok i'm quitting and going to work for someone who
139 Post contains images zckls04 : That's because I do a high-skilled job with very few qualified candidates among many jobs. Low skilled jobs are never very scarce, especially in this
140 RomeoBravo : Ok let's just clarifying what you're asking here. Will wages be constantly pushed down? No because market forces are keeping them up and over time pu
141 zckls04 : Except as shown above, that only happens when jobs are more plentiful than applicants. Otherwise those forces will do the exact opposite. It's possib
142 seb146 : When Target or Wal-Mart hires thousands for Christmas, then fires them in March, that is the government firing them? When two companies merge and red
143 Post contains images BMI727 : Even the healthiest economies will have some level of unemployment. In the case of work standards, some regulations pertaining to safety, sick leave,
144 cmf : Rather you can't so you pretend they are not there. Isn't it amazing that the best he can do is claim he has answered it yet can't even provide links
145 BMI727 : I've never said otherwise. But I'll never advocate Robin Hood government. Slavery isn't something you can do partially, and I don't advocate it. Usin
146 zckls04 : And I have total respect for your argument. You are consistent, and understand the consequences of your views. I find them personally abhorrent, but
147 ATCtower : Oh, BS! He has threatened and even enacted legislation via executive power/order that DOES NOT require their approval. Hell, look at Bush's declarati
148 seb146 : What happens when people are told they need a Master's in X. So, 100,000 people get a Master's degree in X. There are 5 positions open requiring a Ma
149 BMI727 : It's worth pointing out that common parlance is "minimum wage job" not "minimum wage career." You have to pay attention to who's doing the telling. L
150 RomeoBravo : I really hope you can see now why i don't want to go through post 119. You are just simply not listening to what i am saying and it's been nearly 10
151 cmf : No, what you advocate is reverse Robin Hood. Take from the poor and give to the rich. What you advocate is pretty damn close to serfdom which is a fo
152 RomeoBravo : This is why i have stopped humouring you. You can argue that it's unfortunate that some people can't make this abstract thing called a "living wage".
153 cmf : We should just accept the definitions you make up... That you can't even defend.
154 seb146 : Tax loop holes, corporate welfare, offshoring their profits. Not giving them a thing. All the while, they are telling us if they just get more money,
155 RomeoBravo : That's really just an assumption that there are significant consequences. The problem when the government intervenes with an economy is that the bene
156 Post contains images BMI727 : The poor are not having wealth taken from them by any underhanded means. It's a politically attractive notion for many people, but it just doesn't re
157 zckls04 : 10 posts where you repeat the same thing over and over without reading my posts. Ten posts where you stare blankly at a page and just write "market f
158 Post contains images RomeoBravo : This is completely wrong and it's clear that we need to go right back to lesson 1. Below is a supply and demand chart. The supply line represent the
159 Post contains links zckls04 : All this: Is just an explanation of a supply and demand curve; very nice but it's really axiomatic to everything we've both been arguing about in prev
160 RomeoBravo : It still wouldn't tell you anything of use if you did know that, because there are two factors that determine the equilibrium price. No, if there is
161 zckls04 : Which just further supports the fact that the graph tells you nothing about what value the equilibrium point will be at, thus is not very useful. Yes
162 Post contains images RomeoBravo : I was never trying to determine values by showing the graph, i explicitly specified this (below), i was trying to point out to you that "the lowest y
163 zckls04 : Since you're insistently focused on this despite it being very obvious what I meant, I will clarify again. Comparing two otherwise equal situations A
164 seb146 : The government giving money to manufacturers and chemical companies for jets that can't fly and chemicals and "food" that are making people sick. Amo
165 BMI727 : The government needs to buy things. That's not welfare. That doesn't make any sense. It's ludicrous that they need to ask us for permission to keep t
166 RomeoBravo : I get what you mean i'm just pointing out that we're not talking about a change in the population. It's based upon the collective valuations of emplo
167 seb146 : Difference is: We will give you $10billion vs. We will give you $10million to build us a jet that does not fly. It is the same logic that right-winge
168 BMI727 : Just because the government says something doesn't make it true. When they ask for a plane to do a bunch of different things and do it cheaply, getti
169 Post contains links something : There’s an economic concept known as a positional good in which an object is only valued by the possessor because it’s not possessed by others. T
170 BMI727 : That's not what it is, I just like fast cars. If everyone drove a Lamborghini, the world would be a nicer place. Cool with me. I don't get the point
171 zckls04 : Technology has resulted in some improvements to things like sanitation, it's true. But it's also resulted in a vast reduction in the number of availa
172 seb146 : Like "deficits don't matter"? Oh, wait... they do when a Democrat is in the White House. Right wing government telling us there is no health care cri
173 zckls04 : I'm going to have to disagree there. Doing the shopping would be a nightmare- have you tried driving one?
174 BMI727 : No, but they're all wheel drive and now that they are partially designed by Germans, catch on fire less often than they used to. And as far as shoppi
175 zckls04 : Don't be fooled- they haven't turned into all-rounders. It would still require a 27 point turn to get out of most parking spaces. I've only driven th
176 BMI727 : If Lambos are too hardcore for you there's always Audis and (some) Porsches. I still think the world would be a better place if everyone drove cool c
177 zckls04 : I like variety. One of the best driving experiences I've had was in a Hindustan Ambassador.
178 cmf : Don't forget the most common reason for bankruptcy is paying medical bills not covered by insurance companies.
179 RomeoBravo : No, it hasn't. Relative poverty maybe, which is a completely irrelevant figure. There is no absolute poverty in Hong Kong yet it is widespread in the
180 zckls04 : Yes there is. It's of course less than the relative poverty figure, as it is in all countries, but it most certainly exists- I have seen it. One reas
181 RomeoBravo : Oh good, all current data can be disregarded now that we have your anecdotes. The same reason almost every civilised country has more or less bankrup
182 zckls04 : If the data says that the absolute poverty rate is zero percent, then yes, it can, since it is clearly incorrect. Have you ever been to Hong Kong? No
183 PC12Fan : I'm not a huge Obama fan either, but some just love making a negative out of a positive. "some people just want to watch the world burn"
184 seb146 : Those would be the ones with the money who were gambling with our money. Stocks and real estate still tanked. Let me explain, step by step, one point
185 BMI727 : And what do you think many hedge and mutual funds invest in? There's nothing stopping you from short selling and making a killing when the market dro
186 cws818 : Do you have any first hand knowledge that you would care to share, or are you just braying in ignorance?[Edited 2013-04-11 23:29:33]
187 RomeoBravo : They probably do well very for themselves. You can make a lot of money in a rich major city by begging, provided you can stomach the indignity. The f
188 Boeing717200 : First of all, the stock market is gambling. Second, I can only assume that when you say people were gambling you are referring to the thousands who w
189 seb146 : What? I don't even get how that has to do with anything. "Liberals" are not the ones against education. Remember the uproar over Obama going to an Iv
190 RomeoBravo : You can place almost the entirety of it on Alan Greenspan. Everyone else, the rich and the poor, were just acting in their own self interests.
191 Post contains links Akiestar : Somehow, I highly doubt that. Though this is not begging, it still shows how appalling the conditions are in which Hong Kong's most destitute live in
192 zckls04 : Scrabbling for pennies in the gutter- living the dream huh? Again, have you been to Hong Kong? Have you seen how many there are? How much each one ma
193 RomeoBravo : Again, i'm kinda more interesting in figures, not the anecdotes. No, why would i be saying that? I'm saying without central planning of the interest
194 BMI727 : It has everything to do with it. Sixty years ago the Korean peninsula was the location of a shooting war, China was trying to feed itself after a Com
195 Post contains links zckls04 : Which figures show beggars in Hong Kong make a "good living"? Which figures show there is zero absolute poverty in Hong Kong? The only figure you see
196 Post contains images RomeoBravo : Where are your figures that say they don't, and why are you putting words in my mouth? There's no such thing as a wage race to the bottom, we've been
197 zckls04 : I thought you preferred figures to anecdotes. Or is that only when they support your case? We've been through it and you have failed to show it's the
198 Post contains links RomeoBravo : There's a difference between figures and studies. The youth unemployment figures for the UK are very high: 21% - that's not an anecdote. Nor is the w
199 Post contains links zckls04 : And therein lies the problem- you believe perfect competition is a real thing as opposed to a teaching tool. It is rarely, if ever, observed in the r
200 RomeoBravo : No i don't. I just don't see why perfect competition would favour the employer at the expense of the employee. Politicians don't have perfect informa
201 zckls04 : We are talking about what happens in the real world, so I don't care about what happens in a theoretical fantasy land, when that fantasy land cannot
202 Post contains links and images RomeoBravo : If you read what you quoted you'd realise that I'm not talking about fantasy land either, and it's odd that you've ignored that and just regurgitatio
203 zckls04 : Evidently I misunderstood you. Perhaps you could elaborate on: I did my best to figure out what you were driving at, but it seems I failed. It is Fri
204 seb146 : But that's just it: We are propping up the Chinese and Indians in the name of American patriotism. American companies are shipping jobs to China and
205 BMI727 : We're not propping them up in the name of anything. The Chinese and Indians (and Koreans and Japanese before that) are pulling themselves up by becom
206 RomeoBravo : It's simple, as i explained in my previous post, the minimum wage exists within an environment of imperfect competition too - if it can solves certai
207 Post contains links zckls04 : Why would it be? It's not good enough for you to just have a "feeling" that the real-world market couldn't suit the minimum wage. You have shown that
208 Post contains images flyguy89 : I suppose that's why the Soviet Union was just a hotbed for creativity and innovation and why China has been able to make such great technical stride
209 Post contains links and images RomeoBravo : And exactly how many stable monopsony markets are there in the unskilled labour sector? Maybe a village with a single shop. Something like that. Mono
210 seb146 : ummm.... what? The right has controlled the House for a majority of years. If you knew the Constitution at all, you would know it is the House that s
211 BMI727 : If you think that's why unemployment is high and the national deficit is large then you have much to learn about economics. Welfare checks are welfar
212 flyguy89 : The House doesn't run and enforce education protocols, that's the purview of the Department of Education which is chocked full of Leftist bureaucrats
213 Post contains links zckls04 : The same number as are in perfect competition- zero. The point is that the market doesn't have to be one extreme or the other; it is a sliding scale
214 RomeoBravo : I'm not playing the semantics game. The point you made concerned graph A not B. You said it with your very words and you cannot deny that. I'm going
215 Ken777 : Where do you find "perfect competition" in this world? It simply doesn't work because it would need perfect people to function. And people of equal i
216 seb146 : Who's leaders are appointed by the president. Unions have zero to do with the actual education of our children. Except that they get pay and benefits
217 Post contains images zckls04 : I used the word "negligible". Nobody would claim this word was synonymous with "not noticeable" unless they did not understand the English language.
218 flyguy89 : ...but not the hords of mid and upper level bureaucrats. They do when they protect and promote bad teachers and raucously oppose ANY type of reform (
219 RomeoBravo : You have not done anything of the sorts.You are are doing anything in your power to deny there is a link and i'm frankly embarrassed for you. Good da
220 NASCARAirforce : At least the Dilbert CEO took a 33% pay cut Are you kidding? $20,000 doesn't even fuel AF 1, not to mention other operating costs, the C-17 to ship h
221 Post contains images Superfly : If he was sincere about making a 'shared sacrifice', him and his family wouldn't have gone on Spring Break. Instead he should have send his wife in k
222 Post contains links NASCARAirforce : Average CEO gets fired after a couple years if his company continues to take a loss - usually in the millions, maybe billions if you are a giant comp
223 Post contains images Superfly : George W Bush and Barack Hussein Obama are the two worst Presidents back to back. People have a hard time understanding that it's possible to equally
224 NASCARAirforce : I agree with you there. Bush started the raging inferno, Obama isn't putting it out - he is just throwing more kindling on top. People thought I was
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